June 30, 2025 • 27 mins
Tired of fear holding you back? Anne Bonney—professional change-maker and keynote speaker—is about to drop the most dangerous weapon in your personal development arsenal: a 5-second courage hack that will transform how you approach change forever.
In this raw, hilarious conversation, Anne reveals how she went from a rebellious teenager sent to boarding school to a keynote speaker who helps people dance in their discomfort zone. Expect zero BS, maximum inspiration, and a practical strategy that will make your inner critic shut up and sit down. Whether you're stuck in a career rut, terrified of making a big life shift, or just need a kick in the pants, this episode is your wake-up call. Get ready to "punch it, Margaret"—your most unruly life starts now.
Connect with Anne:
https://YourChangeSpeaker.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/annebonney/
https://www.instagram.com/speakerannebonney/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kim Bolourtchi (00:00):
Welcome to get unruly. Today I am so excited to
(00:04):
have the absolute fabulous AnneBonney. We're going to talk
about getting uncomfortable andchange. And you are known for
helping people navigate change,but when it's uncomfortable, and
I think one of the things thatfascinates me so much about you
(00:24):
is that you have a reallyunusual path that has helped you
become an expert in this. Solet's start with that.
Anne Bonney (00:34):
Well, it all started on a summer day in 1973
No, yeah, it's I was, you know,born here in the US, and then
when I came home from secondgrade, my parents said we're
moving to Saudi Arabia. Then,you know, we had already moved
three or four times already. Andso we moved to Saudi then we
moved to Egypt, then we moved toGreece, then I got sent to
(00:55):
boarding school because I had aparticularly unruly freshman
year in high school. And then,you know, with all that moving,
I kind of became a gypsy atheart, and have continued
moving. I've moved now 29 times.
I literally just bought a housea month ago, so I am moving into
the new house. But I moved alot. I've changed a lot of jobs.
I started out my career as aspecial needs teacher. Then I
(01:16):
went and trained animals. Irealized that, oh my gosh, that
was the dream job I had, and Icould do it. So I did, and that
was awesome, seals and sea lionsin Boston and then birds of prey
down in Arizona. Then I decidedI needed a big kid job. So I got
a job with under armor inBaltimore, and worked for them
for about 10 years, helping tolaunch that brand. Then moved on
(01:36):
to a group exercise company outof New Zealand. I was still in
Baltimore, and then got a jobwith a large gym chain in New
York City, and then realized thebig kid jobs were for the birds
and I would start my own. And so10 years ago, I left that moved
in with my parents and started aspeaking business. And that was
10 years ago, and the fact thatI just bought a house down in St
(01:58):
Pete, Florida about a month agowill kind of illustrate that
it's working. So, yeah, as I wasstarting my speaking career, you
know, you realize, you know, Icould speak on leadership, I
could speak on, you know,customer service, I could speak
on all these things that I'velearned along the way. But one
day, I was in the shower and Iwas like, Anne, you know,
change. People hate change.
(02:22):
That's what you should do. Sohere we are.
Kim Bolourtchi (02:26):
I love that.
Okay, so before we get into it,I have to ask you, Are we
allowed to know what you did inin ninth grade to get sent to
boarding school?
Unknown (02:33):
Oh, I started dating a boy and ran away from home a lot
and did all the all the thingsthat a 14 year old daughter, you
don't want your 14 year olddaughter to do I did them all.
Okay, thank goodness that I gotout of that, because it was not
a healthy path for the sweetlittle 14 year old girl. Learned
a lot healthy like greatlessons. Yeah, I know that most
(02:56):
of the gray hair on my parentshead is because of
Kim Bolourtchi (03:01):
me. Well, I'm glad that they were able to
remove you from that, and sorryfor the personal question, but
immediately, you know, everybodywants to know what, what, what
caused that? I had to answer
Unknown (03:12):
the question that everybody had, I had to ask,
right? That's why I didn't havechildren, because they would
probably that would be, youknow, revenge for everything you
did to your parents. And no,
Kim Bolourtchi (03:22):
I just always say, I'm so glad we didn't have
phones when I was growing up,because there's no evidence. My
kids never got to see any of thethings that I did, and so
therefore it never happened.
Yeah, right, yep. So when wetalk about change, one of the
things that I think is so trueis, you know, it's inevitable,
it happens. It's constant. And alot of times when people know
(03:47):
they need to change, they don'twant to fucking do it, and they
will sit in the space of, I knowI need to change. I can give you
all the reasons why I need tochange. It has to happen. I need
to do it. And yet they will comeup with every single reason not
to make it happen. I would loveto talk about how you
particularly get people throughthat uncomfortable space.
Unknown (04:14):
Well, I think self awareness is kind of the first
step to any personaldevelopment, any personal change
or acceptance of an externalchange. And so the awareness
that our brains prefer knownover unknown is the key here,
right? We better the evil youknow, than that dark place that
(04:37):
could be phenomenal. And youknow, you got to get out of this
one. But I don't know what'shappening over there, you know,
and that unknown is scarier thaneven the scariest known. And so
having that recognition as youknow, as I'm on stage and I'm
talking to large groups ofpeople about the changes they're
going through and the fears theyhave, it be. Comes having that
(05:02):
recognition of why it's soscary, and that that fear in
your brain is should be a speedbump rather than a stop sign,
right? It's in a moment to say,Okay, this is scary. Is there a
bus coming? Am I about to beeaten by a mastodon? No, I
probably lived through this,it's gonna take some courage,
(05:24):
but I know it's gonna be betteron the other side, and that's
kind of the first step, isrecognizing why it's scary and
being able to move anyway.
That's true
Kim Bolourtchi (05:34):
courage. Yeah, I love that. And I also think
sometimes people are like, yeah,I get that, and I just don't
have courage. What do you say tothat
Unknown (05:46):
baloney? But me, just like me when I was 14, my
parents couldn't say anything tome that would make me learn
anything, right? Me saying thatdoesn't do any good, you know,
to you learn the lessons whenyou're ready to learn the
lessons. Yeah, and that. Andthey, you know, they say that
when the, when the student isready, the the message appears.
I say, the teacher appears, themessage appears. And, you know,
(06:10):
everybody does have courage. Itjust takes, you know, and one of
the premises that I talk aboutis punch it Margaret, which is
just a, it's a fun, silly way togive you that five seconds of
courage that you need to getstarted. Because oftentimes it's
not, you don't need longcourage. You just need five
seconds of courage to getstarted. It's the activation
(06:32):
energy that is the hardest part.
Because once you're going,you're like, All right, we're
go, we're good. We're dancing inthe discomfort zone. Now let's
keep dancing. It's just thatfive seconds so that that punch
it Margaret is a is a fun storyI tell that helps to just give
you that little burst. Because,again, you don't need to have a
whole body full of courage. Youjust need it in that one foot to
take that first step.
Kim Bolourtchi (06:55):
I love that.
Who's Margaret?
Unknown (06:57):
My grandma. Oh, you want to know the story. Yeah.
Okay, so she was an Englishteacher, right? She was also a
very cautious driver, almost tothe point of being dangerous,
definitely to the point ofinconveniencing everybody on the
road in Greensboro, NorthCarolina. So one summer, my
brother and I were driving withher, she was driving, and we
(07:19):
come to a four way stop. She, ofcourse, you know, comes to a
complete stop, lets everybodygo, that's their turn, and then
uses the English teacher look oneverybody else at the
intersection, so that they knowthat it is her turn. And then
she eases into the intersection.
I mean, we get halfway through,she's still going two miles an
hour, and I could tell mybrother in the front seat is
(07:41):
about to lose his stuff, and heturns to her, and he goes, punch
it Margaret. And it wasn't agood moment at the time,
because, I mean, she punched it,but then she pulled over to yell
at him, but like, that funnylittle and it's from a Toyota
commercial in the 70s, you know,but that little punch it
Margaret, that little juice youget from saying that to yourself
(08:03):
can give you that. It makes youlaugh a little, which makes you
relax, yeah, it helps you to beable to, again, take that first
step. So that's, I love that.
Yeah, yep, I got stickers too.
You know, I give them out at mykeynotes. That's
Kim Bolourtchi (08:20):
amazing. And I think that is such it's such
great advice too. Because Ithink a lot of times people just
need to get going right? It'sthat resistance to the even that
first step, and they're thinkingabout it in, like, the big,
global way of, oh my gosh, thisfeels really big. And so the
idea of just do something, justgo
Unknown (08:40):
well. And that's the thing, do something, action
shrivels anxiety. When we'rebeing anxious about something,
we're sitting around on theporch of our old comfort zone,
right? We know we need to go outinto the discomfort zone, but we
don't want to leave the porchbecause there's a lot of risk,
and we're swirling around in theanxiety of what could happen,
(09:01):
right? Still anticipating futureand rolling around in all the
old information. Once we get offthe porch, start dancing, start
moving, do something, even ifit's just a small step, asking a
question, looking something uponline, we start to learn new
things, and the anxiety goesdown because we realize it's
(09:22):
just not that bad part ofanalysis paralysis. And I hate
that term because it doesn'tcome out of my face, right? I
call it hesitation nation. Partof being stuck in hesitation
nation is that fear of whatcould happen and making it way
bigger than than it usually is.
And so act. I always say actionshrivels anxiety. Just take a
(09:42):
step, do something in thatdirection, and things start to
become more clear and lessscary.
Kim Bolourtchi (09:49):
I love that. I love that because anticipating
is also trying to predict thefuture right, which we cannot do
right? Yeah, like ever.
Unknown (09:57):
And you know what that voice of doubt in your head is
always. Is going to make it wayworse than it. I mean, not that
it possibly could be. Yeah, itcould end up that bad, but it's
really unlikely, you know, andour brain but but the challenge
is, our inner voice of doubtknows everything we've screwed
up every time we've embarrassedourselves, all the full sheets
(10:18):
of Girl Scout cookies that weate, you know, what we didn't
know, what we don't what we youknow, it has all the data which
makes it really hard to trustourselves that even if it
doesn't go the perfect way,we'll figure it out 100%
Kim Bolourtchi (10:35):
Yeah, and I'm going to add in one other
element, which is the thing Ilove to talk about, which are
the rules, right? So all therules we've been taught about,
what we're allowed to have, whatwe're allowed to do, what is
going to help us be successful,what is going to help us get to
the place we're supposed to be,what's going to make us, you
(10:56):
know, admired and respected, andall of those things we have, all
of that that we're looking attoo,
Unknown (11:05):
and so and recognizing what those quote, unquote rules
are. You know, they're they'remade up from society, or they're
people trying to keep us safe bynot taking the risk of action,
the risk of change, right? Imean, there are all kinds of
(11:26):
things. I read a book, my veryfirst personal development book,
The Art of Possibility, by Benand Rosamond zander. And one of
their rules is, it is allinvented. And that blew my mind,
recognizing that most of theshoulds should be considered,
(11:46):
and if we do decide to goforward with the rules, we did
it on purpose, not becausethere's somebody else's rules.
Yeah.
Kim Bolourtchi (11:53):
So do you have any rules that are stuck in your
sort of stuck in your life, orthat are keeping you from doing
the thing you're meant to do inthe biggest way, probably can
you.
Unknown (12:09):
Yes, it's this is something that I've been
thinking a lot about. I mean,obviously when you start your
own business, you leave a bigfat six figure corporate career
in New York City to move in withyour parents and start a new
business. You've already tackledsome of those. You know,
absolutely job you should, youknow, security, blah, blah,
blah. So I'm always confrontingthese as an entrepreneur, as an
(12:30):
intentional person. You know,one of the big ones, I think I'm
still, I can still go fartherwith it, though I have gone a
long way. As you can tell by theI like turtles t shirt and the
pompadour hairdo. I alwaysthought you have to be small,
you have to be be good in orderto be loved, in order to be
(12:52):
appreciated, in order to beliked. And so for a while in my
speaking business, I had just anice little well behaved pixie
cut, and I tried to wear suitsand, you know, official business
outfits, like I should, becauseI'm running my I'm a business
woman. This is serious, and Ihad a really hard time showing
up
Kim Bolourtchi (13:11):
authentically, yeah, of course, right.
Unknown (13:15):
And so this, you should be serious and look like a
business woman, and all thatstuff was shrinking who I
actually was and what I wascapable of, and when I feel
comfortable to go do Just do me.
It works so much better, andit's so much more fun for
everyone. Yes, you know, butthat's one of the ones that I
(13:37):
think I'm probably still workingon a little bit, despite the
fact that my hair looks likeit's on fire.
Kim Bolourtchi (13:44):
Well, it's hard because we that message is so
strong. I mean, I got this, Igot the same message. And you
know, even when you're you knowthat when you're totally
authentic, your people find you.
You're way more effective.
You're having more fun, you'redoing the thing you're really
meant to do in the biggest waypossible. There's still that
voice that has been there for solong that's trying to tell you
(14:07):
what it's really supposed to be,that, you know, it peaks its its
head. And I, I love that we'retalking about this, because I
think sometimes people look atyou know, they look at you
right? And they're like, she'sso amazing and successful and
larger than life. And you know,people will see the version of
you on stage, and to know thatthere is also messaging about
(14:32):
what you know people said youshould be and that that didn't
serve you is really helpful topeople who are listening to us
talk, right?
Unknown (14:40):
Well, and part of that, don't be too big. Don't be too
you know, out there goes with,don't show off, correct? I went
to a performing arts highschool, the boarding school that
I got sent to, thank God, wasnot a reform school. It was the
Interlochen Center for the Arts,which is a phenomenal school for
developing young artists. I wasa singer. I sang opera. I have
some. So I can make somesinging, and I didn't sing for a
(15:02):
long time, and the people aresaying, you need to add it to
your keynote blah, blah, you andI are having the same
conversation. You with thedancing, me with the adding
music to my keynotes. I learnedhow to play the guitar two years
ago so that I could add music tomy keynotes, and so I could add
that element. And it'sterrifying, right? Because I
don't want to be a show off. Idon't want to just be out there
(15:23):
singing because I can. It has toserve the message. But then once
I realize how to do it right, Ineed to do it full on. There's
the one I'm still working on,because I'm still afraid to
fully commit to that. So yeah,there's the one I'm working on.
Kim Bolourtchi (15:40):
Well, this idea of not being a show off, right?
Like, let's unpack that for aminute, because I think a lot of
us have been told that. But whatis that really? You know, when
you think about that message,somebody says, Don't be a show
off. It's really not about youat all, right? Who's that about?
Unknown (15:57):
Well, it's about the person saying it, right? Because
they're uncomfortable eitherthat you're getting attention or
that you know you're being loudor you're drawing the attention
to yourself. I don't know whattheir discomfort is it, but it's
it's on them,
Kim Bolourtchi (16:12):
right? And it can also be that they would
never be comfortable with thatkind of attention, right? Or
that somebody told them it wasbad to show off or to be big,
and they lived their whole lifereally, really small, even
though they wanted to be biggerthan they are. And so the
thought of somebody elsebreaking out of that rule is
(16:34):
utterly unbearable to them. Soit's like, well, if I had to
play small girlfriend, youbetter play small too. Like, who
even knows right, right,
Unknown (16:43):
especially when it's your kid or your spouse. You
know those people that arereally, really close to you that
you desperately want to protectfrom the dangers of doing the
thing right,
Kim Bolourtchi (16:54):
right, especially if they think that we
might be embarrassed orridiculed or reject, like all
the things, yep. But ultimately,that's up to us to decide,
Unknown (17:07):
right, right? And, you know, and this is one of the
things that we all need torecognize. And one of the other
topics that I love and that Ialso speak on, is emotional
intelligence and the recognitionthat we we can't run anybody
else's life. We don't knowwhat's right for them. We can
impart our knowledge and ourexperience, but only as that,
(17:31):
you know. And so often, we cutpeople down at something that
they could be phenomenal atbecause of our own fears. And
here,
Kim Bolourtchi (17:38):
yeah, yep, no, I love that, and I think people do
it unknowingly. You know, Iwent, like, I went through a
phase where I thought it waskind of malicious. I'm not gonna
lie, I'd be like, You're an assfor, you know, basically saying
you can't do this, you can't dothat. Like, I had a real, real
attitude about it. But what I'vesort of come to realize is that
(17:58):
people just see life from theirown perspective and their own
experiences, and they genuinelyjust do and so when they say you
can't do that, or you can't havethat, or don't do that, that's
dangerous or scary or nevergoing to work, it's because it
wouldn't work for them, or theyweren't meant to do it, or it's
not in their wheelhouse, or theyhave no lived experience of it.
(18:20):
But it doesn't mean it's notgonna work for me
Unknown (18:22):
or you Right, exactly, exactly, and we might fail as
gloriously as they did when theytried it, but I'm never gonna,
like let that go for myselfuntil I fall down and skin my
knee, and then, you know what? Imight still try it again,
because if it's that importantto me and feels that right, I'm
gonna go do the thing. Yeah,
Kim Bolourtchi (18:43):
I love that. Do you have any any advice for
people who really want to do athing but are scared?
Unknown (18:52):
Well, I mean, it's everything we've been talking
about, right? Recognize thatthat fear is your brain trying
to keep you alive, but yourbrain is 100% risk averse,
right? It does not. It justwants to keep you alive. It
doesn't want to keep you happy.
We are at a place where ourbasic needs in this in the world
are generally met, and so we'removing towards that self
(19:16):
actualization. We're movingtowards that personal
development, which means we'redoing things that are beyond
just survival. We're trying tothrive, and so recognizing our
brain is there for survival, andso that fear, perfectly normal,
perfectly great if there's a buscoming, but merely that, that
pause to say, Okay, I've thoughtthis through. I'm going to go do
(19:41):
this and then using that punch,it, Margaret or whatever, is
going to get you to move throughand take that first step.
Because, and oftentimes I thinkof that too, like when I was
when I was starting addingguitar to and music to my
keynotes, I think. Didn'timmediately go up and start
singing in my keynote, right? Istarted taking lessons on the
(20:04):
guitar, then I startedpracticing the song. Then I did
it for a few people. I did it atan open mic. I kind of practiced
it in low stakes environment.
You don't have to go all in.
Just take a little step, justapproximate, don't worry about
the finish line. Just get tothat first milestone, then you
can reassess and say, Alright,cool, I did that. The other
(20:25):
thing I want you to do your Idid that. So let's go to the
next milestone, right? Take itone bite at a time. The other
thing I want you to do is, whenthat fear is happening, your
brain's going to tell you allthe reasons it's not going to
work, all the and perhaps thepeople around you all the
reasons it's not going to work.
(20:46):
All the reasons is a bad idea,all the reasons you are have no
business doing this. Right? Iwant you to talk to your brain,
rather than listen to your brainand ask, What if this goes well?
I love that path.
Kim Bolourtchi (21:04):
I love that that is a brilliant reframe. What if
this goes well?
Unknown (21:10):
List it out, journal it like, make a voice memo. I talk
to myself in the car all thetime. People in traffic probably
think I'm crazy. But you know,talk, talk it out like go all
into it, wander down that pathand get into that forest of what
if? This goes well, dream for aminute, you know, because our
brain's going to automaticallygive us the negative. So we need
(21:33):
to talk to it, rather thanlisten to it and say, okay,
yeah, all that could happen andthis goes well, boom, boom,
boom, boom.
Kim Bolourtchi (21:41):
I love that so much. Because I think, I think
we don't do that right, wedefault to the what can go
wrong, and then we get freakedout and completely,
understandably, completely, andthen we don't move. But if we
don't often give ourselves theluxury of thinking about what
happens when it goes right,exactly, that's very
Unknown (22:00):
powerful. And the other thing that that can help is,
what am I saying no to by notgoing here, right? What am I
going to be missing out on byleaving it just the way it is?
Because so often when we staysafe, we're missing out on a lot
(22:25):
of opportunities. And so bysaying what am I saying yes to?
By saying no to that, andoftentimes you're saying yes to
stagnation, mediocrity, that'sthe word so you know. And you're
like, all that feels yucky. Thisis not what I want.
Kim Bolourtchi (22:44):
And it's true, right? Because if your plates
completely full with stuff,that's kind of like, meh, you
have no space for fabulous,exceptional. I'm lit up by this.
You You don't, right? Soamazing. So just to circle back
on one thing you said, because Ithink it's really, really
important, you made the pointearlier that when you started
(23:07):
speaking, you tried to be verykind of buttoned up, and you had
the hair and you wore suits andstuff like that. And obviously,
that's not you. This is you. Sowhich worked better?
Unknown (23:18):
Oh, this by a freaking mile, like, ridiculously stupid
this, and it feels so muchbetter, like, it feels like I
can just be me, and my audiencesrespond better, so they get more
from my messaging. You know, Imean, it's, it's stupid, the
difference and,
Kim Bolourtchi (23:38):
I mean, it feels like that. That's so obvious.
But I just wanted to make thepoint for for the listeners,
because I think there's so manypeople who are still trying to
be a version of what they weretold they needed to be, and
leaving so much of themselvesout of the equation. And so I
just, I can't help but make thepoint twice, right when, when
there's an example,
Unknown (23:58):
right? And I needed to get rid of the get used to the
fact that some people are stilluncomfortable with it. I make a
joke about the lady with thecrazy hair, you know? I make a
joke about that kind of to putpeople at ease, but I don't
apologize for it in thatprocess, right? But some people
still are not all about me, andthat is fine. I am not a taco. I
(24:18):
can't make everyone happy.
That's right. And that's anotherthing that you need to
recognize, you know, if youdecide to wear giant,
flamboyantly bright, butterflycolored maxi dresses, some good
people are going to be like, youknow, let them, right? Let them.
Kim Bolourtchi (24:34):
Yeah. And I think, you know, the one thing
that really has has stuck withme that I heard recently is that
if you're being a version of youthat isn't you, your people
can't find you, right? And sowhile you're trying to be all
the things to all the peopleyou're actually you're so
watered down that the peopleyou're really meant to reach
can't find you anyway. And so I
Unknown (24:53):
mean, most importantly, you feel scripted and gross and
not comfortable and free and.
Easy and at peace. And, youknow, I mean, it just from you,
it feels
Kim Bolourtchi (25:03):
bad, yeah. So I think, you know, I think we both
agreed it's so much better tojust be fully you and let your
people find you and the peoplewho aren't for you. It's okay,
right? No worries, with the
Unknown (25:14):
caveat, of course, that you're not kicking puppies and
hurting people. You know, no, ofcourse, not. Of course, like I
draw that because my brain goesthere. It's like, well, doing
you means, you know, kickingpuppies or hurting kids, and you
need to fix that part. But therest of it, you know, do the
hair and the dress.
Kim Bolourtchi (25:32):
Yes, thank you for that. In case anybody out
there wanted to kick puppies orhurt people, do not kick puppies
or hurt people, right, right?
Well.
Unknown (25:39):
And the other piece to recognize here and in the world
today, where we do have a mentalhealth epidemic happening,
people are having challengeswith anxiety, with depression.
If you try these things and theyjust don't work, and you're
still swirling around in thefear and all that, it may be a
time to get some professionalhelp. You know, just recognizing
(26:00):
that too, that can make all thedifference if that's what your
body and your
Kim Bolourtchi (26:04):
brain need.
Yeah, I love that. Thank you somuch for the conversation today.
You're fabulous and you'refabulous too. This was super
fun, please. I'm going to putyour links and all of your
information in the notes youhave books. Do you want to tell
everybody about your books?
Unknown (26:23):
Sure, there are two fun, short tip books on dealing
with change and on leadingthrough change. So the one for
individuals is called, get overit. And somebody gave me a hard
time the other day about thattitle. Like, oh, it's rude to
tell people to get over it. I'mlike, No, Wouldn't you love to
get over it, though. Like, itwould be really nice. Here's a
(26:43):
book that can help you get overit. Like, let's get over this
together, not get over it. Iwouldn't have written the book
if I meant that. So get over itis the book on dealing with
change as an individual, andthen get them over. It is the
book on leading through change.
And these are short, small tips.
I joke about, like, keep thebook on the back your toilet,
(27:04):
because sometimes that's onlythe only time you get two or
three minutes of quiet. Read acouple pages, put it down,
absorb them throughout the day,and put it into action. So it's
a nice, easy read. They're onAmazon and everywhere else.
Books are sold.
Kim Bolourtchi (27:17):
I love it, and I'll put the links in the show
notes also. Thank you for beinghere today.
Unknown (27:21):
Yeah, my pleasure. Kim.
Anytime. Thanks for having me.
Of course,
Kim Bolourtchi (27:25):
this is Kim bolotchi, and you've been
listening to get unruly. Ifyou're enjoying the show, we
would love it if you would takea minute and give us a rating on
Apple podcasts. And if you knowanyone who needs to hear this
episode, please don't hesitateto pass it on until next time,
stay unruly. You.
Welcome to get unruly. Today I am so excited to
(00:04):
have the absolute fabulous AnneBonney. We're going to talk
about getting uncomfortable andchange. And you are known for
helping people navigate change,but when it's uncomfortable, and
I think one of the things thatfascinates me so much about you
(00:24):
is that you have a reallyunusual path that has helped you
become an expert in this. Solet's start with that.
Anne Bonney (00:34):
Well, it all started on a summer day in 1973
No, yeah, it's I was, you know,born here in the US, and then
when I came home from secondgrade, my parents said we're
moving to Saudi Arabia. Then,you know, we had already moved
three or four times already. Andso we moved to Saudi then we
moved to Egypt, then we moved toGreece, then I got sent to
(00:55):
boarding school because I had aparticularly unruly freshman
year in high school. And then,you know, with all that moving,
I kind of became a gypsy atheart, and have continued
moving. I've moved now 29 times.
I literally just bought a housea month ago, so I am moving into
the new house. But I moved alot. I've changed a lot of jobs.
I started out my career as aspecial needs teacher. Then I
(01:16):
went and trained animals. Irealized that, oh my gosh, that
was the dream job I had, and Icould do it. So I did, and that
was awesome, seals and sea lionsin Boston and then birds of prey
down in Arizona. Then I decidedI needed a big kid job. So I got
a job with under armor inBaltimore, and worked for them
for about 10 years, helping tolaunch that brand. Then moved on
(01:36):
to a group exercise company outof New Zealand. I was still in
Baltimore, and then got a jobwith a large gym chain in New
York City, and then realized thebig kid jobs were for the birds
and I would start my own. And so10 years ago, I left that moved
in with my parents and started aspeaking business. And that was
10 years ago, and the fact thatI just bought a house down in St
(01:58):
Pete, Florida about a month agowill kind of illustrate that
it's working. So, yeah, as I wasstarting my speaking career, you
know, you realize, you know, Icould speak on leadership, I
could speak on, you know,customer service, I could speak
on all these things that I'velearned along the way. But one
day, I was in the shower and Iwas like, Anne, you know,
change. People hate change.
(02:22):
That's what you should do. Sohere we are.
Kim Bolourtchi (02:26):
I love that.
Okay, so before we get into it,I have to ask you, Are we
allowed to know what you did inin ninth grade to get sent to
boarding school?
Unknown (02:33):
Oh, I started dating a boy and ran away from home a lot
and did all the all the thingsthat a 14 year old daughter, you
don't want your 14 year olddaughter to do I did them all.
Okay, thank goodness that I gotout of that, because it was not
a healthy path for the sweetlittle 14 year old girl. Learned
a lot healthy like greatlessons. Yeah, I know that most
(02:56):
of the gray hair on my parentshead is because of
Kim Bolourtchi (03:01):
me. Well, I'm glad that they were able to
remove you from that, and sorryfor the personal question, but
immediately, you know, everybodywants to know what, what, what
caused that? I had to answer
Unknown (03:12):
the question that everybody had, I had to ask,
right? That's why I didn't havechildren, because they would
probably that would be, youknow, revenge for everything you
did to your parents. And no,
Kim Bolourtchi (03:22):
I just always say, I'm so glad we didn't have
phones when I was growing up,because there's no evidence. My
kids never got to see any of thethings that I did, and so
therefore it never happened.
Yeah, right, yep. So when wetalk about change, one of the
things that I think is so trueis, you know, it's inevitable,
it happens. It's constant. And alot of times when people know
(03:47):
they need to change, they don'twant to fucking do it, and they
will sit in the space of, I knowI need to change. I can give you
all the reasons why I need tochange. It has to happen. I need
to do it. And yet they will comeup with every single reason not
to make it happen. I would loveto talk about how you
particularly get people throughthat uncomfortable space.
Unknown (04:14):
Well, I think self awareness is kind of the first
step to any personaldevelopment, any personal change
or acceptance of an externalchange. And so the awareness
that our brains prefer knownover unknown is the key here,
right? We better the evil youknow, than that dark place that
(04:37):
could be phenomenal. And youknow, you got to get out of this
one. But I don't know what'shappening over there, you know,
and that unknown is scarier thaneven the scariest known. And so
having that recognition as youknow, as I'm on stage and I'm
talking to large groups ofpeople about the changes they're
going through and the fears theyhave, it be. Comes having that
(05:02):
recognition of why it's soscary, and that that fear in
your brain is should be a speedbump rather than a stop sign,
right? It's in a moment to say,Okay, this is scary. Is there a
bus coming? Am I about to beeaten by a mastodon? No, I
probably lived through this,it's gonna take some courage,
(05:24):
but I know it's gonna be betteron the other side, and that's
kind of the first step, isrecognizing why it's scary and
being able to move anyway.
That's true
Kim Bolourtchi (05:34):
courage. Yeah, I love that. And I also think
sometimes people are like, yeah,I get that, and I just don't
have courage. What do you say tothat
Unknown (05:46):
baloney? But me, just like me when I was 14, my
parents couldn't say anything tome that would make me learn
anything, right? Me saying thatdoesn't do any good, you know,
to you learn the lessons whenyou're ready to learn the
lessons. Yeah, and that. Andthey, you know, they say that
when the, when the student isready, the the message appears.
I say, the teacher appears, themessage appears. And, you know,
(06:10):
everybody does have courage. Itjust takes, you know, and one of
the premises that I talk aboutis punch it Margaret, which is
just a, it's a fun, silly way togive you that five seconds of
courage that you need to getstarted. Because oftentimes it's
not, you don't need longcourage. You just need five
seconds of courage to getstarted. It's the activation
(06:32):
energy that is the hardest part.
Because once you're going,you're like, All right, we're
go, we're good. We're dancing inthe discomfort zone. Now let's
keep dancing. It's just thatfive seconds so that that punch
it Margaret is a is a fun storyI tell that helps to just give
you that little burst. Because,again, you don't need to have a
whole body full of courage. Youjust need it in that one foot to
take that first step.
Kim Bolourtchi (06:55):
I love that.
Who's Margaret?
Unknown (06:57):
My grandma. Oh, you want to know the story. Yeah.
Okay, so she was an Englishteacher, right? She was also a
very cautious driver, almost tothe point of being dangerous,
definitely to the point ofinconveniencing everybody on the
road in Greensboro, NorthCarolina. So one summer, my
brother and I were driving withher, she was driving, and we
(07:19):
come to a four way stop. She, ofcourse, you know, comes to a
complete stop, lets everybodygo, that's their turn, and then
uses the English teacher look oneverybody else at the
intersection, so that they knowthat it is her turn. And then
she eases into the intersection.
I mean, we get halfway through,she's still going two miles an
hour, and I could tell mybrother in the front seat is
(07:41):
about to lose his stuff, and heturns to her, and he goes, punch
it Margaret. And it wasn't agood moment at the time,
because, I mean, she punched it,but then she pulled over to yell
at him, but like, that funnylittle and it's from a Toyota
commercial in the 70s, you know,but that little punch it
Margaret, that little juice youget from saying that to yourself
(08:03):
can give you that. It makes youlaugh a little, which makes you
relax, yeah, it helps you to beable to, again, take that first
step. So that's, I love that.
Yeah, yep, I got stickers too.
You know, I give them out at mykeynotes. That's
Kim Bolourtchi (08:20):
amazing. And I think that is such it's such
great advice too. Because Ithink a lot of times people just
need to get going right? It'sthat resistance to the even that
first step, and they're thinkingabout it in, like, the big,
global way of, oh my gosh, thisfeels really big. And so the
idea of just do something, justgo
Unknown (08:40):
well. And that's the thing, do something, action
shrivels anxiety. When we'rebeing anxious about something,
we're sitting around on theporch of our old comfort zone,
right? We know we need to go outinto the discomfort zone, but we
don't want to leave the porchbecause there's a lot of risk,
and we're swirling around in theanxiety of what could happen,
(09:01):
right? Still anticipating futureand rolling around in all the
old information. Once we get offthe porch, start dancing, start
moving, do something, even ifit's just a small step, asking a
question, looking something uponline, we start to learn new
things, and the anxiety goesdown because we realize it's
(09:22):
just not that bad part ofanalysis paralysis. And I hate
that term because it doesn'tcome out of my face, right? I
call it hesitation nation. Partof being stuck in hesitation
nation is that fear of whatcould happen and making it way
bigger than than it usually is.
And so act. I always say actionshrivels anxiety. Just take a
(09:42):
step, do something in thatdirection, and things start to
become more clear and lessscary.
Kim Bolourtchi (09:49):
I love that. I love that because anticipating
is also trying to predict thefuture right, which we cannot do
right? Yeah, like ever.
Unknown (09:57):
And you know what that voice of doubt in your head is
always. Is going to make it wayworse than it. I mean, not that
it possibly could be. Yeah, itcould end up that bad, but it's
really unlikely, you know, andour brain but but the challenge
is, our inner voice of doubtknows everything we've screwed
up every time we've embarrassedourselves, all the full sheets
(10:18):
of Girl Scout cookies that weate, you know, what we didn't
know, what we don't what we youknow, it has all the data which
makes it really hard to trustourselves that even if it
doesn't go the perfect way,we'll figure it out 100%
Kim Bolourtchi (10:35):
Yeah, and I'm going to add in one other
element, which is the thing Ilove to talk about, which are
the rules, right? So all therules we've been taught about,
what we're allowed to have, whatwe're allowed to do, what is
going to help us be successful,what is going to help us get to
the place we're supposed to be,what's going to make us, you
(10:56):
know, admired and respected, andall of those things we have, all
of that that we're looking attoo,
Unknown (11:05):
and so and recognizing what those quote, unquote rules
are. You know, they're they'remade up from society, or they're
people trying to keep us safe bynot taking the risk of action,
the risk of change, right? Imean, there are all kinds of
(11:26):
things. I read a book, my veryfirst personal development book,
The Art of Possibility, by Benand Rosamond zander. And one of
their rules is, it is allinvented. And that blew my mind,
recognizing that most of theshoulds should be considered,
(11:46):
and if we do decide to goforward with the rules, we did
it on purpose, not becausethere's somebody else's rules.
Yeah.
Kim Bolourtchi (11:53):
So do you have any rules that are stuck in your
sort of stuck in your life, orthat are keeping you from doing
the thing you're meant to do inthe biggest way, probably can
you.
Unknown (12:09):
Yes, it's this is something that I've been
thinking a lot about. I mean,obviously when you start your
own business, you leave a bigfat six figure corporate career
in New York City to move in withyour parents and start a new
business. You've already tackledsome of those. You know,
absolutely job you should, youknow, security, blah, blah,
blah. So I'm always confrontingthese as an entrepreneur, as an
(12:30):
intentional person. You know,one of the big ones, I think I'm
still, I can still go fartherwith it, though I have gone a
long way. As you can tell by theI like turtles t shirt and the
pompadour hairdo. I alwaysthought you have to be small,
you have to be be good in orderto be loved, in order to be
(12:52):
appreciated, in order to beliked. And so for a while in my
speaking business, I had just anice little well behaved pixie
cut, and I tried to wear suitsand, you know, official business
outfits, like I should, becauseI'm running my I'm a business
woman. This is serious, and Ihad a really hard time showing
up
Kim Bolourtchi (13:11):
authentically, yeah, of course, right.
Unknown (13:15):
And so this, you should be serious and look like a
business woman, and all thatstuff was shrinking who I
actually was and what I wascapable of, and when I feel
comfortable to go do Just do me.
It works so much better, andit's so much more fun for
everyone. Yes, you know, butthat's one of the ones that I
(13:37):
think I'm probably still workingon a little bit, despite the
fact that my hair looks likeit's on fire.
Kim Bolourtchi (13:44):
Well, it's hard because we that message is so
strong. I mean, I got this, Igot the same message. And you
know, even when you're you knowthat when you're totally
authentic, your people find you.
You're way more effective.
You're having more fun, you'redoing the thing you're really
meant to do in the biggest waypossible. There's still that
voice that has been there for solong that's trying to tell you
(14:07):
what it's really supposed to be,that, you know, it peaks its its
head. And I, I love that we'retalking about this, because I
think sometimes people look atyou know, they look at you
right? And they're like, she'sso amazing and successful and
larger than life. And you know,people will see the version of
you on stage, and to know thatthere is also messaging about
(14:32):
what you know people said youshould be and that that didn't
serve you is really helpful topeople who are listening to us
talk, right?
Unknown (14:40):
Well, and part of that, don't be too big. Don't be too
you know, out there goes with,don't show off, correct? I went
to a performing arts highschool, the boarding school that
I got sent to, thank God, wasnot a reform school. It was the
Interlochen Center for the Arts,which is a phenomenal school for
developing young artists. I wasa singer. I sang opera. I have
some. So I can make somesinging, and I didn't sing for a
(15:02):
long time, and the people aresaying, you need to add it to
your keynote blah, blah, you andI are having the same
conversation. You with thedancing, me with the adding
music to my keynotes. I learnedhow to play the guitar two years
ago so that I could add music tomy keynotes, and so I could add
that element. And it'sterrifying, right? Because I
don't want to be a show off. Idon't want to just be out there
(15:23):
singing because I can. It has toserve the message. But then once
I realize how to do it right, Ineed to do it full on. There's
the one I'm still working on,because I'm still afraid to
fully commit to that. So yeah,there's the one I'm working on.
Kim Bolourtchi (15:40):
Well, this idea of not being a show off, right?
Like, let's unpack that for aminute, because I think a lot of
us have been told that. But whatis that really? You know, when
you think about that message,somebody says, Don't be a show
off. It's really not about youat all, right? Who's that about?
Unknown (15:57):
Well, it's about the person saying it, right? Because
they're uncomfortable eitherthat you're getting attention or
that you know you're being loudor you're drawing the attention
to yourself. I don't know whattheir discomfort is it, but it's
it's on them,
Kim Bolourtchi (16:12):
right? And it can also be that they would
never be comfortable with thatkind of attention, right? Or
that somebody told them it wasbad to show off or to be big,
and they lived their whole lifereally, really small, even
though they wanted to be biggerthan they are. And so the
thought of somebody elsebreaking out of that rule is
(16:34):
utterly unbearable to them. Soit's like, well, if I had to
play small girlfriend, youbetter play small too. Like, who
even knows right, right,
Unknown (16:43):
especially when it's your kid or your spouse. You
know those people that arereally, really close to you that
you desperately want to protectfrom the dangers of doing the
thing right,
Kim Bolourtchi (16:54):
right, especially if they think that we
might be embarrassed orridiculed or reject, like all
the things, yep. But ultimately,that's up to us to decide,
Unknown (17:07):
right, right? And, you know, and this is one of the
things that we all need torecognize. And one of the other
topics that I love and that Ialso speak on, is emotional
intelligence and the recognitionthat we we can't run anybody
else's life. We don't knowwhat's right for them. We can
impart our knowledge and ourexperience, but only as that,
(17:31):
you know. And so often, we cutpeople down at something that
they could be phenomenal atbecause of our own fears. And
here,
Kim Bolourtchi (17:38):
yeah, yep, no, I love that, and I think people do
it unknowingly. You know, Iwent, like, I went through a
phase where I thought it waskind of malicious. I'm not gonna
lie, I'd be like, You're an assfor, you know, basically saying
you can't do this, you can't dothat. Like, I had a real, real
attitude about it. But what I'vesort of come to realize is that
(17:58):
people just see life from theirown perspective and their own
experiences, and they genuinelyjust do and so when they say you
can't do that, or you can't havethat, or don't do that, that's
dangerous or scary or nevergoing to work, it's because it
wouldn't work for them, or theyweren't meant to do it, or it's
not in their wheelhouse, or theyhave no lived experience of it.
(18:20):
But it doesn't mean it's notgonna work for me
Unknown (18:22):
or you Right, exactly, exactly, and we might fail as
gloriously as they did when theytried it, but I'm never gonna,
like let that go for myselfuntil I fall down and skin my
knee, and then, you know what? Imight still try it again,
because if it's that importantto me and feels that right, I'm
gonna go do the thing. Yeah,
Kim Bolourtchi (18:43):
I love that. Do you have any any advice for
people who really want to do athing but are scared?
Unknown (18:52):
Well, I mean, it's everything we've been talking
about, right? Recognize thatthat fear is your brain trying
to keep you alive, but yourbrain is 100% risk averse,
right? It does not. It justwants to keep you alive. It
doesn't want to keep you happy.
We are at a place where ourbasic needs in this in the world
are generally met, and so we'removing towards that self
(19:16):
actualization. We're movingtowards that personal
development, which means we'redoing things that are beyond
just survival. We're trying tothrive, and so recognizing our
brain is there for survival, andso that fear, perfectly normal,
perfectly great if there's a buscoming, but merely that, that
pause to say, Okay, I've thoughtthis through. I'm going to go do
(19:41):
this and then using that punch,it, Margaret or whatever, is
going to get you to move throughand take that first step.
Because, and oftentimes I thinkof that too, like when I was
when I was starting addingguitar to and music to my
keynotes, I think. Didn'timmediately go up and start
singing in my keynote, right? Istarted taking lessons on the
(20:04):
guitar, then I startedpracticing the song. Then I did
it for a few people. I did it atan open mic. I kind of practiced
it in low stakes environment.
You don't have to go all in.
Just take a little step, justapproximate, don't worry about
the finish line. Just get tothat first milestone, then you
can reassess and say, Alright,cool, I did that. The other
(20:25):
thing I want you to do your Idid that. So let's go to the
next milestone, right? Take itone bite at a time. The other
thing I want you to do is, whenthat fear is happening, your
brain's going to tell you allthe reasons it's not going to
work, all the and perhaps thepeople around you all the
reasons it's not going to work.
(20:46):
All the reasons is a bad idea,all the reasons you are have no
business doing this. Right? Iwant you to talk to your brain,
rather than listen to your brainand ask, What if this goes well?
I love that path.
Kim Bolourtchi (21:04):
I love that that is a brilliant reframe. What if
this goes well?
Unknown (21:10):
List it out, journal it like, make a voice memo. I talk
to myself in the car all thetime. People in traffic probably
think I'm crazy. But you know,talk, talk it out like go all
into it, wander down that pathand get into that forest of what
if? This goes well, dream for aminute, you know, because our
brain's going to automaticallygive us the negative. So we need
(21:33):
to talk to it, rather thanlisten to it and say, okay,
yeah, all that could happen andthis goes well, boom, boom,
boom, boom.
Kim Bolourtchi (21:41):
I love that so much. Because I think, I think
we don't do that right, wedefault to the what can go
wrong, and then we get freakedout and completely,
understandably, completely, andthen we don't move. But if we
don't often give ourselves theluxury of thinking about what
happens when it goes right,exactly, that's very
Unknown (22:00):
powerful. And the other thing that that can help is,
what am I saying no to by notgoing here, right? What am I
going to be missing out on byleaving it just the way it is?
Because so often when we staysafe, we're missing out on a lot
(22:25):
of opportunities. And so bysaying what am I saying yes to?
By saying no to that, andoftentimes you're saying yes to
stagnation, mediocrity, that'sthe word so you know. And you're
like, all that feels yucky. Thisis not what I want.
Kim Bolourtchi (22:44):
And it's true, right? Because if your plates
completely full with stuff,that's kind of like, meh, you
have no space for fabulous,exceptional. I'm lit up by this.
You You don't, right? Soamazing. So just to circle back
on one thing you said, because Ithink it's really, really
important, you made the pointearlier that when you started
(23:07):
speaking, you tried to be verykind of buttoned up, and you had
the hair and you wore suits andstuff like that. And obviously,
that's not you. This is you. Sowhich worked better?
Unknown (23:18):
Oh, this by a freaking mile, like, ridiculously stupid
this, and it feels so muchbetter, like, it feels like I
can just be me, and my audiencesrespond better, so they get more
from my messaging. You know, Imean, it's, it's stupid, the
difference and,
Kim Bolourtchi (23:38):
I mean, it feels like that. That's so obvious.
But I just wanted to make thepoint for for the listeners,
because I think there's so manypeople who are still trying to
be a version of what they weretold they needed to be, and
leaving so much of themselvesout of the equation. And so I
just, I can't help but make thepoint twice, right when, when
there's an example,
Unknown (23:58):
right? And I needed to get rid of the get used to the
fact that some people are stilluncomfortable with it. I make a
joke about the lady with thecrazy hair, you know? I make a
joke about that kind of to putpeople at ease, but I don't
apologize for it in thatprocess, right? But some people
still are not all about me, andthat is fine. I am not a taco. I
(24:18):
can't make everyone happy.
That's right. And that's anotherthing that you need to
recognize, you know, if youdecide to wear giant,
flamboyantly bright, butterflycolored maxi dresses, some good
people are going to be like, youknow, let them, right? Let them.
Kim Bolourtchi (24:34):
Yeah. And I think, you know, the one thing
that really has has stuck withme that I heard recently is that
if you're being a version of youthat isn't you, your people
can't find you, right? And sowhile you're trying to be all
the things to all the peopleyou're actually you're so
watered down that the peopleyou're really meant to reach
can't find you anyway. And so I
Unknown (24:53):
mean, most importantly, you feel scripted and gross and
not comfortable and free and.
Easy and at peace. And, youknow, I mean, it just from you,
it feels
Kim Bolourtchi (25:03):
bad, yeah. So I think, you know, I think we both
agreed it's so much better tojust be fully you and let your
people find you and the peoplewho aren't for you. It's okay,
right? No worries, with the
Unknown (25:14):
caveat, of course, that you're not kicking puppies and
hurting people. You know, no, ofcourse, not. Of course, like I
draw that because my brain goesthere. It's like, well, doing
you means, you know, kickingpuppies or hurting kids, and you
need to fix that part. But therest of it, you know, do the
hair and the dress.
Kim Bolourtchi (25:32):
Yes, thank you for that. In case anybody out
there wanted to kick puppies orhurt people, do not kick puppies
or hurt people, right, right?
Well.
Unknown (25:39):
And the other piece to recognize here and in the world
today, where we do have a mentalhealth epidemic happening,
people are having challengeswith anxiety, with depression.
If you try these things and theyjust don't work, and you're
still swirling around in thefear and all that, it may be a
time to get some professionalhelp. You know, just recognizing
(26:00):
that too, that can make all thedifference if that's what your
body and your
Kim Bolourtchi (26:04):
brain need.
Yeah, I love that. Thank you somuch for the conversation today.
You're fabulous and you'refabulous too. This was super
fun, please. I'm going to putyour links and all of your
information in the notes youhave books. Do you want to tell
everybody about your books?
Unknown (26:23):
Sure, there are two fun, short tip books on dealing
with change and on leadingthrough change. So the one for
individuals is called, get overit. And somebody gave me a hard
time the other day about thattitle. Like, oh, it's rude to
tell people to get over it. I'mlike, No, Wouldn't you love to
get over it, though. Like, itwould be really nice. Here's a
(26:43):
book that can help you get overit. Like, let's get over this
together, not get over it. Iwouldn't have written the book
if I meant that. So get over itis the book on dealing with
change as an individual, andthen get them over. It is the
book on leading through change.
And these are short, small tips.
I joke about, like, keep thebook on the back your toilet,
(27:04):
because sometimes that's onlythe only time you get two or
three minutes of quiet. Read acouple pages, put it down,
absorb them throughout the day,and put it into action. So it's
a nice, easy read. They're onAmazon and everywhere else.
Books are sold.
Kim Bolourtchi (27:17):
I love it, and I'll put the links in the show
notes also. Thank you for beinghere today.
Unknown (27:21):
Yeah, my pleasure. Kim.
Anytime. Thanks for having me.
Of course,
Kim Bolourtchi (27:25):
this is Kim bolotchi, and you've been
listening to get unruly. Ifyou're enjoying the show, we
would love it if you would takea minute and give us a rating on
Apple podcasts. And if you knowanyone who needs to hear this
episode, please don't hesitateto pass it on until next time,
stay unruly. You.
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