July 8, 2025 • 42 mins
The mental health system in New South Wales has been in the spotlight of recent months. ABC’s recent Four Corners episode “Emergency” about the state’s mental health system highlighted the extreme system failures that happen when there is underinvestment in community-based mental health care. The program highlighted that people in deep psychological distress are being left in emergency departments for days, health workers are exhausted and the “missing middle”— those too unwell for a GP but not sick enough for hospital — are being left behind.
Our guest for this episode is Dr Evelyne Tadros, CEO of the Mental Health Coordinating Council in NSW, a peak member-based organisation for the community mental health sector.
We’ll be talking with Evelyne about where Mental Health system reform is at in NSW.
You can also listen to our previous episode with Mental Health Victoria CEO Pip Thomas about the system in Victoria and federally.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Michael (00:00):
Get Real is recorded on the unceded lands of the Boon,
Wurrung and Wurundjeri peoplesof the Kulin Nation.
We acknowledge and pay ourrespects to their elders, past
and present.
We also acknowledge that theFirst Peoples of Australia are
the first storytellers, thefirst artists and the first
creators of culture and wecelebrate their enduring
(00:21):
connections to country.
Knowledge and stories celebratetheir enduring connections to
country knowledge and stories.
David (00:28):
Welcome to Get Real talking.
Mental health and disabilitybrought to you by the team at
ermha 365.
ermha365 (00:34):
Join our hosts, Emily Webb and Karenza Louis-Smith, as
we have frank and fearlessconversations with special
guests about all things mentalhealth and complexity with
special guests about all thingsmental health and complexity.
Casey (00:49):
We recognise people with lived experience of mental ill
health and disability, as wellas their families and carers.
We recognise their strength,courage and unique perspective
as a vital contribution to thispodcast so we can learn, grow
and achieve better outcomestogether.
Emily Webb (01:13):
Welcome to Get Real talking mental health and
disability.
I'm Emily Webb, erma 365 CEO.
Carenza Louis-Smith is here too, and we are very excited to be
speaking to Dr Eveline Tadros,the CEO of the Mental Health
Coordinating Council in NewSouth Wales, a peak member-based
organisation for the communitymental health sector, and it's
(01:36):
also a registered trainingorganisation.
Eveline is a Board Directorwith Mental Health Australia St
John Ambulance, new South Wales,and is on the board of Risk
Governance and NominationsCommittee for St Vincent de Paul
in New South Wales.
She has a doctorate degree inhealth science, behavioural and
(01:56):
community health and iscommitted to supporting
individuals and communities tothrive through systemic change
and collaborative influence andaction.
Eveline is driven to advocatefor mental health reform for and
with people with livedexperience of mental health
conditions, along with theircarers, and in championing the
(02:17):
work of community managedorganisations.
Now the mental health system inNew South Wales has been in the
spotlight of recent months.
Abc's recent Four Cornersepisode Emergency about the
state's mental health systemhighlighted some extreme system
failures that happen when thereis an underinvestment in
(02:38):
community-based mental healthcare.
The program highlighted thatpeople in deep psychological
distress are being left inemergency departments for days,
only to be sent home without thecare they desperately need.
Health workers are exhausted,psychiatrists are walking away
and the missing middle those toounwell for a GP but not sick
(02:59):
enough for hospital are beingleft behind.
So we'll be talking withEveline about where the mental
health system reform is at inNew South Wales.
Karenza Louis-Smith (03:10):
Eveline, it's fantastic to have you here
as part of Get Real.
Can we just start talking alittle bit about the Mental
Health Coordinating Council,MHCC?
Can you start by telling us abit about the role and the work
of the council and what you do,please?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (03:24):
Of course.
Well, first of all, thanks forhaving us, carenza.
It's great to be able to talkto your listeners about the
Mental Health CoordinatingCouncil and everything that's
happening in the mental healthspace.
Mental Health CoordinatingCouncil, also fondly known as
MHCC, is the peak bodypredominantly for community
managed mental healthorganisations, or what we call
CMOs in New South Wales.
(03:45):
We're also a registeredtraining organisation delivering
accredited and non-accreditedtraining programs.
We represent community-basednon-government organisations who
support people living withmental health challenges.
We've got about 150 membersassisting people who live well
in the community by delivering arange of psychosocial supports,
including socialconnection-based programs,
(04:06):
rehabilitation and clinicalservices.
We're also involved in policyleadership, promoting
legislative reform and systemicchange, and we work closely with
Mental Health Australia onmatters of national interest to
the sector, includingcross-government collaboration,
bilat agreements and the NDIS,and we also work with the New
South Wales Mental HealthAlliance, which is a partnership
(04:27):
of state-based peak bodies andprofessional associations, on
matters of mutual interest inNew South Wales.
Emily Webb (04:34):
Now Evelyne.
Recently on ABC Four Corners,doctors and frontline health
workers in New South Wales toldsome pretty dramatic stories.
They can't stay silent anymore.
They're warning they'rewitnessing the collapse of
public mental health care in thestate.
Cctv and internal figuresshowed patients in crisis, some
(04:56):
waiting four days for care inone of the country's busiest
emergency departments, andthey're saying the delays are
fueling violence and unsafedischarges, and it painted a
very grim picture.
Is this the reality that youare seeing and hearing about as
the CEO of the MHCC?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (05:14):
Thanks, emily .
Look, it's a really complicatedsituation, and fixing the New
South Wales mental health systemat breaking point requires more
than confronting images ofemergency departments and
stigmatising portrayals ofpeople experiencing mental
health challenges in distress.
It demands investment in thecommunity-based mental health
services that prevent crisis inthe first place.
(05:35):
What often gets overlooked, Iguess, is that the most
effective and underfunded partof the solution is what MHCC has
reiterated repeatedly thatunless we invest in
community-based mental healthcare, a continued over-reliance
on emergency and acute serviceswill perpetuate a system in
constant crisis.
The New South Wales mentalhealth system is in crisis not
(05:57):
because we lack solutions, butbecause we continue to
under-invest in the parts of theservice system that work
Community-based mental healthmodels, such as step-up,
step-down programs that focus onpeople's recovery before crisis
occurs.
You know, I've always saidthings like prevention is better
than cure, so putting things atthe front end rather than back
(06:18):
end of the system is what wewould support.
Community-managed programs arekey to minimising the need for
inpatient admissions andproviding cost-effective
wraparound supports.
That evidence has clearly shownto have lasting positive
outcomes both for individualsand the community.
These programs offer safetransitions to and from services
(06:38):
and parts of the service systembut, most importantly, offer
services that minimise the needfor emergency interventions and
reduce risk of involuntaryorders and engagement with
police and the criminal justicesystem.
Whilst we acknowledge theextreme challenges experienced
by individuals, their carers andstaff in emergency settings and
that is real what we need toaddress is the systemic issues
(06:59):
that exist, includinginsufficient workforce, both
inside and outside the publicservice system.
Right, so it's not just aboutthe psychiatrists and the
workforce issues that they'refacing, it's also about what our
cmo sector experiences, andobviously we would just continue
to advocate for you know the Ithink it's the four classics
human-centered, trauma-informed,recovery oriented and you know,
(07:21):
now we're certainly starting topush the agenda of supported
decision making, so people justhave to have access to
wraparound services that meettheir psychological needs, based
on the social determinants ofhealth and cultural diversity.
First Nations and support thathelps carers and families must
be part of the mix.
Karenza Louis-Smith (07:41):
So, eveline kind of, I think what you're
describing is when someone'slooking for kind of supports for
mental health.
There's not a lot there.
You've got to get really sickand rock up to ED first, because
the part that you talk aboutand I've read some of the things
that you're saying about themissing middle and that's the
part people who aren't so unwellthat they don't necessarily
(08:02):
need to go into hospital, into amental health bed, but they
need something in the community,and that's the gap that you're
seeing and hearing about.
Is that what I understand to beright?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (08:12):
Absolutely, and it's about that, targeting
prevention and earlyintervention rather than relying
principally on emergencyservices.
We'll build capacity forexisting hospital workforce to
meet the needs of people incrisis and keep them safe until
they're stable and have plans inplace to support them and their
long-term recovery.
Karenza Louis-Smith (08:32):
It's interesting because we chatted
to Pip Thomas, the CEO of MentalHealth Victoria, just a few
weeks ago, just ahead of theVictorian budget, and, as you
know, victoria's had a hugeRoyal Commission into mental
health and they found really thesort of things that you're
describing in New South Wales aservice system that was broken
over, reliance on emergencydepartments, not really any
(08:52):
investment in community basedmental health and that people,
when they needed access tomental health services and
supports, weren't getting it.
You know you had to becomereally, really unwell before you
could get the sort of supportsthat you needed from a state
government funded mental healthservice system.
So it's interesting that NewSouth Wales could have had a
good look at what's happened inVictoria and gone OK.
(09:14):
You know we don't want to godown the same path and make the
same mistakes, but thatobviously isn't happening.
I mean, you're quite strong inyour views.
Crisis management isn't theanswer.
You know you're saying thesystem is broken that's
certainly what the RoyalCommission has heard in Victoria
and a strong need to invest inwhat they call mental health and
wellbeing hubs across the wholeof the state where people could
(09:35):
walk in without an appointment,without need you know, and just
to be able to actuallyimmediately get access to mental
health supports.
Is that the sort of thing thatyou're wanting to see in New
South Wales, or are you talkingabout different types of
investment or different things?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (09:49):
Look, I think the New South Wales government
needs to seriously invest in theentire mental health system
Tinkering around the edges andthe band-aid solutions on offer
are unviable both in terms ofsustainability, monetarily, as
well as just in terms of theworkforce.
So we need multidisciplinarycommunity care teams to engage
with people, as I keep saying,prior to crisis, that
(10:12):
facilitates their transitionback into the community.
Step-up, step-down models thatprovide short-term residential
mental health programs to helppeople avoid or reduce hospital
stays or transition them backinto community after inpatient
care.
These voluntary, accessibleservices offer a safe,
supportive space focused onrecovery and independence, and I
(10:34):
guess I could give you a coupleof examples of those, if that's
okay.
The Prevention and RecoveryCentre, for example, I think,
was launched a couple of monthsago.
The report and the outcomesreport of that and it's shown to
reduce emergency departmentpresentations by 33% to 44% and
cost one third of inpatient care.
(10:56):
So I'm just going to repeatthose stats again it's reducing
emergency departmentpresentations by 33% to 44% and
it costs one third of inpatientcare.
We've got another example of the.
It used to be called theHousing and Support Initiative,
also commonly known as HAZI, butit's also known as Community
Living Support.
They've got kind of dual namesbut they deliver the same thing.
(11:18):
They support people out ofhospital to appropriate
community-based livingenvironments and that program
showed a 74% reduction inhospital admissions and the
length of stay in hospitaldecreased by 75 over two years,
75% over two years.
So we've got some really greatevidence-based programs that
work.
Yet the investment seems minimalin those has.
(11:42):
E would have been arguing forthat program to be increased to
at least 2,000 more to support2,000 more individuals, but we
can certainly get more peoplesupporting that if there was the
willingness to increase thefunding in that space.
And the Prevention and RecoveryCentre, where there's only two
of those programs in New SouthWales.
So there are, as I keep saying,evidence-based programs at work
(12:03):
.
The other thing that I'd commendis also the work of Mental
Health Australia.
They did a great piece of workwhich MHCC was involved in, and
it was their advice togovernments on evidence-informed
and good practice psychosocialservices that we contend the
Australian government shouldfund to address the gap in
psychosocial services outsidethe NDIS.
(12:23):
It's a comprehensive piece ofwork.
So we've got the evidence ofwhat works.
We just need the willingnessand the political will.
I'd say not even thewillingness, the political will
and investment.
You know we talk about allthese unmet needs but then we go
from inquiry to commission andwe don't really see the
investment come throughfollowing any of the
recommendations that come out ofany of these inquiries and
(12:46):
reviews that are conducted.
Karenza Louis-Smith (12:47):
So I reckon you know, as taxpayers and
voters, people would belistening to you and wondering
why aren't people listening tothose statistics?
I mean, you've repeated them,they're pretty powerful.
You know for every dollar thatyou're spending in the community
, you're getting people earlyaccess to mental health
treatment.
You know, and I think theevidence shows that the earlier
you know people need supportwhen they need it, when, where
(13:12):
and how.
You know and the quicker youcan get that and the quicker you
can do that and get someone onthat pathway to recovery is an
important thing.
So why do you think it'sfalling on deaf ears?
You know, for want of a betterphrase, it's a good question.
Dr Evelyne Tadros (13:21):
I think they you know I don't envy the
position of politicians becauseI do think they have a lot of
people coming through their doorwith lots of demands, even in
the mental health space.
You know I've heard ministerstalk about a fragmented system,
but I guess that's our job inmany ways to bring together the
community-managed sector to talkand advocate and sing off the
(13:43):
same song sheet and get thosekey messages out there.
And our key message iscommunity-based services work.
And we've got the evidence basefor that.
I've just given the stats ontwo programs.
There's an entire document fromMental Health Australia about
all the other various programsand when we talk about programs
it also goes into what worksbest for children and young
people, what works best forchildren with autism or people
(14:05):
with developmental delays orolder generations with mental
health challenges.
So political will and just theguts to just give something a go
.
When I did the CEO Forum acouple of weeks ago, which
brings together all my members,I pulled up a PowerPoint
presentation that has all thenational reviews, and there's
(14:25):
nine concurrent simultaneousnational reviews happening at
the moment, and then in NewSouth Wales we've got another 10
.
So between the state and thefederal government.
We've got some 20 differentreviews that are happening
simultaneously and any time Ispeak to a bureaucrat or a
minister I say stop, no morereviews, no more commissions, no
more inquiries.
How about we just implementsome of the recommendations on
(14:47):
any of those reviews that havebeen conducted?
So sometimes it's cheaper toconduct a commission or an
inquiry.
Or everyone wants it with theirbranding and their you know,
labour government or the Liberalgovernment.
It's just like politicalnonsense.
You know it's the typicalutopia.
Often I watch Utopia because Ilove it on ABC and I just see
myself in that so much because Ijust think we just play these
(15:10):
games and we're playing withpeople's lives.
You know this is ridiculous.
Karenza Louis-Smith (15:13):
It is people's lives and I think you
know families would be saying toyou I don't care about any of
those things, or the stats orthe numbers or the money.
I just want to know that ifsomeone that I love in my family
needs mental health supports, Ican get it.
I can get it close to home, Ican get the supports I need,
whether it's for an eatingdisorder, anorexia, bulimia,
whether it's, you know, for ayoung person has got you know,
(15:35):
significant anxiety in theirlives, or someone with a lower
prevalence disorder likeschizophrenia.
You'd want to know that you canget that support now.
Dr Evelyne Tadros (15:44):
Absolutely, and the challenge is that it can
be really hard, even as someonewho's in the system.
I often get inquiries fromdifferent people and one of the
challenges that I'm experiencingthis week is who has drug use
and mental health challenges andnobody will have a bar of it
(16:13):
because they're like go sort outthe mental health issue first,
then we'll deal with the drugissue, or we'll deal with the
drug issue, then we'll deal withthe mental health issues.
Like no, no, the person needsto be seen holistically for who
they are, where they are, wherethey're at today, in their
circumstances, not to fit intopigeonhole services.
So it is really hard for peopleto access the right services
(16:33):
and if you are isolated or ifyou can't afford it, or if
you're in regional New SouthWales or if you have other
compounding factors, it makes itimpossible to access.
My mother is an NDIS participantwho experiences physical and
mental health challenges and youknow I'm in the sector.
So between my sister and I wetry and support her as best we
(16:54):
can, and it's not easy.
It's definitely not easy.
We see it day in, day out, notjust with our mum but also with
other members of the communitywho just happen to.
We're obviously not a servicedelivery and we don't do direct
services.
But people contact us and thenwe re-divert as best we can.
Karenza Louis-Smith (17:12):
I mean, Emily and I often talk about it
as like a bowl of spaghetti.
You know, it's like you'retrying to navigate your way
through the stuff Messy.
It's really hard.
You're very messy, and you'reright, I think.
Even if you work in it it'sreally difficult.
You know, I suppose the burningplatform in New South Wales, of
course, is, you know, the BondiJunction inquest as well.
That's coming up now as welltoo.
You know, and I suppose thatpaints a picture as to what can
(17:35):
happen when someone does fallthrough the gaps and cracks in
the service system wheresupports aren't there.
I imagine that's going to bepretty stark when those findings
are handed down as well.
Dr Evelyne Tadros (17:49):
Yeah, I understand the findings will be
handed down in December thisyear.
So we'll be watching andlistening and seeing what we can
contribute to any of thefindings and the gaps that are
identified there, but certainlyjurisdictional gaps between
state and territories, andthat's something the federal
health and mental healthministers have recently been
speaking about.
In terms of data sharing andhow do we do that better?
(18:10):
Certainly in New South Wales, Isit on the Central East Sydney
Primary Health Network regionalplanning and they're looking at
how do they better share dataacross Central East Sydney and
inform which is the New SouthWales Health Data Centre, and
they're just about to finalise ashared data agreement between
those two parties, just so thatin central East Sydney you can
(18:32):
start to share data and it'll bede-identified.
It's more just aggregated dataso you can start to see themes
and patterns, but it's a start.
There needs to be data sharing.
We obviously need to protectthe privacy and confidentiality
of individuals, but how do webetter service individuals
holistically if everyone's onthe same data set and it's the
(18:53):
same with police?
Police are the ones that getcalled out when there's an
emergency and the situation isescalating, but they don't have
the same data as health, forinstance.
So ambulance officers wouldhave different data set to what
police have.
So what opportunities are there?
I mean, obviously we just gotto navigate the challenging
bureaucracy that exists in termsof, you know, different data
(19:16):
sets for different parts of theorganisation.
Karenza Louis-Smith (19:19):
Yeah, they're really powerful
observations.
I mean, we certainly have, youknow, seen and experienced some
of those, I think, challenges inVictoria as well.
Yeah, they're challenging times, so I go with you.
It'd be, you know, sit back andlook very carefully and see
what the inquest actually findsand what recommendations it
might make.
Emily Webb (19:37):
We've touched on this a little bit, Eveline, but
we mentioned again.
We spoke to Philippa Thomas,the CEO of Mental Health
Victoria, about the need todefine investment to address
unmet needs for psychosocialsupport outside the NDIS, which
is a very big issue right nowand the statistics say there's
(19:57):
about half a million Australiansmissing out on psychosocial
support.
So, along with yourcounterparts in other states,
you wrote an open letter to thegovernment to act on this.
So what do you think is thesolution?
What should the federalgovernment be doing to support
the states in this?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (20:16):
I feel like this could be another hour
podcast in and of itself, butlet's give it a shot.
So the health and mental healthministers met in Melbourne on
the 13th of June to discuss keyissues around the national
mental health reform.
The jurisdictions agreed tocertain steps in child and youth
mental health, unmet need forpsychosocial supports and
(20:39):
developing the mental healthworkforce.
They recognised the importanceof listening directly to lived
experience representatives whichwas really positive, and I know
Mental Health Australia had astrong position and a strong
participation in that and toalso consult more broadly with
the sector.
They also agreed to respond tothe profound and increasing
impact of mental healthchallenges.
It's just the how they're goingto do that.
(21:01):
That will be a challenge.
The ministers reaffirmed theirshared responsibility for
psychosocial supports, and bythat it means the Commonwealth
and the states agreed to allcome to the party to contribute
in terms of how they're going tomeet crucial service needs.
But they agreed to do thatthrough the National Mental
Health and Suicide PreventionAgreement, which comes to a
(21:22):
conclusion in June next year,and the Productivity Commission
will soon release their finalreport and findings.
The ministers also committed tomaintain existing funding for
psychosocial supports which,quite frankly, is insufficient
because the demand, as you saidearlier, emily, is half a
million unmet need betweensevere and moderate.
Yet we're going to maintain theservices until we come up with
(21:42):
this agreement sometime nextyear.
So, unfortunately, the meetingoutcomes fell short in terms of
genuine reform needed forcommunities.
We and I certainly stand withMental Health Australia in
continuing to call for allgovernments to come to the table
with tangible actions thatprioritise mental health and
supported by long-terminvestment plans.
(22:05):
I think you know.
You asked me.
You know what are the solutions.
I guess some of my keyrecommendations are that you
know the half a million moderate, severe and unmet need.
There was a group called thePsychosocial Project Group that
were getting together to plan,prepare a plan to address the
unmet need and you know there'salways a plan for a plan for a
(22:27):
plan or there's an inquiry todevelop a plan.
Anyway, I'll just stop beingcynical for a sec.
The call I make is to thatgroup to release the plan but
also ultimately quantify thecost of delivering the plan,
because I think what you do isyou get this, you know wonderful
plan and it's like, okay,nobody actually costs out how
much it's going to require forus to invest in.
(22:48):
So release the plan to meet theunmet need, quantify the plan
and ultimately invest in it,because again you might get a
plan, then you might.
It's a bit like the nationalstigma and discrimination
strategy.
It was a wonderful resourcedeveloped and then God knows
where it's sitting In terms ofCommonwealth stuff and the
jurisdictional.
(23:09):
I would say release the plan,quantify the plan and ultimately
invest in the plan in terms ofrolling out what the plan will
do.
The other part of me I try andalways put the hat of the
ministers on and I wonderwhether or not the states and
territories are unwilling tocommit the 50-50 funds with the
Commonwealth until they knowwhat are they actually
(23:30):
committing to and what serviceswill they get for their
commitments.
You know, someone says to youyou need to invest a million
dollars or a billion dollars.
Well, what am I investing in?
What is that going to produce?
Right now they're saying allthe states and territories need
to come to the party, butthey're not clear about what
they need to come to the partywith.
So again, release the plan andthe quantification and that
might also assist states andterritories to understand what
(23:52):
they're committing to.
The other thing just veryquickly, that I think a lot of
people have been burnt by theNDIS.
A lot of the states andterritories had to cut back a
lot of their own state-basedprograms to invest in the NDIS.
And now, 10 years later, theNDIS is scaling back and leaving
(24:12):
the states to respond to thisgaping hole left behind.
So a lot of states andterritories and community
members are saying you know, wehave these wonderful programs
and you folded them because yousaid you were going to invest it
in the NDIS.
And now you know there's NDIStaking out these psychosocial
services and they're going to,you know, do these foundational
supports and that's going to cutout people in the long term.
(24:34):
So we need to understand whatit is we're going to invest in
and make sure that commitment isclear.
And the last thing I'd sayaround federal government is
workforce, workforce, workforce,workforce.
We can talk about all theprograms under the sun, but
unless we have investment in theworkforce, we're not going to
get anywhere.
And I would emphasise workforcemust, must, must include the
(24:55):
community managed organisations.
The federal government releasedthe National Mental Health
Workforce Strategy for 2022 to2032, and it didn't explicitly
call out the community managedsector.
So I would say, therefore, it'ssilent on it.
Mhcc does a workforce profilereport every two years, so we've
got six years' worth of dataand, based on our data, we make
(25:18):
up a quarter of the mentalhealth workforce in New South
Wales.
So you've got these wonderfulnational strategies.
That is missing a quarter ofthe workforce.
So you know we identified asolutions paper late last year
that it's not rocket science,but we talked about things like
workforce recruitment, retention, career promotion and pathways,
(25:39):
training and educationconditions and REM.
It has to be equitable with ourprivate health colleagues or
our government health colleagues.
So our staff leave our sectorto go to the public health
system because they pay better.
So there's 10 top tips andwe're calling on the government
to invest 10 years so that wemake sure the workforce is there
to meet the demand.
Emily Webb (26:01):
Eveline, a bit more about you.
You were recently given thetitle of Adjunct Associate
Professor at the University ofNew South Wales in the Faculty
of Medicine School of ClinicalMedicine, discipline of
Psychiatry and Mental Health.
Can you tell us about that andyour work and what that's
contributing to the sector, likewhat you're really passionate
(26:21):
about right now?
I mean, apart from the stuffyou've been speaking to us about
now?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (26:26):
Look, emily, I think I'm still grappling with
the school and the disciplineand the title and it just feels
like I'm making my emailsignature even longer.
But, jokes aside, and it'sreally interesting that you
asked the question, emily, afterwe've just spoken about
workforce, because for me, Isometimes think about this role
in terms of all our workforceadvocacy and you know, just
privately, I've reflected on myjourney and for those of you
following me on LinkedIn, I wassharing that.
(26:47):
You know, just privately, I'vereflected on my journey and for
those of you following me onLinkedIn, I was sharing that.
You know I'm the classic kidfrom southwest Sydney who spent
most of my school years in whatthey call ESL classes English as
a second language and my year10 English teacher, who also
happened to be our careersadvisor everyone had duplicate
roles back then once told methat they'd never make it to uni
(27:09):
and you know, fast forward andgot a couple of degrees in this
honorary title and it'scertainly clearly personally
validating.
But more importantly, how doesit help me to contribute to the
mental health system nationallyand and in the state?
And one of my favorite quotesis from Theodore Roosevelt that
talks about the man in the arenaand the sentiments are
(27:29):
basically that you have to be inthe circle rather than sitting
on the outside critiquing, andso the sentiments resonate
deeply with me because itemphasises the value of actively
participating and striving forchange rather than just merely
critiquing from the sidelines.
I think Brene Brown calls itthe cheap seats.
You know, when you're sittingat the cheap seats and you're
(27:53):
sitting there and you're cussingand you're cursing at the
person who's not getting theball in the chute or whatever
the case might be, you knowyou've got to be in it to win it
, I guess.
So how do I see myself ascontributing?
Well, there's a couple ofthings.
I've already started deliveringsome lectures for a mental
health practice post-grad thatthey're doing at the University
of New South Wales, and sodelivering lectures and
collaborating on curriculumdesign.
(28:14):
So there's ambitions forUniversity of New South Wales to
do some more master's degreesin mental health and more
postgraduate degrees in mentalhealth.
So I can bring the lens of theCMO sector, which for me is
really exciting.
So it's not just aboutpsychiatrists and psychiatry,
it's about psychiatristspotentially in the community
managed organisations.
So a number of our organisationmembers employ psychiatrists
(28:37):
within the organisation.
So how they collaborate in thatspace, how they collaborate
with GP networks, how do theycollaborate with PHNs and LHDs.
It's bringing the whole mentalhealth system together in some
sense.
So being trauma informed, whatI can bring to that role is also
just the peer workforce andcertainly things around mental
health system reform.
(28:58):
So research and policydiscussions.
I'll contribute to what theycall applied and transactional
research.
So you can often do researchand then you have to, you should
be implementing it in practice.
Or sometimes it's what practicecan inform research.
So if we've got great servicesout there, how can we get them
evidence-based so that they canstart to inform research?
(29:19):
It's practice to research,research to practice.
If you can imagine a circle andI'm in front of a whiteboard,
that's what I would be drawingup for you.
But a lot of my work in thatresearch component will also be
with MindGardens, theneuroscience network, on their
psychosis flagship program andyou know, I guess just mentoring
students as they're comingthrough so that they choose
(29:41):
mental health as a specialty.
I mean, I'm only a couple ofmonths into this role but maybe
in year twos and three I canstart to branch out to
psychology and social work aswell and start to work with
those departments, not justpsychiatry.
But it's a great opportunityfor the sector to lift up the
voice of the CMO sector.
Emily Webb (29:59):
I'd love to be in one of your lectures, Evelyne.
I think you sound like you'd befantastic.
Karenza Louis-Smith (30:03):
Very passionate.
I'd be babbling on much like Iam now.
Evelyne, I think you nailed itabout workforce.
You know it's huge, isn't it?
I mean you can't.
The sector can't make thesechanges, it can't do these
things without a workforce.
You know how do you get peopleto be excited about coming into
mental health, what do thosecareer pathways look like, and
how does that support as wellthe kind of lived and living
(30:26):
experience movement too?
So I'm keen to hear a bit more,because you've launched a new
accredited mental health peernavigation course in New South
Wales starting in July.
It's a sector first initiativeand it's offering limited free
places for New South Wales peersand lived and living experience
workers.
As for our listeners, let'sjust touch on what's the lived
and living experience worker?
(30:47):
How's that different, or is itthe same as a peer worker, and
what's the programme?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (30:51):
Okay, lots there.
So let me take a step back.
Ten years ago MHCC MentalHealth Coordinating Council
pioneered the Certificate IV inmental health peer work and you
know that's been a wonderfulprogram to lift the voice of
lived experience, livedexperience workers and peer
workers.
It can largely be the samething and now, as you've alluded
(31:16):
to, we're thrilled to announceor introduce the peer navigator
program, mental health peernavigator program, which is a
new accredited program designedfor peer workers and delivered
by individuals with livedexperience in mental health
challenges and peer workers.
So all our trainers are notonly TAE training, assessment,
evaluation I think it isqualified but they're also
(31:37):
people with lived experience andhave been peer workers
themselves.
So it's really exciting notonly to deliver this program, we
got funding from the New SouthWales Mental Health Commission
to scope out that program, so todesign that program.
So we designed it and we put iton scope so it's nationally
available under the ASQAregistration.
(31:57):
And peer navigation is anemerging and distinct role
within peer work.
That is a response to extensivefindings about the challenges
for consumers in findingsupports with a complex mental
health service system, as Emilywas talking about earlier.
You know, trying to findservices in the system is, first
and foremost, one of the mostchallenging parts.
(32:17):
Once you get in there, you'vegot to navigate the ups and
downs of recovery, but justfinding the right service in the
first place is one of thebiggest challenges.
So we've been proud to lead thedevelopment and co-production
of the course and it's based on,as I said before, those four
key things that I keep talkingabout recovery oriented.
And, as I said before, thosefour key things that I keep
(32:39):
talking about, recovery oriented, consumer led, trauma informed.
I'm going to add five it'shuman rights and probably
supported decision making.
You know kind of got to have amantra of five different things
that we go around talking aboutin terms of the programs that we
deliver and the ways of working.
So it's about connecting peoplewith the right supports at the
right time in the right place.
The course was also developedand co-produced with people with
(32:59):
lived experience, peer workers,key advocates, to ensure it
spoke to the needs of those withmental health challenges.
So it's pivotal and we'reexcited to accelerate it and to
support the workforce through it.
Karenza Louis-Smith (33:12):
And you're offering free places as well.
So I mean, if people have youknow, lived and living
experience and listening and youknow thinking about what's a
career pathway into mentalhealth, how can I, you know, use
my own experience?
This is a massive opportunityfor people to kind of put their
hand up and be part of this.
How do people find out more ofEvelina and get involved?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (33:30):
Yeah, it's a good question, Karenza, and I
think there's a couple of things.
So I have this in my head.
Doesn't exist elsewhere, but inmy head.
I have this kind of blow ofwhere to start.
If you're starting out fresh inthe sector, peer navigator is
probably a good one to startwith, and then going to like a
certificate for in mental health, peer work.
And then we've also gotsomething called peer work
(33:52):
leadership.
So that's for people who'vebeen peer workers for a while
and now all of a sudden they'vegot supervision responsibilities
.
So all our courses often have,at different times of the year,
fully funded spots available andthen, when fully funded spots
have been taken up, you can getfee-for-service arrangements, so
getting your employer to fundit.
(34:12):
All the information isavailable on our website,
mhccorgau.
If you just click on trainingand go through all the material
there, you'll be able to seewhich positions have the funded
spots and which ones require feefor services.
Karenza Louis-Smith (34:26):
And we'll put that in the show notes as
well, so people can have a look.
Emily Webb (34:29):
We certainly will.
Karenza Louis-Smith (34:30):
Key navigators you talk about that.
It's a really interestingconcept, isn't it?
And you said it's quite new.
And my understanding tell me ifyou think I'm right or wrong is
that you know, when you firstcome into a mental health
service, you can actually meetwith a peer navigator.
This is someone with lived orliving experience, who's
experienced what it's like to bein the mental health service
system and actually walksalongside you and helps to
(34:51):
support you to navigate, to getto the supports that you need.
Certainly, that's how Iunderstand it in Victoria.
Is it similar in New SouthWales, or is it different?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (35:00):
Spot on.
That's exactly how it is.
Carenza, Well done.
Karenza Louis-Smith (35:04):
Thank you, and I just think that's what a
powerful thing, hey, to be ableto walk into a service.
And here's someone you know,when you might be at a really
low point in your life, you know, maybe seeking help for the
very first time, here's someonethat's kind of been there,
navigated it, done it, and youcan think there's a sense of
hope for me.
You know I'm not alone.
This is someone who understandsmaybe where I'm at and you know
(35:26):
I can.
Yeah, I've got some hope thatI'm going to get there.
I'm going to get to a placethat feels a bit better than
where I'm feeling at the moment.
Dr Evelyne Tadros (35:33):
Absolutely.
I think just having someone towalk with you alongside until
you get to the right supportservices is a wonderful thing.
It's a bit like having anavigator in your car.
Right, you're the driver,you're responsible for your life
, you're in charge or should be,of your choices that you are
able to make, and the navigatorjust helps you to go.
(35:54):
Look, you've got a couple ofdifferent routes that you can
take to get to the city.
You can either go the m5, oryou can go the m4, or you can go
down canterbury road or you cango down him highway.
You can tell I live insouthwest sydney, so it uh, you
know it's not too dissimilar towhat you would have as a
navigator in the car.
Peer navigator is someone withlived experience who's navigated
the system themselves and hasalso, you know, added tools to
(36:17):
their toolbox to be able to helpothers navigate the system.
Karenza Louis-Smith (36:20):
I just think that's massive.
You know, and so you know Imean you were talking about got
150 members now of MHCC.
What are community leaders andadvocates telling you
specifically?
I mean, you've just hosted youmentioned your big leaders forum
.
You know you had a lot of theright people in the room.
You also host as well, and Iwas fascinated by this.
(36:41):
You know you've got theparliamentary friends of you
know, so you bring key peoplefrom government into these
conversations as well.
What are you hearing and whatare the top maybe two or three
things that you know.
If anyone listening has powerto do some of these things, what
is the sector saying is themost important things to be
putting effort, time, attentioninto?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (37:00):
Carence.
I'm not going to answer yourquestion by giving you two.
I will struggle to narrow awhole day down to two, but let
me share a couple of things thatcame out of it.
The Minister for Mental Health,the Honourable Rose Jackson,
addressed the group with keypriorities that she sees for the
New South Wales government,which would be useful for your
listeners to hear about, whichincluded Medicare, mental health
(37:23):
centres, safe havens,psychosocial support and housing
, which is similar to thecommunity living support program
that I spoke about earlier,crisis helplines and the whole
of government approach tosuicide prevention, which is an
upcoming legislation thatParliament is currently looking
at.
So that's Minister Jackson'skey priorities and her
(37:45):
government's key priorities.
The forum served, I guess, asvital platform for community
leaders to address key issueswith the health minister, but
included things like housingintersections with housing,
youth detention and theintegration of mental health
services across the servicesystem.
So I think that's alwaysimportant to think about that.
(38:05):
Mental health intersects withalmost everything that goes on,
whether it's prenatal, whetherit's schoolyard bullying or
whether it's aged care and endof life.
Mental health intersects withso many different other service
systems.
One of the real standoutpresentations for me was from
the wonderful Jessica Radican,who is the first principal
(38:28):
statewide peer lived experienceworkforce officer that's a
mouthful, but she works for theNew South Wales Ministry of
Health, who talked about thegreat work that's being
progressed to integrate peerworkers across the mental health
service system.
So they're coming up with astatewide strategy for peer
workers and we also got somefunding from that department as
(38:48):
well for the scholarships thatwe spoke a little bit about
earlier, those fully funded freespaces for peer navigator and
the certificate for mentalhealth.
Those scholarships came fromthe department as part of their
strategy.
And the last thing that I'llshare about what happened in the
CEO Forum is I guess I was alsoable to provide an update on
the mental health system reforms, both nationally and within the
(39:09):
state, and reflect on the over40 submissions that we've made
thus far this financial year.
And I know the financial yearis not over yet, but Corin
Henderson is my Director forSystems and Policy Reform and
myself and Katie Sam between twoof us and a little bit of Katie
we've written over 40submissions.
So we've certainly been busyand all of our submissions for
(39:31):
your listeners can be found onour website, so check it out.
But the other thing that'sreally useful is that I was also
able to talk about broadersystemic reform issues and
there's four key ones that I'vebeen working with other sector
colleagues.
One is the Portable LongService Leave Scheme, which is
available for all communityworkers and there's all these
(39:51):
other conditions but PortableLong Service Leave Scheme.
There's something called securejobs funding certainty, which is
a state government commitmentto, I guess, three key pillars,
was to focus on long-termfunding arrangements, so
five-year contracts to be issuedwhich will help the workforce
stuff that we've been talkingabout.
A funding framework whichincludes things like a pricing
(40:13):
approach or some assumptionsaround pricing, and a whole of
government pre-qualificationschemes.
So secure jobs fundingcertainly was the second one.
The third one was aroundworkers' comp reform, which has
certainly been garnering a lotof momentum at the moment and
there is a real desire to seereform, but making sure the
system supports those withpsychological claims and also
(40:35):
makes the system viable.
System supports those withpsychological claims and also
makes the system viable.
And the last broader sectorreform issue that I've been
focusing on is the Shads Review,which is the main award that
many of our frontline staffwould be under and there is some
significant reviews happeningunder that that we've been
participating in.
We've certainly made somesubmissions around, so the CEO
Forum is a good opportunity tobring everyone together.
(40:56):
It was great to have MinisterJackson there, great to have all
our colleagues together, andthe other thing is that the New
South Wales Mental HealthCommissioner held a workshop
following our CEO Forum to alsostart to talk about the New
South Wales mental healthstrategy, which is a whole of
government strategy that isunderway in terms of development
, and you can have your saythrough the website.
(41:17):
If you just go to the New SouthWales Mental Health Commission
website, you'll be able to findlinks to have your say about
what should be included in thenext 10-year strategy.
Emily Webb (41:25):
Yeah, thanks for that.
We'll certainly share that inthe show notes, because it is
really important for communityengagement for people to
actually contribute to thesethings.
We saw that in Victoria withour Royal Commission.
But, eveline, there's just somuch going on.
I can't believe we've done 40submissions in this past
financial year, which is notover.
So absolute hats off to you.
Dr Evelyne Tadros (41:48):
Thank you.
That's why this is great, thatthis is digital, so nobody can
see the gray hairs.
Emily Webb (41:54):
Yeah, like amazing things when it's audio and
editing and stuff.
But honestly, there's so muchthat you've spoken about and
Carenza and I just want to thankyou so much for your time and
the opportunity to get thisinformation out for people to
hear.
So thank you so much, eveline.
Dr Evelyne Tadros (42:12):
Thank you, and I'll just finish off by
saying, if you're not already amember of Mental Health
Coordinating Council, Iencourage you to consider doing
so, and membership informationis available on our website,
mhccorgau, and you can also signup to our weekly newsletters,
which is available for free.
But thank you, emily andCarenza, it's been great
chatting with you and I wish youall the best.
Karenza Louis-Smith (42:30):
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Thanks, Eveline, You've beenlistening to Get Real talking
Absolute pleasure.
David (42:33):
Thanks, eveline.
You've been listening to GetReal talking mental health and
disability, brought to you bythe team at Irma 365.
Get Real is produced andpresented by Emily Webb with
Corenza Louis-Smith and specialguests.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
Get Real is recorded on the unceded lands of the Boon,
Wurrung and Wurundjeri peoplesof the Kulin Nation.
We acknowledge and pay ourrespects to their elders, past
and present.
We also acknowledge that theFirst Peoples of Australia are
the first storytellers, thefirst artists and the first
creators of culture and wecelebrate their enduring
(00:21):
connections to country.
Knowledge and stories celebratetheir enduring connections to
country knowledge and stories.
David (00:28):
Welcome to Get Real talking.
Mental health and disabilitybrought to you by the team at
ermha 365.
ermha365 (00:34):
Join our hosts, Emily Webb and Karenza Louis-Smith, as
we have frank and fearlessconversations with special
guests about all things mentalhealth and complexity with
special guests about all thingsmental health and complexity.
Casey (00:49):
We recognise people with lived experience of mental ill
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We recognise their strength,courage and unique perspective
as a vital contribution to thispodcast so we can learn, grow
and achieve better outcomestogether.
Emily Webb (01:13):
Welcome to Get Real talking mental health and
disability.
I'm Emily Webb, erma 365 CEO.
Carenza Louis-Smith is here too, and we are very excited to be
speaking to Dr Eveline Tadros,the CEO of the Mental Health
Coordinating Council in NewSouth Wales, a peak member-based
organisation for the communitymental health sector, and it's
(01:36):
also a registered trainingorganisation.
Eveline is a Board Directorwith Mental Health Australia St
John Ambulance, new South Wales,and is on the board of Risk
Governance and NominationsCommittee for St Vincent de Paul
in New South Wales.
She has a doctorate degree inhealth science, behavioural and
(01:56):
community health and iscommitted to supporting
individuals and communities tothrive through systemic change
and collaborative influence andaction.
Eveline is driven to advocatefor mental health reform for and
with people with livedexperience of mental health
conditions, along with theircarers, and in championing the
(02:17):
work of community managedorganisations.
Now the mental health system inNew South Wales has been in the
spotlight of recent months.
Abc's recent Four Cornersepisode Emergency about the
state's mental health systemhighlighted some extreme system
failures that happen when thereis an underinvestment in
(02:38):
community-based mental healthcare.
The program highlighted thatpeople in deep psychological
distress are being left inemergency departments for days,
only to be sent home without thecare they desperately need.
Health workers are exhausted,psychiatrists are walking away
and the missing middle those toounwell for a GP but not sick
(02:59):
enough for hospital are beingleft behind.
So we'll be talking withEveline about where the mental
health system reform is at inNew South Wales.
Karenza Louis-Smith (03:10):
Eveline, it's fantastic to have you here
as part of Get Real.
Can we just start talking alittle bit about the Mental
Health Coordinating Council,MHCC?
Can you start by telling us abit about the role and the work
of the council and what you do,please?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (03:24):
Of course.
Well, first of all, thanks forhaving us, carenza.
It's great to be able to talkto your listeners about the
Mental Health CoordinatingCouncil and everything that's
happening in the mental healthspace.
Mental Health CoordinatingCouncil, also fondly known as
MHCC, is the peak bodypredominantly for community
managed mental healthorganisations, or what we call
CMOs in New South Wales.
(03:45):
We're also a registeredtraining organisation delivering
accredited and non-accreditedtraining programs.
We represent community-basednon-government organisations who
support people living withmental health challenges.
We've got about 150 membersassisting people who live well
in the community by delivering arange of psychosocial supports,
including socialconnection-based programs,
(04:06):
rehabilitation and clinicalservices.
We're also involved in policyleadership, promoting
legislative reform and systemicchange, and we work closely with
Mental Health Australia onmatters of national interest to
the sector, includingcross-government collaboration,
bilat agreements and the NDIS,and we also work with the New
South Wales Mental HealthAlliance, which is a partnership
(04:27):
of state-based peak bodies andprofessional associations, on
matters of mutual interest inNew South Wales.
Emily Webb (04:34):
Now Evelyne.
Recently on ABC Four Corners,doctors and frontline health
workers in New South Wales toldsome pretty dramatic stories.
They can't stay silent anymore.
They're warning they'rewitnessing the collapse of
public mental health care in thestate.
Cctv and internal figuresshowed patients in crisis, some
(04:56):
waiting four days for care inone of the country's busiest
emergency departments, andthey're saying the delays are
fueling violence and unsafedischarges, and it painted a
very grim picture.
Is this the reality that youare seeing and hearing about as
the CEO of the MHCC?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (05:14):
Thanks, emily .
Look, it's a really complicatedsituation, and fixing the New
South Wales mental health systemat breaking point requires more
than confronting images ofemergency departments and
stigmatising portrayals ofpeople experiencing mental
health challenges in distress.
It demands investment in thecommunity-based mental health
services that prevent crisis inthe first place.
(05:35):
What often gets overlooked, Iguess, is that the most
effective and underfunded partof the solution is what MHCC has
reiterated repeatedly thatunless we invest in
community-based mental healthcare, a continued over-reliance
on emergency and acute serviceswill perpetuate a system in
constant crisis.
The New South Wales mentalhealth system is in crisis not
(05:57):
because we lack solutions, butbecause we continue to
under-invest in the parts of theservice system that work
Community-based mental healthmodels, such as step-up,
step-down programs that focus onpeople's recovery before crisis
occurs.
You know, I've always saidthings like prevention is better
than cure, so putting things atthe front end rather than back
(06:18):
end of the system is what wewould support.
Community-managed programs arekey to minimising the need for
inpatient admissions andproviding cost-effective
wraparound supports.
That evidence has clearly shownto have lasting positive
outcomes both for individualsand the community.
These programs offer safetransitions to and from services
(06:38):
and parts of the service systembut, most importantly, offer
services that minimise the needfor emergency interventions and
reduce risk of involuntaryorders and engagement with
police and the criminal justicesystem.
Whilst we acknowledge theextreme challenges experienced
by individuals, their carers andstaff in emergency settings and
that is real what we need toaddress is the systemic issues
(06:59):
that exist, includinginsufficient workforce, both
inside and outside the publicservice system.
Right, so it's not just aboutthe psychiatrists and the
workforce issues that they'refacing, it's also about what our
cmo sector experiences, andobviously we would just continue
to advocate for you know the Ithink it's the four classics
human-centered, trauma-informed,recovery oriented and you know,
(07:21):
now we're certainly starting topush the agenda of supported
decision making, so people justhave to have access to
wraparound services that meettheir psychological needs, based
on the social determinants ofhealth and cultural diversity.
First Nations and support thathelps carers and families must
be part of the mix.
Karenza Louis-Smith (07:41):
So, eveline kind of, I think what you're
describing is when someone'slooking for kind of supports for
mental health.
There's not a lot there.
You've got to get really sickand rock up to ED first, because
the part that you talk aboutand I've read some of the things
that you're saying about themissing middle and that's the
part people who aren't so unwellthat they don't necessarily
(08:02):
need to go into hospital, into amental health bed, but they
need something in the community,and that's the gap that you're
seeing and hearing about.
Is that what I understand to beright?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (08:12):
Absolutely, and it's about that, targeting
prevention and earlyintervention rather than relying
principally on emergencyservices.
We'll build capacity forexisting hospital workforce to
meet the needs of people incrisis and keep them safe until
they're stable and have plans inplace to support them and their
long-term recovery.
Karenza Louis-Smith (08:32):
It's interesting because we chatted
to Pip Thomas, the CEO of MentalHealth Victoria, just a few
weeks ago, just ahead of theVictorian budget, and, as you
know, victoria's had a hugeRoyal Commission into mental
health and they found really thesort of things that you're
describing in New South Wales aservice system that was broken
over, reliance on emergencydepartments, not really any
(08:52):
investment in community basedmental health and that people,
when they needed access tomental health services and
supports, weren't getting it.
You know you had to becomereally, really unwell before you
could get the sort of supportsthat you needed from a state
government funded mental healthservice system.
So it's interesting that NewSouth Wales could have had a
good look at what's happened inVictoria and gone OK.
(09:14):
You know we don't want to godown the same path and make the
same mistakes, but thatobviously isn't happening.
I mean, you're quite strong inyour views.
Crisis management isn't theanswer.
You know you're saying thesystem is broken that's
certainly what the RoyalCommission has heard in Victoria
and a strong need to invest inwhat they call mental health and
wellbeing hubs across the wholeof the state where people could
(09:35):
walk in without an appointment,without need you know, and just
to be able to actuallyimmediately get access to mental
health supports.
Is that the sort of thing thatyou're wanting to see in New
South Wales, or are you talkingabout different types of
investment or different things?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (09:49):
Look, I think the New South Wales government
needs to seriously invest in theentire mental health system
Tinkering around the edges andthe band-aid solutions on offer
are unviable both in terms ofsustainability, monetarily, as
well as just in terms of theworkforce.
So we need multidisciplinarycommunity care teams to engage
with people, as I keep saying,prior to crisis, that
(10:12):
facilitates their transitionback into the community.
Step-up, step-down models thatprovide short-term residential
mental health programs to helppeople avoid or reduce hospital
stays or transition them backinto community after inpatient
care.
These voluntary, accessibleservices offer a safe,
supportive space focused onrecovery and independence, and I
(10:34):
guess I could give you a coupleof examples of those, if that's
okay.
The Prevention and RecoveryCentre, for example, I think,
was launched a couple of monthsago.
The report and the outcomesreport of that and it's shown to
reduce emergency departmentpresentations by 33% to 44% and
cost one third of inpatient care.
(10:56):
So I'm just going to repeatthose stats again it's reducing
emergency departmentpresentations by 33% to 44% and
it costs one third of inpatientcare.
We've got another example of the.
It used to be called theHousing and Support Initiative,
also commonly known as HAZI, butit's also known as Community
Living Support.
They've got kind of dual namesbut they deliver the same thing.
(11:18):
They support people out ofhospital to appropriate
community-based livingenvironments and that program
showed a 74% reduction inhospital admissions and the
length of stay in hospitaldecreased by 75 over two years,
75% over two years.
So we've got some really greatevidence-based programs that
work.
Yet the investment seems minimalin those has.
(11:42):
E would have been arguing forthat program to be increased to
at least 2,000 more to support2,000 more individuals, but we
can certainly get more peoplesupporting that if there was the
willingness to increase thefunding in that space.
And the Prevention and RecoveryCentre, where there's only two
of those programs in New SouthWales.
So there are, as I keep saying,evidence-based programs at work
(12:03):
.
The other thing that I'd commendis also the work of Mental
Health Australia.
They did a great piece of workwhich MHCC was involved in, and
it was their advice togovernments on evidence-informed
and good practice psychosocialservices that we contend the
Australian government shouldfund to address the gap in
psychosocial services outsidethe NDIS.
(12:23):
It's a comprehensive piece ofwork.
So we've got the evidence ofwhat works.
We just need the willingnessand the political will.
I'd say not even thewillingness, the political will
and investment.
You know we talk about allthese unmet needs but then we go
from inquiry to commission andwe don't really see the
investment come throughfollowing any of the
recommendations that come out ofany of these inquiries and
(12:46):
reviews that are conducted.
Karenza Louis-Smith (12:47):
So I reckon you know, as taxpayers and
voters, people would belistening to you and wondering
why aren't people listening tothose statistics?
I mean, you've repeated them,they're pretty powerful.
You know for every dollar thatyou're spending in the community
, you're getting people earlyaccess to mental health
treatment.
You know, and I think theevidence shows that the earlier
you know people need supportwhen they need it, when, where
(13:12):
and how.
You know and the quicker youcan get that and the quicker you
can do that and get someone onthat pathway to recovery is an
important thing.
So why do you think it'sfalling on deaf ears?
You know, for want of a betterphrase, it's a good question.
Dr Evelyne Tadros (13:21):
I think they you know I don't envy the
position of politicians becauseI do think they have a lot of
people coming through their doorwith lots of demands, even in
the mental health space.
You know I've heard ministerstalk about a fragmented system,
but I guess that's our job inmany ways to bring together the
community-managed sector to talkand advocate and sing off the
(13:43):
same song sheet and get thosekey messages out there.
And our key message iscommunity-based services work.
And we've got the evidence basefor that.
I've just given the stats ontwo programs.
There's an entire document fromMental Health Australia about
all the other various programsand when we talk about programs
it also goes into what worksbest for children and young
people, what works best forchildren with autism or people
(14:05):
with developmental delays orolder generations with mental
health challenges.
So political will and just theguts to just give something a go
.
When I did the CEO Forum acouple of weeks ago, which
brings together all my members,I pulled up a PowerPoint
presentation that has all thenational reviews, and there's
(14:25):
nine concurrent simultaneousnational reviews happening at
the moment, and then in NewSouth Wales we've got another 10
.
So between the state and thefederal government.
We've got some 20 differentreviews that are happening
simultaneously and any time Ispeak to a bureaucrat or a
minister I say stop, no morereviews, no more commissions, no
more inquiries.
How about we just implementsome of the recommendations on
(14:47):
any of those reviews that havebeen conducted?
So sometimes it's cheaper toconduct a commission or an
inquiry.
Or everyone wants it with theirbranding and their you know,
labour government or the Liberalgovernment.
It's just like politicalnonsense.
You know it's the typicalutopia.
Often I watch Utopia because Ilove it on ABC and I just see
myself in that so much because Ijust think we just play these
(15:10):
games and we're playing withpeople's lives.
You know this is ridiculous.
Karenza Louis-Smith (15:13):
It is people's lives and I think you
know families would be saying toyou I don't care about any of
those things, or the stats orthe numbers or the money.
I just want to know that ifsomeone that I love in my family
needs mental health supports, Ican get it.
I can get it close to home, Ican get the supports I need,
whether it's for an eatingdisorder, anorexia, bulimia,
whether it's, you know, for ayoung person has got you know,
(15:35):
significant anxiety in theirlives, or someone with a lower
prevalence disorder likeschizophrenia.
You'd want to know that you canget that support now.
Dr Evelyne Tadros (15:44):
Absolutely, and the challenge is that it can
be really hard, even as someonewho's in the system.
I often get inquiries fromdifferent people and one of the
challenges that I'm experiencingthis week is who has drug use
and mental health challenges andnobody will have a bar of it
(16:13):
because they're like go sort outthe mental health issue first,
then we'll deal with the drugissue, or we'll deal with the
drug issue, then we'll deal withthe mental health issues.
Like no, no, the person needsto be seen holistically for who
they are, where they are, wherethey're at today, in their
circumstances, not to fit intopigeonhole services.
So it is really hard for peopleto access the right services
(16:33):
and if you are isolated or ifyou can't afford it, or if
you're in regional New SouthWales or if you have other
compounding factors, it makes itimpossible to access.
My mother is an NDIS participantwho experiences physical and
mental health challenges and youknow I'm in the sector.
So between my sister and I wetry and support her as best we
(16:54):
can, and it's not easy.
It's definitely not easy.
We see it day in, day out, notjust with our mum but also with
other members of the communitywho just happen to.
We're obviously not a servicedelivery and we don't do direct
services.
But people contact us and thenwe re-divert as best we can.
Karenza Louis-Smith (17:12):
I mean, Emily and I often talk about it
as like a bowl of spaghetti.
You know, it's like you'retrying to navigate your way
through the stuff Messy.
It's really hard.
You're very messy, and you'reright, I think.
Even if you work in it it'sreally difficult.
You know, I suppose the burningplatform in New South Wales, of
course, is, you know, the BondiJunction inquest as well.
That's coming up now as welltoo.
You know, and I suppose thatpaints a picture as to what can
(17:35):
happen when someone does fallthrough the gaps and cracks in
the service system wheresupports aren't there.
I imagine that's going to bepretty stark when those findings
are handed down as well.
Dr Evelyne Tadros (17:49):
Yeah, I understand the findings will be
handed down in December thisyear.
So we'll be watching andlistening and seeing what we can
contribute to any of thefindings and the gaps that are
identified there, but certainlyjurisdictional gaps between
state and territories, andthat's something the federal
health and mental healthministers have recently been
speaking about.
In terms of data sharing andhow do we do that better?
(18:10):
Certainly in New South Wales, Isit on the Central East Sydney
Primary Health Network regionalplanning and they're looking at
how do they better share dataacross Central East Sydney and
inform which is the New SouthWales Health Data Centre, and
they're just about to finalise ashared data agreement between
those two parties, just so thatin central East Sydney you can
(18:32):
start to share data and it'll bede-identified.
It's more just aggregated dataso you can start to see themes
and patterns, but it's a start.
There needs to be data sharing.
We obviously need to protectthe privacy and confidentiality
of individuals, but how do webetter service individuals
holistically if everyone's onthe same data set and it's the
(18:53):
same with police?
Police are the ones that getcalled out when there's an
emergency and the situation isescalating, but they don't have
the same data as health, forinstance.
So ambulance officers wouldhave different data set to what
police have.
So what opportunities are there?
I mean, obviously we just gotto navigate the challenging
bureaucracy that exists in termsof, you know, different data
(19:16):
sets for different parts of theorganisation.
Karenza Louis-Smith (19:19):
Yeah, they're really powerful
observations.
I mean, we certainly have, youknow, seen and experienced some
of those, I think, challenges inVictoria as well.
Yeah, they're challenging times, so I go with you.
It'd be, you know, sit back andlook very carefully and see
what the inquest actually findsand what recommendations it
might make.
Emily Webb (19:37):
We've touched on this a little bit, Eveline, but
we mentioned again.
We spoke to Philippa Thomas,the CEO of Mental Health
Victoria, about the need todefine investment to address
unmet needs for psychosocialsupport outside the NDIS, which
is a very big issue right nowand the statistics say there's
(19:57):
about half a million Australiansmissing out on psychosocial
support.
So, along with yourcounterparts in other states,
you wrote an open letter to thegovernment to act on this.
So what do you think is thesolution?
What should the federalgovernment be doing to support
the states in this?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (20:16):
I feel like this could be another hour
podcast in and of itself, butlet's give it a shot.
So the health and mental healthministers met in Melbourne on
the 13th of June to discuss keyissues around the national
mental health reform.
The jurisdictions agreed tocertain steps in child and youth
mental health, unmet need forpsychosocial supports and
(20:39):
developing the mental healthworkforce.
They recognised the importanceof listening directly to lived
experience representatives whichwas really positive, and I know
Mental Health Australia had astrong position and a strong
participation in that and toalso consult more broadly with
the sector.
They also agreed to respond tothe profound and increasing
impact of mental healthchallenges.
It's just the how they're goingto do that.
(21:01):
That will be a challenge.
The ministers reaffirmed theirshared responsibility for
psychosocial supports, and bythat it means the Commonwealth
and the states agreed to allcome to the party to contribute
in terms of how they're going tomeet crucial service needs.
But they agreed to do thatthrough the National Mental
Health and Suicide PreventionAgreement, which comes to a
(21:22):
conclusion in June next year,and the Productivity Commission
will soon release their finalreport and findings.
The ministers also committed tomaintain existing funding for
psychosocial supports which,quite frankly, is insufficient
because the demand, as you saidearlier, emily, is half a
million unmet need betweensevere and moderate.
Yet we're going to maintain theservices until we come up with
(21:42):
this agreement sometime nextyear.
So, unfortunately, the meetingoutcomes fell short in terms of
genuine reform needed forcommunities.
We and I certainly stand withMental Health Australia in
continuing to call for allgovernments to come to the table
with tangible actions thatprioritise mental health and
supported by long-terminvestment plans.
(22:05):
I think you know.
You asked me.
You know what are the solutions.
I guess some of my keyrecommendations are that you
know the half a million moderate, severe and unmet need.
There was a group called thePsychosocial Project Group that
were getting together to plan,prepare a plan to address the
unmet need and you know there'salways a plan for a plan for a
(22:27):
plan or there's an inquiry todevelop a plan.
Anyway, I'll just stop beingcynical for a sec.
The call I make is to thatgroup to release the plan but
also ultimately quantify thecost of delivering the plan,
because I think what you do isyou get this, you know wonderful
plan and it's like, okay,nobody actually costs out how
much it's going to require forus to invest in.
(22:48):
So release the plan to meet theunmet need, quantify the plan
and ultimately invest in it,because again you might get a
plan, then you might.
It's a bit like the nationalstigma and discrimination
strategy.
It was a wonderful resourcedeveloped and then God knows
where it's sitting In terms ofCommonwealth stuff and the
jurisdictional.
(23:09):
I would say release the plan,quantify the plan and ultimately
invest in the plan in terms ofrolling out what the plan will
do.
The other part of me I try andalways put the hat of the
ministers on and I wonderwhether or not the states and
territories are unwilling tocommit the 50-50 funds with the
Commonwealth until they knowwhat are they actually
(23:30):
committing to and what serviceswill they get for their
commitments.
You know, someone says to youyou need to invest a million
dollars or a billion dollars.
Well, what am I investing in?
What is that going to produce?
Right now they're saying allthe states and territories need
to come to the party, butthey're not clear about what
they need to come to the partywith.
So again, release the plan andthe quantification and that
might also assist states andterritories to understand what
(23:52):
they're committing to.
The other thing just veryquickly, that I think a lot of
people have been burnt by theNDIS.
A lot of the states andterritories had to cut back a
lot of their own state-basedprograms to invest in the NDIS.
And now, 10 years later, theNDIS is scaling back and leaving
(24:12):
the states to respond to thisgaping hole left behind.
So a lot of states andterritories and community
members are saying you know, wehave these wonderful programs
and you folded them because yousaid you were going to invest it
in the NDIS.
And now you know there's NDIStaking out these psychosocial
services and they're going to,you know, do these foundational
supports and that's going to cutout people in the long term.
(24:34):
So we need to understand whatit is we're going to invest in
and make sure that commitment isclear.
And the last thing I'd sayaround federal government is
workforce, workforce, workforce,workforce.
We can talk about all theprograms under the sun, but
unless we have investment in theworkforce, we're not going to
get anywhere.
And I would emphasise workforcemust, must, must include the
(24:55):
community managed organisations.
The federal government releasedthe National Mental Health
Workforce Strategy for 2022 to2032, and it didn't explicitly
call out the community managedsector.
So I would say, therefore, it'ssilent on it.
Mhcc does a workforce profilereport every two years, so we've
got six years' worth of dataand, based on our data, we make
(25:18):
up a quarter of the mentalhealth workforce in New South
Wales.
So you've got these wonderfulnational strategies.
That is missing a quarter ofthe workforce.
So you know we identified asolutions paper late last year
that it's not rocket science,but we talked about things like
workforce recruitment, retention, career promotion and pathways,
(25:39):
training and educationconditions and REM.
It has to be equitable with ourprivate health colleagues or
our government health colleagues.
So our staff leave our sectorto go to the public health
system because they pay better.
So there's 10 top tips andwe're calling on the government
to invest 10 years so that wemake sure the workforce is there
to meet the demand.
Emily Webb (26:01):
Eveline, a bit more about you.
You were recently given thetitle of Adjunct Associate
Professor at the University ofNew South Wales in the Faculty
of Medicine School of ClinicalMedicine, discipline of
Psychiatry and Mental Health.
Can you tell us about that andyour work and what that's
contributing to the sector, likewhat you're really passionate
(26:21):
about right now?
I mean, apart from the stuffyou've been speaking to us about
now?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (26:26):
Look, emily, I think I'm still grappling with
the school and the disciplineand the title and it just feels
like I'm making my emailsignature even longer.
But, jokes aside, and it'sreally interesting that you
asked the question, emily, afterwe've just spoken about
workforce, because for me, Isometimes think about this role
in terms of all our workforceadvocacy and you know, just
privately, I've reflected on myjourney and for those of you
following me on LinkedIn, I wassharing that.
(26:47):
You know, just privately, I'vereflected on my journey and for
those of you following me onLinkedIn, I was sharing that.
You know I'm the classic kidfrom southwest Sydney who spent
most of my school years in whatthey call ESL classes English as
a second language and my year10 English teacher, who also
happened to be our careersadvisor everyone had duplicate
roles back then once told methat they'd never make it to uni
(27:09):
and you know, fast forward andgot a couple of degrees in this
honorary title and it'scertainly clearly personally
validating.
But more importantly, how doesit help me to contribute to the
mental health system nationallyand and in the state?
And one of my favorite quotesis from Theodore Roosevelt that
talks about the man in the arenaand the sentiments are
(27:29):
basically that you have to be inthe circle rather than sitting
on the outside critiquing, andso the sentiments resonate
deeply with me because itemphasises the value of actively
participating and striving forchange rather than just merely
critiquing from the sidelines.
I think Brene Brown calls itthe cheap seats.
You know, when you're sittingat the cheap seats and you're
(27:53):
sitting there and you're cussingand you're cursing at the
person who's not getting theball in the chute or whatever
the case might be, you knowyou've got to be in it to win it
, I guess.
So how do I see myself ascontributing?
Well, there's a couple ofthings.
I've already started deliveringsome lectures for a mental
health practice post-grad thatthey're doing at the University
of New South Wales, and sodelivering lectures and
collaborating on curriculumdesign.
(28:14):
So there's ambitions forUniversity of New South Wales to
do some more master's degreesin mental health and more
postgraduate degrees in mentalhealth.
So I can bring the lens of theCMO sector, which for me is
really exciting.
So it's not just aboutpsychiatrists and psychiatry,
it's about psychiatristspotentially in the community
managed organisations.
So a number of our organisationmembers employ psychiatrists
(28:37):
within the organisation.
So how they collaborate in thatspace, how they collaborate
with GP networks, how do theycollaborate with PHNs and LHDs.
It's bringing the whole mentalhealth system together in some
sense.
So being trauma informed, whatI can bring to that role is also
just the peer workforce andcertainly things around mental
health system reform.
(28:58):
So research and policydiscussions.
I'll contribute to what theycall applied and transactional
research.
So you can often do researchand then you have to, you should
be implementing it in practice.
Or sometimes it's what practicecan inform research.
So if we've got great servicesout there, how can we get them
evidence-based so that they canstart to inform research?
(29:19):
It's practice to research,research to practice.
If you can imagine a circle andI'm in front of a whiteboard,
that's what I would be drawingup for you.
But a lot of my work in thatresearch component will also be
with MindGardens, theneuroscience network, on their
psychosis flagship program andyou know, I guess just mentoring
students as they're comingthrough so that they choose
(29:41):
mental health as a specialty.
I mean, I'm only a couple ofmonths into this role but maybe
in year twos and three I canstart to branch out to
psychology and social work aswell and start to work with
those departments, not justpsychiatry.
But it's a great opportunityfor the sector to lift up the
voice of the CMO sector.
Emily Webb (29:59):
I'd love to be in one of your lectures, Evelyne.
I think you sound like you'd befantastic.
Karenza Louis-Smith (30:03):
Very passionate.
I'd be babbling on much like Iam now.
Evelyne, I think you nailed itabout workforce.
You know it's huge, isn't it?
I mean you can't.
The sector can't make thesechanges, it can't do these
things without a workforce.
You know how do you get peopleto be excited about coming into
mental health, what do thosecareer pathways look like, and
how does that support as wellthe kind of lived and living
(30:26):
experience movement too?
So I'm keen to hear a bit more,because you've launched a new
accredited mental health peernavigation course in New South
Wales starting in July.
It's a sector first initiativeand it's offering limited free
places for New South Wales peersand lived and living experience
workers.
As for our listeners, let'sjust touch on what's the lived
and living experience worker?
(30:47):
How's that different, or is itthe same as a peer worker, and
what's the programme?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (30:51):
Okay, lots there.
So let me take a step back.
Ten years ago MHCC MentalHealth Coordinating Council
pioneered the Certificate IV inmental health peer work and you
know that's been a wonderfulprogram to lift the voice of
lived experience, livedexperience workers and peer
workers.
It can largely be the samething and now, as you've alluded
(31:16):
to, we're thrilled to announceor introduce the peer navigator
program, mental health peernavigator program, which is a
new accredited program designedfor peer workers and delivered
by individuals with livedexperience in mental health
challenges and peer workers.
So all our trainers are notonly TAE training, assessment,
evaluation I think it isqualified but they're also
(31:37):
people with lived experience andhave been peer workers
themselves.
So it's really exciting notonly to deliver this program, we
got funding from the New SouthWales Mental Health Commission
to scope out that program, so todesign that program.
So we designed it and we put iton scope so it's nationally
available under the ASQAregistration.
(31:57):
And peer navigation is anemerging and distinct role
within peer work.
That is a response to extensivefindings about the challenges
for consumers in findingsupports with a complex mental
health service system, as Emilywas talking about earlier.
You know, trying to findservices in the system is, first
and foremost, one of the mostchallenging parts.
(32:17):
Once you get in there, you'vegot to navigate the ups and
downs of recovery, but justfinding the right service in the
first place is one of thebiggest challenges.
So we've been proud to lead thedevelopment and co-production
of the course and it's based on,as I said before, those four
key things that I keep talkingabout recovery oriented.
And, as I said before, thosefour key things that I keep
(32:39):
talking about, recovery oriented, consumer led, trauma informed.
I'm going to add five it'shuman rights and probably
supported decision making.
You know kind of got to have amantra of five different things
that we go around talking aboutin terms of the programs that we
deliver and the ways of working.
So it's about connecting peoplewith the right supports at the
right time in the right place.
The course was also developedand co-produced with people with
(32:59):
lived experience, peer workers,key advocates, to ensure it
spoke to the needs of those withmental health challenges.
So it's pivotal and we'reexcited to accelerate it and to
support the workforce through it.
Karenza Louis-Smith (33:12):
And you're offering free places as well.
So I mean, if people have youknow, lived and living
experience and listening and youknow thinking about what's a
career pathway into mentalhealth, how can I, you know, use
my own experience?
This is a massive opportunityfor people to kind of put their
hand up and be part of this.
How do people find out more ofEvelina and get involved?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (33:30):
Yeah, it's a good question, Karenza, and I
think there's a couple of things.
So I have this in my head.
Doesn't exist elsewhere, but inmy head.
I have this kind of blow ofwhere to start.
If you're starting out fresh inthe sector, peer navigator is
probably a good one to startwith, and then going to like a
certificate for in mental health, peer work.
And then we've also gotsomething called peer work
(33:52):
leadership.
So that's for people who'vebeen peer workers for a while
and now all of a sudden they'vegot supervision responsibilities
.
So all our courses often have,at different times of the year,
fully funded spots available andthen, when fully funded spots
have been taken up, you can getfee-for-service arrangements, so
getting your employer to fundit.
(34:12):
All the information isavailable on our website,
mhccorgau.
If you just click on trainingand go through all the material
there, you'll be able to seewhich positions have the funded
spots and which ones require feefor services.
Karenza Louis-Smith (34:26):
And we'll put that in the show notes as
well, so people can have a look.
Emily Webb (34:29):
We certainly will.
Karenza Louis-Smith (34:30):
Key navigators you talk about that.
It's a really interestingconcept, isn't it?
And you said it's quite new.
And my understanding tell me ifyou think I'm right or wrong is
that you know, when you firstcome into a mental health
service, you can actually meetwith a peer navigator.
This is someone with lived orliving experience, who's
experienced what it's like to bein the mental health service
system and actually walksalongside you and helps to
(34:51):
support you to navigate, to getto the supports that you need.
Certainly, that's how Iunderstand it in Victoria.
Is it similar in New SouthWales, or is it different?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (35:00):
Spot on.
That's exactly how it is.
Carenza, Well done.
Karenza Louis-Smith (35:04):
Thank you, and I just think that's what a
powerful thing, hey, to be ableto walk into a service.
And here's someone you know,when you might be at a really
low point in your life, you know, maybe seeking help for the
very first time, here's someonethat's kind of been there,
navigated it, done it, and youcan think there's a sense of
hope for me.
You know I'm not alone.
This is someone who understandsmaybe where I'm at and you know
(35:26):
I can.
Yeah, I've got some hope thatI'm going to get there.
I'm going to get to a placethat feels a bit better than
where I'm feeling at the moment.
Dr Evelyne Tadros (35:33):
Absolutely.
I think just having someone towalk with you alongside until
you get to the right supportservices is a wonderful thing.
It's a bit like having anavigator in your car.
Right, you're the driver,you're responsible for your life
, you're in charge or should be,of your choices that you are
able to make, and the navigatorjust helps you to go.
(35:54):
Look, you've got a couple ofdifferent routes that you can
take to get to the city.
You can either go the m5, oryou can go the m4, or you can go
down canterbury road or you cango down him highway.
You can tell I live insouthwest sydney, so it uh, you
know it's not too dissimilar towhat you would have as a
navigator in the car.
Peer navigator is someone withlived experience who's navigated
the system themselves and hasalso, you know, added tools to
(36:17):
their toolbox to be able to helpothers navigate the system.
Karenza Louis-Smith (36:20):
I just think that's massive.
You know, and so you know Imean you were talking about got
150 members now of MHCC.
What are community leaders andadvocates telling you
specifically?
I mean, you've just hosted youmentioned your big leaders forum
.
You know you had a lot of theright people in the room.
You also host as well, and Iwas fascinated by this.
(36:41):
You know you've got theparliamentary friends of you
know, so you bring key peoplefrom government into these
conversations as well.
What are you hearing and whatare the top maybe two or three
things that you know.
If anyone listening has powerto do some of these things, what
is the sector saying is themost important things to be
putting effort, time, attentioninto?
Dr Evelyne Tadros (37:00):
Carence.
I'm not going to answer yourquestion by giving you two.
I will struggle to narrow awhole day down to two, but let
me share a couple of things thatcame out of it.
The Minister for Mental Health,the Honourable Rose Jackson,
addressed the group with keypriorities that she sees for the
New South Wales government,which would be useful for your
listeners to hear about, whichincluded Medicare, mental health
(37:23):
centres, safe havens,psychosocial support and housing
, which is similar to thecommunity living support program
that I spoke about earlier,crisis helplines and the whole
of government approach tosuicide prevention, which is an
upcoming legislation thatParliament is currently looking
at.
So that's Minister Jackson'skey priorities and her
(37:45):
government's key priorities.
The forum served, I guess, asvital platform for community
leaders to address key issueswith the health minister, but
included things like housingintersections with housing,
youth detention and theintegration of mental health
services across the servicesystem.
So I think that's alwaysimportant to think about that.
(38:05):
Mental health intersects withalmost everything that goes on,
whether it's prenatal, whetherit's schoolyard bullying or
whether it's aged care and endof life.
Mental health intersects withso many different other service
systems.
One of the real standoutpresentations for me was from
the wonderful Jessica Radican,who is the first principal
(38:28):
statewide peer lived experienceworkforce officer that's a
mouthful, but she works for theNew South Wales Ministry of
Health, who talked about thegreat work that's being
progressed to integrate peerworkers across the mental health
service system.
So they're coming up with astatewide strategy for peer
workers and we also got somefunding from that department as
(38:48):
well for the scholarships thatwe spoke a little bit about
earlier, those fully funded freespaces for peer navigator and
the certificate for mentalhealth.
Those scholarships came fromthe department as part of their
strategy.
And the last thing that I'llshare about what happened in the
CEO Forum is I guess I was alsoable to provide an update on
the mental health system reforms, both nationally and within the
(39:09):
state, and reflect on the over40 submissions that we've made
thus far this financial year.
And I know the financial yearis not over yet, but Corin
Henderson is my Director forSystems and Policy Reform and
myself and Katie Sam between twoof us and a little bit of Katie
we've written over 40submissions.
So we've certainly been busyand all of our submissions for
(39:31):
your listeners can be found onour website, so check it out.
But the other thing that'sreally useful is that I was also
able to talk about broadersystemic reform issues and
there's four key ones that I'vebeen working with other sector
colleagues.
One is the Portable LongService Leave Scheme, which is
available for all communityworkers and there's all these
(39:51):
other conditions but PortableLong Service Leave Scheme.
There's something called securejobs funding certainty, which is
a state government commitmentto, I guess, three key pillars,
was to focus on long-termfunding arrangements, so
five-year contracts to be issuedwhich will help the workforce
stuff that we've been talkingabout.
A funding framework whichincludes things like a pricing
(40:13):
approach or some assumptionsaround pricing, and a whole of
government pre-qualificationschemes.
So secure jobs fundingcertainly was the second one.
The third one was aroundworkers' comp reform, which has
certainly been garnering a lotof momentum at the moment and
there is a real desire to seereform, but making sure the
system supports those withpsychological claims and also
(40:35):
makes the system viable.
System supports those withpsychological claims and also
makes the system viable.
And the last broader sectorreform issue that I've been
focusing on is the Shads Review,which is the main award that
many of our frontline staffwould be under and there is some
significant reviews happeningunder that that we've been
participating in.
We've certainly made somesubmissions around, so the CEO
Forum is a good opportunity tobring everyone together.
(40:56):
It was great to have MinisterJackson there, great to have all
our colleagues together, andthe other thing is that the New
South Wales Mental HealthCommissioner held a workshop
following our CEO Forum to alsostart to talk about the New
South Wales mental healthstrategy, which is a whole of
government strategy that isunderway in terms of development
, and you can have your saythrough the website.
(41:17):
If you just go to the New SouthWales Mental Health Commission
website, you'll be able to findlinks to have your say about
what should be included in thenext 10-year strategy.
Emily Webb (41:25):
Yeah, thanks for that.
We'll certainly share that inthe show notes, because it is
really important for communityengagement for people to
actually contribute to thesethings.
We saw that in Victoria withour Royal Commission.
But, eveline, there's just somuch going on.
I can't believe we've done 40submissions in this past
financial year, which is notover.
So absolute hats off to you.
Dr Evelyne Tadros (41:48):
Thank you.
That's why this is great, thatthis is digital, so nobody can
see the gray hairs.
Emily Webb (41:54):
Yeah, like amazing things when it's audio and
editing and stuff.
But honestly, there's so muchthat you've spoken about and
Carenza and I just want to thankyou so much for your time and
the opportunity to get thisinformation out for people to
hear.
So thank you so much, eveline.
Dr Evelyne Tadros (42:12):
Thank you, and I'll just finish off by
saying, if you're not already amember of Mental Health
Coordinating Council, Iencourage you to consider doing
so, and membership informationis available on our website,
mhccorgau, and you can also signup to our weekly newsletters,
which is available for free.
But thank you, emily andCarenza, it's been great
chatting with you and I wish youall the best.
Karenza Louis-Smith (42:30):
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Thanks, Eveline, You've beenlistening to Get Real talking
Absolute pleasure.
David (42:33):
Thanks, eveline.
You've been listening to GetReal talking mental health and
disability, brought to you bythe team at Irma 365.
Get Real is produced andpresented by Emily Webb with
Corenza Louis-Smith and specialguests.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
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