April 12, 2025 • 36 mins
Get Unruly returns for a 5th Season with Cait Donovan, host of the top global podcast: "Fried, the Burnout Podcast." In this episode, Cait shares how she's harnessed resentment to uncover her true needs and boundaries, challenging societal expectations along the way.
Discover Cait's unconventional approach to life and business decisions, and learn how to use your own inner rebel to build a fulfilling life on your own terms. Listeners will walk away with a fresh perspective on the power of resentment and strategies for prioritizing self-care over people-pleasing.
About Cait:
Cait Donovan, host of "FRIED. The Burnout Podcast" and author of "The Bouncebackability Factor," merges Biobehavioral Sciences and Chinese Medicine to promote emotional intelligence and combat burnout. Her keynotes offer transformative insights and real-world solutions, making her a sought-after speaker for leading global organizations.
Get in touch with Cait:
https://caitdonovan.com
https://friedtheburnoutpodcast.com
https://linkedin.com/in/caitdonovanspeaks
https://instagram.com/caitdonovanspeaks
https://youtube.com/@caitdonovanspeaks
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kim Bolourtchi (00:00):
Welcome to the show. I am so excited to have
(00:03):
you today. I have an incredibleguest with me. I have Kate
Donovan. Kate is the host offried, the burnout podcast and
the author of bounce backability factor. She merges bio
behavioral sciences and Chinesemedicine to promote emotional
intelligence and combat burnout.
Her keynotes offertransformative insights and real
(00:25):
world solutions, making her asought after speaker for leading
global organizations. WelcomeKate. Thank
Cait Donovan (00:35):
you, Kim. I am so glad that I sat next to you on a
couch in Portland three
Kim Bolourtchi (00:41):
months ago that was so fun. And your video is
incredible, by the way. Thank
Cait Donovan (00:47):
you. Yeah, having a new speaking reel is feels
like such a flex. And also, thefirst day that I put it out was
torturous, like I was torturingmyself.
Kim Bolourtchi (00:59):
Did you feel really vulnerable?
Cait Donovan (01:00):
Oh, my God, but most vulnerable,
Kim Bolourtchi (01:03):
yeah, I feel like the more the more something
captures us authentically, themore exposed we feel. And so if
we don't feel really scared andreally vulnerable, we probably
didn't hit it. So I take it as areally good sign when I feel
really nervous about something.
Yeah,
Cait Donovan (01:21):
I'm gonna take that in immediately. I'm just
gonna absorb that thought andown it, because it was really
and I mean, I've been podcastingfor years. I speak in front of
1000s of people like you'd thinkthat this was not an
uncomfortable thing for me todo. So
Kim Bolourtchi (01:39):
I am really excited to talk to you about
getting unruly. And the funnything is, is that you and I
haven't talked a lot about, youknow, kind of your background or
mine before we decided to dothis. And you know, one of your
responses was the rules give youhives, which I freaking love. So
tell me a little bit about that.
Yeah,
Cait Donovan (01:59):
I think that there, it is possible that
there's some sort of undiagnosedneurodivergence that comes into
this. But anytime somebody triesto put me in a box, ask me what
my favorite something is, createa routine for me, or any of
those things, my inner rebelscreams with such a fiery,
(02:20):
fierce passion against it. Itdoesn't even matter if it's good
for me, if it would work. It'sjust the sheer idea of having to
put myself in a set of rulesmakes me so uncomfortable that
I've been pushing against them.
Forever?
Kim Bolourtchi (02:43):
Has it been since you were little? Yeah,
Cait Donovan (02:47):
like, except for, this is funny in another sense,
I was also a huge rule followerbecause of a people pleasing
tendency. So there were somethings that like I chose which
rules in my mind I was going tofollow, because they were the
ones that I deemed to be themost important, which meant that
(03:09):
I also had, and this was part ofmy burnout story, a huge sense
of moral superiority around therules that I chose to follow,
because if I'm choosing tofollow them, then you're not a
good enough person if you're notalso doing it, and I'm not a
good enough person unless I'mdoing it all the time and never
making a mistake ever. Like,what's
Kim Bolourtchi (03:28):
the rule that you felt like you you followed
for yourself? So one of the
Cait Donovan (03:33):
things that this is a really silly example, so
it's going to make some peoplelaugh. I will never not put the
grocery cart back in the grocerycart little section. No matter
what store I'm in, I'm neverleaving it in the parking lot.
I'm not also going to just throwit in there. I'm going to tuck
(03:55):
it into another grocery cart ofthe same shape and size, because
that's what you're supposed todo.
Kim Bolourtchi (04:01):
I support that.
I
Cait Donovan (04:03):
mean, listen, I have all the reasons to support
it, but the fact that I'm soparticular about it is based on
stuff that I learned from myparents. Of like, this is, this
is considerate, and you're kindof, like, they never said this,
but like, you're not a goodperson if you don't do this. And
I read a post on I might havebeen Facebook, I don't know,
(04:26):
whatever it was online somewherea couple of years ago where
someone was like, Listen, I havethree kids in the car. I am
trying to get my groceries done.
I'm not leaving my children inthe car by themselves for two
minutes while I walk down to theother end of the parking lot to
put this card away. I'm sorrythat that makes you
uncomfortable, but these are mychildren, and I was like, my
initial reaction, if I'm totallyhonest, was brutal. It was
Kim Bolourtchi (04:52):
probably you could do it,
Cait Donovan (04:54):
lock your damn doors and walk like your kids
will be fine. Mm. For 120seconds, but I'm not a mother,
Kim Bolourtchi (05:05):
yes, and it's such an interesting example that
you choose because, like, Ioften feel like, if you can't
put a card back, what does itsay about society and humanity?
Right? It's one of those thingsthat connects us, and it's a
consideration thing. So, and I'ma complete like, I hate the
(05:26):
rules, right? I'm like you whereyou know, just the mere
suggestion of them makes me notwant to do them. And so I get
it. But also, there are certainones that it's like, Well, why
would you not put the grocerycart back, because if nobody put
the grocery cart back, it wouldbe absolute chaos. Yeah?
Cait Donovan (05:46):
And the the fight back from other people would be
there's literally someone that'spaid to go out and collect them,
Kim Bolourtchi (05:53):
yeah? And I think you could make that
argument about everything,right? There's somebody paid to
do everything, but that doesn'texcuse us from being a decent
freaking human being,
Cait Donovan (06:02):
right? But what makes a decent freaking human
being?
Kim Bolourtchi (06:05):
Yeah, and that's that's our my idea correct, our
own filter. We decide
Cait Donovan (06:11):
exactly. And I think this is the thing that
that I discovered duringburnout, was that I had a lot of
these consideration things, andthe benefit of them was that I
was getting praise and thanked alot in my life, because I was,
you know, making sure old womenhad seats on busses. And I was,
you know, I was doing all thethings that a human is supposed
to do, to be considerate, whichI won't stop doing. But what it
(06:32):
also did to me personally was itallowed me to engage in non stop
self abandonment and selfneglect, because if I'm always
paying attention to what is,what it means to be a good
person for everyone else, and myenergy and attention is outward
toward everybody that might needanything around me at every
given moment in my life, then Ihave no idea what my body needs,
(06:57):
what my body wants, what mydesires are, what My preferences
are, I have no clue, because I'mnot present. I'm not I'm not
there. I'm busy making sure,giving you the judgy eye because
you're not putting your cardaway. I was about to get real
Boston accent right there, and Ihope, but I was, I was getting
riled up, and it was about
Kim Bolourtchi (07:16):
I love and I think that, I think a lot of
people feel that way, and Ithink it's hard, especially as
society sort of feels like it'sfalling apart, that there's this
part of us that wants to step upwhere we can and do what we can
and and step in where we can.
And I think, to your point,there are a lot of people really
not taking care of themselves inthe process, right? And so, you
(07:37):
know, it's, it's a I'm puttingother people first, which it's
not bad to consider otherpeople, as you said, but when it
comes at the expense of yourmental health, physical health,
that's where it becomesproblematic, is that what I hear
you saying, I think
Cait Donovan (07:54):
it becomes problematic there, and I think
it becomes problematic when youare so strict about it that you
are judging people harshly whenthey're not following the rules
that you're following, because Idon't think that that's a useful
energy to put out into theworld. So if I agree with I'm
doing everything that I can dowhile still paying attention to
(08:14):
my body, and it is superimportant to me to put the
grocery card away, then I can goand put the grocery card away,
and somebody else thinks it'sreally important to do something
else that I'm not seeing ordoing, because that's not part
of my filter for for whateverreason, right? For whatever
reason. So I have to trust thatthis person that didn't put
their card away might be likethe best mother on the planet
(08:40):
and is raising a child that isthoughtful and empathetic and
you know, like, I don't knowwhat good they're adding to the
world, but if I'm standingaround judging people for not
doing the things I think thatthey should do, that's
exhausting me, neglecting me andgiving me an attitude
Kim Bolourtchi (09:01):
and actually not helping the problem at all, not
Cait Donovan (09:04):
helping the problem at all. Right?
Kim Bolourtchi (09:07):
I love that. And I guarantee you there are people
listening, going, Oh, my God, Ido that.
Cait Donovan (09:12):
Yeah, totally. And that's right. Like, I also, this
is another funny one, like, parkin the damn lines I don't
understand when people areparked. Like, there was a guy,
yeah, yesterday I went toNordstrom Rack, and there's I
parked in the line where thewalkway is in between two, like,
rows of parking spaces, andthere was a truck parked next to
(09:34):
me, and he pulled back furtherthan he needed to from the front
of the parking space, so his theback of his truck was in the
walkway. It's like, I'm ablebodied, I can walk around that.
But my initial reaction was tobe furious at this guy, because
somebody in a wheelchair or oncrutches or with some other
mobility issue might need to getaround your damn big truck, and
(09:55):
you could have pulled forwardsix more inches, and it would
have been fine. But what. Gooddoes it do for me to now be
furious at a person who is notin their car? It was, I can't
even, I could. I can't evenKaren him. I, you know, I can't
even do anything like there's, Ihave no power here,
Kim Bolourtchi (10:19):
right? So, so how do you walk yourself back
Cait Donovan (10:24):
exactly by saying those things in my head. I don't
know if you've seen there's afourth grade teacher on
Instagram. Her name is MissBrazil, and she did this video
that went viral about firstthoughts, second thoughts and
and on. When she said, you knowyou are not like just your first
thoughts, the person you aregoes beyond your first thoughts,
(10:45):
your first reactions, yourinitial emotions, your job, as
you grow and learn and changeand become an adult and learn
how to interact with the worldis to allow yourself the grace
of having a second thought andmaybe a third and a fourth until
you get to the one that's theway that you want to act in the
Kim Bolourtchi (11:02):
world. Love that.
Cait Donovan (11:06):
So I do that.
That's my my first I admitted myfirst thought and my first
emotional reaction to it, right?
And I said, Well, what's mysecond thought? This person
backed up all the way into theparking spot, possibly because
he knows he has a big truck anddidn't want to be sticking out
so that people couldn't drivedown the row, and didn't realize
that those six inches made thatmuch of a difference. My next
(11:30):
thought might be, maybe thisperson is running in to return
something, and is literallygoing to be gone for 90 seconds,
and they will be out of herebefore anything could even and
maybe the person in thewheelchair that happens to come
along at just the quote, unquotewrong time understands that they
(11:50):
are strong enough to move aroundthis obstacle. And I'm making it
a problem, and they are not. I'mdeciding for them that this is a
problem, like, maybe they'refine.
Kim Bolourtchi (12:04):
I love it. It's a good process to think through.
Yeah, so when you think aboutrules that you've strategically
broken, right in addition to theones that you're recognizing
impacted you, what are some thatyou've chosen to break along the
way, that people were like, Thisis how you have to do the thing
(12:25):
to get where you want to go. Andyou were like, No, thanks.
Cait Donovan (12:29):
Yeah. I think the first real big one was I started
a pre med program at BostonUniversity on a full academic
scholarship, or a 95% academicscholarship, pretty much full.
And for a kid from the ghetto,this was a very big deal, and my
parents were never going to havethe money to send me to school,
so it was like, you have thisopportunity, you have to take
(12:51):
it. And a year and a half in, Irealized it was not the right
path for me. Chose another path.
Finished my second semester ofmy sophomore year, and dropped
out, and the world was a flame.
Kim Bolourtchi (13:07):
I bet it was, I bet it was, I bet, I bet people
told you you'd lost your mind,you weren't going to make it.
You were throwing away thebiggest opportunity of your
life. And on and on and onright.
Cait Donovan (13:21):
And also, I got told, I don't know why you're
now choosing Chinese medicine.
You'll never make any moneydoing that.
Kim Bolourtchi (13:30):
Yep, and,
Cait Donovan (13:33):
and worked out just fine, really. I mean, it
worked out. I love Chinesemedicine with a passion running
it as a business, and burnt meout along the way. But that was
not Chinese medicine's fault.
That was my own internal stuffthat was driving me while I was
in school for Chinese medicine.
(13:55):
It's a four year master'sprogram. Most people don't
realize that we actually go toschool for an extended period of
time. I know you know, but mostpeople don't know. So it's a
four year master's program.
Three years in, I decided totake a semester off. I had this
urge to go to Argentina. I wentby myself, bought a ticket with
quarters. I saved up frombartending, flew there, got
there, the first person I metwas the man that would
(14:17):
eventually become my husband. Iwas only gone for a couple of
months. Of months. I was withhim in the same city for just
six weeks. I came back from thissemester long journey through
South America, came back to SanDiego, where I was doing my
degree, and told everybody I'mengaged. And they were like,
you don't even know this person.
What is wrong with you? And Iwas like, I don't know. I think
(14:43):
it's okay. 20 years later, herewe are. We're all right. So
Kim Bolourtchi (14:50):
I mean, you a track record of really trusting
yourself and what you know to betrue about about you and your
life, even when. And peopledon't see it at all. And even
when the rules right the way wedo things within quotation
marks, for those people who arejust listening to audio, say,
you know, here's the path. Yousaid, No, thank you. I'm going
(15:13):
to do it my way, and it's workedout really beautifully for you,
Cait Donovan (15:17):
really beautiful in some ways, and really tough
in others. You know, another oneof the big moves was this person
that I met was not American, andhe had fully paid for apartment
in Warsaw. He's polish, and hehad an apartment that his
parents bought him to go tocollege in. So we decided to
start off our lives there. Iwanted to learn Polish and also
(15:38):
having incredible student loansto pay off and not having rent
to pay sounded really attractiveto both of us. So that was the
choice we made. And my friendswere like, you're going to move
where they people didn't evenknow what language they spoke.
People, I mean, everyone wasvery they're like, What are you
going to do there? Apparently,what I'm going to do is build an
acupuncture empire. But hold ona second for that, like we'll
(16:01):
get there. Yeah, I didn't know.
I didn't know if I could legallypractice acupuncture in Poland.
I didn't know what was going on.
So that was a huge risk, butmade the sense at the time for
all sorts of different reasons.
So cool, that job ended up beingthe beginning of my burnout, but
(16:21):
it was the environment. Polandis not my place. Love it for
lots of reasons, not my place,not where I feel most
comfortable. I had these underunderpinnings of unworthiness
that I took with me. So I wasover giving to every single
patient. I was like a lifecoach, a therapist, a
(16:42):
nutritionist, you know. I wasdoing everything for everyone
and not charging for it. I wasan inexperienced business owner,
which meant that I didn'tunderstand that I should have
hired a receptionist. A longtime ago, I was doing everything
by myself, and at the time I wasI was 27 you know, and I was
extremely busy, and I had athree month waiting list, and I
(17:03):
was getting invited to, like,morning talk shows on TV. And it
was all of this success that Ididn't know how to manage. And
thinking about having anassistant or receptionist, the
only thing I could consider washow much less money I'd have at
the end of the month if I didthat, not understanding that if
I paid them, I could probablymake more than enough to cover
their salary and then some,because so much of my time would
(17:25):
be freed up, like there was justa lot of things going on all at
the same time that led me toburnout. So you could say my
choices, my brave, bold choices,drove me to the ground. Do
Kim Bolourtchi (17:42):
you regret them?
No,
Cait Donovan (17:46):
no, thank God. I burnt out when I did. I burnt
out young, 2829 I have built anincredible business off of that
experience. I get to useeverything that I learned in
Chinese medicine school, and Iwent back and got another degree
in bio behavioral health, I getto do all the things that I love
(18:13):
in a business that couldn't haveeven existed when I finished
school. We didn't there were,like, barely iPhones when I
finished acupuncture school.
Kim Bolourtchi (18:22):
This is a hard question, but do you think that
because you were sort of aheadof, ahead of where society said
we can be right, you were sortof ahead of the space where the
rules ever contemplated. Youwere existing in this place
where the boxes didn't conceiveright? You're just sort of out
there doing this thing, and atthe same time, this feeling of
(18:44):
needing to prove that youdeserved to be there at every
turn, that that contributed tothe difficulty that you faced on
this journey. 100%
Cait Donovan (18:56):
it's still, you know, the the speaking world,
for those of you who don't know,is the wild wild west. You can
pay to speak, or you can getpaid hundreds of 1000s of
dollars to speak, and everythingfrom paying to getting paid
hundreds of 1000s of dollars isreasonable in this world.
(19:16):
There's no real rules. Sochanging your prices and
accepting payment and gettingpaid big numbers for a day,
which really is like two monthsof work, if we're honest, but
all of that I had to workthrough again when I started
this business, because it'shard, but if you don't take the
(19:39):
big numbers, you can't survivein this business. So it's like
you have to learn how to dothat, but thinking that what I
was offering was good enough toget that still something that I
have to like, I have to sit downwith myself sometimes and have
first thoughts and secondthoughts and third thoughts to
get through it, even though I.
So I am very well aware that onetalk in one company could save a
(20:03):
company literally millions ofdollars. So their fee, my fee
for that is basically nothing incomparison, and yet I still have
to do I deserve this space. Do Iknow enough to speak up? What
did I decide I needed to learnagain. The other day, somebody
said something about Chinesemedicine, and I couldn't
(20:24):
remember exactly what the like,what the rule was about it,
because I finished school, youknow, almost 20 years ago, and I
remember thinking, Oh, my God, Ihave to go back and do more
courses. Instead of being like,just look it up. Remind yourself
and get back into yourknowledge. Like, I always feel
like there's more to learn, moreto put underneath my name, to
(20:45):
say, no, no, seriously, I canlike, I'm good enough for this.
I'm still doing that to not, notto the degree that I was doing
it before, but it's still partof my story, for sure. Yeah,
Kim Bolourtchi (20:58):
I still appreciate you sharing that, and
I think it's it's something thatwe do not talk about enough,
because I think that everysingle one of us, myself
included, in the space of livingoutside the boundaries like the
one thing that the rules give usis security, right rules, people
who follow the rules and do thethings they've been told to do
and follow the path they've beengiven, they know exactly what's
(21:20):
coming, and they might have thisyearning in their heart and
their their soul for more, andthey might know they're capable
of more, and they might knowthis isn't really what they're
supposed to be doing. But ifthey don't ever challenge it,
and they stay there, they'regoing to live a life that's
status quo, right? It'spredictable, it's been
determined, it's been livedbefore and and so there's that.
But when you challenge, you knowwhat's been done before, and you
(21:44):
challenge, and you go to a spacethat's just for you and and you
do it in a way that's just foryou, and you have people along
the way going, what are youdoing? Are you out of your mind?
I mean, if I had a dime forevery time someone told me that,
I'd like, literally, you know,probably a kid wouldn't. I
wouldn't have paid for collegefor one of my kids, but, but
it's, it's really hard, and ofcourse, with it comes this idea
of, do I know enough? Am I goodenough? Do I deserve to be here?
(22:09):
Does anybody actually want tohear what I want to say? Like
that dialog, I think, is veryreal, in large part because
we're doing it in a space thathasn't been done before. And so
for people who are are braveenough right to go here, like I
want them to know this is realand you're not freaking alone,
because every one of us, nomatter what it looks like, you
(22:31):
know, this is something I sitdown with, with myself. You
know, you sit down you've got,you know, this incredible
career, a podcast that's one ofthe top burnout podcast, it's
like, way up there, isn't it,
Cait Donovan (22:44):
right? Yeah, we're top 1% globally. And in the
burnout podcast, I think we'renumber two in the world. Okay,
so
Kim Bolourtchi (22:50):
number two burnout podcast in the world?
Yeah. And you know, you're stillhaving these conversations with
yourself. So so like, thank youso much for for the candor on
that. And also I really hopepeople can hear this and take
heart that this is sort of theprice we pay for doing it this
way. But I wouldn't have it anyother way,
Cait Donovan (23:08):
and me either, right? Like, either
Kim Bolourtchi (23:12):
because, you know, yeah, it's it's tricky and
it's painful, and neither of usis going to sit here and say,
Oh, it's unicorns and rainbowsand whatever, like, yeah, it's
messy, messy, messy, but it'sfreaking amazing when you live
life on your terms.
Cait Donovan (23:26):
And the constraint that I would feel living by the
normal rules is moreuncomfortable to me than the
discomfort of thisvulnerability. Yes, so if there
are people and there are peoplethat are happier in the rules
and more content within therules, and maybe they have
little dreams sometimes, butthey're like, this is actually
(23:48):
more like, I'm almost jealous ofthat sometimes. How nice would
it be to just live an ordinarylife in the rules? Like that
must be comforting on somelevel, but it's not actually
comforting for me, and that'swhat I have to remind myself,
what I'm like maybe because, youknow, if you're not really an
entrepreneur of every sixmonths, you're not like, Oh my
(24:09):
God, should I get a job? And soevery time I look, because I
look, I look for acupuncturejobs, I look at organizational
psychology, jobs like workculture. I look at all sorts of
jobs, and every time I look, Ithink, Oh, my God, I can't do
that. No, I can't. I'm not evenemployable, because you're going
(24:30):
to tell me to do something acertain way, and I'm going to be
like I thought that. No, that'swrong. No,
Kim Bolourtchi (24:37):
I love that. I feel that though. I think it's
hilarious that you look forjobs,
Cait Donovan (24:42):
yeah, every six months. So
Kim Bolourtchi (24:45):
I've heard you say that resentment is a
superpower. And I am so curiousabout this, because I've always
thought that resentment wasreally bad. Both
Cait Donovan (24:56):
people do. It's my favorite emotion. What.
Resentment will teach you everysingle time two things that were
critical for me in my burnoutrecovery journey, and I have
found are critical for 1000s ofpeople during their burnout
recovery journey, resentmentwill teach you every single
place that your boundaries arebeing crossed most of the time
(25:18):
by you, but that's you know,different conversation. Most
people are taught like, oh, setboundaries. Say no, but we're
not actually taught to figureout where those boundaries are
really necessary. So we startmaking it up, and then we don't
hold them, because we're notsure if we really mean it and it
doesn't. It all just doesn'tmake a lot of sense. Because to
(25:40):
me, we're missing the firststep. If we look toward
resentment and say, Oh, theseare all the places that I
actually don't want to spendenergy the way that I'm spending
it, because that's whatresentment means. I'm giving
more here than I actually wantto give. My generosity is being
abused or underappreciated. Oneof the two, if you look at those
(26:01):
areas and you find them, you cansay, Oh, here's where I don't
want to actually spend energy.
The trick is, then you have tobe honest with yourself about
the fact that you don't actuallywant to spend energy there, even
though you think it makes you agood person. So you have to let
go of good person syndrome. Youhave to remove yourself from
this. Need to be constantly themost considerate and the most
everything, you have to be ableto take those things away and
(26:24):
say, Okay, here's all the placeswhere I actually need different
boundaries. Most of those willmean you just not overstepping
and over giving and overmeddling and doing all the extra
things. Sometimes it meanshaving a conversation with
another person. So that'sresentment teaches you thing.
Number one is boundaries. Theother thing that it teaches you,
which is super sneaky, and youreally have to be willing to dig
(26:46):
for it, is resentment will showyou every single place in your
life that you have chosen selfneglect and the type of self
care that your body is actuallycraving. An example, was doing
dishes the other day, and myhusband was laying on the couch,
(27:09):
and it was a Monday night, whichmeans Tuesday morning the
housekeepers come. Very lucky. Iknow that this is a privilege,
very lucky to have housekeeperscome on Tuesday mornings and
straighten us out for a couplehours, the dishes I don't
actually need to do. But in mymind, I've created a rule that I
can't rest today, because Idon't feel like that every day,
(27:31):
but right now today, I feel likethese dishes need to be done, so
I'm doing them, and I'm lookingat my husband, and I'm getting a
little resentful that I'mstanding here doing the dishes
and he's not. And then I said,Oh, look, this is a resentment.
Yay, yay. That means I canfigure something out. Because I
love resentment now, every timeit pops up, I'm joyful. I say,
Okay, well, what's actuallygoing on here? Am I actually
(27:53):
upset that he's not doing thedishes? Because is that really
what's going on? And what Inoticed underneath Dig, dig,
dig, was that I wasn't upsetthat he wasn't doing the dishes.
I was resentful and envious thathe was allowing himself to lie
down when I had decided therewas more work to be done that
(28:14):
day. I was not allowing myselfto rest and lie down, even
though that's what I was clearlycraving,
Kim Bolourtchi (28:28):
interesting. So it was absolutely about you 110%
I love that, and actually itmakes a lot of sense, because I
think a lot of times when wefeel it's, it's really always
about, it's really always aboutus, right? And what we're
thinking, it's not about theperson or the thing. It's, it's
(28:52):
about how we're narcissist,
Cait Donovan (28:55):
right? Yeah, there are people that take advantage,
yeah. So it's, I want to there'sa caveat in here. Okay? If
you're being bullied, yeah,you're living with a narcissist,
then the rules shift a littlebit, okay? Because it might be
about their behavior, yep, ifyou're being gaslit, it's about
(29:17):
their behavior. When you don'tnotice things along the way.
That's how you end up trapped inthose situations, because you
accepted and accepted and youlet the resentment build and you
accept it, and the resentmentbuilt and you accept it, and the
resentment built and you acceptit, and the resentment build
until now it's exploding witheverywhere and everything that
(29:39):
happens and every action they door don't do, and you don't
understand why you feel so wild.
Well, it's been 12 years ofbeing gas lit by a narcissist.
That's not really your fault,and I would say 85% of the time
it's about your own
Kim Bolourtchi (29:59):
shit. Yeah, so did you stop doing the dishes I
Cait Donovan (30:03):
did? I literally turned the water off and laid
down.
Kim Bolourtchi (30:09):
I think a lot of people have those rules about
this has to happen before I'mallowed to have x this has to
happen before I'm allowed to behappy. This has to happen before
I'm allowed to rest. We have toearn our satisfaction. We have
to earn our ability to be happywhen, in fact, we're entitled to
it in every moment, at everysecond, no matter what
Cait Donovan (30:26):
time and where we truly want it. Resentment will
tell us, I love that, right?
Because a lot of times peoplethat end up burnt out, or people
that are or have a lot ofresentment, one of the big
reasons is what I said in thebeginning, like I was so focused
on on the outward things thatneeded to be done that I didn't
know what my own wants, needs,desires and prefers. Were those
(30:46):
to me, always come in a packageof four wants, needs, desires
and preferences. They belongtogether in my world. And if you
don't know what they are, youcan read every self help book in
the world, and you're nevergoing to feel good in your life
because you don't know what youactually want, right? Because
(31:07):
you have taught, been taughtmost of the time to not know
that it's also not your faultthat you're not tuned into it.
You learned that also right, butyou find it. You have to allow
the resentment to come up, andyou have to be willing to look
at it, because it will tell youevery single time this is
something you want. This issomething you desire. Your
(31:30):
preference is Mexican food.
Today you're annoyed thatsomebody just chose Italian your
preference was something elsethat you did not allow yourself
to point out until somebody elsesaid something, and then it's
sitting right here. It bubblesup and sits right here, and you
don't say anything, and then yougo eat the Italian but you
really want some guac.
Kim Bolourtchi (31:54):
I'm not going to think about resentment the same
way after this conversation.
Cait Donovan (31:58):
It's the best.
It's also how I do my pricing inmy business, really, yeah. The
question that comes up for meis, is the exchange that I'm
saying yes to right now going toallow me to arrive in my full
generosity and give everythingthat I like to give, or is it
going to make me feel resentful?
(32:22):
If it's going to make me feelresentful, it's not enough.
Kim Bolourtchi (32:28):
So this is really, this is really your
guide. Yeah,
Cait Donovan (32:32):
100% Wow. It took me months to get to it. I was
doing a proprioceptive writingtechnique, and I found I kept
ending up on resentment. And Iwas like, What the heck is going
on here? And now I've seen itpop up a little times. I have
the resentment journal is, iscopy written to me, but I have
seen it pop up now in a coupledifferent places since I started
(32:53):
talking about it. And I've seenit, you know, here and there
start to, like, drip aroundafter four or five years of
talking about it almost nonstop, and I'm thrilled that it's
starting to, like, make its wayto people, because I really
think that allowing people areally sure fire way to
(33:13):
understand what they trulydesire, yeah, gives people the
opportunity to actually get itinstead of making a Vision Board
of things you think you want maynot be related to anything well.
And
Kim Bolourtchi (33:25):
I mean, I think, I think you've hit on something
right? Because what we think wewant and what we really want
sometimes are reallydisconnected by what we've been
told we're allowed to have. Andso I ask leaders all the time
what they want, and they'llanswer me, and I'm like, Are you
sure like? And then, you know,it'll come out many, many layers
(33:45):
after we've been digging intoclarity, they want something
completely different, orsomething that's much bigger,
much more exciting, but theyjust don't think they're allowed
to have it, or that it's evenpossible. So to your point, you
know, there's so muchconditioning around staying
small, staying safe, making surewe take care of our people and
don't disappoint anyone in thisjourney. And we're so much
(34:08):
smaller than we can be, yeah,right? If people have a tool
that helps them, you know, do Ifeel resentful when I think
about this for the rest of mylife? Do I think? You know, do I
feel resentful when I thinkabout this as the path for my
company, or for myself or for myteam. I love that there is
something tangible people can doin addition to the what do I
want. You know, what pisses meoff? Like, ah, what do I not
(34:33):
want?
Cait Donovan (34:34):
What's really getting under my skin? This is
also, in addition to choosing mypricing, it's also how I figure
out who I'm going to hire next,because I start feeling
resentful about doing a taskthat is not my zone of genius,
that that's an easy gift, andsomebody else really wants to do
that job.
Kim Bolourtchi (34:52):
Yeah? Oh, 100% there's somebody that loves that
job,
Cait Donovan (34:56):
yeah, let them do it, and it's so it can be easy
to. Say, right? I understandthat there's costs involved.
Last year, at the end of theyear, with the investment that I
made for the speaker reel, letme tell you, my accountant was
like, you shouldn't have paidany of the taxes that you paid
this year, because it's allcoming back, because you didn't
make enough money. And I didn'tmake enough money because I paid
(35:18):
all the people to do the thingsI didn't want to do. Which means
that as we continue to grow, Iget to still focus on the things
that are bringing me more moneyand bringing me more joy and
bringing me more peace, and allof the other things are going to
be taken care of. It's amomentary investment that puts
things sort of like I had to, Ihad to take a dive down so I
could take a dive up.
Kim Bolourtchi (35:39):
Yes, I subscribe to that 100% I think the more
we're in our zone of genius andwe're doing the things that
light us up, that's just for me,it's a it's a hell yes, I'm lit
or it's a no. And if it's a no,there's somebody who's going to
be lit up by the thing that's ano. So I agree. Tell, tell my
listeners how they can find you,connect with you, if they want
(36:01):
to have you speak. You are soamazing. Oh, thanks.
Cait Donovan (36:04):
This is so fun.
The best place is to go to pridethe burnout podcast, because
then you can see all of thethings and all of the topics and
all of the people and all of themagic. And otherwise, I really
recommend that people connect onLinkedIn. My name is Kate
Donovan, C, A, it, and everybodyknows how to spell Donovan. So
Kim Bolourtchi (36:21):
amazing. I cannot thank you enough for
taking the time to be with metoday. It was such a pleasure
chatting with you same.
Cait Donovan (36:27):
Thanks for having me. Of course, you.
Welcome to the show. I am so excited to have
(00:03):
you today. I have an incredibleguest with me. I have Kate
Donovan. Kate is the host offried, the burnout podcast and
the author of bounce backability factor. She merges bio
behavioral sciences and Chinesemedicine to promote emotional
intelligence and combat burnout.
Her keynotes offertransformative insights and real
(00:25):
world solutions, making her asought after speaker for leading
global organizations. WelcomeKate. Thank
Cait Donovan (00:35):
you, Kim. I am so glad that I sat next to you on a
couch in Portland three
Kim Bolourtchi (00:41):
months ago that was so fun. And your video is
incredible, by the way. Thank
Cait Donovan (00:47):
you. Yeah, having a new speaking reel is feels
like such a flex. And also, thefirst day that I put it out was
torturous, like I was torturingmyself.
Kim Bolourtchi (00:59):
Did you feel really vulnerable?
Cait Donovan (01:00):
Oh, my God, but most vulnerable,
Kim Bolourtchi (01:03):
yeah, I feel like the more the more something
captures us authentically, themore exposed we feel. And so if
we don't feel really scared andreally vulnerable, we probably
didn't hit it. So I take it as areally good sign when I feel
really nervous about something.
Yeah,
Cait Donovan (01:21):
I'm gonna take that in immediately. I'm just
gonna absorb that thought andown it, because it was really
and I mean, I've been podcastingfor years. I speak in front of
1000s of people like you'd thinkthat this was not an
uncomfortable thing for me todo. So
Kim Bolourtchi (01:39):
I am really excited to talk to you about
getting unruly. And the funnything is, is that you and I
haven't talked a lot about, youknow, kind of your background or
mine before we decided to dothis. And you know, one of your
responses was the rules give youhives, which I freaking love. So
tell me a little bit about that.
Yeah,
Cait Donovan (01:59):
I think that there, it is possible that
there's some sort of undiagnosedneurodivergence that comes into
this. But anytime somebody triesto put me in a box, ask me what
my favorite something is, createa routine for me, or any of
those things, my inner rebelscreams with such a fiery,
(02:20):
fierce passion against it. Itdoesn't even matter if it's good
for me, if it would work. It'sjust the sheer idea of having to
put myself in a set of rulesmakes me so uncomfortable that
I've been pushing against them.
Forever?
Kim Bolourtchi (02:43):
Has it been since you were little? Yeah,
Cait Donovan (02:47):
like, except for, this is funny in another sense,
I was also a huge rule followerbecause of a people pleasing
tendency. So there were somethings that like I chose which
rules in my mind I was going tofollow, because they were the
ones that I deemed to be themost important, which meant that
(03:09):
I also had, and this was part ofmy burnout story, a huge sense
of moral superiority around therules that I chose to follow,
because if I'm choosing tofollow them, then you're not a
good enough person if you're notalso doing it, and I'm not a
good enough person unless I'mdoing it all the time and never
making a mistake ever. Like,what's
Kim Bolourtchi (03:28):
the rule that you felt like you you followed
for yourself? So one of the
Cait Donovan (03:33):
things that this is a really silly example, so
it's going to make some peoplelaugh. I will never not put the
grocery cart back in the grocerycart little section. No matter
what store I'm in, I'm neverleaving it in the parking lot.
I'm not also going to just throwit in there. I'm going to tuck
(03:55):
it into another grocery cart ofthe same shape and size, because
that's what you're supposed todo.
Kim Bolourtchi (04:01):
I support that.
I
Cait Donovan (04:03):
mean, listen, I have all the reasons to support
it, but the fact that I'm soparticular about it is based on
stuff that I learned from myparents. Of like, this is, this
is considerate, and you're kindof, like, they never said this,
but like, you're not a goodperson if you don't do this. And
I read a post on I might havebeen Facebook, I don't know,
(04:26):
whatever it was online somewherea couple of years ago where
someone was like, Listen, I havethree kids in the car. I am
trying to get my groceries done.
I'm not leaving my children inthe car by themselves for two
minutes while I walk down to theother end of the parking lot to
put this card away. I'm sorrythat that makes you
uncomfortable, but these are mychildren, and I was like, my
initial reaction, if I'm totallyhonest, was brutal. It was
Kim Bolourtchi (04:52):
probably you could do it,
Cait Donovan (04:54):
lock your damn doors and walk like your kids
will be fine. Mm. For 120seconds, but I'm not a mother,
Kim Bolourtchi (05:05):
yes, and it's such an interesting example that
you choose because, like, Ioften feel like, if you can't
put a card back, what does itsay about society and humanity?
Right? It's one of those thingsthat connects us, and it's a
consideration thing. So, and I'ma complete like, I hate the
(05:26):
rules, right? I'm like you whereyou know, just the mere
suggestion of them makes me notwant to do them. And so I get
it. But also, there are certainones that it's like, Well, why
would you not put the grocerycart back, because if nobody put
the grocery cart back, it wouldbe absolute chaos. Yeah?
Cait Donovan (05:46):
And the the fight back from other people would be
there's literally someone that'spaid to go out and collect them,
Kim Bolourtchi (05:53):
yeah? And I think you could make that
argument about everything,right? There's somebody paid to
do everything, but that doesn'texcuse us from being a decent
freaking human being,
Cait Donovan (06:02):
right? But what makes a decent freaking human
being?
Kim Bolourtchi (06:05):
Yeah, and that's that's our my idea correct, our
own filter. We decide
Cait Donovan (06:11):
exactly. And I think this is the thing that
that I discovered duringburnout, was that I had a lot of
these consideration things, andthe benefit of them was that I
was getting praise and thanked alot in my life, because I was,
you know, making sure old womenhad seats on busses. And I was,
you know, I was doing all thethings that a human is supposed
to do, to be considerate, whichI won't stop doing. But what it
(06:32):
also did to me personally was itallowed me to engage in non stop
self abandonment and selfneglect, because if I'm always
paying attention to what is,what it means to be a good
person for everyone else, and myenergy and attention is outward
toward everybody that might needanything around me at every
given moment in my life, then Ihave no idea what my body needs,
(06:57):
what my body wants, what mydesires are, what My preferences
are, I have no clue, because I'mnot present. I'm not I'm not
there. I'm busy making sure,giving you the judgy eye because
you're not putting your cardaway. I was about to get real
Boston accent right there, and Ihope, but I was, I was getting
riled up, and it was about
Kim Bolourtchi (07:16):
I love and I think that, I think a lot of
people feel that way, and Ithink it's hard, especially as
society sort of feels like it'sfalling apart, that there's this
part of us that wants to step upwhere we can and do what we can
and and step in where we can.
And I think, to your point,there are a lot of people really
not taking care of themselves inthe process, right? And so, you
(07:37):
know, it's, it's a I'm puttingother people first, which it's
not bad to consider otherpeople, as you said, but when it
comes at the expense of yourmental health, physical health,
that's where it becomesproblematic, is that what I hear
you saying, I think
Cait Donovan (07:54):
it becomes problematic there, and I think
it becomes problematic when youare so strict about it that you
are judging people harshly whenthey're not following the rules
that you're following, because Idon't think that that's a useful
energy to put out into theworld. So if I agree with I'm
doing everything that I can dowhile still paying attention to
(08:14):
my body, and it is superimportant to me to put the
grocery card away, then I can goand put the grocery card away,
and somebody else thinks it'sreally important to do something
else that I'm not seeing ordoing, because that's not part
of my filter for for whateverreason, right? For whatever
reason. So I have to trust thatthis person that didn't put
their card away might be likethe best mother on the planet
(08:40):
and is raising a child that isthoughtful and empathetic and
you know, like, I don't knowwhat good they're adding to the
world, but if I'm standingaround judging people for not
doing the things I think thatthey should do, that's
exhausting me, neglecting me andgiving me an attitude
Kim Bolourtchi (09:01):
and actually not helping the problem at all, not
Cait Donovan (09:04):
helping the problem at all. Right?
Kim Bolourtchi (09:07):
I love that. And I guarantee you there are people
listening, going, Oh, my God, Ido that.
Cait Donovan (09:12):
Yeah, totally. And that's right. Like, I also, this
is another funny one, like, parkin the damn lines I don't
understand when people areparked. Like, there was a guy,
yeah, yesterday I went toNordstrom Rack, and there's I
parked in the line where thewalkway is in between two, like,
rows of parking spaces, andthere was a truck parked next to
(09:34):
me, and he pulled back furtherthan he needed to from the front
of the parking space, so his theback of his truck was in the
walkway. It's like, I'm ablebodied, I can walk around that.
But my initial reaction was tobe furious at this guy, because
somebody in a wheelchair or oncrutches or with some other
mobility issue might need to getaround your damn big truck, and
(09:55):
you could have pulled forwardsix more inches, and it would
have been fine. But what. Gooddoes it do for me to now be
furious at a person who is notin their car? It was, I can't
even, I could. I can't evenKaren him. I, you know, I can't
even do anything like there's, Ihave no power here,
Kim Bolourtchi (10:19):
right? So, so how do you walk yourself back
Cait Donovan (10:24):
exactly by saying those things in my head. I don't
know if you've seen there's afourth grade teacher on
Instagram. Her name is MissBrazil, and she did this video
that went viral about firstthoughts, second thoughts and
and on. When she said, you knowyou are not like just your first
thoughts, the person you aregoes beyond your first thoughts,
(10:45):
your first reactions, yourinitial emotions, your job, as
you grow and learn and changeand become an adult and learn
how to interact with the worldis to allow yourself the grace
of having a second thought andmaybe a third and a fourth until
you get to the one that's theway that you want to act in the
Kim Bolourtchi (11:02):
world. Love that.
Cait Donovan (11:06):
So I do that.
That's my my first I admitted myfirst thought and my first
emotional reaction to it, right?
And I said, Well, what's mysecond thought? This person
backed up all the way into theparking spot, possibly because
he knows he has a big truck anddidn't want to be sticking out
so that people couldn't drivedown the row, and didn't realize
that those six inches made thatmuch of a difference. My next
(11:30):
thought might be, maybe thisperson is running in to return
something, and is literallygoing to be gone for 90 seconds,
and they will be out of herebefore anything could even and
maybe the person in thewheelchair that happens to come
along at just the quote, unquotewrong time understands that they
(11:50):
are strong enough to move aroundthis obstacle. And I'm making it
a problem, and they are not. I'mdeciding for them that this is a
problem, like, maybe they'refine.
Kim Bolourtchi (12:04):
I love it. It's a good process to think through.
Yeah, so when you think aboutrules that you've strategically
broken, right in addition to theones that you're recognizing
impacted you, what are some thatyou've chosen to break along the
way, that people were like, Thisis how you have to do the thing
(12:25):
to get where you want to go. Andyou were like, No, thanks.
Cait Donovan (12:29):
Yeah. I think the first real big one was I started
a pre med program at BostonUniversity on a full academic
scholarship, or a 95% academicscholarship, pretty much full.
And for a kid from the ghetto,this was a very big deal, and my
parents were never going to havethe money to send me to school,
so it was like, you have thisopportunity, you have to take
(12:51):
it. And a year and a half in, Irealized it was not the right
path for me. Chose another path.
Finished my second semester ofmy sophomore year, and dropped
out, and the world was a flame.
Kim Bolourtchi (13:07):
I bet it was, I bet it was, I bet, I bet people
told you you'd lost your mind,you weren't going to make it.
You were throwing away thebiggest opportunity of your
life. And on and on and onright.
Cait Donovan (13:21):
And also, I got told, I don't know why you're
now choosing Chinese medicine.
You'll never make any moneydoing that.
Kim Bolourtchi (13:30):
Yep, and,
Cait Donovan (13:33):
and worked out just fine, really. I mean, it
worked out. I love Chinesemedicine with a passion running
it as a business, and burnt meout along the way. But that was
not Chinese medicine's fault.
That was my own internal stuffthat was driving me while I was
in school for Chinese medicine.
(13:55):
It's a four year master'sprogram. Most people don't
realize that we actually go toschool for an extended period of
time. I know you know, but mostpeople don't know. So it's a
four year master's program.
Three years in, I decided totake a semester off. I had this
urge to go to Argentina. I wentby myself, bought a ticket with
quarters. I saved up frombartending, flew there, got
there, the first person I metwas the man that would
(14:17):
eventually become my husband. Iwas only gone for a couple of
months. Of months. I was withhim in the same city for just
six weeks. I came back from thissemester long journey through
South America, came back to SanDiego, where I was doing my
degree, and told everybody I'mengaged. And they were like,
you don't even know this person.
What is wrong with you? And Iwas like, I don't know. I think
(14:43):
it's okay. 20 years later, herewe are. We're all right. So
Kim Bolourtchi (14:50):
I mean, you a track record of really trusting
yourself and what you know to betrue about about you and your
life, even when. And peopledon't see it at all. And even
when the rules right the way wedo things within quotation
marks, for those people who arejust listening to audio, say,
you know, here's the path. Yousaid, No, thank you. I'm going
(15:13):
to do it my way, and it's workedout really beautifully for you,
Cait Donovan (15:17):
really beautiful in some ways, and really tough
in others. You know, another oneof the big moves was this person
that I met was not American, andhe had fully paid for apartment
in Warsaw. He's polish, and hehad an apartment that his
parents bought him to go tocollege in. So we decided to
start off our lives there. Iwanted to learn Polish and also
(15:38):
having incredible student loansto pay off and not having rent
to pay sounded really attractiveto both of us. So that was the
choice we made. And my friendswere like, you're going to move
where they people didn't evenknow what language they spoke.
People, I mean, everyone wasvery they're like, What are you
going to do there? Apparently,what I'm going to do is build an
acupuncture empire. But hold ona second for that, like we'll
(16:01):
get there. Yeah, I didn't know.
I didn't know if I could legallypractice acupuncture in Poland.
I didn't know what was going on.
So that was a huge risk, butmade the sense at the time for
all sorts of different reasons.
So cool, that job ended up beingthe beginning of my burnout, but
(16:21):
it was the environment. Polandis not my place. Love it for
lots of reasons, not my place,not where I feel most
comfortable. I had these underunderpinnings of unworthiness
that I took with me. So I wasover giving to every single
patient. I was like a lifecoach, a therapist, a
(16:42):
nutritionist, you know. I wasdoing everything for everyone
and not charging for it. I wasan inexperienced business owner,
which meant that I didn'tunderstand that I should have
hired a receptionist. A longtime ago, I was doing everything
by myself, and at the time I wasI was 27 you know, and I was
extremely busy, and I had athree month waiting list, and I
(17:03):
was getting invited to, like,morning talk shows on TV. And it
was all of this success that Ididn't know how to manage. And
thinking about having anassistant or receptionist, the
only thing I could consider washow much less money I'd have at
the end of the month if I didthat, not understanding that if
I paid them, I could probablymake more than enough to cover
their salary and then some,because so much of my time would
(17:25):
be freed up, like there was justa lot of things going on all at
the same time that led me toburnout. So you could say my
choices, my brave, bold choices,drove me to the ground. Do
Kim Bolourtchi (17:42):
you regret them?
No,
Cait Donovan (17:46):
no, thank God. I burnt out when I did. I burnt
out young, 2829 I have built anincredible business off of that
experience. I get to useeverything that I learned in
Chinese medicine school, and Iwent back and got another degree
in bio behavioral health, I getto do all the things that I love
(18:13):
in a business that couldn't haveeven existed when I finished
school. We didn't there were,like, barely iPhones when I
finished acupuncture school.
Kim Bolourtchi (18:22):
This is a hard question, but do you think that
because you were sort of aheadof, ahead of where society said
we can be right, you were sortof ahead of the space where the
rules ever contemplated. Youwere existing in this place
where the boxes didn't conceiveright? You're just sort of out
there doing this thing, and atthe same time, this feeling of
(18:44):
needing to prove that youdeserved to be there at every
turn, that that contributed tothe difficulty that you faced on
this journey. 100%
Cait Donovan (18:56):
it's still, you know, the the speaking world,
for those of you who don't know,is the wild wild west. You can
pay to speak, or you can getpaid hundreds of 1000s of
dollars to speak, and everythingfrom paying to getting paid
hundreds of 1000s of dollars isreasonable in this world.
(19:16):
There's no real rules. Sochanging your prices and
accepting payment and gettingpaid big numbers for a day,
which really is like two monthsof work, if we're honest, but
all of that I had to workthrough again when I started
this business, because it'shard, but if you don't take the
(19:39):
big numbers, you can't survivein this business. So it's like
you have to learn how to dothat, but thinking that what I
was offering was good enough toget that still something that I
have to like, I have to sit downwith myself sometimes and have
first thoughts and secondthoughts and third thoughts to
get through it, even though I.
So I am very well aware that onetalk in one company could save a
(20:03):
company literally millions ofdollars. So their fee, my fee
for that is basically nothing incomparison, and yet I still have
to do I deserve this space. Do Iknow enough to speak up? What
did I decide I needed to learnagain. The other day, somebody
said something about Chinesemedicine, and I couldn't
(20:24):
remember exactly what the like,what the rule was about it,
because I finished school, youknow, almost 20 years ago, and I
remember thinking, Oh, my God, Ihave to go back and do more
courses. Instead of being like,just look it up. Remind yourself
and get back into yourknowledge. Like, I always feel
like there's more to learn, moreto put underneath my name, to
(20:45):
say, no, no, seriously, I canlike, I'm good enough for this.
I'm still doing that to not, notto the degree that I was doing
it before, but it's still partof my story, for sure. Yeah,
Kim Bolourtchi (20:58):
I still appreciate you sharing that, and
I think it's it's something thatwe do not talk about enough,
because I think that everysingle one of us, myself
included, in the space of livingoutside the boundaries like the
one thing that the rules give usis security, right rules, people
who follow the rules and do thethings they've been told to do
and follow the path they've beengiven, they know exactly what's
(21:20):
coming, and they might have thisyearning in their heart and
their their soul for more, andthey might know they're capable
of more, and they might knowthis isn't really what they're
supposed to be doing. But ifthey don't ever challenge it,
and they stay there, they'regoing to live a life that's
status quo, right? It'spredictable, it's been
determined, it's been livedbefore and and so there's that.
But when you challenge, you knowwhat's been done before, and you
(21:44):
challenge, and you go to a spacethat's just for you and and you
do it in a way that's just foryou, and you have people along
the way going, what are youdoing? Are you out of your mind?
I mean, if I had a dime forevery time someone told me that,
I'd like, literally, you know,probably a kid wouldn't. I
wouldn't have paid for collegefor one of my kids, but, but
it's, it's really hard, and ofcourse, with it comes this idea
of, do I know enough? Am I goodenough? Do I deserve to be here?
(22:09):
Does anybody actually want tohear what I want to say? Like
that dialog, I think, is veryreal, in large part because
we're doing it in a space thathasn't been done before. And so
for people who are are braveenough right to go here, like I
want them to know this is realand you're not freaking alone,
because every one of us, nomatter what it looks like, you
(22:31):
know, this is something I sitdown with, with myself. You
know, you sit down you've got,you know, this incredible
career, a podcast that's one ofthe top burnout podcast, it's
like, way up there, isn't it,
Cait Donovan (22:44):
right? Yeah, we're top 1% globally. And in the
burnout podcast, I think we'renumber two in the world. Okay,
so
Kim Bolourtchi (22:50):
number two burnout podcast in the world?
Yeah. And you know, you're stillhaving these conversations with
yourself. So so like, thank youso much for for the candor on
that. And also I really hopepeople can hear this and take
heart that this is sort of theprice we pay for doing it this
way. But I wouldn't have it anyother way,
Cait Donovan (23:08):
and me either, right? Like, either
Kim Bolourtchi (23:12):
because, you know, yeah, it's it's tricky and
it's painful, and neither of usis going to sit here and say,
Oh, it's unicorns and rainbowsand whatever, like, yeah, it's
messy, messy, messy, but it'sfreaking amazing when you live
life on your terms.
Cait Donovan (23:26):
And the constraint that I would feel living by the
normal rules is moreuncomfortable to me than the
discomfort of thisvulnerability. Yes, so if there
are people and there are peoplethat are happier in the rules
and more content within therules, and maybe they have
little dreams sometimes, butthey're like, this is actually
(23:48):
more like, I'm almost jealous ofthat sometimes. How nice would
it be to just live an ordinarylife in the rules? Like that
must be comforting on somelevel, but it's not actually
comforting for me, and that'swhat I have to remind myself,
what I'm like maybe because, youknow, if you're not really an
entrepreneur of every sixmonths, you're not like, Oh my
(24:09):
God, should I get a job? And soevery time I look, because I
look, I look for acupuncturejobs, I look at organizational
psychology, jobs like workculture. I look at all sorts of
jobs, and every time I look, Ithink, Oh, my God, I can't do
that. No, I can't. I'm not evenemployable, because you're going
(24:30):
to tell me to do something acertain way, and I'm going to be
like I thought that. No, that'swrong. No,
Kim Bolourtchi (24:37):
I love that. I feel that though. I think it's
hilarious that you look forjobs,
Cait Donovan (24:42):
yeah, every six months. So
Kim Bolourtchi (24:45):
I've heard you say that resentment is a
superpower. And I am so curiousabout this, because I've always
thought that resentment wasreally bad. Both
Cait Donovan (24:56):
people do. It's my favorite emotion. What.
Resentment will teach you everysingle time two things that were
critical for me in my burnoutrecovery journey, and I have
found are critical for 1000s ofpeople during their burnout
recovery journey, resentmentwill teach you every single
place that your boundaries arebeing crossed most of the time
(25:18):
by you, but that's you know,different conversation. Most
people are taught like, oh, setboundaries. Say no, but we're
not actually taught to figureout where those boundaries are
really necessary. So we startmaking it up, and then we don't
hold them, because we're notsure if we really mean it and it
doesn't. It all just doesn'tmake a lot of sense. Because to
(25:40):
me, we're missing the firststep. If we look toward
resentment and say, Oh, theseare all the places that I
actually don't want to spendenergy the way that I'm spending
it, because that's whatresentment means. I'm giving
more here than I actually wantto give. My generosity is being
abused or underappreciated. Oneof the two, if you look at those
(26:01):
areas and you find them, you cansay, Oh, here's where I don't
want to actually spend energy.
The trick is, then you have tobe honest with yourself about
the fact that you don't actuallywant to spend energy there, even
though you think it makes you agood person. So you have to let
go of good person syndrome. Youhave to remove yourself from
this. Need to be constantly themost considerate and the most
everything, you have to be ableto take those things away and
(26:24):
say, Okay, here's all the placeswhere I actually need different
boundaries. Most of those willmean you just not overstepping
and over giving and overmeddling and doing all the extra
things. Sometimes it meanshaving a conversation with
another person. So that'sresentment teaches you thing.
Number one is boundaries. Theother thing that it teaches you,
which is super sneaky, and youreally have to be willing to dig
(26:46):
for it, is resentment will showyou every single place in your
life that you have chosen selfneglect and the type of self
care that your body is actuallycraving. An example, was doing
dishes the other day, and myhusband was laying on the couch,
(27:09):
and it was a Monday night, whichmeans Tuesday morning the
housekeepers come. Very lucky. Iknow that this is a privilege,
very lucky to have housekeeperscome on Tuesday mornings and
straighten us out for a couplehours, the dishes I don't
actually need to do. But in mymind, I've created a rule that I
can't rest today, because Idon't feel like that every day,
(27:31):
but right now today, I feel likethese dishes need to be done, so
I'm doing them, and I'm lookingat my husband, and I'm getting a
little resentful that I'mstanding here doing the dishes
and he's not. And then I said,Oh, look, this is a resentment.
Yay, yay. That means I canfigure something out. Because I
love resentment now, every timeit pops up, I'm joyful. I say,
Okay, well, what's actuallygoing on here? Am I actually
(27:53):
upset that he's not doing thedishes? Because is that really
what's going on? And what Inoticed underneath Dig, dig,
dig, was that I wasn't upsetthat he wasn't doing the dishes.
I was resentful and envious thathe was allowing himself to lie
down when I had decided therewas more work to be done that
(28:14):
day. I was not allowing myselfto rest and lie down, even
though that's what I was clearlycraving,
Kim Bolourtchi (28:28):
interesting. So it was absolutely about you 110%
I love that, and actually itmakes a lot of sense, because I
think a lot of times when wefeel it's, it's really always
about, it's really always aboutus, right? And what we're
thinking, it's not about theperson or the thing. It's, it's
(28:52):
about how we're narcissist,
Cait Donovan (28:55):
right? Yeah, there are people that take advantage,
yeah. So it's, I want to there'sa caveat in here. Okay? If
you're being bullied, yeah,you're living with a narcissist,
then the rules shift a littlebit, okay? Because it might be
about their behavior, yep, ifyou're being gaslit, it's about
(29:17):
their behavior. When you don'tnotice things along the way.
That's how you end up trapped inthose situations, because you
accepted and accepted and youlet the resentment build and you
accept it, and the resentmentbuilt and you accept it, and the
resentment built and you acceptit, and the resentment build
until now it's exploding witheverywhere and everything that
(29:39):
happens and every action they door don't do, and you don't
understand why you feel so wild.
Well, it's been 12 years ofbeing gas lit by a narcissist.
That's not really your fault,and I would say 85% of the time
it's about your own
Kim Bolourtchi (29:59):
shit. Yeah, so did you stop doing the dishes I
Cait Donovan (30:03):
did? I literally turned the water off and laid
down.
Kim Bolourtchi (30:09):
I think a lot of people have those rules about
this has to happen before I'mallowed to have x this has to
happen before I'm allowed to behappy. This has to happen before
I'm allowed to rest. We have toearn our satisfaction. We have
to earn our ability to be happywhen, in fact, we're entitled to
it in every moment, at everysecond, no matter what
Cait Donovan (30:26):
time and where we truly want it. Resentment will
tell us, I love that, right?
Because a lot of times peoplethat end up burnt out, or people
that are or have a lot ofresentment, one of the big
reasons is what I said in thebeginning, like I was so focused
on on the outward things thatneeded to be done that I didn't
know what my own wants, needs,desires and prefers. Were those
(30:46):
to me, always come in a packageof four wants, needs, desires
and preferences. They belongtogether in my world. And if you
don't know what they are, youcan read every self help book in
the world, and you're nevergoing to feel good in your life
because you don't know what youactually want, right? Because
(31:07):
you have taught, been taughtmost of the time to not know
that it's also not your faultthat you're not tuned into it.
You learned that also right, butyou find it. You have to allow
the resentment to come up, andyou have to be willing to look
at it, because it will tell youevery single time this is
something you want. This issomething you desire. Your
(31:30):
preference is Mexican food.
Today you're annoyed thatsomebody just chose Italian your
preference was something elsethat you did not allow yourself
to point out until somebody elsesaid something, and then it's
sitting right here. It bubblesup and sits right here, and you
don't say anything, and then yougo eat the Italian but you
really want some guac.
Kim Bolourtchi (31:54):
I'm not going to think about resentment the same
way after this conversation.
Cait Donovan (31:58):
It's the best.
It's also how I do my pricing inmy business, really, yeah. The
question that comes up for meis, is the exchange that I'm
saying yes to right now going toallow me to arrive in my full
generosity and give everythingthat I like to give, or is it
going to make me feel resentful?
(32:22):
If it's going to make me feelresentful, it's not enough.
Kim Bolourtchi (32:28):
So this is really, this is really your
guide. Yeah,
Cait Donovan (32:32):
100% Wow. It took me months to get to it. I was
doing a proprioceptive writingtechnique, and I found I kept
ending up on resentment. And Iwas like, What the heck is going
on here? And now I've seen itpop up a little times. I have
the resentment journal is, iscopy written to me, but I have
seen it pop up now in a coupledifferent places since I started
(32:53):
talking about it. And I've seenit, you know, here and there
start to, like, drip aroundafter four or five years of
talking about it almost nonstop, and I'm thrilled that it's
starting to, like, make its wayto people, because I really
think that allowing people areally sure fire way to
(33:13):
understand what they trulydesire, yeah, gives people the
opportunity to actually get itinstead of making a Vision Board
of things you think you want maynot be related to anything well.
And
Kim Bolourtchi (33:25):
I mean, I think, I think you've hit on something
right? Because what we think wewant and what we really want
sometimes are reallydisconnected by what we've been
told we're allowed to have. Andso I ask leaders all the time
what they want, and they'llanswer me, and I'm like, Are you
sure like? And then, you know,it'll come out many, many layers
(33:45):
after we've been digging intoclarity, they want something
completely different, orsomething that's much bigger,
much more exciting, but theyjust don't think they're allowed
to have it, or that it's evenpossible. So to your point, you
know, there's so muchconditioning around staying
small, staying safe, making surewe take care of our people and
don't disappoint anyone in thisjourney. And we're so much
(34:08):
smaller than we can be, yeah,right? If people have a tool
that helps them, you know, do Ifeel resentful when I think
about this for the rest of mylife? Do I think? You know, do I
feel resentful when I thinkabout this as the path for my
company, or for myself or for myteam. I love that there is
something tangible people can doin addition to the what do I
want. You know, what pisses meoff? Like, ah, what do I not
(34:33):
want?
Cait Donovan (34:34):
What's really getting under my skin? This is
also, in addition to choosing mypricing, it's also how I figure
out who I'm going to hire next,because I start feeling
resentful about doing a taskthat is not my zone of genius,
that that's an easy gift, andsomebody else really wants to do
that job.
Kim Bolourtchi (34:52):
Yeah? Oh, 100% there's somebody that loves that
job,
Cait Donovan (34:56):
yeah, let them do it, and it's so it can be easy
to. Say, right? I understandthat there's costs involved.
Last year, at the end of theyear, with the investment that I
made for the speaker reel, letme tell you, my accountant was
like, you shouldn't have paidany of the taxes that you paid
this year, because it's allcoming back, because you didn't
make enough money. And I didn'tmake enough money because I paid
(35:18):
all the people to do the thingsI didn't want to do. Which means
that as we continue to grow, Iget to still focus on the things
that are bringing me more moneyand bringing me more joy and
bringing me more peace, and allof the other things are going to
be taken care of. It's amomentary investment that puts
things sort of like I had to, Ihad to take a dive down so I
could take a dive up.
Kim Bolourtchi (35:39):
Yes, I subscribe to that 100% I think the more
we're in our zone of genius andwe're doing the things that
light us up, that's just for me,it's a it's a hell yes, I'm lit
or it's a no. And if it's a no,there's somebody who's going to
be lit up by the thing that's ano. So I agree. Tell, tell my
listeners how they can find you,connect with you, if they want
(36:01):
to have you speak. You are soamazing. Oh, thanks.
Cait Donovan (36:04):
This is so fun.
The best place is to go to pridethe burnout podcast, because
then you can see all of thethings and all of the topics and
all of the people and all of themagic. And otherwise, I really
recommend that people connect onLinkedIn. My name is Kate
Donovan, C, A, it, and everybodyknows how to spell Donovan. So
Kim Bolourtchi (36:21):
amazing. I cannot thank you enough for
taking the time to be with metoday. It was such a pleasure
chatting with you same.
Cait Donovan (36:27):
Thanks for having me. Of course, you.
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