August 9, 2024 • 20 mins
Our guest for this episode is Dr Michelle Lim, Scientific Chair and CEO of Ending Loneliness Together - a national network of organisations that work together to address the loneliness in people living in Australia. This is done through evidence-based research, advocacy and public information and awareness.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Get Real is recorded on the unceded lands of the Boon
, Wurrung and Wurundjeri peoplesof the Kulin Nation.
We acknowledge and pay ourrespects to their elders, past
and present.
We also acknowledge that theFirst Peoples of Australia are
the first storytellers, thefirst artists and the first
creators of culture and wecelebrate their enduring
(00:21):
connections to country knowledgeand stories.
Celebrate their enduringconnections to country knowledge
and stories.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to Get Real talking.
Mental health and disabilitybrought to you by the team at
Burma 365.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Join our hosts, emily Webb and Carenza Louis-Smith,
as we have frank and fearlessconversations with special
guests about all things mentalhealth and complexity.
With special guests about allthings mental health and
complexity.
We recognise people with livedexperience of mental ill health
and disability, as well as theirfamilies and carers.
(00:58):
We recognise their strength,courage and unique perspective
as a vital contribution to thispodcast so we can learn, grow
and achieve better outcomestogether.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
So I think the idea that we need to kind of get our
head around is that, first ofall, feeling lonely is quite a
normal human signal for us to dosomething about our
relationships.
It's not actually any differentto feeling hungry and the need
to actually eat and nourishourselves.
Speaker 5 (01:32):
Welcome to Get Real talking.
Mental health and disability.
I'm Emily Webb.
Our guest is AssociateProfessor Michelle Lim, CEO and
Scientific Chair of EndingLoneliness Together, a national
network of organisations thatwork together to address the
loneliness in people living inAustralia.
This is done throughevidence-based research,
(01:54):
advocacy, and public informationand awareness.
Michelle is a registeredclinical psychologist and a
recognised expert in loneliness.
I've been following the work ofending loneliness together
pretty much since I startedworking at Irma365, and I'm
really thrilled to be speakingwith Michelle.
Welcome, Michelle.
Thanks for joining me.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Thanks for having me, Emily.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
Now, michelle, before we delve into the issue of
loneliness and social connection.
How did you become, as Imentioned in the intro, an
expert in loneliness and itsimpacts on people?
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Emily actually started with my career as a
clinical psychologist when I wasworking in the mental health
service and public health overhere in Melbourne.
I found that despite seeingpeople many times in the day,
sometimes up to three times aday to try to assist them in
their medical care and theirmental health care, the people
(02:53):
that I saw continued to complainabout loneliness and feeling
lonely, and it really struck methat our care industry really
can't cater to the social needsof the people we're really
trying to help.
And this kind of led me to studya little bit more around social
relationships and people withkind of chronic mental illness.
And what we did find was thatpeople who had what we call
(03:17):
reciprocated relationships, so agive and take relationship with
other people, were actuallymore likely to feel less
distressed with their symptomsthat they're experiencing and
the quality of life wassignificantly higher than people
who had these one-wayinteractions.
And many of us know that whenwe are actually seeking services
of, you know, a health service,they're generally kind of a
(03:41):
one-way street.
You know we don't have thisreciprocated relationship with
our doctor or our psychologistor the nurse that comes to visit
us.
We almost don't know anythingabout them, and so I really was
interested in kind of studying aPhD and looking at this issue
and to really understand whatcan we do to actually better our
(04:01):
care or social care inAustralia?
Speaker 5 (04:07):
Yeah, and the work of ending loneliness together and
the information that isavailable, that you know is
shared, is so interesting and Ihad really not a lot of idea
about the deep impacts on peopleof loneliness.
So what is loneliness as youdefine it in the research you've
done?
Speaker 4 (04:32):
So loneliness is defined as a subjective feeling
of distress that comes up whenyou feel your social
relationships do not meet yourcurrent social needs.
So you might be with peopleliving in a family, having lots
of interactions with yourcolleagues working, living in
the neighbourhood, where youspeak to your neighbours but you
don't feel you have thatmeaningful social connection.
So it's very different to beingalone.
So being alone is a little biteasier for us to see as a third
(04:54):
person.
So being alone is a physicalstate.
Being socially isolated issomething I can see.
So the number of people I talkto, the number of people I live
with, the number of interactionsI have, people tend to mix them
up and it's really.
They're really kind of they'rerelated but they're kind of
distinct constructs.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Ending Loneliness Together released a report last
year called the State of theNation Social Connection in
Australia 2023.
And there's loads in thisreport and I'll put links in the
show notes.
It's a really interesting read.
There's a lot going on.
There's the health and mentalhealth impacts, perceptions of
loneliness and stigma.
So let's talk about stigma.
(05:33):
It's a barrier for people toseek support or make connections
, isn't it, which exacerbatesthe feelings?
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Yeah.
So I think the idea that weneed to kind of get our head
around is that, first of all,feeling lonely is quite a normal
human signal for us to dosomething about our
relationships.
It's not actually any differentto feeling hungry and the need
to actually eat and nourishourselves, or feeling thirsty
and for us to quench our thirst.
Feeling lonely is for us tostop and think about OK, what do
(06:03):
we need socially that willallow us to thrive and flourish?
But for some reason not justAustralia but many parts of the
world feeling lonely has becomethis stigmatized issue.
It's something that'sunacceptable, it's something
that has to do with somethingwrong with that person, and our
state of the nation report foundthat loneliness was highly
(06:26):
prevalent.
So you know, at least one inthree of us experience
loneliness at any given point.
One in six experience what wecall very high levels of
problematic levels of loneliness.
Almost half of us are tooembarrassed to talk about it.
We conceal it, so we weretrying not to talk about it.
We conceal it, so we will trynot to talk about it.
So it's almost this thing, thissilent thing, that none of us
(06:46):
really want to admit it.
We don't actually reach out, soit's a normal feeling to have,
but we don't actually try tosatisfy that urge, that human
instincts.
And, of course, emily, when weactually try to ignore very
basic human signals, we actuallyget unwell.
It's almost what I call socialhunger.
When we don't actually feedourselves or we don't actually
(07:09):
drink to quench our thirst,physiologically we actually
become disadvantaged and hurt insome way.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
It's fascinating, isn't it?
There's so much in this, and Iwas really surprised that in the
report that was released lastyear, that it's the 18 to 24
year old Australians who feelthe most lonely.
My misconception was and I'mguessing that a lot of people
might share this is that it'sprobably older Australians who
feel loneliness most.
So what's the story behindthose stats?
Speaker 4 (07:40):
To kind of frame the whole issue.
I do believe that older adultsare very much affected by
loneliness as well as socialisolation, but this report did
not pick it up because wesurveyed older Australians that
were a lot more connected, sowhat we'll call a sample that
might have picked up, because itis an online sample.
(08:00):
We might have picked up olderAustralians that are a lot less
vulnerable, but when we kind oflook at other parts of the world
and other data, we may see thenon-online version type data to
be a lot more significant inolder Australians.
So definitely something that westill need to think about.
But young people, of course,are very competent in online
(08:21):
surveys and when we actually dothese large surveys, we're
likely to pick up, you know,loneliness in some of these
samples 18 to 24, and the othersurprising statistic is 45 to 54
.
So I would say both groups agegroups that are well embedded
into our society, who areworking, who are integrated,
(08:43):
highly valued are actuallyreporting highest levels of
loneliness, which probably sayssomething again about the
differences between subjectiveversus objective states of
isolation.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
Yeah, and something else that I found interesting in
the research is there's realhealth impacts about loneliness.
It can cause ill health,chronic illness, there's mental
ill health, but also there's animpact on the workplace, on
productivity.
Can you tell me a bit moreabout that?
Speaker 4 (09:14):
That's a really good question as well, and it's
something that is starting toemerge in this field that we
realise.
Oh, being lonely is not justbad for our health, it's
actually bad for our workplacesand for business.
We do know, especially in theUK, loneliness costs employers
and employees billions ofdollars in pounds, for example,
(09:35):
and this is things like, youknow, poor health, so you're
more likely to suffer increasedhealth problems if you're lonely
, perhaps caring for people aswell, and also things like being
less productive, less creative.
New economics report costsrevealed that loneliness was
actually a huge burden to theworkplaces, costing both private
(09:59):
and public employers around 2.7billion pounds, I believe, a
year.
So it's quite a lot of money.
And we don't do anything aboutour workplaces.
In fact, if anything, we assumethat just because we're at work
, we're competent and we canactually thrive socially.
But that's not really the case,and our particular report is
showing that people who arelonely are just more likely to
(10:21):
be absent from work.
They're more likely to be alsoshowing presenteeism, which is
actually just as worrying asabsenteeism.
But presenteeism is actuallygoing to work, even though you
feel really unwell.
Sometimes, perhaps, it might beworse than absenteeism.
People report feeling moreimpaired in their workplaces,
both at the workplace but alsooutside the workplace.
(10:43):
We need to really understand alittle bit more about the impact
on workplaces, and workplacesneed to think about what we can
do to actually not just havepeople come together but have
people have the meaningfulsocial connection so that they
can thrive and flourish as anorganisation.
Speaker 5 (11:03):
And as well as the evidence-based work you do, and
that's what I really love.
There's real, you know researchbacked.
It's not you know researchbacked, it's not you know.
The feelings are important, butthere's actual evidence.
But lived and living experienceis a big part of your work as
well.
How does that work?
Because we know, particularlyin Victoria, the lived and
living experience workforce ismassive coming off from the
(11:23):
Royal Commission.
I know at Irma 365, we're goinggreat guns with you know living
experience and we've got somepeer cadets.
So how does that?
What does that look like forending loneliness together?
Speaker 4 (11:36):
So, emily, I think this is actually part of how we
started.
I was actually approached by acommunity member that had lived
a living experience ofloneliness, and the way she
described it to me was that shewas not someone that was
financially disadvantaged.
She was well embedded withinthe workplaces, in fact had a
(11:56):
kind of exec job in a charity,had a family, and within a span
of three months she had losteverything.
And she basically said well,someone like me, who's well
equipped, can actually feellonely.
What can we do to actuallyprevent that from happening to
other people?
So, michelle, we need to startsomething here, and I think this
(12:18):
is really the foundation of whywe're here is really that a lot
of the work that we've beenbeen doing is not just by the
evidence but the live and livingexperience, because we do know
it's such a subjectiveexperience.
So loneliness has many faces.
We're looking at, you know,these diverse voices to actually
(12:39):
get people to understand thatit's subjective, it's prevalent,
and we cannot assume that oneis not lonely just by looking at
them cannot assume that one isnot lonely just by looking at
them.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
That is so true.
That's so true.
And, if I'm allowed to slipthis question in, you're a new
mum and mums can feel lonely,parents can feel lonely.
You know, I've had, I've gotteenagers and you know it's a
grind parenting.
But your life changes so much.
And is that part of some of theresearch that's done?
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Yeah, look, I think one thing that's really
important to know is that whenyou even have positive changes
in your life, like having a babyor maybe even moving countries
for a new job which I have doneboth now positive events can
pose social challenges.
So positive events can posesocial challenges and there's a
massive change in the way youhave to maintain your
(13:33):
friendships, your networks, theway you interact with people.
When you're going through thesetransitions, you can feel
incredibly lonely and it'sreally important to keep that
conversation going to also maybefind friends that can support
you.
For example, I have I'm verylucky to have friends who've
really gone through this journey.
When I kind of have an issuelike, oh, my baby's not sleeping
(13:57):
and all that stuff, you knowthey will be able to provide
that ear and say, oh, this iswhat I did, so that this shared
experience really helps me notto feel so isolated and I say
feel isolated because I'm notisolated, but that shared
experience with other parentscan really alleviate that.
Or for me, when I moved to theUS, I found a lot of my
(14:19):
colleagues were transplants fromother parts of the world to to
America and again, this sharedexperience helps alleviate that
sense of loneliness yeah, yeah,it's a big thing moving country.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
yeah, I've done it, well done it, and my husband's
from the uk, so it's like youknow, michelle, what do you
think are some of the mostpressing, effective or much
needed solutions and actions tohelp people feel more connected
and less lonely and it's beenexacerbated, obviously, by the
pandemic and coming out of that,so what we do know actually is
(14:51):
that loneliness is a highlyprevalent issue, but it's also a
complex issue that's not thateasy to resolve, and I say that
because it's what I call awicked problem.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
It takes many different layers for us to
resolve this in our society, butwe all have a role to play.
So if you're listening, forexample, and you felt lonely, or
you know someone who's lonely,I think that the biggest thing
is to reach out in a way that ishelpful to the person.
We actually have spoken to alot of people who live a living
experience around this, and howdo we start that conversation
and how do we know if someone'slonely?
(15:27):
We ran Loneliness AwarenessWeek this year and if you want
to see some tips around that,it's
lonelinessawarenessweekcomauabout how we can have that
conversation and being open, notassuming that just because
something works for you is goingto work for them.
So asking the person who'slonely what would work for you
or what has worked for you inthe past, and never assume that
(15:50):
things that you have done foryourself will definitely work
for them.
And it's really important forus to be open, unassuming.
Get them the person who'sfeeling lonely to tell you what
works for them.
And if you are the person who isfeeling lonely, I think one
thing that is really helpful isto seek that connection and not
(16:12):
actually ask for a soft request.
And when I mean soft request,people are lonely, they don't
want to be a burden to otherpeople.
They feel embarrassed, they'rereally ashamed.
But actually it's quite okay tosay, hey, I really want to
connect, and it really wouldmean a lot to me if we spent the
time to connect because I feellike I need that connection.
So you can say it that way, oryou could actually in my, in my
(16:35):
ideal world, to say hey, I feellonely, can we connect?
Because that the word lonelinesshas to be part and parcel of
our everyday lingo, as opposedto something that's a bit weird.
So perhaps your listeners mightbe thinking now oh, can I say
that?
But our goal is to say when Isay I'm lonely, it's not very
any different If I say I'mhungry.
(16:56):
You need to have that samesentiment.
So if I say I'm lonely, theresponse will be oh, would you
like to connect?
As opposed to and similar to,would you like some food.
I think we need to kind ofstart having that conversation
and destigmatize that word.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Yeah, that's great, that's so.
Yeah, destigmatize the word andjust normalize it Like I'm
tired, Go have a nap or have arest.
Michelle, it's been greatchatting to you.
As we come to the end of thisconversation, do you have any
final thoughts that you want toshare with us?
Speaker 4 (17:31):
One thing that's really important to take away is
that loneliness is a verynormal feeling.
We will all feel lonely at somepoint.
Emily.
You and me and everyone elseliving in this earth will feel
lonely, but we should not staylonely, and that is the the
issue.
But it's got to start somewhere.
(17:51):
So understanding, learning,sharing those experiences is
really highly valued, and we doknow that ignoring it will not
change anything.
It will be not just harmful forfor you, but also for others
around you, um, so I think it'sreally important to start that
conversation somewhere.
So do go to the websiteendinglonesscomau, or Loneliness
(18:15):
Awareness Week, and actuallysupport the cause, because the
more of us that talk about it,the better it is, so that this
is actually again becoming partand parcel of our language and
the way we speak to each other.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
Thank you so much, michelle, for your time, and I'm
really looking forward toseeing more of the work you do
and sharing this episode withlisteners.
So thank you very much.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Thank you, Emily.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
You've been listening to Get Real talking mental
health and disability, broughtto you by the team at Irma 365.
Get Real is produced andpresented by Emily Webb, with
Carenza Louis-Smith and specialguests.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Irma 365 provides special support for people with
complex mental ill health anddisability.
Established by consumers in1982, today Irma 365 is proud to
deliver services acrossVictoria and in the Northern
Territory.
Find out more at wwwirmaorg.
(19:26):
That's, thank you.
Get Real is recorded on the unceded lands of the Boon
, Wurrung and Wurundjeri peoplesof the Kulin Nation.
We acknowledge and pay ourrespects to their elders, past
and present.
We also acknowledge that theFirst Peoples of Australia are
the first storytellers, thefirst artists and the first
creators of culture and wecelebrate their enduring
(00:21):
connections to country knowledgeand stories.
Celebrate their enduringconnections to country knowledge
and stories.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Welcome to Get Real talking.
Mental health and disabilitybrought to you by the team at
Burma 365.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Join our hosts, emily Webb and Carenza Louis-Smith,
as we have frank and fearlessconversations with special
guests about all things mentalhealth and complexity.
With special guests about allthings mental health and
complexity.
We recognise people with livedexperience of mental ill health
and disability, as well as theirfamilies and carers.
(00:58):
We recognise their strength,courage and unique perspective
as a vital contribution to thispodcast so we can learn, grow
and achieve better outcomestogether.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
So I think the idea that we need to kind of get our
head around is that, first ofall, feeling lonely is quite a
normal human signal for us to dosomething about our
relationships.
It's not actually any differentto feeling hungry and the need
to actually eat and nourishourselves.
Speaker 5 (01:32):
Welcome to Get Real talking.
Mental health and disability.
I'm Emily Webb.
Our guest is AssociateProfessor Michelle Lim, CEO and
Scientific Chair of EndingLoneliness Together, a national
network of organisations thatwork together to address the
loneliness in people living inAustralia.
This is done throughevidence-based research,
(01:54):
advocacy, and public informationand awareness.
Michelle is a registeredclinical psychologist and a
recognised expert in loneliness.
I've been following the work ofending loneliness together
pretty much since I startedworking at Irma365, and I'm
really thrilled to be speakingwith Michelle.
Welcome, Michelle.
Thanks for joining me.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Thanks for having me, Emily.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
Now, michelle, before we delve into the issue of
loneliness and social connection.
How did you become, as Imentioned in the intro, an
expert in loneliness and itsimpacts on people?
Speaker 4 (02:29):
Emily actually started with my career as a
clinical psychologist when I wasworking in the mental health
service and public health overhere in Melbourne.
I found that despite seeingpeople many times in the day,
sometimes up to three times aday to try to assist them in
their medical care and theirmental health care, the people
(02:53):
that I saw continued to complainabout loneliness and feeling
lonely, and it really struck methat our care industry really
can't cater to the social needsof the people we're really
trying to help.
And this kind of led me to studya little bit more around social
relationships and people withkind of chronic mental illness.
And what we did find was thatpeople who had what we call
(03:17):
reciprocated relationships, so agive and take relationship with
other people, were actuallymore likely to feel less
distressed with their symptomsthat they're experiencing and
the quality of life wassignificantly higher than people
who had these one-wayinteractions.
And many of us know that whenwe are actually seeking services
of, you know, a health service,they're generally kind of a
(03:41):
one-way street.
You know we don't have thisreciprocated relationship with
our doctor or our psychologistor the nurse that comes to visit
us.
We almost don't know anythingabout them, and so I really was
interested in kind of studying aPhD and looking at this issue
and to really understand whatcan we do to actually better our
(04:01):
care or social care inAustralia?
Speaker 5 (04:07):
Yeah, and the work of ending loneliness together and
the information that isavailable, that you know is
shared, is so interesting and Ihad really not a lot of idea
about the deep impacts on peopleof loneliness.
So what is loneliness as youdefine it in the research you've
done?
Speaker 4 (04:32):
So loneliness is defined as a subjective feeling
of distress that comes up whenyou feel your social
relationships do not meet yourcurrent social needs.
So you might be with peopleliving in a family, having lots
of interactions with yourcolleagues working, living in
the neighbourhood, where youspeak to your neighbours but you
don't feel you have thatmeaningful social connection.
So it's very different to beingalone.
So being alone is a little biteasier for us to see as a third
(04:54):
person.
So being alone is a physicalstate.
Being socially isolated issomething I can see.
So the number of people I talkto, the number of people I live
with, the number of interactionsI have, people tend to mix them
up and it's really.
They're really kind of they'rerelated but they're kind of
distinct constructs.
Speaker 5 (05:11):
Ending Loneliness Together released a report last
year called the State of theNation Social Connection in
Australia 2023.
And there's loads in thisreport and I'll put links in the
show notes.
It's a really interesting read.
There's a lot going on.
There's the health and mentalhealth impacts, perceptions of
loneliness and stigma.
So let's talk about stigma.
(05:33):
It's a barrier for people toseek support or make connections
, isn't it, which exacerbatesthe feelings?
Speaker 4 (05:40):
Yeah.
So I think the idea that weneed to kind of get our head
around is that, first of all,feeling lonely is quite a normal
human signal for us to dosomething about our
relationships.
It's not actually any differentto feeling hungry and the need
to actually eat and nourishourselves, or feeling thirsty
and for us to quench our thirst.
Feeling lonely is for us tostop and think about OK, what do
(06:03):
we need socially that willallow us to thrive and flourish?
But for some reason not justAustralia but many parts of the
world feeling lonely has becomethis stigmatized issue.
It's something that'sunacceptable, it's something
that has to do with somethingwrong with that person, and our
state of the nation report foundthat loneliness was highly
(06:26):
prevalent.
So you know, at least one inthree of us experience
loneliness at any given point.
One in six experience what wecall very high levels of
problematic levels of loneliness.
Almost half of us are tooembarrassed to talk about it.
We conceal it, so we weretrying not to talk about it.
We conceal it, so we will trynot to talk about it.
So it's almost this thing, thissilent thing, that none of us
(06:46):
really want to admit it.
We don't actually reach out, soit's a normal feeling to have,
but we don't actually try tosatisfy that urge, that human
instincts.
And, of course, emily, when weactually try to ignore very
basic human signals, we actuallyget unwell.
It's almost what I call socialhunger.
When we don't actually feedourselves or we don't actually
(07:09):
drink to quench our thirst,physiologically we actually
become disadvantaged and hurt insome way.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
It's fascinating, isn't it?
There's so much in this, and Iwas really surprised that in the
report that was released lastyear, that it's the 18 to 24
year old Australians who feelthe most lonely.
My misconception was and I'mguessing that a lot of people
might share this is that it'sprobably older Australians who
feel loneliness most.
So what's the story behindthose stats?
Speaker 4 (07:40):
To kind of frame the whole issue.
I do believe that older adultsare very much affected by
loneliness as well as socialisolation, but this report did
not pick it up because wesurveyed older Australians that
were a lot more connected, sowhat we'll call a sample that
might have picked up, because itis an online sample.
(08:00):
We might have picked up olderAustralians that are a lot less
vulnerable, but when we kind oflook at other parts of the world
and other data, we may see thenon-online version type data to
be a lot more significant inolder Australians.
So definitely something that westill need to think about.
But young people, of course,are very competent in online
(08:21):
surveys and when we actually dothese large surveys, we're
likely to pick up, you know,loneliness in some of these
samples 18 to 24, and the othersurprising statistic is 45 to 54
.
So I would say both groups agegroups that are well embedded
into our society, who areworking, who are integrated,
(08:43):
highly valued are actuallyreporting highest levels of
loneliness, which probably sayssomething again about the
differences between subjectiveversus objective states of
isolation.
Speaker 5 (08:55):
Yeah, and something else that I found interesting in
the research is there's realhealth impacts about loneliness.
It can cause ill health,chronic illness, there's mental
ill health, but also there's animpact on the workplace, on
productivity.
Can you tell me a bit moreabout that?
Speaker 4 (09:14):
That's a really good question as well, and it's
something that is starting toemerge in this field that we
realise.
Oh, being lonely is not justbad for our health, it's
actually bad for our workplacesand for business.
We do know, especially in theUK, loneliness costs employers
and employees billions ofdollars in pounds, for example,
(09:35):
and this is things like, youknow, poor health, so you're
more likely to suffer increasedhealth problems if you're lonely
, perhaps caring for people aswell, and also things like being
less productive, less creative.
New economics report costsrevealed that loneliness was
actually a huge burden to theworkplaces, costing both private
(09:59):
and public employers around 2.7billion pounds, I believe, a
year.
So it's quite a lot of money.
And we don't do anything aboutour workplaces.
In fact, if anything, we assumethat just because we're at work
, we're competent and we canactually thrive socially.
But that's not really the case,and our particular report is
showing that people who arelonely are just more likely to
(10:21):
be absent from work.
They're more likely to be alsoshowing presenteeism, which is
actually just as worrying asabsenteeism.
But presenteeism is actuallygoing to work, even though you
feel really unwell.
Sometimes, perhaps, it might beworse than absenteeism.
People report feeling moreimpaired in their workplaces,
both at the workplace but alsooutside the workplace.
(10:43):
We need to really understand alittle bit more about the impact
on workplaces, and workplacesneed to think about what we can
do to actually not just havepeople come together but have
people have the meaningfulsocial connection so that they
can thrive and flourish as anorganisation.
Speaker 5 (11:03):
And as well as the evidence-based work you do, and
that's what I really love.
There's real, you know researchbacked.
It's not you know researchbacked, it's not you know.
The feelings are important, butthere's actual evidence.
But lived and living experienceis a big part of your work as
well.
How does that work?
Because we know, particularlyin Victoria, the lived and
living experience workforce ismassive coming off from the
(11:23):
Royal Commission.
I know at Irma 365, we're goinggreat guns with you know living
experience and we've got somepeer cadets.
So how does that?
What does that look like forending loneliness together?
Speaker 4 (11:36):
So, emily, I think this is actually part of how we
started.
I was actually approached by acommunity member that had lived
a living experience ofloneliness, and the way she
described it to me was that shewas not someone that was
financially disadvantaged.
She was well embedded withinthe workplaces, in fact had a
(11:56):
kind of exec job in a charity,had a family, and within a span
of three months she had losteverything.
And she basically said well,someone like me, who's well
equipped, can actually feellonely.
What can we do to actuallyprevent that from happening to
other people?
So, michelle, we need to startsomething here, and I think this
(12:18):
is really the foundation of whywe're here is really that a lot
of the work that we've beenbeen doing is not just by the
evidence but the live and livingexperience, because we do know
it's such a subjectiveexperience.
So loneliness has many faces.
We're looking at, you know,these diverse voices to actually
(12:39):
get people to understand thatit's subjective, it's prevalent,
and we cannot assume that oneis not lonely just by looking at
them cannot assume that one isnot lonely just by looking at
them.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
That is so true.
That's so true.
And, if I'm allowed to slipthis question in, you're a new
mum and mums can feel lonely,parents can feel lonely.
You know, I've had, I've gotteenagers and you know it's a
grind parenting.
But your life changes so much.
And is that part of some of theresearch that's done?
Speaker 4 (13:11):
Yeah, look, I think one thing that's really
important to know is that whenyou even have positive changes
in your life, like having a babyor maybe even moving countries
for a new job which I have doneboth now positive events can
pose social challenges.
So positive events can posesocial challenges and there's a
massive change in the way youhave to maintain your
(13:33):
friendships, your networks, theway you interact with people.
When you're going through thesetransitions, you can feel
incredibly lonely and it'sreally important to keep that
conversation going to also maybefind friends that can support
you.
For example, I have I'm verylucky to have friends who've
really gone through this journey.
When I kind of have an issuelike, oh, my baby's not sleeping
(13:57):
and all that stuff, you knowthey will be able to provide
that ear and say, oh, this iswhat I did, so that this shared
experience really helps me notto feel so isolated and I say
feel isolated because I'm notisolated, but that shared
experience with other parentscan really alleviate that.
Or for me, when I moved to theUS, I found a lot of my
(14:19):
colleagues were transplants fromother parts of the world to to
America and again, this sharedexperience helps alleviate that
sense of loneliness yeah, yeah,it's a big thing moving country.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
yeah, I've done it, well done it, and my husband's
from the uk, so it's like youknow, michelle, what do you
think are some of the mostpressing, effective or much
needed solutions and actions tohelp people feel more connected
and less lonely and it's beenexacerbated, obviously, by the
pandemic and coming out of that,so what we do know actually is
(14:51):
that loneliness is a highlyprevalent issue, but it's also a
complex issue that's not thateasy to resolve, and I say that
because it's what I call awicked problem.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
It takes many different layers for us to
resolve this in our society, butwe all have a role to play.
So if you're listening, forexample, and you felt lonely, or
you know someone who's lonely,I think that the biggest thing
is to reach out in a way that ishelpful to the person.
We actually have spoken to alot of people who live a living
experience around this, and howdo we start that conversation
and how do we know if someone'slonely?
(15:27):
We ran Loneliness AwarenessWeek this year and if you want
to see some tips around that,it's
lonelinessawarenessweekcomauabout how we can have that
conversation and being open, notassuming that just because
something works for you is goingto work for them.
So asking the person who'slonely what would work for you
or what has worked for you inthe past, and never assume that
(15:50):
things that you have done foryourself will definitely work
for them.
And it's really important forus to be open, unassuming.
Get them the person who'sfeeling lonely to tell you what
works for them.
And if you are the person who isfeeling lonely, I think one
thing that is really helpful isto seek that connection and not
(16:12):
actually ask for a soft request.
And when I mean soft request,people are lonely, they don't
want to be a burden to otherpeople.
They feel embarrassed, they'rereally ashamed.
But actually it's quite okay tosay, hey, I really want to
connect, and it really wouldmean a lot to me if we spent the
time to connect because I feellike I need that connection.
So you can say it that way, oryou could actually in my, in my
(16:35):
ideal world, to say hey, I feellonely, can we connect?
Because that the word lonelinesshas to be part and parcel of
our everyday lingo, as opposedto something that's a bit weird.
So perhaps your listeners mightbe thinking now oh, can I say
that?
But our goal is to say when Isay I'm lonely, it's not very
any different If I say I'mhungry.
(16:56):
You need to have that samesentiment.
So if I say I'm lonely, theresponse will be oh, would you
like to connect?
As opposed to and similar to,would you like some food.
I think we need to kind ofstart having that conversation
and destigmatize that word.
Speaker 5 (17:13):
Yeah, that's great, that's so.
Yeah, destigmatize the word andjust normalize it Like I'm
tired, Go have a nap or have arest.
Michelle, it's been greatchatting to you.
As we come to the end of thisconversation, do you have any
final thoughts that you want toshare with us?
Speaker 4 (17:31):
One thing that's really important to take away is
that loneliness is a verynormal feeling.
We will all feel lonely at somepoint.
Emily.
You and me and everyone elseliving in this earth will feel
lonely, but we should not staylonely, and that is the the
issue.
But it's got to start somewhere.
(17:51):
So understanding, learning,sharing those experiences is
really highly valued, and we doknow that ignoring it will not
change anything.
It will be not just harmful forfor you, but also for others
around you, um, so I think it'sreally important to start that
conversation somewhere.
So do go to the websiteendinglonesscomau, or Loneliness
(18:15):
Awareness Week, and actuallysupport the cause, because the
more of us that talk about it,the better it is, so that this
is actually again becoming partand parcel of our language and
the way we speak to each other.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
Thank you so much, michelle, for your time, and I'm
really looking forward toseeing more of the work you do
and sharing this episode withlisteners.
So thank you very much.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Thank you, Emily.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
You've been listening to Get Real talking mental
health and disability, broughtto you by the team at Irma 365.
Get Real is produced andpresented by Emily Webb, with
Carenza Louis-Smith and specialguests.
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Irma 365 provides special support for people with
complex mental ill health anddisability.
Established by consumers in1982, today Irma 365 is proud to
deliver services acrossVictoria and in the Northern
Territory.
Find out more at wwwirmaorg.
(19:26):
That's, thank you.
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