146 - B.J. Allen - The Compensating Power of Christ

What if your weakness wasn’t a flaw—but a space for grace?

In this episode, I sit down with B.J. Allen, a business professor at BYU and author of The Compensating Power of Christ, to explore the intersection of faith, psychology, and performance. We dive into everything from confidence in sales to imposter syndrome in life—and how preparation, storytelling, and spiritual awareness shape how we show up in the world.

B.J. shares his journey from corporate life to academia, his teaching philosophy, and the uncomfortable but essential role of moving outside your comfort zone. We go deep into the psychology of persuasion, the mechanics of storytelling, and how empathy—not manipulation—is the real currency of sales.

But the heart of this conversation lies in something more eternal.

We explore the idea that Christ not only forgives but compensates—that He fills in the gaps of our stewardship, our pain, and our imperfection. B.J. unpacks this often-overlooked aspect of the Atonement: how Christ doesn’t just wait on the other side of death to restore what’s been lost—but actively refines, strengthens, and multiplies our efforts now.

This episode is for anyone who’s ever felt unqualified, uncertain, or unworthy. And for those who have the courage to believe that what we lack, Christ supplies.

Three Takeaways:

Confidence is built through preparation—not personality. Sales, life, and faith all require rehearsal before resilience.

Storytelling is sacred. Whether in business or belief, narratives forge the deepest human connection.

Christ’s power compensates, not just redeems. The Savior makes up the difference in our teaching, parenting, stewardship, and pain—if we let Him in.

Listen if you’re curious about:

• How psychology and empathy drive great marketing and sales
• Teaching with conviction and clarity
• The Stoic idea of controlling what you can—and surrendering the rest
• How Jesus Christ’s Atonement applies to more than just sin

Check out B.J.'s Website

Buy his book on Amazon

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I hope today’s episode sparked something within you to pursue your dreams and unlock your true potential. If you found value in it, consider sharing it with someone who might need that same push.

Getting After It is for those who. want to silence their self-doubt. Refuse to be owned by comfort. Understand their limits are man-made and breakable. We live in a time of constant comparison. Social media drowns us in highlight reels and overnight success stories. But what most people don’t see is the grit behind it all. The reps. The quiet mornings. The sacrifices. The failures.

You are just getting started. 

Keep Getting After It. 

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Episode Transcript

Brett (00:00):
Yeah, I actually came, I did it.

BJ Allen (00:01):
I came and did a sales training at pattern, maybe like
a year and a half ago, maybelonger than that.

Brett (00:07):
I think I remember that and I actually I went to your
class to do a like a salesinterview.

BJ Allen (00:14):
Yes, I can't remember what it was, but I knew you
looked familiar, but yes, it wasa.
You came and did a like a salescompetition for my class.
Yeah, yeah, that's what it wasa sales competition for my class
.

Brett (00:24):
Yeah, that's what it was.
It was fun.
It was a great time.
Oddly enough, my friend's wifewas in your class Hannah Howard,
now Hannah Lott.
It's a small world.
Seriously, I appreciate youtaking some time to chat with me

(00:44):
today.
I know you're busy and you havea lot going on, but it means a
lot, so thank you.

BJ Allen (00:50):
Yeah, absolutely.

Brett (00:52):
And I sent over just a list of questions that I was
hoping you and I could go into.
But the first one is a littlebit interesting because it kind
of tugs in my passion a littlebit with teaching.
I'm obviously not a teacher wetalked a little bit about my
professional background a littlebit but it's something I've
always enjoyed doing is liketeaching other people, helping

(01:14):
them learn something new, andI've always valued teachers who
take the time to actually giveme the tools and insights that I
need to succeed in whatever itis.
But how'd you go through andeventually decide to become a
professor?

BJ Allen (01:30):
Yeah, so I worked, so I graduated from BYU with an
undergrad in business and then Iworked for probably four or
five years and so becoming aprofessor was the farthest thing
from my mind.
And then I started studying forthe GMAT because I want to go
to business school, and justkind of started thinking about,

(01:54):
like what do I want to be when Igrow up?
And I had, like you know, like amidlife crisis, like 27,
whatever I was, I was in mycrisis at like 27, whatever I
was, and I just started talkingto some of my former professors
and they just said, hey, youshould think about getting a PhD
, because being a professor is amix of teaching and then a lot

(02:20):
of kind of business analyticstheory and a lot of the stuff I
was doing kind of in my jobaround analysis and putting
together kind of storytellingusing data.
But as an academic, you get toresearch what you want rather
than like what your boss or yourcompany tells you to, and so I

(02:45):
started research.
I just started researching moreinto it and and I thought like,
yeah, like this is really whatI want to do.
But no one in my family hadreally kind of like got a PhD.
I had maybe one or one siblingwho went to to grad school, and
so I didn't really know whatthat meant.
Yeah, and so I just startedapplying to PhD programs and
luckily got in somewhere, andthen that kind of was like my

(03:08):
professor journey, and so I knewI wanted to do it because I
like the things that professorsdo, I like the research, I love
working with young adults, Ilove teaching, and so it's kind
of like the best of a lot ofdifferent worlds.

Brett (03:21):
Yeah, so I actually didn't know that about getting
your PhD You're allowed to goand research topics on your own,
and is that kind of how, likepapers are published and that
kind of thing?

BJ Allen (03:33):
Yeah, so you're publishing in academic journals.
That's like the, the currencyof academics, and so that's how
you get tenure, that's how youkind of get promoted is by
publishing, and the other thingsare important, but academic
publishing is the primary thingthat you do, and so you really

(03:55):
kind of just choose topics thatyou think are interesting, but
other people also have to thinkthey're interested interesting
because everything gets peerreviewed.
You know you work on projectsfor two, three years.
It's a super painful processand then you publish an academic
journal and then you move on tothe next project.

Brett (04:17):
Interesting.
Okay, so I mean I know you, youcurrently teach business and
particularly sales and marketing, correct?
So were there other topics thatyou considered going into
before you actually decided onthose two?

BJ Allen (04:34):
No, I always knew I wanted to do marketing I love.
My emphasis in my undergrad wasin marketing.
All my jobs were eitheranalytics marketing strategy or
marketing analytics, and so Iknew I loved the connection of
business creativity with peoplelike I wanted the people side of

(04:56):
business.
So I knew marketing was kind ofalways what I wanted to do.

Brett (05:00):
Yeah, that's fun.
I mean marketing is.
It really is a greatopportunity to connect with
people in that way.
I actually started an agencywith my brothers when I was back
in 2018.
It was just a little digitaladvertising agency and we had
some clients.
But it was always fun, likelearning what their voice was
and then figuring out how toconnect with their customers

(05:21):
like through that voice, throughtheir product with their
customers, like through thatvoice and through their product.
But there's definitely somelike psychology that's goes into
marketing, especially whenyou're trying to persuade people
to buy your product or or tryyour service.

BJ Allen (05:39):
What's your take on the psychological piece of
marketing and even sales?
Yeah, I mean so if we rewind,you know to, to many years ago,
like kind of the genesis ofmarketing was the psychology of
business.
It was kind of like economistslooking and saying, hey, usually
, you know, as price goes up,demand goes down, but that's not
always the case and thatdoesn't make any sense to us.
And so all of a sudden theyrealize that, hey, actually like

(06:02):
we need to study how consumersthink they.
All of a sudden they realizethat hey, actually like we need
to study how consumers think,and realizing that sometimes
this price goes up, demand goesup because people use price as a
valuation of quality.
And so it was understanding,kind of the psychological
mechanisms by which consumersmake decisions, you know, and a
lot of times I think thepsychology of business gets a
bad rap.

(06:22):
We think about, like trickingpeople in the buying stuff or
you know, we use red andadvertising because it makes,
give people a sense of urgency.
But there's also kind of thispsychology part of marketing
which is how do we use the waythe brain thinks to create human
connection?

Brett (06:41):
Yeah.

BJ Allen (06:42):
Right.
So, for example, in cells, weknow that mirroring you know
which is using like similarmannerisms and tonality is the
next person creates a sense oftrust.
Or we learn from psychology thetype of questions we can ask
that helps us connect to peopleand helps us create, uh, like a

(07:03):
sense of, a sense of I'm sorry,what's the word?
I'm looking for?
Empathy.
All right, let me let me startthat over.
So psychology teaches the typeof questions we can ask that
helps us create connection witha sense of empathy towards our
customer.
And so the psychology part ofmarketing isn't just about, you

(07:26):
know, creating FOMO buy one, getone free.
It's about.
It's about creatingauthenticity, authentic
relationships, creating humanconnection within marketing and
sales.

Brett (07:40):
Um, I love that.
I mean there's a couple ofbrands that I think of right off
the top of my head that Iconnect with on that level Um,
where I'm not only am Iinterested in their product, but
I love seeing them grow.
I love seeing what they'redoing, and I'm curious if
there's any companies that youthink do really well with that.

BJ Allen (07:56):
Yeah, any brand that tells a story is usually around
for a long time, right, and theythey'll have, they'll have very
loyal consumers.
They'll be pretty price,inelastic consumers will will
pay kind of whatever.
So I mean really like, if youlook at the top brands and, uh,

(08:19):
in the world, I mean those areusually like the ones that
people are most loyal to.

Brett (08:24):
Yeah, I guess that makes sense.
You know Apple, nike, adidas,even like there's team Nike,
there's team Adidas.

BJ Allen (08:30):
Yeah, I mean so yeah, any brand that really again
creates an emotional connection,because that's what that's,
what kind of entices people topurchase things.
So you look at, like the applesand the Nikes and the Cokes of
the world.
You look at, you know, smallerbrands that are still very
popular, like Lululemon, youknow, but you look at really

(08:53):
niche brands, like a HarleyDavidson, because, like they,
they mean something, the brandstands for something different
and so, like that, yeah, that'skind of what I think about when
I say kind of you know,meaningful brands that tell a
story.

Brett (09:08):
Yeah, that's interesting and, um, I mean, storytelling
has been something I've beentrying to work on and everything
I do, just because I recognizethat's one of the ways that
humans connect the best is.
You know, we used to tellstories around a campfire and
that has happened forgenerations and that's something
that's like to get a messageacross really well.

(09:29):
A story should be behind that,to push it forward and to at
least get your point across tothe end consumer or whoever it
is what you're trying tocommunicate to them.

BJ Allen (09:41):
Yeah, totally, and you mentioned earlier that at BYU I
teach professional sellingright, and this is like one of
the concepts that we talk about,and I have guest speakers come
in and talk about storytellingwithin cells, because you
mentioned, you know, like thevery first communication among
humans was storytelling.
Because that's how we relateconcepts right, like the great

(10:05):
teachers of the world, theConfucius, the Jesus Christ of
the world, like they taughtthrough storytelling, because
that's what creates emotionalconnection.
And so, whether it's marketingin sales or in anything or like
in a sales perspective, ifsomeone was to ask you a
question as a seller, you have achoice you can just give an

(10:26):
immediate answer or you can givean answer in a story.
And you give the answer in astory, it's a lot more likely to
resonate with the consumer andit's a lot more likely to create
an emotional response.

Brett (10:41):
Yeah, do some of those guest speakers have any like
tips that they say if you wantto improve your storytelling, or
where to start on that?
Did they kind of leave yourclass with anything like that?

BJ Allen (10:52):
Yeah, you know, one common thing that when we talk
about you know what are somethings that separate good
storytellers from badstorytellers is great
storytellers create like a senseof tension in their story.
So, rather than saying, hey,brett, you use this product
right and you're going to loveit and it's going to make your
family happy, and and tell astory that way, if I can create

(11:14):
like like an emotional tension.
So, brett, maybe you've had aproblem like this.
Right, I was working withsomeone who had this was their
issue that resonate with you.
Right, I was working withsomeone who had this was their
issue that resonate with you,and you're like, yes, like
that's an issue everyone in myindustry has.
So now, now you're more engagedin the story because you're
feeling the pain of the problem.

(11:34):
And then if I could then showyou kind of the solution as a
salesperson, that's like a muchbetter story than just using the
story as a way to talk aboutfeatures and how my product is
going to benefit you, which isimportant.
But you're more likely to seethe benefit if you can see the
problem and this problem is moresalient to you, then now you

(11:57):
really want a solution.
So it's kind of like the end ofthe story, like, well, what
happens next?
Yeah, yeah, as a customer, like, well then, what's the solution
?
Yes, like I.
Well then, what's the solution?
Yes, like I feel the pain.
Now I want you to tell me howto solve it.

Brett (12:08):
Yeah, I mean that that's funny.
You bring that out Cause that'sactually what our good friend
Bryce tells me every day.
He's like, make sure that youhave them uncover the pain, like
, say something that gets themto at least relate to you, um,
maybe share some information,but they need to be the ones
that are talking about the painthey're feeling, because then
you can be like oh well, guesswhat?
We have something to help withthat.
So I think that's interestingand definitely I think

(12:33):
psychology plays a role, atleast with the things that I do,
with trying to reach out topeople, talk to them about their
problems, see if there's anysolutions that we have that
could help them.
Um, and it's.
It's been a journey and alearning experience for me to be
able to be like every situationis different, but something

(12:54):
that we do and some kind of painthat they're feeling can work
together to create some like asolution for their, their
problem.
Um, it's just really, you know,digging and uncovering that
like this is a weird analogy,but I always think of myself as
an archeologist, like, you know,one brush and trying to get to
the dinosaur bone, and then youknow, being careful, and it just

(13:16):
uncovers it, and then you canhave that conversation when the
time comes up.

BJ Allen (13:20):
Yeah, I think that's what makes marketing and sales
so exciting.
That's why I loved all mybusiness classes.
I even thought accounting andfinance was exciting, but I
wanted something that was moreconsumer-centric, because it's
exciting to work with people.

(13:40):
That's what we yearn for ashumans, this human connection
people Like that's what we,that's what we yearn for as
humans, is human connection.
And so if you could do that inlike a job in a business setting
and think about you know howare people going to approach
this problem or how are peoplethinking about my brand, I just
think that that's a lot moreinteresting.

Brett (13:57):
Yeah, yeah, and you said it like that's.
A key tenant of marketing isshow them how your product gets
rid of the pain or makes theirlife easier.
Like, whatever it is, it's asolution to improve their life.
Um, so, obviously not everyproduct is going to fit that
mold, but, um, like we've.
We've probably seen manyexamples of bad marketing, which

(14:18):
I'm curious if you have anyfavorites.

BJ Allen (14:20):
Um, you know bad marketing.
You know bad marketing.
You know so, like one of myprimary uh, one of my primary
areas of research is is theintegration of marketing and new
product innovation.
So you know, when I think aboutlike bad marketing, I just
think of kind of the bad productintroductions like like new

(14:43):
coke, right is, is like aclassic example.
Um yeah, but bad marketing.

Brett (14:48):
There's not really a lot of a lot of uh, a lot of uh bad
campaigns that come to mind yeah, I have seen, though, like on
linkedin, people will postthings all the time of like, hey
, I saw this marketing ad and itwas great or um, vice, whatever
it is.
But I always see ones where onecompany decides to do like a

(15:09):
slander campaign against anotherand it always backfires on them
because then that company like,let's say, it's McDonald's
bashing on Burger King, thenBurger King will take that ad
and repurpose it to makethemselves look better.
So I don't know.
I mean, I just think it'sinteresting how people can
really play on anything likefind whatever connects.

(15:31):
And I think if, in my ownopinion, if McDonald's is taking
shots at Burger King and BurgerKing fires back with something
different, people are going tobe like, okay, yeah, there we go
, burger King.
It just makes it more relatable.
I don't know, just from my ownexperience.

BJ Allen (15:46):
Yeah, you know.
So, like slander andcompetitive campaigns don't
normally work if you are likethe top dog or if you're
fighting against someone who'salso a market leader.
So, like a Burger KingMcDonald's would be funny if
they went back and forth.
But if McDonald's just startedragging on Burger King, like
most people wouldn't reallyresonate with that.
But, like, competitivecampaigns work pretty effective

(16:09):
for David versus Goliathsituations.
Consumers really love anunderdog story, like we love one
the underdog.
You know the Cinderella atMarch Madness, and so I think
about, you know, like Body Armor.
When they first came out, theircampaigns were always hey, like
Gatorade, we'll take it fromhere.
Like you're an outdated sportsdrink and we're the new,

(16:32):
innovative.
And consumers don't normallylook at that and think, oh, like
, that's really mean Right,because they're like yeah, like
we love, we love it, david.
Like go after them.
Yeah love it, david, like goafter them, yeah, and so
normally, like at least you knowsome of the studies that I've
done is they're really they'reusually not effective, unless
it's unless it's like anunderdog.

(16:53):
So like when apple first cameout, you know they always had
the the apple verse pccommercials, where where the pc,
microsoft, were seen as likethis like dorky businessman and
Apple is kind of this cooldesigner, because like they were
so new and they were sodifferent.
Now, if they were to dosomething like that now, like

(17:15):
people would just be like you'rea big bully, like why are you
doing?
that Probably true, right, andso I think that's kind of the
different perspective on thosetype of campaigns is are
consumers going to see you as abully?
If they do, they won't like it.
If they're going to see you aslike an underdog, like David
versus Goliath, then most peoplewill resonate pretty well with
it.

Brett (17:34):
Yeah, I think that's cool .
I mean it's fun to see people,just with their own creativity,
figure out like what's the bestway to bring the product to the
market.
I think that's always fun tosee.
But I'm curious, bringing itback to your classroom and being
a professor what is it that youreally enjoy about teaching,

(17:55):
about working with young adultsand helping them?
What is it that's like reallybeen like hey, this is the job
that I was meant to do, or thisis fulfilling for me.

BJ Allen (18:04):
So I've always loved, I've always loved young adults.
I mean I have, like I have,five younger brothers and I have
, you know, a ton of of nephews.
I've had jobs where I workedwith young adults.
So I like, I've always lovedthis age group.
There's just a lot of fun, thereare a lot of energy and in my

(18:26):
particular classes so I teachprofessional selling and
advanced selling at BYU andthey're they're upper level
electives, and so students arekind of started to realize, like
holy crap, I'm about tograduate, like I should really,
you know, know something,because I'm gonna have to get a
job and so, like in those in theclasses, like the upper level

(18:49):
electives, students are really,for the most part, they're
engaged, like they really wantto learn, and so it makes such a
a great environment for what Icall engaged learning, which is
not just like me talking to them, but me learning from them and
them learning from me kind of atthe same time, and particularly

(19:10):
teaching a really fun classlike CELS, right, we have a ton
of discussion, we have a ton ofrole plays.
The students learn from eachother, do they role plays with
each other?
They do role plays with me, andso it makes like it just makes
a really fun environment.
But I also learn a lot fromthem.
Like I ask questions.
A lot of times they think I'mjust asking questions to see if

(19:30):
they, you know, to make themthink, but I really want to know
, like what do?

Brett (19:33):
you think?

BJ Allen (19:34):
You guys are all out in the world, you're engaging,
you're looking at marketingcampaigns, like how do you think
about this process?
And also just you know youthink about this process and
also just you know teachingforces you to really learn a lot
about the subject.
It forces you to kind of engage, particularly business, which
is a very applied science, andso it's allowed me to engage

(19:57):
with a ton of differentmarketing and sales
professionals who live here inUtah and also across the nation
and honestly, that's one of thecoolest parts of my job is I
interact with tons ofsalespeople because I also lead
the sales program, I helpstudents find jobs, recruiting,

(20:17):
and so there's just a ton.
That's really fun.
But if I had to boil it down toa couple things, I would say
like there's a, the, this youth,or the, the young adults.
They're very energetic, theybring a lot of life and for the
most part, like they really areeager to learn.

Brett (20:35):
Yeah.

BJ Allen (20:35):
And they're.
they're willing to engage,they're willing to do what you
ask of them and it's really funto see kind of the light come on
when they're like oh, wow, likeI see now why you taught us
this and like honestly, you knowthat probably happens more when
they graduate than it doesduring class.

(20:58):
I mean I have a lot of studentsreach out and they're like hey,
like your class was interestingI I thought it was cool, but
now like it's way more valuablenow that I'm actually working in
sales and I see like why youtaught us a certain way and like
I'm totally okay with thatbecause that's how everyone
learns.
No one really appreciates ituntil they have to apply it and

(21:22):
um, but anyway, yeah, I mean itreally is like a fantastic job.

Brett (21:27):
Yeah, I love what you just said too.
Nobody really learns until youhave to apply it, and that is
something, unfortunately, Ithink is true in my life and I
think in many others and manyothers.
Recent example, I was talkingto my wife about we're training

(21:48):
for an ultra marathon coming upand I was telling her like I'm
sore and I'm tired all the time,and I was like I think I just
have to slow down my pace, likeI think I might just be going
too fast for too long.
And she goes.
I've been telling you that forlike three months now and I'm
like, yeah, well, I had to applyit first.
You know, I had to make surethat it was actually truthful.
But I can imagine, as a teacher, that's something that's, and

(22:17):
as a professor, as someone whowants to help their students
learn that has to be rewarding,like to be able to like okay,
you actually applied what Itaught you.

BJ Allen (22:23):
Like that's good it is .
It is really exciting Becauseyou know, as an instructor well,
that's, you know mostinstructors they put a lot of
effort into their class, put alot of effort into their
teaching, into learning thematerial and, uh, as a professor
, if you can show a lot ofpassion for what you're teaching
, the students will appreciatethat.
But yeah, when the light comeson, they like but yeah, when the
light comes on, that's a supermeaningful experience as a

(22:45):
teacher.

Brett (22:46):
Yeah, I like that.
I'm curious With professionalselling.
One thing that I've recognizedin being in sales for as long as
I have been, which isn't thatlong, it's only three years but
I've recognized the people thatdo well versus the people who
struggle or fall behind.
The difference really comesdown to one knowledge, but two

(23:07):
confidence and being able tohave conviction with the things
that you say.
And I'm curious if there'sanything that you teach your
students to be more confidentwhen they are doing
presentations or anything likethat.

BJ Allen (23:22):
Yeah, so I think that's a really interesting
observation, brett, because whenyou're confident as a
salesperson, it just kind ofbleeds into everything that
you're doing and the consumer orthe customer assumes you know
what you're talking about if yousay it with confidence.
And you know there's a fewthings, but one of the things

(23:46):
that I think is reallyunderappreciated when it comes
to confidence, because often wethink about confidence as being
like a characteristic or a trait.
Right, he's very he or she,they're just very confident when
they talk.
But I don't think that that'sthe case, at least not fully.
I don't think that that's thecase, at least not fully.
I don't think that's the fullstory.
I think that confidence is bredby preparation.

(24:10):
The people, like you, go into asales call.
You're the most confident whenyou really know your product and
when you really know thecustomer, when you really feel
like I know what they're lookingfor and I know how I'm going to
sell this.
And you know there's one of myfavorite shows is um is a free
solo, you know by the story ofAlex Honnold and one of the

(24:35):
things he says is reallyinteresting in that show.
He says you know, people alwaysthink that me free solo is
about like compressing my fearand he says to me it's more
about expanding my comfort zone.
Interesting, he says you knowlike I, I practice and I do the

(24:55):
route that I'm going to freesolo, I practice and I do that
route with ropes hundreds oftimes.
Like I know exactly what moveI'm going to do, I know exactly
which finger I'm going to do, Iknow exactly which finger I'm
going to use.
Like I become so comfortablewith the process that that's
what disbates my fear.
And so I think similar withwith cells like this is why I do

(25:17):
role plays.
In my class we do a lot of roleplays and at the beginning of
the semester it's superuncomfortable.
The students are super awkward,they're like I don't know if I
want to do this, and I said,like you just have to, because
this is how you become confidentin the process is by learning
hey, I can do this.
And then by the end of thesemester they're a lot more
confident because that's anenvironment that they've

(25:40):
practiced in.
And then they go get, and thenthey go into a sales competition
and then they're superuncomfortable because it's a new
environment.
And then they do it and thenthey become comfortable with it.
So I love that analogy fromAlex Honnold.
I think it's about expandingyour comfort zone.
Another thing that we teach inour class in regards to
confidence is this comes fromthe Pacific Institute, which is

(26:01):
like a consulting group and it'scalled the flick back, flick up
technique, which is anytimeyou're given a situation where
you feel really scared oruncomfortable.
Really, rather than just tryand talk yourself out of being
nervous, like, hey, this isn't abig deal, you're going to be

(26:22):
fine.
I mean that never works right Is, rather than try and talk
yourself out of it, try and talkyourself into a situation or to
feeling about, or reminding,remembering about a situation
where you did succeed.
So it would be like, hey, somaybe, brett, maybe you're going
to give a presentation and yoube like, hey, so maybe Brett,
maybe you're going to give apresentation, and you're like
man, I'm really nervous.
And then you just remember,like your very first podcast

(26:46):
episode, you're like I was supernervous but like look,
everything's turned out justfine.
And so remembering a time whereyou were nervous and you were
new and you did succeed, givesus a lot of confidence.
So it's called the flick backof thought, because you flick
back to a time you're successfuland then you flick those
emotions back into your presentsituation.

(27:06):
You remember those, youcultivate that, that feeling of
confidence, and then it helpsyou portray that into, like,
your current circumstance.
I like that?

Brett (27:15):
Yeah, david Goggins, do you know who he is?
By chance?
He's a.
He's a crazy guy.
You don't.
You don't really need to knowtoo much about him, but he he
runs like 250 miles.
He was a Navy seal, like he's acrazy guy.
But he calls that concept thecookie jar.
So anytime that you you knoware going through something
difficult or you need that extraconfidence boost, like go into

(27:36):
your cookie jar and pullsomething out that reminds you
that you know you can dodifficult things and and try and
keep going.
But I think that's cool.
What's it?
Click up.
What was it?

BJ Allen (27:46):
Flick out, click up flick, flick back, flick up
flick back, flick up.

Brett (27:50):
Okay, yeah, I was way off , but sorry, there's also a
software I'm trying to explorecalled a click up, so I was
getting a little confused, but Ilike that.
I mean, reflection is huge, Ithink, with progress in any area
in your life, but confidence,especially because our brains
are very good at findingnegative things that we do, or

(28:14):
finding the bad in everysituation, and it's almost like
you have to practice shiftingyour focus and, um, like you
said, remembering you knowwhat's gotten you to that part.
But um, that's great.
Thanks for uh, for sharing that.
But, um, I I kind of want topivot the conversation a little
bit and and talk about, uh, thebook that you wrote um, the

(28:36):
compensating power of Christ.
I, uh, I checked it out.
To be honest, I haven'tpurchased it, but I've, I've
read um the compensating powerof Christ.
I, uh, I checked it out.
To be honest, I haven'tpurchased it, but I've, I've
read um, like the summary.
I've read a lot of your yourreviews on Amazon, actually, and
it has great reviews, um, butthat's a very different book to
write than some of your.
You know business books thatyou've also done um, which I

(28:57):
believe are textbooks, businessbooks that you've also done,
which I believe are textbooks,correct?
Yeah, so that's very different,and I'm also a member of the
Church of Jesus Christ ofLatter-day Saints, and so it's
something that one I think isamazing that you did.
That it's not only somethingthat is different from your
profession, but it's also Ithink we'll probably get into

(29:19):
this but a lot of research hadto go into writing that book
about, about Christ and hisatonement, um, but I'm curious
what, what got you to decide toto go down that path and write
that book?

BJ Allen (29:34):
Yeah.
So the whole thing was reallyway outside my comfort zone,
right, talking about, uh,talking about trying to be
confident in situations.
So I I've always kind ofthought about this concept.
I didn't really call it thecompensating power at first, but
it's just this idea that JesusChrist writes the wrongs of life

(29:56):
.
So as Christians, we talk aboutthe atonement in a number of
different ways.
So we talk about how JesusChrist forgives us our sins, how
Jesus Christ gives us strengthto overcome challenges, how he
gives us peace in difficulttimes.
But there's this aspect of theatonement that I kind of just

(30:16):
read about in bits and pieceshere you know, church leaders
here, scriptures there which isabout how Jesus Christ
compensates for the unfairnessand weaknesses of life.
And, uh, I just realized like Idon't really know what that
means and I don't.
There's not really a lot on it.
I've heard people say it, butI've never really heard people

(30:36):
talk about it below, like asurface level answer, yeah, and
so it kind of just became apersonal study.
You know, as an academic, that'sjust kind of what I do is I
study something deeply and thenI write about it because I'm,
you know, I'm just weird, and soI never really I never really
put it thought it would be abook.

(30:57):
I just kind of started writingabout the things I was learning
and then, and just kind of, youkind of just talk to people
about, hey, I've been learningabout this and like, hey, that's
a really cool way of looking atthe atonement of Jesus Christ.
I never really thought about itlike that and then I just
started really feeling that Ishould kind of put it into a
book form, right.
So in you know, in religiousterms, we'd say, like you know,

(31:18):
I got a prompting from thespirit that God wanted me to do
something and at first I kind ofjust was like, no, I don't want
to.
You know, probably similar tohow you felt about starting a
podcast.
You're like everyone wants tostart a podcast, like I don't
want to do this, right, it'slike everyone thinks they're
going to write a book.
I'm not going to write a book.
I always made fun of thosepeople who say that and and then

(31:42):
I was like, ok, fine, like itjust became like a strong enough
feeling that I'm like, ok, I'lldo it.
And you know, it's really hardto get a book published.
You know it's even harder in avery niche area.
You know, in the writingswithin the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saintsthere's really kind of only you
know, a couple big publishersand they're both owned by the

(32:05):
same company.
And I'm not a religionprofessor, I'm not a famous
institute teacher, I'm not ageneral authority Like, and so I
said like, I'll write it, I'llsend it in.
They'll say no, and then I'll,I'll just assume God wanted me
to do this for my own good.
And you know, just the oppositehappened.
I sent it in and they said, hey, we think this is a really kind

(32:30):
of novel way of thinking aboutthe atonement of Jesus Christ.
So you know, here's a bunch ofchanges to make, here's some
things we want to improve.
Send the manuscript back in andwe'll strongly consider it.
So I did, and then it ended upgetting published and it was
just a really phenomenal journey.
Um, the the, you know thebook's been a lot more

(32:53):
successful than I thought itwould be as a first time author.
That no one knows.
You know, instead of fivepeople buying it, at least 15
have.
So I, I just it's, uh, it's,it's been a really cool journey.
But yeah, that's kind of thebackground of the book and how a
business professor wrote agospel book.
I like that.

Brett (33:14):
I mean it's it shows that you're living that principle of
like, hey, I'm going to expandmy comfort zone here, um, cause,
I can imagine that feels likeI'm.
Uh, at least with the podcastlike you brought up that example
I felt a lot of impostersyndrome coming in and and
telling people like, okay, well,getting after it to me is a
time or like an area wherepeople can come and learn skills

(33:35):
and and hear other people'sexperiences, uh, take insights
from them and apply it to theirown lives to see if they can
help themselves, progress andreally be the best version of
themselves.
And there's so many self-helpthings out there, there's so
many motivational things thatI'm like I'll just be another
drop in the bucket.
And I felt a lot of impostersyndrome at the beginning until

(33:58):
I kind of had a similarexperience, like people grasped
onto the message and likeencouraged me to keep going.
Um, but did you ever feel thatimposter syndrome at the
beginning?
And, uh, if you did, how didyou overcome it?

BJ Allen (34:12):
Yes, a hundred percent .
I felt the imposter syndrome.
Um, you know, I don't know ifyou get over it, except for you
just keep moving forward.
Like you know, I don't know ifyou get over it, except for you
just keep moving forward.
Like you know, there's never apoint where you're like, oh, I
don't feel imposter syndrome now.
So I feel very confident aboutwhat I'm doing because, you know
, it certainly helped that Isent it to a large publisher and
they gave me validation bysaying, hey, yeah, we want to

(34:34):
publish it.
Um, but then, like that just ledto a whole different world.
So my book comes out and peoplestart buying it and people
start reviewing it, and then Istart getting contacted about
being on like podcasts, right.
So, um, I've been on a fewpretty popular podcasts in
regards to the church JesusChrist of Latter-day Saints and

(34:54):
at first, like that was tenseposture syndrome.
Um, you know, about a month ortwo after the book launched, I
was asked to be on the followhim podcast which is like one of
the biggest it's like one ofthe biggest religious podcasts
in the whole world, not just forour religion.
It has like a million listenersa week and oh wow, I didn't know

(35:15):
that they asked me to be on andI was like at first, honestly,
like I'm super embarrassed tosay this, brett.
But like I said no, I was likeno, like this is way outside my
comfort zone.
Like they have like topreligion scholars on this
podcast.
That's what makes it so cool isit's like a mix of scholar and
spirituality.
Then they asked me again andthen they asked me again and I

(35:44):
said like okay, like I have todo this because I'm always
telling my students to gooutside their comfort zone.
Like what a hypocrite I am.
And I was.
So I haven't been that nervousin ages to be on that podcast.
Because it was just for thosewho aren't familiar, it's
basically a scriptural podcast.
So for like four hours werecord on like a few chapters in
the book of scripture.

(36:05):
So for me it was the book ofmormon and it's not just like
hey, we're having a conversation, like we are now, like you're,
you're diving into it, right,you're talking about the
meanings behind it, and so yougot to be well prepared.
This is a.
It was just a whole differentdynamic and that's just one
example.
I've been on a few others.
But yeah, like, if I mean, youhave imposter syndrome.
Before you do everything,anything that you're comfortable

(36:27):
with, and you just eventuallybecome more comfortable by just
expanding your comfort zone, youjust do it and then you tell
yourself hey, like you know, itwasn't great, but it wasn't
terrible, like.

Brett (36:42):
Hey, that's a win, that's a win.

BJ Allen (36:44):
You know, people aren't throwing tomatoes at me
and I'm not getting angry emailsabout how bad it was so and so
that's a win for me.
And so, like sure I'll, I'll dosome more and I'll keep
extending my comfort zone.
So that's one of the things Ididn't really, I didn't really
forecast with writing this book.
I thought I'll write the bookand it'll just be over.
I didn't really see that itwould open a whole nother world

(37:07):
to me and for the most part it'sactually been really fun.
It's been really fun to dosomething different, you know,
with the podcast and the and thecome follow me stuff, and I
also I teach at BYU educationweek now about the concept of
compensation and uh, it's been areally a cool.

(37:28):
It's been a cool divergent from, like, the day to day of a
business professor.

Brett (37:34):
Yeah, I can imagine that that being the case, and I think
it's awesome.
Like it, it's um, it it's umsomething I think some people
might be afraid to talk about.
You know, bringing religioninto um, the fact that they are
I mean, obviously byu is alittle bit different like it is
a religious school, um, but Ican see how, you know, that

(37:54):
might make people think oh well,you know he's also interested
in in business, he teachesmarketing.
But you know he also has thisbook about Jesus Christ and his
atonement and it's not reallylike BJ's forte, it's not his
normal thing.
I mean, I can't imagine peoplegiving backlash or anything like

(38:16):
that.
But I think it's just, it'sinspiring that you know you're
you're deciding to chase adifferent avenue, I guess, of
what you're comfortable with.
But with the book specifically,it's broken into three
different parts, correct?
So it's it's the self, othersand the like, the trials of life
, correct?

BJ Allen (38:37):
Yeah.
So it just kind of breaks downthe idea of compensation into
kind of three areas like what'sbeing compensated for and who's
doing the compensation.
So the first section is howJesus Christ compensates us for
our own imperfections andweaknesses.
Then the second section is howChrist compensates others for

(38:58):
our imperfections, so likepeople we have stewardship over,
you know our children orreligious responsibilities and
then the last section is howChrist compensates us for the
imperfections and really thetrials of life.

Brett (39:11):
That's awesome.
I think that really is a greatway to look at the atonement of
Jesus Christ.
I, I grew up, you know,learning that really the
atonement of Jesus Christ wasdone so we could live with
Heavenly Father again, for Himatoning for all of our sins,
because we're all imperfectpeople, and that concept was

(39:32):
very easily digestible, like itwas like okay, well, that's what
it is.
And then my dad he's been apublisher for 27 years, so he's
also kind of scholarly.
He reads religious books.
I'm trying to think of who theguy is.
It's not BJ Miller, I can'tremember, but some BYU scholars

(39:54):
and professors have writtenbooks and he loves them books
and he loves them.
And it wasn't until I spoke tohim about the atonement of Jesus
Christ where I started tounderstand that it's not just
for our own, like sins oranything that we do that's not
in line with his teachings, butit's really for anything that is
difficult that we go through.

(40:14):
And really he feels all thepain of grief.
He feels the pain of depression, of abandonment, everything.
Because of that I've gained atestimony that you know.
He does know the feelings thatwe're experiencing as we're
going through certain situations.

(40:36):
To kind of give you a quickbackstory, back in 2021, I was
really sick and I learned that Ihad a tumor in my pituitary
gland, but for two years wedidn't know what was going on,
and so I was dropping weight andI'm six three, got down to 135
pounds, uh, so it wasn't greatand I had no energy, very, very

(40:57):
bad fatigue, get migraines allthe time, and it turns out like
my testosterone was down to 53,which I think, like average for
my age, was supposed to be 500to 700.
And so it was really kind of abad time.
But because of that, like I'dhad some very personal
conversations with God, justlaying on my bed because there's

(41:20):
nothing else I could really do,and I tried understanding why I
would have to go throughsomething like this, and I was
trying to make excuses a lot ofthe times, or not excuses, but
almost play the victim card,like why is this happening to me
?
What's going on here to me?

(41:41):
What, what's going on here?
And I just remember one day Iwas laying there and I just had
this like overwhelming thoughtthat you will become better for
this and you will help someonebecause of it, and at that
moment I just remember beinglike, okay, well, I know that
I'm going to be refined throughthis and I just remember it's
kind of goofy, but I would likejust listen to general

(42:01):
conference talks, because at thetime, like I couldn't look at
screens or anything, so I wouldjust listen to talks.
And I remember hearing PresidentUchtdorf talk about hope and
having hope in Christ.
And I would always wonder like,okay, well, not only is it, you
know, hope in Christ for us tobe forgiven of our sins, but I

(42:23):
think it's in my own opinion andyou can correct me if I'm wrong
, because I know you studiedthis a little bit, quite a bit
because you wrote a book but Iremember thinking, well, if I
can have hope in Jesus Christfor the forgiveness of my sins,
I can have hope knowing that Ican get refined through this
process and become better.
Like I just had to hold on tothat hope and it kind of helped

(42:46):
me see Jesus Christ in adifferent light, because he
wants what's best for us and Ithink sometimes that means we
have to go through somedifficult times on our own and
rely on him during the process.
Um, so I mean that's it'ssomething I think I wish we
talked more about is how Christcan understand your feelings and

(43:08):
your emotions and, um, he knowswhat it's like, like he's felt
it all.
Um, it's definitely somethingthat I want to teach my own kids
and help them understand.
But what did you learn?
Sorry, go ahead.

BJ Allen (43:25):
No, I was going to say first of all, thank you for
sharing that experience.
What a beautiful example of howJesus Christ is with us in the
difficulties of life.
And I think the totality of theatonement of Jesus Christ is
one of the most beautifulaspects of the gospel of Jesus
Christ that, regardless ofwhat's happening in our life,

(43:48):
jesus Christ is with us.
And like that's what theatonement of Jesus Christ is for
.
And when you know, I thinktraditionally, maybe when we
would hear your experience orsomething like that, we would
think that God is either wethink, well, that doesn't make
sense for God that's supposed tobe perfectly merciful and

(44:11):
perfectly just.
Like what's the?
You know what's the?
Where's the justice and themercy, and someone going through
a difficult time like that.
So therefore, god or JesusChrist aren't real.
Or sometimes, as traditionalChristians maybe we take the
aspect and say, well, like Godwill take care of it in the next
life.
Right, like Brett will berewarded with with a crown of

(44:34):
glory because of the things hewent through, which I think is
true.
But really a large portion ofwhat my book is about is about
how Jesus Christ compensates inthis life for those things.
Yes, he'll deal with things inthe next life, but he also deals
with things in this life, andthe idea that all this unfair

(44:55):
about life can be right throughChrist's atonement is not just
about after we die, it's aboutthe things we experience here.
So I think what you justdescribed is a beautiful example
of that.
Part of the part of the waychrist compensates us is by
making us better because of ourexperiences.
So, like no one, no one we like, we don't have to pretend that

(45:17):
trials are fun and that we wantto go through them, right.
But you know, if like here's anexample I use sometimes like
you have a microphone in frontof you, if I was to come to your
house and steal that microphone, like you would you would be
angry and you would say, hey,like that wasn't fair.
But then if I came back and Igave you the microphone and I
gave you a million dollars, youwould say like, yeah, like I've

(45:41):
been more than compensated.
Yeah, similarly, I think when welook back on life, we're going
to see that like life was unfair, but it was unfair in an
advantageous way.
Like we got way more than whatwas taken from us.
And sometimes in our finitemind, all we can see is the
moment.
All we can see is the painthat's happening right now.

(46:03):
But if we are willing to take astep back and we think about
the eternal perspective that Godhas, not just in the next life
but also in this life, I thinkwe see that our life is way
better because of the challengesthat we go through.
Like I would never would havewritten this book if it hadn't

(46:24):
been for some of like the mentalhealth challenges that I had
had and the way that I had cometo understand grace and Jesus
Christ.
Now I don't want I don't wantto go through those again, but
like I've been more thancompensated for the things that
have occurred in my life, and Ithink that's kind of part of
what the gospel of Jesus Christis about is I've been more than
compensated for the things thathave occurred in my life, and I
think that's kind of part ofwhat the gospel of Jesus Christ
is about.

(46:45):
And as we look to the Savior,he'll help us see and understand
those.
And I bet if you look at some ofthe other parts of your life
during that difficult time, Ithink you'll see, probably, that
there was, there was otherblessings that came into your
life that you really didn'tdeserve, right.

(47:05):
That kind of that, that thatmade um part of the part of that
more more palpable, right.
Maybe that's like therelationship with your spouse
that was strengthened, maybethat was that.
Maybe that was likeprofessional opportunities that
came that wouldn't have beenotherwise, or, you know, doctor
miracles or something.
And I just I think that that'ssuch a beautiful part of the

(47:30):
atonement of Jesus Christ isthat we often talk about, like
the gaps that Christ fills.
Christ filled, you know, thegap of sin and the gap of death,
so we'll be resurrected.
There's a lot of gaps that comewith living in a fallen world
and Jesus Christ fills all thosegaps.

(47:52):
That's what he came to do.

Brett (47:54):
Yeah, I love that perspective and you're very spot
on.
It's never fun to go through atrial in the time, like.
It's hard to not be um, havetunnel vision on the problem,
like.
Like I said earlier, it's it'seasy for your brain to find the
bed, um, but I think it's it'simportant in those moments to
call upon on God and,specifically through the name of

(48:17):
Christ um, to ask for help.
And I've had too manyexperiences in my life where I
haven't felt that.
And you are spot on also with,like, as I look back on my life,
from where I am now to when Iwas sick, going through some
pretty severe trials, there's somany blessings that came from
it and, like you said, Iwouldn't want to go through it

(48:38):
again.
It was not easy, but I wouldn'tbe who I am today without that.
And it's kind of an interestingrealization I've had recently
is, you know, that refined me,it taught me to be resilient, it
taught me to have hope, andthose are lessons I think that
are invaluable, at least to me.

(49:00):
They are, and it's funny, mywife and I joke all the time
because, you know, I was goingthrough that hard time and
during that same time her dadpassed away and so we always
joke and it might seem like adark joke, but like we had to go
through those things to end upbeing together, because that's
who made us who we are and it'sum, I love that idea of just the

(49:24):
compensating power of Christbecause I have seen that many
times in my life.
I'm curious if there's anythingthat you learned that you
didn't really know aboutChrist's atonement before
writing the book.

BJ Allen (49:39):
Yeah, I'd say that everything in the book was
something I hadn't.
I mean, it was just a learningprocess, right, I only put stuff
in the book that I thoughtwasn't really super salient or
really heavily taught inChristianity, like you know.
Going back to what we weretalking about before, about kind

(49:59):
of feeling imposter syndrome, Imean, you feel imposter
syndrome writing a gospel bookas a business professor, but you
especially feel writing a bookon the topic like the atonement
of Jesus Christ, right, it'slike who am I to write about a
topic so sacred and so special,right, like I'm certainly not

(50:20):
the most knowledgeable person onit, nor do I, you know, claim
to be, and so it was really justa process of of studying
scripture and studying talksfrom church leaders, studying
books, reading a lot.
So I kind of see it as like anamalgamation of a lot of things
that have been taught but reallymaybe put into like a cohesive

(50:43):
way that's digestible for kindof just the average person,
right?
So, like I didn't come up withthe topic, I didn't come up with
the atonement is just maybeputting it together.
And so we talked about oneaspect of the, of the
compensating power, which is howchrist compensates for the
unfairness of life.

(51:03):
But, um, you know to answeryour question about, like, what
else have I learned?
I think you kind of understandlike the depth of grace and the
way that it enables and helps us.
You know, particularly like inmy own life, it's become very
meaningful because I've learnedthat Christ compensates for my

(51:29):
weaknesses as I try and helpother people.
So I'm a, you know, I'm acollege professor.
I work with a lot of people, alot of students, who ask for
help and advice.
I have six kids.
I also serve as the bishop ofmy congregation, which is like
similar to like a pastor, right?

(51:49):
Or like a priest, and so peopleare always coming in with they
need help.
And here's the point is thatit's very easy, when you have a
stewardship over people, tosecond guess yourself all the
time.
And when someone walks outsideyour office and say, hey, like
maybe I should have done this ormaybe I should have said this,
or you know people, um, thingsdon't work out the way that you

(52:14):
want them to you, you start tothink maybe it was me, you know,
I have a kid who goes off therails.
Maybe you start to wonder isthat my fault?
What I do what was?
Where was my parenting fell?
Or you know those of those whohave served like church missions
.
You know you.
This is a.
This is something you alwaysdeal with the missionary is you
know, if I'm not, if I'm nothelping people come to the

(52:36):
savior, people aren't acceptingJesus Christ.
Is this my fault?
Like what could I have saiddifferently?
Wish I said differently.
So part of part of the, anaspect of the compensating power
of Christ that we haven'treally talked about is how
Christ makes up for ourstewardships, which is like when
we put in our best effort,christ makes our efforts
sufficient.
So he blesses our childrenbeyond what we can.

(53:00):
As we give our best effort.
He co-parents with us.
He carries our message to ourchildren's hearts greater than
we could with us.
He carries our message to ourchildren's hearts greater than
we could.
Same thing with, like you know,our stewardship's in a church,
responsibility is we're nevergoing to measure up to what
people need.

(53:20):
We're never going to measure upto who Jesus needs us to be.
And if we look forself-validation in the things
that we do, we'll never find itbecause we're imperfect.
But if we rely on the SaviorJesus Christ in all the aspects
of our life, including ourstewardships over other people,
we can find peace in knowingthat they're his children, that
he's the one that loves them waymore than we do and as we give

(53:43):
our best effort, he will makeour efforts enough and he will
help people and bless peoplelike beyond anything that we
could do.

Brett (53:52):
That's a.
That's a beautiful way to lookat it, like co-parenting with
Christ.
I think that's um, it'sdefinitely something that I've
I've seen in in my life.
Like thinking back at the timeswhen I was growing up and my
parents would teach me lessonsUm, I always remember like the
good ones stuck and I feel likethere were really moments of
clarity that I had just on myown when I would think about

(54:14):
them.
Obviously I wasn't like gettingsuper deep into like my own
thoughts.
My mom said this at dinner.
Maybe I should think about thatmore, but I just remember like
some things would stick waybetter than others and I
remember the thing that alwayshung above our door and the
thing my mom would always say isremember who you are.
I always just remember thinkingas a kid oh yeah, I'm a Rossel

(54:37):
and I'm a child of God.
That's always what my identitywas.
My parents never taught me thatlast piece, but it was always
just something that I kind ofpulled together, I believe,
because there had to be someonedirecting that, and I believe
that person to be Christ, atleast helping me understand it.

(54:58):
But I feel like that issomething that a lot of people
might have a lot of peace withunderstanding is that Christ
does help with our stewardshipwith others.
Um, you know, I I've met manyparents who have struggling
children, like you said, andthey placed the blame on
themselves and it's it's sad tosee, like it's a it's a heavy

(55:19):
weight to carry around andobviously I'm sure you know
there are some things that theycould have done differently, but
maybe at the end of the day,there wasn't, and everyone has
their own agency, otherwise itwould not be God's plan, and so
that's also something toremember.
Like anytime that there's yougive advice, or like you wish

(55:40):
you would have said somethingdifferent.
It's like, yes, you, there mayhave been something there, but
people have their own agency andthat's something that they
control.

BJ Allen (55:53):
And not just, not just there may have been something
there, but people have their ownagency and that's something
that they control.
Um, and and not just, not justthere may have been.
Like there was right.
Yeah, like think about you know, parents who children's go off
the bell like is there, arethere things you shouldn't?
The answer is yes, yeah,because you're imperfect.
But the ant, but, but like theantidote, there is Jesus Christ.
It is that he.
He never expected you to beperfect and as you do your best,

(56:14):
he's going to make up for thedifference.
And you know a Bible story thatmost people will be familiar
with that, I think, reallyillustrates this.
Is like the feeding of the5,000.
When Christ comes to hisapostles and says hey, you know,
we need to feed these people,and they're like this isn't
going to happen.
We all feel that way when we'regiven a responsibility.
I can't do this, I can't servein this calling and I can't do

(56:38):
this responsibility because I'mnot good enough.
And all Jesus does, all he says, is hey, give me your five
loaves and your two fishes, I'llbe the one who feeds these
people.
I just need you to give meeverything you have and, in the
end, like Jesus Christ, is theone who does.
Let me give you maybe anotherexample that I think is really

(56:58):
relevant to your generation isLike a lot of people your age,
they're just terrified of havingkids.
Because, like a lot of peopleyour age, they're just terrified
of having kids because not justthe responsibility that comes
with it you know the money andthe time and the lifestyle
change but also like they'rescared that they're going to
screw it up.
Like I can't be responsible foranother human, like I'm barely

(57:22):
I'm barely treading water myself.

Brett (57:24):
Yeah, it's definitely scary.
I mean, like, I have talked tomany of my friends and that is
something that they talk about,and then, um, it is interesting,
though, seeing the differencebetween people who just worry
about it, and then there'speople who have faith and and
walk into it.
Um, but it is something that Iknow my generation struggles
with is, uh, the idea of havingkids.

(57:46):
It's like the freedom's gone,less money, like all those
things that you mentioned, andthe world's crazy.
So, anyway, sorry to interruptyou.

BJ Allen (57:54):
No, no, I love that.
Yeah, thanks for thatvalidation.
So I think that you know, Ilike, I talked to, I talked to,
you know, young people or youngmoms and they're like I don't, I
, I'm, I'm afraid of messing up,I, I didn't grow up as a
christian.
Or I didn't go up, grow upgoing to church, and now I, now

(58:17):
I'm going to church, I want toraise my kids in church, but I
don't know how to do this.
I don't even know thescriptures.
How am I supposed to teach themmyself?
How am I supposed to?
How am I supposed to have afamily home evening?
I don't know how to do.
I don't know what that lookslike.
And, uh, excuse me, a scriptureI love to quote about this is in

(58:38):
in the book of mormon, insecond nephi 3, where, uh, the
prophets lamenting kind ofsimilar, like like I'm just not
very good at writing, and theLord says he says the weakness
of their words, while I makestrong in their faith, like, yes
, I know you're weak and I knowyour words are weak.
I'm not saying that you'regreat, but this is going to be a

(59:00):
success because I makeweaknesses into strengths, not
me.

Brett (59:06):
Jesus, I love that I make weaknesses into strengths Not
me, jesus, I love that Right, asJesus says, I make weaknesses
into strength.

BJ Allen (59:12):
The weakness of your words will I make strong in
their faith.
So if you think raising yourkids in the gospel relies on you
, you certainly are going tofail because you're weak and
you're human.
You're going to make mistakes.
But if we go into it saying,hey, like Jesus is going to make

(59:34):
up for what I lack as I give mybest effort, like that's a much
more hopeful attitude and amuch more truthful attitude if
you make Christ the center ofyour life.

Brett (59:40):
Yeah, that's beautiful and I agree with that.
Like we are all imperfectpeople, like you said earlier,
we live in a fallen world and weneed that power from Jesus
Christ to be able to makeeverything right.
So I think the idea of thecompensating power of Christ is
a beautiful one, and I apologizefor not having read your book

(01:00:03):
already.
I was going to, but I need tostudy it.
I think it was there's thingsin there that I'll forgive you.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you, I appreciate that,um, but, yeah, our generation, I
mean, I think there's a lotthat we could benefit from
understanding that and reallyeveryone, like how Jesus Christ

(01:00:24):
can help you in all areas ofyour life, not just with sin,
not just with death, but reallyeverything.
And I love what you saidearlier about how life sometimes
is unfair, like not everyonehas dealt a fair hand of cards,
but through Jesus Christ it canbe made whole Christ.

(01:00:49):
That can be made whole um,either in this life or the next,
but he helps us during thistime to to refine our strengths,
to push through Um, and thething that I just I always go
back to, anytime I'm goingthrough something difficult, is
that God never leaves my sideand, like Jesus Christ, knows
exactly the pain I'm feeling inthe moment it's happening, and

(01:01:17):
so I think it's a very beautifulconcept that I probably don't
know enough about but need tojust refine my own knowledge on
it, but it's something I'm gladthat you've written about
because it's you know it'sneeded.

BJ Allen (01:01:27):
It really is.
Yeah, well, thank you.

Brett (01:01:28):
Yeah and um, last last thing I want to ask you, and
then I'll, I'll, uh, let you goback to your, your family and
everything but, um, what's beenthe thing that's resonated to
you, with you, the most?
Um, through the whole processof writing your book?

BJ Allen (01:01:45):
Wow, that's a that's kind of like a heavy question.
It is a big one.
I mean maybe not a heavyquestion, but like there's just
so many things, so manydifferent ways I could answer
that I would.
I would maybe say this is thatyou know, if you're a Christian,
you probably have have heardabout Jesus Christ and learned

(01:02:15):
about him and at some point,probably thought like why is
this important?
You know is, or maybe thequestion would be, why is this
important in my day to day life?
I know that I need Jesus to beforgiven of sin, but you know,
like you know, I make mistakesevery day, but I'm not like a
big sinner, like I'm a prettygood person.
So, like I guess you know, if Ido something really bad then
I'll really rely on him.

(01:02:36):
But tomorrow I'm going to dothe dishes, I'm going to take my
kids to soccer, I'm going to goto work.
Like Jesus doesn't really seemthat relevant sometimes.
Like Jesus doesn't really seemthat relevant sometimes and I
say that you know facetiously,and I mean it in not trying to
be disrespectful, but I'm justtrying to be honest that a lot
of us think that way, maybe notcognitive or maybe not

(01:02:59):
consciously, but subconsciously,or even if you're not religious
right, maybe you've wonderedlike why is God relevant to me,
or why do I need him?
And, to be totally honest, likethat's kind of like how I felt,
like probably, you know, a goodportion of of my teenage life
and even maybe sometimes as ayoung adult, and the process of

(01:03:21):
writing this book and studyingthe atonement from this
perspective has just helped merealize that Jesus Christ is a
lot more relevant and a part ofmy day-to-day life than I
previously thought.
So when I'm having a discussionwith my kid, if I'm inviting
Jesus into my life, jesus isthere with me.

(01:03:43):
As I'm doing something at work,Jesus is there with me.
Jesus knows that I'm weak andhe knows that I live in a fallen
world, because he sent me hereto learn and to have
difficulties and to have trials,but he didn't send me here to
be alone, and so I would say,for me that's been really maybe

(01:04:03):
the biggest thing in writingthis book is that Jesus Christ
has really become my friend,versus kind of like a distant,
abstract figure is he's becomesomething that's that's
intimately involved in my life.

Brett (01:04:16):
I love that.
That was a beautiful answer andI know it was a heavy question,
but, um, the only thing I wouldadd onto that is he wants to be
part of our lives.

BJ Allen (01:04:26):
Yes, I love that.

Brett (01:04:27):
We have to invite him in, and I always think of that
picture of him knocking on thedoor.
You know there's no handle andwe have to be the ones that let
him.
Let him in, um, but it reallyis beautiful and um, I give you
my word that I'll.
I'll finish the book because Iwant to learn more about this.
So, um, but for anyone elsewhere?

BJ Allen (01:04:50):
where could they find it and where could they find
some of your other work?
Yeah, so I mean you can go tomy website, bjallennet, if you
want to kind of just browse umto see more of what the book's
about, and also you can see someof the other podcasts I've been
on.
If you really if you want toget the book, uh, you can go to.
You can go to Amazon, you canbuy the hardcover or you can buy
the Kindle version, or you cango to Deseret Book if you live

(01:05:12):
here in Utah or theIntermountain West, or you can
go to Segal Book and I thinkit's like 20% off there.
So if you live near Segal, thatwould be the go-to place.

Brett (01:05:24):
There we go.
I appreciate it, bj.
Seriously, it was greatchatting with you.
I learned a lot and I expect tolearn more as I read your book.
But thanks for being open abouteverything that you're teaching
at BYU but then also just withJesus Christ.
That's a message I thinkeveryone could use a little bit

(01:05:46):
more, and hopefully other peoplewho are not members and want to
learn more, like always, feelfree to reach out to me, happy
to chat about it, but reallyappreciate your time and
everything that you're doing, atleast for BYU and teaching the
next generation, because I'veactually worked with some of
your students and they'refantastic, so you're doing great

(01:06:07):
work.

BJ Allen (01:06:08):
Hey, well, thank you, and thank you so much for having
me on.

Brett (01:06:11):
I've really enjoyed our discussion, yeah likewise and
appreciate everyone forlistening and, as always, keep
getting after it.