October 20, 2025 • 23 mins
🔥 What if rejection could be your greatest advantage? In this powerful episode, host Kim Bolourtchi sits down with publicity powerhouse and “My Rejection Story” founder Alice Draper, who reveals how re-framing failure and daring to break the rules transformed her life. Discover the hidden stories behind big successes, why rule-breakers might just change the world, and practical strategies for turning adversity into unstoppable momentum. If you’ve ever felt like you just don’t fit the mold—or wondered if your toughest moments could lead to your biggest breakthroughs—don’t miss this honest, inspiring conversation!
🎧 Tune in for authentic stories, laugh-out-loud moments, and actionable wisdom that will have you viewing rejection in a whole new light. Want to learn how embracing your uniqueness can be your superpower? Hit play now!
To connect with Alice:
website: https://hustlingwriters.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alice-m-draper/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/alicedraper/
Podcast: https://hustlingwriters.com/podcast/
Curious what unwelcome rule is running your leadership? Take the 90 second quiz
Save the date: Kim's upcoming book, Strategic Unruliness™ , launches October 21st!!! Get on the launch list
Connect with Kim:
website
LinkedIn
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kim Bolourtchi (00:00):
Welcome to get unruly. Today I have an amazing
(00:03):
guest I'm so excited to have aconversation with. I've got
Alice Draper. Alice is thefounder of the podcast, guesting
company, hustling writers andthe host of the podcast my
rejection story. She's on amission to make publicity
accessible by reframingrejection, Alice has secured her
(00:23):
clients on countless podcasts,including most of the top point
5% shows on her newly launchedpodcast, my rejection story, you
can listen to best sellingauthors like Whitney Goodman,
Jason Van ruler, or guy winchshare how they navigated the
toughest periods of theirpersonal and professional lives,
(00:43):
and how this shaped the successthey now experience today. Her
words can be found in Huff PostBusiness Insider vice and
refinery. 29 Alice loves strongcoffee. We share that by the
way, affordable travel hacks anddeep connections. She detests
small talk, waking up early andunnecessary jargon. Welcome
(01:07):
Alice.
Alice Draper (01:09):
Thank you so much, Kim. I'm so excited for our
conversation today, and thanksfor the wonderful introduction.
Kim Bolourtchi (01:15):
Absolutely so I want to start by talking a
little bit about your podcast,the rejection story, my
rejection story, sorry, I'velistened. It's awesome. It's
real. It's amazing. Whatinspired you to start this
podcast?
Unknown (01:33):
I love this question, and thank you for listening.
It's like the ultimate passionproject of the past year. And a
bit, what inspired me would be acollection of things. It was, it
felt like it came to me like acalling in a walk. It sounds so
dramatic, and it felt verydramatic, where I just realized
the concept, and I was like,it's going to be called. The
name came to me the concept, thetypes of conversations we'd be
(01:57):
having. But it was sparked by aseries of events, some were
noticing that every time Iposted a personal rejection
story in my mailing list or tomy audience, that engagement was
far, far higher than any otherpost I ever put out there. And
so I kind of got the sense thatpeople are starved for these
like, you know, behind thescenes, like, yeah, there is a
(02:19):
success story, but this is alsoeverything that went behind the
scenes. So I would also, like,it was often, like, I would talk
about how many times I gotrejected before I landed the
byline. Because people would belike, Wow, you're writing the
Business Insider. You're writingfor Huff Post. You're doing
these great things. I'd be like,there's a lot else happening
that you're not seeing andyou're just seeing the success
stories. So I Yeah, it was onekind of a response to seeing
(02:42):
what was happening. And thenother things were recognizing, I
just think, like, the nature ofonline media right now is that
we, we see, you know, it's, it'sonly natural to share the
successful parts of things. So,yeah, I don't know. It was like
a bunch of things. It was theconversations I had with clients
as a publicist over the years, Irealized that the best stories
(03:04):
and the stories that reallyconnected were the sort of
trials and tribulations theywent through in order to get to
where they came like arrived,and that those trials and
tribulations actually informedthe meaning behind their work.
So I really wanted to showcasethat, and I felt there was a
gap, and people weren't doingit, and bunch of different
(03:24):
things, and they all cametogether in the podcast.
Kim Bolourtchi (03:27):
I love that so much. You know? I think
especially today, there's somuch emphasis on showing the
shiny, sparkly end result,right? If you look online, you
see so many people who are likeI did this. I've arrived here.
Here's what I've accomplished.
And while that's great, mostpeople don't share the messy,
ugly, icky stuff that all of usgo through on the way to getting
(03:50):
there. And I think it can givean impression to people who
don't have a lot of experiencetalking about their own
failures, or people they cantalk about them to that they're
the only one experiencing it.
And so I really love that you'vecreated this platform of like,
hey, really successful peoplehave failed in order to get
(04:10):
where they are. My question is,you probably have a rejection
story that stands out. I'mguessing right that that is one
that is really prominent for youand in your life. Would you be
willing to share what that
Alice Draper (04:25):
one is? Yeah?
Yeah, of course. I don't know ifit's like a but I feel like
there's something I went throughthat really reframed my
relationship with rejection. Somy my answer may not be as
specific as you asked, but I'mtrying to think of like the big
the big rejection. Yeah, so Iwas very rejection avoidant for
a big portion of my life, upuntil the pandemic 2020 and so I
(04:45):
did everything in my power toavoid rejection. And something
shifted in 2020 which is that Imoved home to look after my
father with dementia. And it it.
Wasn't exactly a rejection, butin some cases like it sort of
accumulated a lot of things. Ifelt like at the time I was not
(05:07):
going to have the career that Iwas working towards, because I
didn't know when this would end.
I was isolated from friends, soI no longer, like, you know,
always was so scared of beingrejected by friends, but now I
was kind of forced intoisolation. I a lot, I guess the
world that I thought that I wasbuilding came crumbling down,
and then I was also processingall that grief. I also lost all
my freelance clients all atonce. I had been working so hard
(05:30):
for some big projects, and theywere killed because of the
pandemic. So like many people'spandemic stories, like a lot
went wrong professionally, andthen my personal life was kind
of falling apart as well. Andthe interesting thing that
happened after, you know, Iprocessed all of that and things
settled down, and were able to Iwas able to my family, and I
(05:51):
were able to hire some care, andmy I sort of went out and live
my life in 2021 is that my, Ihad a much thicker skin. I was
so I wasn't as rejectionsensitive as I had been before,
and so I was like, fearless. Iwas fearlessly building my
business. I was fearlesslymaking new friends and dating
(06:14):
and just everything. Was not asscary as it had been before,
because I realized I couldsurvive hard things. And so,
yeah, that kind of was, like, mykind of informer of like, wow,
life is really, really greatwhen you're not so scared of
getting rejected. Like, amazingthings can happen. And that, I
(06:36):
guess that was, like, a bigstory that made me like formed
part of that mission of why Iwanted to share that with the
world.
Kim Bolourtchi (06:45):
I love that, I mean, I don't love that you went
through that, but I love thatyou had so much adversity and
were able to come out of itknowing like, Hey, this is what
I'm made of. And I alsoappreciate sort of your, you
know, your awareness andadmission that you avoided
rejection for a really longtime. Because I think all of us
(07:06):
do, like, nobody wants to berejected, like, let's be honest,
right? We really don't and so,and I think, you know, a lot of
us are taught growing up thatit's dangerous to be rejected
because it goes to our sense ofself. We feel bad about
ourselves. But if you don't putyourself out there, and you
don't do things that are hardand that are scary, you never
have the opportunity toexperience kind of what happens
(07:28):
on the other side of the thingsthat are hard and scary. And I
always say the best things areon the other side of that, but
you have to be willing to walkthrough it. And it sounds to me
like, you know, like you didthat and you came out really
thriving,
Alice Draper (07:43):
yes, yes, no one wants to go through that. And I
think there's that like, likeyou said, you know, we we would
do, and it's also biologicallywithin us to avoid rejection at
all costs. But I think that wedon't understand that there are
different types of rejectionsthat are more risky than others,
and that we should actually begetting rejected for low risk
things quite regularly. So Soyeah, so I think that knowing
(08:06):
that they're that, that goingthrough some hard things can
come out, like, you can come outon the other side, and it can
turn out, I guess, turn outwell, is, is? Is something that
I want more people to know. AndI it's a tricky one, because I
also don't want to say, like,you know, you have to go through
something really hard, but I dothink that we're just going to
go through hard things like,that's just a part of the human
(08:28):
experience. And I'm very curiousabout what makes someone one
person's adversity, like, whatturns out into a period of
growth, and that they come outof the other side a better
version of themselves, and forother people, it may not look
that way. And that's really theheart of what I want to get to
and get curious about, because Ithink it can go one of two ways,
(08:49):
and I would rather move in thedirection of growth than then be
paid just pure pain andsuffering.
Kim Bolourtchi (08:56):
Yeah, I also, you know, what's funny is, I'm
kicking myself because the waythat I asked you that question
was like, what's the one thing?
And I hate when people ask methat, what's the one thing,
because, like you I don't havejust one thing. It's a series of
experiences. And I think it'simportant to point that out
that, you know, sometimes peoplethink if I haven't gone through
a really big thing, I'm not ableto have the really big growth.
(09:17):
Like the people with the really,you know, big stories are the
ones who have the biggest lives.
And the truth is that it's just,I think, by facing the hard
things that can crop up, justeven in our daily lives, that
still give us the resilience tobe rejected, to reframe our
reality, to do the hard things.
And I really, I love that, thatthat's exactly how you answered
(09:39):
that question. Thank you forthat. That was really good.
Alice Draper (09:43):
Well, well, to your point, Kim, I think there
can be a catalyst. So like, Iwould say, like, for me, my dad,
my dad's dimension, was acatalyst, in some shape or form.
There were a lot of differentthings leading up to it, but
that was the catalyst. And so Idon't mind the question, because
I think there can often be, youknow. Like, and you write about
in your book, The time when yourhusband shared that your dance,
(10:04):
you're a dancer. Like, I feellike that was a catalyst of some
form that sort of opened upthings, even though there
probably were a lot of otherthings happening in the
background or leading up to us.
Yeah,
Kim Bolourtchi (10:14):
absolutely. So I'd love to shift a little bit
and talk about your relationshipwith the rules. Because one of
the things my listeners really,really love hearing about is how
people who are successful andwho are doing really cool things
in the world have navigated therules or or broken them. And one
(10:36):
of the things you've shared withme is your relationship with the
rules from early on, and I don'twant to put words in your mouth,
so let's, let's talk about thisa little bit.
Alice Draper (10:45):
Yeah, yeah. So for those listening when, when Kim
and I connected before, I spokeabout how I unintentionally was
a rule breaker from a very youngage. And so it's interesting.
Now I'm framing like I was veryrejection avoidant. I feel like
I wasn't breaking rules onpurpose. I just couldn't I just
wasn't very good at followingthe rules of school systems and
(11:06):
like a university system. So Iwas always in trouble for being
late. I was in trouble for beingmessy. I was in trouble for not
like, writing between the linesand not following the
instructions exactly as they'remeant to be followed. And so I
was this natural rule break. Andthen I do kind of wonder if,
like being being told that therewere a lot of things wrong with
(11:28):
me, which is a very commonexperience for people with ADHD.
I think, like William Dodsonsaid that people ADHD experience
something like 20 or something1000 more negative comments by
the time they're 12 than otherchildren. I wonder if that made
me less like, like, open togetting rejected in other areas
of my life, because I was like,I don't want more negative
comments. I don't know theanswer to that, but yeah, I
(11:51):
naturally was a bit of a rulebreaker, and I always thought
that this was like a thorn in myside, something that was gonna
really hold me back and stop mefrom doing well in life. I feel
like that was the message that Iwas getting told from
institutions, schools and stuffand then,
Kim Bolourtchi (12:10):
and this was because you did not follow the
rules in school, like you had ahard time doing what they wanted
you to do in the traditionalschool setting. I just want to
be really clear for everybodyabout this, because there's so
many people out there, andobviously the kids aren't
listening to this podcast, butthere are a lot of parents out
there, right who still have kidsin systems. They're saying
you're, you know, your kids toospirited, your kid doesn't
(12:33):
follow the rules, your kiddoesn't write between the lines.
Your kid is too energetic, toocreative, not following the
rules. So I really, really wantto identify. This is the thing
you were criticized for, right?
Alice Draper (12:44):
Yes, daydreaming, daydreaming a lot. You know,
there wasthe word potential was used a
lot with me. So it was like, youknow, Alice has such great
potential. I can remember mygrade six teacher discussing my
results and my results wereokay. I luckily just did. I
always did, like, kind of aboveaverage in school. But she was,
like, discussing my results withmy mom, and she was and I was
(13:04):
there, and she was like, youknow, these results are fine,
but Alice has the potential tobe one of the top students. She
could be the top students inthis class. Like, she could be
getting 90% across the grade.
And so I had this idea, like,I'm just like, I have all this
potential, and I just can't seemto get it together to listen in
(13:25):
class, and I can't seem to gettogether to do what all the
other top students are doing.
And I would like set theseresolutions and be like, this is
the year I'm going to do it.
I've got all my notebooks forevery subject, and this year I'm
going to really sit and listento the teacher. And then it just
never happened. So, yeah, itwas, it was not intentional, but
(13:45):
very much being told I was kindof not a rule follower in the
school system. And I thoughtthat this was going to be my
greatest weakness in life, Iguess. And it, I think, like
when I look back at it, is thatit ultimately was my competitive
advantage. So I was, I guess I'mnot following the rules. In
(14:05):
university, I was engaging in alot of other things. I was
freelancing, and I was doingeditorial fellowships for us
publications, and I, just likeyou know, was busy with
everything that piqued myinterest. And when I graduated,
I was able to, like, have, youknow, I already had a roster of
(14:27):
freelance clients, and I wasable to build my business, and I
was able to not follow the ruleswhich was the traditional path,
and I found that I was in a muchbetter position than the cohort
of people I had graduated with,and many of them were coming to
me for advice, and that was avery trippy experience for me,
because I used to always look atthem and be like, How are you so
(14:48):
studious? How are you so good atthis? And suddenly it was like,
oh, maybe like me beingdistracted actually kind of
opened up a lot of doors for methat I didn't recognize the
value of at the time.
Kim Bolourtchi (14:59):
Yeah. Hmm, I could not love this more. I
could not love this more so youbeing you and being creative and
innovative and not following therules, even by the time you
graduated from university, ledyou to being more successful.
And you know, just doing thingsyour own way gave you your
(15:20):
competitive advantage
Alice Draper (15:22):
absolutely, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, I feel like
I'm so unemployable. And like,thank goodness, thank goodness I
created those options for myselfat the time by not following the
rules. Yeah,
Kim Bolourtchi (15:35):
I love that.
What advice would you give topeople who you know, who are
similarly situated? Because Ithink there are a lot of people
out there who feel like eitherthey can't follow the rules,
they don't want to follow therules, and yet they're
constantly being told they'resupposed to, yeah, yeah, really.
Well, of like, it's almost likea feeling of failure, right?
Like, I know I'm supposed to bedoing this thing, but I can't do
(15:57):
it, or I don't want to do it,something in my body is just
like, No, this isn't who I am.
What would you tell them basedon the life you're living and
how it's going for you?
Alice Draper (16:07):
This is a great question. It's when I was
thinking about in a differentcontext, because it's a tricky
one, because I think it alldepends on, like, the situation,
you know. So for example, let'ssay you're in a job, a corporate
job, and it's paying, I don'tknow where someone is in their
career, but if you're, like,kind of high up in the ranks,
and you, like, have a six figuresalary, and you're in golden
handcuffs because you have awhole bunch of expenses, it's
(16:30):
not easy to say, Okay, I'm goingto stop following the rules. I'm
going to quit, and I'm justgoing to, like, do my own
venture. So what I have found,and this is from my limited life
experience as being helpful as arule breaker. When I'm in
situations where I kind of haveto follow the rule is I figure
out my hacks that make it easierfor me. So, like school systems,
(16:53):
I would figure out what insteadof, you know, okay, I didn't
listen in class. So how can Ido, like, pretty well. I would
learn this sort of throughouthigh school and university. How
can I do pretty well knowing mybrain, and so my brain is like,
Okay, we need to, like, look atthe past essays, and we need to,
like, notice trends and see whatdo they normally assess on and,
(17:14):
like, figure out our strengths.
So within the system you're infiguring out how you can make it
work for you and do the best youcan. And then if you want to get
out of the system, be strategicabout how you're going to do
that. So does that mean thatyou're starting your side hustle
on the side? Do you have thesafety net to leave and try
something? There's always riskinvolved to getting out of a
(17:36):
system, unless you're likefortunate like me and you
started in university, but Iknow not everyone is in that
situation, but leaning into yourcuriosities, leaning into your
strengths, spending as much timeas possible there, like if it's
the stuff that really lights youup and makes you excited, try
and carve as much time intobuilding that whatever that is,
(17:59):
whether it's a business or abook you want to write, try, try
and create the time and space towork on that so that you can
eventually make that your thing.
I don't know if, I don't know ifI answered that well, being
strategic with it.
Kim Bolourtchi (18:15):
Answered it beautifully. And you know, one
of the things I agree with youso much, I think sometimes
people get this idea where theythink, like, if I'm not going to
do the thing I'm doing, I haveto completely let go and go do
something else. Right? Becausewe live in this world where a
lot of times our options are youdo either this or this, and we
think in polarities. And Ialways like to think about the
(18:37):
power of and right, where it'slike, well, you don't have to
just do this, or do this, asyou're suggesting, you can keep
the thing that's keeping yousafe while you are also, you
know, starting to think aboutwhat this other thing you
really, really want to do lookslike, and start cultivating it
so you've got an and happening,until you get this where you're
like, Okay, now I'm actuallygoing to go all the way in. I
(18:58):
will say, though sometimes, youknow, depending on your
situation, like a little bit ofleaping before you know how it's
going to go can be the bestthing you can do, and again, not
putting yourself at risk, or,you know, so that you're like,
going to be unable to pay yourbills. But some of the best
moments in my life have happenedwhen I was willing to say like
this just doesn't work for me. Idon't really know what's on the
(19:20):
other side, but I know I need togo do that thing because it
really, really excites me, andI'm just going to go do that
thing and know that it's goingto work out, and it always
Alice Draper (19:28):
does. Yeah, yeah.
Well, to your point, Kim, Icompletely agree with you. I
think that because when I wasgiving advice, like, kind of
early in my career, I was alwaystrying to eliminate risk, and
something I've realized, whatlearned is that my theory now is
that a lot of the successfulpeople, that people we really
look at to a big chunk of thatis because they were prepared to
take risks. They were preparedto leap into that unknown. And
(19:51):
so it's very hard to mitigatethat. There's going to be risk
involved. I think there's a lotof quotes, you know, Fortune
favors the bold and you. Yeah,you know, there's a reason why
not everyone does these things.
Because, yes, it is risky. Itisn't as safe. So I think you
can be smart and strategic, andyou should really, like, have a
(20:12):
strategy behind the risks you'retaking, and do your research and
know that there are good risks,but there there is some, yeah,
risk involved. And I think, likeit would be a disservice to
pretend like there's no risk inlike, starting your own thing or
working on your book or whateverit is, because, yeah, it's it's
harder to jump into our passion.
But that doesn't mean it's notworth doing.
Kim Bolourtchi (20:35):
I agree so much, and I think there's beauty and
just saying like, rejection ishard, failure is hard. Risk is
hard. We're going to do itanyway though.
Unknown (20:44):
Yeah, we can do hard things. Words.
Alice Draper (20:47):
Can end oil like, there's, there's a reason it's
hard. And you know, if you, ifyou're prepared to do the hard
work, I think that's, that's,that can be your competitive
advantage. I had an interviewwith an author on my podcast
called Geraldine de royder, andshe she talks about how she
spent two like, so she's apretty well known and pretty
(21:11):
successful author now, but ittook her a long time to get
there. And she spent two yearswriting a blog every single day,
and with it getting no traction.
And I remember, like, when shewas describing, like, her
differentiator, she was like,I'm just gonna do this longer
and harder than anyone else,until someone eventually notices
me. And like, sometimes it'sthat, you know, there's a lot of
fancy, shiny things, but many,many people are just not
(21:34):
consistent with the thing thatthey really want to be known
for. And the ones who stand outare often the ones who stick
with it the longest.
Kim Bolourtchi (21:45):
I love that so much. If people want to know
more about you or your work,where's the best place where
they can reach you?
Alice Draper (21:55):
Yeah, I think the podcast, which is called my
rejection story, that wouldthat's where I would direct you.
You can find me on all theplatforms if you search my name.
But I would say the podcast is agreat place to start, perfect.
Kim Bolourtchi (22:07):
And I will just encourage everybody to take a
listen. The podcast is really,really good, and I went down a
rabbit hole listening to theepisodes. So I know, I know my
listeners will enjoy it as well.
Alice, I have loved having youon the show. It has been such a
pleasure having thisconversation. Thank you for
taking the time to chat with metoday. Thank
Alice Draper (22:29):
you for creating the space. Kim, I think that we
all need to get a little bitmore Unruly I am a firm believer
the world is a better place whenwe're willing to step outside
the lines and confines that havebeen set for us. So thank you so
much for having me
Kim Bolourtchi (22:44):
absolutely and thank you so much for sharing
your story. This is Kimbolourchi, and you've been
listening to get unruly untilnext time. Stay brave, stay
bold, and by all means, stayunruly. Thanks for listening,
friends. I'll see you next week.
Welcome to get unruly. Today I have an amazing
(00:03):
guest I'm so excited to have aconversation with. I've got
Alice Draper. Alice is thefounder of the podcast, guesting
company, hustling writers andthe host of the podcast my
rejection story. She's on amission to make publicity
accessible by reframingrejection, Alice has secured her
(00:23):
clients on countless podcasts,including most of the top point
5% shows on her newly launchedpodcast, my rejection story, you
can listen to best sellingauthors like Whitney Goodman,
Jason Van ruler, or guy winchshare how they navigated the
toughest periods of theirpersonal and professional lives,
(00:43):
and how this shaped the successthey now experience today. Her
words can be found in Huff PostBusiness Insider vice and
refinery. 29 Alice loves strongcoffee. We share that by the
way, affordable travel hacks anddeep connections. She detests
small talk, waking up early andunnecessary jargon. Welcome
(01:07):
Alice.
Alice Draper (01:09):
Thank you so much, Kim. I'm so excited for our
conversation today, and thanksfor the wonderful introduction.
Kim Bolourtchi (01:15):
Absolutely so I want to start by talking a
little bit about your podcast,the rejection story, my
rejection story, sorry, I'velistened. It's awesome. It's
real. It's amazing. Whatinspired you to start this
podcast?
Unknown (01:33):
I love this question, and thank you for listening.
It's like the ultimate passionproject of the past year. And a
bit, what inspired me would be acollection of things. It was, it
felt like it came to me like acalling in a walk. It sounds so
dramatic, and it felt verydramatic, where I just realized
the concept, and I was like,it's going to be called. The
name came to me the concept, thetypes of conversations we'd be
(01:57):
having. But it was sparked by aseries of events, some were
noticing that every time Iposted a personal rejection
story in my mailing list or tomy audience, that engagement was
far, far higher than any otherpost I ever put out there. And
so I kind of got the sense thatpeople are starved for these
like, you know, behind thescenes, like, yeah, there is a
(02:19):
success story, but this is alsoeverything that went behind the
scenes. So I would also, like,it was often, like, I would talk
about how many times I gotrejected before I landed the
byline. Because people would belike, Wow, you're writing the
Business Insider. You're writingfor Huff Post. You're doing
these great things. I'd be like,there's a lot else happening
that you're not seeing andyou're just seeing the success
stories. So I Yeah, it was onekind of a response to seeing
(02:42):
what was happening. And thenother things were recognizing, I
just think, like, the nature ofonline media right now is that
we, we see, you know, it's, it'sonly natural to share the
successful parts of things. So,yeah, I don't know. It was like
a bunch of things. It was theconversations I had with clients
as a publicist over the years, Irealized that the best stories
(03:04):
and the stories that reallyconnected were the sort of
trials and tribulations theywent through in order to get to
where they came like arrived,and that those trials and
tribulations actually informedthe meaning behind their work.
So I really wanted to showcasethat, and I felt there was a
gap, and people weren't doingit, and bunch of different
(03:24):
things, and they all cametogether in the podcast.
Kim Bolourtchi (03:27):
I love that so much. You know? I think
especially today, there's somuch emphasis on showing the
shiny, sparkly end result,right? If you look online, you
see so many people who are likeI did this. I've arrived here.
Here's what I've accomplished.
And while that's great, mostpeople don't share the messy,
ugly, icky stuff that all of usgo through on the way to getting
(03:50):
there. And I think it can givean impression to people who
don't have a lot of experiencetalking about their own
failures, or people they cantalk about them to that they're
the only one experiencing it.
And so I really love that you'vecreated this platform of like,
hey, really successful peoplehave failed in order to get
(04:10):
where they are. My question is,you probably have a rejection
story that stands out. I'mguessing right that that is one
that is really prominent for youand in your life. Would you be
willing to share what that
Alice Draper (04:25):
one is? Yeah?
Yeah, of course. I don't know ifit's like a but I feel like
there's something I went throughthat really reframed my
relationship with rejection. Somy my answer may not be as
specific as you asked, but I'mtrying to think of like the big
the big rejection. Yeah, so Iwas very rejection avoidant for
a big portion of my life, upuntil the pandemic 2020 and so I
(04:45):
did everything in my power toavoid rejection. And something
shifted in 2020 which is that Imoved home to look after my
father with dementia. And it it.
Wasn't exactly a rejection, butin some cases like it sort of
accumulated a lot of things. Ifelt like at the time I was not
(05:07):
going to have the career that Iwas working towards, because I
didn't know when this would end.
I was isolated from friends, soI no longer, like, you know,
always was so scared of beingrejected by friends, but now I
was kind of forced intoisolation. I a lot, I guess the
world that I thought that I wasbuilding came crumbling down,
and then I was also processingall that grief. I also lost all
my freelance clients all atonce. I had been working so hard
(05:30):
for some big projects, and theywere killed because of the
pandemic. So like many people'spandemic stories, like a lot
went wrong professionally, andthen my personal life was kind
of falling apart as well. Andthe interesting thing that
happened after, you know, Iprocessed all of that and things
settled down, and were able to Iwas able to my family, and I
(05:51):
were able to hire some care, andmy I sort of went out and live
my life in 2021 is that my, Ihad a much thicker skin. I was
so I wasn't as rejectionsensitive as I had been before,
and so I was like, fearless. Iwas fearlessly building my
business. I was fearlesslymaking new friends and dating
(06:14):
and just everything. Was not asscary as it had been before,
because I realized I couldsurvive hard things. And so,
yeah, that kind of was, like, mykind of informer of like, wow,
life is really, really greatwhen you're not so scared of
getting rejected. Like, amazingthings can happen. And that, I
(06:36):
guess that was, like, a bigstory that made me like formed
part of that mission of why Iwanted to share that with the
world.
Kim Bolourtchi (06:45):
I love that, I mean, I don't love that you went
through that, but I love thatyou had so much adversity and
were able to come out of itknowing like, Hey, this is what
I'm made of. And I alsoappreciate sort of your, you
know, your awareness andadmission that you avoided
rejection for a really longtime. Because I think all of us
(07:06):
do, like, nobody wants to berejected, like, let's be honest,
right? We really don't and so,and I think, you know, a lot of
us are taught growing up thatit's dangerous to be rejected
because it goes to our sense ofself. We feel bad about
ourselves. But if you don't putyourself out there, and you
don't do things that are hardand that are scary, you never
have the opportunity toexperience kind of what happens
(07:28):
on the other side of the thingsthat are hard and scary. And I
always say the best things areon the other side of that, but
you have to be willing to walkthrough it. And it sounds to me
like, you know, like you didthat and you came out really
thriving,
Alice Draper (07:43):
yes, yes, no one wants to go through that. And I
think there's that like, likeyou said, you know, we we would
do, and it's also biologicallywithin us to avoid rejection at
all costs. But I think that wedon't understand that there are
different types of rejectionsthat are more risky than others,
and that we should actually begetting rejected for low risk
things quite regularly. So Soyeah, so I think that knowing
(08:06):
that they're that, that goingthrough some hard things can
come out, like, you can come outon the other side, and it can
turn out, I guess, turn outwell, is, is? Is something that
I want more people to know. AndI it's a tricky one, because I
also don't want to say, like,you know, you have to go through
something really hard, but I dothink that we're just going to
go through hard things like,that's just a part of the human
(08:28):
experience. And I'm very curiousabout what makes someone one
person's adversity, like, whatturns out into a period of
growth, and that they come outof the other side a better
version of themselves, and forother people, it may not look
that way. And that's really theheart of what I want to get to
and get curious about, because Ithink it can go one of two ways,
(08:49):
and I would rather move in thedirection of growth than then be
paid just pure pain andsuffering.
Kim Bolourtchi (08:56):
Yeah, I also, you know, what's funny is, I'm
kicking myself because the waythat I asked you that question
was like, what's the one thing?
And I hate when people ask methat, what's the one thing,
because, like you I don't havejust one thing. It's a series of
experiences. And I think it'simportant to point that out
that, you know, sometimes peoplethink if I haven't gone through
a really big thing, I'm not ableto have the really big growth.
(09:17):
Like the people with the really,you know, big stories are the
ones who have the biggest lives.
And the truth is that it's just,I think, by facing the hard
things that can crop up, justeven in our daily lives, that
still give us the resilience tobe rejected, to reframe our
reality, to do the hard things.
And I really, I love that, thatthat's exactly how you answered
(09:39):
that question. Thank you forthat. That was really good.
Alice Draper (09:43):
Well, well, to your point, Kim, I think there
can be a catalyst. So like, Iwould say, like, for me, my dad,
my dad's dimension, was acatalyst, in some shape or form.
There were a lot of differentthings leading up to it, but
that was the catalyst. And so Idon't mind the question, because
I think there can often be, youknow. Like, and you write about
in your book, The time when yourhusband shared that your dance,
(10:04):
you're a dancer. Like, I feellike that was a catalyst of some
form that sort of opened upthings, even though there
probably were a lot of otherthings happening in the
background or leading up to us.
Yeah,
Kim Bolourtchi (10:14):
absolutely. So I'd love to shift a little bit
and talk about your relationshipwith the rules. Because one of
the things my listeners really,really love hearing about is how
people who are successful andwho are doing really cool things
in the world have navigated therules or or broken them. And one
(10:36):
of the things you've shared withme is your relationship with the
rules from early on, and I don'twant to put words in your mouth,
so let's, let's talk about thisa little bit.
Alice Draper (10:45):
Yeah, yeah. So for those listening when, when Kim
and I connected before, I spokeabout how I unintentionally was
a rule breaker from a very youngage. And so it's interesting.
Now I'm framing like I was veryrejection avoidant. I feel like
I wasn't breaking rules onpurpose. I just couldn't I just
wasn't very good at followingthe rules of school systems and
(11:06):
like a university system. So Iwas always in trouble for being
late. I was in trouble for beingmessy. I was in trouble for not
like, writing between the linesand not following the
instructions exactly as they'remeant to be followed. And so I
was this natural rule break. Andthen I do kind of wonder if,
like being being told that therewere a lot of things wrong with
(11:28):
me, which is a very commonexperience for people with ADHD.
I think, like William Dodsonsaid that people ADHD experience
something like 20 or something1000 more negative comments by
the time they're 12 than otherchildren. I wonder if that made
me less like, like, open togetting rejected in other areas
of my life, because I was like,I don't want more negative
comments. I don't know theanswer to that, but yeah, I
(11:51):
naturally was a bit of a rulebreaker, and I always thought
that this was like a thorn in myside, something that was gonna
really hold me back and stop mefrom doing well in life. I feel
like that was the message that Iwas getting told from
institutions, schools and stuffand then,
Kim Bolourtchi (12:10):
and this was because you did not follow the
rules in school, like you had ahard time doing what they wanted
you to do in the traditionalschool setting. I just want to
be really clear for everybodyabout this, because there's so
many people out there, andobviously the kids aren't
listening to this podcast, butthere are a lot of parents out
there, right who still have kidsin systems. They're saying
you're, you know, your kids toospirited, your kid doesn't
(12:33):
follow the rules, your kiddoesn't write between the lines.
Your kid is too energetic, toocreative, not following the
rules. So I really, really wantto identify. This is the thing
you were criticized for, right?
Alice Draper (12:44):
Yes, daydreaming, daydreaming a lot. You know,
there wasthe word potential was used a
lot with me. So it was like, youknow, Alice has such great
potential. I can remember mygrade six teacher discussing my
results and my results wereokay. I luckily just did. I
always did, like, kind of aboveaverage in school. But she was,
like, discussing my results withmy mom, and she was and I was
(13:04):
there, and she was like, youknow, these results are fine,
but Alice has the potential tobe one of the top students. She
could be the top students inthis class. Like, she could be
getting 90% across the grade.
And so I had this idea, like,I'm just like, I have all this
potential, and I just can't seemto get it together to listen in
(13:25):
class, and I can't seem to gettogether to do what all the
other top students are doing.
And I would like set theseresolutions and be like, this is
the year I'm going to do it.
I've got all my notebooks forevery subject, and this year I'm
going to really sit and listento the teacher. And then it just
never happened. So, yeah, itwas, it was not intentional, but
(13:45):
very much being told I was kindof not a rule follower in the
school system. And I thoughtthat this was going to be my
greatest weakness in life, Iguess. And it, I think, like
when I look back at it, is thatit ultimately was my competitive
advantage. So I was, I guess I'mnot following the rules. In
(14:05):
university, I was engaging in alot of other things. I was
freelancing, and I was doingeditorial fellowships for us
publications, and I, just likeyou know, was busy with
everything that piqued myinterest. And when I graduated,
I was able to, like, have, youknow, I already had a roster of
(14:27):
freelance clients, and I wasable to build my business, and I
was able to not follow the ruleswhich was the traditional path,
and I found that I was in a muchbetter position than the cohort
of people I had graduated with,and many of them were coming to
me for advice, and that was avery trippy experience for me,
because I used to always look atthem and be like, How are you so
(14:48):
studious? How are you so good atthis? And suddenly it was like,
oh, maybe like me beingdistracted actually kind of
opened up a lot of doors for methat I didn't recognize the
value of at the time.
Kim Bolourtchi (14:59):
Yeah. Hmm, I could not love this more. I
could not love this more so youbeing you and being creative and
innovative and not following therules, even by the time you
graduated from university, ledyou to being more successful.
And you know, just doing thingsyour own way gave you your
(15:20):
competitive advantage
Alice Draper (15:22):
absolutely, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, I feel like
I'm so unemployable. And like,thank goodness, thank goodness I
created those options for myselfat the time by not following the
rules. Yeah,
Kim Bolourtchi (15:35):
I love that.
What advice would you give topeople who you know, who are
similarly situated? Because Ithink there are a lot of people
out there who feel like eitherthey can't follow the rules,
they don't want to follow therules, and yet they're
constantly being told they'resupposed to, yeah, yeah, really.
Well, of like, it's almost likea feeling of failure, right?
Like, I know I'm supposed to bedoing this thing, but I can't do
(15:57):
it, or I don't want to do it,something in my body is just
like, No, this isn't who I am.
What would you tell them basedon the life you're living and
how it's going for you?
Alice Draper (16:07):
This is a great question. It's when I was
thinking about in a differentcontext, because it's a tricky
one, because I think it alldepends on, like, the situation,
you know. So for example, let'ssay you're in a job, a corporate
job, and it's paying, I don'tknow where someone is in their
career, but if you're, like,kind of high up in the ranks,
and you, like, have a six figuresalary, and you're in golden
handcuffs because you have awhole bunch of expenses, it's
(16:30):
not easy to say, Okay, I'm goingto stop following the rules. I'm
going to quit, and I'm justgoing to, like, do my own
venture. So what I have found,and this is from my limited life
experience as being helpful as arule breaker. When I'm in
situations where I kind of haveto follow the rule is I figure
out my hacks that make it easierfor me. So, like school systems,
(16:53):
I would figure out what insteadof, you know, okay, I didn't
listen in class. So how can Ido, like, pretty well. I would
learn this sort of throughouthigh school and university. How
can I do pretty well knowing mybrain, and so my brain is like,
Okay, we need to, like, look atthe past essays, and we need to,
like, notice trends and see whatdo they normally assess on and,
(17:14):
like, figure out our strengths.
So within the system you're infiguring out how you can make it
work for you and do the best youcan. And then if you want to get
out of the system, be strategicabout how you're going to do
that. So does that mean thatyou're starting your side hustle
on the side? Do you have thesafety net to leave and try
something? There's always riskinvolved to getting out of a
(17:36):
system, unless you're likefortunate like me and you
started in university, but Iknow not everyone is in that
situation, but leaning into yourcuriosities, leaning into your
strengths, spending as much timeas possible there, like if it's
the stuff that really lights youup and makes you excited, try
and carve as much time intobuilding that whatever that is,
(17:59):
whether it's a business or abook you want to write, try, try
and create the time and space towork on that so that you can
eventually make that your thing.
I don't know if, I don't know ifI answered that well, being
strategic with it.
Kim Bolourtchi (18:15):
Answered it beautifully. And you know, one
of the things I agree with youso much, I think sometimes
people get this idea where theythink, like, if I'm not going to
do the thing I'm doing, I haveto completely let go and go do
something else. Right? Becausewe live in this world where a
lot of times our options are youdo either this or this, and we
think in polarities. And Ialways like to think about the
(18:37):
power of and right, where it'slike, well, you don't have to
just do this, or do this, asyou're suggesting, you can keep
the thing that's keeping yousafe while you are also, you
know, starting to think aboutwhat this other thing you
really, really want to do lookslike, and start cultivating it
so you've got an and happening,until you get this where you're
like, Okay, now I'm actuallygoing to go all the way in. I
(18:58):
will say, though sometimes, youknow, depending on your
situation, like a little bit ofleaping before you know how it's
going to go can be the bestthing you can do, and again, not
putting yourself at risk, or,you know, so that you're like,
going to be unable to pay yourbills. But some of the best
moments in my life have happenedwhen I was willing to say like
this just doesn't work for me. Idon't really know what's on the
(19:20):
other side, but I know I need togo do that thing because it
really, really excites me, andI'm just going to go do that
thing and know that it's goingto work out, and it always
Alice Draper (19:28):
does. Yeah, yeah.
Well, to your point, Kim, Icompletely agree with you. I
think that because when I wasgiving advice, like, kind of
early in my career, I was alwaystrying to eliminate risk, and
something I've realized, whatlearned is that my theory now is
that a lot of the successfulpeople, that people we really
look at to a big chunk of thatis because they were prepared to
take risks. They were preparedto leap into that unknown. And
(19:51):
so it's very hard to mitigatethat. There's going to be risk
involved. I think there's a lotof quotes, you know, Fortune
favors the bold and you. Yeah,you know, there's a reason why
not everyone does these things.
Because, yes, it is risky. Itisn't as safe. So I think you
can be smart and strategic, andyou should really, like, have a
(20:12):
strategy behind the risks you'retaking, and do your research and
know that there are good risks,but there there is some, yeah,
risk involved. And I think, likeit would be a disservice to
pretend like there's no risk inlike, starting your own thing or
working on your book or whateverit is, because, yeah, it's it's
harder to jump into our passion.
But that doesn't mean it's notworth doing.
Kim Bolourtchi (20:35):
I agree so much, and I think there's beauty and
just saying like, rejection ishard, failure is hard. Risk is
hard. We're going to do itanyway though.
Unknown (20:44):
Yeah, we can do hard things. Words.
Alice Draper (20:47):
Can end oil like, there's, there's a reason it's
hard. And you know, if you, ifyou're prepared to do the hard
work, I think that's, that's,that can be your competitive
advantage. I had an interviewwith an author on my podcast
called Geraldine de royder, andshe she talks about how she
spent two like, so she's apretty well known and pretty
(21:11):
successful author now, but ittook her a long time to get
there. And she spent two yearswriting a blog every single day,
and with it getting no traction.
And I remember, like, when shewas describing, like, her
differentiator, she was like,I'm just gonna do this longer
and harder than anyone else,until someone eventually notices
me. And like, sometimes it'sthat, you know, there's a lot of
fancy, shiny things, but many,many people are just not
(21:34):
consistent with the thing thatthey really want to be known
for. And the ones who stand outare often the ones who stick
with it the longest.
Kim Bolourtchi (21:45):
I love that so much. If people want to know
more about you or your work,where's the best place where
they can reach you?
Alice Draper (21:55):
Yeah, I think the podcast, which is called my
rejection story, that wouldthat's where I would direct you.
You can find me on all theplatforms if you search my name.
But I would say the podcast is agreat place to start, perfect.
Kim Bolourtchi (22:07):
And I will just encourage everybody to take a
listen. The podcast is really,really good, and I went down a
rabbit hole listening to theepisodes. So I know, I know my
listeners will enjoy it as well.
Alice, I have loved having youon the show. It has been such a
pleasure having thisconversation. Thank you for
taking the time to chat with metoday. Thank
Alice Draper (22:29):
you for creating the space. Kim, I think that we
all need to get a little bitmore Unruly I am a firm believer
the world is a better place whenwe're willing to step outside
the lines and confines that havebeen set for us. So thank you so
much for having me
Kim Bolourtchi (22:44):
absolutely and thank you so much for sharing
your story. This is Kimbolourchi, and you've been
listening to get unruly untilnext time. Stay brave, stay
bold, and by all means, stayunruly. Thanks for listening,
friends. I'll see you next week.
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