September 14, 2025 • 25 mins
In this powerful and thought-provoking episode, Kim Bolourtchi and Chris West dive deep into what it truly means to live authentically and put yourself first—even when it means going against social expectations or risking disappointment.
Through candid stories and practical wisdom, Chris reveals the secret to exceptional personal branding and the transformative benefits of radical honesty and self-prioritization. Discover why saying “no” can be the most loving choice, and how embracing your unique “zone of genius” and daring to be strategically unruly can lead to deeper fulfillment, stronger relationships, and a more courageous, honest life.
Tune in and reflect on your own boundaries—what would change if you put yourself first?
CLICK HERE to learn more about Chris and Video Narrative.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kim Bolourtchi (00:00):
Welcome to get unruly. I'm so glad you're here.
Today's guest is Chris West.
Chris is the founder of videonarrative, a brand design firm
that specializes in growingspeaking businesses through
brand clarity, Speaker demoreels and website design, before
working with leading speakersaround the world, Chris
developed his approach forstories in his graduate work in
(00:21):
narrative therapy. When nottelling stories, you'll find
Chris near the ocean orsearching for a road he's never
been down. I am so excited forthis conversation, and I know
you are going to love it, Chris,welcome to get unruly. I'm so
excited to have you as a guesttoday, and I already know we're
(00:42):
going to jump into so manythings that are of value to the
listeners. So welcome. I amexcited to jump in with you.
Chris West (00:50):
I'm so excited for this conversation as well. I
think we're going to go to somepretty interesting places.
Kim Bolourtchi (00:56):
I I know that we are and I want to just jump
right in. So one of the thingsthat is so fascinating about you
and the work that you get to dois you're actually the creative
visionary behind some of thebiggest speakers that are out
there, and you're so modestabout it. But the truth is,
(01:16):
anytime there's, like, anincredible video that comes out,
a speaking reel that comes out,you're usually the person who's
done it for a really highprofile person. And one of the
things I'm, I'm so curiousabout, is people come to you and
they they want you to tell theirstory. They want you to, you
know, put them out there in thevery best way. How often do they
(01:36):
come ready to leave it all outthere?
Chris West (01:42):
I would say, probably very rarely are any of
us ever ready to leave it allout there, right? Yes, so yeah.
So usually it's, it's, that's,that's definitely a, let's
position me in the best lightpossible, right? But there is an
authenticity to every personthat if we can get to the root
of it, it is the thing that willjump off the out of the video
(02:06):
the most to people, yeah, butit's hard to find sometimes. And
I would say that most of us,myself, probably included, I'm
getting way more comfortable inthe world to do it, but I think
putting ourselves fully outthere is, I think, the most
vulnerable thing we can do, andsomething that we don't want to
do very often.
Kim Bolourtchi (02:26):
I would completely agree, and I know I
struggled with that in doing myown video. You know, dance, not
dance. Do I Do I tell that partof the story, or do I not? And I
think one of the reasons I'm,I'm so curious to talk about
this, is because when we talkabout positioning ourselves,
right? I think a lot of wherethat comes from are the messages
we get from the world or thepeople who are advising us about
(02:48):
what makes us marketable or whatmakes us palatable. And I don't
always think that's greatadvice. What do you think?
Chris West (02:57):
Well, I think that the more important question to
ask and answer to really hone inon is it's really around what
problem you're best at helpingsolve. And people hate to be
limited to one thing or to getinto really specific things, but
it's actually the secret toeverything, and I'll share a
(03:20):
story with you in the early on,I was in graduate school,
school, you know, just paying myway through graduate school,
studying, actually, narrativetherapy, how our brains process
narratives and story and doingvideo work right to pay my way
through graduate school, I hadno intention of starting a
company eventually, You know,being a brand style person and a
(03:41):
speaker asked me to do a videoand told me the story of what
happened with Coors Light in2005 as a company. And most
people don't know this story,but in 2005 Coors Light was the
most generic beer brand thereis. I mean, there was nothing
unique about it. There was, itwas just a Coors Light on the
can. That was it. And there'scommercials you can watch from
(04:04):
this time where you could justpush play and take the can out
of it and put anothercompetitor's can in. And the
commercial wouldn't stay thesame, because it was kind of
about partying and things likethat. And they knew they had a
problem, and so they gottogether and they asked their
ideal clients, what do theywant? And males 21 to 25 gave
(04:24):
them a list of all the thingsthey wanted to light beer, and
of all the things taken, are allthe things that they could the
top 10 list. The only two thingsthat weren't taken were cheap
and cold. They said, We're notgoing to be cheap. So then they
asked themselves, can we be thecoldest? And I think this is the
answer to the question that formost people is most people are
so afraid of deciding they'regoing to be known for one thing,
(04:46):
especially the most authenticthing to them. And I think that
when you have the courage tosay, of all the things I could
choose, what lights me up themost. And an example is someone.
Um, I actually just shared alittle bit about today on
LinkedIn, who, who speaks aboutcompassion, and another guy
named Shola Richards that I canthink of, who speaks about
(05:09):
kindness. I remember the day wewere in. I was meeting him for
the first time. He's like, Iknow this is probably not going
to be very, you know, bookable,but I will tell you the thing
that I want to speak about themost is kindness. And yeah, and
yet, when we built the storyaround it, and his story in the
center of the video is aboutcommitting suicide, an attempted
(05:31):
suicide, right? So many peoplesaid, leave that out. It's going
to trigger too many things. It'sgoing to be too vulnerable, it's
going to be too much. But it wasboth him saying, I want to do
this, which is about kindness,and I experienced such bad
bullying all my life growing up,including in the workplace, to
the point where I thought, ifthis is always going to be the
(05:52):
case, I might as well just gothat. Then instead, he made a
decision to do thingsdifferently. And so it is, what
is the heart, the core, of whatyou want to speak about. What's
the center of it? And if it'sgot no business case, that's
okay make a business case. Butso many people bend mold try to,
like, you know, work off theedges, rather than just being
(06:15):
true to what they want to do,including, I think, is a bird.
Example, is you? You love thistopic about being unruly,
strategically and really, andit's not the most like you could
have chosen a much more bookabletopic
Kim Bolourtchi (06:27):
for sure, absolutely,
Chris West (06:30):
but this is the core of you, yes, and including the
fact that you're a dancer in itwas a huge risk and a huge thing
we talked about.
Kim Bolourtchi (06:39):
Absolutely. I love the examples. I love the
examples that you've given, andalso the insight into picking
one thing because you're soright. I think the human brain
loves options, right? We lovethe idea of of, well, you know,
the more options I have, themore possibility then that
(07:00):
someone is going to like me, ormore people are going to like
me. And when we say I need topick just one thing, or I need
to really, you know, figure outwhat the thing is, it suddenly
feels like, well, what if nobodylikes that? Or what if nobody
wants that? I know that that wassomething I struggled with. You
know, when I really leaned intoto my framework was, well, this
(07:21):
just might be way too strangefor people, right? And
ultimately, it was. If it is, itis because this is what I stand
for. This is what I've livedthrough and want to share. But
like the conviction that youneed to be able to put that into
the world, you know, once you'vesort of invested in building
something is, it's not for thefaint of heart. And there are a
(07:42):
lot of people telling you not todo that. To your point, you
know, they're saying Just, just,in fact, you know, a lot of
advice I was given early on waspick something really, you know,
that's mainstream, get your getyourself in there, and then you
can be who you're really, youknow, meant to be. Just, just
find your way in first. And thatis the complete opposite way
that anybody should do anything,in my opinion, absolutely.
Chris West (08:06):
And we can see story after story and story of this
being the case, but it doesn'tever make it any less vulnerable
to do. And that's thedifference. Is that this is
going to take tremendouscourage. And what's so
interesting with the work that Ido is because all of my work is
personal branding. Everyone Iwork with has had an incredible
career, and then they go tobrand themselves. And for some
(08:31):
reason, everything that theyknew that they were so sure of
is no longer working. You know,I can't tell you how many times
this has happened. Someone hasleft a company that they scale
to hundreds of millions ofdollars. Sometimes personally,
you know the CEO of a company,they're like, Yeah, during my
tenure, they scaled three 50million, wow. But then they go
to to position themselves, andit's so much easier to be the
(08:56):
face of a company that it is tobe the face of you. It's such a
vulnerable thing, and nowthey're not putting they're not
rejecting the company, they'renot going a different direction.
They're rejecting you. Yeah,right. And then one of the
reasons I work really well withthought leaders and professional
speakers is why I only work withthis group, is I I see the
people who are ready to changethe world. They're the people
(09:19):
who want the microphone, theywant the stage, and they want to
say, hey, we can do thingsdifferently. And yet, usually,
their motivation comes fromsomething that happened in their
childhood that was such avulnerable, difficult thing,
that every time the they go adifferent direction or whatever,
it's like a wound getting pulledopen again, and that's a very
(09:42):
difficult place to be, and as aresult, most people end up
playing it safe. A great, greatexample that I love, though, is
that a client who's become agood friend. His name is Ozan
VAROL. He told me, I want towrite this book about our soul
and our spirit and and like thething that was. Present at birth
(10:02):
for all of us, which is, that'sthe definition of our genius,
right? And he had just written abook that was like, buy the
book. It was like, how to thinklike a rocket scientist. It was
for businesses. Had done verywell. It was all these things.
And the next book he wanted towrite was so far away from that.
And like he said, I don't thinkmy publisher is going to be open
to it. I don't really know ifanyone's going to even like this
(10:24):
book like I don't, but I feellike I have to get it out. It's
the thing that's calling to me.
You know, at one point in themiddle of his book, the book
wrote a poem to him. I He justcouldn't stop typing. And the
book, in the middle of this bookjust is a poem to the reader
from the book. And this is theopposite of the business books
he'd been writing. And yet thatbook performed so much better
(10:46):
because it touched people on acore level. And I will tell you,
I've gotten to read parts ofyour new manuscript, and that's
the way I experience your book.
Kim, I really do. It's like,that's how it feels, it feels so
real and from your heart thatit's going to touch many
people's hearts.
Kim Bolourtchi (11:05):
Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited about that,
that, but it's, it's that samefeeling, right, when we're just
kind of trusting what's, what'scoming through, and kind of
wanting to go into the world,which, again, this is not how
we're taught. It's supposed tohappen. It's like you're given
this. This is the path, this iswhat you're supposed to do. But
when you just sort of let itorganically happen, amazing
(11:25):
things happen. And the personyou were just describing who
wrote that book, the fact thathe was able to write this really
strategic business book and thenwrite this soulful, creative
book that just speaks to theheart shows like a fully
integrated person, right? Likebeing able to fully integrate
all the gifts and talents, whichis pretty unruly. Most people
are told, pick a lane, stay inthe lane. If you're doing well
(11:47):
in the lane, that's your lane.
And you know, one of the thingsthat I love to encourage is this
idea of you don't have just alane, you've got a gazillion
lanes, and you're meant for somuch more than what the world
wants to tell you you need todo. And I think that's that's
one of the things I love so muchabout your work, is that you
find a way to pull people acrossthose lanes. Sometimes, I think
(12:09):
without even them realizing it,I know, with me, I had no idea
what my video was going to looklike, or what that work was
going to end up being, andeveryone who saw it was like, oh
my god, it's you like. That isthe essence of you, and you
capture that in people. Whatallows you to do that so
beautifully?
Chris West (12:34):
I do think we all have our zone of genius, right?
We do have that essence of whatit feels like just to be us, and
that is what's so beautiful. Andso often we compare our zone of
genius to other zones of genius.
And instead of just fullyembracing ours, right? And
certainly, my zone of genius hasbeen since I was little. Every
person I meet, I get sort of animpression of them, but I have
(12:56):
the ability also, then toimmediately turn it into a, you
know, a product, a service, avideo, a something, a website
that will book, get them booked,or get them chosen among others.
And that certainly is, I think,the zone of genius. But I think
the second part is, then Icultivated it over, you know,
now, 1314, years of just everysingle day doing that over and
(13:21):
over. And then the last part isI just constantly remind this,
remind myself of this over andover. I did this yesterday. Be
humble. I put out a video toshare a video that's very
different. And I told theclient, from the beginning, this
is super different. You askedfor a very different video. A
lot of people aren't going toget it right away. And he put it
out there, and a lot of peoplewere like, You shouldn't do that
(13:44):
in the opening. Do somethingdifferent. You should solve this
business problem. It's a littlebit too off the but one of the
things I did was I said, youknow, I first thought I had in
my mind was I told you they weregoing to say that and but, you
know, my ego is like, all thethings. And I just watched my
ego, sort of like, are you done?
(14:05):
And then, and then I say, okay,what are all the things I could
learn from every bit of thatfeedback, and which is really
applicable and which can be letgo? And so I think it's that
combination of working in thezone of genius, whatever is your
zone of genius, and thenbuilding skills and mastery
around it, but then the third isjust staying so I say to myself
every single day, like, it'sthat learner's mindset, like,
(14:26):
what new thing can I do? I don'thave this all figured out, and
so let's just stay open. Andstay open, because someone
else's zone of genius is goingto help me see something I can't
see right now. And it's thecombination where most people
get to that third version of thevideo that they see out loud,
out in the world, and theyhaven't seen the first draft or
the second where we took all thefeedback in and shifted it as we
(14:47):
needed to to stay authentic. Butalso
Kim Bolourtchi (14:51):
work. Yeah, I love that. I love the idea of
learners mindset, because youare really a master of what you
do. I mean. That's no BS youare, and the fact that you're
constantly challenging yourselfto stay in that space, I think,
is probably one of the reasonsyou are so good at what you do,
genuinely. I really, I admirethat a lot. So talk to me about
(15:14):
your definition of strategicallyunruly. What does it mean to
you?
Chris West (15:20):
I think the thing that it means most to me is that
I have learned how to put myselffirst in everything, and I had
to remind myself at first how todo this. So I put up around all
of my house, put yourself first,and I have this wonderful home
(15:43):
cleaner who comes every like twoto three weeks, and at first I
was embarrassed of what she wasgonna think of me as she went
around the house and she saw allthese little signs on my
bathroom mirror and other stufflike put yourself first. But if
I were to share the secret tolife for every person on the
planet. It is that when we learnto put ourselves first, everyone
(16:08):
around us can always trust ourYes, can always trust our No,
and we become the mosttrustworthy people. Because
along with putting yourselffirst is this idea of 100%
honesty. There's one book that Ithink is one of those life
changing books in the world.
It's called The Way of integrityby Martha Beck and Oprah calls
(16:29):
Martha her her teacher, hercoach, right? And what's
interesting about decidingyou're going to be honest is we
all think it's a good idea to behonest, but the moment comes
where you don't want to gosomewhere, and you feel bad
about the people you let down ifyou do. And so you put you don't
(16:50):
put yourself. First, you do thething that they would make to
make them happy. And then theydon't get the fullest version of
you there, they get a version ofyou that you're supposed to be
at that place, and the worldwould change overnight if
everyone on the planet decidedthey were gonna put themselves
(17:11):
first and be 100% honest.
Certainly, people would leavejobs they're not happy in.
They'd leave relationshipsthey're not happy in. Lot of
things would, you know, breakapart, but for the best, because
every person would then knowinstantly, Oh, that wasn't the
right fit for them. You know, Idon't want one of my team
members to go on working at mycompany six months after they
(17:34):
knew they didn't want to workthere anymore. I wouldn't want
to be in a relationship with apartner who didn't want to be
there, but secretly didn't wantto hurt me, right, right? And so
deep in our hearts, we all wantpeople to be honest, but the
moment it comes time to putourselves first, we think it's
selfish. You know, my world hasgotten pretty small, but pretty
(17:54):
incredible, where everyone in myworld says what they mean, and I
say what I mean. And if that'snot the case, it ends up just
not working out anymore. It'slike at one point in our lives,
we have to get to a place wherewe've fallen so deeply in love
with ourselves and trust and areso trustworthy with our words,
(18:16):
that if people are moving andgoing where we are going, then
we're going, right? And ifpeople decide, hey, I'm I'm
staying where I am, and you go,you interact with them, and it
doesn't feel good, yeah, youdon't keep hurting yourself out
of love for them. It's the leastloving thing to do, and the
people who judge you for it arethose who you probably don't
(18:40):
want to be around. They alwayshave a victim mindset. They
always have this is happening tome and you will because we are
all energy beings, and we justcan't see with our physical
eyes. But when you're aroundthose kinds of people, your
energy will drop. It'll comedown. But you know what it's
like when you're around someonewho's full it's they're real,
(19:00):
they're honest, they're there'slike, a kind of a pull up.
You're like, wow, I just lovebeing you know, when I talk with
you, and I think whenever youand I talk, it's like, totally
raises. What if your entire lifewas around people like that? You
know, that's what's possible,but we just have to be able to
make some courageous decisionsaround those who don't, and
sometimes those are familymembers, and some people hearing
(19:22):
it don't want to hear it, whichis okay, but that's the
secondary part that puttingyourself first is in every area
of your life, and every area ofyour life will get better. And
sometimes it doesn't happenright away. Sometimes it happens
three years later, and thepeople thank you for it later,
like, Hey, I was really hurt atfirst when you said I, you know,
(19:44):
you didn't want to be around meat the time because I didn't
feel good. But then, after I gotover the feeling pissed about
it, I thought I wonder what theywere saying, and it got me
motivated. The kindest thing wecan do for everybody in our
lives is to be 100% honest. Andto put ourselves first, and it
will have a ripple effect toeveryone you meet.
Kim Bolourtchi (20:05):
I love that, and I also know that's really hard
for people to hear. There's,there's, there's a truth to
that, that even the truth ofthat is hard for people to hear,
right and and we all kind of getthere in the in the time that
we're ready to hear it and readyto do it. But I would just say,
you know, even if, even if,people just start in small ways
(20:26):
of just just being more honest,instead of making up an excuse,
even if it's just No, ratherthan no followed by a white lie,
yeah, right, even if it's just Ican't, because you can't
energetically do it without anexplanation that is not
truthful, that's better thanbeing dishonest or agreeing to
(20:49):
something that you you knowyou're not able to do like like
you don't have to go all the wayin at the beginning if you don't
feel comfortable, but, but Ireally love the idea of, you
know, really thinking about whatis, what is good, what feels
good, what feels right, andhonoring that, and then just
being really honest about that.
Chris West (21:07):
And one of the things that I think is worth
just just touching on a littlebit more so that we can feel
this out, is when someone asksus to do something, or someone
wants to maybe work with us, andit doesn't feel good, you know,
for us to work with them. Thebig fear we have is
disappointing them and howthey're going to feel when we
(21:28):
say no, yep. So our worry andour fear is I don't want to
disappoint them and I don't wantthem to feel bad. What we're
doing in that is two verydamaging things. The first is,
we're not being loving toourselves. And at the end of the
day, I promise you're the onlyone you'll ever have. If you
(21:50):
can't have that, that honestywith yourself, you're not
trustworthy other people. And sofirst, if you're like, don't
want to do it, but you will putyourself second to do it for
someone else, not out of love,like we talked about, like
there's a difference between,hey, this isn't my favorite
thing, but I love you, andyou're I'm crazy about you, and
for sure, I will do that, right?
It's I don't feel necessarilythat I want to do it, but I
(22:11):
don't want to disappoint thisperson or whatever. And so one,
we're not honoring ourselves,which is one of the most
damaging things we can do. Thesecond thing is, without being
truthful to that person, we areactually doing them a disservice
rather than a kindness. And soif we're hurting two people at
(22:33):
once, then suddenly that feelingof I don't want to disappoint
them is so diminished that youcan do it more and more often.
And so it's a simple question.
Every time someone asks you todo something, every time you're
about to begin something, do Iwant to do this? And if the
answer is not, is, is not a hellyes or yes, because I love this
(22:56):
person and it means a lot to meto do something for them, then
the answer should be no. And itgets easier and easier and
easier as you go. And life getsbetter and better and better
Kim Bolourtchi (23:06):
it does. And it creates capacity for more of the
things that you love. Totally.
If you say yes to things youdon't want, you just get more of
the things you don't want, andthen you don't have space for
those amazing things that comeanyway. So I always look at it
as you know, when someone askedme to do something, and I used
to be the queen of saying yes,because I could do it, not
because I wanted to do it right,which is very different. But
(23:26):
when you're you really have acompass, which is, do I really
want to am I really excited todo this? Or because I love
somebody and I'm excited to doit for them, that's a hell yes.
Otherwise it's a no. Then you'reonly doing those things that
are, you know, absolute yeses.
You have so much more space forjust the yeses and the nose.
(23:47):
They're not, they're not yours,so they're a hell yes to someone
else. That's the beautiful thingabout our world, right? There's
so many of us. We have so manydifferent talents. I don't have
to do the nose because there'ssomebody else who might know
they're going to be a hell yes,too.
Chris West (24:01):
So it's it's daring, but it'll free you 100%
Kim Bolourtchi (24:09):
I think we've solved the world's problems
today, at least a handful ofthem. What do you think?
Chris West (24:14):
Super easy to talk about, harder to do, but it gets
easier and easier.
Kim Bolourtchi (24:18):
Thank you so much for being on the show, for
sharing your wisdom. It has beenan absolute pleasure. So good to
be with you. Kim, thanks forlistening to get unruly. If you
loved this episode, it would beawesome if you would leave a
quick review wherever youlistened, as it helps other bold
leaders find the show. If youwant more, the radical clarity
(24:40):
quiz takes like 90 seconds, andit'll tell you the rule that's
running your life in thebackground is available in the
show notes and also early accessto my upcoming book strategic
unruliness is linked there too.
The book's about breaking theinvisible rules that hold
leaders back and building what'snext with radical clarity. And
confidence. So if you want earlyaccess to the ridiculously low
(25:02):
price that it's going to be whenit launches, hop on that list.
Also, until next time, stayunruly.
Welcome to get unruly. I'm so glad you're here.
Today's guest is Chris West.
Chris is the founder of videonarrative, a brand design firm
that specializes in growingspeaking businesses through
brand clarity, Speaker demoreels and website design, before
working with leading speakersaround the world, Chris
developed his approach forstories in his graduate work in
(00:21):
narrative therapy. When nottelling stories, you'll find
Chris near the ocean orsearching for a road he's never
been down. I am so excited forthis conversation, and I know
you are going to love it, Chris,welcome to get unruly. I'm so
excited to have you as a guesttoday, and I already know we're
(00:42):
going to jump into so manythings that are of value to the
listeners. So welcome. I amexcited to jump in with you.
Chris West (00:50):
I'm so excited for this conversation as well. I
think we're going to go to somepretty interesting places.
Kim Bolourtchi (00:56):
I I know that we are and I want to just jump
right in. So one of the thingsthat is so fascinating about you
and the work that you get to dois you're actually the creative
visionary behind some of thebiggest speakers that are out
there, and you're so modestabout it. But the truth is,
(01:16):
anytime there's, like, anincredible video that comes out,
a speaking reel that comes out,you're usually the person who's
done it for a really highprofile person. And one of the
things I'm, I'm so curiousabout, is people come to you and
they they want you to tell theirstory. They want you to, you
know, put them out there in thevery best way. How often do they
(01:36):
come ready to leave it all outthere?
Chris West (01:42):
I would say, probably very rarely are any of
us ever ready to leave it allout there, right? Yes, so yeah.
So usually it's, it's, that's,that's definitely a, let's
position me in the best lightpossible, right? But there is an
authenticity to every personthat if we can get to the root
of it, it is the thing that willjump off the out of the video
(02:06):
the most to people, yeah, butit's hard to find sometimes. And
I would say that most of us,myself, probably included, I'm
getting way more comfortable inthe world to do it, but I think
putting ourselves fully outthere is, I think, the most
vulnerable thing we can do, andsomething that we don't want to
do very often.
Kim Bolourtchi (02:26):
I would completely agree, and I know I
struggled with that in doing myown video. You know, dance, not
dance. Do I Do I tell that partof the story, or do I not? And I
think one of the reasons I'm,I'm so curious to talk about
this, is because when we talkabout positioning ourselves,
right? I think a lot of wherethat comes from are the messages
we get from the world or thepeople who are advising us about
(02:48):
what makes us marketable or whatmakes us palatable. And I don't
always think that's greatadvice. What do you think?
Chris West (02:57):
Well, I think that the more important question to
ask and answer to really hone inon is it's really around what
problem you're best at helpingsolve. And people hate to be
limited to one thing or to getinto really specific things, but
it's actually the secret toeverything, and I'll share a
(03:20):
story with you in the early on,I was in graduate school,
school, you know, just paying myway through graduate school,
studying, actually, narrativetherapy, how our brains process
narratives and story and doingvideo work right to pay my way
through graduate school, I hadno intention of starting a
company eventually, You know,being a brand style person and a
(03:41):
speaker asked me to do a videoand told me the story of what
happened with Coors Light in2005 as a company. And most
people don't know this story,but in 2005 Coors Light was the
most generic beer brand thereis. I mean, there was nothing
unique about it. There was, itwas just a Coors Light on the
can. That was it. And there'scommercials you can watch from
(04:04):
this time where you could justpush play and take the can out
of it and put anothercompetitor's can in. And the
commercial wouldn't stay thesame, because it was kind of
about partying and things likethat. And they knew they had a
problem, and so they gottogether and they asked their
ideal clients, what do theywant? And males 21 to 25 gave
(04:24):
them a list of all the thingsthey wanted to light beer, and
of all the things taken, are allthe things that they could the
top 10 list. The only two thingsthat weren't taken were cheap
and cold. They said, We're notgoing to be cheap. So then they
asked themselves, can we be thecoldest? And I think this is the
answer to the question that formost people is most people are
so afraid of deciding they'regoing to be known for one thing,
(04:46):
especially the most authenticthing to them. And I think that
when you have the courage tosay, of all the things I could
choose, what lights me up themost. And an example is someone.
Um, I actually just shared alittle bit about today on
LinkedIn, who, who speaks aboutcompassion, and another guy
named Shola Richards that I canthink of, who speaks about
(05:09):
kindness. I remember the day wewere in. I was meeting him for
the first time. He's like, Iknow this is probably not going
to be very, you know, bookable,but I will tell you the thing
that I want to speak about themost is kindness. And yeah, and
yet, when we built the storyaround it, and his story in the
center of the video is aboutcommitting suicide, an attempted
(05:31):
suicide, right? So many peoplesaid, leave that out. It's going
to trigger too many things. It'sgoing to be too vulnerable, it's
going to be too much. But it wasboth him saying, I want to do
this, which is about kindness,and I experienced such bad
bullying all my life growing up,including in the workplace, to
the point where I thought, ifthis is always going to be the
(05:52):
case, I might as well just gothat. Then instead, he made a
decision to do thingsdifferently. And so it is, what
is the heart, the core, of whatyou want to speak about. What's
the center of it? And if it'sgot no business case, that's
okay make a business case. Butso many people bend mold try to,
like, you know, work off theedges, rather than just being
(06:15):
true to what they want to do,including, I think, is a bird.
Example, is you? You love thistopic about being unruly,
strategically and really, andit's not the most like you could
have chosen a much more bookabletopic
Kim Bolourtchi (06:27):
for sure, absolutely,
Chris West (06:30):
but this is the core of you, yes, and including the
fact that you're a dancer in itwas a huge risk and a huge thing
we talked about.
Kim Bolourtchi (06:39):
Absolutely. I love the examples. I love the
examples that you've given, andalso the insight into picking
one thing because you're soright. I think the human brain
loves options, right? We lovethe idea of of, well, you know,
the more options I have, themore possibility then that
(07:00):
someone is going to like me, ormore people are going to like
me. And when we say I need topick just one thing, or I need
to really, you know, figure outwhat the thing is, it suddenly
feels like, well, what if nobodylikes that? Or what if nobody
wants that? I know that that wassomething I struggled with. You
know, when I really leaned intoto my framework was, well, this
(07:21):
just might be way too strangefor people, right? And
ultimately, it was. If it is, itis because this is what I stand
for. This is what I've livedthrough and want to share. But
like the conviction that youneed to be able to put that into
the world, you know, once you'vesort of invested in building
something is, it's not for thefaint of heart. And there are a
(07:42):
lot of people telling you not todo that. To your point, you
know, they're saying Just, just,in fact, you know, a lot of
advice I was given early on waspick something really, you know,
that's mainstream, get your getyourself in there, and then you
can be who you're really, youknow, meant to be. Just, just
find your way in first. And thatis the complete opposite way
that anybody should do anything,in my opinion, absolutely.
Chris West (08:06):
And we can see story after story and story of this
being the case, but it doesn'tever make it any less vulnerable
to do. And that's thedifference. Is that this is
going to take tremendouscourage. And what's so
interesting with the work that Ido is because all of my work is
personal branding. Everyone Iwork with has had an incredible
career, and then they go tobrand themselves. And for some
(08:31):
reason, everything that theyknew that they were so sure of
is no longer working. You know,I can't tell you how many times
this has happened. Someone hasleft a company that they scale
to hundreds of millions ofdollars. Sometimes personally,
you know the CEO of a company,they're like, Yeah, during my
tenure, they scaled three 50million, wow. But then they go
to to position themselves, andit's so much easier to be the
(08:56):
face of a company that it is tobe the face of you. It's such a
vulnerable thing, and nowthey're not putting they're not
rejecting the company, they'renot going a different direction.
They're rejecting you. Yeah,right. And then one of the
reasons I work really well withthought leaders and professional
speakers is why I only work withthis group, is I I see the
people who are ready to changethe world. They're the people
(09:19):
who want the microphone, theywant the stage, and they want to
say, hey, we can do thingsdifferently. And yet, usually,
their motivation comes fromsomething that happened in their
childhood that was such avulnerable, difficult thing,
that every time the they go adifferent direction or whatever,
it's like a wound getting pulledopen again, and that's a very
(09:42):
difficult place to be, and as aresult, most people end up
playing it safe. A great, greatexample that I love, though, is
that a client who's become agood friend. His name is Ozan
VAROL. He told me, I want towrite this book about our soul
and our spirit and and like thething that was. Present at birth
(10:02):
for all of us, which is, that'sthe definition of our genius,
right? And he had just written abook that was like, buy the
book. It was like, how to thinklike a rocket scientist. It was
for businesses. Had done verywell. It was all these things.
And the next book he wanted towrite was so far away from that.
And like he said, I don't thinkmy publisher is going to be open
to it. I don't really know ifanyone's going to even like this
(10:24):
book like I don't, but I feellike I have to get it out. It's
the thing that's calling to me.
You know, at one point in themiddle of his book, the book
wrote a poem to him. I He justcouldn't stop typing. And the
book, in the middle of this bookjust is a poem to the reader
from the book. And this is theopposite of the business books
he'd been writing. And yet thatbook performed so much better
(10:46):
because it touched people on acore level. And I will tell you,
I've gotten to read parts ofyour new manuscript, and that's
the way I experience your book.
Kim, I really do. It's like,that's how it feels, it feels so
real and from your heart thatit's going to touch many
people's hearts.
Kim Bolourtchi (11:05):
Thank you. Thank you. I'm excited about that,
that, but it's, it's that samefeeling, right, when we're just
kind of trusting what's, what'scoming through, and kind of
wanting to go into the world,which, again, this is not how
we're taught. It's supposed tohappen. It's like you're given
this. This is the path, this iswhat you're supposed to do. But
when you just sort of let itorganically happen, amazing
(11:25):
things happen. And the personyou were just describing who
wrote that book, the fact thathe was able to write this really
strategic business book and thenwrite this soulful, creative
book that just speaks to theheart shows like a fully
integrated person, right? Likebeing able to fully integrate
all the gifts and talents, whichis pretty unruly. Most people
are told, pick a lane, stay inthe lane. If you're doing well
(11:47):
in the lane, that's your lane.
And you know, one of the thingsthat I love to encourage is this
idea of you don't have just alane, you've got a gazillion
lanes, and you're meant for somuch more than what the world
wants to tell you you need todo. And I think that's that's
one of the things I love so muchabout your work, is that you
find a way to pull people acrossthose lanes. Sometimes, I think
(12:09):
without even them realizing it,I know, with me, I had no idea
what my video was going to looklike, or what that work was
going to end up being, andeveryone who saw it was like, oh
my god, it's you like. That isthe essence of you, and you
capture that in people. Whatallows you to do that so
beautifully?
Chris West (12:34):
I do think we all have our zone of genius, right?
We do have that essence of whatit feels like just to be us, and
that is what's so beautiful. Andso often we compare our zone of
genius to other zones of genius.
And instead of just fullyembracing ours, right? And
certainly, my zone of genius hasbeen since I was little. Every
person I meet, I get sort of animpression of them, but I have
(12:56):
the ability also, then toimmediately turn it into a, you
know, a product, a service, avideo, a something, a website
that will book, get them booked,or get them chosen among others.
And that certainly is, I think,the zone of genius. But I think
the second part is, then Icultivated it over, you know,
now, 1314, years of just everysingle day doing that over and
(13:21):
over. And then the last part isI just constantly remind this,
remind myself of this over andover. I did this yesterday. Be
humble. I put out a video toshare a video that's very
different. And I told theclient, from the beginning, this
is super different. You askedfor a very different video. A
lot of people aren't going toget it right away. And he put it
out there, and a lot of peoplewere like, You shouldn't do that
(13:44):
in the opening. Do somethingdifferent. You should solve this
business problem. It's a littlebit too off the but one of the
things I did was I said, youknow, I first thought I had in
my mind was I told you they weregoing to say that and but, you
know, my ego is like, all thethings. And I just watched my
ego, sort of like, are you done?
(14:05):
And then, and then I say, okay,what are all the things I could
learn from every bit of thatfeedback, and which is really
applicable and which can be letgo? And so I think it's that
combination of working in thezone of genius, whatever is your
zone of genius, and thenbuilding skills and mastery
around it, but then the third isjust staying so I say to myself
every single day, like, it'sthat learner's mindset, like,
(14:26):
what new thing can I do? I don'thave this all figured out, and
so let's just stay open. Andstay open, because someone
else's zone of genius is goingto help me see something I can't
see right now. And it's thecombination where most people
get to that third version of thevideo that they see out loud,
out in the world, and theyhaven't seen the first draft or
the second where we took all thefeedback in and shifted it as we
(14:47):
needed to to stay authentic. Butalso
Kim Bolourtchi (14:51):
work. Yeah, I love that. I love the idea of
learners mindset, because youare really a master of what you
do. I mean. That's no BS youare, and the fact that you're
constantly challenging yourselfto stay in that space, I think,
is probably one of the reasonsyou are so good at what you do,
genuinely. I really, I admirethat a lot. So talk to me about
(15:14):
your definition of strategicallyunruly. What does it mean to
you?
Chris West (15:20):
I think the thing that it means most to me is that
I have learned how to put myselffirst in everything, and I had
to remind myself at first how todo this. So I put up around all
of my house, put yourself first,and I have this wonderful home
(15:43):
cleaner who comes every like twoto three weeks, and at first I
was embarrassed of what she wasgonna think of me as she went
around the house and she saw allthese little signs on my
bathroom mirror and other stufflike put yourself first. But if
I were to share the secret tolife for every person on the
planet. It is that when we learnto put ourselves first, everyone
(16:08):
around us can always trust ourYes, can always trust our No,
and we become the mosttrustworthy people. Because
along with putting yourselffirst is this idea of 100%
honesty. There's one book that Ithink is one of those life
changing books in the world.
It's called The Way of integrityby Martha Beck and Oprah calls
(16:29):
Martha her her teacher, hercoach, right? And what's
interesting about decidingyou're going to be honest is we
all think it's a good idea to behonest, but the moment comes
where you don't want to gosomewhere, and you feel bad
about the people you let down ifyou do. And so you put you don't
(16:50):
put yourself. First, you do thething that they would make to
make them happy. And then theydon't get the fullest version of
you there, they get a version ofyou that you're supposed to be
at that place, and the worldwould change overnight if
everyone on the planet decidedthey were gonna put themselves
(17:11):
first and be 100% honest.
Certainly, people would leavejobs they're not happy in.
They'd leave relationshipsthey're not happy in. Lot of
things would, you know, breakapart, but for the best, because
every person would then knowinstantly, Oh, that wasn't the
right fit for them. You know, Idon't want one of my team
members to go on working at mycompany six months after they
(17:34):
knew they didn't want to workthere anymore. I wouldn't want
to be in a relationship with apartner who didn't want to be
there, but secretly didn't wantto hurt me, right, right? And so
deep in our hearts, we all wantpeople to be honest, but the
moment it comes time to putourselves first, we think it's
selfish. You know, my world hasgotten pretty small, but pretty
(17:54):
incredible, where everyone in myworld says what they mean, and I
say what I mean. And if that'snot the case, it ends up just
not working out anymore. It'slike at one point in our lives,
we have to get to a place wherewe've fallen so deeply in love
with ourselves and trust and areso trustworthy with our words,
(18:16):
that if people are moving andgoing where we are going, then
we're going, right? And ifpeople decide, hey, I'm I'm
staying where I am, and you go,you interact with them, and it
doesn't feel good, yeah, youdon't keep hurting yourself out
of love for them. It's the leastloving thing to do, and the
people who judge you for it arethose who you probably don't
(18:40):
want to be around. They alwayshave a victim mindset. They
always have this is happening tome and you will because we are
all energy beings, and we justcan't see with our physical
eyes. But when you're aroundthose kinds of people, your
energy will drop. It'll comedown. But you know what it's
like when you're around someonewho's full it's they're real,
(19:00):
they're honest, they're there'slike, a kind of a pull up.
You're like, wow, I just lovebeing you know, when I talk with
you, and I think whenever youand I talk, it's like, totally
raises. What if your entire lifewas around people like that? You
know, that's what's possible,but we just have to be able to
make some courageous decisionsaround those who don't, and
sometimes those are familymembers, and some people hearing
(19:22):
it don't want to hear it, whichis okay, but that's the
secondary part that puttingyourself first is in every area
of your life, and every area ofyour life will get better. And
sometimes it doesn't happenright away. Sometimes it happens
three years later, and thepeople thank you for it later,
like, Hey, I was really hurt atfirst when you said I, you know,
(19:44):
you didn't want to be around meat the time because I didn't
feel good. But then, after I gotover the feeling pissed about
it, I thought I wonder what theywere saying, and it got me
motivated. The kindest thing wecan do for everybody in our
lives is to be 100% honest. Andto put ourselves first, and it
will have a ripple effect toeveryone you meet.
Kim Bolourtchi (20:05):
I love that, and I also know that's really hard
for people to hear. There's,there's, there's a truth to
that, that even the truth ofthat is hard for people to hear,
right and and we all kind of getthere in the in the time that
we're ready to hear it and readyto do it. But I would just say,
you know, even if, even if,people just start in small ways
(20:26):
of just just being more honest,instead of making up an excuse,
even if it's just No, ratherthan no followed by a white lie,
yeah, right, even if it's just Ican't, because you can't
energetically do it without anexplanation that is not
truthful, that's better thanbeing dishonest or agreeing to
(20:49):
something that you you knowyou're not able to do like like
you don't have to go all the wayin at the beginning if you don't
feel comfortable, but, but Ireally love the idea of, you
know, really thinking about whatis, what is good, what feels
good, what feels right, andhonoring that, and then just
being really honest about that.
Chris West (21:07):
And one of the things that I think is worth
just just touching on a littlebit more so that we can feel
this out, is when someone asksus to do something, or someone
wants to maybe work with us, andit doesn't feel good, you know,
for us to work with them. Thebig fear we have is
disappointing them and howthey're going to feel when we
(21:28):
say no, yep. So our worry andour fear is I don't want to
disappoint them and I don't wantthem to feel bad. What we're
doing in that is two verydamaging things. The first is,
we're not being loving toourselves. And at the end of the
day, I promise you're the onlyone you'll ever have. If you
(21:50):
can't have that, that honestywith yourself, you're not
trustworthy other people. And sofirst, if you're like, don't
want to do it, but you will putyourself second to do it for
someone else, not out of love,like we talked about, like
there's a difference between,hey, this isn't my favorite
thing, but I love you, andyou're I'm crazy about you, and
for sure, I will do that, right?
It's I don't feel necessarilythat I want to do it, but I
(22:11):
don't want to disappoint thisperson or whatever. And so one,
we're not honoring ourselves,which is one of the most
damaging things we can do. Thesecond thing is, without being
truthful to that person, we areactually doing them a disservice
rather than a kindness. And soif we're hurting two people at
(22:33):
once, then suddenly that feelingof I don't want to disappoint
them is so diminished that youcan do it more and more often.
And so it's a simple question.
Every time someone asks you todo something, every time you're
about to begin something, do Iwant to do this? And if the
answer is not, is, is not a hellyes or yes, because I love this
(22:56):
person and it means a lot to meto do something for them, then
the answer should be no. And itgets easier and easier and
easier as you go. And life getsbetter and better and better
Kim Bolourtchi (23:06):
it does. And it creates capacity for more of the
things that you love. Totally.
If you say yes to things youdon't want, you just get more of
the things you don't want, andthen you don't have space for
those amazing things that comeanyway. So I always look at it
as you know, when someone askedme to do something, and I used
to be the queen of saying yes,because I could do it, not
because I wanted to do it right,which is very different. But
(23:26):
when you're you really have acompass, which is, do I really
want to am I really excited todo this? Or because I love
somebody and I'm excited to doit for them, that's a hell yes.
Otherwise it's a no. Then you'reonly doing those things that
are, you know, absolute yeses.
You have so much more space forjust the yeses and the nose.
(23:47):
They're not, they're not yours,so they're a hell yes to someone
else. That's the beautiful thingabout our world, right? There's
so many of us. We have so manydifferent talents. I don't have
to do the nose because there'ssomebody else who might know
they're going to be a hell yes,too.
Chris West (24:01):
So it's it's daring, but it'll free you 100%
Kim Bolourtchi (24:09):
I think we've solved the world's problems
today, at least a handful ofthem. What do you think?
Chris West (24:14):
Super easy to talk about, harder to do, but it gets
easier and easier.
Kim Bolourtchi (24:18):
Thank you so much for being on the show, for
sharing your wisdom. It has beenan absolute pleasure. So good to
be with you. Kim, thanks forlistening to get unruly. If you
loved this episode, it would beawesome if you would leave a
quick review wherever youlistened, as it helps other bold
leaders find the show. If youwant more, the radical clarity
(24:40):
quiz takes like 90 seconds, andit'll tell you the rule that's
running your life in thebackground is available in the
show notes and also early accessto my upcoming book strategic
unruliness is linked there too.
The book's about breaking theinvisible rules that hold
leaders back and building what'snext with radical clarity. And
confidence. So if you want earlyaccess to the ridiculously low
(25:02):
price that it's going to be whenit launches, hop on that list.
Also, until next time, stayunruly.
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