February 25, 2025 • 27 mins
The Complex Needs Conference 2025 on March 26-27 in Melbourne is co-hosted by ermha365 and ACSO – Australian Community Support Organisation. The conference is funded by the Victorian Government’s Department of Families, Fairness and Housing.
Both ermha365 and ACSO deliver the pilot program Assertive Outreach and Support on behalf of the DFFH. This service is for people with complex needs who are experiencing significant service barriers.
Our guest is Associate Professor, Dr Armon Tamatea who will deliver the closing keynote address at the conference - ‘We must remember, these people’s history follows them’: Maori, marginality and the Complex Needs of Gang Communities in Aotearoa New Zealand.
Armon is a clinical psychologist and the Director of clinical psychology training at the School of Psychology at the University of Waikato in the North Island.
ermha365 provides mental health and disability support for people in Victoria and the Northern Territory. Find out more about our services at our website.
Helplines (Australia):
Lifeline 13 11 14
QLIFE 1800 184 527
13 YARN 13 92 76
Suicide Callback Service 1300 659 467
ermha365 acknowledges that our work in the community takes place on the Traditional Lands of many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples and therefore respectfully recognise their Elders, past and present, and the ongoing Custodianship of the Land and Water by all Members of these Communities.
We recognise people with lived experience who contribute to GET REAL podcast, and those who love, support and care for them. We recognise their strength, courage and unique perspective as a vital contribution so that we can learn, grow and achieve better outcomes together.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Get Real is recorded on the unceded lands of the Boon
, wurrung and Wurundjeri peoplesof the Kulin Nation.
We acknowledge and pay ourrespects to their elders, past
and present.
We also acknowledge that theFirst Peoples of Australia are
the first storytellers, thefirst artists and the first
creators of culture, and wecelebrate their enduring
(00:21):
connections to country,knowledge and stories.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to Get Real talking mental health and
disability brought to you by theteam at Irma 365.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Join our hosts, emily Webb and Carenza Louis-Smith,
as we have frank and fearlessconversations with special
guests about all things mentalhealth and complexity all things
mental health and complexity.
We recognise people with livedexperience of mental ill health
and disability, as well as theirfamilies and carers.
We recognise their strength,courage and unique perspective
(00:56):
as a vital contribution to thispodcast so we can learn, grow
and achieve better outcomestogether grow and achieve better
outcomes together.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
We talk a lot about issues around risk, but we don't
really talk about potentials.
Complex needs, certainly, butcomplex potentials is maybe the
other side of that coin.
You know, what are the waysforward?
Moving beyond notions of youknow, for example care, into
notions of thriving, for example.
And what role do our systemshave to play in not just making
sure people don't return to thesystem, but also that they can
flourish?
Speaker 5 (01:32):
Welcome to Get Real talking mental health and
disability.
I'm Emily Webb.
Irma 365 CEO CorenzaLouis-Smith is here too, and we
are very excited to be speakingabout the upcoming Complex Needs
Conference 2025, which ishappening on March 26 to 27 in
Melbourne.
Irma 365 is co -hosting thisAustralia First Conference with
(01:56):
AXO, australian CommunitySupport Organisation.
The conference is funded by theVictorian Government's
Department of Families, fairnessand Housing, known as DFFH in
shorthand.
So how this came about is thatboth IRMA 365 and AXO deliver
the pilot program AssertiveOutreach and Support on behalf
(02:17):
of the DFFH.
This service is for people withcomplex needs and are
experiencing significant servicebarriers.
The two key components of theAOS program are the delivery of
assertive outreach and casemanagement support.
Referrals come from Victoria'sMultiple and Complex Needs
Initiative, known as MACNI.
(02:38):
So, before we introduce ourguest Carenza, what are the
complex needs in the context ofthe work we and AXO do with AOS
and the intention of theconference?
Speaker 6 (02:51):
Good morning, em.
Yes, look, I think we arereally excited, irma and AXO, to
be co-hosting the Complex NeedsConference.
We're two organisations notmany in Australia actually that
focus wholly and solely onworking with people who have
complex needs.
So, when you think aboutcomplex needs, we work with
people who experience issueslike mental health challenges,
(03:13):
often harmful use of substance,behaviour that can lead to risk
to themselves and others,offending, homelessness, trauma
and disability, and sometimesall of those things might be
happening and intersecting insomeone's life at the same time.
So you know, I guess, as experts, I think Irma and Axel are
described as Australian expertsin this space, really pioneering
(03:35):
and leading the way to thinkabout better ways that we can do
this work, and so we werethrilled to be asked to co-host
the Complex Needs Conference, asyou said, funded by DFFH, the
Victorian government, in March.
The theme is making it work,overcoming barriers and
simplifying support for peoplewith complex needs, and we think
that's really important.
(03:56):
The aim for us is to provide aplatform for people who come to
the conference presenters andparticipants, audience members,
members to share ideas, forgepartnerships and to think about
new approaches and ways that wecan support people who have
complex needs.
So that's the aim and, yeah,we're very, very excited about
it.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
Well, I am really pumped for this conversation
with our guest who is one of thekeynote speakers at the Complex
Needs Conference.
Who is one of the keynotespeakers at the Complex Needs
Conference?
We are grateful to have sometime with Associate Professor Dr
Amon Tamatea, who is speakingwith us from Aotearoa, new
Zealand.
Amon is a clinical psychologistand the Director of Clinical
(04:38):
Psychology Training at theSchool of Psychology.
There's a lot of psychologiesthere At the University of
Waikato in the North Island.
His work and expertise are inthe assessment and treatment of
men with histories of violentand sexually harmful behaviour,
and this work has significantlycontributed to the design and
implementation of anexperimental prison-based
(05:00):
violence prevention program forhigh-risk prisoners diagnosed
with psychopathy.
Amon is also the project leadfor a very exciting project, na
Tumana Kotanga, turning the Tideon Prison Violence.
The Maori word means hope oraspiration, which I really love,
(05:23):
and this is a government-fundedresearch program that aims to
understand and reduce prisonviolence in New Zealand.
There's so much more, but wewant to hear from Armin, so
thank you so much for your timeWell thank you for having me.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
It's lovely to be here with you today and to have
a korero have a conversationwith you.
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
So, armin, first of all, I'm sure you get asked to
do a lot of speaking engagementsand conferences all over the
world, so what made you want toparticipate in this Complex
Needs Conference in Melbournecoming up?
Speaker 4 (05:51):
When I heard about the Complex Needs Conference.
Well, when I was invited to theComplex Needs Conference, as
far as I'm concerned, anyorganisation, any group that
wants to improve the lot of folkwho are largely disenfranchised
or disempowered is worthsupporting and getting behind,
particularly our vulnerablepeople and who often are at an
intersection in terms of poverty, crime, racism, other
(06:13):
discriminations and socialdisadvantages.
The Co-Papa the agenda is greatand really looks like a great
thing to support.
So I'm really proud to beinvited very humble, actually to
be invited and support theevent.
Speaker 6 (06:29):
Thanks, amon, and, as Am said, your work and research
is intriguing.
You know I can't wait to hearyou at the conference.
I'm really really lookingforward to your keynote, and the
topic of men and violenceprevention initiatives and
supports is really a hot topichere in Australia right now, and
I'm really interested how didyou come into this area of
psychology and decide tospecialize in it?
I guess it's not something foreveryone, right?
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Well, yeah, that's exactly right.
I kind of fell into the area byaccident and, if you'll
entertain me for a moment, Imean, like a lot of people who
get into psychology broadly,we're often driven by curiosity
and, for those who move into thehelping professions, we're
often driven by a desire tocreate positive change for
people.
So behaviour change andpsychotherapy were real strong
interests of mine when I wasbeing trained as a clinical
(07:11):
psychologist.
We were just sent out into thefield and I was sent to a prison
.
I had no experience of a prisonoutside of multiple viewings of
Shawshank Redemption, which wasnot a good sales pitch for
prison work, but it was veryeye-opening.
I learned a lot, particularlybecause I started in a youth
prison.
When we used to have those herein New Zealand, some of my best
teachers were young men who weresomehow trying to make the most
(07:34):
of what were really quitetragic situations that were
legacies of trauma,intergenerational trauma that go
back a long time in thosefamilies and, of course, the
reasons that brought them tothose, those spaces, those
prison spaces.
It was also very tragic as well, and to try and understand what
those contexts are was a hugelearning for me and certainly
(07:55):
challenged my own preconceivedideas as a lot of us hold, I
guess, at one point or another,about how and why people engage
in these sort of behaviors, butalso what those contexts are
about.
I just never looked back.
The area I kind of wanted tomove into initially was actually
psychosis.
Don't ask me why.
I've got no personal or familyexperience of that.
Maybe it was something I pickedup in a lecture.
(08:15):
But after one day at a youthprison I thought this is me and
the next 24 or 25 years has kindof been where I've.
That's been my space.
Speaker 6 (08:23):
It's interesting, isn't it, when you talk about
when you first walk into aprison.
I remember the first time Iwent into a women's prison and
what blew my mind was all of theopportunities that existed in
this prison.
So there was a bakery in thisprison, the women could learn a
trade and there was educationclasses.
When I talked to the women, thebit that was I kind of broke my
(08:43):
heart actually, I'm on was thatlife inside the prison gave
them more opportunities than thelife they had outside, and in
some ways, prison was saferBefore them.
They had a roof over their head, a bed, access to mental health
services all of these differentthings, education, employment,
programs and yet when they leftjail, kind of you know, on that
day, you know off, you go.
(09:03):
Here's your bag, black bin bagor something filled with
whatever you had.
Maybe there's someone to pickyou up, Maybe there's not.
Not, maybe you're kind of goingto homelessness.
That's what, you know, reallydrew me to this work as well.
You know what you're saying,because in my mind that was
something that we had to changeand had to be different like.
Life outside of prison hassurely got to be better.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
We have to give people better opportunities than
lives we give people in prisonyes, yes, I agree, and I I guess
the challenge for whether we'retalking government agencies
like our corrections departments, for example, or NGOs or
charitable organisations whowork with folk who are justice
involved is not only aboutsupporting people in their own
decision making, but alsosupporting their autonomy, their
(09:44):
agency and also their dignity.
Correctional system here,probably like most
industrialised countries, isvery stigmatising experiences
and how people manage thatvaries, of course, and how
communities support peoplecoming through varies.
We're actually a reasonablypunitive country here in New
Zealand, so we don't seem to betoo forgiving of how people have
come through the system.
There's a broad kind ofcultural norm here.
(10:04):
That's something that I'dcertainly like to see changed,
because we talk a lot aboutissues around risk, of
dangerousness, but we don'treally talk about potentials,
you know, and complex needs.
Certainly, even that notion, Ithink, is very much hand in hand
with people who are justiceinvolved, but complex potentials
is maybe the other side of thatcoin.
You know, what are the waysforward?
(10:24):
Moving beyond notions of, youknow, for example, care, into
notions of thriving, for example, and what role do our systems
have to play in not just makingsure people don't return to the
system, but also that they canflourish.
And I think that's a whole newconversation, especially here in
New Zealand, to really kind ofconsider moving beyond just a
sort of a broad model of carebut towards this idea of
(10:45):
thriving.
How can we get the most ofpeople being through the system?
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Your keynote at the conference is called we Must
Remember these People'sHistories.
Follow them Maori Marginalityand the Complex Needs of Gang
Communities in Aotearoa.
Of course, people will need tocome to the conference to hear
this, but could you give us alittle bit of insight into your
clinical experience and researchfor this topic?
(11:09):
And also, what are traditionalNew Zealand gang communities and
what are the complexities andbarriers for this group of
people?
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Yeah, so just very briefly.
So I'm a clinical psychologistby training.
I developed as a correctionpsychologist here in New Zealand
.
I worked for the department for10 years before joining the
dark side of academia and duringthat journey with the
department I had an opportunityto develop as a researcher and
one of the early projects I wasinvolved in was a question that
(11:40):
we'd been as psychologists wewere trying to work through,
actually not just aspsychologists as a department
was.
Gangs and risk were kind ofalways in the same sentence.
But we did know an awful lotabout these groups, these
communities, let alone how towork in a way that was safe and
effective, particularly aroundrisk to community but also risk
within community.
(12:00):
So long story short, I askedthe question how do people leave
these groups?
Because we didn't know that andthe position the department had
at the time I'm going back tothe 2000s here was to try and
extract people from from theirgang memberships.
The department's moved to adifferent place.
Now I don't know if that hadanything to do with the work I
did, but certainly the questionI was asking was how did people
leave?
Because we didn't know.
(12:21):
We know that some people didn't,perhaps couldn't, leave gang
communities.
One because of that maybe theyknew too much, or probably more
likely reason is loyalty deep,deep, deep loyalty.
And also in New Zealand, gangsaren't just a young person's
game, they're kind of a lifespandevelopment game.
Here in New Zealand we havegang members in their 50s and
60s.
Actually, if you go back farenough, there's some who are
(12:44):
still alive, probably in their80s now.
So a lot of people in thiscountry who are gang members are
members for life, quiteliterally.
It's not uncommon in theprisons to run into gang members
in their 30s and 40s.
The literature tells us thatthis is largely kind of an
adolescent thing and maybethere's something to be said
about how people enter gangsaround adolescence.
But in New Zealand it's often alifetime deal.
But, that being said, somepeople leave and there's a
(13:13):
variety of ways they do leave,and so that was a kind of a way
forward to try and thinkdifferently about how we, as
psychologists who come from aparticular mode of operating,
work with people from gangcommunities who also come from a
very different mode ofoperating, and how we can
somehow come to terms with thatin a way that would firstly
reduce recidivism, which was themission of the department, but
in a way that was what we callmana enhancing, which is
maintaining dignity but alsowriting choices and supporting
(13:33):
positive choices for people inthe community.
So that's where this wholejourney started with me and I
suppose, if anything, one thingI've tried to really challenge
is this idea of seeing gangs assolely, or even largely,
criminal organisations.
Don't get me wrong, many of ourgang communities are heavily
crime involved.
We can't ignore that.
But many are not, and there'sbeen a number of groups,
sometimes in their totality,have been trying to turn that
(13:55):
ship around by doing morepositive things, if not in the
community, at least for theirown community.
So talking about gangs ascommunities is not so much to
whitewash or to soft soap thenotions or the ideas or the
issues, but rather to thinkabout communities and the rules
about communities, howcommunities operate.
And to me personally as aresearcher and a clinician and
just as a human being, I'vefound that a much more
(14:16):
insightful way, for me at least,to think differently about
these groups.
They don't all think about crime.
They don't all think aboutcrime 24 and 7.
Often people are involved incommunity activities, sports
activities, perhaps anythingthat the rest of us might do to
one degree or another.
But there's also there's otherelements and dimension to the
(14:38):
lives of many members that isobviously quite secretive and
there's other kind of elementsthere, some of which of course
feeds into criminal lifestyles,but there's quite a complex
array of stuff.
So the more I've looked intothis like anything else and this
will sound like a cliche butthe more I learn, the less I
know.
And again, I'm also an outsider.
Which is the probably mostimportant thing to say here is
(15:00):
that I'm certainly no expert atall on gang communities.
I guess I've been a guest fromtime to time, I've been a
witness, I guess, in terms ofgang communities from time to
time and opportunities to havesit downs with gang members
across the country from time totime.
But I'm certainly no expert,but often, I guess, seen as an
academic or a clinical friend, Iguess, for a number of the
(15:21):
communities around the country.
Speaker 6 (15:24):
And I'm really, really looking to that keynote.
I think it's really topical, asI said at the start, in terms
of some of the challenges we'refacing here right now in
Australia, and you know, newZealand always seems to me to be
at the forefront of innovation,research and community
initiatives in heaps of areas,and I'm curious are there
research and programsinternationally for First
(15:44):
Nations peoples or groups withinprisons that have had any
crossover with your work, or doyou think that this is something
that New Zealand is reallyleading on?
Speaker 4 (15:54):
I guess that's a good question.
I'm a believer that everythingconnects, and certainly in the
Indigenous world, particularlywith the Indigenous research
community, which tend to be verycommunity-oriented.
Very little of what I do I wouldeven consider to be remotely
original, but often part of abroader tradition of thinking
about how indigenous communities, especially Marduk communities,
engage.
So an example of internationalwork would be a close colleague
(16:18):
of mine, associate ProfessorBobby Henry from University of
Saskatchewan.
He's Métis and he's beenworking in, I guess, what he
would call street gang researchin the Calgary, alberta area for
many years, and survivance hasbeen a notion that he's been
kind of developing how peoplenavigate through systems,
especially systems that aredesigned not to help facilitate
positive change or to supportcommunities that are
(16:39):
disenfranchised and marginalized, so dealing with vulnerable
people, albeit those that maybemake other people vulnerable but
are also caught up in theseintersections that you sort of
mentioned before and the, Iguess, the hard consequences
that those lifestyles and thosecircumstances bring for people.
So I've certainly been shapedby thinking from overseas and
(16:59):
probably the work of Bobby Henrywould be some of the most
impactful work for my ownthinking in this area.
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
You will also speak about the importance of
culturally accountablephilosophy of care and
indigenous ways of being when itcomes to broadly speaking
community services.
What we're talking aboutlinking up care services.
What does this look like on theground?
Speaker 4 (17:24):
I guess it's mostly thinking about what the
principles of that might looklike and again, coming from an
indigenous mode of operating andthis isn't my model, by the way
but this is a set of principlesI often use as a kind of a
compass when thinking aboutthese issues, especially with
how governments ornon-government organisations,
community organisations or evencommunities actually kind of
operate and interact, especiallywith people that they set up to
(17:45):
serve or to support or tofacilitate in positive actions,
for example.
So the principles I sort ofthink of especially is around
coming from a place of respect,so being inclusive, engaging in
dialogue and I think we've seenin recent world politics where
dialogue is not kind of thego-to in many instances, but
that's a really important partis people speaking on a level
(18:06):
playing field around what theirconcerns are for them, but also
that people being heard I guessat the end of the day and I
think, as Marty, we haven'tcornered the market on that I
think that's a fairly universalmarker of respect that people
are acknowledged and people arebeing heard, but also that their
needs are kind of considered,at least as part of the overall
package, in terms of howservices are constructed and
also what kind of services aredelivered and how practices are
(18:28):
practiced and so forth.
So so what kind of servicesdelivered and how practices
practice and so forth.
So respect relevance, of course, that's the services, the aim
of the services.
What the services deliver isactually relevant to the needs
of the community or communitymembers being responsible for
those relationships.
So these aren't widgets to becounted but actually
relationships to be engaged withand that there are the points
(18:49):
of connection.
Connectiveness is reallyimportant for people generally,
but it's a real marker forIndigenous communities, arguably
around the world, whererelationality and how people
relate.
Arguably early social mediacould almost go back to early
models of Indigenous ways ofrelating in some respects,
because that's often how theworld is kind of navigated is
through relationships and who'sconnected with who and so forth.
And I guess, fourthly, it'saround reciprocity.
(19:12):
This is really important forresearchers and particularly to
not fly in, take data anddisappear, need to be heard from
again, but there's actually agiving back to those communities
.
So any research, any servicereally needs to be benefiting
the people on whom A the setupis served, but also on whom data
, information, wisdom, knowledgehas been taken from as well.
So this could look like avariety of things, depending on
(19:34):
the nature of the service.
Obviously, a lot of my time isspent with correctional services
, which are notoriouslyworldwide of course I certainly
wouldn't say New Zealand arealone in this but also, being
quite concrete, quite unyielding.
So building in spaces offlexibility, spaces of
conversation, inviting people tobe part of their own process of
whether we're talkingrehabilitation care, thriving as
the case may be is arguably adifferent set of agendas than
(19:58):
maybe what's traditionally beenobserved in those particular
spaces.
So thinking differently aboutleaning into the culture and
finding the solutions withincommunities and within folkways,
how culture informs how peopleare organised and how the
universe is organised and puttogether, I think are really
important ways of thinking whichare hard to do from a top-down
(20:18):
policy position where there's novoice from the ground, from
below.
Speaker 6 (20:23):
I also would love to talk about your research as well
, which is aiming to understandand reduce prison violence too.
So that's brilliant.
That's pretty huge.
How did this come about?
You know?
What was it that drove you tothink this is the thing that I
really want to delve into and domore about, and understand and
try and inform how then, perhapsyou know, things are created
(20:43):
and done differently.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Well, to be fair, going back to what we were
talking about before around howeverything connects, it was
actually conversations with anumber of gang families gang
whānau that sparked this piece.
So it actually started I feelashamed to say this.
It actually started off as abit of a gang profile piece
initially who's who in the zoo,kind of thing but then it sort
of struck me that actually noone will benefit from that work.
That's just counting red headsagainst blue heads against brown
(21:09):
heads against black heads.
You know, really it's aboutsafety and those were the
priorities.
So that was a piece of work.
This, that the work I'm thatyou're referring to, was
actually driven by and heavilyinformed by, communities, and I
say this with no jokes.
But our gang communities areprobably some of the biggest
stakeholders of our prisonsystem here in new zealand
because their people are thereconstantly around the clock and,
(21:30):
uh, some could say that prisonsare probably the most richest
recruiting grounds for our gangcommunities and, to be fair,
there's probably some truth tothat.
But they're also one of thegreat extractors of taking
people out of the community,especially from gang communities
, into those spaces.
So there's some real complexdynamics here.
The view I kind of take is moreof a and I'm an amateur
ecologist really so it's kind ofzooming out more, because I
(21:52):
came from a model which is verytypical, I guess, of
correctional models, especiallyin English-speaking countries,
of focusing on individuals andindividual needs, and that's
important.
So I'm taking nothing away fromthat.
But when we look at context ofviolence it often requires
zooming out.
So what's going on in thesetting?
What role does a physicalenvironment have to play here?
For example, we have ageographer on our team who took
(22:14):
some aerial shots of a number ofthe units and we looked at the
dispersion of violence indifferent spaces.
And in some units they werehappening in cells and wide open
courtyards where everyone couldsee what was going on, but in
other units it was happening inlittle hidey holes where there
was very low visibility, forinstance.
So even space informs and thelayout of a place can inform
where violence occurs.
(22:35):
But also understanding theculture.
So when we look at like anylike, whether we're talking
police data or prison data, wecan look at the number of
incidents over a period of time.
That tells a story, certainly,but there's a lot of stories
that are obscured by thosenumbers as well.
So understanding what thefolkways are, the motivations,
the rhythms and flows, howprison communities if I can use
(22:56):
that phrase for a moment howthey roll and they're not the
same everywhere.
High security places operatemuch differently from a prison
culture point of view than, say,lower security, more open kind
of spaces do, and understandingwhat that's about, what's
allowed to happen in thosespaces, so to speak, what's not
versus these other spaces,understanding those rules,
because often it's the prisonerbody that regulate that, not
(23:19):
just the staff or let aloneregulations.
And then you zoom out againLegislation has a role to play.
Policy has a role to play.
Regimes have a role to play.
Even public opinion has a roleto play.
Public opinion of courseinforms policy, ultimately, and
policies inform legislation,which of course informs what's
permissible and what's not, howpeople can be treated and with
(23:41):
what rationale.
So all these things connect.
And so to me and I know thissounds kind of off the wall, but
thinking about thingsecologically there are
complexities, there are, andit's more about the
relationships between thosethings than just the factors,
because I guess I come from atradition of identifying factors
and seeing how they apply to aperson, but it's the connections
, arguably, between thosefactors that are perhaps more
(24:03):
meaningful and insights they canprovide in terms of, in the
prison sense, what canfacilitate safer spaces or maybe
what can compromise safetywithin those spaces.
Speaker 6 (24:13):
I think the way that you describe that makes so much
sense, and that's how I think Iwould see things here.
You know, all of those thingsplay a huge part, and the media
as well.
I think what we wanted toachieve at this conference is
you know what's actually working, what are the things that we're
seeing on the ground that aredifferent, the way that we're
tackling things differently,doing things differently,
approaching things differentlyand I think that's what I'm
(24:34):
really excited about when itcomes to your keynote, because I
think your research shows someof that the thinking that you
have and the knowledge that youhave about gangs and how gangs
operate and work, but also someof the things in New Zealand
that you've done to change someof that, and I think it's going
to be really interesting to hearthat.
So I think there's a lot thatwe can learn here in Australia
from some of the things thatyou're doing, amon.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
No pressure, but that's true.
Speaker 6 (24:57):
Yeah no pressure.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
No pressure at all.
We want you to solve this, Amon, and we want the politicians to
be listening.
Speaker 6 (25:05):
Look, I've really enjoyed the conversation, amon.
I think I could chat to you forhours about some of the things
that you know you're doing, andI think there's a lot for us to
learn.
And I think what really strikesme is you're right.
You know complex needs arecomplex, they're not easy to
solve, they're not easy toresolve.
The intergenerational nature,you know break.
How do you actually break thatcycle?
What are the points, what arethe ways that you can do that?
(25:25):
I think you pose some reallygood questions and I think there
, you know, hopefully there arethings that you're learning that
you can share with us, that wecan put into play here, I think
in Australia.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
Yeah, and we're really looking forward to
meeting you in Melbourne at theconference.
And likewise, yeah, it'd begreat, and, as we come to the
end of this discussion and youknow, a little teaser for the
conference, so if people arelistening, we want you to book.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Do you have any final thoughts or anything that we
didn't ask you that you want toshare?
Just a couple of quick ones, ifthat's okay, I guess in keeping
with the theme of our kōrero,our discussion here, as well as
the one to come in Melbournelater on.
I think leaning into it andappreciating complexity, for me
personally has actually been ahuge learning From my discipline
of psychology.
We have a long history oftrying to reduce complexity, and
there's reasons for thatbecause we aspire to be
scientific and that's whatthat's about.
(26:14):
But at the end of the day weend up with a fragmented way of
seeing the universe.
I think so, by embracing andleaning into complexity gets us
away from oversimplifying theissues and, by extension,
oversimplifying proposedsolutions.
So I think complexity issomething that needs to be
contended to on its own terms.
The real world doesn't reallygive a toss about our theories.
The real world is going to keepon doing what it's going to
keep on doing.
It's up to us to kind of meetit on its own terms would be my
(26:36):
view, and I guess the otherthing is the journey's rather
volatile times are in now, sothat we should let us continue
to be kind to each other andshow compassion.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
That's a really great point and that's a really great
point to end.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
Huge thanks to Dr Amon Tamatea for joining us for
this episode.
Thank you for having me.
It's been a real joy.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
Thank you.
It's been such a privilege forus and there's information in
the show notes so you can checkout the awesome program for the
Complex Needs Conference.
There are more than 70 sessions, including panel discussions,
presentations, amon's keynoteand lived experience
conversations what is currentlyhappening in the space, what's
(27:16):
working and what's not.
It's going to be great and booknow get on it.
We will also have links to findout more about Amon's work in
the show notes.
Thanks very much for listeningand we look forward to seeing
some of you at the Complex NeedsConference.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
You've been listening to Get Real talking mental
health and disability, broughtto you by the team at Irma 365.
Get Real is produced andpresented by Emily Webb, with
Corenza Louis-Smith and specialguests.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
Get Real is recorded on the unceded lands of the Boon
, wurrung and Wurundjeri peoplesof the Kulin Nation.
We acknowledge and pay ourrespects to their elders, past
and present.
We also acknowledge that theFirst Peoples of Australia are
the first storytellers, thefirst artists and the first
creators of culture, and wecelebrate their enduring
(00:21):
connections to country,knowledge and stories.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to Get Real talking mental health and
disability brought to you by theteam at Irma 365.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Join our hosts, emily Webb and Carenza Louis-Smith,
as we have frank and fearlessconversations with special
guests about all things mentalhealth and complexity all things
mental health and complexity.
We recognise people with livedexperience of mental ill health
and disability, as well as theirfamilies and carers.
We recognise their strength,courage and unique perspective
(00:56):
as a vital contribution to thispodcast so we can learn, grow
and achieve better outcomestogether grow and achieve better
outcomes together.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
We talk a lot about issues around risk, but we don't
really talk about potentials.
Complex needs, certainly, butcomplex potentials is maybe the
other side of that coin.
You know, what are the waysforward?
Moving beyond notions of youknow, for example care, into
notions of thriving, for example.
And what role do our systemshave to play in not just making
sure people don't return to thesystem, but also that they can
flourish?
Speaker 5 (01:32):
Welcome to Get Real talking mental health and
disability.
I'm Emily Webb.
Irma 365 CEO CorenzaLouis-Smith is here too, and we
are very excited to be speakingabout the upcoming Complex Needs
Conference 2025, which ishappening on March 26 to 27 in
Melbourne.
Irma 365 is co -hosting thisAustralia First Conference with
(01:56):
AXO, australian CommunitySupport Organisation.
The conference is funded by theVictorian Government's
Department of Families, fairnessand Housing, known as DFFH in
shorthand.
So how this came about is thatboth IRMA 365 and AXO deliver
the pilot program AssertiveOutreach and Support on behalf
(02:17):
of the DFFH.
This service is for people withcomplex needs and are
experiencing significant servicebarriers.
The two key components of theAOS program are the delivery of
assertive outreach and casemanagement support.
Referrals come from Victoria'sMultiple and Complex Needs
Initiative, known as MACNI.
(02:38):
So, before we introduce ourguest Carenza, what are the
complex needs in the context ofthe work we and AXO do with AOS
and the intention of theconference?
Speaker 6 (02:51):
Good morning, em.
Yes, look, I think we arereally excited, irma and AXO, to
be co-hosting the Complex NeedsConference.
We're two organisations notmany in Australia actually that
focus wholly and solely onworking with people who have
complex needs.
So, when you think aboutcomplex needs, we work with
people who experience issueslike mental health challenges,
(03:13):
often harmful use of substance,behaviour that can lead to risk
to themselves and others,offending, homelessness, trauma
and disability, and sometimesall of those things might be
happening and intersecting insomeone's life at the same time.
So you know, I guess, as experts, I think Irma and Axel are
described as Australian expertsin this space, really pioneering
(03:35):
and leading the way to thinkabout better ways that we can do
this work, and so we werethrilled to be asked to co-host
the Complex Needs Conference, asyou said, funded by DFFH, the
Victorian government, in March.
The theme is making it work,overcoming barriers and
simplifying support for peoplewith complex needs, and we think
that's really important.
(03:56):
The aim for us is to provide aplatform for people who come to
the conference presenters andparticipants, audience members,
members to share ideas, forgepartnerships and to think about
new approaches and ways that wecan support people who have
complex needs.
So that's the aim and, yeah,we're very, very excited about
it.
Speaker 5 (04:16):
Well, I am really pumped for this conversation
with our guest who is one of thekeynote speakers at the Complex
Needs Conference.
Who is one of the keynotespeakers at the Complex Needs
Conference?
We are grateful to have sometime with Associate Professor Dr
Amon Tamatea, who is speakingwith us from Aotearoa, new
Zealand.
Amon is a clinical psychologistand the Director of Clinical
(04:38):
Psychology Training at theSchool of Psychology.
There's a lot of psychologiesthere At the University of
Waikato in the North Island.
His work and expertise are inthe assessment and treatment of
men with histories of violentand sexually harmful behaviour,
and this work has significantlycontributed to the design and
implementation of anexperimental prison-based
(05:00):
violence prevention program forhigh-risk prisoners diagnosed
with psychopathy.
Amon is also the project leadfor a very exciting project, na
Tumana Kotanga, turning the Tideon Prison Violence.
The Maori word means hope oraspiration, which I really love,
(05:23):
and this is a government-fundedresearch program that aims to
understand and reduce prisonviolence in New Zealand.
There's so much more, but wewant to hear from Armin, so
thank you so much for your timeWell thank you for having me.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
It's lovely to be here with you today and to have
a korero have a conversationwith you.
Thank you.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
So, armin, first of all, I'm sure you get asked to
do a lot of speaking engagementsand conferences all over the
world, so what made you want toparticipate in this Complex
Needs Conference in Melbournecoming up?
Speaker 4 (05:51):
When I heard about the Complex Needs Conference.
Well, when I was invited to theComplex Needs Conference, as
far as I'm concerned, anyorganisation, any group that
wants to improve the lot of folkwho are largely disenfranchised
or disempowered is worthsupporting and getting behind,
particularly our vulnerablepeople and who often are at an
intersection in terms of poverty, crime, racism, other
(06:13):
discriminations and socialdisadvantages.
The Co-Papa the agenda is greatand really looks like a great
thing to support.
So I'm really proud to beinvited very humble, actually to
be invited and support theevent.
Speaker 6 (06:29):
Thanks, amon, and, as Am said, your work and research
is intriguing.
You know I can't wait to hearyou at the conference.
I'm really really lookingforward to your keynote, and the
topic of men and violenceprevention initiatives and
supports is really a hot topichere in Australia right now, and
I'm really interested how didyou come into this area of
psychology and decide tospecialize in it?
I guess it's not something foreveryone, right?
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Well, yeah, that's exactly right.
I kind of fell into the area byaccident and, if you'll
entertain me for a moment, Imean, like a lot of people who
get into psychology broadly,we're often driven by curiosity
and, for those who move into thehelping professions, we're
often driven by a desire tocreate positive change for
people.
So behaviour change andpsychotherapy were real strong
interests of mine when I wasbeing trained as a clinical
(07:11):
psychologist.
We were just sent out into thefield and I was sent to a prison
.
I had no experience of a prisonoutside of multiple viewings of
Shawshank Redemption, which wasnot a good sales pitch for
prison work, but it was veryeye-opening.
I learned a lot, particularlybecause I started in a youth
prison.
When we used to have those herein New Zealand, some of my best
teachers were young men who weresomehow trying to make the most
(07:34):
of what were really quitetragic situations that were
legacies of trauma,intergenerational trauma that go
back a long time in thosefamilies and, of course, the
reasons that brought them tothose, those spaces, those
prison spaces.
It was also very tragic as well, and to try and understand what
those contexts are was a hugelearning for me and certainly
(07:55):
challenged my own preconceivedideas as a lot of us hold, I
guess, at one point or another,about how and why people engage
in these sort of behaviors, butalso what those contexts are
about.
I just never looked back.
The area I kind of wanted tomove into initially was actually
psychosis.
Don't ask me why.
I've got no personal or familyexperience of that.
Maybe it was something I pickedup in a lecture.
(08:15):
But after one day at a youthprison I thought this is me and
the next 24 or 25 years has kindof been where I've.
That's been my space.
Speaker 6 (08:23):
It's interesting, isn't it, when you talk about
when you first walk into aprison.
I remember the first time Iwent into a women's prison and
what blew my mind was all of theopportunities that existed in
this prison.
So there was a bakery in thisprison, the women could learn a
trade and there was educationclasses.
When I talked to the women, thebit that was I kind of broke my
(08:43):
heart actually, I'm on was thatlife inside the prison gave
them more opportunities than thelife they had outside, and in
some ways, prison was saferBefore them.
They had a roof over their head, a bed, access to mental health
services all of these differentthings, education, employment,
programs and yet when they leftjail, kind of you know, on that
day, you know off, you go.
(09:03):
Here's your bag, black bin bagor something filled with
whatever you had.
Maybe there's someone to pickyou up, Maybe there's not.
Not, maybe you're kind of goingto homelessness.
That's what, you know, reallydrew me to this work as well.
You know what you're saying,because in my mind that was
something that we had to changeand had to be different like.
Life outside of prison hassurely got to be better.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
We have to give people better opportunities than
lives we give people in prisonyes, yes, I agree, and I I guess
the challenge for whether we'retalking government agencies
like our corrections departments, for example, or NGOs or
charitable organisations whowork with folk who are justice
involved is not only aboutsupporting people in their own
decision making, but alsosupporting their autonomy, their
(09:44):
agency and also their dignity.
Correctional system here,probably like most
industrialised countries, isvery stigmatising experiences
and how people manage thatvaries, of course, and how
communities support peoplecoming through varies.
We're actually a reasonablypunitive country here in New
Zealand, so we don't seem to betoo forgiving of how people have
come through the system.
There's a broad kind ofcultural norm here.
(10:04):
That's something that I'dcertainly like to see changed,
because we talk a lot aboutissues around risk, of
dangerousness, but we don'treally talk about potentials,
you know, and complex needs.
Certainly, even that notion, Ithink, is very much hand in hand
with people who are justiceinvolved, but complex potentials
is maybe the other side of thatcoin.
You know, what are the waysforward?
(10:24):
Moving beyond notions of, youknow, for example, care, into
notions of thriving, for example, and what role do our systems
have to play in not just makingsure people don't return to the
system, but also that they canflourish.
And I think that's a whole newconversation, especially here in
New Zealand, to really kind ofconsider moving beyond just a
sort of a broad model of carebut towards this idea of
(10:45):
thriving.
How can we get the most ofpeople being through the system?
Speaker 5 (10:49):
Your keynote at the conference is called we Must
Remember these People'sHistories.
Follow them Maori Marginalityand the Complex Needs of Gang
Communities in Aotearoa.
Of course, people will need tocome to the conference to hear
this, but could you give us alittle bit of insight into your
clinical experience and researchfor this topic?
(11:09):
And also, what are traditionalNew Zealand gang communities and
what are the complexities andbarriers for this group of
people?
Speaker 4 (11:19):
Yeah, so just very briefly.
So I'm a clinical psychologistby training.
I developed as a correctionpsychologist here in New Zealand
.
I worked for the department for10 years before joining the
dark side of academia and duringthat journey with the
department I had an opportunityto develop as a researcher and
one of the early projects I wasinvolved in was a question that
(11:40):
we'd been as psychologists wewere trying to work through,
actually not just aspsychologists as a department
was.
Gangs and risk were kind ofalways in the same sentence.
But we did know an awful lotabout these groups, these
communities, let alone how towork in a way that was safe and
effective, particularly aroundrisk to community but also risk
within community.
(12:00):
So long story short, I askedthe question how do people leave
these groups?
Because we didn't know that andthe position the department had
at the time I'm going back tothe 2000s here was to try and
extract people from from theirgang memberships.
The department's moved to adifferent place.
Now I don't know if that hadanything to do with the work I
did, but certainly the questionI was asking was how did people
leave?
Because we didn't know.
(12:21):
We know that some people didn't,perhaps couldn't, leave gang
communities.
One because of that maybe theyknew too much, or probably more
likely reason is loyalty deep,deep, deep loyalty.
And also in New Zealand, gangsaren't just a young person's
game, they're kind of a lifespandevelopment game.
Here in New Zealand we havegang members in their 50s and
60s.
Actually, if you go back farenough, there's some who are
(12:44):
still alive, probably in their80s now.
So a lot of people in thiscountry who are gang members are
members for life, quiteliterally.
It's not uncommon in theprisons to run into gang members
in their 30s and 40s.
The literature tells us thatthis is largely kind of an
adolescent thing and maybethere's something to be said
about how people enter gangsaround adolescence.
But in New Zealand it's often alifetime deal.
But, that being said, somepeople leave and there's a
(13:13):
variety of ways they do leave,and so that was a kind of a way
forward to try and thinkdifferently about how we, as
psychologists who come from aparticular mode of operating,
work with people from gangcommunities who also come from a
very different mode ofoperating, and how we can
somehow come to terms with thatin a way that would firstly
reduce recidivism, which was themission of the department, but
in a way that was what we callmana enhancing, which is
maintaining dignity but alsowriting choices and supporting
(13:33):
positive choices for people inthe community.
So that's where this wholejourney started with me and I
suppose, if anything, one thingI've tried to really challenge
is this idea of seeing gangs assolely, or even largely,
criminal organisations.
Don't get me wrong, many of ourgang communities are heavily
crime involved.
We can't ignore that.
But many are not, and there'sbeen a number of groups,
sometimes in their totality,have been trying to turn that
(13:55):
ship around by doing morepositive things, if not in the
community, at least for theirown community.
So talking about gangs ascommunities is not so much to
whitewash or to soft soap thenotions or the ideas or the
issues, but rather to thinkabout communities and the rules
about communities, howcommunities operate.
And to me personally as aresearcher and a clinician and
just as a human being, I'vefound that a much more
(14:16):
insightful way, for me at least,to think differently about
these groups.
They don't all think about crime.
They don't all think aboutcrime 24 and 7.
Often people are involved incommunity activities, sports
activities, perhaps anythingthat the rest of us might do to
one degree or another.
But there's also there's otherelements and dimension to the
(14:38):
lives of many members that isobviously quite secretive and
there's other kind of elementsthere, some of which of course
feeds into criminal lifestyles,but there's quite a complex
array of stuff.
So the more I've looked intothis like anything else and this
will sound like a cliche butthe more I learn, the less I
know.
And again, I'm also an outsider.
Which is the probably mostimportant thing to say here is
(15:00):
that I'm certainly no expert atall on gang communities.
I guess I've been a guest fromtime to time, I've been a
witness, I guess, in terms ofgang communities from time to
time and opportunities to havesit downs with gang members
across the country from time totime.
But I'm certainly no expert,but often, I guess, seen as an
academic or a clinical friend, Iguess, for a number of the
(15:21):
communities around the country.
Speaker 6 (15:24):
And I'm really, really looking to that keynote.
I think it's really topical, asI said at the start, in terms
of some of the challenges we'refacing here right now in
Australia, and you know, newZealand always seems to me to be
at the forefront of innovation,research and community
initiatives in heaps of areas,and I'm curious are there
research and programsinternationally for First
(15:44):
Nations peoples or groups withinprisons that have had any
crossover with your work, or doyou think that this is something
that New Zealand is reallyleading on?
Speaker 4 (15:54):
I guess that's a good question.
I'm a believer that everythingconnects, and certainly in the
Indigenous world, particularlywith the Indigenous research
community, which tend to be verycommunity-oriented.
Very little of what I do I wouldeven consider to be remotely
original, but often part of abroader tradition of thinking
about how indigenous communities, especially Marduk communities,
engage.
So an example of internationalwork would be a close colleague
(16:18):
of mine, associate ProfessorBobby Henry from University of
Saskatchewan.
He's Métis and he's beenworking in, I guess, what he
would call street gang researchin the Calgary, alberta area for
many years, and survivance hasbeen a notion that he's been
kind of developing how peoplenavigate through systems,
especially systems that aredesigned not to help facilitate
positive change or to supportcommunities that are
(16:39):
disenfranchised and marginalized, so dealing with vulnerable
people, albeit those that maybemake other people vulnerable but
are also caught up in theseintersections that you sort of
mentioned before and the, Iguess, the hard consequences
that those lifestyles and thosecircumstances bring for people.
So I've certainly been shapedby thinking from overseas and
(16:59):
probably the work of Bobby Henrywould be some of the most
impactful work for my ownthinking in this area.
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
You will also speak about the importance of
culturally accountablephilosophy of care and
indigenous ways of being when itcomes to broadly speaking
community services.
What we're talking aboutlinking up care services.
What does this look like on theground?
Speaker 4 (17:24):
I guess it's mostly thinking about what the
principles of that might looklike and again, coming from an
indigenous mode of operating andthis isn't my model, by the way
but this is a set of principlesI often use as a kind of a
compass when thinking aboutthese issues, especially with
how governments ornon-government organisations,
community organisations or evencommunities actually kind of
operate and interact, especiallywith people that they set up to
(17:45):
serve or to support or tofacilitate in positive actions,
for example.
So the principles I sort ofthink of especially is around
coming from a place of respect,so being inclusive, engaging in
dialogue and I think we've seenin recent world politics where
dialogue is not kind of thego-to in many instances, but
that's a really important partis people speaking on a level
(18:06):
playing field around what theirconcerns are for them, but also
that people being heard I guessat the end of the day and I
think, as Marty, we haven'tcornered the market on that I
think that's a fairly universalmarker of respect that people
are acknowledged and people arebeing heard, but also that their
needs are kind of considered,at least as part of the overall
package, in terms of howservices are constructed and
also what kind of services aredelivered and how practices are
(18:28):
practiced and so forth.
So so what kind of servicesdelivered and how practices
practice and so forth.
So respect relevance, of course, that's the services, the aim
of the services.
What the services deliver isactually relevant to the needs
of the community or communitymembers being responsible for
those relationships.
So these aren't widgets to becounted but actually
relationships to be engaged withand that there are the points
(18:49):
of connection.
Connectiveness is reallyimportant for people generally,
but it's a real marker forIndigenous communities, arguably
around the world, whererelationality and how people
relate.
Arguably early social mediacould almost go back to early
models of Indigenous ways ofrelating in some respects,
because that's often how theworld is kind of navigated is
through relationships and who'sconnected with who and so forth.
And I guess, fourthly, it'saround reciprocity.
(19:12):
This is really important forresearchers and particularly to
not fly in, take data anddisappear, need to be heard from
again, but there's actually agiving back to those communities
.
So any research, any servicereally needs to be benefiting
the people on whom A the setupis served, but also on whom data
, information, wisdom, knowledgehas been taken from as well.
So this could look like avariety of things, depending on
(19:34):
the nature of the service.
Obviously, a lot of my time isspent with correctional services
, which are notoriouslyworldwide of course I certainly
wouldn't say New Zealand arealone in this but also, being
quite concrete, quite unyielding.
So building in spaces offlexibility, spaces of
conversation, inviting people tobe part of their own process of
whether we're talkingrehabilitation care, thriving as
the case may be is arguably adifferent set of agendas than
(19:58):
maybe what's traditionally beenobserved in those particular
spaces.
So thinking differently aboutleaning into the culture and
finding the solutions withincommunities and within folkways,
how culture informs how peopleare organised and how the
universe is organised and puttogether, I think are really
important ways of thinking whichare hard to do from a top-down
(20:18):
policy position where there's novoice from the ground, from
below.
Speaker 6 (20:23):
I also would love to talk about your research as well
, which is aiming to understandand reduce prison violence too.
So that's brilliant.
That's pretty huge.
How did this come about?
You know?
What was it that drove you tothink this is the thing that I
really want to delve into and domore about, and understand and
try and inform how then, perhapsyou know, things are created
(20:43):
and done differently.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
Well, to be fair, going back to what we were
talking about before around howeverything connects, it was
actually conversations with anumber of gang families gang
whānau that sparked this piece.
So it actually started I feelashamed to say this.
It actually started off as abit of a gang profile piece
initially who's who in the zoo,kind of thing but then it sort
of struck me that actually noone will benefit from that work.
That's just counting red headsagainst blue heads against brown
(21:09):
heads against black heads.
You know, really it's aboutsafety and those were the
priorities.
So that was a piece of work.
This, that the work I'm thatyou're referring to, was
actually driven by and heavilyinformed by, communities, and I
say this with no jokes.
But our gang communities areprobably some of the biggest
stakeholders of our prisonsystem here in new zealand
because their people are thereconstantly around the clock and,
(21:30):
uh, some could say that prisonsare probably the most richest
recruiting grounds for our gangcommunities and, to be fair,
there's probably some truth tothat.
But they're also one of thegreat extractors of taking
people out of the community,especially from gang communities
, into those spaces.
So there's some real complexdynamics here.
The view I kind of take is moreof a and I'm an amateur
ecologist really so it's kind ofzooming out more, because I
(21:52):
came from a model which is verytypical, I guess, of
correctional models, especiallyin English-speaking countries,
of focusing on individuals andindividual needs, and that's
important.
So I'm taking nothing away fromthat.
But when we look at context ofviolence it often requires
zooming out.
So what's going on in thesetting?
What role does a physicalenvironment have to play here?
For example, we have ageographer on our team who took
(22:14):
some aerial shots of a number ofthe units and we looked at the
dispersion of violence indifferent spaces.
And in some units they werehappening in cells and wide open
courtyards where everyone couldsee what was going on, but in
other units it was happening inlittle hidey holes where there
was very low visibility, forinstance.
So even space informs and thelayout of a place can inform
where violence occurs.
(22:35):
But also understanding theculture.
So when we look at like anylike, whether we're talking
police data or prison data, wecan look at the number of
incidents over a period of time.
That tells a story, certainly,but there's a lot of stories
that are obscured by thosenumbers as well.
So understanding what thefolkways are, the motivations,
the rhythms and flows, howprison communities if I can use
(22:56):
that phrase for a moment howthey roll and they're not the
same everywhere.
High security places operatemuch differently from a prison
culture point of view than, say,lower security, more open kind
of spaces do, and understandingwhat that's about, what's
allowed to happen in thosespaces, so to speak, what's not
versus these other spaces,understanding those rules,
because often it's the prisonerbody that regulate that, not
(23:19):
just the staff or let aloneregulations.
And then you zoom out againLegislation has a role to play.
Policy has a role to play.
Regimes have a role to play.
Even public opinion has a roleto play.
Public opinion of courseinforms policy, ultimately, and
policies inform legislation,which of course informs what's
permissible and what's not, howpeople can be treated and with
(23:41):
what rationale.
So all these things connect.
And so to me and I know thissounds kind of off the wall, but
thinking about thingsecologically there are
complexities, there are, andit's more about the
relationships between thosethings than just the factors,
because I guess I come from atradition of identifying factors
and seeing how they apply to aperson, but it's the connections
, arguably, between thosefactors that are perhaps more
(24:03):
meaningful and insights they canprovide in terms of, in the
prison sense, what canfacilitate safer spaces or maybe
what can compromise safetywithin those spaces.
Speaker 6 (24:13):
I think the way that you describe that makes so much
sense, and that's how I think Iwould see things here.
You know, all of those thingsplay a huge part, and the media
as well.
I think what we wanted toachieve at this conference is
you know what's actually working, what are the things that we're
seeing on the ground that aredifferent, the way that we're
tackling things differently,doing things differently,
approaching things differentlyand I think that's what I'm
(24:34):
really excited about when itcomes to your keynote, because I
think your research shows someof that the thinking that you
have and the knowledge that youhave about gangs and how gangs
operate and work, but also someof the things in New Zealand
that you've done to change someof that, and I think it's going
to be really interesting to hearthat.
So I think there's a lot thatwe can learn here in Australia
from some of the things thatyou're doing, amon.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
No pressure, but that's true.
Speaker 6 (24:57):
Yeah no pressure.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
No pressure at all.
We want you to solve this, Amon, and we want the politicians to
be listening.
Speaker 6 (25:05):
Look, I've really enjoyed the conversation, amon.
I think I could chat to you forhours about some of the things
that you know you're doing, andI think there's a lot for us to
learn.
And I think what really strikesme is you're right.
You know complex needs arecomplex, they're not easy to
solve, they're not easy toresolve.
The intergenerational nature,you know break.
How do you actually break thatcycle?
What are the points, what arethe ways that you can do that?
(25:25):
I think you pose some reallygood questions and I think there
, you know, hopefully there arethings that you're learning that
you can share with us, that wecan put into play here, I think
in Australia.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
Yeah, and we're really looking forward to
meeting you in Melbourne at theconference.
And likewise, yeah, it'd begreat, and, as we come to the
end of this discussion and youknow, a little teaser for the
conference, so if people arelistening, we want you to book.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Do you have any final thoughts or anything that we
didn't ask you that you want toshare?
Just a couple of quick ones, ifthat's okay, I guess in keeping
with the theme of our kōrero,our discussion here, as well as
the one to come in Melbournelater on.
I think leaning into it andappreciating complexity, for me
personally has actually been ahuge learning From my discipline
of psychology.
We have a long history oftrying to reduce complexity, and
there's reasons for thatbecause we aspire to be
scientific and that's whatthat's about.
(26:14):
But at the end of the day weend up with a fragmented way of
seeing the universe.
I think so, by embracing andleaning into complexity gets us
away from oversimplifying theissues and, by extension,
oversimplifying proposedsolutions.
So I think complexity issomething that needs to be
contended to on its own terms.
The real world doesn't reallygive a toss about our theories.
The real world is going to keepon doing what it's going to
keep on doing.
It's up to us to kind of meetit on its own terms would be my
(26:36):
view, and I guess the otherthing is the journey's rather
volatile times are in now, sothat we should let us continue
to be kind to each other andshow compassion.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
That's a really great point and that's a really great
point to end.
Speaker 4 (26:53):
Huge thanks to Dr Amon Tamatea for joining us for
this episode.
Thank you for having me.
It's been a real joy.
Speaker 5 (26:55):
Thank you.
It's been such a privilege forus and there's information in
the show notes so you can checkout the awesome program for the
Complex Needs Conference.
There are more than 70 sessions, including panel discussions,
presentations, amon's keynoteand lived experience
conversations what is currentlyhappening in the space, what's
(27:16):
working and what's not.
It's going to be great and booknow get on it.
We will also have links to findout more about Amon's work in
the show notes.
Thanks very much for listeningand we look forward to seeing
some of you at the Complex NeedsConference.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
You've been listening to Get Real talking mental
health and disability, broughtto you by the team at Irma 365.
Get Real is produced andpresented by Emily Webb, with
Corenza Louis-Smith and specialguests.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
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