March 30, 2024 • 35 mins
This is a special episode in recognition of International Transgender Day of Visibility (TDOV) which happens every year on March 31. This day is for learning more about and celebrating the lives and achievements of transgender people. Our theme for this episode is inclusion for transgender and gender diverse people and why it matters. And what does meaningful inclusion really look like when it comes to things like community participation, health services, human rights and policy development, to name just a few.
Our guest for this episode is Tara Laursen who is ermha365’s Chief Operations Officer. Tara is bringing her own living experience as a member of the transgender community to this conversation.
General information and basic concepts:
Transhub 101
Minus18: Trans 101 – The Basics (youtube)
Support for transgender and questioning people:
Transgender Victoria
Queerspace
Support for family members/parents:
Transcend
Information for allies
GLAAD: Tips for allies of transgender people
Minus18: How to be a trans ally
Trans Justice Project: Conversations for Trans Justice
Information entioned in podcast
Equality Australia research
Banning trans women from sport ignores so many inconvenient truths by Natalie Feliks (online article)
Australian Human Rights Commission national project mapping threats to trans and gender diverse (TGD) human rights in Australia.
Helplines:
Lifeline
ermha365 provides mental health and disability support for people in Victoria and the Northern Territory. Find out more about our services at our website.
Helplines (Australia):
Lifeline 13 11 14
QLIFE 1800 184 527
13 YARN 13 92 76
Suicide Callback Service 1300 659 467
ermha365 acknowledges that our work in the community takes place on the Traditional Lands of many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples and therefore respectfully recognise their Elders, past and present, and the ongoing Custodianship of the Land and Water by all Members of these Communities.
We recognise people with lived experience who contribute to GET REAL podcast, and those who love, support and care for them. We recognise their strength, courage and unique perspective as a vital contribution so that we can learn, grow and achieve better outcomes together.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
ermha365 team (00:00):
GetReal is recorded on the unceded lands of
the Boon wurrung and Wurundjeripeoples of the Kulin Nation.
We acknowledge and pay ourrespects to their elders, past
and present.
We also acknowledge that theFirst Peoples of Australia are
the first storytellers, thefirst artists and the first
creators of culture and wecelebrate their enduring
(00:21):
connections to country knowledgeand stories and we celebrate
their enduring connections tocountry.
Knowledge and stories.
Welcome to Get Real talking.
Mental health and disabilitybrought to you by the team at
erma365.
(00:45):
Join our hosts Emily Webb andKarenza Louis-Smith, as we have
frank and fearless conversationswith special guests about all
things mental health andcomplexity.
We recognise people with livedexperience of mental ill health
and disability, as well as theirfamilies and carers.
We recognise their strength,courage and unique perspective
as a vital contribution to thispodcast so we can learn, grow
and achieve better outcomestogether.
Tara Laursen (01:10):
One of the reasons I decided that I really wanted
to do this podcast with you is Ithink it's so important to show
people that there are actuallytrans people everywhere, people
that we work with, there'scolleagues, there's friends,
there's family members.
Trans people are everywhere,and I think it's so important
that we actually share ourexperiences, because otherwise
we can often feel like we're theonly ones in the world.
Emily Webb (01:34):
Welcome to Get Real Talking Mental Health and
Disability.
I'm Emily Webb and I'm joinedby erma365's CEO and co-host,
Karenza Louis-Smith This is aspecial episode in recognition
of International Transgender Dayof Visibility, which happens
every year on March 31st.
(01:55):
This day is for learning moreabout and celebrating the lives
and achievements of transgenderpeople, and we also want to
acknowledge that, for reasonsincluding stigma, discrimination
and barriers to healthcare,transgender and gender diverse
people experience worse mentalhealth and high rates of
psychological distress.
(02:16):
It's not easy or even safe forall transgender people to feel
they can be visible in theircommunities.
Our theme for this episode isinclusion for transgender and
gender diverse people and why itmatters, and what does
meaningful inclusion really looklike when it comes to things
like community participation,health services, human rights
(02:40):
and policy development, just toname a few?
Our guest for this episode isTara Laursen, who is ermha 365's
Chief Operations Officer.
Tara started her career as ahousing support worker, then
became an occupational therapist, and she has worked in mental
health and community and socialservices ever since, including
(03:02):
organisations Launch Housing,nemai national Wellways, better
Health Network and the EasternMelbourne Primary Health Network
.
Tara is also a non-executiveboard member of several
organisations, including theVictorian Pride Centre.
Tara is bringing her own livingexperience as a member of the
(03:22):
transgender community to thisconversation, own living
experience as a member of thetransgender community to this
conversation.
And before we launch in, I wantto remind listeners that you
can get 24-7 support fromLifeline on 13, 11, 14.
And there is also QLife on1-800-184-527.
That's available in Australiafrom 3pm to midnight seven days
and that's for the LGBTIQA pluscommunity, also their families
(03:46):
and friends, and 13 Yarn, 13 9276 for First Nations Australians
.
Welcome, Tara, we are sopleased that you are our guest.
Tara Laursen (03:57):
Thank you, it's great to be here.
Emily Webb (04:00):
So, Tara, firstly, can you tell us why you chose to
work in the mental health andcommunity services space and why
you continue to do so?
Because it's not an easy areato work in.
Tara Laursen (04:11):
Yeah, but it's also a very rewarding space to
work in and, I guess, for me.
I've always had an interest increating inclusive communities.
So I grew up with deaf parentsand I just observed far too many
ways in which they weren't ableto do the things that were
important to them, or how a lotof doors just remained closed
for them, and especially alsohow hard it could be for them to
(04:33):
get any kind of health orsocial support services in place
.
So I've always been quiteinterested in really working on
inclusion in that space, and I'mvery interested in health, not
just as an absence of poorhealth, but also in enabling
people to do the things that areimportant to them.
Karenza Louis-Smith (04:49):
And, as Emily said at the start, this
episode why Transgender andDiverse Inclusion Matters is
actually really important,because this is International
Transgender Day of Visibility.
Basically, this day is forlearning more about and
celebrating the lives andachievements of transgender
people.
Now, not everyone listening tothis podcast is for learning
more about and celebrating thelives and achievements of
transgender people.
Now, not everyone listening tothis podcast is necessarily
going to understand what itmeans to be transgender,
(05:11):
identify as transgender, but youmight know people in your lives
, in your community, or justwant to know more.
So, Tara, I thought just tokind of get on the same page.
Let's do a bit of a trans 101.
You know, what does it meanwhen people identify as being
transgender and what is it thatthe community needs to
understand about that?
Tara Laursen (05:29):
It is a really good question and I think it's a
very important one to get outof the way early on.
Essentially, a transgenderperson is a person who was born
and given an assigned agendathat's different to the one that
they live in or present as, andthat can be in all sorts of
different ways.
I think an essential part ofthat understanding is to
recognise that the terms aroundsex characteristics and gender
(05:52):
are separate concepts.
Where one refers to your innatesense of yourself, the other
one is around embodiment andbody characteristics.
It's also important to rememberthat it's a really wide
community and people identify inmany different ways.
So that's why people are oftenusing the term of gender diverse
, which refers to people who mayidentify as being non-binary,
gender fluid or agender.
(06:13):
So that's people who feel thatnone of the genders out there
really fit their identity, orsome people who just can't be
bothered with gender at all.
Karenza Louis-Smith (06:22):
Fair enough , perfect.
I think that's got us kind ofonto the same page.
So, look, I really want to talka bit about lived and living
experience.
You know, and I guess thatphrase nothing about us without
us, you know, and that's been, Ithink, something that's been
really strong in what I wouldcall the LGBTIQA plus community,
I think really forever, and now, more broadly, I think it's
been adopted right across thewhole lived and living
(06:44):
experience community and it'sbeen a major focus of the
recommendations that came outwith Victoria's Royal Commission
into the mental health system.
So I'm keen to talk aboutmeaningful inclusion and what
does it look like fortransgender and gender diverse
people?
And also through, I guess, yourown lived and living experience
lens as well and the thingsthat you're all kind of
(07:05):
comfortable to share with ourlisteners today.
Why is this such an importantthing?
Tara Laursen (07:10):
It's a hugely important thing and I think it's
important on so many differentlevels.
First of all, a lot of transpeople can have a bit of a
complicated relationship tohealth and mental health because
for a very long time we wereconsidered as being mentally ill
just because of our genderidentities, which was a strange
experience for a lot of people.
But also, in addition, we knowthat many trans people don't
(07:33):
seek medical care or the typesof supports because they might
have their perception thatthey're not going to be welcomed
, they're not going to berespected, they're not going to
be safe.
I've certainly had my fairshare of experiences of the
healthcare system not reallybeing made for me.
But then there's also anotherdimension in that a lot of trans
people like myself have alsohad to access the healthcare
(07:53):
system to get some of the genderaffirming care that we wanted,
like hormones and surgery, andgetting through that process can
also be extremely difficultbecause you can feel like you're
being judged or you're beingscrutinized.
It's just fundamentally reallydehumanizing to hand your gender
identity into someone else'shands and just hope for them to
get along with you and actuallyagree.
(08:14):
And in my own experience, itmakes me feel like I am old when
I say this, but at the timewhen I started that journey I
didn't know this at the time.
But I quickly learned that theprevalent assumption was that if
you're trans, you also neededto be straight, otherwise you're
just confused.
So I completely failed to get adiagnosis at first because I
wasn't straight.
How old were you, tara?
Karenza Louis-Smith (08:36):
21.
That's a hell of a kind ofjourney to go through at that
age.
How did you even kind of knowwhere to begin?
How did you find that pathwayfor yourself?
Tara Laursen (08:45):
age.
How did you even kind of knowwhere to begin?
How did you find that pathwayfor yourself?
Well, I didn't really, and Ithink that's why I kind of
bombed it at first and I failedto get through the door in the
first instance because I didn'tknow what you had to say.
I just told them about, youknow who I was, and then, yeah,
finding the door in the firstplace was really hard, and it
was only through community andfinding, you know, friends, of
friends, of friends.
This was also before theinternet was the same thing as
(09:05):
it is now.
You know, there weren't as manyforums and all of that, so it
was really difficult, but thatshared community knowledge was
really, really important.
And I think that's also whereinclusion becomes a really key
question for services like ours,because a lot of people have
had negative experiences in manydifferent ways and I think it's
so much easier to remember thatone time where you had a bad
(09:28):
experience compared to the 10times where you had a positive
one, and word of mouth reallyspreads.
So I think if services aren'tseeing a lot of trans people,
sometimes because people talkabout them or people might not
want to disclose their genderidentity when they access the
service- it's a tricky one,isn't it Like do you walk into a
service and how is that servicewalking them in a way that it's
(09:49):
safe to kind of do that?
Karenza Louis-Smith (09:51):
I think that's really hard.
Tara Laursen (09:53):
Well, I think in many ways it can be, but it can
also be really simple and Ithink, like with any other
person, the key is really justacknowledging that the person is
the expert in their own life,and part of that is
understanding how they seethemselves and how they identify
and really respecting that.
Not pathologizing or puttingvalues judgments on how people
(10:14):
identify, but also askingquestions instead of assuming.
And I think another key conceptthat often comes up in these
conversations is around pronouns, which can be a bit confusing
for some people.
Essentially, pronoun refers tohow you want to be referred to
Commonly, that is, she, her orhe, him.
They can also be they, them forpeople who are, for instance,
non-binary and really notassuming anyone's pronouns based
(10:37):
on their appearance, based ontheir name or anything else, but
just asking them and then, whenthey tell you, respecting that.
Karenza Louis-Smith (10:43):
I sometimes think this is what people are
afraid of, afraid to ask.
You know, can I ask yourpronouns?
Is it okay for people to bekind of curious about your
pronouns and things too?
Tara Laursen (10:53):
Yeah, I think it's important we think about why we
ask the questions that we do,and ideally we would ask
everyone what their pronouns are, because we can't assume and
also through actively sharingour own, we're also signaling
that we're creating a spacewhere it's okay to talk about,
which is why, in my emailsignature, I always put my
pronouns in, so that people knowthat that's the same thing to
actually talk about.
Karenza Louis-Smith (11:12):
I think it's important to take time and
go look, I do feel a bit silly,I don't know, I don't understand
.
Um, how can I learn more?
How can I educate myself and wemight talk later about what it
means to be an ally as well buthow then, can you help to
educate other people too?
Because I think that's one ofthe really big things that buys
into stigma and discrimination.
Emily Webb (11:30):
You mentioned, tara, that people are the experts in
their own lives.
Let's talk about lived andliving experience advisory
committees, because everyone'sgot one now.
They've become a mainstay oforganisations, not just
not-for-profits, but, you know,big corporations have got them
health services.
Can you talk a bit about yourexperience professionally, but
(11:53):
also personally, with advisoryroles?
Tara Laursen (11:56):
Yeah, I think it's great that we're finally seeing
, from a policy perspective,that there's a lot more focus on
actually listening to thepeople that we're working with
across our sectors, becausewe've known for a long time that
the best people to identifywhat the problems are are the
people who are experiencingthose issues, and they're often
also the ones that come up withreally good solutions.
So I think it can be incrediblyvaluable to have these groups,
(12:18):
and I think some of them canlook in quite different ways.
I've personally been involvedon a few expert advisory
committees, for instance, withthe Victorian government, that
have been centred around LGBTIQAplus health and wellbeing, and
that's really bringing togetherexperts from within those
communities to inform publicpolicy and programmes, and I
think it's been a reallyvaluable space to also speak
(12:39):
from some lived experiencearound some of the experiences
I've had around healthcaresystems and other social
services and just some of theconfusion that you might face or
some of the invisible barriersthat might be in place, which
are some of the barriers thatare not put there from any ill
intent, but just because peoplemight not actually understand
what the ramifications ofcertain processes or systems
(12:59):
might be.
In other spaces, reference andadvisory groups can also be used
that are focused more on theidentity and not necessarily
people who have a professionalrole in that space, but really
valuing that lived experience isa discipline and is a
background of expertise as well.
It's really important to alsoensure that there's a focus on
(13:20):
intersectionality, which isanother concept that's thrown
around a lot, onintersectionality, which is
another concept that's thrownaround a lot.
So, in short, intersectionalityrecognizes that we don't just
walking around having oneidentity and one way of
experiencing the world, and it'snot just a matter of adding up
the different ways ofexperiencing it.
Like, in addition to beingtrans, I'm also same-sex
attracted, I'm also a whiteperson.
(13:40):
These things don't just add upnext to each other, they also
intersect, and that's where thewhole name comes from, because
the way that I experience beinga trans person is influenced by
those dimensions as well.
They don't just sit neatly nextto each other, they influence
each other as well.
Karenza Louis-Smith (13:56):
This is really exciting stuff, I think,
tara, when you start to thinkabout how people with lived and
living experience voices canactually begin to influence
policy planning, thinking,services and supports.
And I'm really excited by thework that you're doing here at
Irma as well, including thestuff that you're doing about
leading our lived and livingexperience advisory committee
(14:17):
too, advisory Committee too, and, in particular, about how you
know ensuring diverserepresentation.
Again, you talk aboutintersectionality, but that
diversity, as well of experience, is reflected in lived and
living experience advisorycouncils or groups.
Tara Laursen (14:31):
Yes, it's a fantastic opportunity to really
work with that group and lookingat how we can crystallise all
the learnings that we've hadfrom engaging lived and living
experience for a really longtime, but also recognising some
of the things that are happeningout there in the sector what's
happening in some of the groupsthat I've been in and really
look at how we can bring that in.
And I've been really lucky toget to kick that off and engage
(14:51):
people in that process.
And it's been really importantto me to make sure that we
capture a lot of different typesof lived and living experience
because, with thatintersectional approach,
people's experience of mentalhealth or addiction or
disabilities is deeplyinfluenced by how they are in
the world as well.
So it's been really importantfor me to seek out some voices
from different communities andwe've put in a lot of work to
(15:14):
really map out some of thepeople in this space that we
thought would be fantasticvoices.
So watch this space.
We might have some goodannouncements to make soon.
Emily Webb (15:23):
That's exciting.
Yeah, I'm really excited forthat work too, and something
about the work that is done inmental health is about community
participation as a way to, youknow, have good mental health
and live the kind of life youwant.
And you know a lot of the Idon't even think I can call it
conversation, the so-calleddebate and really there's a lot
(15:44):
of hate on out there at themoment, particularly for trans
and gender diverse people aroundissues around women's spaces
and sport.
And there was an excellentopinion piece online on
newscomau and I was a bitshocked it was on newscomau in
the first place, but I was gladit was, because that's got a lot
of you know gets across a lotof eyeballs.
(16:06):
This piece was by a Melbournewriter called Natalie Feliks and
it was published in Septemberlast year and we'll put a link
in the show notes to it, and itcame across my Twitter feed, and
Natalie's a huge sports fan aswell as being a transgender
woman.
It was about this so-calleddebate about trans women
competing in sport, and thetitle was Banning Trans Women
(16:26):
from Sport.
Ignores so Many InconvenientTruths, and Natalie wrote about
the issue being, in her words,grossly oversimplified.
I thought it was an amazingpiece.
I shared it with my oldestdaughter and some friends.
I just want to read a paragraphfrom it.
So Natalie wrote the reality isthat trans women are among the
most discriminated people insociety.
This isn't a cue to emotion.
(16:48):
This is a simple fact backed upby statistics on mental health,
income and education, and theseare the facts that cause the
ripple effect that make elitesports participation totally
unobtainable for any aspiringtrans athlete.
There is a political waveagainst trans people in society
at the moment, and this debateis just another aspect of that,
(17:10):
and so we know participation inactivities like sport, art,
social groups is reallyimportant for wellbeing.
So, tara, what impact at thecommunity level is this?
What Natalie phrased thepolitical wave against trans
people having on inclusion orexclusion more like it in the
example of sports, evennon-competitive recreation
(17:31):
activities for transgenderpeople, and that is a long
question, but I think thatarticle was really great as a
starting point to discuss.
Tara Laursen (17:40):
Well, first of all , I think it's fantastic that
there's so many people who aresuddenly really engaged in
women's sport.
I've been very surprised fromparticularly some men who've not
had a word to say about women'ssport in decades and now all of
a sudden it is their keyconcern.
So I think that's always greatwhen women's sport gets a bit of
a lift.
I think the question ofcompetitive sport competitive
(18:01):
elite sport, I should say is notan easy one, and especially
when you start picking apartbiology as part of sex and sex
characteristics, and that initself is just a lot more
complex than the neat binary.
So I'm not a biologist.
I do understand that there'sbeen a lot of difficulties in
actually defining where thatneat line between male and
female they're looking foractually is, and I think it's
(18:23):
fair to say that science isreally the major voice on this
debate, or we should call it so,the guidelines that are being
looked at by these elite sportleagues, which represent a tiny
minority of sport and a tinyminority of the people who
engage in sport.
They tend to trickle down tolevels that aren't competitive
at all, even, and unfortunatelythey can result in exclusion
(18:45):
from even a local sports club.
So because a professional eliteleague might decide to restrict
trans women's participation.
Sometimes that can trickle downto all other clubs that are
engaging in the same sport, evenif it's not competitive at all,
and unfortunately that meansthat people are being booted out
of clubs and they aren't ableto even participate in sports.
(19:06):
So I'm personally I'm a hugefan of a lot of different
outdoor activities and sports,but, on a personal note, I've
just decided to stay clear ofanything that's competitive
because I really don't want toget caught up in that culture
war and unfortunately it's alsomade it really hard to engage in
team sports.
And I find it really ironic howthe focus in this debate is so
(19:27):
often on what's called women'ssafety, but it just neatly
ignores the fact that transpeople, and especially trans
women, are far more often thevictims of crime and violence,
and unfortunately we're notseeing a focus on that.
We are seeing positive thingsthat are happening as well, for
instance, around pride roundsand violence, and unfortunately
we're not seeing a focus on that.
We are seeing positive thingsthat are happening as well, for
instance, around pride roundsand matches.
They can be really important.
But I also feel like oftenthere's a strong focus on being
(19:51):
gay, lesbian and bisexual,bisexual inclusive and there's
really an engagement with transinclusion in that space.
So sometimes we see pridematches from leagues where trans
people can't even compete, sothere's no way we can take part
in the pride round now, justlistening to that just blows my
mind.
Karenza Louis-Smith (20:07):
When you think you know we're actually
excluding a part of ourpopulation from taking part in
sports.
I mean, it's just words.
Words fail me, absolutely failme, and I think, tara, you're
right.
That last point that you make.
You know that I'm saying thisas a woman that focuses often on
a woman's safety.
But trans people, andespecially trans women, are far
(20:28):
more often the victims thanperpetrators of crime, and
they're the victims in thisplace too, and this is the bit
that again blows my mind, mymind.
So right now, the australianhuman rights commission is doing
a national project mappingthreats to trans and gender
diverse human rights inAustralia.
So, mapping threats and askingfor living experience
(20:49):
submissions I think you justhave to look, don't you, at the
histories of hate crimes, thethings that have been happening.
What would you like peoplelistening to our conversation
today to understand about whatit's like to have your rights
debated by people who have noidea what your life is like?
And I know how this feels.
I mean, people that listen tothis podcast know I'm, you know,
openly gay.
(21:10):
I'm married to my wife.
It was pretty full on when wehad the kind of plebiscite the
debate on whether or not, youknow, gay people are allowed to
get married or not, and you knowit's like why does everybody
else have the right to choosewhat I can do with my life?
You know, and I went through awave of emotions.
I can only imagine that'smagnified a billion times when
the things I think that perhaps,as a trans person, you're
(21:33):
facing every day and you know,here we are.
As Emily said, it's on X,twitter, whatever we call it
these days and papers.
There's debate everywhere.
You know what, yeah, what doyou want people who are
listening today to know aboutwhat that's like for you?
Tara Laursen (21:47):
going back to the marriage equality plebiscite,
that was really hard, and, as alesbian myself, I found that
really challenging in all theways.
I do think that a bigdifference, though, is that when
we had that plebiscite, mostpeople in Australia at least,
knew someone who was directlyimpacted.
It wasn't just a matter ofanswering the question about
(22:07):
marriage equality.
It was also about how is thisgoing to influence Karenza, how
is this going to influence thisother person at work who I quite
like?
And research from EqualityAustralia shows that it's only
about one in 10 Australians whoreport that they personally know
a trans person well, so it canoften become a lot more abstract
for people, and there's so muchfear-mongering out there as
well.
(22:27):
The same research also showsthat the overwhelming majority
of Australians support equalrights and protections for trans
people.
I'm a bit concerned about theway it gets portrayed in media
as well, because having everyonesit together and agreeing is
really an exciting story to tell.
So often there's a bit of apull towards the drama, towards
(22:48):
the conflict.
Having mentioned some of thesestatistics, there might be
people out there who feel likethese questions aren't that
relevant to them in their life,and they might not know anyone
who's trans.
If you're one of those peoplewho say that they don't know
anyone who's trans, if you'reone of those people who say that
they don't know anyone who'strans, the only thing that means
is actually just that you don'tknow anyone who's trans, who's
chosen to share that fact aboutthemselves with you.
(23:12):
I do want to touch on the wholeconcept around coming out and
visibility, especiallyrecognizing that it is
transgender visibility For transpeople coming out can be very
different than it is transgenderday of visibility.
But trans people coming out canbe very different than it is
coming out based on yoursexuality.
For instance, me coming out asa lesbian is in my interest
because it shows people who I amin the world.
It shows people who I love.
(23:32):
It can be hard for me to beseen if I'm not out in that way,
whereas if I come out to peopleas a transgender person, it can
also make them see me as lessreal in my gender and that's a
really uncomfortable experienceto have.
It can also be seen as invitingdebate about my gender, which
is the last thing that I want.
Karenza Louis-Smith (23:51):
Yeah, it would be the last thing.
And it's interesting, isn't it?
I mean, I think about comingout like I'm in I'm 54, right.
So I came out a long, long timeago.
It was terrifying, it was right.
So I came out a long, long timeago.
It was terrifying, it wasabsolutely terrifying coming out
, and you know, I think theworld for someone like me today
has become a lot easier to comeout.
But I think what I'm hearingyou say is it's still as hard,
if not harder, for trans peopleto come out.
(24:12):
I think that's the there's athere's a really strong
difference here, the point thatyou're making it can be harder.
Tara Laursen (24:18):
but I think the challenge is also around that
ongoing experience of coming out.
I mean me coming out now isvery different, where I, in many
ways, I fly under the radar andI'm seen in the gender that I
want to be seen as.
So for me, coming out cansometimes question whether I am
in that gender at all to somepeople, whereas for someone
(24:38):
coming out early days intransition, it can be hard
because they're also askingpeople to see them in a
different way than they havepreviously, asking people to use
different pronouns, askingpeople to respect a different
way of identifying.
So I think it changes over yourlifetime.
But I think it's also importantto acknowledge that a lot of
trans people don't really feelthe need to be out, and I think
that's where visibility becomesreally difficult, because if
(25:01):
you're just going about yourlife and people are seeing you
in the gender that you identifyas, then you might not want to
draw any attention to that.
Yeah, that's right, even thoughthe question of visibility can
be a little bit delicate fortrans people.
I think one of the reasons Idecided that I really wanted to
do this podcast with you is Ithink it's so important to show
people that there are actuallytrans people everywhere.
(25:23):
We have a large organisation,of course.
There's people that we workwith, there's colleagues,
there's friends, there's familymembers.
Trans people are everywhere,and I think it's so important
that we actually share ourexperiences, because otherwise
we can often feel like we're theonly ones in the world.
Karenza Louis-Smith (25:39):
I think, tara, you hit a really pertinent
point, don't you?
Then how does trans visibilityincrease, you know?
And how do we haveconversations like we're having
today, actually, you know,having, I think we talk about,
you know, at Get Real?
It's all about frank andfearless conversations.
Let's have them, you know.
Let's put the real stuff out onthe table.
How do we do that?
There's a question I want toask you as well.
(26:03):
I want to talk about allyship,because I think that's one way
that things can actually help tochange too.
How do people do itrespectfully and meaningfully,
so not just saying, hey, I'm anally.
You know my cousins, sisters,best friends, uncles, nieces, oh
yeah, you know, we've hadcoffee together.
How can people understand, Ithink, what you're really
talking about here and helpactually build that visibility
(26:25):
and that awareness as well and Ithink awareness equals
visibility too that noteveryone's the same right.
We're not this homogenous grouplike.
We're a beautiful, richlydiverse race of people.
How do allies help this journey?
Tara Laursen (26:40):
I think a lot of it is really similar to being an
ally to other communities aswell, and I think it's really
focusing on the verb of allyship, so not making it about
someone's identity to be an ally, but more focused on what you
can do as an ally.
I think a key one is reallyaround listening and acting as
an amplifier in a way, like theway that Emily did before by
(27:01):
bringing in that article, soreferring to what people in
community say, referring totheir voices, rather than
speaking on behalf of.
Another key thing is reallyspeaking up and asking questions
so that we don't have to.
We all have that person we knowwho might say some dubious
things, and I think it can bereally helpful when other people
actually question some of thosethings rather than waiting for
(27:23):
the person who's directlyimpacted to do so.
There's also a lot of resourcesout there and we can add some
of these in the show notes aswell.
But of course, there'squestions around when you
interact with people who aretrans and maybe thinking about
some of the questions you mightwant to ask and question why you
want to ask those questions,especially when it comes to
asking stuff like what people'sreal name is, or if you can see
(27:44):
a childhood photo or some ofthese things that might be quite
sensitive for people.
Karenza Louis-Smith (27:49):
I think that's a naivety thing, isn't it
Like people are deeply curious,but I think you have to think
through the impact, sometimes,of what you say.
You know, don't you?
I think that's the message here.
Tara Laursen (28:01):
I think so.
Yeah, I think it's reallythinking about why.
Why is that an interestingquestion.
How would you feel if you werebeing asked that question?
Emily Webb (28:12):
Tari, you have referenced some reports and
studies on the lives oftransgender people and gender
diverse people, but there's alot more work to be done and you
know data is so important forunderstanding communities and
planning services.
At a very basic level.
It's how governments planservices.
Are institutions andgovernments listening to expert
advice about how to supporttrans and gender diverse people
(28:34):
in Australia?
I think, from my perspective,like of viewing how things are
spoken about, there seems to bea bit of trepidation or
unwillingness and then the onlyissues you hear are from the
politicians who want to get intothe culture, wars and want to
like, spark outrage, and it'svery, very toxic.
(28:55):
It's very damaging.
But yeah, I'm curious aboutthat because of your own
experience.
But also, you work inhealthcare.
You work in mental healthservices.
Tara Laursen (29:04):
Yeah.
So unfortunately we don't havevery good data at all and I
think one of the key things thatI do want to raise is that at
the time of the last census, thedecision was made to go against
the expert advice from the ABSand indeed there were no
questions around gender identityincluded, and I think that
points well towards that stigma,because apparently it's too
(29:24):
sensitive to ask these questions.
When you're asking people abouttheir personal life, their
religion, their income, youcan't ask them about their
gender.
Apparently that's too much, toofar.
So hopefully that'll change,because if we're not asking
these questions, we don'tactually know anything about the
community.
We do know a few things becausea lot of important research is
being done, but obviously if wedon't have that macro level look
(29:47):
at the community and theAustralian population then it's
much easier to dismiss thehealth and social needs of a
community that you refuse tocount or to make count.
Emily Webb (29:56):
And it allows also people who are critical of
transgender people, who are likejust basically discriminatory.
They can just throw anythingaround, like oh, there's an
explosion of, you know, childrengetting gender affirming
services.
There's no stats to back it up.
I'm always like where's yourstats, Where's your evidence?
Like that's always my point,and it just allows the
(30:19):
misinformation anddisinformation to fly.
Tara Laursen (30:23):
Yeah, and I think that's really interesting
parallels to be made.
I remember seeing some reallyinteresting comments based on
when we no longer determinedthat being left-handed was a
fault or an illness or whatever.
Then all of a sudden so manymore people are left-handed,
because we recognize thatactually some people are
left-handed and it just seems sobasic.
(30:44):
But I think the fact thatpeople have a lot more awareness
of French and that is actuallya thing that exists I think it's
pretty obvious that that'sgoing to mean that more people
are going to reflect on this,more people are going to ask
questions about it, and I think,unfortunately, we are seeing
some negative impacts from someof these debates.
I know, for instance, that oneof the insurers that works with
(31:06):
GPs have decided that if a GPengages in gender affirming care
, then they can lose theirindemnity insurance because
there might be a teeny, tinychance that someone might regret
something along the way.
And that's a huge impactbecause that impacts everyone's
access.
You can't really imagine aninsurer going out saying, oh,
you can't do this treatment forheart disease or you can't
(31:29):
screen for this other condition.
Yeah, it's really hard toimagine this happening in any
other context.
Karenza Louis-Smith (31:36):
So, just going off script, I like to go
rogue.
There are people listening tothis podcast who might be
sitting here questioning whothey are.
It's simply, as you know, whoam I and feeling that the gender
I was assigned at birth is notthe gender that I feel, and
you've talked a lot about yourexperiences and how that was
hard and difficult for you.
But what advice would you givesomeone who was 18, 19 or 20,
(31:58):
you know, in those ages when youstarted to begin to explore
what avenues and things and yousaid at the start you kind of
you know, I think your wordswere you blew it.
You know you didn't get to theright place If you were to sit
back.
You know, even if you werelucky enough to sit in a room
with your younger self, you know, all those years ago, what
advice would you share?
Tara Laursen (32:17):
That's such a good question.
I think the key one is reallyto be brave and have these frank
and fearless conversations.
I mean obviously, big caveat onthat Sometimes people are not
safe to have those.
So do reflect on the situationthat you're in and whether you
might need to address somesafety concerns first, but
assuming that people are in safeenvironments, then do please
(32:37):
have the conversations, talkabout how you feel, talk about
how you actually perceive gender, because gender is such a
complex thing and we like toimagine that it exists just as
this kind of static thing, butit changes hugely over time
changes of a culture, there's somany things that influence it.
So I think it's quite importantfor people to think about what
they actually think of when theythink of gender, because it can
(32:59):
be done in so many differentways.
And I think it's important thatpeople have a bit of a an
expansive approach to it andreally think about what works
for them, what doesn't work forthem, but also, by all means,
try to.
You know, try some things out.
You know life is for for tryingthings and figuring out what
sticks and what about for umfamily and friends and carers?
Karenza Louis-Smith (33:18):
you know family and friends and carers.
You know family and friends andcarers of someone who's sitting
in this space right nowthinking I want to reach out and
I want to have thisconversation like it's a really
big conversation.
What advice would you give tofamily, friends, carers, kin.
Tara Laursen (33:33):
Obviously, I think it's great to ask questions,
but I think it's also importantto recognise that if a person
might not fully know where theysit, that that can be extremely
confronting as well at the sametime.
So I think it's about findingthat right pace in asking the
questions and maybe tapping intosome of the resources that
exist.
Like I know, there's afantastic group called Transcend
that works with parents oftrans and gender diverse people
(33:56):
as well.
Emily Webb (33:58):
So, Tara, we ask this of all our guests guests
and it's about how you take careof your own mental health.
Tara Laursen (34:05):
Yeah, for me, it's absolutely about exercise.
I really need to move to staywell, and it's something I've
always known from quite an earlyage is that I just can't get
feelings out of my system if Idon't move.
That's really the way that Iprocess things.
I need to also be connected andto spend time with others and,
you know, have thoseconversations and adventures,
(34:26):
because I really rely on beingactive.
That's also why it irks me somuch when there's those
questions around sport andwhether we should be allowed to
do these things at all, becauseit is such a crucial part of
wellbeing.
Emily Webb (34:38):
Tara, this has been an amazing conversation and,
yeah, I just want to thank youso much for sharing your living
experience.
It's powerful and it's going tobe really helpful.
Tara Laursen (34:48):
Thank you, it's been such a delight.
ermha365 team (34:54):
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Get Real on your preferredpodcast listening player.
You've been listening to GetReal talking mental health and
disability, brought to you bythe team at Irma 365.
Get Real is produced andpresented by Emily Webb, with
Corenza Louis-Smith and specialguests.
(35:14):
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
GetReal is recorded on the unceded lands of
the Boon wurrung and Wurundjeripeoples of the Kulin Nation.
We acknowledge and pay ourrespects to their elders, past
and present.
We also acknowledge that theFirst Peoples of Australia are
the first storytellers, thefirst artists and the first
creators of culture and wecelebrate their enduring
(00:21):
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their enduring connections tocountry.
Knowledge and stories.
Welcome to Get Real talking.
Mental health and disabilitybrought to you by the team at
erma365.
(00:45):
Join our hosts Emily Webb andKarenza Louis-Smith, as we have
frank and fearless conversationswith special guests about all
things mental health andcomplexity.
We recognise people with livedexperience of mental ill health
and disability, as well as theirfamilies and carers.
We recognise their strength,courage and unique perspective
as a vital contribution to thispodcast so we can learn, grow
and achieve better outcomestogether.
Tara Laursen (01:10):
One of the reasons I decided that I really wanted
to do this podcast with you is Ithink it's so important to show
people that there are actuallytrans people everywhere, people
that we work with, there'scolleagues, there's friends,
there's family members.
Trans people are everywhere,and I think it's so important
that we actually share ourexperiences, because otherwise
we can often feel like we're theonly ones in the world.
Emily Webb (01:34):
Welcome to Get Real Talking Mental Health and
Disability.
I'm Emily Webb and I'm joinedby erma365's CEO and co-host,
Karenza Louis-Smith This is aspecial episode in recognition
of International Transgender Dayof Visibility, which happens
every year on March 31st.
(01:55):
This day is for learning moreabout and celebrating the lives
and achievements of transgenderpeople, and we also want to
acknowledge that, for reasonsincluding stigma, discrimination
and barriers to healthcare,transgender and gender diverse
people experience worse mentalhealth and high rates of
psychological distress.
(02:16):
It's not easy or even safe forall transgender people to feel
they can be visible in theircommunities.
Our theme for this episode isinclusion for transgender and
gender diverse people and why itmatters, and what does
meaningful inclusion really looklike when it comes to things
like community participation,health services, human rights
(02:40):
and policy development, just toname a few?
Our guest for this episode isTara Laursen, who is ermha 365's
Chief Operations Officer.
Tara started her career as ahousing support worker, then
became an occupational therapist, and she has worked in mental
health and community and socialservices ever since, including
(03:02):
organisations Launch Housing,nemai national Wellways, better
Health Network and the EasternMelbourne Primary Health Network
.
Tara is also a non-executiveboard member of several
organisations, including theVictorian Pride Centre.
Tara is bringing her own livingexperience as a member of the
(03:22):
transgender community to thisconversation, own living
experience as a member of thetransgender community to this
conversation.
And before we launch in, I wantto remind listeners that you
can get 24-7 support fromLifeline on 13, 11, 14.
And there is also QLife on1-800-184-527.
That's available in Australiafrom 3pm to midnight seven days
and that's for the LGBTIQA pluscommunity, also their families
(03:46):
and friends, and 13 Yarn, 13 9276 for First Nations Australians
.
Welcome, Tara, we are sopleased that you are our guest.
Tara Laursen (03:57):
Thank you, it's great to be here.
Emily Webb (04:00):
So, Tara, firstly, can you tell us why you chose to
work in the mental health andcommunity services space and why
you continue to do so?
Because it's not an easy areato work in.
Tara Laursen (04:11):
Yeah, but it's also a very rewarding space to
work in and, I guess, for me.
I've always had an interest increating inclusive communities.
So I grew up with deaf parentsand I just observed far too many
ways in which they weren't ableto do the things that were
important to them, or how a lotof doors just remained closed
for them, and especially alsohow hard it could be for them to
(04:33):
get any kind of health orsocial support services in place
.
So I've always been quiteinterested in really working on
inclusion in that space, and I'mvery interested in health, not
just as an absence of poorhealth, but also in enabling
people to do the things that areimportant to them.
Karenza Louis-Smith (04:49):
And, as Emily said at the start, this
episode why Transgender andDiverse Inclusion Matters is
actually really important,because this is International
Transgender Day of Visibility.
Basically, this day is forlearning more about and
celebrating the lives andachievements of transgender
people.
Now, not everyone listening tothis podcast is for learning
more about and celebrating thelives and achievements of
transgender people.
Now, not everyone listening tothis podcast is necessarily
going to understand what itmeans to be transgender,
(05:11):
identify as transgender, but youmight know people in your lives
, in your community, or justwant to know more.
So, Tara, I thought just tokind of get on the same page.
Let's do a bit of a trans 101.
You know, what does it meanwhen people identify as being
transgender and what is it thatthe community needs to
understand about that?
Tara Laursen (05:29):
It is a really good question and I think it's a
very important one to get outof the way early on.
Essentially, a transgenderperson is a person who was born
and given an assigned agendathat's different to the one that
they live in or present as, andthat can be in all sorts of
different ways.
I think an essential part ofthat understanding is to
recognise that the terms aroundsex characteristics and gender
(05:52):
are separate concepts.
Where one refers to your innatesense of yourself, the other
one is around embodiment andbody characteristics.
It's also important to rememberthat it's a really wide
community and people identify inmany different ways.
So that's why people are oftenusing the term of gender diverse
, which refers to people who mayidentify as being non-binary,
gender fluid or agender.
(06:13):
So that's people who feel thatnone of the genders out there
really fit their identity, orsome people who just can't be
bothered with gender at all.
Karenza Louis-Smith (06:22):
Fair enough , perfect.
I think that's got us kind ofonto the same page.
So, look, I really want to talka bit about lived and living
experience.
You know, and I guess thatphrase nothing about us without
us, you know, and that's been, Ithink, something that's been
really strong in what I wouldcall the LGBTIQA plus community,
I think really forever, and now, more broadly, I think it's
been adopted right across thewhole lived and living
(06:44):
experience community and it'sbeen a major focus of the
recommendations that came outwith Victoria's Royal Commission
into the mental health system.
So I'm keen to talk aboutmeaningful inclusion and what
does it look like fortransgender and gender diverse
people?
And also through, I guess, yourown lived and living experience
lens as well and the thingsthat you're all kind of
(07:05):
comfortable to share with ourlisteners today.
Why is this such an importantthing?
Tara Laursen (07:10):
It's a hugely important thing and I think it's
important on so many differentlevels.
First of all, a lot of transpeople can have a bit of a
complicated relationship tohealth and mental health because
for a very long time we wereconsidered as being mentally ill
just because of our genderidentities, which was a strange
experience for a lot of people.
But also, in addition, we knowthat many trans people don't
(07:33):
seek medical care or the typesof supports because they might
have their perception thatthey're not going to be welcomed
, they're not going to berespected, they're not going to
be safe.
I've certainly had my fairshare of experiences of the
healthcare system not reallybeing made for me.
But then there's also anotherdimension in that a lot of trans
people like myself have alsohad to access the healthcare
(07:53):
system to get some of the genderaffirming care that we wanted,
like hormones and surgery, andgetting through that process can
also be extremely difficultbecause you can feel like you're
being judged or you're beingscrutinized.
It's just fundamentally reallydehumanizing to hand your gender
identity into someone else'shands and just hope for them to
get along with you and actuallyagree.
(08:14):
And in my own experience, itmakes me feel like I am old when
I say this, but at the timewhen I started that journey I
didn't know this at the time.
But I quickly learned that theprevalent assumption was that if
you're trans, you also neededto be straight, otherwise you're
just confused.
So I completely failed to get adiagnosis at first because I
wasn't straight.
How old were you, tara?
Karenza Louis-Smith (08:36):
21.
That's a hell of a kind ofjourney to go through at that
age.
How did you even kind of knowwhere to begin?
How did you find that pathwayfor yourself?
Tara Laursen (08:45):
age.
How did you even kind of knowwhere to begin?
How did you find that pathwayfor yourself?
Well, I didn't really, and Ithink that's why I kind of
bombed it at first and I failedto get through the door in the
first instance because I didn'tknow what you had to say.
I just told them about, youknow who I was, and then, yeah,
finding the door in the firstplace was really hard, and it
was only through community andfinding, you know, friends, of
friends, of friends.
This was also before theinternet was the same thing as
(09:05):
it is now.
You know, there weren't as manyforums and all of that, so it
was really difficult, but thatshared community knowledge was
really, really important.
And I think that's also whereinclusion becomes a really key
question for services like ours,because a lot of people have
had negative experiences in manydifferent ways and I think it's
so much easier to remember thatone time where you had a bad
(09:28):
experience compared to the 10times where you had a positive
one, and word of mouth reallyspreads.
So I think if services aren'tseeing a lot of trans people,
sometimes because people talkabout them or people might not
want to disclose their genderidentity when they access the
service- it's a tricky one,isn't it Like do you walk into a
service and how is that servicewalking them in a way that it's
(09:49):
safe to kind of do that?
Karenza Louis-Smith (09:51):
I think that's really hard.
Tara Laursen (09:53):
Well, I think in many ways it can be, but it can
also be really simple and Ithink, like with any other
person, the key is really justacknowledging that the person is
the expert in their own life,and part of that is
understanding how they seethemselves and how they identify
and really respecting that.
Not pathologizing or puttingvalues judgments on how people
(10:14):
identify, but also askingquestions instead of assuming.
And I think another key conceptthat often comes up in these
conversations is around pronouns, which can be a bit confusing
for some people.
Essentially, pronoun refers tohow you want to be referred to
Commonly, that is, she, her orhe, him.
They can also be they, them forpeople who are, for instance,
non-binary and really notassuming anyone's pronouns based
(10:37):
on their appearance, based ontheir name or anything else, but
just asking them and then, whenthey tell you, respecting that.
Karenza Louis-Smith (10:43):
I sometimes think this is what people are
afraid of, afraid to ask.
You know, can I ask yourpronouns?
Is it okay for people to bekind of curious about your
pronouns and things too?
Tara Laursen (10:53):
Yeah, I think it's important we think about why we
ask the questions that we do,and ideally we would ask
everyone what their pronouns are, because we can't assume and
also through actively sharingour own, we're also signaling
that we're creating a spacewhere it's okay to talk about,
which is why, in my emailsignature, I always put my
pronouns in, so that people knowthat that's the same thing to
actually talk about.
Karenza Louis-Smith (11:12):
I think it's important to take time and
go look, I do feel a bit silly,I don't know, I don't understand
.
Um, how can I learn more?
How can I educate myself and wemight talk later about what it
means to be an ally as well buthow then, can you help to
educate other people too?
Because I think that's one ofthe really big things that buys
into stigma and discrimination.
Emily Webb (11:30):
You mentioned, tara, that people are the experts in
their own lives.
Let's talk about lived andliving experience advisory
committees, because everyone'sgot one now.
They've become a mainstay oforganisations, not just
not-for-profits, but, you know,big corporations have got them
health services.
Can you talk a bit about yourexperience professionally, but
(11:53):
also personally, with advisoryroles?
Tara Laursen (11:56):
Yeah, I think it's great that we're finally seeing
, from a policy perspective,that there's a lot more focus on
actually listening to thepeople that we're working with
across our sectors, becausewe've known for a long time that
the best people to identifywhat the problems are are the
people who are experiencingthose issues, and they're often
also the ones that come up withreally good solutions.
So I think it can be incrediblyvaluable to have these groups,
(12:18):
and I think some of them canlook in quite different ways.
I've personally been involvedon a few expert advisory
committees, for instance, withthe Victorian government, that
have been centred around LGBTIQAplus health and wellbeing, and
that's really bringing togetherexperts from within those
communities to inform publicpolicy and programmes, and I
think it's been a reallyvaluable space to also speak
(12:39):
from some lived experiencearound some of the experiences
I've had around healthcaresystems and other social
services and just some of theconfusion that you might face or
some of the invisible barriersthat might be in place, which
are some of the barriers thatare not put there from any ill
intent, but just because peoplemight not actually understand
what the ramifications ofcertain processes or systems
(12:59):
might be.
In other spaces, reference andadvisory groups can also be used
that are focused more on theidentity and not necessarily
people who have a professionalrole in that space, but really
valuing that lived experience isa discipline and is a
background of expertise as well.
It's really important to alsoensure that there's a focus on
(13:20):
intersectionality, which isanother concept that's thrown
around a lot, onintersectionality, which is
another concept that's thrownaround a lot.
So, in short, intersectionalityrecognizes that we don't just
walking around having oneidentity and one way of
experiencing the world, and it'snot just a matter of adding up
the different ways ofexperiencing it.
Like, in addition to beingtrans, I'm also same-sex
attracted, I'm also a whiteperson.
(13:40):
These things don't just add upnext to each other, they also
intersect, and that's where thewhole name comes from, because
the way that I experience beinga trans person is influenced by
those dimensions as well.
They don't just sit neatly nextto each other, they influence
each other as well.
Karenza Louis-Smith (13:56):
This is really exciting stuff, I think,
tara, when you start to thinkabout how people with lived and
living experience voices canactually begin to influence
policy planning, thinking,services and supports.
And I'm really excited by thework that you're doing here at
Irma as well, including thestuff that you're doing about
leading our lived and livingexperience advisory committee
(14:17):
too, advisory Committee too, and, in particular, about how you
know ensuring diverserepresentation.
Again, you talk aboutintersectionality, but that
diversity, as well of experience, is reflected in lived and
living experience advisorycouncils or groups.
Tara Laursen (14:31):
Yes, it's a fantastic opportunity to really
work with that group and lookingat how we can crystallise all
the learnings that we've hadfrom engaging lived and living
experience for a really longtime, but also recognising some
of the things that are happeningout there in the sector what's
happening in some of the groupsthat I've been in and really
look at how we can bring that in.
And I've been really lucky toget to kick that off and engage
(14:51):
people in that process.
And it's been really importantto me to make sure that we
capture a lot of different typesof lived and living experience
because, with thatintersectional approach,
people's experience of mentalhealth or addiction or
disabilities is deeplyinfluenced by how they are in
the world as well.
So it's been really importantfor me to seek out some voices
from different communities andwe've put in a lot of work to
(15:14):
really map out some of thepeople in this space that we
thought would be fantasticvoices.
So watch this space.
We might have some goodannouncements to make soon.
Emily Webb (15:23):
That's exciting.
Yeah, I'm really excited forthat work too, and something
about the work that is done inmental health is about community
participation as a way to, youknow, have good mental health
and live the kind of life youwant.
And you know a lot of the Idon't even think I can call it
conversation, the so-calleddebate and really there's a lot
(15:44):
of hate on out there at themoment, particularly for trans
and gender diverse people aroundissues around women's spaces
and sport.
And there was an excellentopinion piece online on
newscomau and I was a bitshocked it was on newscomau in
the first place, but I was gladit was, because that's got a lot
of you know gets across a lotof eyeballs.
(16:06):
This piece was by a Melbournewriter called Natalie Feliks and
it was published in Septemberlast year and we'll put a link
in the show notes to it, and itcame across my Twitter feed, and
Natalie's a huge sports fan aswell as being a transgender
woman.
It was about this so-calleddebate about trans women
competing in sport, and thetitle was Banning Trans Women
(16:26):
from Sport.
Ignores so Many InconvenientTruths, and Natalie wrote about
the issue being, in her words,grossly oversimplified.
I thought it was an amazingpiece.
I shared it with my oldestdaughter and some friends.
I just want to read a paragraphfrom it.
So Natalie wrote the reality isthat trans women are among the
most discriminated people insociety.
This isn't a cue to emotion.
(16:48):
This is a simple fact backed upby statistics on mental health,
income and education, and theseare the facts that cause the
ripple effect that make elitesports participation totally
unobtainable for any aspiringtrans athlete.
There is a political waveagainst trans people in society
at the moment, and this debateis just another aspect of that,
(17:10):
and so we know participation inactivities like sport, art,
social groups is reallyimportant for wellbeing.
So, tara, what impact at thecommunity level is this?
What Natalie phrased thepolitical wave against trans
people having on inclusion orexclusion more like it in the
example of sports, evennon-competitive recreation
(17:31):
activities for transgenderpeople, and that is a long
question, but I think thatarticle was really great as a
starting point to discuss.
Tara Laursen (17:40):
Well, first of all , I think it's fantastic that
there's so many people who aresuddenly really engaged in
women's sport.
I've been very surprised fromparticularly some men who've not
had a word to say about women'ssport in decades and now all of
a sudden it is their keyconcern.
So I think that's always greatwhen women's sport gets a bit of
a lift.
I think the question ofcompetitive sport competitive
(18:01):
elite sport, I should say is notan easy one, and especially
when you start picking apartbiology as part of sex and sex
characteristics, and that initself is just a lot more
complex than the neat binary.
So I'm not a biologist.
I do understand that there'sbeen a lot of difficulties in
actually defining where thatneat line between male and
female they're looking foractually is, and I think it's
(18:23):
fair to say that science isreally the major voice on this
debate, or we should call it so,the guidelines that are being
looked at by these elite sportleagues, which represent a tiny
minority of sport and a tinyminority of the people who
engage in sport.
They tend to trickle down tolevels that aren't competitive
at all, even, and unfortunatelythey can result in exclusion
(18:45):
from even a local sports club.
So because a professional eliteleague might decide to restrict
trans women's participation.
Sometimes that can trickle downto all other clubs that are
engaging in the same sport, evenif it's not competitive at all,
and unfortunately that meansthat people are being booted out
of clubs and they aren't ableto even participate in sports.
(19:06):
So I'm personally I'm a hugefan of a lot of different
outdoor activities and sports,but, on a personal note, I've
just decided to stay clear ofanything that's competitive
because I really don't want toget caught up in that culture
war and unfortunately it's alsomade it really hard to engage in
team sports.
And I find it really ironic howthe focus in this debate is so
(19:27):
often on what's called women'ssafety, but it just neatly
ignores the fact that transpeople, and especially trans
women, are far more often thevictims of crime and violence,
and unfortunately we're notseeing a focus on that.
We are seeing positive thingsthat are happening as well, for
instance, around pride roundsand violence, and unfortunately
we're not seeing a focus on that.
We are seeing positive thingsthat are happening as well, for
instance, around pride roundsand matches.
They can be really important.
But I also feel like oftenthere's a strong focus on being
(19:51):
gay, lesbian and bisexual,bisexual inclusive and there's
really an engagement with transinclusion in that space.
So sometimes we see pridematches from leagues where trans
people can't even compete, sothere's no way we can take part
in the pride round now, justlistening to that just blows my
mind.
Karenza Louis-Smith (20:07):
When you think you know we're actually
excluding a part of ourpopulation from taking part in
sports.
I mean, it's just words.
Words fail me, absolutely failme, and I think, tara, you're
right.
That last point that you make.
You know that I'm saying thisas a woman that focuses often on
a woman's safety.
But trans people, andespecially trans women, are far
(20:28):
more often the victims thanperpetrators of crime, and
they're the victims in thisplace too, and this is the bit
that again blows my mind, mymind.
So right now, the australianhuman rights commission is doing
a national project mappingthreats to trans and gender
diverse human rights inAustralia.
So, mapping threats and askingfor living experience
(20:49):
submissions I think you justhave to look, don't you, at the
histories of hate crimes, thethings that have been happening.
What would you like peoplelistening to our conversation
today to understand about whatit's like to have your rights
debated by people who have noidea what your life is like?
And I know how this feels.
I mean, people that listen tothis podcast know I'm, you know,
openly gay.
(21:10):
I'm married to my wife.
It was pretty full on when wehad the kind of plebiscite the
debate on whether or not, youknow, gay people are allowed to
get married or not, and you knowit's like why does everybody
else have the right to choosewhat I can do with my life?
You know, and I went through awave of emotions.
I can only imagine that'smagnified a billion times when
the things I think that perhaps,as a trans person, you're
(21:33):
facing every day and you know,here we are.
As Emily said, it's on X,twitter, whatever we call it
these days and papers.
There's debate everywhere.
You know what, yeah, what doyou want people who are
listening today to know aboutwhat that's like for you?
Tara Laursen (21:47):
going back to the marriage equality plebiscite,
that was really hard, and, as alesbian myself, I found that
really challenging in all theways.
I do think that a bigdifference, though, is that when
we had that plebiscite, mostpeople in Australia at least,
knew someone who was directlyimpacted.
It wasn't just a matter ofanswering the question about
(22:07):
marriage equality.
It was also about how is thisgoing to influence Karenza, how
is this going to influence thisother person at work who I quite
like?
And research from EqualityAustralia shows that it's only
about one in 10 Australians whoreport that they personally know
a trans person well, so it canoften become a lot more abstract
for people, and there's so muchfear-mongering out there as
well.
(22:27):
The same research also showsthat the overwhelming majority
of Australians support equalrights and protections for trans
people.
I'm a bit concerned about theway it gets portrayed in media
as well, because having everyonesit together and agreeing is
really an exciting story to tell.
So often there's a bit of apull towards the drama, towards
(22:48):
the conflict.
Having mentioned some of thesestatistics, there might be
people out there who feel likethese questions aren't that
relevant to them in their life,and they might not know anyone
who's trans.
If you're one of those peoplewho say that they don't know
anyone who's trans, if you'reone of those people who say that
they don't know anyone who'strans, the only thing that means
is actually just that you don'tknow anyone who's trans, who's
chosen to share that fact aboutthemselves with you.
(23:12):
I do want to touch on the wholeconcept around coming out and
visibility, especiallyrecognizing that it is
transgender visibility For transpeople coming out can be very
different than it is transgenderday of visibility.
But trans people coming out canbe very different than it is
coming out based on yoursexuality.
For instance, me coming out asa lesbian is in my interest
because it shows people who I amin the world.
It shows people who I love.
(23:32):
It can be hard for me to beseen if I'm not out in that way,
whereas if I come out to peopleas a transgender person, it can
also make them see me as lessreal in my gender and that's a
really uncomfortable experienceto have.
It can also be seen as invitingdebate about my gender, which
is the last thing that I want.
Karenza Louis-Smith (23:51):
Yeah, it would be the last thing.
And it's interesting, isn't it?
I mean, I think about comingout like I'm in I'm 54, right.
So I came out a long, long timeago.
It was terrifying, it was right.
So I came out a long, long timeago.
It was terrifying, it wasabsolutely terrifying coming out
, and you know, I think theworld for someone like me today
has become a lot easier to comeout.
But I think what I'm hearingyou say is it's still as hard,
if not harder, for trans peopleto come out.
(24:12):
I think that's the there's athere's a really strong
difference here, the point thatyou're making it can be harder.
Tara Laursen (24:18):
but I think the challenge is also around that
ongoing experience of coming out.
I mean me coming out now isvery different, where I, in many
ways, I fly under the radar andI'm seen in the gender that I
want to be seen as.
So for me, coming out cansometimes question whether I am
in that gender at all to somepeople, whereas for someone
(24:38):
coming out early days intransition, it can be hard
because they're also askingpeople to see them in a
different way than they havepreviously, asking people to use
different pronouns, askingpeople to respect a different
way of identifying.
So I think it changes over yourlifetime.
But I think it's also importantto acknowledge that a lot of
trans people don't really feelthe need to be out, and I think
that's where visibility becomesreally difficult, because if
(25:01):
you're just going about yourlife and people are seeing you
in the gender that you identifyas, then you might not want to
draw any attention to that.
Yeah, that's right, even thoughthe question of visibility can
be a little bit delicate fortrans people.
I think one of the reasons Idecided that I really wanted to
do this podcast with you is Ithink it's so important to show
people that there are actuallytrans people everywhere.
(25:23):
We have a large organisation,of course.
There's people that we workwith, there's colleagues,
there's friends, there's familymembers.
Trans people are everywhere,and I think it's so important
that we actually share ourexperiences, because otherwise
we can often feel like we're theonly ones in the world.
Karenza Louis-Smith (25:39):
I think, tara, you hit a really pertinent
point, don't you?
Then how does trans visibilityincrease, you know?
And how do we haveconversations like we're having
today, actually, you know,having, I think we talk about,
you know, at Get Real?
It's all about frank andfearless conversations.
Let's have them, you know.
Let's put the real stuff out onthe table.
How do we do that?
There's a question I want toask you as well.
(26:03):
I want to talk about allyship,because I think that's one way
that things can actually help tochange too.
How do people do itrespectfully and meaningfully,
so not just saying, hey, I'm anally.
You know my cousins, sisters,best friends, uncles, nieces, oh
yeah, you know, we've hadcoffee together.
How can people understand, Ithink, what you're really
talking about here and helpactually build that visibility
(26:25):
and that awareness as well and Ithink awareness equals
visibility too that noteveryone's the same right.
We're not this homogenous grouplike.
We're a beautiful, richlydiverse race of people.
How do allies help this journey?
Tara Laursen (26:40):
I think a lot of it is really similar to being an
ally to other communities aswell, and I think it's really
focusing on the verb of allyship, so not making it about
someone's identity to be an ally, but more focused on what you
can do as an ally.
I think a key one is reallyaround listening and acting as
an amplifier in a way, like theway that Emily did before by
(27:01):
bringing in that article, soreferring to what people in
community say, referring totheir voices, rather than
speaking on behalf of.
Another key thing is reallyspeaking up and asking questions
so that we don't have to.
We all have that person we knowwho might say some dubious
things, and I think it can bereally helpful when other people
actually question some of thosethings rather than waiting for
(27:23):
the person who's directlyimpacted to do so.
There's also a lot of resourcesout there and we can add some
of these in the show notes aswell.
But of course, there'squestions around when you
interact with people who aretrans and maybe thinking about
some of the questions you mightwant to ask and question why you
want to ask those questions,especially when it comes to
asking stuff like what people'sreal name is, or if you can see
(27:44):
a childhood photo or some ofthese things that might be quite
sensitive for people.
Karenza Louis-Smith (27:49):
I think that's a naivety thing, isn't it
Like people are deeply curious,but I think you have to think
through the impact, sometimes,of what you say.
You know, don't you?
I think that's the message here.
Tara Laursen (28:01):
I think so.
Yeah, I think it's reallythinking about why.
Why is that an interestingquestion.
How would you feel if you werebeing asked that question?
Emily Webb (28:12):
Tari, you have referenced some reports and
studies on the lives oftransgender people and gender
diverse people, but there's alot more work to be done and you
know data is so important forunderstanding communities and
planning services.
At a very basic level.
It's how governments planservices.
Are institutions andgovernments listening to expert
advice about how to supporttrans and gender diverse people
(28:34):
in Australia?
I think, from my perspective,like of viewing how things are
spoken about, there seems to bea bit of trepidation or
unwillingness and then the onlyissues you hear are from the
politicians who want to get intothe culture, wars and want to
like, spark outrage, and it'svery, very toxic.
(28:55):
It's very damaging.
But yeah, I'm curious aboutthat because of your own
experience.
But also, you work inhealthcare.
You work in mental healthservices.
Tara Laursen (29:04):
Yeah.
So unfortunately we don't havevery good data at all and I
think one of the key things thatI do want to raise is that at
the time of the last census, thedecision was made to go against
the expert advice from the ABSand indeed there were no
questions around gender identityincluded, and I think that
points well towards that stigma,because apparently it's too
(29:24):
sensitive to ask these questions.
When you're asking people abouttheir personal life, their
religion, their income, youcan't ask them about their
gender.
Apparently that's too much, toofar.
So hopefully that'll change,because if we're not asking
these questions, we don'tactually know anything about the
community.
We do know a few things becausea lot of important research is
being done, but obviously if wedon't have that macro level look
(29:47):
at the community and theAustralian population then it's
much easier to dismiss thehealth and social needs of a
community that you refuse tocount or to make count.
Emily Webb (29:56):
And it allows also people who are critical of
transgender people, who are likejust basically discriminatory.
They can just throw anythingaround, like oh, there's an
explosion of, you know, childrengetting gender affirming
services.
There's no stats to back it up.
I'm always like where's yourstats, Where's your evidence?
Like that's always my point,and it just allows the
(30:19):
misinformation anddisinformation to fly.
Tara Laursen (30:23):
Yeah, and I think that's really interesting
parallels to be made.
I remember seeing some reallyinteresting comments based on
when we no longer determinedthat being left-handed was a
fault or an illness or whatever.
Then all of a sudden so manymore people are left-handed,
because we recognize thatactually some people are
left-handed and it just seems sobasic.
(30:44):
But I think the fact thatpeople have a lot more awareness
of French and that is actuallya thing that exists I think it's
pretty obvious that that'sgoing to mean that more people
are going to reflect on this,more people are going to ask
questions about it, and I think,unfortunately, we are seeing
some negative impacts from someof these debates.
I know, for instance, that oneof the insurers that works with
(31:06):
GPs have decided that if a GPengages in gender affirming care
, then they can lose theirindemnity insurance because
there might be a teeny, tinychance that someone might regret
something along the way.
And that's a huge impactbecause that impacts everyone's
access.
You can't really imagine aninsurer going out saying, oh,
you can't do this treatment forheart disease or you can't
(31:29):
screen for this other condition.
Yeah, it's really hard toimagine this happening in any
other context.
Karenza Louis-Smith (31:36):
So, just going off script, I like to go
rogue.
There are people listening tothis podcast who might be
sitting here questioning whothey are.
It's simply, as you know, whoam I and feeling that the gender
I was assigned at birth is notthe gender that I feel, and
you've talked a lot about yourexperiences and how that was
hard and difficult for you.
But what advice would you givesomeone who was 18, 19 or 20,
(31:58):
you know, in those ages when youstarted to begin to explore
what avenues and things and yousaid at the start you kind of
you know, I think your wordswere you blew it.
You know you didn't get to theright place If you were to sit
back.
You know, even if you werelucky enough to sit in a room
with your younger self, you know, all those years ago, what
advice would you share?
Tara Laursen (32:17):
That's such a good question.
I think the key one is reallyto be brave and have these frank
and fearless conversations.
I mean obviously, big caveat onthat Sometimes people are not
safe to have those.
So do reflect on the situationthat you're in and whether you
might need to address somesafety concerns first, but
assuming that people are in safeenvironments, then do please
(32:37):
have the conversations, talkabout how you feel, talk about
how you actually perceive gender, because gender is such a
complex thing and we like toimagine that it exists just as
this kind of static thing, butit changes hugely over time
changes of a culture, there's somany things that influence it.
So I think it's quite importantfor people to think about what
they actually think of when theythink of gender, because it can
(32:59):
be done in so many differentways.
And I think it's important thatpeople have a bit of a an
expansive approach to it andreally think about what works
for them, what doesn't work forthem, but also, by all means,
try to.
You know, try some things out.
You know life is for for tryingthings and figuring out what
sticks and what about for umfamily and friends and carers?
Karenza Louis-Smith (33:18):
you know family and friends and carers.
You know family and friends andcarers of someone who's sitting
in this space right nowthinking I want to reach out and
I want to have thisconversation like it's a really
big conversation.
What advice would you give tofamily, friends, carers, kin.
Tara Laursen (33:33):
Obviously, I think it's great to ask questions,
but I think it's also importantto recognise that if a person
might not fully know where theysit, that that can be extremely
confronting as well at the sametime.
So I think it's about findingthat right pace in asking the
questions and maybe tapping intosome of the resources that
exist.
Like I know, there's afantastic group called Transcend
that works with parents oftrans and gender diverse people
(33:56):
as well.
Emily Webb (33:58):
So, Tara, we ask this of all our guests guests
and it's about how you take careof your own mental health.
Tara Laursen (34:05):
Yeah, for me, it's absolutely about exercise.
I really need to move to staywell, and it's something I've
always known from quite an earlyage is that I just can't get
feelings out of my system if Idon't move.
That's really the way that Iprocess things.
I need to also be connected andto spend time with others and,
you know, have thoseconversations and adventures,
(34:26):
because I really rely on beingactive.
That's also why it irks me somuch when there's those
questions around sport andwhether we should be allowed to
do these things at all, becauseit is such a crucial part of
wellbeing.
Emily Webb (34:38):
Tara, this has been an amazing conversation and,
yeah, I just want to thank youso much for sharing your living
experience.
It's powerful and it's going tobe really helpful.
Tara Laursen (34:48):
Thank you, it's been such a delight.
ermha365 team (34:54):
We'd love you to share Get Real with your family
and friends.
You can also rate and review.
Get Real on your preferredpodcast listening player.
You've been listening to GetReal talking mental health and
disability, brought to you bythe team at Irma 365.
Get Real is produced andpresented by Emily Webb, with
Corenza Louis-Smith and specialguests.
(35:14):
Thanks for listening and we'llsee you next time.
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