Self care, mental health and parenting a neurodivergent child with Donna Markham OAM

Episode Transcript
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ermha365 (00:00):
Get Real is recorded on the unseeded lands of the
Boonwurrung and Wurundjeripeoples of the Kulin Nation.
We acknowledge and pay ourrespects to their elders, past
and present.
We also acknowledge that thefirst peoples of Australia are
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creators of culture, and wecelebrate their enduring

(00:21):
connections to country,knowledge and stories.
Welcome to Get Real talkingmental health and disability
brought to you by the team atermha 365.
Join our hosts Emily Webb andKarenza Louis Smith, as we have
frank and fearless conversationswith special guests about all

(00:42):
things, mental health andcomplexity.
We recognize people with livedexperience of mental health and
disability, as well as theirfamilies and carers.
We recognize their strength,courage and unique perspective
as a vital contribution to thispodcast so we can learn, grow

(01:04):
and achieve better outcomestogether.

Donna Markham (01:10):
And the whole notion of what a good parent
would do, what a good motherwould do.
I mean, we spend a lot of timeshooting on ourselves.
I should do this, I should dothat.
I think we need to stopshooting on ourselves.

Emily Webb (01:28):
Welcome to Get Real talking mental health and
disability.
I'm Emily Webb.
This is our final episode for2023 and we thought it would be
timely to talk about self care,especially during Christmas and
the New Year period, with, asalways, a focus on mental health
, and I'm so pleased that DonnaMarkham is joining me to talk
about this topic Now.

(01:49):
Donna is a qualifiedoccupational therapist and
adjunct associate professor atMonaster University, and also a
member of our ermha 365 Board.
She chairs the PracticeGovernance Quality and Safety
Committee.
Donna is Victoria's former ChiefAllied Health Officer,
providing professionalgovernance of the Allied Health
Workforce in Victoria fromwithin the State Government's

(02:11):
Quality and Safety Agency, whichis safer care Victoria, and she
was in this role in the thickof the COVID-19 pandemic.
Donna is now focused onentrepreneurship, using her
Allied Health Leadershipexperience to coach professional
women many in Allied Healtharound career transition, among
other things.
Donna joined us on Get Real forour last episode of 2021 and

(02:35):
since then, a lot has happenedin her life, including the
honour of being the recipient ofthe Medal of the Order of
Australia in 2022 for hercontributions to healthcare
administration.
So welcome, donna Markham OAM.
Thanks for joining me for thelast episode of 2023.

Hey, emily, thank you, it's so great to be here
again and it's hard to believeit's two years on.

Emily Webb (03:01):
I know it's just flown.
It's unbelievable, really.
So first of all,congratulations on the Medal of
the Order of Australia.
The team at ermha365 was soproud to hear this news, so tell
me more about this.

Thank you.
Yeah, I mean, it's one of thosekind of life changing moments,
really receiving that sort of arecognition and honour.
Yeah, it was just.
It was so lovely to know thatsome of my colleagues and you
know people who had worked withme had put forward the
nomination and supported thenomination.
It's quite a lengthy process.
It's sort of an 18 month to twoyear process that they review
that and then to sort of to bethere on the day and to receive

(03:37):
the medal from the, you know,the Governor of the time and it
was just, yeah, it was justremarkable.

Emily Webb (03:43):
And as we record this episode, it's the 12th of
December and there's definitelythat hectic feel out and about.
How are you going with the leadup to Christmas?
Because I know you're a mum.
You've got your own business.
Before we recorded you'd hoppedoff a session with a client, so
I'm guessing you're pretty busy.

Well, I mean yes and no.
I mean I sort of sometimespeople wear, yeah, I'm really
busy as a bit of a bit of a badjive on.
But I actually try not to betoo busy because I'm not at my
best when I'm too busy, and so Iguess at the moment I'm
actually trying to wind down toChristmas so that I don't feel
hectic and crazy.

(04:21):
I don't particularly enjoybeing in that state.
It's not good for me, it's notgood for my well-being, and I'm
sort of taking steps right nowto, yeah, to settle, close
things out for the year.
I'm hoping to wind up work nextweek when the kids finish school
, so I've got some time to beavailable for them.
But having said all that, thereis, you know, there is
sometimes the pressure to finishoff things or to attend those

(04:43):
last minute, you know socialgatherings, and so I've sort of
been trying to practice sayingno to a few things as well.
Actually, I can't attend that,but perhaps we could do
something in the new year.
And what's the cost?
Is it a cost to my well-being?
Is it a cost to family time, orwhatever it might be?
So you know I'm sitting withall those sort of tensions at
the moment, but trying to honouractually slowing down and not

(05:06):
feeling frantic.

Emily Webb (05:08):
Yeah, it sounds good .
I'm trying to do a bit of thesame.
Learning to do that.
It's taking a while, and whenwe spoke, probably well, two
years ago, there's something yousaid that really has stuck with
me, honestly, about theimportance of self care, and it
was along the lines of you know,we've got to look after
ourselves first so we have thecapacity to care for others.

(05:29):
In your case you said it wasyour husband and children, and
you know that can be hardbecause, especially for women,
because there's that societalnorm gender stereotype that
we're caregivers.
You know mothers must beself-sacrificing and to be seen
as good mothers and I'm puttingair quotes around that listeners
, you know we have to puteveryone before us and I'd love

(05:54):
to unpick this with you.

Yeah, look, that's an excellent point, emily
.
I think probably what I wouldhave said last time.
My mantra is self care, couplecare, family care, and I suppose
that's something I try to liveby, because if you can't care,
you know, if I'm not okay, thenmy partnership with my partner,
dan, is not okay, and if we'renot okay as a couple, then the
family is not okay.

(06:16):
And I guess I try and put allthose things in place for it's
before I even contemplate whatthat means for work and and the
whole notion of you know what agood parent would do, what a
good mother would do.
I mean, we, we spend a lot oftime shooting on ourselves.
I should do this, I should dothat.
So I think we need to stopshooting on ourselves and, you

(06:38):
know, think about what's rightfor us and right for our family.
And you know I've had to workreally hard.
It was a mantra two years ago,but I think in the last two
years I've had to workespecially hard at that.
I mean even in the last 12months.
You know, in more recent time,about a year ago, my youngest
son has been diagnosed asautistic and an 88 year, and so

(06:59):
I have had to kind of completelyflip how I thought I would
parent, how I thought mychildren would grow up, how I
thought the relationship betweenmy two children might be on its
head and actually, instead ofthink about who I thought I
should be, actually be theparent that my children need me
to be.
And that is a work in progress.
That is not an easy thing to do, to drop all of those

(07:22):
expectations and all thoseshoulds that we have on
ourselves.
But, yeah, it's a work inprogress and something and I'm
really working hard on.
And I guess just to give you anexample Of what that means for
us this Christmas.
You know, christmas is hard.
I think Christmas can be a verytricky time of year for many,
many people.
It is not always the fun andjoyous occasion that we think it

(07:43):
should be and and it can oftenbe really challenging, and for
my neurodivergent child inparticular, it's a really tricky
time.
There's lots of big feelings,there's lots of expectations,
there's just a lot going on, andgood or bad, let's not label it
as either it's just a lot, andso it's a very tricky time for

(08:03):
us.
And so we sat down.
I sat down with my partner andsaid, well, let's set the kids
up for success.
You know we want Christmas tobe something.
We want it to be a day thatthey can look back on and go.
I had a good day.
You know not all theexpectations of what Christmas
could be, so We've decided tokind of boycott Christmas this
year and so we're not doing thebig family lunch, we're not

(08:24):
going.
I even have to manage Christmaspresents a little bit
differently because I know thatwhen my younger son sees the
gifts that my Older son getsfrom Santa, he's gonna want them
, and rather than expect him tomanage that differently because
of the break the way his brainworks, let's just set it up a
bit differently and let's helpmy older son manage expectations

(08:44):
.
And so I said to the kids look,we're not gonna do the family
lunch this year.
What would you like to do ifyou could pick anything you
wanted?
What would you like to do?
And so they said can we stay inthe city?
And I said, well, yeah, okay,why not?
We'll do Christmas morning athome, just the four of us.
And then we're staying in thecity for two nights and we've
just booked an apartment thathas a swimming pool and we're

(09:06):
just gonna go and have some funand create some memories that
are a bit different and kind ofget rid of all those
Expectations and norms andshoulds and what not and just do
what we think will work for ourfamily.
So that feels really empoweringand exciting actually.

Emily Webb (09:22):
I'm really glad that you shared that with us, donna,
because I read a really, reallyinteresting Article online with
you.
It was on the Allied HealthProfessionals website talking
about leadership and careertransition, and you did mention
this and you'd said that youknow, when you found out about
your medal of the order ofAustralia, you like burst into
tears because obviously it'sincredible, but also because you

(09:45):
were, you know, reallyprocessing and managing some
challenges at home.
That process of diagnosis andyou know, I felt this so deeply
because last year, both myteenage daughters were diagnosed
with ADHD After I had beendiagnosed Like it's been
life-changing in a lot of ways,great ways, but just, yeah, it's
, it's a lot to learn.

(10:06):
And yeah, you mentioned thatthis has really changed how
you're gonna negotiate Christmasand it sounds really great.
It sounds like a verysupportive, safe way to, you
know, do things and I think oneof the reliefs I know when I
found out about ADHD and that Ihad it, it was like Wow, I think
I can really try to stop peoplepleasing.

(10:27):
That was a massive thing for me.
And yeah, I just wondered whatelse you've kind of Learned
during this, this journey,because, yeah, it's, it's
something that a lot of familiescan relate to.

Yeah, absolutely.
And look, thank you for sharingyour experience with me too,
emily, in terms of you know yourown diagnosis and your
children's.
The more we talk about it, themore people share and the less
lonely it is in sharing thatexperience and the more we
normalize and recognize.
You know, neuro divergentbrains is an important part of
our community.

(11:00):
I still think it's somethingthat's incredibly under
diagnosed, but I know that thereare a lot of adults getting
diagnosed, you know, later inlife and Sometimes as a result
of their children going throughthe process and they're filling
in the forms and going hang on asecond, that sounds like me or
you know, or vice versa, and Ithink it takes a lot of courage.
I think as well for adults inparticular to to go through this
process, because there, youknow, there is a big part of who

(11:22):
we are and our identity that'ssort of wrapped up in this.
So, anyway, thank you for yeah,for sharing that on your side.
I mean, there is so much that Ihave learned in the last 12
months or so.
Gosh, where to start.
So one is, I don't want mychild to, so Hugo is his name.
I don't want Hugo to have anyshame for who he is and how his

(11:45):
brain works.
He's fabulous as he is, and Iknow that in the past is
probably because of stereotypesand just awareness and even
therapeutic approaches toneurodivergent individuals.
There are a lot of people outthere who feel that they are
less than or feel a lot of shamefor how their brain works, and

(12:07):
I suppose my number one goal ishis parent is to try and do
everything I can so that hedoesn't feel that way.
That is hard because there aremany times that he does things
that are very challenging andvery confronting for me, and
often when I am tired anddepleted, my reaction is to be
angry and he then internalizesthat as I'm not a very good
person and I'm making mummyangry, so there's a lot in there

(12:31):
around that that I need tomanage myself in order to
effectively support him, and soin many ways, I feel like I'm
the one that has to do the work,not him.
He's thick, I'm an adult and Ihave more resources and skill at
this point in my life than hedoes when he's six.

(12:52):
So how we've approached histherapy he's got NDIS funding
and he's not having any directtherapy at the moment.
We've chosen to get supportfrom an OT, a psychologist and
dietician to do parent educationand coaching with us.
My partner and I sit downtogether and we are learning
because we are with him, exceptwhen he's at school.
We are with him 24 seven, sowe're the ones that are with him

(13:16):
through thick and thin andthrough the challenging times.
So we are learning so that wecan best support him.
And I'm sure as he gets older,then direct therapy will be
appropriate.
But right now that's how we'vedecided to approach it.
So, yeah, so there's lots inthere.
There's lots of, I guess,acceptance that in many ways
we're the ones that need tochange to accommodate him, that

(13:36):
there is so much for us to learnin order to support him that
we're doing what we can so thathe doesn't experience shame for
who he is.
And you know, on occasions likethis, that I talk about it with
as many people who are willingto listen, because there are so
many neurodivergent people outthere who perhaps don't speak up
.
And the more you talk about it,the more people say, yeah,

(13:56):
that's my experience, or mychild too, or, like you've just
done, well, I just got diagnosedas an adult recently.
The more we talk about it, theless lonely the experience and
the more we can support oneanother, you know, and just
normalize these experiences,because I think there is there's
a huge amount of grief comeswith that process and that's
okay.
Like it's okay to grieve thelife you thought you had, all

(14:18):
the way you thought you'd parent, or the sorts of holidays you'd
have, all the types ofChristmases you've had.
Like it is okay to grieve thoseexperiences because that is
that is real.
So I'm also trying to findspace for that grief as well, as
, you know, holding space, youknow, for parenting him the way
he needs to be Gosh.

Emily Webb (14:37):
I feel like there's like series I mean I, you could
do series, you could do books.
I mean people do.
I found it really very helpfulwhen people spoke about their
own experiences and that'sactually what kind of sparked me
into thinking about ADHD,because our friend said, do you
think you might have ADHD?
And I was like what?

(14:57):
That's ridiculous.
I think it's a real educationprocess and yeah, it's great, I
feel like it's empowering, butit is difficult, like my
parenting.
I'm truly trying to be adifferent parent, acknowledging
the ways that I've handledthings previously were, you know
, not great, but also notunderstanding my own self.

(15:18):
And yeah, it's all verycomplicated, but I look forward
to talking to you about it more,whether it's informally or, you
know, seeing what you may endup.
I don't know, you may end updoing something with your
business or your ventures, butlet's talk about that, because
you started disequilibriumaround two years ago and I'd

(15:40):
love to know how it's going.
And also, I love the name of it.
It's really cool and there is aspecial kind of reason for it,
isn't there?

Yes, there is, yeah, yes, I'll tell you about
the name and then I'll talk abit more about how it's going.
So disequilibrium that name hasbeen kicking around in my head
since about 2014.
Well before I had any inklingthat I might start a business, I
did a year long leadershipprogram with Leadership Victoria
it's called the WilliamsonCommunity Leadership Program and
it's an incredible program andat the beginning of that year,

(16:17):
they drew this squiggly line onthe board and said you are going
to feel, you know, this sort ofstate of disequilibrium this
year.
And it was so true.
It was just the intense highsand lows and a whole lot of
discomfort and uncertainty, butthere was so much growth for me
in that year and so for me,disequilibrium is just that word

(16:37):
or that phrase just captures.
You need to feel all the feelsand being, all that discomfort
in order for growth to occur.
So the business namedisequilibrium the sweet spot
where growth occurs, becausethat's and still is, you know,
based on what I just talkedabout, that is where all of my
learning has come from, in themost uncomfortable times and the
periods of most uncertainty, Isuppose.

(17:00):
So the moment I decided toleave being an employee, so to
speak and start my own business.
There was just it's.
That, was it?
Disequilibrium is the name.
So yeah, and it's a greatconversation status.

Emily Webb (17:11):
Yeah, so I know it's been going for around two years
and you are really supportingpeople who want to make a move
into something different.
You know, do their own thingand how's it going.

It continues to evolve.
So my work now I think of it asa bit of a portfolio of things.
I have a number of coachingclients one-on-one and team
coaching and then I do someconsultancy or facilitation work
and then I do my board work,which is obviously MF365 is one
of my board positions.
I feel like I get to use all ofmy skills in lots of different

(17:44):
ways and I really love thatvariety in my work and it's huge
amounts of flexibility andfreedom so that I can be there
for the kids and provide thesupport that they need.
So, in terms of, I guess,themes and I'm continually
learning about myself, which isbeautiful I love that.

(18:05):
Exploration I mean reflectivepractice is so important,
whether you're a clinician, acoach, whatever it might be, so
that's something I'm alwaysdoing.
I'm starting to notice, I guess, some trends in terms of the
types of people that areinterested in working with me
and, as you said, many are at atransitional point or they're
thinking about a change in theircareer and perhaps they're

(18:27):
drawn to the courage that I'vepreviously had to lean into for
my own changes.
The other reason might bepeople who are stepping up into
a leadership position for thefirst time or a more senior role
and they're trying to workthrough their own anxiety and
all of the self-doubt and thefeelings.
People talk about impostersyndrome and there's lots of

(18:48):
different views on what thatmeans and whether it's a system
issue or an individual, etc.
Again, probably a whole notherpodcast on that, but those
feelings are real.
People have those doubts anduncertainties.
So a lot of people will come tome because they're like I want
to be the best leader I can be,but I need some support because
I've got all these doubts.
I'm in this role and I'mfeeling really scared.
So it's really lovely to be ina position to coach someone and

(19:12):
empower them.
Deep down, those self-beliefsare there and it's just helping
people really connect with theirown beliefs and strengths and
confidence.
So that's certainly a big thing.
There is also a lot of peoplewho are just like I feel so
overwhelmed right now and I'velost my not completely lost my

(19:33):
way, but I just need helpreprioritizing, refocusing,
bringing back self-care.
I think we're still and weprobably will for many years
feeling the long tail of COVIDand the impacts that those
couple of years had on us.
I think we're all stillreadjusting to what life is now
I know I certainly am Even.

(19:53):
Just how much do you want towork at home versus being person
?
There's still a lot thateverybody's readjusting too, so
there's a lot of people that arealso coming with questions
around.
Just how do I refocus andreclaim boundaries?
Really?

Emily Webb (20:08):
I love that.
I love anything talking aboutboundaries, because it's taken
me a long time to actually learnabout boundaries and that it's
okay to say no.
Like you said at the start ofour chat, it's like actually you
can say no to things, you don'thave to go to every party, you
don't have to go to every catchup, and that was, I know,
something for me.

(20:28):
That would overwhelm me and Iwould just loading myself up
with these things and just themburning out and never
understanding what it was.
So I find that just reallyfascinating and the board work
that you do.
You're on a few boards andIrma's one of them, and Irma
provides mental health anddisability support.
So what is it that, I guess,attracted you to join Irma's

(20:51):
board?
And I know that you do havequite a passion for mental
health.

I've been interested in board work for a
while and I think as I movedaway from being a clinician, a
hands-on clinician, intoleadership roles, it was that
interest in influencing at abigger level, at a system level.
So I still feel in everythingthat I do I am making a
difference to the kind of carethat people provide.
I'm just not face-to-facedelivering that care anymore,

(21:17):
you know, in a practice or aclinical setting, for example,
but at a board level it's just.
You know you get to help governan organisation and set
strategy for an organisation.
So you know it's such aprivilege to be able to
influence and to be a part ofgoverning.
You know an organisation likeIrma because what we do is so
critical and you know such anessential need for the most

(21:39):
vulnerable in our community.
I think, in terms of why Irma Imean, apart from my own passion
in mental health and well-beingand self-care I had the
experience when I was younger.
My brother had a mental illnesswhen he was young and suffered
through school and high schooland early adulthood with
depression and anxiety, and so Ihad that first-hand experience

(22:03):
of being a sibling and what thatmeant for me and the family
dynamics and the sorts ofsupports that were available to
him back then are very differentto what would be available now.
And you know, as I've beengoing on my journey with my son,
Hugo, my brother's oftenreflected that actually he's
probably autistic and I suspectmany of the things that he
experienced as a child weremisdiagnosed and mismanaged and

(22:25):
unfortunately he didn't get thesupport that he needed back then
.
So you know that's somethingthat he still has to navigate in
his life.
So I think you know it was acombination of my personal
experience, my passion and alsojust another way of using my
skills to influence systems.
And being on the board of Irmais a real privilege and a

(22:46):
pleasure.
And you know we're lucky tohave a really great team of
board members and an incredibleexecutive team and staff that
you know I get the privilege tomeet from time to time across
the year.
I think what we do isphenomenal, so it's just such a
joy.
I've been with Irma now, Ithink, about four and a half
years and, yeah, it's just, it'san absolute pleasure.

Emily Webb (23:07):
It's quite heartbreaking, isn't it, when
you're in the space of learningabout either yourself or you've
got a loved one, a child, afamily member who's diagnosed
with neurodiverse condition andyou know, you realise that
there's so much that's beenmisunderstood about people and
they've lived their lives reallystruggling and you think, oh,
if only they knew that it wasautism or ADHD or I don't know

(23:30):
something else.
So in the journey with your son, is there anything that you
found really helpful that youcould share with listeners who
might be setting off on thisjourney of trying to help their
child with discovering whetherthey're neurodiverse or
something like that?

I'm acutely aware of my privilege in terms of
means, my resources, my health,literacy, my advocacy skills,
like I appreciate.
You know I have the skills toadvocate and navigate the system
for my child, but I know thereare many families out there who
don't.
So, I think, talking to otherparents and speaking, you know,

(24:05):
reach out, talk to other peoplewho are travelling or who have
travelled a similar journey toyourself, because I think you
know there is so much to learnand so learn from others who
have been through it.
So that's, I think, probablyyou know, just connecting with
other.
You know if it's a parent orit's for yourself, you know,
talking to other people who havebeen through that journey.
I think finding professionalswho you can connect with and

(24:28):
resonate with is reallyimportant.
So finding people who are, Iguess, like-minded in how you'd
like to approach things in termsof from a therapeutic
perspective or a parentingperspective or whatever that
might be, even from anassessment and diagnostic
perspective.
There's a lot of debate outthere amongst the autistic
community about affirmingpractices rather than sort of
more behavioural or challengesor limitations perspective.

(24:51):
But actually let's look at thisthrough an affirming lens and
so finding practitioners who aregoing to have that approach, I
think is really important forpeople as well.
The other thing that I think isreally important is that we
listen to the voices oflived-experienced people.
So whenever I'm wondering whatto do next or where to go, I try

(25:11):
and tap into advice from theautistic community or the
neurodivergent community.
So there are so many socialmedia points of access these
days.
Like I have just decided tohone in on one or two trusted
sources who, I believe, provideevidence-based practice.
You know, there's this fabulousspeechy on Instagram and
Facebook called NeuroWild, andshe's autistic and an ADIH to

(25:34):
herself, and she provides justsuch easily digestible
information that is so real.
And so I have just chosen oneor two sources from people with
lived experience to get myinformation and not get
overwhelmed by a whole lot ofstuff that's out there, because
I just can't take that on.
It's too much.

Emily Webb (25:52):
Oh, I hear you and that's a great recommendation.
Actually I'm the same.
I've sort of whittled down myplaces of information.
I don't have clinicalbackground or anything like that
.
I've got my lived experience.
That's what I've got.
But I do really like to tapinto stuff that's got a clinical
background and I do love.
Look, I love a funny ADHD memeLike hilarious, but yeah, I am.

(26:16):
There's stuff out there isn'tthere.
Yeah, there's great stuff, butyeah, just after a while.
Yeah, it can get veryoverwhelming and just don't have
time because it'll just feedinto ADHD anyway, hyper-focused.

Well, that's right, and one piece of advice I
would have is stay away fromblogs and Facebook groups Like,
unless they are run byevidence-based practitioners
providing evidence information.
I just think you need to bevery careful because, as you've
said, emily, if hyper-focus isone of your strengths, it's very

(26:49):
easy to get down a rabbitwarren with some of those things
, but you don't always know ifthe information is right for you
.
Sometimes it can be quitetraumatic reading people's
experiences and then everyonepausing with advice that may or
may not be helpful.
So I just think you need to besuper careful with some of those
sorts of less moderatedplatforms as well.

Emily Webb (27:07):
Yeah, I absolutely agree.
I certainly did find someFacebook groups quite helpful.
At the start I was just lurkingand reading, like a friend of
mine who was late diagnosed ADHDbrought me onto a few things
and that was just from there.
I just started to read more andthen, you know, listen to some
audiobooks and stuff like that.
So, yeah, it's good advice forsure.
So from when we last spoke tonow, what's working for you with

(27:31):
your self-care?
You've alluded to some stuff.

My self-care has kind of become even more
critical than ever, really, justas we've been navigating these
last 12 months or so, because Ineed to have energy you know,
more energy than I ever didbefore for my children, and if
I'm drained I'm not a very greatparent or person to be around.
So yoga is still a really bigpart of my self-care and I try

(27:54):
to go into a studio once a week,but I just do a lot of that in
the morning.
I just get up a bit earlier forthe before the kids are up, so
that I have that nice quiet baseand time in the mornings, which
means I need to make sure I getto bed early enough to get a
good night's sleep so I can dothat.
You know there's the physicalactivity Just taking the dog for
short walks and things.
He's getting a bit older now,though, so we won't go as far as

(28:15):
he used to, but trying to justbe out in nature and moving my
body.
So there's the physical side ofthat.
From a mental health andwellbeing side, I still continue
to see a psychologist, you know, every month and have a mental
health care plan.
You know it's a way of managingmy anxiety.
I am never short of material ofthings to talk about, whether

(28:35):
it's, you know, just navigatingrelationships or parenting
dilemmas.
But I've also found that youknow I talked about grief before
and the grief that's associatedwith for me, that's been
associated with my son and thathas brought up some grief from
my past and previousrelationship breakdowns and big

(28:55):
changes in my life when I wasyounger, and so you know I'm
having to kind of reprocess someof that.
So the professional support ofa psychologist has been really
critical.
So that's another fundamentalpart of my kind of self-care.
And then the other part, Isuppose, is thinking about my
work and because I do a lot ofcoaching, like, in order to be

(29:16):
an effective and a safe coach,really I have to make sure I'm
caring for myself.
So I have to create space in myday to be reflective.
I have professional coachingsupervision to make sure that my
practice continues to be safeand I can only do so many
sessions in a day before I'm nolonger effective.
So creating breathing room andbreaks in my days to be the best

(29:38):
version of myself when I showup for people.
And then probably the finalpart of that is my relationship
at home with Dan, my partner, sothat you know, we continue to
try and find time to connect andtalk about what really matters,
so that we're not just fallinginto a habit of being either
ships in the night or justtransactional in our
relationship, because, you know,in order to be solid in where

(30:00):
we're at with our parenting, weneed to be on the same page.
And so, yeah, trying to findtime to make sure we connect
properly rather than justexisting together, because it's
very easy for that to happen.

Emily Webb (30:12):
I know that feeling.
Yes, it's very easy for that tohappen.
It is quite incredible reallyreflecting.
I think COVID, the pandemic,the lockdowns, caused us to have
some pause, but it is quiteunbelievable how we think we've
got to push ourselves so muchand just that.
Yeah, I realize I am justabsolutely no good in any way,

(30:32):
shape or form if I am exhaustedand I really that's how I
operated for so many years.
You know, I think part of thereason, to be honest, that I
started to think what's going onwas the lockdowns, you know
changing routines, my age, youknow hormones, a lot of this
stuff, like I'm stillinvestigating it and it's just
like, wow, ok, yeah, self careis just so vital and so I love

(30:55):
talking about this stuff andwe're coming to the end of our
discussion and do you have anyfinal thoughts before we?

wrap up.
I guess it's just reflecting onyou don't have to keep doing
things the way you've alwaysdone them, like we're talking
about mental health andwell-being and self care in a
way now post COVID pandemic thatwe never had, not that it's
really post.
It's obviously still present.
But you know, we're much moreaware of well-being and mental
health needs, obviously, a lotof political focus.

(31:23):
There's been Royal Commissions,there's funding, there's.
There is so much out there now.
You know some of these thingsare much easier to tackle and
talk about these days.
So I guess just you know.
Final words are keep lookingafter yourself.
Self care is not selfish,something you need to do before
you can care for anyone else,because you can't give what you
don't have.
Putting out boundaries are hard.

(31:44):
It gets easier with practice.
It is a life skill and the onlyway you can do it is to
practice and it gets easier asyou go.
So I think it's OK toacknowledge how hard it is, but
sitting with that discomfort andpracticing putting out those
boundaries will pay off tenfold.
And often I think when you doput those boundaries out, people
then realise that oh, if you'vedone it, you know, so can I
Like when I said to my familyI'm sorry we're doing Christmas

(32:06):
differently this year.
We'll see you in and aroundChristmas.
My brother turned around andsaid you know what I find
Christmas tricky too.
I'm not going to come either.
And you know, I think when weput boundaries out, we give
other people permission to putboundaries out.
So you know, it's another wayof leading by example, really.

Emily Webb (32:20):
Massive thank you to Donna for joining me on this
episode.
Thanks, donna, it's beenamazing.

My absolute pleasure.

Emily Webb (32:27):
For our listeners.
If you've been affected byanything discussed in this
episode, you can call Lifelineon 13 11 14.
We'll also have some othermental health support resources
listed in the show notes and ifyou're enjoying the podcast,
we'd love you to share Get Realwith your friends and networks
and rate and review it on yourpreferred podcast listening
platform.
I know I say this every episode, but it does help get our

(32:50):
content out there and to you all.
Thank you for listening to GetReal in 2023.
On behalf of myself and mycohost and Irma 365 CEO, karenza
Louis Smith, who couldn't behere she's away we wish you all
the best for a safe Christmasand new year.

ermha365 (33:08):
You've been listening to Get Real talking mental
health and disability, broughtto you by the team at Irma 365.
Get Real is produced andpresented by Emily Webb, with
Karenza Louis Smith and specialguests.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.

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