February 14, 2024 • 36 mins
Quotes about change: "Wisdom: May it come through me and not from me"
Silvia Martini shares her journey through profound loss and change in her life. She suffered losses that affected her greatly but was able to find new beginnings by staying open and curious. Silvia believes that by staying true to our values, we can overcome difficult times and grow personally. Her way of becoming resilient involves being kind to oneself and embracing the liminal spaces where transformation and wisdom occur.
Reflecting on the good and the bad, Silvia emphasizes that our experiences and the knowledge shared by others can bring light into our lives. She encourages us to live with purpose, nurture our growth, and make every day count by contributing positively to the world. All while being grateful for the experiences that shape us.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to.
So you Want to Move to theCountry and Raise Goats?
This podcast features storiesfrom people who have gone
through change.
We hope that their insightswill help you better understand
and deal with the changes inyour life.
I'm Peggy Kanick and, alongwith my co-host, Catherine
(00:21):
Greiva, we chat with insightfulpeople with interesting change
stories.
We hope you enjoy our podcast.
Sylvia Martini wears many hats.
She's well known for herexpertise in strategy and
governance, associationleadership and her
entrepreneurial endeavors.
Besides her very extensiveprofessional experience, Sylvia
(00:44):
also has experience and ajourney through grief and change
.
She shares her perspectives onsuffering profound loss, grief
and finding a healing path.
We're very happy to welcomeSylvia Martini to the podcast.
Sylvia is a longtimeentrepreneur that I'm familiar
(01:06):
with.
I first met Sylvia on a board.
Sylvia has real bench strengthin board governance.
But Sylvia also has a very richlife experience in change and I
think I'm going to just dropyou in there, Sylvia, and ask
you to just start telling ourlisteners about some of the
(01:29):
change you've experienced andhow you found your way through
some of the more difficultchanges in your life.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Well, thank you, Peggy and Catherine.
I'm absolutely delighted to bewith you today.
I have such respect for both ofyou and when we talk about
change, it was such aninvitation to be with you today.
Especially in the last numberof years, for me change has
become a point of great studyhow do I come through change
(02:01):
with meaning and intentionalityand wiser?
So then that became part of anexploration of my life, and I've
been keeping journals for 50years and I found them all, and
so I started to read through allthe journals and in those
journals I saw where thosechanges took place and some of
(02:24):
those changes.
And we had discussed verybriefly that there are three
areas of change.
So the first one was the changethat I chose to make, such as
moving from Toronto and avibrant career in Toronto when I
was a young woman falling inlove with a man from Saskatoon
and within literally six, sevenmonths, moving here, being
(02:48):
married, moving here and nowstarting a whole new career and
business and an entrepreneurialjourney.
That was a choice that I madeand walking that, and there are
things in those kinds of changesthat we have U stress versus E
stress.
So the U stress is I'm walkingtowards something.
(03:12):
It's a change and I'm out of mycomfort zone but I'm embracing
this opportunity and, yes, Irecognize it's uncomfortable.
And then E stress is distress.
It's like, wow, I wasn't quiteexpecting that.
I need to give myself a littlemore space.
So that is a change, that andthere are a number of those
(03:34):
changes that I made.
And the second type of change isa little bit more uncomfortable
and that is a change thatsomebody else makes and it
impacts you.
You are in the storm of thatchange, Like they make a change,
and you fall within that change.
And that is sometimesunexpected and it asks of you.
(03:58):
It asks you to go deeper andsaying, oh my, you know, like it
could have been from betrayalor it could have been from, you
know it could have been.
Somebody decided that they'regoing to quit a job, like your
partner decides they're going toand go into entrepreneurship or
whatever that.
But all of a sudden you have to, you have to go with that wave
(04:21):
of that change and you have todecide if you're going to accept
that change or you're not.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
You know, sylvia, I was just going to ask you before
you move to the third area.
The first is choice, yes.
And the second you said youhave to decide, which means you
have to choose what you're goingto do.
So, even though it was thrustupon you, was there a point in
the second area of change whereyou decide?
(04:47):
You felt, no, I do have somechoice here, maybe not what
triggered the change to happen,but perhaps how you responded to
it or what you did afterchanges upon you.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Oh, thank you for asking that Absolutely.
And in a case like that it spunoff a whole new career Because
I had to decide.
I mean, that was when you goback and you go into yourself
and then you have to start toreflect.
We talk about values, we talkabout our principles of our life
and you know, while we say inbusiness and in strategy, you
(05:20):
will be tested on your values,you will absolutely be tested.
And that's where those, that is, where those choice, comes in.
So it's not that it's notpainful.
On some of those scenarios theycan be extremely painful, but
they actually help to help youto define who you are and to
test those values and say doesthis still, is this still
(05:43):
meaningful for me?
And in that particular exampleof my life and there were, you
know, there are a number, I mean, that's just the way life is,
but it actually opened upquestions in my mind about, you
know, what worked here and whatdidn't.
And not to be defensive but tobe open-minded, and I think
(06:04):
that's really the importantelement is how do you be
open-minded and curious and whenthat takes you and how that
takes you down, that that path.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So that to me, sylvia , sounds very intentional that
when you're dealing with thatkind of change, that you're
actually Making yourself awareof what's happening around you
and being open-minded andcurious to actually see you what
are all the elements of thisparticular change and do my
(06:36):
values fit in, for example?
But having that curiosity, Ithink it sounds like that's very
intentional.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Absolutely and being really careful that one is not
also defensive, so and thatbecomes very protective, right.
So Honoring and then all ofthese changes, really honoring
and connecting with yourfeelings, so having the time for
reflection.
So what we hear oftentimes iswe need to be resilient, just
(07:07):
get back up and go at it.
And I've learned somethingreally important is that we it's
how do we take those spaces andhow do we become reflective in
those spaces, to Honor what'shappening but to ask deeper
questions of ourselves.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
So not to get into the defensive, but to get into
the curiosity and the opennessand piggy to your point,
absolutely, really intentionalso, sylvia, there I sense that
that there's a Foundation, thatthat you were able to stand on
in order to grow in these areasaround change I mean, you talk
(07:46):
about values probably being avery important part of that
foundation Are there.
Are there other things in yourlife that you've thought about
that was really the foundation?
Because we do not, we don't getborn and we're not just wise,
right we.
We have a foundation around usthat supports us and we build on
that.
So what was your foundation.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Such a deep question and a beautiful question.
I really so appreciate that.
I Feel really blessed that Ihave had the parents I've had
the family had, and their lifewould not easy.
So my dad was in concentrationcamp at Bergen-Balsen, as an
(08:29):
example, at 17 years of age andSurvived.
Mom had bombs falling down, youknow, at the end of the street
World War two.
They came to Canada as a young,a young couple from Italy, you
know, built up.
So you know, I would say that Ilearned some really important
values from them.
(08:49):
I think, mentally for me is I'ma, I'm very spiritual and I
question.
I Question a lot like things.
So I remember when our daughterpassed away and I Knew that it
(09:10):
wasn't psychology I needed, Ineeded to delve into some really
deep questions as why did thishappen to this beautiful child
into our family?
You know, did I what?
Where was, where was my creator?
Where was, like?
Did I not pray correctly?
Did I do something wrong?
Was I a bad person?
(09:31):
Like, what, like, why?
And what I remember was SayingGod, I Know you're with me, I
just can't talk to you right nowbecause I don't know what to
say.
I Don't even know what to sayso I, I Said but please just
(09:56):
stand by me as I walk this.
And I believe that there was aGreater depth of knowledge, that
I needed to walk.
I wasn't looking for Somejustification, I Wasn't looking
to have my pain torn away fromme and taken away.
What I was looking for was thejourney of trying to understand
(10:21):
so that I could go deeper, thatI could become a better human
being.
That that there was Because Iknew that.
I knew that my daughter's Lifehad meaning, that there was
purpose we all have, but thebiggest, the biggest A lesson I
(10:41):
learned was I walked with abeautiful who became a very dear
, dear friend, a spiritualdirector, and she said to me
something.
She said you know, sylvia, faithis not About knowing for sure,
faith is questioning, becauseyou have to question.
It's that, it is a process ofquestioning.
So we cannot know, but we canquestion and we can go down the
(11:07):
path of questioning, and I thinkthat, to me, has been so
incredibly valuable and myprayers have always been that I
am, that I learn, and what am Ito learn?
And to go deeper and to have myroots of my Experiences deep in
(11:29):
me, Become more, that there's abreath to my life and that
there's a giving to my life,that coming from that change is
value for others andunderstanding for myself.
Does that answer your question,peggy?
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, it does Thank you, sylvia, that is just as
you've described catastrophicchange.
And you know, mindfulnessdoesn't even to me quite
describe.
You know, in the depths oflosing a daughter, you know to
have that presence of mind, tothink about how I need to be
(12:19):
curious here, rather thanallowing yourself you must have
been angry, you must have hadmoments of anger and fear and
all of that, but to somehowbring yourself back to the
questions and the curiosity,that's a discipline, isn't it?
You must have been verydisciplined in your mind to not
(12:41):
allow yourself to go down thisblack hole that could consume
you.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Oh, catherine, you know that's really powerful and
I'm going to be honest with you.
What I did permit myself to dois that when I was broken and I
was totally broken when I lostour daughter every death is
different because I've also lostmy husband recently so there
was, you know, we go through ourelders and we go through this.
(13:09):
I think of that.
It comes into self-compassion.
I think this is a reallyimportant message in regard to
change.
Without self-compassion, we sayto each other oh, you know, you
know, just resilience, we needresilience, we need to get back
up and you know, just keep going.
(13:30):
And the world is reallyuncomfortable oftentimes with
that which is authentic.
So when my husband passed away,when COVID hit, it also
triggered once again the loss ofmy daughter and I went through
it.
And so we go through differentstages, but there were times
during that journey that wasabsolutely.
(13:51):
It felt like I was walking anightmare.
It felt how I describe it is itfelt like I fell off a cliff
and I got run over by a truck.
There was no painkillers andI'm in the hospital.
I've survived it somehow, but Ihave no painkillers and I have
in my total brokenness.
(14:12):
I have to make sense of a newworld.
That was not in my purview ofwhat I had planned and what I
had hoped, what I had strivedfor.
But how do we then come throughthat and look at with gratitude
, with appreciation and knowingthat these catastrophic changes
(14:36):
are the time and you and Italked about this that liminal
space for transformation.
That's where transformationtakes place.
The invitation fortransformation is in that space.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
So tell us about the liminal change.
Tell us about that?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Oh, you know, it was introduced to me by the famous
virtual guru and leader, richardRohr.
But liminal actually is anarchitectural term about the
transition, space transition, soa transition between spaces In
the spiritual sense and how heused it is that it is and it's
(15:24):
not necessarily, if I can say,getting comfortable in the
discomfort, but it isrecognizing that through this
dark night of the soul there isan opportunity for being quiet,
for reflection, for making thespace, not to just push it away
but to be in it, to understandit, to be aware of it and to
(15:50):
allow that gestation of a newbeing to come forward, of a new
change.
So an example every seven years, as I understand,
physiologically, we are totallydifferent people.
All of ourselves have changedover, they died off.
We have 100% new cells, we aretotally in a new body every
(16:15):
seven years.
So in that liminal space, it isabout that period of
understanding.
It's messy, it's dark, it'sreally painful, but not to push
it away.
And if this isn't aboutdepression, this is not about
going into clinical depression.
It is about understanding thatthis is a gestation period for
(16:40):
you to grow and slowly it comesand it happens, it absolutely
happens and you've emerged atotally different person, and so
as part of that, then, thatthere's an understanding that
this is not the end result, thisis not the end of the journey,
(17:03):
that you are going to emergedifferent and better.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
This is a hope and the courage to keep going that
you're not staying here.
This is the whole way to getyou to where you're going to be.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Absolutely so when we talk about change, and so, once
again, my curiosity has takenme down different paths of
learning about this liminalspace and about change and
transformation.
So when we look at change, werealize that there's the
psychological aspect of change.
(17:39):
And how are we changing andmaking sense of it
psychologically and goingthrough the process of it?
What do we need for support?
That's where our beautifulinner circle comes in Our
readings, our resources, ourmusic to help us through that.
There's the neurological change.
There's absolutely there's alot of trauma that can happen in
(18:00):
these catastrophic changes thatoccur and our brain is actually
changing, like during grief andcatastrophic change or trauma.
Our brain is actually changing.
That's impactingphysiologically how we're
reacting.
It's impacting psychologicallyhow we're seeing the world.
(18:21):
There's spiritual questionsthat are taking place.
When we recognize the integratednature of change, then we can
see that it is a process and weare literally neurologically
changing.
When we respect that, there'sgonna be parts of our brains and
(18:44):
the trauma center that areactually over activated and our
frontal lobes, our executivecenters, aren't working that
well at that point in time.
How do we respect that?
How do we recognize that inthat particular space that's
different from the other changes.
Right, how do we respect thatand how do we then know and
(19:06):
start to slowly work through?
So, when you go through thatliminal space, what you're
actually doing is you arereworking your brain as well,
right?
You're reading materials,you're listening to music,
you're engaging with friends,you're speaking knowledge, you
are being more compassionate,you're starting to see the world
(19:28):
differently.
You're literally changing yourbrain.
That's the neuroplasticity ofthe brain.
So that is more thephysiological things that are
taking place through change.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
So, sylvia, it sounds to me like this is a healing
space.
You know, when we think ofhealing, we think of quiet,
resolve or healing, but actuallyhealing can be pretty messy and
it can go forward and it can gobackward.
But as it sounds to me like theliminal space is a healing
space which ends up as a growth.
(20:01):
You're growing as well, as yousaid earlier.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
You emerge as this whole new being in a way,
absolutely how you see the world, how you engage in the world,
what's important to you, theappreciation, the depth of
appreciation.
You know it's an interestingthing and I will say this, that
a lot of people sometimes getuncomfortable with it.
(20:25):
I'm not afraid of depth, I'mnot afraid of it Because I know
that I'm living my life fully.
You know, I love the people, Ilove what I do.
The work that I do is reallymeaningful.
The people I serve is reallymeaningful.
I do it with my entire being.
The friends I have areconnections, the choices I make.
(20:48):
There's only I realize veryclearly that in all of these
changes, that in some cases, notthe end, it's a beginning of
new chapters that open up for usand we become more.
And as we age and we have theopportunity to age, we have the
(21:09):
opportunity to become more.
And therein lies, you know, theone aspect I do.
You know, that is extremelyintentional, has been for a long
time for me is always the questfor wisdom, and that is in and
of itself as part of thattransformation is how do we
intentionally grow in wisdomfrom what we learn, so that we
(21:34):
see change not as a threat, butwe see change in a learning, the
learning tools, and how weactually grow and become wiser
in our lives.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
You know, sylvia, it just seems that when you
describe change andtransformation change, the way
you've described it seems to bemore of a an end result, whereas
the transformation is more of ajourney that you never really
quite get there.
You don't get to this end phase.
(22:09):
Are you in and out of theliminal space?
Is that always kind of a partof where you are?
Or how do you view that now?
Are you always?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
seeking wisdom.
Well, I'm always seeking wisdom, you know, I'm always looking.
So, as an example, I was at theRamay Art Gallery yesterday and
there's this amazing show rightnow about, you know, for an
indigenous woman and her walkwith her grandmothers and she's
Metis and her walk inunderstanding her grandmothers
and the pain and the growth andwhat they've learned and the
(22:42):
wisdom that they've shared.
When I go through that show asan example, I am connecting with
her journey.
I haven't walked her journey,but I am going deeper because of
her journey.
So the liminal space is not aspace that you stay in.
It is a space that you knowthat in these and it's very much
(23:05):
so absolutely the opportunityis there in catastrophic
scenarios, but also in changes,where somebody else has made a
change, has decided on a changefor you, and it might be shorter
in that case and you'relearning some things.
And I've certainly been in thatspace.
I didn't know that it wasliminal at the time, but I took
(23:25):
the time to go through it andthat's where I then moved.
It was a reflective space.
I would say that that liminalspace is often, in my experience
, has come out of really morecatastrophic scenario, but that
doesn't mean you're nottransforming all the time,
You're always changing.
You have that opportunity.
And here's the thing that Iwant to say is change is
(23:46):
constant.
We're always changing.
Every day that I wake up, I'mdifferent than I was the day
before.
My cells have changed.
I'm changing.
Something's happened, the worldis changing, so change is
constant.
So we don't, you know, when wetry to secure ourselves, to say
we need safety, I don't wantanything to change.
(24:06):
It's not possible.
Try to change the ocean, Try tostill the ocean.
You know it's always changing.
It's part of it of saying what,within that, will I
intentionally contribute in ameaningful way to change in my
own life, in the life of thosethat I love, what changes
(24:27):
occurred?
That is not positive, Because Ihave not been, you know, I have
been unaware of it, but nowit's come to me and I have an
opportunity for change.
It might have been my doingthat has caused problem for
someone else, right?
So how am I going to change forthat?
So it's really about beingreflective and intentional in
(24:47):
your life, knowing that, likethe ocean, we are always
changing and the world around usis always changing.
Are we a positive contributorto that or are we not.
Are we going to be intentionalabout how that is going to work
within our life or are we not Atthe end of it all?
I remember I will just sharethis.
I was probably about.
You know, I was a deep child,like I did a lot of thought, but
(25:11):
I'm really philosophical.
But you know, I think I was ingrade seven.
I remember looking in themirror one morning and there was
some stuff had gone on atschool as a young girl and all
that.
And I remember saying you know,Sylvia, every day you're going
to look in the mirror and you'regoing to say you know, was this
a good day?
Did you make the most of thisday?
(25:31):
Do you like who you are?
That was a big question.
Do you like who you are?
And if you don't, then you needto think about it and what are
you going to change about that.
So that was more on theintentional side.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
What are your thoughts about leveraging all
that energy from liminal changeto make change in a wider
community?
Is that even something thatcould happen?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
I don't know if you can like.
There are times that thingshappen that are catastrophic and
I don't know if the communitycan go through a liminal change.
As an example.
I think we go through changeand it's forced upon us People.
You know, oftentimespolitically, people will want to
see change at that point.
It's almost too.
It's very difficult to makechange at that point because
(26:20):
people like the security, andwhen it's when they're, they're
seeing the discomfort thatthey're saying I want change.
I don't know, peggy, if I'munderstanding you correctly.
If a community can go throughliminal change, I think it is
very personal.
I remember at one point when myhusband was still with me, I
went through.
(26:41):
It was a, it was a verydifficult time and it was a big
change that had taken place.
And I remember saying to himand I didn't understand the
liminal change, but I was goingthrough it, I was entering it
and I said to him you know, rick, he said are you okay?
I said I don't know if I'm okay.
(27:02):
I think I'm going to be okay,but I'm going to need to be
quiet for a while.
And I said I'm inviting you toknock on the door in about a
month's time If you see thatthere's a problem and you can
inquire and say, are you okay,do you need help?
And I will let you know.
I'm going to answer youhonestly and in six months I'm
(27:22):
still there.
Then I'm inviting you that youcan say Sylvia, you know we need
to do something about itbecause I've gone down a rabbit
hole but I can't get out right.
So you know, I really respectedRick for honoring that and you
know, month one was dark.
I mean, it was not easy and Idid what I, you know.
But I'm really committed,absolutely committed, that I'm
(27:47):
not going to do numbingactivities, like that's another
thing, because numbingactivities do not.
They do not promotetransformation, they don't
promote growth, they promotesafety and hiding and burying
and hoping that it'll go awayand it doesn't go away.
So you have to face that.
(28:08):
You can't, you have to face it.
So, but anyway, as it turnedout in that particular instance
you know he goes knock, knock,are you okay?
Yep, I'm okay, it's happening.
But I needed to reflect and youknow, coming through that it was
really amazing that they openedup more questions on things and
(28:32):
then opened up newopportunities to see new ways of
looking at things and startingto make change in community
where I wanted to see change incommunity and on Ally's illness
as an example, when she passedaway I knew that I could not go
out and do what was meant to bedone in a change way because I
(28:56):
was angry, because I was hurt,because I was confused.
I couldn't but I had to honorthat.
Those are the feelings I washaving and processing and then
now I'm able to start to makechange, but in a positive way
and in a way that's meaningful,that does make a difference.
(29:19):
That's asking the questionstrategically.
So I think back to yourquestion, peggy.
I think that the change has tocome from within with, from a
good intention, from thequestioning.
It has to get around the tableswhen we're at boardroom tables
in community and indecision-making roles, where we
(29:44):
ask those really meaningfulquestions.
And I'll be afraid of it toopen up and be open-minded for
the possibility of change.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah, because at the end of a liminal change process,
as you say, we grow in wisdom,so that wisdom is something that
can be shared or is somethingthat you can bring into
decision-making and into thecommunity.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Absolutely.
I think change is a precursorto wisdom.
It is.
You cannot become wise withoutthe process of the experience
that you have, and how thathappens is through change, right
, so change is a catalyst.
(30:34):
It's a catalyst, it's a greatdiscussion.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
What are you curious about today, Sylvia?
What burning questions do youhave that you're searching for
today?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Well, I know that from the internal side, which is
so it is so rewarding, is howwhat I've gone through, like the
work that has gestated and thetransformations that have taken
place through the change, howthat is now funneling in a
(31:13):
meaningful way, and theopportunities that and when I
say opportunities, every daythere's opportunity, like our
opportunity to chat today, thosemeaningful connections that we
have.
How do we enrich thosemeaningful connections that we,
with the knowledge that I havetoday?
The burning question is how doyou take this forward now and
(31:39):
not necessarily because I don'tgo with ego, like it's not an
ego thing, it is how do you takethis and create the space and
the energy for thoughtfuldiscussions to take place where
people are open-minded?
How do we encourage our youngpeople?
And when I think about todayaddictions and I think about
(32:09):
mental health and the challenge,depression, the impact of
social media on our young people, the burning question for me
and change is how can I be afacilitator, a bridge, a thought
(32:29):
provoker, a thought influencerfor a more meaningful life for
these beautiful young people whohave not yet experienced their
life?
But I have a perspective, likemy dad did and he shared with me
quietly how do you become athought influencer for young
(32:53):
people that they can start toprocess, neurologically,
spiritually, a courage, becauseit takes courage right.
It takes courage to see theworld with possibility.
How do we do that?
And that to me, is a really bigone, because I think that's
(33:14):
critically important.
How do I help my grandchildren?
How do I help my beautiful andamazing daughter and family?
How do I help those see theworld and think more critically
and think more thoughtfully, butthink with an open-mindedness?
(33:35):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
You know I was telling you earlier that I've
always been amazed at how you'realways put together and you're
always happy or appear to be andreally shining, and you know it
just done the hard work so thatit actually comes from within
and it just exudes from you.
(33:58):
It truly does.
Every time I see you you are abeam of light and it's been the
hard work that I can't evencomprehend that you've gone
through, but have today gottenjust a small glimpse into how
you've made that experience,that liminal transformation?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Thank you, thank you, and each of us are treasures.
Like each of us, our life is atreasure and you know, it's
about honoring that.
I think it's really abouthonoring that, and I go back to
when I was in grade seven and Ilooked in the mirror.
I don't want to look back on mylife and say, you know, I want
to know that when it's my time,I can say, okay, I've done my
(34:47):
best.
I may not have been perfect and,my gosh, it certainly was messy
sometimes, but you know, I'veembraced it and I've lived my
life and I'm so grateful for theexperiences that I've had and
for what I've gone through,because I've learned so much.
And may it come Now this is thebig thing, if I'm going to
leave you with this.
(35:07):
May it come through me and notfrom me.
And through me means may itcome from the experiences and
everything that I've learned andbeyond, and the wisdom and the
beautiful people who'vecontributed to my life, but also
who are walking with me in lifewith their own experiences, and
may it come through us to agreater good.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
If you've learned just one thing about change
while listening to this podcast,please subscribe on Apple or
Spotify and share with friendthis episode recorded via Zoom
Audio.
Producers Peggy Keneck andCatherine Greiba.
Executive producer.
Keneck Leadership Advisory.
Theme music La Pompée writtenby Chris Harrington, music
(35:55):
publisher in Votto Market.
For information on this podcast, please visit wwwgetyourgoatca.
Welcome to.
So you Want to Move to theCountry and Raise Goats?
This podcast features storiesfrom people who have gone
through change.
We hope that their insightswill help you better understand
and deal with the changes inyour life.
I'm Peggy Kanick and, alongwith my co-host, Catherine
(00:21):
Greiva, we chat with insightfulpeople with interesting change
stories.
We hope you enjoy our podcast.
Sylvia Martini wears many hats.
She's well known for herexpertise in strategy and
governance, associationleadership and her
entrepreneurial endeavors.
Besides her very extensiveprofessional experience, Sylvia
(00:44):
also has experience and ajourney through grief and change
.
She shares her perspectives onsuffering profound loss, grief
and finding a healing path.
We're very happy to welcomeSylvia Martini to the podcast.
Sylvia is a longtimeentrepreneur that I'm familiar
(01:06):
with.
I first met Sylvia on a board.
Sylvia has real bench strengthin board governance.
But Sylvia also has a very richlife experience in change and I
think I'm going to just dropyou in there, Sylvia, and ask
you to just start telling ourlisteners about some of the
(01:29):
change you've experienced andhow you found your way through
some of the more difficultchanges in your life.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Well, thank you, Peggy and Catherine.
I'm absolutely delighted to bewith you today.
I have such respect for both ofyou and when we talk about
change, it was such aninvitation to be with you today.
Especially in the last numberof years, for me change has
become a point of great studyhow do I come through change
(02:01):
with meaning and intentionalityand wiser?
So then that became part of anexploration of my life, and I've
been keeping journals for 50years and I found them all, and
so I started to read through allthe journals and in those
journals I saw where thosechanges took place and some of
(02:24):
those changes.
And we had discussed verybriefly that there are three
areas of change.
So the first one was the changethat I chose to make, such as
moving from Toronto and avibrant career in Toronto when I
was a young woman falling inlove with a man from Saskatoon
and within literally six, sevenmonths, moving here, being
(02:48):
married, moving here and nowstarting a whole new career and
business and an entrepreneurialjourney.
That was a choice that I madeand walking that, and there are
things in those kinds of changesthat we have U stress versus E
stress.
So the U stress is I'm walkingtowards something.
(03:12):
It's a change and I'm out of mycomfort zone but I'm embracing
this opportunity and, yes, Irecognize it's uncomfortable.
And then E stress is distress.
It's like, wow, I wasn't quiteexpecting that.
I need to give myself a littlemore space.
So that is a change, that andthere are a number of those
(03:34):
changes that I made.
And the second type of change isa little bit more uncomfortable
and that is a change thatsomebody else makes and it
impacts you.
You are in the storm of thatchange, Like they make a change,
and you fall within that change.
And that is sometimesunexpected and it asks of you.
(03:58):
It asks you to go deeper andsaying, oh my, you know, like it
could have been from betrayalor it could have been from, you
know it could have been.
Somebody decided that they'regoing to quit a job, like your
partner decides they're going toand go into entrepreneurship or
whatever that.
But all of a sudden you have to, you have to go with that wave
(04:21):
of that change and you have todecide if you're going to accept
that change or you're not.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
You know, sylvia, I was just going to ask you before
you move to the third area.
The first is choice, yes.
And the second you said youhave to decide, which means you
have to choose what you're goingto do.
So, even though it was thrustupon you, was there a point in
the second area of change whereyou decide?
(04:47):
You felt, no, I do have somechoice here, maybe not what
triggered the change to happen,but perhaps how you responded to
it or what you did afterchanges upon you.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Oh, thank you for asking that Absolutely.
And in a case like that it spunoff a whole new career Because
I had to decide.
I mean, that was when you goback and you go into yourself
and then you have to start toreflect.
We talk about values, we talkabout our principles of our life
and you know, while we say inbusiness and in strategy, you
(05:20):
will be tested on your values,you will absolutely be tested.
And that's where those, that is, where those choice, comes in.
So it's not that it's notpainful.
On some of those scenarios theycan be extremely painful, but
they actually help to help youto define who you are and to
test those values and say doesthis still, is this still
(05:43):
meaningful for me?
And in that particular exampleof my life and there were, you
know, there are a number, I mean, that's just the way life is,
but it actually opened upquestions in my mind about, you
know, what worked here and whatdidn't.
And not to be defensive but tobe open-minded, and I think
(06:04):
that's really the importantelement is how do you be
open-minded and curious and whenthat takes you and how that
takes you down, that that path.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So that to me, sylvia , sounds very intentional that
when you're dealing with thatkind of change, that you're
actually Making yourself awareof what's happening around you
and being open-minded andcurious to actually see you what
are all the elements of thisparticular change and do my
(06:36):
values fit in, for example?
But having that curiosity, Ithink it sounds like that's very
intentional.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Absolutely and being really careful that one is not
also defensive, so and thatbecomes very protective, right.
So Honoring and then all ofthese changes, really honoring
and connecting with yourfeelings, so having the time for
reflection.
So what we hear oftentimes iswe need to be resilient, just
(07:07):
get back up and go at it.
And I've learned somethingreally important is that we it's
how do we take those spaces andhow do we become reflective in
those spaces, to Honor what'shappening but to ask deeper
questions of ourselves.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
So not to get into the defensive, but to get into
the curiosity and the opennessand piggy to your point,
absolutely, really intentionalso, sylvia, there I sense that
that there's a Foundation, thatthat you were able to stand on
in order to grow in these areasaround change I mean, you talk
(07:46):
about values probably being avery important part of that
foundation Are there.
Are there other things in yourlife that you've thought about
that was really the foundation?
Because we do not, we don't getborn and we're not just wise,
right we.
We have a foundation around usthat supports us and we build on
that.
So what was your foundation.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Such a deep question and a beautiful question.
I really so appreciate that.
I Feel really blessed that Ihave had the parents I've had
the family had, and their lifewould not easy.
So my dad was in concentrationcamp at Bergen-Balsen, as an
(08:29):
example, at 17 years of age andSurvived.
Mom had bombs falling down, youknow, at the end of the street
World War two.
They came to Canada as a young,a young couple from Italy, you
know, built up.
So you know, I would say that Ilearned some really important
values from them.
(08:49):
I think, mentally for me is I'ma, I'm very spiritual and I
question.
I Question a lot like things.
So I remember when our daughterpassed away and I Knew that it
(09:10):
wasn't psychology I needed, Ineeded to delve into some really
deep questions as why did thishappen to this beautiful child
into our family?
You know, did I what?
Where was, where was my creator?
Where was, like?
Did I not pray correctly?
Did I do something wrong?
Was I a bad person?
(09:31):
Like, what, like, why?
And what I remember was SayingGod, I Know you're with me, I
just can't talk to you right nowbecause I don't know what to
say.
I Don't even know what to sayso I, I Said but please just
(09:56):
stand by me as I walk this.
And I believe that there was aGreater depth of knowledge, that
I needed to walk.
I wasn't looking for Somejustification, I Wasn't looking
to have my pain torn away fromme and taken away.
What I was looking for was thejourney of trying to understand
(10:21):
so that I could go deeper, thatI could become a better human
being.
That that there was Because Iknew that.
I knew that my daughter's Lifehad meaning, that there was
purpose we all have, but thebiggest, the biggest A lesson I
(10:41):
learned was I walked with abeautiful who became a very dear
, dear friend, a spiritualdirector, and she said to me
something.
She said you know, sylvia, faithis not About knowing for sure,
faith is questioning, becauseyou have to question.
It's that, it is a process ofquestioning.
So we cannot know, but we canquestion and we can go down the
(11:07):
path of questioning, and I thinkthat, to me, has been so
incredibly valuable and myprayers have always been that I
am, that I learn, and what am Ito learn?
And to go deeper and to have myroots of my Experiences deep in
(11:29):
me, Become more, that there's abreath to my life and that
there's a giving to my life,that coming from that change is
value for others andunderstanding for myself.
Does that answer your question,peggy?
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Yeah, it does Thank you, sylvia, that is just as
you've described catastrophicchange.
And you know, mindfulnessdoesn't even to me quite
describe.
You know, in the depths oflosing a daughter, you know to
have that presence of mind, tothink about how I need to be
(12:19):
curious here, rather thanallowing yourself you must have
been angry, you must have hadmoments of anger and fear and
all of that, but to somehowbring yourself back to the
questions and the curiosity,that's a discipline, isn't it?
You must have been verydisciplined in your mind to not
(12:41):
allow yourself to go down thisblack hole that could consume
you.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Oh, catherine, you know that's really powerful and
I'm going to be honest with you.
What I did permit myself to dois that when I was broken and I
was totally broken when I lostour daughter every death is
different because I've also lostmy husband recently so there
was, you know, we go through ourelders and we go through this.
(13:09):
I think of that.
It comes into self-compassion.
I think this is a reallyimportant message in regard to
change.
Without self-compassion, we sayto each other oh, you know, you
know, just resilience, we needresilience, we need to get back
up and you know, just keep going.
(13:30):
And the world is reallyuncomfortable oftentimes with
that which is authentic.
So when my husband passed away,when COVID hit, it also
triggered once again the loss ofmy daughter and I went through
it.
And so we go through differentstages, but there were times
during that journey that wasabsolutely.
(13:51):
It felt like I was walking anightmare.
It felt how I describe it is itfelt like I fell off a cliff
and I got run over by a truck.
There was no painkillers andI'm in the hospital.
I've survived it somehow, but Ihave no painkillers and I have
in my total brokenness.
(14:12):
I have to make sense of a newworld.
That was not in my purview ofwhat I had planned and what I
had hoped, what I had strivedfor.
But how do we then come throughthat and look at with gratitude
, with appreciation and knowingthat these catastrophic changes
(14:36):
are the time and you and Italked about this that liminal
space for transformation.
That's where transformationtakes place.
The invitation fortransformation is in that space.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
So tell us about the liminal change.
Tell us about that?
Speaker 2 (14:59):
Oh, you know, it was introduced to me by the famous
virtual guru and leader, richardRohr.
But liminal actually is anarchitectural term about the
transition, space transition, soa transition between spaces In
the spiritual sense and how heused it is that it is and it's
(15:24):
not necessarily, if I can say,getting comfortable in the
discomfort, but it isrecognizing that through this
dark night of the soul there isan opportunity for being quiet,
for reflection, for making thespace, not to just push it away
but to be in it, to understandit, to be aware of it and to
(15:50):
allow that gestation of a newbeing to come forward, of a new
change.
So an example every seven years, as I understand,
physiologically, we are totallydifferent people.
All of ourselves have changedover, they died off.
We have 100% new cells, we aretotally in a new body every
(16:15):
seven years.
So in that liminal space, it isabout that period of
understanding.
It's messy, it's dark, it'sreally painful, but not to push
it away.
And if this isn't aboutdepression, this is not about
going into clinical depression.
It is about understanding thatthis is a gestation period for
(16:40):
you to grow and slowly it comesand it happens, it absolutely
happens and you've emerged atotally different person, and so
as part of that, then, thatthere's an understanding that
this is not the end result, thisis not the end of the journey,
(17:03):
that you are going to emergedifferent and better.
Speaker 3 (17:08):
This is a hope and the courage to keep going that
you're not staying here.
This is the whole way to getyou to where you're going to be.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Absolutely so when we talk about change, and so, once
again, my curiosity has takenme down different paths of
learning about this liminalspace and about change and
transformation.
So when we look at change, werealize that there's the
psychological aspect of change.
(17:39):
And how are we changing andmaking sense of it
psychologically and goingthrough the process of it?
What do we need for support?
That's where our beautifulinner circle comes in Our
readings, our resources, ourmusic to help us through that.
There's the neurological change.
There's absolutely there's alot of trauma that can happen in
(18:00):
these catastrophic changes thatoccur and our brain is actually
changing, like during grief andcatastrophic change or trauma.
Our brain is actually changing.
That's impactingphysiologically how we're
reacting.
It's impacting psychologicallyhow we're seeing the world.
(18:21):
There's spiritual questionsthat are taking place.
When we recognize the integratednature of change, then we can
see that it is a process and weare literally neurologically
changing.
When we respect that, there'sgonna be parts of our brains and
(18:44):
the trauma center that areactually over activated and our
frontal lobes, our executivecenters, aren't working that
well at that point in time.
How do we respect that?
How do we recognize that inthat particular space that's
different from the other changes.
Right, how do we respect thatand how do we then know and
(19:06):
start to slowly work through?
So, when you go through thatliminal space, what you're
actually doing is you arereworking your brain as well,
right?
You're reading materials,you're listening to music,
you're engaging with friends,you're speaking knowledge, you
are being more compassionate,you're starting to see the world
(19:28):
differently.
You're literally changing yourbrain.
That's the neuroplasticity ofthe brain.
So that is more thephysiological things that are
taking place through change.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
So, sylvia, it sounds to me like this is a healing
space.
You know, when we think ofhealing, we think of quiet,
resolve or healing, but actuallyhealing can be pretty messy and
it can go forward and it can gobackward.
But as it sounds to me like theliminal space is a healing
space which ends up as a growth.
(20:01):
You're growing as well, as yousaid earlier.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
You emerge as this whole new being in a way,
absolutely how you see the world, how you engage in the world,
what's important to you, theappreciation, the depth of
appreciation.
You know it's an interestingthing and I will say this, that
a lot of people sometimes getuncomfortable with it.
(20:25):
I'm not afraid of depth, I'mnot afraid of it Because I know
that I'm living my life fully.
You know, I love the people, Ilove what I do.
The work that I do is reallymeaningful.
The people I serve is reallymeaningful.
I do it with my entire being.
The friends I have areconnections, the choices I make.
(20:48):
There's only I realize veryclearly that in all of these
changes, that in some cases, notthe end, it's a beginning of
new chapters that open up for usand we become more.
And as we age and we have theopportunity to age, we have the
(21:09):
opportunity to become more.
And therein lies, you know, theone aspect I do.
You know, that is extremelyintentional, has been for a long
time for me is always the questfor wisdom, and that is in and
of itself as part of thattransformation is how do we
intentionally grow in wisdomfrom what we learn, so that we
(21:34):
see change not as a threat, butwe see change in a learning, the
learning tools, and how weactually grow and become wiser
in our lives.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
You know, sylvia, it just seems that when you
describe change andtransformation change, the way
you've described it seems to bemore of a an end result, whereas
the transformation is more of ajourney that you never really
quite get there.
You don't get to this end phase.
(22:09):
Are you in and out of theliminal space?
Is that always kind of a partof where you are?
Or how do you view that now?
Are you always?
Speaker 2 (22:19):
seeking wisdom.
Well, I'm always seeking wisdom, you know, I'm always looking.
So, as an example, I was at theRamay Art Gallery yesterday and
there's this amazing show rightnow about, you know, for an
indigenous woman and her walkwith her grandmothers and she's
Metis and her walk inunderstanding her grandmothers
and the pain and the growth andwhat they've learned and the
(22:42):
wisdom that they've shared.
When I go through that show asan example, I am connecting with
her journey.
I haven't walked her journey,but I am going deeper because of
her journey.
So the liminal space is not aspace that you stay in.
It is a space that you knowthat in these and it's very much
(23:05):
so absolutely the opportunityis there in catastrophic
scenarios, but also in changes,where somebody else has made a
change, has decided on a changefor you, and it might be shorter
in that case and you'relearning some things.
And I've certainly been in thatspace.
I didn't know that it wasliminal at the time, but I took
(23:25):
the time to go through it andthat's where I then moved.
It was a reflective space.
I would say that that liminalspace is often, in my experience
, has come out of really morecatastrophic scenario, but that
doesn't mean you're nottransforming all the time,
You're always changing.
You have that opportunity.
And here's the thing that Iwant to say is change is
(23:46):
constant.
We're always changing.
Every day that I wake up, I'mdifferent than I was the day
before.
My cells have changed.
I'm changing.
Something's happened, the worldis changing, so change is
constant.
So we don't, you know, when wetry to secure ourselves, to say
we need safety, I don't wantanything to change.
(24:06):
It's not possible.
Try to change the ocean, Try tostill the ocean.
You know it's always changing.
It's part of it of saying what,within that, will I
intentionally contribute in ameaningful way to change in my
own life, in the life of thosethat I love, what changes
(24:27):
occurred?
That is not positive, Because Ihave not been, you know, I have
been unaware of it, but nowit's come to me and I have an
opportunity for change.
It might have been my doingthat has caused problem for
someone else, right?
So how am I going to change forthat?
So it's really about beingreflective and intentional in
(24:47):
your life, knowing that, likethe ocean, we are always
changing and the world around usis always changing.
Are we a positive contributorto that or are we not.
Are we going to be intentionalabout how that is going to work
within our life or are we not Atthe end of it all?
I remember I will just sharethis.
I was probably about.
You know, I was a deep child,like I did a lot of thought, but
(25:11):
I'm really philosophical.
But you know, I think I was ingrade seven.
I remember looking in themirror one morning and there was
some stuff had gone on atschool as a young girl and all
that.
And I remember saying you know,Sylvia, every day you're going
to look in the mirror and you'regoing to say you know, was this
a good day?
Did you make the most of thisday?
(25:31):
Do you like who you are?
That was a big question.
Do you like who you are?
And if you don't, then you needto think about it and what are
you going to change about that.
So that was more on theintentional side.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
What are your thoughts about leveraging all
that energy from liminal changeto make change in a wider
community?
Is that even something thatcould happen?
Speaker 2 (25:57):
I don't know if you can like.
There are times that thingshappen that are catastrophic and
I don't know if the communitycan go through a liminal change.
As an example.
I think we go through changeand it's forced upon us People.
You know, oftentimespolitically, people will want to
see change at that point.
It's almost too.
It's very difficult to makechange at that point because
(26:20):
people like the security, andwhen it's when they're, they're
seeing the discomfort thatthey're saying I want change.
I don't know, peggy, if I'munderstanding you correctly.
If a community can go throughliminal change, I think it is
very personal.
I remember at one point when myhusband was still with me, I
went through.
(26:41):
It was a, it was a verydifficult time and it was a big
change that had taken place.
And I remember saying to himand I didn't understand the
liminal change, but I was goingthrough it, I was entering it
and I said to him you know, rick, he said are you okay?
I said I don't know if I'm okay.
(27:02):
I think I'm going to be okay,but I'm going to need to be
quiet for a while.
And I said I'm inviting you toknock on the door in about a
month's time If you see thatthere's a problem and you can
inquire and say, are you okay,do you need help?
And I will let you know.
I'm going to answer youhonestly and in six months I'm
(27:22):
still there.
Then I'm inviting you that youcan say Sylvia, you know we need
to do something about itbecause I've gone down a rabbit
hole but I can't get out right.
So you know, I really respectedRick for honoring that and you
know, month one was dark.
I mean, it was not easy and Idid what I, you know.
But I'm really committed,absolutely committed, that I'm
(27:47):
not going to do numbingactivities, like that's another
thing, because numbingactivities do not.
They do not promotetransformation, they don't
promote growth, they promotesafety and hiding and burying
and hoping that it'll go awayand it doesn't go away.
So you have to face that.
(28:08):
You can't, you have to face it.
So, but anyway, as it turnedout in that particular instance
you know he goes knock, knock,are you okay?
Yep, I'm okay, it's happening.
But I needed to reflect and youknow, coming through that it was
really amazing that they openedup more questions on things and
(28:32):
then opened up newopportunities to see new ways of
looking at things and startingto make change in community
where I wanted to see change incommunity and on Ally's illness
as an example, when she passedaway I knew that I could not go
out and do what was meant to bedone in a change way because I
(28:56):
was angry, because I was hurt,because I was confused.
I couldn't but I had to honorthat.
Those are the feelings I washaving and processing and then
now I'm able to start to makechange, but in a positive way
and in a way that's meaningful,that does make a difference.
(29:19):
That's asking the questionstrategically.
So I think back to yourquestion, peggy.
I think that the change has tocome from within with, from a
good intention, from thequestioning.
It has to get around the tableswhen we're at boardroom tables
in community and indecision-making roles, where we
(29:44):
ask those really meaningfulquestions.
And I'll be afraid of it toopen up and be open-minded for
the possibility of change.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
Yeah, because at the end of a liminal change process,
as you say, we grow in wisdom,so that wisdom is something that
can be shared or is somethingthat you can bring into
decision-making and into thecommunity.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Absolutely.
I think change is a precursorto wisdom.
It is.
You cannot become wise withoutthe process of the experience
that you have, and how thathappens is through change, right
, so change is a catalyst.
(30:34):
It's a catalyst, it's a greatdiscussion.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
What are you curious about today, Sylvia?
What burning questions do youhave that you're searching for
today?
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Well, I know that from the internal side, which is
so it is so rewarding, is howwhat I've gone through, like the
work that has gestated and thetransformations that have taken
place through the change, howthat is now funneling in a
(31:13):
meaningful way, and theopportunities that and when I
say opportunities, every daythere's opportunity, like our
opportunity to chat today, thosemeaningful connections that we
have.
How do we enrich thosemeaningful connections that we,
with the knowledge that I havetoday?
The burning question is how doyou take this forward now and
(31:39):
not necessarily because I don'tgo with ego, like it's not an
ego thing, it is how do you takethis and create the space and
the energy for thoughtfuldiscussions to take place where
people are open-minded?
How do we encourage our youngpeople?
And when I think about todayaddictions and I think about
(32:09):
mental health and the challenge,depression, the impact of
social media on our young people, the burning question for me
and change is how can I be afacilitator, a bridge, a thought
(32:29):
provoker, a thought influencerfor a more meaningful life for
these beautiful young people whohave not yet experienced their
life?
But I have a perspective, likemy dad did and he shared with me
quietly how do you become athought influencer for young
(32:53):
people that they can start toprocess, neurologically,
spiritually, a courage, becauseit takes courage right.
It takes courage to see theworld with possibility.
How do we do that?
And that to me, is a really bigone, because I think that's
(33:14):
critically important.
How do I help my grandchildren?
How do I help my beautiful andamazing daughter and family?
How do I help those see theworld and think more critically
and think more thoughtfully, butthink with an open-mindedness?
(33:35):
That's it.
Speaker 3 (33:37):
You know I was telling you earlier that I've
always been amazed at how you'realways put together and you're
always happy or appear to be andreally shining, and you know it
just done the hard work so thatit actually comes from within
and it just exudes from you.
(33:58):
It truly does.
Every time I see you you are abeam of light and it's been the
hard work that I can't evencomprehend that you've gone
through, but have today gottenjust a small glimpse into how
you've made that experience,that liminal transformation?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
Thank you, thank you, and each of us are treasures.
Like each of us, our life is atreasure and you know, it's
about honoring that.
I think it's really abouthonoring that, and I go back to
when I was in grade seven and Ilooked in the mirror.
I don't want to look back on mylife and say, you know, I want
to know that when it's my time,I can say, okay, I've done my
(34:47):
best.
I may not have been perfect and,my gosh, it certainly was messy
sometimes, but you know, I'veembraced it and I've lived my
life and I'm so grateful for theexperiences that I've had and
for what I've gone through,because I've learned so much.
And may it come Now this is thebig thing, if I'm going to
leave you with this.
(35:07):
May it come through me and notfrom me.
And through me means may itcome from the experiences and
everything that I've learned andbeyond, and the wisdom and the
beautiful people who'vecontributed to my life, but also
who are walking with me in lifewith their own experiences, and
may it come through us to agreater good.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
If you've learned just one thing about change
while listening to this podcast,please subscribe on Apple or
Spotify and share with friendthis episode recorded via Zoom
Audio.
Producers Peggy Keneck andCatherine Greiba.
Executive producer.
Keneck Leadership Advisory.
Theme music La Pompée writtenby Chris Harrington, music
(35:55):
publisher in Votto Market.
For information on this podcast, please visit wwwgetyourgoatca.
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