April 10, 2023 • 23 mins
85% of us walk around feeling, at some point or another, like we can't show the world who we truly are. For a long time, I was part of that statistic, while in complete denial about the toll it was taking.
The reason we feel the need to hide parts of ourselves, and the solution, are not what you think. Listen in as Kim and Ray get real, and talk candidly about imposter phenomenon.
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Episode Transcript
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Kimberly Bolourtchi (00:00):
This is Kimberly Bolourtchi, and you're
listening to boldly stated,welcome to the podcast today,
I've invited Ray back, those ofyou who listen know Ray is my
spouse, and a pretty fun voiceto have on the podcast with me.
So although you don't know whatwe're talking about today, I'm
really excited that you're backin the chair. Thank you.
Ray Bolourtchi (00:20):
Thanks for having me back in the chair. I'm
excited.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (00:22):
Awesome. So what I want to talk about today
is this idea of imposterphenomenon. I've been
researching, as you know, togive a talk on the topic. And
the funny thing is, it's kind ofembarrassing, but when I started
researching it, I saw thisstatistic that 70% of adults
have this feeling of not beingable to show the world who they
(00:46):
really are. And 85% of highachieving women have the same
feeling that you know, theycould be found out to be a
fraud, or maybe they don't knowenough, or they're not qualified
enough to be doing the thingsthat they're doing. And my first
thought, as I was readingthrough this was, Oh, my God,
this like really sucks for thosepeople. Right? I did not
(01:07):
identify myself in this topic atall. And then the more I kept
researching and reading, Irecognized that I had a total
blind spot, because I more thanresonate with this idea. So
before I tell the story thatmade me realize what what it
was. I just want to ask you, doyou ever feel like this is
(01:32):
something you deal with in yourlife? Do you ever feel like
maybe you don't know enough? Youcan't show people who you really
are. You have to hide parts ofyourself to be accepted?
Ray Bolourtchi (01:40):
I call this the Congressman Santos syndrome.
Well, you said fraud. No. Yeah,no, I don't.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (01:50):
You don't?
Ray Bolourtchi (01:50):
I don't. Okay. I don't. You know, I'll be honest
with you. I think that there wasa part. There was a time, you
know, in my youth, you know, youhave insecurities and judgment.
I think that I would have jumpedon it and said, Yes.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (02:07):
Today, you just don't give a fuck do you?
Ray Bolourtchi (02:10):
I don't. Okay, it is what it is. You don't you
get what you see. Yeah. Andlet's do that.
Unknown (02:16):
I love that about you.
I will say though, I mean, Iwould have said the same about
me, right. I feel like I verymuch kind of live in my own
space. And I do my thing and Ibreak the rules. And I'm you
know, kind of a rebelreincarnate. But I'm going to be
honest, and say that I have toacknowledge that there have been
moments where I really canresonate. So back when I used to
(02:39):
dance competitively, one of thefirst St. Louis Starballs that
we ever had, I remember standingthere and I was wearing my very
skimpy costume that was, youknow, covered in Swarovski
crystals and my fishnet hose andmy sparkly earrings, and I had
so much makeup on that I thinkmy mom walked by and didn't even
recognize me. My hair was done,you know, and I'm getting ready
(03:02):
to go out and and do a Latindance, and I'm standing on deck.
And my thought in my head wasalways, I don't want anyone in
my professional world in thelegal world to ever see me do
this, because they won't respectme. They won't take me
seriously, right? Like, this ismy hidden secret. The fact that
I'm a dancer, the fact that Ilove, you know, getting all
(03:23):
dressed up and competing. And soI was standing there getting
ready to compete, and I lookedout because we're in freakin St.
Louis. Everybody knows everybodyin St. Louis, right? I look out
into the audience. And I see acolleague, and I'm about to walk
onto the floor. And I think tomyself, like I started having
that dual conversation in myhead where I think to myself,
(03:43):
like Oh, shit, I'm about to bediscovered. Like, people are
gonna know that I'm not who theythink I am. Because there's this
whole group of people out therewho think of me as a lawyer, and
I've worked really, really hardto, you know, have this
professional image and to lookprofessional and to sound smart
and professional, which all ofthose things are true. But I
never wanted anyone to see thisside of me. Why? Because it's
(04:06):
this belief, this deep seatedbelief that I can't show you who
I really am, which is exactlywhat imposter phenomenon is, by
the way, um,
Ray Bolourtchi (04:20):
but you're doing exactly that you're actually
showing who you are, becauseyou're on the dance floor, and
makeup and right, but compete,
Kimberly Bolourtchi (04:27):
but I had compartmentalized the things
right. So it was like, safe forme to do that. If nobody's told
me do that. I didn't want anyonein the world of my professional
world to see, you know, to seeme dance because I was scared
that they would think less ofme. And so I'm standing on deck
and I look out and I see thisperson and all of a sudden I
have this idea, which is like Ican't even it makes me almost
(04:51):
nauseous to think about this,but I have this idea before I
dance. I'm like, Well, I'm justgonna dance like a lawyer would
dance like I'm gonna be reallyprofessional. When I did, and so
I literally went out there andinstead of being free, and
instead of, you know, doing whatI normally do, which is just
(05:11):
like the whole world can see mysoul when I danced and I let it
all out. I went out there likeholding myself, like very tall
and very stiff and very like,I'm going to look like a
professional while I am dancingLatin dance.
Ray Bolourtchi (05:25):
So Latin dance, basically, you have to be a
provacatrix. Correct. But thenyou decided to dance like a
church lady.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (05:32):
I mean, yes,
Ray Bolourtchi (05:35):
all dolled up.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (05:37):
Well, I mean, it wasn't like, I picked
this, I'm going to look likethat. But in my head, it was I
can't be free. I have to. So Ilike pulled my lawyer persona
into my body. Even thoughexternally I looked completely
different. I danced like arobot. I had no there was no
passion, there was no fire,there was no connection. It was
literally like, oh my god, oh mygod, oh my god, you know, I'm
(06:01):
going to dance with my brain. SoI'm going to dance with how
smart I am, which was a completedisaster. But, but also
horrifying, right? Horrifying,to look back and recognize that
I was willing to sacrifice allthe work I put in to get ready
for competition, all the timeand passion that I devoted
(06:22):
toward being really, really goodat dancing and loving it my
whole entire life. I didn't feelsafe enough in the world to be
both things at once. Why isthat? It's because it's the
essence of the way we'reconditioned. Right? So we're
taught when we're young, werewere useful for me, like, like,
(06:43):
my by greatest quality,according to the people in my
life was my utility, right? Ican be counted on I'm really,
really resourceful. I'm reallyfreaking smart. So if you need
me to solve a problem for you, Iam that person. Right? Like from
the age of two on, people werelooking to me to be older than I
was wiser than I was. And I tooka lot of pride in that because
(07:04):
that's where people showed melove. Right? It was like, We
love you, we accept you, we wevalue you when you are being
useful. That is your that isyour gift. Unfortunately, right,
I internalized that because weall want to be loved and
accepted. And so I grew upfeeling like I need to always be
useful. I need to always behelpful, I need to always be
(07:27):
smart. And that's where mygreatest value comes from. And I
hid the creative, expressive,sassy, you know, really, really
sort of juicy parts of mypersonality. They were there, I
kept them alive, but they wereon the inside. And so I knew
that I needed to be the useful,the useful Kim the business can
(07:49):
the smart Kim to really beaccepted in the world, right.
And as a woman, particularly, Ithink it's very easy to fall
into this idea of like, Who doyou need me to be so I can get
where I want to go?
Ray Bolourtchi (08:01):
Now I understand what, what makes people feel
like an imposter.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (08:06):
Right?
Because you know, like, I knowthat when I'm just showing up
with part of myself, even ifit's the part you want to see,
even if it's the part you like alot, right? Even if it's the
part that makes everybody elsereally happy and really
comfortable. If I'm hiding mysparkles, and I'm hiding the
essence of myself, because Idon't think it's safe to show
(08:27):
that I'm not fully showing up.
And this is what creates thatfeeling in freaking 85% of the
people who admit it. And I thinkit's probably everybody at some
point even you not admitting itsitting across from me right
now. We're where we all feellike, it's not safe to show the
world who we truly are in all ofour parts and pieces, right? We
(08:51):
pick the pieces that are goingto serve us the best based on
the conditioning we've beengiven from the world. So if you
believe you're your mostvaluable, when you're useful,
you're going to be freakinguseful. If you believe your most
valuable when you're serving,you're going to be serving, you
know, whatever it is that yourparticular gift is that was
really, really pushed by thepeople around you. And a lot of
(09:16):
times it's based on what theyneed, not on where you're going
to shine the most is whereyou're going to show up and
where you're going to push. Andthe reason I think people hit a
ceiling, right in their careerin their life or in their
relationships is because theyhave this feeling inside of
like, I want more, I need more,I can do more, but they don't
know how to access it. Becausethe more is hidden inside of
(09:38):
them in that part that wasn'tuseful, or that wasn't
applauded, or that wasn'trewarded. And so they're like,
Well, shit, that's not importantenough, that's not worthy
enough, that part of me isn'tcool, and people aren't going to
like it. So I'm going to buryit. And then you have moments,
right? Like I did where theworlds are are literally staring
(10:00):
each other in the face. And youhave to decide, right? Am I
this? Or am I that or you say,Fuck this noise, I'm going to be
all of it. And that's ultimatelywhere I've arrived. But it's
taken me almost this entirejourney of my life to get there.
And I know there's so manypeople who feel like they're
(10:21):
still choosing their boxes andchoosing their roles.
Ray Bolourtchi (10:24):
So basically, what you're telling me is that
this was the triggering momentin your life, the moment that
you stepped on the dance floor.
That really made you have theSelf Realization.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (10:36):
No, I wish it was, um, it was it was
miserable. It was upsetting. Itwas scary. And I think all I
thought about afterward was thatI hoped this person didn't
recognize me. And I carried thatfear for a really, really long
time afterward. No, I mean, Ihave to be honest, since I'm
talking about this, this was nota story where it's like, oh,
(10:57):
there was this one event thatcatalyzed everything. For me, it
was a series of so manyuncomfortable situations over
the course of so many years.
Before, I think I finallyfigured out how to navigate it.
You know, another one that waslike, I look back now, and it
was one of my very favoritestories. Do you remember we were
(11:18):
arguing before the Supreme Courtof Missouri, we had that
criminal case? Yeah, that I wasarguing with you. And it was my
first time appearing before thecourt, you'd appeared many
times. And as is the tradition,an attorney has to interview or
not interview, um, it has tointroduce the you know, the
person appearing for the firsttime. And so do you remember
what you did to me? Yes. Whatdid you do?
Ray Bolourtchi (11:41):
So, I stood up in front of the court, and I
introduced you to the court. Andwhat I said to the court was,
you know, Kim Cofman is my lawpartner. And she also happens to
be my wife, which makes me anemployee. And also she is an
(12:01):
accomplished ballroom dancer.
And I remember turning over toyou and looking at you, and I
think that you, you faded intothe wall because you turned
white as chalk.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (12:13):
Yeah, that was, that was another one of
those moments, right? Where hereI am, I have to argue before the
Supreme Court, and of all thethings you could say about me,
my accomplishments, you chooseto start talking about dancing?
Well,
Ray Bolourtchi (12:27):
you know, I am that is probably one of the most
proud moments that I've ever hadwas watching you compete.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (12:35):
And I appreciate that very much. You
know, and in your defense, youdidn't know that I was having
this massive internal struggle.
No, because people who have thisfear of being discovered
absolutely don't talk about it.
Right. So you know, most peoplewho are listening to this you
can resonate, are not going togo have conversations about it
unless they know for suresomeone else feels the same way.
(12:55):
It's one of those things thathigh achieving people don't
typically go out and talk aboutour fears about
Ray Bolourtchi (13:01):
note on that note. Yeah. So you did your
argument. You got grilled? Youdid fantastic. Argument is over,
you then ran to the bathroom.
Yes. And then what happens? So
Kimberly Bolourtchi (13:14):
this is this is one of those moments
that was a catalyst, which iswhy I'm telling the story. So
after you embarrassed me,
Ray Bolourtchi (13:20):
I did not embarrass you.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (13:22):
I felt embarrassed. Okay, fine. I stand
corrected. I felt embarrassed,really humiliated and really
concerned again, excuse me, I'msharing my experience.
Ray Bolourtchi (13:33):
So you want some Kleenex,
Kimberly Bolourtchi (13:35):
I went to the restroom, I'm flipping him
off, which you guys can't see.
But um, I went to the restroomand in walks one of the female
justices, and we're both at thesink, she looks at me and she
says, Oh, my God. Tell me moreabout your dancing. Tell me more
about ballroom dancing. I havebeen wanting to have more in my
life for such a long time. Andlike no idea what I really
(13:56):
wanted to do, but listening toyour husband introduce you as a
dancer, knowing that you dothat. And this is so amazing.
Tell me, tell me more and tellme where I can go to get lessons
in this area. So we ended uphaving this conversation in the
bathroom that and, you know, beconnecting her with dance
lessons in in her area. And thatwas I think, the moment where I
(14:20):
walked out and I was like, Yougot to be kidding me. I've been
walking around, afraid thatthese two parts of my life could
never coexist in harmony. Andeven though I was still not
speaking to you, I was startingto realize that I had been
operating under this absolutefalse sense of what is possible.
Right. And I think I think thatwas the first time that I
(14:45):
started to breathe a little biteasier and realize that I don't
have to hide right and thatmaybe it's okay if I embrace all
of the parts and pieces and justshow up. And I think that Once I
started doing that, which I knowafter that point I did. My
dancing changed. My lawyeringchanged, my consulting changed.
(15:07):
My parenting changed. I thinkthat because I stopped spending
so much energy trying to projecta particular image in a
particular situation, to be whothe world wanted me to be or
what I thought I was supposed tobe, and just truly honored
myself, even though my gifts andtalents are so strangely,
(15:29):
meshed. I really started toshine.
Ray Bolourtchi (15:36):
All right. Well, I have a question for you. Let's
assume that you did not run intoa a Supreme Court justice, woman
Supreme Court justice in thebathroom and that conversation
had never occurred. Well, well,what Well, would you still stand
by what you just said,
Kimberly Bolourtchi (15:57):
I honestly believe I would have gotten
there. But that was the catalystthat was that was for sure. The
beginning, I think that it mighthave taken longer, it might have
been more situations. But nomatter how good you are
juggling, no matter how good ofa chameleon you are, and trust
me, I was one of the best. It'sunsustainable, to
(16:19):
compartmentalize yourself, andto choose your bits and pieces
and parts. And to expect thatyou're going to be able to
achieve your greatest impact,and to shine your brightest
light, and to be the mostincredible version of yourself
that you're here to possibly do.
Those things are incompatible.
(16:39):
You cannot minimize yourself andshrink yourself and hide parts
of yourself and expect thatyou're going to be able to be
here, and and shine in thebiggest brightest way. Because
you need all of your gifts, youreally do you need all of your
parts. And so I would havegotten there. I believe that
because I think this is reallymy journey. And part of what I'm
(16:59):
so good at helping leadersrealize and recognize and step
into how long it would havetaken me. I don't know
Ray Bolourtchi (17:07):
what so I'm gonna ask you another question.
So you had this moment. So forthose that haven't had that
moment, you know, what would yourecommend or suggest for the
look in the mirror, lookyourself in the eyes and say,
Fuck it, this is doing it.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (17:24):
So interestingly, though, the one
of the things that came up whileI was doing this research, that
is so full circle for me that italmost like blows my mind off my
shoulders, is I would tellpeople that they need to move
their bodies and that they needto dance. So for a really long
time, I've known that, you know,dance is it's therapeutic, in
(17:45):
addition to being liberating, inaddition to being freeing, it's,
it's the place where I couldalways express myself without
words. So whatever I was feelingwhatever I needed to express or
wanting to express, I didn'tneed words, I could just use my
body and let my emotions comeout through my movement. And so
it was, in a lot of ways themost free place for me, but I
have the benefit of beingtrained as a dancer from age
(18:07):
two, a lot of people when theythink of dancing, they're like,
Oh, my God, hell no, I can'tmove. I can't shake. I'm
uncoordinated. I can't this Ican't that it's like one of
those things that has so much.
There's actually so muchresistance right around it. And
yet, there's research now, asrecent as 2022 that just came
out of UCLA. That dance is runof Yeah, exactly. I need love
(18:29):
that the dance is one of thequickest ways for us to access
our inner world. And when I sayin a world, I'm talking about
all those things that we'vehidden inside of us that we
might not even know are there,right? Because it could happen
when you were really, reallyyoung. It can be it can be
trauma, it can be grief, it canbe somebody told you, you sucked
at something, and you vowed tonever do it again and you buried
(18:51):
it right. It's hard to know whatall we've hidden away over the
years. But when you allowyourself to move, and you allow
yourself to dance, and you allowyourself the freedom of letting
your body access what it knowsto be true, then you can really
connect all your parts andpieces. And so although there
(19:13):
are gazillions of self helpbooks out there, like imposter
phenomenon, or impostor syndromeis tons of resources about how
you can think your way out ofit. List your accomplishments
make, you know, make note of allthe good things you're doing
great. All of that is good. Butit's it's dealing with the
symptom. It's not dealing withthe fundamental problem, which
is we have conditioned ourselvesto not be hold and to not
(19:35):
believe that it's okay to behold.
Ray Bolourtchi (19:39):
I think I'm going to translate that and I'm
going to age myself, buthopefully a lot of the people
that are listening, if theyhaven't, they'll go and look at
the original. So what you'retelling me is that all the
people that I haven't done thatare living in the same town
where Footloose was shot,there's a city ordinance.
Dancing is prohibited but Youknow, the pinnacle of that show
(20:02):
is really or that movie isreally the end. And how all the
kids that that wanted to dance,they really wanted to get out
and dance and and so fullyexpressive. And I agree with you
watch Footloose.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (20:18):
It's a great movie. The original though
not the remakes. No. No, I mean,I think I think, you know, look,
we come onto this earth,everybody knowing how to move if
you watch it a toddler, youwatch a little kid with music,
when music comes on, they shake,they move, they wiggle like they
do. We all know how to dance.
It's, it's inherent in ourbodies. And it's only our
thoughts and ideas aboutappropriateness and about
(20:39):
whether we should or could orcan't or won't, that makes us
think we can't do it. And I'mnever going to win that
argument, right? When someonesays, I can't dance. I mean, I
know that everyone can dance,right? Even if you're just you
can dance in a chair, just youdon't have to
Ray Bolourtchi (20:56):
People worry how they're going to be perceived
when they're when they I mean,that nobody wants to have the
Elaine moment.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (21:02):
I understand that. I don't I
totally feel that. Of course. Soso I know. Like, no one wants to
look stupid, it goes back to wewant to be accepted and we want
to belong. And I'm not talkingabout dancing for anyone else
I'm really talking about youknow, you asked me what, what
would my advice be? And truly asunconventional as it is, it's
(21:24):
dancing, but dancing foryourself and in your own way,
right, moving your body. Andthere are specific movements and
specific ways things you can doto just like shortcut, the
conditioning and shortcut thelimitations. And I love showing
people how to do that, becauseit's freaking magic. They're
like, Oh, my God, I didn't knowI could do that. And it works
really, really well. But even ifyou never step into a studio
(21:46):
with another person, you canturn on music and find it for
yourself and not make it aboutthe steps like you don't need to
learn a tick tock dance. It'sit's allowing your own body to
find a rhythm and just kind ofmove to music. Because you start
connecting with you know what,what already lives in you, which
is a greater sense of confidenceand a greater sense of knowing.
(22:06):
And that's what we need, right?
And if it's not dance, thenmaybe it's moving in some other
way. Right? I'm not saying danceis the only way to do it. But we
we have what we need, it alreadylives here. And so anybody who
tells you, you need to go get itout there, it's out there, go
find it out there. They're fullof shit. It is. I believe this I
know this to be true. It is inevery single one of us what we
need to be our biggest andbrightest is here. It lives
(22:29):
here. We have to be able toaccess it and to remember who we
are. And to go be that puttingour edges out and not being so
afraid. And the more of us to doit. I do believe that's how
greater acceptance happens.
Ray Bolourtchi (22:45):
Amen, sister.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (22:47):
I am like it's Sunday. I am preaching
today. Um, anyway. So I feelobviously I'm pounding the table
on this topic. But I feel sostrongly about, you know, people
really feeling like it's safe toshow up more whole. And I'm
super excited to be bringingthis morning to my work because,
you know, again, this is a placeI would be afraid to be like,
(23:08):
oh, you should just come dancewith me and I'm like, Listen,
you really want to feel this.
Come on, let's go. So I thinkit's good.
Ray Bolourtchi (23:16):
Free the hips
Kimberly Bolourtchi (23:17):
free the hips. Thank you for joining me.
Ray Bolourtchi (23:22):
Thanks for having me.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (23:23):
Absolutely.
This is Kimberly BolourtchiYou've been listening to boldly
stated I would love to hear fromyou. If this resonates. If you
have an experience you want toshare with me please feel free
to send me a message and we willsee you on the show next time.
This is Kimberly Bolourtchi, and you're
listening to boldly stated,welcome to the podcast today,
I've invited Ray back, those ofyou who listen know Ray is my
spouse, and a pretty fun voiceto have on the podcast with me.
So although you don't know whatwe're talking about today, I'm
really excited that you're backin the chair. Thank you.
Ray Bolourtchi (00:20):
Thanks for having me back in the chair. I'm
excited.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (00:22):
Awesome. So what I want to talk about today
is this idea of imposterphenomenon. I've been
researching, as you know, togive a talk on the topic. And
the funny thing is, it's kind ofembarrassing, but when I started
researching it, I saw thisstatistic that 70% of adults
have this feeling of not beingable to show the world who they
(00:46):
really are. And 85% of highachieving women have the same
feeling that you know, theycould be found out to be a
fraud, or maybe they don't knowenough, or they're not qualified
enough to be doing the thingsthat they're doing. And my first
thought, as I was readingthrough this was, Oh, my God,
this like really sucks for thosepeople. Right? I did not
(01:07):
identify myself in this topic atall. And then the more I kept
researching and reading, Irecognized that I had a total
blind spot, because I more thanresonate with this idea. So
before I tell the story thatmade me realize what what it
was. I just want to ask you, doyou ever feel like this is
(01:32):
something you deal with in yourlife? Do you ever feel like
maybe you don't know enough? Youcan't show people who you really
are. You have to hide parts ofyourself to be accepted?
Ray Bolourtchi (01:40):
I call this the Congressman Santos syndrome.
Well, you said fraud. No. Yeah,no, I don't.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (01:50):
You don't?
Ray Bolourtchi (01:50):
I don't. Okay. I don't. You know, I'll be honest
with you. I think that there wasa part. There was a time, you
know, in my youth, you know, youhave insecurities and judgment.
I think that I would have jumpedon it and said, Yes.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (02:07):
Today, you just don't give a fuck do you?
Ray Bolourtchi (02:10):
I don't. Okay, it is what it is. You don't you
get what you see. Yeah. Andlet's do that.
Unknown (02:16):
I love that about you.
I will say though, I mean, Iwould have said the same about
me, right. I feel like I verymuch kind of live in my own
space. And I do my thing and Ibreak the rules. And I'm you
know, kind of a rebelreincarnate. But I'm going to be
honest, and say that I have toacknowledge that there have been
moments where I really canresonate. So back when I used to
(02:39):
dance competitively, one of thefirst St. Louis Starballs that
we ever had, I remember standingthere and I was wearing my very
skimpy costume that was, youknow, covered in Swarovski
crystals and my fishnet hose andmy sparkly earrings, and I had
so much makeup on that I thinkmy mom walked by and didn't even
recognize me. My hair was done,you know, and I'm getting ready
(03:02):
to go out and and do a Latindance, and I'm standing on deck.
And my thought in my head wasalways, I don't want anyone in
my professional world in thelegal world to ever see me do
this, because they won't respectme. They won't take me
seriously, right? Like, this ismy hidden secret. The fact that
I'm a dancer, the fact that Ilove, you know, getting all
(03:23):
dressed up and competing. And soI was standing there getting
ready to compete, and I lookedout because we're in freakin St.
Louis. Everybody knows everybodyin St. Louis, right? I look out
into the audience. And I see acolleague, and I'm about to walk
onto the floor. And I think tomyself, like I started having
that dual conversation in myhead where I think to myself,
(03:43):
like Oh, shit, I'm about to bediscovered. Like, people are
gonna know that I'm not who theythink I am. Because there's this
whole group of people out therewho think of me as a lawyer, and
I've worked really, really hardto, you know, have this
professional image and to lookprofessional and to sound smart
and professional, which all ofthose things are true. But I
never wanted anyone to see thisside of me. Why? Because it's
(04:06):
this belief, this deep seatedbelief that I can't show you who
I really am, which is exactlywhat imposter phenomenon is, by
the way, um,
Ray Bolourtchi (04:20):
but you're doing exactly that you're actually
showing who you are, becauseyou're on the dance floor, and
makeup and right, but compete,
Kimberly Bolourtchi (04:27):
but I had compartmentalized the things
right. So it was like, safe forme to do that. If nobody's told
me do that. I didn't want anyonein the world of my professional
world to see, you know, to seeme dance because I was scared
that they would think less ofme. And so I'm standing on deck
and I look out and I see thisperson and all of a sudden I
have this idea, which is like Ican't even it makes me almost
(04:51):
nauseous to think about this,but I have this idea before I
dance. I'm like, Well, I'm justgonna dance like a lawyer would
dance like I'm gonna be reallyprofessional. When I did, and so
I literally went out there andinstead of being free, and
instead of, you know, doing whatI normally do, which is just
(05:11):
like the whole world can see mysoul when I danced and I let it
all out. I went out there likeholding myself, like very tall
and very stiff and very like,I'm going to look like a
professional while I am dancingLatin dance.
Ray Bolourtchi (05:25):
So Latin dance, basically, you have to be a
provacatrix. Correct. But thenyou decided to dance like a
church lady.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (05:32):
I mean, yes,
Ray Bolourtchi (05:35):
all dolled up.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (05:37):
Well, I mean, it wasn't like, I picked
this, I'm going to look likethat. But in my head, it was I
can't be free. I have to. So Ilike pulled my lawyer persona
into my body. Even thoughexternally I looked completely
different. I danced like arobot. I had no there was no
passion, there was no fire,there was no connection. It was
literally like, oh my god, oh mygod, oh my god, you know, I'm
(06:01):
going to dance with my brain. SoI'm going to dance with how
smart I am, which was a completedisaster. But, but also
horrifying, right? Horrifying,to look back and recognize that
I was willing to sacrifice allthe work I put in to get ready
for competition, all the timeand passion that I devoted
(06:22):
toward being really, really goodat dancing and loving it my
whole entire life. I didn't feelsafe enough in the world to be
both things at once. Why isthat? It's because it's the
essence of the way we'reconditioned. Right? So we're
taught when we're young, werewere useful for me, like, like,
(06:43):
my by greatest quality,according to the people in my
life was my utility, right? Ican be counted on I'm really,
really resourceful. I'm reallyfreaking smart. So if you need
me to solve a problem for you, Iam that person. Right? Like from
the age of two on, people werelooking to me to be older than I
was wiser than I was. And I tooka lot of pride in that because
(07:04):
that's where people showed melove. Right? It was like, We
love you, we accept you, we wevalue you when you are being
useful. That is your that isyour gift. Unfortunately, right,
I internalized that because weall want to be loved and
accepted. And so I grew upfeeling like I need to always be
useful. I need to always behelpful, I need to always be
(07:27):
smart. And that's where mygreatest value comes from. And I
hid the creative, expressive,sassy, you know, really, really
sort of juicy parts of mypersonality. They were there, I
kept them alive, but they wereon the inside. And so I knew
that I needed to be the useful,the useful Kim the business can
(07:49):
the smart Kim to really beaccepted in the world, right.
And as a woman, particularly, Ithink it's very easy to fall
into this idea of like, Who doyou need me to be so I can get
where I want to go?
Ray Bolourtchi (08:01):
Now I understand what, what makes people feel
like an imposter.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (08:06):
Right?
Because you know, like, I knowthat when I'm just showing up
with part of myself, even ifit's the part you want to see,
even if it's the part you like alot, right? Even if it's the
part that makes everybody elsereally happy and really
comfortable. If I'm hiding mysparkles, and I'm hiding the
essence of myself, because Idon't think it's safe to show
(08:27):
that I'm not fully showing up.
And this is what creates thatfeeling in freaking 85% of the
people who admit it. And I thinkit's probably everybody at some
point even you not admitting itsitting across from me right
now. We're where we all feellike, it's not safe to show the
world who we truly are in all ofour parts and pieces, right? We
(08:51):
pick the pieces that are goingto serve us the best based on
the conditioning we've beengiven from the world. So if you
believe you're your mostvaluable, when you're useful,
you're going to be freakinguseful. If you believe your most
valuable when you're serving,you're going to be serving, you
know, whatever it is that yourparticular gift is that was
really, really pushed by thepeople around you. And a lot of
(09:16):
times it's based on what theyneed, not on where you're going
to shine the most is whereyou're going to show up and
where you're going to push. Andthe reason I think people hit a
ceiling, right in their careerin their life or in their
relationships is because theyhave this feeling inside of
like, I want more, I need more,I can do more, but they don't
know how to access it. Becausethe more is hidden inside of
(09:38):
them in that part that wasn'tuseful, or that wasn't
applauded, or that wasn'trewarded. And so they're like,
Well, shit, that's not importantenough, that's not worthy
enough, that part of me isn'tcool, and people aren't going to
like it. So I'm going to buryit. And then you have moments,
right? Like I did where theworlds are are literally staring
(10:00):
each other in the face. And youhave to decide, right? Am I
this? Or am I that or you say,Fuck this noise, I'm going to be
all of it. And that's ultimatelywhere I've arrived. But it's
taken me almost this entirejourney of my life to get there.
And I know there's so manypeople who feel like they're
(10:21):
still choosing their boxes andchoosing their roles.
Ray Bolourtchi (10:24):
So basically, what you're telling me is that
this was the triggering momentin your life, the moment that
you stepped on the dance floor.
That really made you have theSelf Realization.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (10:36):
No, I wish it was, um, it was it was
miserable. It was upsetting. Itwas scary. And I think all I
thought about afterward was thatI hoped this person didn't
recognize me. And I carried thatfear for a really, really long
time afterward. No, I mean, Ihave to be honest, since I'm
talking about this, this was nota story where it's like, oh,
(10:57):
there was this one event thatcatalyzed everything. For me, it
was a series of so manyuncomfortable situations over
the course of so many years.
Before, I think I finallyfigured out how to navigate it.
You know, another one that waslike, I look back now, and it
was one of my very favoritestories. Do you remember we were
(11:18):
arguing before the Supreme Courtof Missouri, we had that
criminal case? Yeah, that I wasarguing with you. And it was my
first time appearing before thecourt, you'd appeared many
times. And as is the tradition,an attorney has to interview or
not interview, um, it has tointroduce the you know, the
person appearing for the firsttime. And so do you remember
what you did to me? Yes. Whatdid you do?
Ray Bolourtchi (11:41):
So, I stood up in front of the court, and I
introduced you to the court. Andwhat I said to the court was,
you know, Kim Cofman is my lawpartner. And she also happens to
be my wife, which makes me anemployee. And also she is an
(12:01):
accomplished ballroom dancer.
And I remember turning over toyou and looking at you, and I
think that you, you faded intothe wall because you turned
white as chalk.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (12:13):
Yeah, that was, that was another one of
those moments, right? Where hereI am, I have to argue before the
Supreme Court, and of all thethings you could say about me,
my accomplishments, you chooseto start talking about dancing?
Well,
Ray Bolourtchi (12:27):
you know, I am that is probably one of the most
proud moments that I've ever hadwas watching you compete.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (12:35):
And I appreciate that very much. You
know, and in your defense, youdidn't know that I was having
this massive internal struggle.
No, because people who have thisfear of being discovered
absolutely don't talk about it.
Right. So you know, most peoplewho are listening to this you
can resonate, are not going togo have conversations about it
unless they know for suresomeone else feels the same way.
(12:55):
It's one of those things thathigh achieving people don't
typically go out and talk aboutour fears about
Ray Bolourtchi (13:01):
note on that note. Yeah. So you did your
argument. You got grilled? Youdid fantastic. Argument is over,
you then ran to the bathroom.
Yes. And then what happens? So
Kimberly Bolourtchi (13:14):
this is this is one of those moments
that was a catalyst, which iswhy I'm telling the story. So
after you embarrassed me,
Ray Bolourtchi (13:20):
I did not embarrass you.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (13:22):
I felt embarrassed. Okay, fine. I stand
corrected. I felt embarrassed,really humiliated and really
concerned again, excuse me, I'msharing my experience.
Ray Bolourtchi (13:33):
So you want some Kleenex,
Kimberly Bolourtchi (13:35):
I went to the restroom, I'm flipping him
off, which you guys can't see.
But um, I went to the restroomand in walks one of the female
justices, and we're both at thesink, she looks at me and she
says, Oh, my God. Tell me moreabout your dancing. Tell me more
about ballroom dancing. I havebeen wanting to have more in my
life for such a long time. Andlike no idea what I really
(13:56):
wanted to do, but listening toyour husband introduce you as a
dancer, knowing that you dothat. And this is so amazing.
Tell me, tell me more and tellme where I can go to get lessons
in this area. So we ended uphaving this conversation in the
bathroom that and, you know, beconnecting her with dance
lessons in in her area. And thatwas I think, the moment where I
(14:20):
walked out and I was like, Yougot to be kidding me. I've been
walking around, afraid thatthese two parts of my life could
never coexist in harmony. Andeven though I was still not
speaking to you, I was startingto realize that I had been
operating under this absolutefalse sense of what is possible.
Right. And I think I think thatwas the first time that I
(14:45):
started to breathe a little biteasier and realize that I don't
have to hide right and thatmaybe it's okay if I embrace all
of the parts and pieces and justshow up. And I think that Once I
started doing that, which I knowafter that point I did. My
dancing changed. My lawyeringchanged, my consulting changed.
(15:07):
My parenting changed. I thinkthat because I stopped spending
so much energy trying to projecta particular image in a
particular situation, to be whothe world wanted me to be or
what I thought I was supposed tobe, and just truly honored
myself, even though my gifts andtalents are so strangely,
(15:29):
meshed. I really started toshine.
Ray Bolourtchi (15:36):
All right. Well, I have a question for you. Let's
assume that you did not run intoa a Supreme Court justice, woman
Supreme Court justice in thebathroom and that conversation
had never occurred. Well, well,what Well, would you still stand
by what you just said,
Kimberly Bolourtchi (15:57):
I honestly believe I would have gotten
there. But that was the catalystthat was that was for sure. The
beginning, I think that it mighthave taken longer, it might have
been more situations. But nomatter how good you are
juggling, no matter how good ofa chameleon you are, and trust
me, I was one of the best. It'sunsustainable, to
(16:19):
compartmentalize yourself, andto choose your bits and pieces
and parts. And to expect thatyou're going to be able to
achieve your greatest impact,and to shine your brightest
light, and to be the mostincredible version of yourself
that you're here to possibly do.
Those things are incompatible.
(16:39):
You cannot minimize yourself andshrink yourself and hide parts
of yourself and expect thatyou're going to be able to be
here, and and shine in thebiggest brightest way. Because
you need all of your gifts, youreally do you need all of your
parts. And so I would havegotten there. I believe that
because I think this is reallymy journey. And part of what I'm
(16:59):
so good at helping leadersrealize and recognize and step
into how long it would havetaken me. I don't know
Ray Bolourtchi (17:07):
what so I'm gonna ask you another question.
So you had this moment. So forthose that haven't had that
moment, you know, what would yourecommend or suggest for the
look in the mirror, lookyourself in the eyes and say,
Fuck it, this is doing it.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (17:24):
So interestingly, though, the one
of the things that came up whileI was doing this research, that
is so full circle for me that italmost like blows my mind off my
shoulders, is I would tellpeople that they need to move
their bodies and that they needto dance. So for a really long
time, I've known that, you know,dance is it's therapeutic, in
(17:45):
addition to being liberating, inaddition to being freeing, it's,
it's the place where I couldalways express myself without
words. So whatever I was feelingwhatever I needed to express or
wanting to express, I didn'tneed words, I could just use my
body and let my emotions comeout through my movement. And so
it was, in a lot of ways themost free place for me, but I
have the benefit of beingtrained as a dancer from age
(18:07):
two, a lot of people when theythink of dancing, they're like,
Oh, my God, hell no, I can'tmove. I can't shake. I'm
uncoordinated. I can't this Ican't that it's like one of
those things that has so much.
There's actually so muchresistance right around it. And
yet, there's research now, asrecent as 2022 that just came
out of UCLA. That dance is runof Yeah, exactly. I need love
(18:29):
that the dance is one of thequickest ways for us to access
our inner world. And when I sayin a world, I'm talking about
all those things that we'vehidden inside of us that we
might not even know are there,right? Because it could happen
when you were really, reallyyoung. It can be it can be
trauma, it can be grief, it canbe somebody told you, you sucked
at something, and you vowed tonever do it again and you buried
(18:51):
it right. It's hard to know whatall we've hidden away over the
years. But when you allowyourself to move, and you allow
yourself to dance, and you allowyourself the freedom of letting
your body access what it knowsto be true, then you can really
connect all your parts andpieces. And so although there
(19:13):
are gazillions of self helpbooks out there, like imposter
phenomenon, or impostor syndromeis tons of resources about how
you can think your way out ofit. List your accomplishments
make, you know, make note of allthe good things you're doing
great. All of that is good. Butit's it's dealing with the
symptom. It's not dealing withthe fundamental problem, which
is we have conditioned ourselvesto not be hold and to not
(19:35):
believe that it's okay to behold.
Ray Bolourtchi (19:39):
I think I'm going to translate that and I'm
going to age myself, buthopefully a lot of the people
that are listening, if theyhaven't, they'll go and look at
the original. So what you'retelling me is that all the
people that I haven't done thatare living in the same town
where Footloose was shot,there's a city ordinance.
Dancing is prohibited but Youknow, the pinnacle of that show
(20:02):
is really or that movie isreally the end. And how all the
kids that that wanted to dance,they really wanted to get out
and dance and and so fullyexpressive. And I agree with you
watch Footloose.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (20:18):
It's a great movie. The original though
not the remakes. No. No, I mean,I think I think, you know, look,
we come onto this earth,everybody knowing how to move if
you watch it a toddler, youwatch a little kid with music,
when music comes on, they shake,they move, they wiggle like they
do. We all know how to dance.
It's, it's inherent in ourbodies. And it's only our
thoughts and ideas aboutappropriateness and about
(20:39):
whether we should or could orcan't or won't, that makes us
think we can't do it. And I'mnever going to win that
argument, right? When someonesays, I can't dance. I mean, I
know that everyone can dance,right? Even if you're just you
can dance in a chair, just youdon't have to
Ray Bolourtchi (20:56):
People worry how they're going to be perceived
when they're when they I mean,that nobody wants to have the
Elaine moment.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (21:02):
I understand that. I don't I
totally feel that. Of course. Soso I know. Like, no one wants to
look stupid, it goes back to wewant to be accepted and we want
to belong. And I'm not talkingabout dancing for anyone else
I'm really talking about youknow, you asked me what, what
would my advice be? And truly asunconventional as it is, it's
(21:24):
dancing, but dancing foryourself and in your own way,
right, moving your body. Andthere are specific movements and
specific ways things you can doto just like shortcut, the
conditioning and shortcut thelimitations. And I love showing
people how to do that, becauseit's freaking magic. They're
like, Oh, my God, I didn't knowI could do that. And it works
really, really well. But even ifyou never step into a studio
(21:46):
with another person, you canturn on music and find it for
yourself and not make it aboutthe steps like you don't need to
learn a tick tock dance. It'sit's allowing your own body to
find a rhythm and just kind ofmove to music. Because you start
connecting with you know what,what already lives in you, which
is a greater sense of confidenceand a greater sense of knowing.
(22:06):
And that's what we need, right?
And if it's not dance, thenmaybe it's moving in some other
way. Right? I'm not saying danceis the only way to do it. But we
we have what we need, it alreadylives here. And so anybody who
tells you, you need to go get itout there, it's out there, go
find it out there. They're fullof shit. It is. I believe this I
know this to be true. It is inevery single one of us what we
need to be our biggest andbrightest is here. It lives
(22:29):
here. We have to be able toaccess it and to remember who we
are. And to go be that puttingour edges out and not being so
afraid. And the more of us to doit. I do believe that's how
greater acceptance happens.
Ray Bolourtchi (22:45):
Amen, sister.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (22:47):
I am like it's Sunday. I am preaching
today. Um, anyway. So I feelobviously I'm pounding the table
on this topic. But I feel sostrongly about, you know, people
really feeling like it's safe toshow up more whole. And I'm
super excited to be bringingthis morning to my work because,
you know, again, this is a placeI would be afraid to be like,
(23:08):
oh, you should just come dancewith me and I'm like, Listen,
you really want to feel this.
Come on, let's go. So I thinkit's good.
Ray Bolourtchi (23:16):
Free the hips
Kimberly Bolourtchi (23:17):
free the hips. Thank you for joining me.
Ray Bolourtchi (23:22):
Thanks for having me.
Kimberly Bolourtchi (23:23):
Absolutely.
This is Kimberly BolourtchiYou've been listening to boldly
stated I would love to hear fromyou. If this resonates. If you
have an experience you want toshare with me please feel free
to send me a message and we willsee you on the show next time.
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