May 26, 2025 • 25 mins
She’s been on the mic with me before — but never quite like this.
In this powerful return episode, I sit down with my daughter, Samantha, for a raw, unscripted conversation about something we’ve both lived: the pressure to shrink.
To dim our light.
To tone it down.
To make ourselves smaller — so other people feel more comfortable.
We talk about what that’s looked like in our lives, how it shows up differently across generations, and what it actually costs — in confidence, creativity, connection.
And then we talk about what happens when we finally stop.
This isn’t just about speaking up.
It’s about taking up space. In rooms, in relationships, in the world.
If you’ve ever held back who you really are — this episode will hit home.
Press play. Then ask yourself: Where are you still shrinking? And what if you didn’t?
Connect:
kim@kimbolourtchi.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/kimberly-bolourtchi/
Learn more:
www.kimbolourtchi.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kim Bolourtchi (00:00):
Welcome back to Get Unruly. Today's episode is
personal. I talk a lot aboutwhat it means to lead boldly, to
stop performing, stop hiding andstop editing ourselves just to
fit in. But this isn't just aleadership problem, it's
actually a human one, and todayI brought someone who's watched
(00:21):
me wrestle with this and who'slearning to navigate it in her
own way. My daughter, Samantha,is here, and we're going to talk
about the ways we both editedourselves and what happens when
we finally stop. Let's get intoit. Sam, I'm really excited
about this conversation. I'm soexcited you're here today.
Samantha Bolourtchi (00:41):
I'm so excited to be here. This is good
one. So you've grown
Kim Bolourtchi (00:45):
up watching me shift in my own voice,
especially over the past fewyears. But I also know that
you've had your own experiencewith feeling like you had to
shrink or be palatable. Let'stalk about that. And I know I'm
putting you on the spot, becauseI don't script any of my
episodes. Can you think of atime when you felt like you had
(01:06):
to make yourself smaller thanyou actually are to fit in?
Yeah,
Samantha Bolourtchi (01:10):
absolutely.
My first example when I was inhigh school. I had moved out of
the district and I was startingcross country at another high
school, it was something to tryand get involved, meet new
people. I didn't have any tiesto the community the way that
the feeder Middle School had. Igot really good at cross country
really quickly. I put my heartand soul into it. It's just part
(01:30):
of who I am. And as a result, itseemed to isolate me. I thought
that the better I got and thebetter our team got, the more
close we would get. And instead,it had the opposite effect. When
people would hear my name overthe loudspeaker, there'd be
groans, it would make meliterally shrink in my seat. And
it got to the point where Ididn't feel like I wanted to
bring any attention to anyaccolades of the Cross Country
(01:55):
department at all, which is ashame, because it's a sport
that's not very popular, and wewere doing very well that
season, but that was difficult,yeah, and
Kim Bolourtchi (02:04):
I imagine it not just to the Cross Country
department, but you probablydidn't want to bring any
attention to yourself.
Samantha Bolourtchi (02:10):
No, not at all. I remember sitting in
class, I knew what was coming.
After a good weekend, I won theClayton Invitational one year.
It was something I'd alwayswanted to do. I was so excited
to like, rep the brand of myhigh school, and I felt very
proud of that accomplishment,and nobody else seemed to share
that with me. And that wasdifficult, because I thought
maybe I had a backward mindset.
(02:31):
So I toned everything down, Ipretty much turned it all off,
and I kind of put my head down.
And that was that, well,
Kim Bolourtchi (02:38):
thank you for sharing that. Of course, that
story, I feel like every one ofus has a story like that in some
way, where we were doingsomething that really, we could
be really proud of, and thereaction from other people is
the opposite of what you'dexpect. It's negative in a way
that you can't anticipate, andit's very, very jarring. So now
(03:01):
you're 24 you're a graduatestudent at Columbia. You've
grown up a lot since that time.
And that was what like 15 yearold, 16 year old. You Yes. So
what does 24 year old you seewhen you look back at that
situation and you remember howyou shrunk?
Samantha Bolourtchi (03:22):
I think it's a beautiful reflection
insofar as to recognize that I'mquite a people pleaser, and I
don't necessarily think thatneeds to be a bad thing, but I
really inherently took hold ofthe reactions of my peers and
the people around me and sawthat as a sign that I was doing
something wrong, whereas now I'm24 and I regularly walk through
(03:44):
the streets of Manhattan with,excuse my French, but don't
really give a fuck. Type ofmentality, even as a people
pleaser, you can still very muchsit in who you want to be and be
proud of the accomplishmentsyou've had without being
overreaching, and still carryhumility without also looking at
other people for affirmation. Ithink
Kim Bolourtchi (04:04):
that's such a good realization. And I will say
this, I think a lot of us have atendency to be people pleasing.
And how you define that can bedifferent. Absolutely like I
would never have said I was apeople pleaser, right? Nor have
I, however, if I'm being honestand I look back to my early
career, I'm not sure I canseparate the idea of being a
(04:25):
people pleaser from somebody whowanted everybody's respect and
approval, right, right? And sowe think of people pleasing as
like, Oh, I'm going to doeverything to make everybody
comfortable and feel good in onesituation, I'll make myself
small if it makes you feelbetter about yourself, but it
can also be where I want you tolike me and respect me and think
(04:47):
highly of me. So I'm going to bethe version of myself I need to
be in any situation so that Iget that reaction from you, and
that is a version of peoplepleasing, and I very much was
guilty of that. That in mycareer, and, like, not even just
early in my career, I thinkthat's something I still
struggle with sometimes. Youknow, when I started speaking
(05:08):
and got advice about who Ineeded to be to do well in
professional speaking, you know,even then I had that moment
again, of like, oh, who do Ineed to be on stage? Right? And
I don't think we talk about thisenough, and how hard it is to
absorb all the information weget about who we have to be and
(05:31):
the impact it has on us, and thetendency to shrink 100%
Samantha Bolourtchi (05:35):
but I think there's a fine line between, you
know, seeking out a positiveamount of respect from your
colleagues. I don't think that'sabnormal. I think that that's
very much normal and a part ofour human condition, and at the
same time, not backpedaling ontoyourself so that that respect
outweighs your personal respect,and it's something I've had to
deal with a lot in in gradschool and in the professional
(05:56):
community. Also, I think youmake a good point. Well,
Kim Bolourtchi (05:59):
I fundamentally believe that when we are being
ourself, truly ourselves, andnot shrinking at all, but in
fact, shining like like, beingour biggest, biggest self, that
that is when we will command therespect that we deserve and
desire from the people who aremeant to see us, respect us, be
(06:20):
drawn to us. I think when we'remorphing ourself into some other
version, we might get quote,respect or attention from
people, but we're not beingreal. So it's a watered down
version, right? And that neverfeels good. I was just gonna
Samantha Bolourtchi (06:34):
say it doesn't feel good at all. I
mean, I'm sitting here thankfulas can be studying at an Ivy
League, one of the ivy leaguesin the United States, and the
imposter syndrome is real. Andthen you think about what kind
of respect Do you want toreceive from your colleagues and
your professors and your peers?
And it can be really difficult.
I've had multiple conversationswith my mom after class, you
Kim Bolourtchi (06:54):
mean me, yes,
Samantha Bolourtchi (06:57):
about how shitty it feels to put yourself
in a position where you feellike you need to check the
accolades because everyonearound you is doing it, or, you
know, trying to catch up whenyou're in your own space, and
you should just hold your powerand just be you don't try to
shape yourself for for whatfeels good to other people,
(07:19):
right? And
Kim Bolourtchi (07:20):
I think it's hard, right, because our
institutions are built around alot of messages that tell you,
this is what is successful andthis is what is admirable. And
so people spend all of this timetrying to be that version, and
often at the expense ofyourself, absolutely but it
doesn't feel good when you tryto be
Samantha Bolourtchi (07:39):
someone else. No, definitely not. Or to
encourage others to to kind ofput on a face for the betterment
of others. You know, I justdon't think that that is
Kim Bolourtchi (07:48):
helpful. Yeah, I remember when I was practicing
law, there was this woman that Iworked with, and everyone loved
her. She was so adorable, andshe had this southern accent,
and people ate out of her palm.
They loved her, and she justwould have this way about her
that was so Southern and sweetand, you know, y'all and so I
decided, and I did not get thesame reaction from people,
(08:10):
right? I'm very direct. I'mvery, you know, what you see is
what you get. But I watched herhave this influence over people,
and I was like, I need to bemore like her. She's really got
this figured out. So for a week,I adopted a southern accent.
This is so embarrassing, but Idid, and I like, walked around
trying to be much softer andsweeter and y'all and, and, oh
(08:32):
my god, it so did not work. Itwas hilarious, right? But I
actually believed that if I weremore like her, that people would
like me better, because Icouldn't see that people liked
me. For me, I just kept seeingthe way other people were being
responded to, and it alwaysseemed better than what I had,
right? And I think we do thisall the time, absolutely,
(08:54):
because I can look at you andsee your your superpowers are
nothing like that of yourcolleagues and classmates, and
yet it's difficult for you tosee,
Samantha Bolourtchi (09:05):
yeah, oh my gosh. We go back and forth about
this once a day, at least. It'sso incredibly hard to see the
strengths you bring to thetable. It's so much easier to
see weaknesses. I'm the numberone self sabotager. I see all
the things that I could be doingbetter, and rarely ever
recognize the things that areactually needed and very much
there, and I'm thankful to havea support system that shows me
(09:26):
that it's hard, though it'sextremely
Kim Bolourtchi (09:28):
hard, because even with a support system,
which I believe you've had, andyou can correct me absolutely,
the messages are so strong fromthe outside world, and they
start so Early in our lives,that even with really good
support, it's difficult tounwire those Absolutely it is,
and I think that's an importantthing for people listening to
understand this isn't somethingyou think your way out of with
(09:50):
one thought, right? Or one greatconversation, like a lot of
people, this is
Samantha Bolourtchi (09:54):
why she brings the philosophers to the
table. What you said, it's notjust one thing. It's not just
one thought.
Kim Bolourtchi (10:01):
Like crazy, but, but it's, you know, even as a as
a parent, we want to tell ourkids, right? Like I want to tell
you, you're so amazing, you'reso incredible, you have all
these gifts. Why can't you seeyourself the way I see you, and
I've spent your whole lifetrying to empower you to see
yourself that way, butultimately, you have to see
yourself that way, I can'tconvince you, right? And I'm
(10:22):
saying this because there's somany parents out there listening
who want their kids right to seethemselves through the lens the
parents see them through. Andit's not possible to do that
other than to continue makingthe suggestion. Ultimately, we
each have to figure out how tounwire the conditioning from
wherever it comes, right, right?
So as you sit here and you thinkabout it has shrinking ever
(10:44):
served you?
Samantha Bolourtchi (10:49):
I don't think it has. I've really
thought about this, becausethere have been a lot of moments
in my life where I feel likeI've taken a back seat. And I
actually wrote about this in agraduate class I took where we
had to do self evaluations, andwhat did we take out of the
class, who we were as a student,and I realized I shrunk at the
(11:10):
beginning of the class. And thishappened three months ago, four
months ago. I mean, this is asrecent as it gets, and it's not
something I would normally everdo. I'm very talkative. I'm very
outgoing in class. I love tofacilitate discussion, and I
took a back seat for like, fourweeks of the semester, which is
something I never do. I shrunkimmediately. I think one I just
(11:30):
there are a bunch of differentfactors at play, but I realized
that, looking back at the class,it didn't serve me at all. I
didn't need to take such a backseat and listen. I think there's
a way that we can incorporateall the different things that we
want to get out of somethingwhile still being respectful in
whatever manner it is, withouthaving to
Kim Bolourtchi (11:48):
shrink. Why did you shrink? Like, if you're
being really honest, yeah,
Samantha Bolourtchi (11:53):
no, no, really honestly, it's a multi
faceted question, because Ithink there's such a difference
of educational hierarchy andprivilege and access.
Kim Bolourtchi (12:05):
Just why you personally shrunk? Yeah, no, I
personally shrunk
Samantha Bolourtchi (12:09):
because of that. I was sitting in a class
as a white presenting woman with10 other students who have
historically excludedbackgrounds, have immigrant
families who've grown up withexperiences that I will never
understand and have never hadthe platform to share them, and
so it came from a place ofrespect that I shrunk, but I'm
(12:32):
looking back now, and I didn'tnecessarily need to, to still
give that space to my fellowcolleagues, and it was I was
appreciative to realize that atthe end, and I'm thankful to
have the awareness of somethinglike that, and I didn't
necessarily need to shrink inthat
Kim Bolourtchi (12:47):
moment. And so, just to give some context, this
was a diversity kind of class,sort of,
Samantha Bolourtchi (12:52):
yeah, it was the critical pedagogy of
violent curriculum. It's a fullyloaded class. It's very
difficult. It was a PhD class. Iwas a little bird swimming
upstream in this one, but Iwalked away learning more than I
think I ever have out of theclass. So I'm so thankful to my
colleagues and my
Kim Bolourtchi (13:08):
professor. I love that point, actually that
and it's such a good example,right? Because you you didn't
shrink because you felt like youneeded to shrink yourself to not
be so big. You shrunk to givespace, right? You shrunk to be
respectful, right? And I thinkit's a really interesting point,
(13:28):
because a lot of times when wethink about shrinking, we shrink
because we don't feel like webelong. We shrink because we
don't feel like we're goodenough. We shrink because we
don't want to be seen, right? Imean, I can tell you, I have
struggled with this thought of Iwant to be seen, but I also
don't want to be seen in thosemoments when I feel vulnerable.
And I think a lot of us shrinkbecause of that, but I love this
(13:49):
idea of shrinking out ofrespect, because there's that
too. I mean, there's so manyreasons why we choose to make
ourselves small rather than showup with the full breadth of who
we are, and even in that, youknow, when it is so well
intended, it still didn't serveyou, no, not
Samantha Bolourtch (14:09):
necessarily, just because then it made me
realize, like, who am I? Andthat reflection kind of made me
realize like, well, am Idownplaying my integrity of my
own humanness and who I am as aresult of my respect, because I
don't think that needs to happeneither. I think I can still show
up and be me and give thatrespect. And this is just one
(14:31):
example. It was just the firstthat came to mind while I was
sitting here, I guess, to say,like the fine line, there's two
sides to everything, and peoplepleasing and shrinking. Yeah, I
think if we recognize how smallwe shrink for others and in
different circumstances, willshow us the difference between
people pleasing and shrinkingfor the wrong reasons, maybe
versus maybe shrinking for theright ones.
Kim Bolourtchi (14:54):
Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure there is a
right reason to shrink. Yeah,I'm gonna challenge you on. That
Samantha Bolourtchi (15:01):
when I use shrink, I guess I will say that
I don't necessarily mean thatour body language and our
personal identity needs tobecome smaller. I think I use
shrink in an effort to pullattention to the things that are
bigger around us, and they'reactually so small as it already
is, I don't think we need tocrawl inward so much is just to
(15:22):
recognize that we have theinnate inherent ability as human
beings to stretch super big andexpand our mind super wide, or
kind of fold onto ourselves andlike self sabotage.
Kim Bolourtchi (15:36):
But you just said to shrink for the right
reasons? Yeah. So I want to, Iwant to challenge you. Is there
a right reason to shrink?
Samantha Bolourtchi (15:42):
I think I just gave you one at the
beginning of my class. I mean,it didn't necessarily serve me
for four weeks to take a backseat, but I would do it again.
You would. I would absolutelybecause I think creating the
space to recognize that Iinherently did shrink myself a
little bit to create this space,but
Kim Bolourtchi (15:59):
you just said you didn't need to,
Samantha Bolourtchi (16:03):
maybe not for myself, if we're talking
about me, but for the peoplearound me. I felt like I did,
and you'd have to ask them. Butthere's two sides. I'm not just
thinking about me when I shrink,same with people pleasing. I'm
thinking about me like, oh,fuck, I gotta make myself
smaller. But I'm also thinkingabout the effect of what that's
gonna do for my environment?
Yeah,
Kim Bolourtchi (16:22):
and see, this is, I guess we, we disagree on
this point, which is totallyhealthy. And I, I would say that
shrinking, even when you thinkyou're shrinking for the benefit
of someone else, actually neverserves anyone. Because we live
in an abundant world wherethere's space for everyone, and
(16:44):
the idea that there's only somuch oxygen in a room, or
there's only so much space, issort of a scarcity mindset,
right? And so it's like, well,if, if I take up too much space,
then there isn't space for you.
If I come in here, none. Iunderstand where you're coming
from. And like, like, like youdon't want to come in and and
talk a whole lot or, you know,but, but there's a difference
(17:05):
between shrinking yourself to beinvisible or to not be seen, and
just using restraint to be agood listener or to be
thoughtful. But like, you canstill be a great listener and be
thoughtful in your full presenceto bring all of who you are to
every situation, right? And so Ithink, at least from my
(17:25):
perspective, I feel like myadvice would be to never, ever
shrink, unless you are in bodilyharm and you need to shrink
because your life is in danger,and you literally need to be
invisible because you're aboutto be, you know, hurt, you know,
like, like, that kind ofsituation. But I think that, I
(17:48):
think that this is what's sodangerous about the idea of of
and why we shrink. It's like,well, if I'm too big, if I take
and this, this is, I'mpassionate about this, because
this is a message I got as alittle girl, Kim, you're too
much. You girl, you talk toomuch. You take up too much
space, right? You are way morethan we can handle. Like, just,
(18:09):
can you be quiet and sit downand let someone else talk for a
while? And so I was, like,always thinking, do I want too
much? Do I take up too muchroom? Do I talk too much? Do I,
you know, am I too much? And thereality is, I'm not. I just
might be too much for them,right? I might be too much for
you know, you want less. Go findless, sure. Um, and so I think
that there's space for everybodyto be as big as they are.
Samantha Bolourtchi (18:35):
I agree. I don't disagree at all. I don't,
I don't necessarily think thatwe need to shrink. The Phyllis,
the philosopher and me verymuch, argues. The difference,
which is, I would almost arguewe need to go through a
shrinking process to actuallysee why we don't need it and why
(18:56):
it hurts us, absolutely. And soI guess my counter to you is,
let's have it. Oh, yeah, sithere and do this all day. I
think my counter to you is isbasically just that point is, I
don't necessarily preach it, andI wouldn't say that that needs
to happen. I think that we allcan show there's, like you said,
oxygen in a room. I agree thatthere's more than enough oxygen
for all human beings of alldifferent walks and purposes. I
(19:19):
think my perspective was, you'reright, it didn't serve Me, me,
and I was also thinking, as apeople pleaser, about what it
would do for my environment. Andso that did factor into my
decision to shrink, and that'scorrect when I say I'd go back
and do it again, the same way Iwould, but with a different
mindset. After having thisconversation, I think going
back, if I did it again, I wouldlook at it as kind of the
(19:42):
argument I just made, which is,you need to do it to see it. And
I'm not going to walk off thisphone call and say, everybody
needs to shrink right now so youcan see the bigger picture.
Because that's that's verySocratic of me, and I'm not
going to do that. I do agreewith you. I don't think we need
to shrink. I do believe we canshow up it. Exactly the way that
we are and still carry thatlevel of respect and sensibility
(20:05):
and acknowledgement andkindness, yeah? And it's
definitely something we need towork toward more,
Kim Bolourtchi (20:11):
yeah. And you know, I love the point that you
just made, that we do need to gothrough it, and I think it's an
important thing to recognize,right? Because I'm talking about
it from a place of I've done it.
I've shrunk myself, you know,many, many times throughout my
life, to fit in, to beacceptable, to be palatable, to
be right, you know, to not betoo big. And it's only having
(20:34):
done that so many times thatI've come out on the other side,
realizing that I'm at my bestand, by the way, in the most
service to everyone around meand everything that I do when
I'm at my biggest best self,right, like there's nobody who
benefits ever right from mebeing anything other than my
biggest me,
Samantha Bolourtchi (20:56):
absolutely, and I just want to preface to
I'm in full agreement with thatas your daughter and fellow
human being who lives under thesame roof, I don't want to
preface that in any way of theSocratic format of having to go
through it to see it prompts youto think in a way that that
behavior is somehow justified,that, like we need to put
(21:18):
ourselves through that for anyreason, or we are put through
that, and it's justified. It'snot. Nobody should ever be told
to do something a certain way.
But it's life, and it is life.
It is life 100%
Kim Bolourtchi (21:29):
and it's a reality that people do feel it,
because it's our conditioning.
Samantha Bolourtchi (21:32):
Absolutely it is. Shit happens, fair
enough. Shit doesn't like youknow what? That's true,
Kim Bolourtchi (21:37):
you know absolutely. And I don't think, I
don't think we beat ourselves upfor it, but I think we can make
a different choice and and so,um,
Samantha Bolourtchi (21:47):
one of the questions I have before we wrap
up is, what helps us unedit,what helps us not be small, what
helps us be as big as we can be?
I mean, what are some thingsthat help you? Oh, my gosh. As a
grad student, like I said atwhere I am specifically, I think
one of the biggest things is notwalking through my day to day in
a mode, a mindset of like, Ineed to impress, my need to be a
(22:10):
certain way. New York isunforgiving as it is, and I
learned that quickly. And Ithink that you can be very much
who you are without having tocheck boxes, I learned that
quickly that I'm inherentlyloved for who I am, genuinely
through and through, not becauseof my accolades or not because
what I'm doing on the weekend orhow I spend my free time, but
who I am when I show up, and howfriendly I am and just just how
(22:33):
thankful I am to be here and tobe human and to celebrate I
don't know, the little things Ilove that
Kim Bolourtchi (22:41):
so much spread it around. Yeah, I think that's
really, really beautiful.
Thanks. I appreciate that. Yeah,I think another thing I would
add to that is just recognizingthat you have nothing to prove
ever to anyone, right? Andthat's something that I've told
myself over and over, is that Iactually am inherently worthy
just by being me? Yeah, you are.
(23:04):
And I have nothing to prove.
Samantha Bolourtchi (23:05):
You don't right? And I love that mindset.
I think we get caught sometimesin the fallacy of like, Oh, if I
don't have goals, if I don'thave something to prove, then
what's my purpose? And I thinkyou're looking at your purpose
when you look in the mirror.
It's a total gift to be here.
Enjoy it. I don't think that youneed to consistently be driven
by something to get there.
You'll get there. Yeah, you mayjust not see it yet. I love it,
amazing. Thank you so much forhaving me. I really loved this
(23:28):
conversation, likewise, and
Kim Bolourtchi (23:33):
so proud of you and I love that we can disagree
Samantha Bolourtchi (23:36):
Absolutely.
I welcome, I very much welcomeit as a philosopher in higher ed
at the moment, dipping my footin all facets of human
interaction. I'm very much. I'mon the I'm ready.
Kim Bolourtchi (23:49):
I'm gonna challenge you as you go into
your next next semester. Not Imean, I know you just finished,
so you're not thinking aboutyour next semester, but when you
do, boy am I. I want tochallenge you to not ever make
yourself small for anyone else'sbenefit. Ever heard that? What
do you think?
Samantha Bolourtchi (24:09):
Accept? I heartily accept.
Kim Bolourtchi (24:13):
I love it.
Amazing. Thanks, Samma Iappreciate it. Thank you all for
being with us today. You've beenlistening to get unruly. Please
send your thoughts, yourquestions. I'd love to hear from
you, and I'll see you next time.
This is kimberlotchi, your host.
I am so grateful to each of youfor being here. If you loved
this episode and you thinksomeone else needs to hear it,
(24:36):
please pass it on. Also, if youhave any questions or comments
or anything you want to chatabout, please send me an email
at kim@kimbolourtchi.com, orjust reach out to me and connect
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conversations, answeringquestions and just connecting.
So don't hesitate. Great if thatfeels like something you'd love
(24:59):
to do. And last, feel free toleave us a review or pop a note
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hear from you in any way thatworks until next time. Stay
unruly friends. You.
Welcome back to Get Unruly. Today's episode is
personal. I talk a lot aboutwhat it means to lead boldly, to
stop performing, stop hiding andstop editing ourselves just to
fit in. But this isn't just aleadership problem, it's
actually a human one, and todayI brought someone who's watched
(00:21):
me wrestle with this and who'slearning to navigate it in her
own way. My daughter, Samantha,is here, and we're going to talk
about the ways we both editedourselves and what happens when
we finally stop. Let's get intoit. Sam, I'm really excited
about this conversation. I'm soexcited you're here today.
Samantha Bolourtchi (00:41):
I'm so excited to be here. This is good
one. So you've grown
Kim Bolourtchi (00:45):
up watching me shift in my own voice,
especially over the past fewyears. But I also know that
you've had your own experiencewith feeling like you had to
shrink or be palatable. Let'stalk about that. And I know I'm
putting you on the spot, becauseI don't script any of my
episodes. Can you think of atime when you felt like you had
(01:06):
to make yourself smaller thanyou actually are to fit in?
Yeah,
Samantha Bolourtchi (01:10):
absolutely.
My first example when I was inhigh school. I had moved out of
the district and I was startingcross country at another high
school, it was something to tryand get involved, meet new
people. I didn't have any tiesto the community the way that
the feeder Middle School had. Igot really good at cross country
really quickly. I put my heartand soul into it. It's just part
(01:30):
of who I am. And as a result, itseemed to isolate me. I thought
that the better I got and thebetter our team got, the more
close we would get. And instead,it had the opposite effect. When
people would hear my name overthe loudspeaker, there'd be
groans, it would make meliterally shrink in my seat. And
it got to the point where Ididn't feel like I wanted to
bring any attention to anyaccolades of the Cross Country
(01:55):
department at all, which is ashame, because it's a sport
that's not very popular, and wewere doing very well that
season, but that was difficult,yeah, and
Kim Bolourtchi (02:04):
I imagine it not just to the Cross Country
department, but you probablydidn't want to bring any
attention to yourself.
Samantha Bolourtchi (02:10):
No, not at all. I remember sitting in
class, I knew what was coming.
After a good weekend, I won theClayton Invitational one year.
It was something I'd alwayswanted to do. I was so excited
to like, rep the brand of myhigh school, and I felt very
proud of that accomplishment,and nobody else seemed to share
that with me. And that wasdifficult, because I thought
maybe I had a backward mindset.
(02:31):
So I toned everything down, Ipretty much turned it all off,
and I kind of put my head down.
And that was that, well,
Kim Bolourtchi (02:38):
thank you for sharing that. Of course, that
story, I feel like every one ofus has a story like that in some
way, where we were doingsomething that really, we could
be really proud of, and thereaction from other people is
the opposite of what you'dexpect. It's negative in a way
that you can't anticipate, andit's very, very jarring. So now
(03:01):
you're 24 you're a graduatestudent at Columbia. You've
grown up a lot since that time.
And that was what like 15 yearold, 16 year old. You Yes. So
what does 24 year old you seewhen you look back at that
situation and you remember howyou shrunk?
Samantha Bolourtchi (03:22):
I think it's a beautiful reflection
insofar as to recognize that I'mquite a people pleaser, and I
don't necessarily think thatneeds to be a bad thing, but I
really inherently took hold ofthe reactions of my peers and
the people around me and sawthat as a sign that I was doing
something wrong, whereas now I'm24 and I regularly walk through
(03:44):
the streets of Manhattan with,excuse my French, but don't
really give a fuck. Type ofmentality, even as a people
pleaser, you can still very muchsit in who you want to be and be
proud of the accomplishmentsyou've had without being
overreaching, and still carryhumility without also looking at
other people for affirmation. Ithink
Kim Bolourtchi (04:04):
that's such a good realization. And I will say
this, I think a lot of us have atendency to be people pleasing.
And how you define that can bedifferent. Absolutely like I
would never have said I was apeople pleaser, right? Nor have
I, however, if I'm being honestand I look back to my early
career, I'm not sure I canseparate the idea of being a
(04:25):
people pleaser from somebody whowanted everybody's respect and
approval, right, right? And sowe think of people pleasing as
like, Oh, I'm going to doeverything to make everybody
comfortable and feel good in onesituation, I'll make myself
small if it makes you feelbetter about yourself, but it
can also be where I want you tolike me and respect me and think
(04:47):
highly of me. So I'm going to bethe version of myself I need to
be in any situation so that Iget that reaction from you, and
that is a version of peoplepleasing, and I very much was
guilty of that. That in mycareer, and, like, not even just
early in my career, I thinkthat's something I still
struggle with sometimes. Youknow, when I started speaking
(05:08):
and got advice about who Ineeded to be to do well in
professional speaking, you know,even then I had that moment
again, of like, oh, who do Ineed to be on stage? Right? And
I don't think we talk about thisenough, and how hard it is to
absorb all the information weget about who we have to be and
(05:31):
the impact it has on us, and thetendency to shrink 100%
Samantha Bolourtchi (05:35):
but I think there's a fine line between, you
know, seeking out a positiveamount of respect from your
colleagues. I don't think that'sabnormal. I think that that's
very much normal and a part ofour human condition, and at the
same time, not backpedaling ontoyourself so that that respect
outweighs your personal respect,and it's something I've had to
deal with a lot in in gradschool and in the professional
(05:56):
community. Also, I think youmake a good point. Well,
Kim Bolourtchi (05:59):
I fundamentally believe that when we are being
ourself, truly ourselves, andnot shrinking at all, but in
fact, shining like like, beingour biggest, biggest self, that
that is when we will command therespect that we deserve and
desire from the people who aremeant to see us, respect us, be
(06:20):
drawn to us. I think when we'remorphing ourself into some other
version, we might get quote,respect or attention from
people, but we're not beingreal. So it's a watered down
version, right? And that neverfeels good. I was just gonna
Samantha Bolourtchi (06:34):
say it doesn't feel good at all. I
mean, I'm sitting here thankfulas can be studying at an Ivy
League, one of the ivy leaguesin the United States, and the
imposter syndrome is real. Andthen you think about what kind
of respect Do you want toreceive from your colleagues and
your professors and your peers?
And it can be really difficult.
I've had multiple conversationswith my mom after class, you
Kim Bolourtchi (06:54):
mean me, yes,
Samantha Bolourtchi (06:57):
about how shitty it feels to put yourself
in a position where you feellike you need to check the
accolades because everyonearound you is doing it, or, you
know, trying to catch up whenyou're in your own space, and
you should just hold your powerand just be you don't try to
shape yourself for for whatfeels good to other people,
(07:19):
right? And
Kim Bolourtchi (07:20):
I think it's hard, right, because our
institutions are built around alot of messages that tell you,
this is what is successful andthis is what is admirable. And
so people spend all of this timetrying to be that version, and
often at the expense ofyourself, absolutely but it
doesn't feel good when you tryto be
Samantha Bolourtchi (07:39):
someone else. No, definitely not. Or to
encourage others to to kind ofput on a face for the betterment
of others. You know, I justdon't think that that is
Kim Bolourtchi (07:48):
helpful. Yeah, I remember when I was practicing
law, there was this woman that Iworked with, and everyone loved
her. She was so adorable, andshe had this southern accent,
and people ate out of her palm.
They loved her, and she justwould have this way about her
that was so Southern and sweetand, you know, y'all and so I
decided, and I did not get thesame reaction from people,
(08:10):
right? I'm very direct. I'mvery, you know, what you see is
what you get. But I watched herhave this influence over people,
and I was like, I need to bemore like her. She's really got
this figured out. So for a week,I adopted a southern accent.
This is so embarrassing, but Idid, and I like, walked around
trying to be much softer andsweeter and y'all and, and, oh
(08:32):
my god, it so did not work. Itwas hilarious, right? But I
actually believed that if I weremore like her, that people would
like me better, because Icouldn't see that people liked
me. For me, I just kept seeingthe way other people were being
responded to, and it alwaysseemed better than what I had,
right? And I think we do thisall the time, absolutely,
(08:54):
because I can look at you andsee your your superpowers are
nothing like that of yourcolleagues and classmates, and
yet it's difficult for you tosee,
Samantha Bolourtchi (09:05):
yeah, oh my gosh. We go back and forth about
this once a day, at least. It'sso incredibly hard to see the
strengths you bring to thetable. It's so much easier to
see weaknesses. I'm the numberone self sabotager. I see all
the things that I could be doingbetter, and rarely ever
recognize the things that areactually needed and very much
there, and I'm thankful to havea support system that shows me
(09:26):
that it's hard, though it'sextremely
Kim Bolourtchi (09:28):
hard, because even with a support system,
which I believe you've had, andyou can correct me absolutely,
the messages are so strong fromthe outside world, and they
start so Early in our lives,that even with really good
support, it's difficult tounwire those Absolutely it is,
and I think that's an importantthing for people listening to
understand this isn't somethingyou think your way out of with
(09:50):
one thought, right? Or one greatconversation, like a lot of
people, this is
Samantha Bolourtchi (09:54):
why she brings the philosophers to the
table. What you said, it's notjust one thing. It's not just
one thought.
Kim Bolourtchi (10:01):
Like crazy, but, but it's, you know, even as a as
a parent, we want to tell ourkids, right? Like I want to tell
you, you're so amazing, you'reso incredible, you have all
these gifts. Why can't you seeyourself the way I see you, and
I've spent your whole lifetrying to empower you to see
yourself that way, butultimately, you have to see
yourself that way, I can'tconvince you, right? And I'm
(10:22):
saying this because there's somany parents out there listening
who want their kids right to seethemselves through the lens the
parents see them through. Andit's not possible to do that
other than to continue makingthe suggestion. Ultimately, we
each have to figure out how tounwire the conditioning from
wherever it comes, right, right?
So as you sit here and you thinkabout it has shrinking ever
(10:44):
served you?
Samantha Bolourtchi (10:49):
I don't think it has. I've really
thought about this, becausethere have been a lot of moments
in my life where I feel likeI've taken a back seat. And I
actually wrote about this in agraduate class I took where we
had to do self evaluations, andwhat did we take out of the
class, who we were as a student,and I realized I shrunk at the
(11:10):
beginning of the class. And thishappened three months ago, four
months ago. I mean, this is asrecent as it gets, and it's not
something I would normally everdo. I'm very talkative. I'm very
outgoing in class. I love tofacilitate discussion, and I
took a back seat for like, fourweeks of the semester, which is
something I never do. I shrunkimmediately. I think one I just
(11:30):
there are a bunch of differentfactors at play, but I realized
that, looking back at the class,it didn't serve me at all. I
didn't need to take such a backseat and listen. I think there's
a way that we can incorporateall the different things that we
want to get out of somethingwhile still being respectful in
whatever manner it is, withouthaving to
Kim Bolourtchi (11:48):
shrink. Why did you shrink? Like, if you're
being really honest, yeah,
Samantha Bolourtchi (11:53):
no, no, really honestly, it's a multi
faceted question, because Ithink there's such a difference
of educational hierarchy andprivilege and access.
Kim Bolourtchi (12:05):
Just why you personally shrunk? Yeah, no, I
personally shrunk
Samantha Bolourtchi (12:09):
because of that. I was sitting in a class
as a white presenting woman with10 other students who have
historically excludedbackgrounds, have immigrant
families who've grown up withexperiences that I will never
understand and have never hadthe platform to share them, and
so it came from a place ofrespect that I shrunk, but I'm
(12:32):
looking back now, and I didn'tnecessarily need to, to still
give that space to my fellowcolleagues, and it was I was
appreciative to realize that atthe end, and I'm thankful to
have the awareness of somethinglike that, and I didn't
necessarily need to shrink inthat
Kim Bolourtchi (12:47):
moment. And so, just to give some context, this
was a diversity kind of class,sort of,
Samantha Bolourtchi (12:52):
yeah, it was the critical pedagogy of
violent curriculum. It's a fullyloaded class. It's very
difficult. It was a PhD class. Iwas a little bird swimming
upstream in this one, but Iwalked away learning more than I
think I ever have out of theclass. So I'm so thankful to my
colleagues and my
Kim Bolourtchi (13:08):
professor. I love that point, actually that
and it's such a good example,right? Because you you didn't
shrink because you felt like youneeded to shrink yourself to not
be so big. You shrunk to givespace, right? You shrunk to be
respectful, right? And I thinkit's a really interesting point,
(13:28):
because a lot of times when wethink about shrinking, we shrink
because we don't feel like webelong. We shrink because we
don't feel like we're goodenough. We shrink because we
don't want to be seen, right? Imean, I can tell you, I have
struggled with this thought of Iwant to be seen, but I also
don't want to be seen in thosemoments when I feel vulnerable.
And I think a lot of us shrinkbecause of that, but I love this
(13:49):
idea of shrinking out ofrespect, because there's that
too. I mean, there's so manyreasons why we choose to make
ourselves small rather than showup with the full breadth of who
we are, and even in that, youknow, when it is so well
intended, it still didn't serveyou, no, not
Samantha Bolourtch (14:09):
necessarily, just because then it made me
realize, like, who am I? Andthat reflection kind of made me
realize like, well, am Idownplaying my integrity of my
own humanness and who I am as aresult of my respect, because I
don't think that needs to happeneither. I think I can still show
up and be me and give thatrespect. And this is just one
(14:31):
example. It was just the firstthat came to mind while I was
sitting here, I guess, to say,like the fine line, there's two
sides to everything, and peoplepleasing and shrinking. Yeah, I
think if we recognize how smallwe shrink for others and in
different circumstances, willshow us the difference between
people pleasing and shrinkingfor the wrong reasons, maybe
versus maybe shrinking for theright ones.
Kim Bolourtchi (14:54):
Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm not sure there is a
right reason to shrink. Yeah,I'm gonna challenge you on. That
Samantha Bolourtchi (15:01):
when I use shrink, I guess I will say that
I don't necessarily mean thatour body language and our
personal identity needs tobecome smaller. I think I use
shrink in an effort to pullattention to the things that are
bigger around us, and they'reactually so small as it already
is, I don't think we need tocrawl inward so much is just to
(15:22):
recognize that we have theinnate inherent ability as human
beings to stretch super big andexpand our mind super wide, or
kind of fold onto ourselves andlike self sabotage.
Kim Bolourtchi (15:36):
But you just said to shrink for the right
reasons? Yeah. So I want to, Iwant to challenge you. Is there
a right reason to shrink?
Samantha Bolourtchi (15:42):
I think I just gave you one at the
beginning of my class. I mean,it didn't necessarily serve me
for four weeks to take a backseat, but I would do it again.
You would. I would absolutelybecause I think creating the
space to recognize that Iinherently did shrink myself a
little bit to create this space,but
Kim Bolourtchi (15:59):
you just said you didn't need to,
Samantha Bolourtchi (16:03):
maybe not for myself, if we're talking
about me, but for the peoplearound me. I felt like I did,
and you'd have to ask them. Butthere's two sides. I'm not just
thinking about me when I shrink,same with people pleasing. I'm
thinking about me like, oh,fuck, I gotta make myself
smaller. But I'm also thinkingabout the effect of what that's
gonna do for my environment?
Yeah,
Kim Bolourtchi (16:22):
and see, this is, I guess we, we disagree on
this point, which is totallyhealthy. And I, I would say that
shrinking, even when you thinkyou're shrinking for the benefit
of someone else, actually neverserves anyone. Because we live
in an abundant world wherethere's space for everyone, and
(16:44):
the idea that there's only somuch oxygen in a room, or
there's only so much space, issort of a scarcity mindset,
right? And so it's like, well,if, if I take up too much space,
then there isn't space for you.
If I come in here, none. Iunderstand where you're coming
from. And like, like, like youdon't want to come in and and
talk a whole lot or, you know,but, but there's a difference
(17:05):
between shrinking yourself to beinvisible or to not be seen, and
just using restraint to be agood listener or to be
thoughtful. But like, you canstill be a great listener and be
thoughtful in your full presenceto bring all of who you are to
every situation, right? And so Ithink, at least from my
(17:25):
perspective, I feel like myadvice would be to never, ever
shrink, unless you are in bodilyharm and you need to shrink
because your life is in danger,and you literally need to be
invisible because you're aboutto be, you know, hurt, you know,
like, like, that kind ofsituation. But I think that, I
(17:48):
think that this is what's sodangerous about the idea of of
and why we shrink. It's like,well, if I'm too big, if I take
and this, this is, I'mpassionate about this, because
this is a message I got as alittle girl, Kim, you're too
much. You girl, you talk toomuch. You take up too much
space, right? You are way morethan we can handle. Like, just,
(18:09):
can you be quiet and sit downand let someone else talk for a
while? And so I was, like,always thinking, do I want too
much? Do I take up too muchroom? Do I talk too much? Do I,
you know, am I too much? And thereality is, I'm not. I just
might be too much for them,right? I might be too much for
you know, you want less. Go findless, sure. Um, and so I think
that there's space for everybodyto be as big as they are.
Samantha Bolourtchi (18:35):
I agree. I don't disagree at all. I don't,
I don't necessarily think thatwe need to shrink. The Phyllis,
the philosopher and me verymuch, argues. The difference,
which is, I would almost arguewe need to go through a
shrinking process to actuallysee why we don't need it and why
(18:56):
it hurts us, absolutely. And soI guess my counter to you is,
let's have it. Oh, yeah, sithere and do this all day. I
think my counter to you is isbasically just that point is, I
don't necessarily preach it, andI wouldn't say that that needs
to happen. I think that we allcan show there's, like you said,
oxygen in a room. I agree thatthere's more than enough oxygen
for all human beings of alldifferent walks and purposes. I
(19:19):
think my perspective was, you'reright, it didn't serve Me, me,
and I was also thinking, as apeople pleaser, about what it
would do for my environment. Andso that did factor into my
decision to shrink, and that'scorrect when I say I'd go back
and do it again, the same way Iwould, but with a different
mindset. After having thisconversation, I think going
back, if I did it again, I wouldlook at it as kind of the
(19:42):
argument I just made, which is,you need to do it to see it. And
I'm not going to walk off thisphone call and say, everybody
needs to shrink right now so youcan see the bigger picture.
Because that's that's verySocratic of me, and I'm not
going to do that. I do agreewith you. I don't think we need
to shrink. I do believe we canshow up it. Exactly the way that
we are and still carry thatlevel of respect and sensibility
(20:05):
and acknowledgement andkindness, yeah? And it's
definitely something we need towork toward more,
Kim Bolourtchi (20:11):
yeah. And you know, I love the point that you
just made, that we do need to gothrough it, and I think it's an
important thing to recognize,right? Because I'm talking about
it from a place of I've done it.
I've shrunk myself, you know,many, many times throughout my
life, to fit in, to beacceptable, to be palatable, to
be right, you know, to not betoo big. And it's only having
(20:34):
done that so many times thatI've come out on the other side,
realizing that I'm at my bestand, by the way, in the most
service to everyone around meand everything that I do when
I'm at my biggest best self,right, like there's nobody who
benefits ever right from mebeing anything other than my
biggest me,
Samantha Bolourtchi (20:56):
absolutely, and I just want to preface to
I'm in full agreement with thatas your daughter and fellow
human being who lives under thesame roof, I don't want to
preface that in any way of theSocratic format of having to go
through it to see it prompts youto think in a way that that
behavior is somehow justified,that, like we need to put
(21:18):
ourselves through that for anyreason, or we are put through
that, and it's justified. It'snot. Nobody should ever be told
to do something a certain way.
But it's life, and it is life.
It is life 100%
Kim Bolourtchi (21:29):
and it's a reality that people do feel it,
because it's our conditioning.
Samantha Bolourtchi (21:32):
Absolutely it is. Shit happens, fair
enough. Shit doesn't like youknow what? That's true,
Kim Bolourtchi (21:37):
you know absolutely. And I don't think, I
don't think we beat ourselves upfor it, but I think we can make
a different choice and and so,um,
Samantha Bolourtchi (21:47):
one of the questions I have before we wrap
up is, what helps us unedit,what helps us not be small, what
helps us be as big as we can be?
I mean, what are some thingsthat help you? Oh, my gosh. As a
grad student, like I said atwhere I am specifically, I think
one of the biggest things is notwalking through my day to day in
a mode, a mindset of like, Ineed to impress, my need to be a
(22:10):
certain way. New York isunforgiving as it is, and I
learned that quickly. And Ithink that you can be very much
who you are without having tocheck boxes, I learned that
quickly that I'm inherentlyloved for who I am, genuinely
through and through, not becauseof my accolades or not because
what I'm doing on the weekend orhow I spend my free time, but
who I am when I show up, and howfriendly I am and just just how
(22:33):
thankful I am to be here and tobe human and to celebrate I
don't know, the little things Ilove that
Kim Bolourtchi (22:41):
so much spread it around. Yeah, I think that's
really, really beautiful.
Thanks. I appreciate that. Yeah,I think another thing I would
add to that is just recognizingthat you have nothing to prove
ever to anyone, right? Andthat's something that I've told
myself over and over, is that Iactually am inherently worthy
just by being me? Yeah, you are.
(23:04):
And I have nothing to prove.
Samantha Bolourtchi (23:05):
You don't right? And I love that mindset.
I think we get caught sometimesin the fallacy of like, Oh, if I
don't have goals, if I don'thave something to prove, then
what's my purpose? And I thinkyou're looking at your purpose
when you look in the mirror.
It's a total gift to be here.
Enjoy it. I don't think that youneed to consistently be driven
by something to get there.
You'll get there. Yeah, you mayjust not see it yet. I love it,
amazing. Thank you so much forhaving me. I really loved this
(23:28):
conversation, likewise, and
Kim Bolourtchi (23:33):
so proud of you and I love that we can disagree
Samantha Bolourtchi (23:36):
Absolutely.
I welcome, I very much welcomeit as a philosopher in higher ed
at the moment, dipping my footin all facets of human
interaction. I'm very much. I'mon the I'm ready.
Kim Bolourtchi (23:49):
I'm gonna challenge you as you go into
your next next semester. Not Imean, I know you just finished,
so you're not thinking aboutyour next semester, but when you
do, boy am I. I want tochallenge you to not ever make
yourself small for anyone else'sbenefit. Ever heard that? What
do you think?
Samantha Bolourtchi (24:09):
Accept? I heartily accept.
Kim Bolourtchi (24:13):
I love it.
Amazing. Thanks, Samma Iappreciate it. Thank you all for
being with us today. You've beenlistening to get unruly. Please
send your thoughts, yourquestions. I'd love to hear from
you, and I'll see you next time.
This is kimberlotchi, your host.
I am so grateful to each of youfor being here. If you loved
this episode and you thinksomeone else needs to hear it,
(24:36):
please pass it on. Also, if youhave any questions or comments
or anything you want to chatabout, please send me an email
at kim@kimbolourtchi.com, orjust reach out to me and connect
on LinkedIn. I am genuinelyinterested in having
conversations, answeringquestions and just connecting.
So don't hesitate. Great if thatfeels like something you'd love
(24:59):
to do. And last, feel free toleave us a review or pop a note
or a text into the podcastitself. I'm pretty sure the
technology lets me get thosemessages, but I would love to
hear from you in any way thatworks until next time. Stay
unruly friends. You.
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