June 18, 2025 • 33 mins
The basis for this conversation is an important pilot service in Victoria called Assertive Outreach and Support (AOS), funded by the Department of Families, Fairness and Housing under its Multiple and Complex Needs Initiative.
ermha365 and ACSO Australia deliver the service in parts of Melbourne and regional Victoria.
Our guests for this episode are Cassandra Turnbull from ermha365 and Psychiatrist Dr Debra Wood, from Clarity Healthcare, who provides clinical governance for the team.
As well as hearing about why there is a need for this program, you'll also hear about what it takes to work in this space and Cass and Debra's experiences.
We recorded this at the Complex Needs Conference in March 2025.
ermha365 provides mental health and disability support for people in Victoria and the Northern Territory. Find out more about our services at our website.
Helplines (Australia):
Lifeline 13 11 14
QLIFE 1800 184 527
13 YARN 13 92 76
Suicide Callback Service 1300 659 467
ermha365 acknowledges that our work in the community takes place on the Traditional Lands of many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples and therefore respectfully recognise their Elders, past and present, and the ongoing Custodianship of the Land and Water by all Members of these Communities.
We recognise people with lived experience who contribute to GET REAL podcast, and those who love, support and care for them. We recognise their strength, courage and unique perspective as a vital contribution so that we can learn, grow and achieve better outcomes together.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael (00:00):
Get Real is recorded on the unceded lands of the Boon
, Wurrung and Wurundjeri peoplesof the Kulin Nation.
We acknowledge and pay ourrespects to their elders, past
and present.
We also acknowledge that theFirst Peoples of Australia are
the first storytellers, thefirst artists and the first
creators of culture and wecelebrate their enduring
(00:21):
connections to country.
Knowledge and stories celebratetheir enduring connections to
country knowledge and stories.
David (00:28):
Welcome to Get Real talking.
Mental health and disabilitybrought to you by the team at
Burma 365.
Cass Turnbull (00:34):
Join our hosts, Emily Webb and Carenza
Louis-Smith, as we have frankand fearless conversations with
special guests about all thingsmental health and complexity
with special guests about allthings mental health and
complexity.
Casey (00:49):
We recognise people with lived experience of mental ill
health and disability, as wellas their families and carers.
We recognise their strength,courage and unique perspective
as a vital contribution to thispodcast so we can learn, grow
and achieve better outcomestogether.
Cass Turnbull (01:12):
It's in everyone's best interest,
including the community, tosupport and build people's
capacity to be able to engagewith not just the service system
but society.
We're working with people thatsit in a corridor between the
justice system and the mentalhealth system.
Dr Debra Wood (01:30):
I'm very focused on how can we tweak this system
of supports, or should-besupports, around this person to
go the next little step towardsperhaps getting them housing,
mitigating their risk in orderthat they can go to a
supermarket, stabilising theNDIS supports around them.
Emily Webb (01:54):
Welcome to Get Real talking mental health and
disability.
I'm Emily Webb.
This episode is aboutsupporting people who experience
significant barriers toaccessing services for their
daily living.
The basis for this conversationis an important pilot service
in Victoria called AssertiveOutreach and Support, funded by
(02:17):
the Department of Families,Fairness and Housing under its
Multiple and Complex NeedsInitiative.
Irma 365 and ACSO Australiadeliver the service in parts of
Melbourne and regional Victoria.
Our guests for this episode areCassandra Turnbull from Irma
365 and psychiatrist Dr DebraWood from Clarity Health care,
(02:39):
who provides clinical governancefor the team.
As well as hearing about whythere is a need for this program
, you'll also hear about what ittakes to work in this space and
Cass and Debra's experiences.
We recorded this conversation atthe Complex Needs Conference in
March this year.
We're at the Complex NeedsConference in Melbourne.
(03:02):
It's day two, the conference issold out and there's some
awesome energy here.
Cass, Debra, welcome to GetReal podcast.
Thank you so much for your time.
What have been some of thehighlights of the conference for
you both so far?
Cass, you were here yesterday.
What have you thought about it?
Cass Turnbull (03:22):
It's been such a busy but inspiring day and a
half.
So far it's been fantastic.
Emily Webb (03:29):
And you did a panel about assertive outreach support
yesterday.
How did that go?
Cass Turnbull (03:33):
Yes, we did so.
Together with our colleaguesfrom DFFH and AXO, we talked
through the journey of an AOSclient to really illustrate who
an AOS client is and what itlooks like on the ground,
supporting them day to day.
And Deborah.
Emily Webb (03:49):
I know you've just arrived, but what do you think
so far?
Dr Debra Wood (03:53):
Yeah, I had the privilege of attending the panel
this morning chaired by JohnFain and where the conversation
was around Indigenous culturalsafety, so it blew my mind.
The conversation was aroundIndigenous cultural safety, so
it blew my mind.
Eminent speakers, I am touchedby the kind of personal nature
of the conference and I notice,even within the attendees
(04:20):
there's a vibe that I've notfelt at other conferences where
there's usually a sense ofticking a box.
You know, I get the real sensethat this is a real energy.
Emily Webb (04:24):
Yeah, I think the energy's been pretty great.
A lot of people have beencommenting about it.
So this conference came to befrom the work that Irma 365 and
AXO Australia is doing in thecomplex needs space.
The Assertive Outreach SupportService, which we call AOS, is a
pilot funded by Victoria'sDepartment of Families, Fairness
(04:45):
and Housing, DIFA or DFFH, andworks with people who are
referred to the program by theMultiple and Complex Needs
Initiative.
Cass and Deborah, let's findout about you both before we
talk about AOS and your workwith Irma365's team.
Cass, tell us about your work.
I'm always interested in howpeople come to work in the
(05:06):
mental health sector.
You've been with Irma for awhile now.
Cass Turnbull (05:09):
So I have been with Irma for just over 10 years
now.
I started off, funnily enough,in a pilot program supporting
people who were frequentpresenting to emergency
departments and experiencingchronic homelessness.
That really ignited a passionfor a highly vulnerable cohort.
I was early on in my career andfrom then on it really
(05:31):
progressed from there.
Emily Webb (05:34):
And Debra, can you tell us about your practice as a
psychiatrist doctor and yourspecialisations?
Dr Debra Wood (05:41):
I'm what they call, in the field a dabbler.
I'm what they call in the fielda dabbler, trained firstly as a
psychiatrist and I ended upworking in the forensic area.
So I was six years workingmostly in maximum security
prisons, and then had a careerand midlife crisis retrained as
an emergency medicine physician,and I suffered burnout, mostly
(06:02):
through workplace violence, andso for the last two years I've
gone back to my roots and I'mback doing psychiatry, but my
passion is in psychotherapy, butI can't help but feel that
there but for some good fortune,I might have gone as well.
I was homeless in my teens andI can't get out of my mind
(06:27):
either a conversation I had witha mum of a young 18-year-old
who had schizophrenia.
This is going back more than 20years and she said it's like a
living death.
This young man, who was thisgorgeous, gregarious A-grade
student, had very severeschizophrenia and was about to
become homeless and I thoughtyou know, we could all be that
(06:49):
person.
We could all be that mum.
Emily Webb (06:52):
Debra, can I ask?
You said you were homeless inyour teens.
What happened then, where youfollowed the educational pathway
that you did?
Well, this was back in the daywhere universities were free.
I had been singled out by thestate school system as one of
those quote unquote gifted kids,and so everybody said you
(07:16):
should do medicine, and I wasaccelerated through school.
But I thought that gets me aprofession.
It gets me a guaranteed incomeand a guaranteed profession, and
so I.
It wasn't probably what Ishould have done, but it's what
I did for pragmatic reasons, andthe first three years of my
degree were paid for by thegovernment, and then I had to
work and put myself through therest.
(07:38):
That's some going and it's really powerful.
What you said about, yeah, butfor the you know fortune or
what's the saying?
The grace of God, I mean, youknow, I'm just saying that
because that's what you hear,but yeah, it's like any of us
could have that happen if thereweren't certain circumstances.
Yeah, I think being at theconference really highlights
that for me, that there's justso much going on in people's
(08:01):
lives.
Cass, can you give us anoverview of how AOS came to be
and the intention of the program?
Cass Turnbull (08:09):
So AOS kicked off in July 2023 as a 12-month
pilot, then was extended in itspilot form, and what AOS is
really aiming to do is to engagepeople who are deemed an
unacceptable risk to community,as well as experiencing
significant service gaps, sothey're highly disengaged from
(08:31):
the service system and often, asDeb said earlier, experiencing
potential multiple diagnoses andchallenges that prevent them
from engaging with the servicesystem that they so desperately
need.
So our aim is to really, yes,bring the service system and the
(08:51):
client together.
So often it's building thecapacity of the service system
around the person to respond ina meaningful way, as well as
having the person feel heard andunderstood, and that timing as
well correct timing to be ableto deliver supports when needed
is really important.
Emily Webb (09:10):
And you explained a bit about who the people are
that access AOS or are referredto AOS.
Can you go a bit?
What would someone in the AOSprogram?
What would be happening forthem?
I guess I know that everyone'sdifferent.
Nothing would be the same.
So, cass, I'll ask you first,and then Deborah, I'd like to
(09:32):
get your thoughts because youwork with the AOS program and
we'll talk a bit more about that.
Cass Turnbull (09:39):
AOS work with people who have come in frequent
contact with the criminaljustice system.
They often have substance usedisorders as well, and not in
all cases, and the way that canimpact people really varies from
person to person.
Often they are transient aswell, so often experiencing
(10:02):
chronic homelessness, and Ithink it's really important to
say, whilst there are people inour community that experience a
lot of those complex issues, alot of the people that we
support actually the majority ofthem have service-wide bans
because the service system isexhausted from being able to
respond or they're deemed toohigh risk, which further
(10:24):
prevents them to engage with thesupport they need.
Emily Webb (10:29):
Debra, you work with the ermha team doing the AOS
program and it's a goodcollaboration.
How did you come to be workingwith the team and what is it
that you support them with?
Dr Debra Wood (10:43):
So I work with Clarity Healthcare as a
psychiatrist in North Fitzroyand Irma had approached Davis
Lemke, who's our CEO, about someclinical governance or clinical
supervision, and I think Ihappened to be in the corridor
at the right time.
There are only threepsychiatrists there, one of whom
(11:04):
has a great deal of experienceworking with a homeless team in
London, but he was happy for meto participate in this as a
pilot.
I think I have experience inforensic, in drug and alcohol
emergency services.
I've done some administrativepsychiatry and worked for mental
health review boards andtribunals, so I think I'm the
(11:25):
hack who's dabbled.
I've done some administrativepsychiatry and worked for mental
health review boards andtribunals, so I think I'm the
hack who's dabbled in lots ofdifferent areas, and that
mirrors some of the servicesystems that our clients are
involved with.
Emily Webb (11:35):
And Cass what's been the great benefit of having
Debra on the team.
Cass Turnbull (11:41):
It's been quite significant in so many positive
ways.
That benefits not only thestaff, the wellbeing of the
staff and the practice of all ofour AOS practitioners, but also
the outcomes of the people wesupport.
I think Deb is a great fit forAOS and Irma and all the
experience that you bring tothat space.
(12:02):
So I think it's also thatclinical lens with the
day-to-day that can be reallypractical.
So we meet with Deb twice aweek and staff will bring the
people we support and some ofthe challenges that we're
experiencing to really put it onthe table and get Deb's
recommendations and advice andoften support just around the
(12:23):
day-to-day work.
Emily Webb (12:25):
And with the people that AOS supports.
And at this conference we'veheard a lot of stories about
really great practice, some ofthe challenges, innovative
thinking and people who are atthis conference.
They want better for peoplewith complex needs, they want
systems to work better.
They want more recognition ofhow complex it is to work with
(12:51):
complex needs.
But in the general communitythere's really not a lot of
goodwill for the people that sayAOS would support the cohort
that we work with in this space.
And we hear it from media,politicians on social media,
that a lot of the time peoplewith complex needs should be
(13:13):
given nothing like no sympathy.
Who cares?
I'm just pricing that, lockthem up, get tougher, and we're
seeing that happen with baillaws and things like that.
I want to unpack this morebecause it's not just about
helping the individual.
There's a bigger picture.
Deb, I'd like your thoughtsfirst, because you've worked in
(13:33):
prisons.
You've worked in prisons,you've worked in public
hospitals, in emergencydepartments.
You've pretty much seen it all.
Dr Debra Wood (13:44):
What are your thoughts about that?
I can sympathise with thegeneral public who are seeing
episodes of violence orunacceptable kind of public
behaviour, for example,exposures or verbal abuse.
I don't believe that the lockthem up, give them nothing.
Strategy works, because I'veworked in prison and they do
eventually come out.
(14:04):
So the way that I view thisspace is that the community is
also our client.
We have the client who's beenreferred to Irma In my mind.
Our clients are that personalso, and the general public and
the services that areinteracting with them, which
includes emergency services suchas police and ambulance.
(14:25):
It includes Centrelink, housing, council, child protection.
All of these services that ourclients are needing to interact
with are also our clients in myview, and so I don't hold a view
that we just, you know, sendthem on a trip to Hollywood if
that's what they feel like.
It's not like that.
You know, what the personthinks they want isn't always
(14:47):
what they get.
Sometimes they don't get itbecause they should get it and
it would make a difference.
Sometimes they don't get itbecause they should get it and
it would make a difference.
Sometimes they don't get itbecause that's just not how the
world works and Cass.
Emily Webb (14:59):
What about your thoughts about that?
Because I guess, working in themental health space and with
the people that you do, you'vegot a passion for it.
You know the public opinion andcommunity sentiment can play a
role in how you're able tosupport people.
So what are your thoughts?
Cass Turnbull (15:19):
I think it's really important that I touched
on it earlier just aroundhearing somebody and tailoring
the support to someone's lifeand what their experience is.
We all want to feel heard heard.
That doesn't change for someoneexperiencing complex needs or
if they're, you know they'regoing through a tough time.
I would also agree with deb interms of it's in everyone's best
(15:43):
interest, including thecommunity, to support and build
people's capacity to be able toengage with not just the service
system but society.
We're working with people thatsit in a corridor between the
justice system and the mentalhealth system and they don't
quite fit any box, and norshould we.
We shouldn't fit into a box,but they do.
(16:05):
They sit in this corridor thatis unsupported and it's in
everyone's best interest to beable to build capacity for this
cohort to contribute to societyin a meaningful, positive way
and engage in life and what thatlooks like for them.
Dr Debra Wood (16:23):
The other thing I'd add to that, emily, is that
it's in the interest of all ofthe services that service all of
us Centrelink, banks,supermarkets that this group is
catered to, because this is theone person who ruins your day.
If you're a GP receptionist, ifyou're a council worker, this
(16:43):
is the person that comes in andmakes you not want to come back
to work tomorrow.
If we can actually provideservices for this group, support
them in you know there's amyriad of ideas we have around
that then that makes it betterfor everyone, including the
regular service systems.
Emily Webb (17:03):
Deborah, I want to go back to something you
mentioned earlier that you'dretrained in emergency medicine,
which is amazing, but you leftbecause of burnout due to
workplace violence.
So you know what you're talkingabout here and what you said is
really powerful.
Do you want to add anythingabout that?
Dr Debra Wood (17:21):
I once said to one of my senior nurse
colleagues in emergency who wasbuilt like the proverbial, like
a very big unit, and I said tohim do you what?
I felt safer working in prisonthan I do working here?
We tolerate worse behaviour inthis emergency department than I
ever saw tolerated in prison,and his eyes popped.
(17:43):
And so I think in services thatare front facing, that are
public facing, particularly ifwe're talking about social
services, there's a lot thatgets tolerated and I think it's
a bit like you know the boilingfrog it gets incrementally worse
each year.
And I think there's a culturewithin services which is a bit
(18:07):
like we were talking withcultural safety.
That's a bit tokenistic.
It's like, oh, if we put amassage chair out the back, if
we give you a yoga ticket, if weteach you square breathing,
then you should be able to copewith this, Like what's wrong
with you, and the implicitmessage is that it's the worker
that's the problem.
You should be able to toleratethis and I push back very
(18:28):
strongly against that.
Emily Webb (18:31):
Now, thanks for sharing that.
I think about workplace safetyand workplace violence a lot
since working at Irma 365, butalso I've got daughters,
teenagers, who both work incustomer service jobs.
Both have worked at awell-known fast food
establishment and the older onehas worked at a supermarket for
(18:53):
a couple of years now and someof the stuff that happens there
is pretty scary.
And these are usually no one'solder than like 19 who is on
shift.
Dr Debra Wood (19:05):
So, for example and Cass is a better person to
speak of specifics but sometimespeople go into Centrelink
offices and they totally losetheir proverbial because they
came in yesterday and they weretold to come back today and
whatever was supposed to happenisn't happening and so they lose
it and it's incrediblydistressing for the person, the
(19:30):
staff, the other people who arewitnessing that.
And sometimes it's as simple,as you know if we had a worker
go in who established beforehandthat that thing wasn't
available, then we can avoid allof that.
We can say, well, tell us whenit is available and we'll bring
this person back for anappointment rather than have it
go unchecked.
(19:50):
It's just a simple example ofhow you know, tailoring services
to this particular group canavoid a lot of grief yeah,
sometimes it's obviously thebehavior is not great, but why
is the behaviour happening?
Emily Webb (20:07):
Are the systems?
Are the structures notsupporting a best outcome?
I guess is what I'm trying tosay, and it's always blame the
person or blame the worker, asyou said.
Deborah, you're right.
Cass Turnbull (20:21):
There is always a why.
I think it's really importantto acknowledge this is really
difficult work and at timesthere can be potential for quite
high-risk situations.
But it's important toacknowledge that and here at
Irma we genuinely walk the talksafety first, last and always.
(20:42):
But it's important toacknowledge that and we've been
very fortunate to be able to putadditional supports in place
for the psychological safety ofour staff.
That includes consultationswith Dr Deb that their
occupational violence is not totolerate.
Being sworn at and calling itfor what it is.
(21:03):
It's occupational violence.
It's not ohs, it's not whs, andwhat I mean by that is
simplifying it into an acronym,because it can be really serious
.
It can affect someone'slong-term mental well-being.
We have a responsibility to ourstaff to ensure their safety,
but not minimizing.
Minimising that it'sacknowledging.
(21:25):
It's there so we can put instrategies to help mitigate and
manage but, importantly, supportthe staff.
They're human beings and it'sreally important to put that on
the table.
Emily Webb (21:36):
Yeah, I think that's really important.
I mean, the staff are amazing,but they're not superhuman, are
they?
It's not like Teflon, it's justtake it, it take it and and
yeah, irma's done some reallyinteresting work in this space
where we're challenging theideas about workplace violence.
Oh, it's part of the job, oryou know, I don't want to report
(21:57):
it, I don't want the client toget in trouble.
It's been a really interestingpiece and I want to move on
further from that, because youdid say, this work is hard and
frustrating, heartbreaking,probably also satisfying.
But how do you both hold outhope for the work that you do?
And, deborah, I want to go backto something that we talked
(22:21):
about when we were discussingdoing this podcast.
You know know about bringingawareness to some of the
challenges within this work thatis not spoken about, and also
sustaining the workforce.
So, yeah, could you talk aboutthat please?
Dr Debra Wood (22:36):
In terms of hope, because I'm not a front face
worker for Irma, I'm doing aclinical supervision role and so
I think that makes it a loteasier for me.
And the way that I think aboutit is what is the next little
step?
So I'm very focused on how canwe tweak this system of supports
(22:58):
or should be supports aroundthis person to go the next
little step towards perhapsgetting them housing, mitigating
their risk in order that theycan go to a supermarket,
stabilising the NDIS supportsaround them.
So my focus is very much juston the next little step and it's
(23:19):
quite process focused ratherthan outcome focused.
The other things I think thatare on the periphery is an
awareness, but not necessarilyspoken about is that not every
client is going to have a goodoutcome.
A, b.
Sometimes a person might end upback in prison and we don't
(23:40):
necessarily regard that as acatastrophic failure.
Sometimes and I'm not trying tobe an advocate for
incarceration, but what I'msaying is that sometimes that is
the only service that canstabilise somebody enough, keep
the public safe enough in orderfor us to have a chance to
engage with the person such thatnext time when they're out we
(24:01):
have a chance of having adifferent outcome, and that's
the controversial thing for meto say.
We're supposed to say prison istoxic, it's irrevocably bad,
it's always a bad outcome.
So I guess what I'm saying is Iconsider the community to be
one of our clients and we have acriminal justice system for a
reason.
Emily Webb (24:21):
Cass, what about you ?
It's tough, but how do you, Iguess, hold out hope for the
work that you do, sustain theworkforce but also balance that
being realistic about what youdo?
Cass Turnbull (24:36):
Being able to work collaboratively in what can
be a really complex servicesystem to navigate is really
important.
But, as Deb said as well,sometimes prison court provides
us a safe place for our staff togo in, get in front of somebody
and start to build that rapport, and it's those little glimmers
(24:58):
of not going into prison, butthose little glimmers of being
able to engage somebody in a waythat's meaningful for them.
These are people that extremelydistrustful of the service
system, are often traumatised bythe service system, and we're
providing a service to help, tosupport them in a life that's
(25:18):
meaningful for them.
So I think, by holding out hope, I think it's focusing on what
the purpose of the work is andwhat we're aiming to do.
But the reality is we're notgoing to have extraordinarily
positive outcomes for everybody.
But that doesn't stop us fromtrying, because the benefits are
huge for the community but alsothe individual.
Dr Debra Wood (25:42):
The only thing I would add to that and it's kind
of taking the conversation a bitsideways is the idea of
complexity.
I was struck by cass's commentearlier in the conversation
about the services that a personso desperately needs, and I was
thinking the person themselvesprobably doesn't think they
(26:04):
desperately need them in fact,any at all.
So we somehow need to find away of bridging this gap between
what the social system providesincluding a service such as
Irma to try and link people inand what a person feels that
they need in order to live ascast so eloquently put a
(26:24):
fulfilling life, which I thinkis really what we're hoping for,
and I think that's a space thatneeds a whole lot more research
and conversation.
Emily Webb (26:33):
For this podcast.
Corenza and I will often askour guests what works for them
looking after their ownwellbeing, their own mental
health.
So what do you both do to fillyour cup?
Take care of yourself.
Just get a bit of respite.
Cass, I'll start with you howdo you take care of you?
Cass Turnbull (26:57):
It's a really important question to pose, I
think, to everybody in thesector, but also just-being in
general and what you actually do, but with intent behind that
sort of, as Deb alluded tobefore, it's not going to a yoga
class once and it all will beokay.
(27:17):
I think it's cumulative andit's part of practice that you
need to consciously integrate,and I don't always get it right.
I don't think anybody does.
If there's anyone out therethat does, please let me know.
However, I think what I do is Ido practical things by asking
myself at the end of each dayhave I done everything that I
can before I close my computeror before I finish that you know
(27:41):
that contact or thatappointment with that person?
That's something that I doevery single day, but also tasks
like I really am a bit of anerd here.
I really enjoy building Legoand I've recently picked up
building book nooks, which arebook nooks.
Emily Webb (28:00):
Tell me more.
Cass Turnbull (28:01):
You build them.
Often you can buy them at agame shop and it's what would
you call it a book nook thatgoes into your bookshelf and it
looks like a little world.
So I built one that looked likethe Harry Potter Diagon Alley
and you can light them up and itlooks like a little world
within your bookshelf.
Oh my gosh.
Emily Webb (28:23):
I love it.
Cass and Debra just high-fived.
You can't see that, but I wishyou could have.
That is so awesome.
I absolutely love that.
Now, debra, I want to hear fromyou.
I don't know if there's Legobuilding in your life, but how
do you look after yourself andwhat works for you?
I guess it changes, doesn't it?
Life's life changes, so what doyou do for yourself?
Dr Debra Wood (28:47):
I'm so boring.
By comparison, I think I'mgetting much better at this as I
get older, and there are acouple of reasons for that.
One is that I feel lessindispensable, which I think is
to say that my influence on aparticular person or on a
(29:08):
particular team is less than Imight previously have thought it
was, and so that released me ofa great deal of pressure.
I'm also much better now, afterseveral years of therapy, at
looking after myself and havingmindful practices.
So I live in the country onacreage and, yes, I have a
(29:31):
chainsaw, yes, and also I liketo stay learning.
So I've got a history degreeand my latest thing is, after
finishing my gestalt training,I've started doing training in
inner relationship focusing,which is the bee's knees.
Emily Webb (29:50):
Can you just explain what gestalt therapy is?
Dr Debra Wood (29:53):
Yeah, in a nutshell, it's a psychotherapy
and philosophy style thatemerged in the 1950s by some
psychoanalysts who repudiatedpsychoanalysis almost wholesale,
and it was born from ahumanistic movement.
So it came from that idea ofthe human potential.
You know, we all have potentialfor growth.
We are oriented towards growth.
(30:15):
If only we just got out of ourown way.
And so Gestalt as apsychotherapy is very oriented
in the here and now.
You know what do I do?
That just avoided thatdifficult emotion over there.
Did I even notice?
I did that, for example.
Emily Webb (30:29):
That sounds like something I need to be honest, I
can't lie like get out of myown way, something to make me
notice things.
Phyllis, I'm interested.
What's your history focus?
What particular areas ofhistory are you passionate about
?
Dr Debra Wood (30:42):
I love modern history because I love the
materials.
I like to still be able to usewritten materials.
I wrote my honours thesis atthe University of Melbourne on
why the big old mental hospitalsin Victoria closed.
At the time it was veryfashionable to blame Geoff
Kennett, but in fact it allbegan in the 50s and the 60s as
(31:03):
part of a worldwide movement.
Emily Webb (31:05):
I must read that.
And yeah, Jeff Kennett does getblamed for that all the time.
Right, the Kennett years.
But that sounds reallyfascinating.
Now we're going to wrap up soonso you can both get to some
sessions, and I'm very gratefulfor your time.
Have you got any final thoughtsbefore we say bye-bye?
Cass Turnbull (31:25):
I think it's really important that, yeah,
there is always a why and totailor support regardless of
someone who might be identifiedas complex, whatever that looks
like for them, or defined ascomplex by the service system.
The Centrelink example that Debgave before is fantastic.
So these are things that aresmall, or seemingly small,
(31:48):
outcomes that can have quite asignificant impact for the
person as well as the staff atCentre Link and the community.
So that why is incrediblyimportant, but also, from a
workforce perspective, reallyputting on the table the
challenges of this work and someof the additional supports that
our staff need to be able tosustain this work but also
(32:11):
support each other, build ontheir practice, look after
themselves, Thanks, Cass.
Emily Webb (32:17):
And what about you Deb?
Any final thoughts?
Dr Debra Wood (32:21):
Final thoughts about the conference are that
this is the first conferenceI've been to where the keynote
speakers have been in jeans andrunners, so to me that's like
five stars.
Emily Webb (32:30):
I love that because I was a bit worried about what I
was wearing.
Because I just wanted to becomfortable, I've got my like
bamboo black pants on and I waslike, yeah, everyone's just
rocking their own style here.
So I'm all for that.
Deb and Cass, thank you so muchfor your time and, yeah, we
will speak again.
Cass Turnbull (32:49):
Amazing.
Thank you.
Dr Debra Wood (32:50):
Thank you for having us.
David (32:52):
You've been listening to Get Real talking mental health
and disability, brought to youby the team at Irma 365.
Get Real is produced andpresented by Emily Webb, with
Carenza Louis-Smith and specialguests.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
Get Real is recorded on the unceded lands of the Boon
, Wurrung and Wurundjeri peoplesof the Kulin Nation.
We acknowledge and pay ourrespects to their elders, past
and present.
We also acknowledge that theFirst Peoples of Australia are
the first storytellers, thefirst artists and the first
creators of culture and wecelebrate their enduring
(00:21):
connections to country.
Knowledge and stories celebratetheir enduring connections to
country knowledge and stories.
David (00:28):
Welcome to Get Real talking.
Mental health and disabilitybrought to you by the team at
Burma 365.
Cass Turnbull (00:34):
Join our hosts, Emily Webb and Carenza
Louis-Smith, as we have frankand fearless conversations with
special guests about all thingsmental health and complexity
with special guests about allthings mental health and
complexity.
Casey (00:49):
We recognise people with lived experience of mental ill
health and disability, as wellas their families and carers.
We recognise their strength,courage and unique perspective
as a vital contribution to thispodcast so we can learn, grow
and achieve better outcomestogether.
Cass Turnbull (01:12):
It's in everyone's best interest,
including the community, tosupport and build people's
capacity to be able to engagewith not just the service system
but society.
We're working with people thatsit in a corridor between the
justice system and the mentalhealth system.
Dr Debra Wood (01:30):
I'm very focused on how can we tweak this system
of supports, or should-besupports, around this person to
go the next little step towardsperhaps getting them housing,
mitigating their risk in orderthat they can go to a
supermarket, stabilising theNDIS supports around them.
Emily Webb (01:54):
Welcome to Get Real talking mental health and
disability.
I'm Emily Webb.
This episode is aboutsupporting people who experience
significant barriers toaccessing services for their
daily living.
The basis for this conversationis an important pilot service
in Victoria called AssertiveOutreach and Support, funded by
(02:17):
the Department of Families,Fairness and Housing under its
Multiple and Complex NeedsInitiative.
Irma 365 and ACSO Australiadeliver the service in parts of
Melbourne and regional Victoria.
Our guests for this episode areCassandra Turnbull from Irma
365 and psychiatrist Dr DebraWood from Clarity Health care,
(02:39):
who provides clinical governancefor the team.
As well as hearing about whythere is a need for this program
, you'll also hear about what ittakes to work in this space and
Cass and Debra's experiences.
We recorded this conversation atthe Complex Needs Conference in
March this year.
We're at the Complex NeedsConference in Melbourne.
(03:02):
It's day two, the conference issold out and there's some
awesome energy here.
Cass, Debra, welcome to GetReal podcast.
Thank you so much for your time.
What have been some of thehighlights of the conference for
you both so far?
Cass, you were here yesterday.
What have you thought about it?
Cass Turnbull (03:22):
It's been such a busy but inspiring day and a
half.
So far it's been fantastic.
Emily Webb (03:29):
And you did a panel about assertive outreach support
yesterday.
How did that go?
Cass Turnbull (03:33):
Yes, we did so.
Together with our colleaguesfrom DFFH and AXO, we talked
through the journey of an AOSclient to really illustrate who
an AOS client is and what itlooks like on the ground,
supporting them day to day.
And Deborah.
Emily Webb (03:49):
I know you've just arrived, but what do you think
so far?
Dr Debra Wood (03:53):
Yeah, I had the privilege of attending the panel
this morning chaired by JohnFain and where the conversation
was around Indigenous culturalsafety, so it blew my mind.
The conversation was aroundIndigenous cultural safety, so
it blew my mind.
Eminent speakers, I am touchedby the kind of personal nature
of the conference and I notice,even within the attendees
(04:20):
there's a vibe that I've notfelt at other conferences where
there's usually a sense ofticking a box.
You know, I get the real sensethat this is a real energy.
Emily Webb (04:24):
Yeah, I think the energy's been pretty great.
A lot of people have beencommenting about it.
So this conference came to befrom the work that Irma 365 and
AXO Australia is doing in thecomplex needs space.
The Assertive Outreach SupportService, which we call AOS, is a
pilot funded by Victoria'sDepartment of Families, Fairness
(04:45):
and Housing, DIFA or DFFH, andworks with people who are
referred to the program by theMultiple and Complex Needs
Initiative.
Cass and Deborah, let's findout about you both before we
talk about AOS and your workwith Irma365's team.
Cass, tell us about your work.
I'm always interested in howpeople come to work in the
(05:06):
mental health sector.
You've been with Irma for awhile now.
Cass Turnbull (05:09):
So I have been with Irma for just over 10 years
now.
I started off, funnily enough,in a pilot program supporting
people who were frequentpresenting to emergency
departments and experiencingchronic homelessness.
That really ignited a passionfor a highly vulnerable cohort.
I was early on in my career andfrom then on it really
(05:31):
progressed from there.
Emily Webb (05:34):
And Debra, can you tell us about your practice as a
psychiatrist doctor and yourspecialisations?
Dr Debra Wood (05:41):
I'm what they call, in the field a dabbler.
I'm what they call in the fielda dabbler, trained firstly as a
psychiatrist and I ended upworking in the forensic area.
So I was six years workingmostly in maximum security
prisons, and then had a careerand midlife crisis retrained as
an emergency medicine physician,and I suffered burnout, mostly
(06:02):
through workplace violence, andso for the last two years I've
gone back to my roots and I'mback doing psychiatry, but my
passion is in psychotherapy, butI can't help but feel that
there but for some good fortune,I might have gone as well.
I was homeless in my teens andI can't get out of my mind
(06:27):
either a conversation I had witha mum of a young 18-year-old
who had schizophrenia.
This is going back more than 20years and she said it's like a
living death.
This young man, who was thisgorgeous, gregarious A-grade
student, had very severeschizophrenia and was about to
become homeless and I thoughtyou know, we could all be that
(06:49):
person.
We could all be that mum.
Emily Webb (06:52):
Debra, can I ask?
You said you were homeless inyour teens.
What happened then, where youfollowed the educational pathway
that you did?
Well, this was back in the daywhere universities were free.
I had been singled out by thestate school system as one of
those quote unquote gifted kids,and so everybody said you
(07:16):
should do medicine, and I wasaccelerated through school.
But I thought that gets me aprofession.
It gets me a guaranteed incomeand a guaranteed profession, and
so I.
It wasn't probably what Ishould have done, but it's what
I did for pragmatic reasons, andthe first three years of my
degree were paid for by thegovernment, and then I had to
work and put myself through therest.
(07:38):
That's some going and it's really powerful.
What you said about, yeah, butfor the you know fortune or
what's the saying?
The grace of God, I mean, youknow, I'm just saying that
because that's what you hear,but yeah, it's like any of us
could have that happen if thereweren't certain circumstances.
Yeah, I think being at theconference really highlights
that for me, that there's justso much going on in people's
(08:01):
lives.
Cass, can you give us anoverview of how AOS came to be
and the intention of the program?
Cass Turnbull (08:09):
So AOS kicked off in July 2023 as a 12-month
pilot, then was extended in itspilot form, and what AOS is
really aiming to do is to engagepeople who are deemed an
unacceptable risk to community,as well as experiencing
significant service gaps, sothey're highly disengaged from
(08:31):
the service system and often, asDeb said earlier, experiencing
potential multiple diagnoses andchallenges that prevent them
from engaging with the servicesystem that they so desperately
need.
So our aim is to really, yes,bring the service system and the
(08:51):
client together.
So often it's building thecapacity of the service system
around the person to respond ina meaningful way, as well as
having the person feel heard andunderstood, and that timing as
well correct timing to be ableto deliver supports when needed
is really important.
Emily Webb (09:10):
And you explained a bit about who the people are
that access AOS or are referredto AOS.
Can you go a bit?
What would someone in the AOSprogram?
What would be happening forthem?
I guess I know that everyone'sdifferent.
Nothing would be the same.
So, cass, I'll ask you first,and then Deborah, I'd like to
(09:32):
get your thoughts because youwork with the AOS program and
we'll talk a bit more about that.
Cass Turnbull (09:39):
AOS work with people who have come in frequent
contact with the criminaljustice system.
They often have substance usedisorders as well, and not in
all cases, and the way that canimpact people really varies from
person to person.
Often they are transient aswell, so often experiencing
(10:02):
chronic homelessness, and Ithink it's really important to
say, whilst there are people inour community that experience a
lot of those complex issues, alot of the people that we
support actually the majority ofthem have service-wide bans
because the service system isexhausted from being able to
respond or they're deemed toohigh risk, which further
(10:24):
prevents them to engage with thesupport they need.
Emily Webb (10:29):
Debra, you work with the ermha team doing the AOS
program and it's a goodcollaboration.
How did you come to be workingwith the team and what is it
that you support them with?
Dr Debra Wood (10:43):
So I work with Clarity Healthcare as a
psychiatrist in North Fitzroyand Irma had approached Davis
Lemke, who's our CEO, about someclinical governance or clinical
supervision, and I think Ihappened to be in the corridor
at the right time.
There are only threepsychiatrists there, one of whom
(11:04):
has a great deal of experienceworking with a homeless team in
London, but he was happy for meto participate in this as a
pilot.
I think I have experience inforensic, in drug and alcohol
emergency services.
I've done some administrativepsychiatry and worked for mental
health review boards andtribunals, so I think I'm the
(11:25):
hack who's dabbled.
I've done some administrativepsychiatry and worked for mental
health review boards andtribunals, so I think I'm the
hack who's dabbled in lots ofdifferent areas, and that
mirrors some of the servicesystems that our clients are
involved with.
Emily Webb (11:35):
And Cass what's been the great benefit of having
Debra on the team.
Cass Turnbull (11:41):
It's been quite significant in so many positive
ways.
That benefits not only thestaff, the wellbeing of the
staff and the practice of all ofour AOS practitioners, but also
the outcomes of the people wesupport.
I think Deb is a great fit forAOS and Irma and all the
experience that you bring tothat space.
(12:02):
So I think it's also thatclinical lens with the
day-to-day that can be reallypractical.
So we meet with Deb twice aweek and staff will bring the
people we support and some ofthe challenges that we're
experiencing to really put it onthe table and get Deb's
recommendations and advice andoften support just around the
(12:23):
day-to-day work.
Emily Webb (12:25):
And with the people that AOS supports.
And at this conference we'veheard a lot of stories about
really great practice, some ofthe challenges, innovative
thinking and people who are atthis conference.
They want better for peoplewith complex needs, they want
systems to work better.
They want more recognition ofhow complex it is to work with
(12:51):
complex needs.
But in the general communitythere's really not a lot of
goodwill for the people that sayAOS would support the cohort
that we work with in this space.
And we hear it from media,politicians on social media,
that a lot of the time peoplewith complex needs should be
(13:13):
given nothing like no sympathy.
Who cares?
I'm just pricing that, lockthem up, get tougher, and we're
seeing that happen with baillaws and things like that.
I want to unpack this morebecause it's not just about
helping the individual.
There's a bigger picture.
Deb, I'd like your thoughtsfirst, because you've worked in
(13:33):
prisons.
You've worked in prisons,you've worked in public
hospitals, in emergencydepartments.
You've pretty much seen it all.
Dr Debra Wood (13:44):
What are your thoughts about that?
I can sympathise with thegeneral public who are seeing
episodes of violence orunacceptable kind of public
behaviour, for example,exposures or verbal abuse.
I don't believe that the lockthem up, give them nothing.
Strategy works, because I'veworked in prison and they do
eventually come out.
(14:04):
So the way that I view thisspace is that the community is
also our client.
We have the client who's beenreferred to Irma In my mind.
Our clients are that personalso, and the general public and
the services that areinteracting with them, which
includes emergency services suchas police and ambulance.
(14:25):
It includes Centrelink, housing, council, child protection.
All of these services that ourclients are needing to interact
with are also our clients in myview, and so I don't hold a view
that we just, you know, sendthem on a trip to Hollywood if
that's what they feel like.
It's not like that.
You know, what the personthinks they want isn't always
(14:47):
what they get.
Sometimes they don't get itbecause they should get it and
it would make a difference.
Sometimes they don't get itbecause they should get it and
it would make a difference.
Sometimes they don't get itbecause that's just not how the
world works and Cass.
Emily Webb (14:59):
What about your thoughts about that?
Because I guess, working in themental health space and with
the people that you do, you'vegot a passion for it.
You know the public opinion andcommunity sentiment can play a
role in how you're able tosupport people.
So what are your thoughts?
Cass Turnbull (15:19):
I think it's really important that I touched
on it earlier just aroundhearing somebody and tailoring
the support to someone's lifeand what their experience is.
We all want to feel heard heard.
That doesn't change for someoneexperiencing complex needs or
if they're, you know they'regoing through a tough time.
I would also agree with deb interms of it's in everyone's best
(15:43):
interest, including thecommunity, to support and build
people's capacity to be able toengage with not just the service
system but society.
We're working with people thatsit in a corridor between the
justice system and the mentalhealth system and they don't
quite fit any box, and norshould we.
We shouldn't fit into a box,but they do.
(16:05):
They sit in this corridor thatis unsupported and it's in
everyone's best interest to beable to build capacity for this
cohort to contribute to societyin a meaningful, positive way
and engage in life and what thatlooks like for them.
Dr Debra Wood (16:23):
The other thing I'd add to that, emily, is that
it's in the interest of all ofthe services that service all of
us Centrelink, banks,supermarkets that this group is
catered to, because this is theone person who ruins your day.
If you're a GP receptionist, ifyou're a council worker, this
(16:43):
is the person that comes in andmakes you not want to come back
to work tomorrow.
If we can actually provideservices for this group, support
them in you know there's amyriad of ideas we have around
that then that makes it betterfor everyone, including the
regular service systems.
Emily Webb (17:03):
Deborah, I want to go back to something you
mentioned earlier that you'dretrained in emergency medicine,
which is amazing, but you leftbecause of burnout due to
workplace violence.
So you know what you're talkingabout here and what you said is
really powerful.
Do you want to add anythingabout that?
Dr Debra Wood (17:21):
I once said to one of my senior nurse
colleagues in emergency who wasbuilt like the proverbial, like
a very big unit, and I said tohim do you what?
I felt safer working in prisonthan I do working here?
We tolerate worse behaviour inthis emergency department than I
ever saw tolerated in prison,and his eyes popped.
(17:43):
And so I think in services thatare front facing, that are
public facing, particularly ifwe're talking about social
services, there's a lot thatgets tolerated and I think it's
a bit like you know the boilingfrog it gets incrementally worse
each year.
And I think there's a culturewithin services which is a bit
(18:07):
like we were talking withcultural safety.
That's a bit tokenistic.
It's like, oh, if we put amassage chair out the back, if
we give you a yoga ticket, if weteach you square breathing,
then you should be able to copewith this, Like what's wrong
with you, and the implicitmessage is that it's the worker
that's the problem.
You should be able to toleratethis and I push back very
(18:28):
strongly against that.
Emily Webb (18:31):
Now, thanks for sharing that.
I think about workplace safetyand workplace violence a lot
since working at Irma 365, butalso I've got daughters,
teenagers, who both work incustomer service jobs.
Both have worked at awell-known fast food
establishment and the older onehas worked at a supermarket for
(18:53):
a couple of years now and someof the stuff that happens there
is pretty scary.
And these are usually no one'solder than like 19 who is on
shift.
Dr Debra Wood (19:05):
So, for example and Cass is a better person to
speak of specifics but sometimespeople go into Centrelink
offices and they totally losetheir proverbial because they
came in yesterday and they weretold to come back today and
whatever was supposed to happenisn't happening and so they lose
it and it's incrediblydistressing for the person, the
(19:30):
staff, the other people who arewitnessing that.
And sometimes it's as simple,as you know if we had a worker
go in who established beforehandthat that thing wasn't
available, then we can avoid allof that.
We can say, well, tell us whenit is available and we'll bring
this person back for anappointment rather than have it
go unchecked.
(19:50):
It's just a simple example ofhow you know, tailoring services
to this particular group canavoid a lot of grief yeah,
sometimes it's obviously thebehavior is not great, but why
is the behaviour happening?
Emily Webb (20:07):
Are the systems?
Are the structures notsupporting a best outcome?
I guess is what I'm trying tosay, and it's always blame the
person or blame the worker, asyou said.
Deborah, you're right.
Cass Turnbull (20:21):
There is always a why.
I think it's really importantto acknowledge this is really
difficult work and at timesthere can be potential for quite
high-risk situations.
But it's important toacknowledge that and here at
Irma we genuinely walk the talksafety first, last and always.
(20:42):
But it's important toacknowledge that and we've been
very fortunate to be able to putadditional supports in place
for the psychological safety ofour staff.
That includes consultationswith Dr Deb that their
occupational violence is not totolerate.
Being sworn at and calling itfor what it is.
(21:03):
It's occupational violence.
It's not ohs, it's not whs, andwhat I mean by that is
simplifying it into an acronym,because it can be really serious
.
It can affect someone'slong-term mental well-being.
We have a responsibility to ourstaff to ensure their safety,
but not minimizing.
Minimising that it'sacknowledging.
(21:25):
It's there so we can put instrategies to help mitigate and
manage but, importantly, supportthe staff.
They're human beings and it'sreally important to put that on
the table.
Emily Webb (21:36):
Yeah, I think that's really important.
I mean, the staff are amazing,but they're not superhuman, are
they?
It's not like Teflon, it's justtake it, it take it and and
yeah, irma's done some reallyinteresting work in this space
where we're challenging theideas about workplace violence.
Oh, it's part of the job, oryou know, I don't want to report
(21:57):
it, I don't want the client toget in trouble.
It's been a really interestingpiece and I want to move on
further from that, because youdid say, this work is hard and
frustrating, heartbreaking,probably also satisfying.
But how do you both hold outhope for the work that you do?
And, deborah, I want to go backto something that we talked
(22:21):
about when we were discussingdoing this podcast.
You know know about bringingawareness to some of the
challenges within this work thatis not spoken about, and also
sustaining the workforce.
So, yeah, could you talk aboutthat please?
Dr Debra Wood (22:36):
In terms of hope, because I'm not a front face
worker for Irma, I'm doing aclinical supervision role and so
I think that makes it a loteasier for me.
And the way that I think aboutit is what is the next little
step?
So I'm very focused on how canwe tweak this system of supports
(22:58):
or should be supports aroundthis person to go the next
little step towards perhapsgetting them housing, mitigating
their risk in order that theycan go to a supermarket,
stabilising the NDIS supportsaround them.
So my focus is very much juston the next little step and it's
(23:19):
quite process focused ratherthan outcome focused.
The other things I think thatare on the periphery is an
awareness, but not necessarilyspoken about is that not every
client is going to have a goodoutcome.
A, b.
Sometimes a person might end upback in prison and we don't
(23:40):
necessarily regard that as acatastrophic failure.
Sometimes and I'm not trying tobe an advocate for
incarceration, but what I'msaying is that sometimes that is
the only service that canstabilise somebody enough, keep
the public safe enough in orderfor us to have a chance to
engage with the person such thatnext time when they're out we
(24:01):
have a chance of having adifferent outcome, and that's
the controversial thing for meto say.
We're supposed to say prison istoxic, it's irrevocably bad,
it's always a bad outcome.
So I guess what I'm saying is Iconsider the community to be
one of our clients and we have acriminal justice system for a
reason.
Emily Webb (24:21):
Cass, what about you ?
It's tough, but how do you, Iguess, hold out hope for the
work that you do, sustain theworkforce but also balance that
being realistic about what youdo?
Cass Turnbull (24:36):
Being able to work collaboratively in what can
be a really complex servicesystem to navigate is really
important.
But, as Deb said as well,sometimes prison court provides
us a safe place for our staff togo in, get in front of somebody
and start to build that rapport, and it's those little glimmers
(24:58):
of not going into prison, butthose little glimmers of being
able to engage somebody in a waythat's meaningful for them.
These are people that extremelydistrustful of the service
system, are often traumatised bythe service system, and we're
providing a service to help, tosupport them in a life that's
(25:18):
meaningful for them.
So I think, by holding out hope, I think it's focusing on what
the purpose of the work is andwhat we're aiming to do.
But the reality is we're notgoing to have extraordinarily
positive outcomes for everybody.
But that doesn't stop us fromtrying, because the benefits are
huge for the community but alsothe individual.
Dr Debra Wood (25:42):
The only thing I would add to that and it's kind
of taking the conversation a bitsideways is the idea of
complexity.
I was struck by cass's commentearlier in the conversation
about the services that a personso desperately needs, and I was
thinking the person themselvesprobably doesn't think they
(26:04):
desperately need them in fact,any at all.
So we somehow need to find away of bridging this gap between
what the social system providesincluding a service such as
Irma to try and link people inand what a person feels that
they need in order to live ascast so eloquently put a
(26:24):
fulfilling life, which I thinkis really what we're hoping for,
and I think that's a space thatneeds a whole lot more research
and conversation.
Emily Webb (26:33):
For this podcast.
Corenza and I will often askour guests what works for them
looking after their ownwellbeing, their own mental
health.
So what do you both do to fillyour cup?
Take care of yourself.
Just get a bit of respite.
Cass, I'll start with you howdo you take care of you?
Cass Turnbull (26:57):
It's a really important question to pose, I
think, to everybody in thesector, but also just-being in
general and what you actually do, but with intent behind that
sort of, as Deb alluded tobefore, it's not going to a yoga
class once and it all will beokay.
(27:17):
I think it's cumulative andit's part of practice that you
need to consciously integrate,and I don't always get it right.
I don't think anybody does.
If there's anyone out therethat does, please let me know.
However, I think what I do is Ido practical things by asking
myself at the end of each dayhave I done everything that I
can before I close my computeror before I finish that you know
(27:41):
that contact or thatappointment with that person?
That's something that I doevery single day, but also tasks
like I really am a bit of anerd here.
I really enjoy building Legoand I've recently picked up
building book nooks, which arebook nooks.
Emily Webb (28:00):
Tell me more.
Cass Turnbull (28:01):
You build them.
Often you can buy them at agame shop and it's what would
you call it a book nook thatgoes into your bookshelf and it
looks like a little world.
So I built one that looked likethe Harry Potter Diagon Alley
and you can light them up and itlooks like a little world
within your bookshelf.
Oh my gosh.
Emily Webb (28:23):
I love it.
Cass and Debra just high-fived.
You can't see that, but I wishyou could have.
That is so awesome.
I absolutely love that.
Now, debra, I want to hear fromyou.
I don't know if there's Legobuilding in your life, but how
do you look after yourself andwhat works for you?
I guess it changes, doesn't it?
Life's life changes, so what doyou do for yourself?
Dr Debra Wood (28:47):
I'm so boring.
By comparison, I think I'mgetting much better at this as I
get older, and there are acouple of reasons for that.
One is that I feel lessindispensable, which I think is
to say that my influence on aparticular person or on a
(29:08):
particular team is less than Imight previously have thought it
was, and so that released me ofa great deal of pressure.
I'm also much better now, afterseveral years of therapy, at
looking after myself and havingmindful practices.
So I live in the country onacreage and, yes, I have a
(29:31):
chainsaw, yes, and also I liketo stay learning.
So I've got a history degreeand my latest thing is, after
finishing my gestalt training,I've started doing training in
inner relationship focusing,which is the bee's knees.
Emily Webb (29:50):
Can you just explain what gestalt therapy is?
Dr Debra Wood (29:53):
Yeah, in a nutshell, it's a psychotherapy
and philosophy style thatemerged in the 1950s by some
psychoanalysts who repudiatedpsychoanalysis almost wholesale,
and it was born from ahumanistic movement.
So it came from that idea ofthe human potential.
You know, we all have potentialfor growth.
We are oriented towards growth.
(30:15):
If only we just got out of ourown way.
And so Gestalt as apsychotherapy is very oriented
in the here and now.
You know what do I do?
That just avoided thatdifficult emotion over there.
Did I even notice?
I did that, for example.
Emily Webb (30:29):
That sounds like something I need to be honest, I
can't lie like get out of myown way, something to make me
notice things.
Phyllis, I'm interested.
What's your history focus?
What particular areas ofhistory are you passionate about
?
Dr Debra Wood (30:42):
I love modern history because I love the
materials.
I like to still be able to usewritten materials.
I wrote my honours thesis atthe University of Melbourne on
why the big old mental hospitalsin Victoria closed.
At the time it was veryfashionable to blame Geoff
Kennett, but in fact it allbegan in the 50s and the 60s as
(31:03):
part of a worldwide movement.
Emily Webb (31:05):
I must read that.
And yeah, Jeff Kennett does getblamed for that all the time.
Right, the Kennett years.
But that sounds reallyfascinating.
Now we're going to wrap up soonso you can both get to some
sessions, and I'm very gratefulfor your time.
Have you got any final thoughtsbefore we say bye-bye?
Cass Turnbull (31:25):
I think it's really important that, yeah,
there is always a why and totailor support regardless of
someone who might be identifiedas complex, whatever that looks
like for them, or defined ascomplex by the service system.
The Centrelink example that Debgave before is fantastic.
So these are things that aresmall, or seemingly small,
(31:48):
outcomes that can have quite asignificant impact for the
person as well as the staff atCentre Link and the community.
So that why is incrediblyimportant, but also, from a
workforce perspective, reallyputting on the table the
challenges of this work and someof the additional supports that
our staff need to be able tosustain this work but also
(32:11):
support each other, build ontheir practice, look after
themselves, Thanks, Cass.
Emily Webb (32:17):
And what about you Deb?
Any final thoughts?
Dr Debra Wood (32:21):
Final thoughts about the conference are that
this is the first conferenceI've been to where the keynote
speakers have been in jeans andrunners, so to me that's like
five stars.
Emily Webb (32:30):
I love that because I was a bit worried about what I
was wearing.
Because I just wanted to becomfortable, I've got my like
bamboo black pants on and I waslike, yeah, everyone's just
rocking their own style here.
So I'm all for that.
Deb and Cass, thank you so muchfor your time and, yeah, we
will speak again.
Cass Turnbull (32:49):
Amazing.
Thank you.
Dr Debra Wood (32:50):
Thank you for having us.
David (32:52):
You've been listening to Get Real talking mental health
and disability, brought to youby the team at Irma 365.
Get Real is produced andpresented by Emily Webb, with
Carenza Louis-Smith and specialguests.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
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