July 26, 2024 • 39 mins
In this episode, Niki interviews Jamie Tyberg, organizer with Nodutdol to discuss why the Korean War is so unknown amongst Americans, why there are "two" Koreas, the US' continued and increasing aggression against the Korean peninsula and what that means for the region and the rest of the world, why a ceasefire is not enough, and the fight for reunification of Korean families.
Nodutdol's latest campaign, US Out of Korea launches all over the US on July 27th.
★ Support this podcast on Patreon ★Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Niki (00:20):
Hey, everyone. You are tuned in for another episode of
getting to the root of it withVenus roots, aka me, your host.
And it has been an absolutelywild time. I feel like every
hour, there are newdevelopments, coming out of the
sort of political establishmentand political elite in the
(00:43):
United States. So sort ofconversation for today, I feel,
is, like, as relevant as ever,as urgent as ever.
So I'm really excited, to bejoined today with Jamie Teiberg,
an organizer with Notutol. Thankyou so much for being on the
show, Jamie.
Jamie (01:02):
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk with you.
Niki (01:07):
Yeah. I mean, you know, Jamie, something that comes to
mind is, like, in just the lastcouple of days, you know, in the
past couple weeks, so mucharound, like, the political
legitimacy of the parties in theUnited States and their sort of
aggression towards the globalsouth has been just, like, a
(01:29):
topic that has been not just inthe minds of, I think,
progressive people or people indiaspora, but also just even
mainstream news. Right? I thinkpeople are asking what will be
the legacy of politicianwarmongers like Joe Biden. And
it makes me really excited tohave this conversation with you
today because when I think ofKorea, it's of course, the US is
(01:55):
known to villainize and createthese absurd propaganda
narratives, about anyone thatchooses to, you know, sort of
assert themselves and lead theirown country in the way that they
choose.
But I really think that Koreagets some of the worst, most
vile propaganda. And I myself,as someone who cares a lot about
(02:17):
politics and history and, like,kind of making sense of the
world, I didn't really know muchabout the Korean War or even why
there is a, quote, unquote,North Korean, quote, unquote,
South Korea from even just,like, a couple years ago. And
I'm still really early in myunderstandings. I'm really early
in, like, trying to understandwhy all of that happened. So can
(02:40):
you sort of, like, lay somecontext for us?
Like, for people who arelistening are like, yeah. I
actually don't know what theKorean War is. I don't know why
there are 2 Koreas. Like, canyou sort of ground us a little
bit on, like, how did thisreality come to be, and and what
are sort of the interests atplay?
Jamie (03:00):
Totally. The Korean War is often referred to as the
forgotten war in Korea peacemovement spaces and, organizing
among the Korean diasporaprecisely because it's really
not in the American publicconsciousness. And what might
(03:22):
exist about Korea out there inthe public sphere is so
propaganda driven like you'resaying. Some of the most
vilifying narratives are spreadabout Korea and North Korea in
particular. I think maybe partof the reason why it is so
forgotten is because the Koreanwar actually marks the beginning
(03:46):
of America's imperialist warsafter it really cements itself
as the world hegemony after, thesecond World War.
The Korean War happens almostimmediately after in 1950, and
it only really gains attentionfrom committed organizers, anti
(04:12):
war organizers, a lot of blackcommunists, particularly because
it's a lot of black men that areconscripted to go fight over
there. And it actually sets theground for the huge anti war
movement that would come duringthe Vietnam War after. But to
(04:35):
speak a little bit as to why theKorean War even happened, why
there are 2 Koreas. For over a1000 years, Korea was one
country under a sharedterritory, system of governance,
national language, culture. Butit had to fight a lot of foreign
(05:00):
powers, and forces ofoccupation, including, you know,
France and, the British, butmost prominently Japan, which is
the closest country, in terms ofthe colonizers.
At the same time that Germanyand Italy are really trying to
(05:25):
expand their fascist empires inEurope, Japan is doing the same
thing in East Asia. And Koreansfight for their independence
from Japanese colonization foryears. And when they finally are
able to kick out the Japanese,especially because Japan is, you
(05:47):
know, bombed twice, by Americaduring the 2nd World War, It
declares the Korean People'sRepublic. People are forming
their own self governance.People are really celebrating
their hard earned independence.
And because of what's happeningin its allied countries such as,
(06:12):
the Soviet Union as well as thePeople's Republic of China, the
new independent Korea reallyleans socialist. And that was a
huge threat to the US, becauseonce they've defeated the Nazis,
their next the US' next enemyreally becomes communism and the
(06:34):
new emerging powers of theSoviet Union. And so having
Korea turn into a socialistcountry is a huge threat to the
US. And they decide, you knowwhat? That really doesn't work
with us.
And so they land in Korea in thepeninsula just days after the
(06:55):
Korean People's Republic isestablished. And General
MacArthur of the US militaryactually issues a proclamation
to the Korean people Without anyconsent or will of the Korean
people, he announces that the USmilitary will now control Korea
(07:17):
south of the 38th parallel. Sothere's, you know, anecdotes and
direct quotes from US soldierswho are like, I knew nothing
about Korea. I knew nothingabout the Korean peninsula. But
just one day, I was tasked withdrawing a line across the
country to see which parts theUS should have control over.
(07:38):
And so that really marks thebeginning of the Korean War
because so many of the Koreanswho soldiers and, you know,
militant communists, and justorganizers in general do not
want to lose their hard earnedindependence and their national
(08:00):
liberation project must bedefended. And so this is where
the narrative of, oh, NorthKorea invaded South Korea. But
when you think about it, onecountry can't invade themselves.
You know, Korea can't invadeKorea. And so what happened was
that the North, which wasinvested in this project of
(08:21):
national liberation, then goesto war with the US military
occupation that is happening inthe South, and that marks the
beginning of the Korean War.
And so it's, again, not that theNorth, quote, unquote, invaded
the South, but that fighters ofindependence and protectors of
(08:44):
Korean National Liberation go towar with the US military
occupation?
Niki (08:53):
I you know, there's I mean, there's a lot there. Like,
I think the to hear the youknow, this white American
military general sort ofarbitrarily without any sense of
consent or will of the Koreanpeople, goes on to decide, you
(09:15):
know, this arbitrary divisionwhere families are separated.
There's antagonism that I think,of course, you know and I know
you speak to, that follows,right, up to this day. Right?
Like, to this day, there's stillthis, this arbitrage division
that has become real in a lot ofways, and propped up by the US.
And something that you mentionedthat, you know, kind of got my
(09:37):
head spinning was sort of theconnection between, like, black
men having to, you know, be partof the the military and go to
this faraway land, you know, togo attack people of color and
people in the global south. AndI think it constantly draws to
the ways in which, like, so manyof us, you know, whether we
(09:59):
whether we choose it or not, areinterconnected. And I think to
people who might be asking likewell you know what does Korea
have to do with me? It's like Ithink the answer is always so
much. Right?
You know when you were sayingthis I was thinking like the
fact that my dad moved to the USwas in 1973 during the Vietnam
(10:19):
War, and that's just, like, whatthey were doing to, like,
recruit young, poor, PuertoRicans on the island. And it
was, like, you know, pitched asthis, like, way to advance your
life. You know? And and my dad,like, you know, share stories of
being, like, I didn't even speakEnglish and thinking, like, I'm
gonna get sent to Vietnam. Like,I don't even know what that is.
(10:42):
You know, and it was to fightthis enemy of communism. But,
yeah, it makes me think of theways in where all these sort of
imperialist battles areconnected in, like, so many
explicit and, subtle ways. But Ithink, you know, around Korea,
like, how are you all in yourorganizing work sort of making
sense around, you know,reunification or, you know,
(11:04):
where where is the sort ofdiaspora, and where is the sort
of conversation now? Right? Youknow, fast forwarding to today,
what's the sort of relationshipbetween the US and, quote,
unquote, South Korea, NorthKorea?
And, like, what does it mean forKorean families and Korean
people?
Jamie (11:21):
Mhmm. Yeah. Of course, you know, the country is not
homogeneous, and so there's awide range of opinions about the
US military, or North Korea. Butone sentiment that I think rings
(11:41):
true with really everybody isthat they want reunification.
The Korean war was from 1950 to1953.
And so there are families, evenmy grandma whose siblings went
up to the North, to join theLiberation Army to fight the US,
(12:02):
was never actually able toreturn to the South, after the
line was drawn and the countrywas divided. And so it's not and
also it's not just Koreans inthe US with US passports that
aren't allowed to go to NorthKorea, but South Korean citizens
also aren't allowed to go toNorth Korea. And so families,
(12:23):
siblings, loved ones remaindivided. And, you know, people
that have been split when theywere, say, like, the age of, you
know, 7 or 8 are now nearingtheir death, and they still
haven't been able to be reunitedwith their families. They don't
even know how they spent therest of their lives, and how
(12:46):
they grew up.
And so I think despite the widerange of opinions about the US
military, it's the the desirefor reunification is really
there. And I think Korea is alsoa really great example in terms
(13:08):
of why a ceasefire isn't enough.The reason why Korea still
remains divided today is becausewhile there was a ceasefire to,
pause the war, no formal peaceagreement was ever reached to
permanently end the war. Andthat's precisely because people
(13:31):
in the North, especially theones that were extremely
disciplined and revolutionary,wanted an independent
reunification They wanted thereunification to happen under
(13:52):
US' terms or really the USwanted this. Right?
They would implement puppetgovernments, that would just
listen to anything they said.And so there was constant
tension about how thereunification process would
happen, whether it would beindependent, determined by the
(14:13):
people of Korea democratically,or that it would happen through
the US military and their terms.And so because of this, no
formal agreement could bereached. And that's why the
country still remains dividedtoday. And so that really tells
us while a ceasefire may pausethe war, it only gave new life
(14:39):
to the US occupation andpresence on Korea.
Today, there's still nearly30,000 US soldiers stationed in
in South Korea across 62military bases. And the largest,
American military base outsideof North America is actually in
(14:59):
South Korea. And so the USreally continues to impede
against the will of the Koreanpeople. And they are the primary
reason for this division and,what is inhibiting the peaceful
reunification of the peninsula?
Niki (15:21):
I mean, it's there's so much wild shit there. I think
for anyone, especially if youare a taxpayer in the United
States, like, I think it'sinfuriating to hear that how
much our government is justinfatuated, obsessed, with, you
(15:41):
know, military occupation in allits forms. Right? Like, to hear
that the largest military baseoutside of North America is in
South Korea and to think of allthe resources, like, all the
labor. You know, I mean, it'slike the physical bases, the
military soldiers that arethere, the sort of, like,
intellectual power that theseAmerican political system are
(16:05):
expending to constantly come upwith ways and, like, propaganda
talking points.
And I think we all know, like,aggression towards Korea has
not, diminished by any way, andI appreciate this connection
between, yeah, like, a reckoningof what does a ceasefire mean in
practicality and the ways inwhich it's insufficient, and how
to, like, sort of take lessonsfrom the Korean people in this
(16:29):
moment. It it does make methink, how are you all as
organizers kind of sort ofassessing this moment? I think
we all know we're, like, in avery particular historical
political conjuncture that sortof seems like it's shifting, you
know, day by day, hour by hoursometimes. And it seems like US
(16:50):
hegemony is is in its fractureit's in a fracturing moment.
Right?
And which is exciting forbillions of people across the
world. So curious for you all asorganizers in the diaspora, kind
of how are y'all prioritizingthis this sort of moment? How
are you all moving throughorganizing in diaspora? And,
(17:13):
like, what what is next for youall? Mhmm.
Jamie (17:18):
Yeah. I mean, referring back to the beginning of the
Korean War and how that was oneof the first or the first,
imperialist war for Americaafter gaining its hegemony as a
world power after the secondWorld War. We're in a completely
different place now where thathegemony is in decline. The US
(17:44):
is declining on the world stagepolitically, economically,
financially. Really, the onlypower that it has left is
military power, military force.
And we're really seeing that inKorea as well as just the
Pacific at large because US wardrills have been increasing, and
(18:07):
their aggression against NorthKorea has been increasing. And
it's causing so much tension onthe peninsula. I mean, just last
year, the US conducted 200 daysof war drills in Korea. And
these war drills includerehearsals for what it would
look like for them to invadeNorth Korea. And as you're
(18:31):
saying, all of it is paid byAmerican tax dollars, some of it
Korean, South Korean taxdollars.
So many 1,000,000,000 of dollarsthat could be spent on real
social services that we arelacking on in our day to day
life. And these increasedtensions and military aggression
(18:55):
is really bringing us closer towar in Asia. And because of the
US's division, US's militaryoccupation of South Korea, North
Korea has had to respond withbuilding up its defenses. I
(19:16):
mean, what else would you do asa country if this foreign
occupying power on the southernhalf of your own country's land
is rehearsing invading yourcountry? And it was the US
actually that first introducednuclear weapons to the
(19:36):
peninsula.
They snuck in nuclear weapons toSouth Korea without actually
telling South Korea that theywere doing that. And we might
remember again, that the US wasthe only country in the history
of the world to ever dropnuclear weapons on another
country.
Niki (19:53):
Which is wild for a country that is obsessed with
pointing the finger to othercountries
Jamie (19:59):
and No. Totally. You know, they're
Niki (20:00):
obsessed with the line of weapons of mass destruction,
nuclear weapons. We're just, youknow, and it's
Jamie (20:07):
Yeah. Everyone can have it, or no one can have it but
them. And so because of this,the increasing tensions could
really easily lead to nuclearwar because now the South has
it. And in response, the Northhas had to build that up. And,
(20:29):
you know, to go back to Bidenand what his legacy will be now
that he's has stepped down forKoreans or people of the Korean
diaspora.
To us, Biden's legacy isincreasing tensions on the
peninsula to the point thatNorth Korea is now giving up on
(20:49):
a peaceful reunification, whichis a policy that they've pursued
so consistently and sorigorously for decades. But
because through US, you know,backed policies, the South
Korean government is becoming sohostile to North Korea that
(21:10):
they're no longer interested indialogue with the US. They're no
longer thinking that a peacefulreunification is feasible. And
so the possibility of war ishigher than ever on the
peninsula today.
Niki (21:28):
Wow. I mean, this is always really clarifying, and
it's sort of useful because Ithink, obviously, in the west,
it's clear, like, we are gettinga very particular narrative, I
mean, set to serve, USinterests. And I think when a
lot of American people are,like, hearing in the news or
seeing on their phone on socialmedia, I think it's easy to
(21:51):
think that North Korea is thisreally difficult and, you know,
this difficult government thatwon't won't negotiate and, like,
doesn't you know, they're justso difficult to deal with, and
they're the ones that are, like,taking us to the brink of
nuclear war, which impacts everysingle person in this in this
planet. And I think this isreally clarifying and helpful
(22:15):
because it's like that's, youknow, not only is that
inaccurate, but it's also justso incomplete. Right?
I think the US does do a reallyamazing job of sort of, like,
kind of removing itself from theblame equation or from the
equation of responsibility. AndI think everything you're
(22:35):
saying, I think anyone would doexactly that. Right? Any
sovereign government that feelsan increased hostility and, you
know, this idea of sneaking inweapons. I mean, I think that's
absolutely insane.
Like, I I hope that allAmericans know this or, like,
learn this because it's, like, Ithink it's infuriating for us. I
(22:58):
think it is interesting, like,this moment. I don't think anti
war is right now solely, like, aprogressive movement. I think
everything that's happening inPalestine has shown that, you
know, even people who are not,like, super radical or, you
know, like, might know a lotabout history are feeling
betrayed by the Americangovernment that they see their
(23:20):
sort of realities here in thiscountry decline by the day. You
know, it's you spoke to, like,us not having basic social
services, and I think that'smore and more apparent every
day.
But then to know that instead,they're investing in aggression
and in, you know, bringing waras more of a possibility to the
(23:41):
world. So you all, as anorganization, you know, you all
are sort of making all thesepolitical analyses and sort of
sharpening your understanding.Are there sort of asks or sort
of things that you all wantpeople to be keeping in mind in
this moment as we see the sortof, like, political theater
unfolds every week. For peoplewho are, like, hearing this for
(24:03):
the first time and feelingmoved, like, wow. This is crazy.
I actually didn't know any ofthis information. There's a lot
of ways in which it impacts. Imean, of course, it impacts all
of us. What are the sort of waysin which you all are kind of
creating entry points right nowif someone wants to get
organized? What's happening now?
Jamie (24:21):
Yeah. I think on an individual level, for folks who
are really coming around to theissue of Korea for the first
time, I would ask that you askquestions. You know? Just simply
question everything that iscoming out of US propaganda. You
(24:43):
know, I think the the ceasefire,negotiations, regarding
Palestine is a really greatexample of how many lies the US
government just repeatedly makesup.
If you were to just watch, youknow, a mainstream cable news
network, you would really thinkthat it's Hamas that's refusing
(25:07):
to any of the ceasefireagreements. But we're hearing
directly from, the politicalparties in Palestine or the
people in Palestine saying Hamashas agreed to almost everything
and has made so many concessionsjust to ensure a ceasefire for
their people. And it is Israeland the US that are saying no at
(25:29):
every turn. It's the it's thesame model for Korea. It's North
Korea that has pursued peacefulreunification.
It's North Korea that has dealtwith sanctions for decades,
imposed by the US government.It's the North Korean people
that have suffered, not beingable to be reunited with their
(25:50):
families, or just, again, havebasic necessities, like, for the
reproduction of their life andtheir economy. It is the US that
is the real culprit as to whythere is increasing tensions on
the peninsula, as to why peopleare quote, unquote starving or
experiencing famine. And themore we can question all of the
(26:16):
misinformation and thepropaganda that is being fed to
us by the US government, thecloser we can become to the
truth. And on a larger level, myorganization, Noritor, is
launching a new campaign calledUS out of Korea, and we'll be
(26:39):
organizing more events andrallies in the upcoming months.
And so I would hope that peopleplug in and get involved and
share with their friends andfamilies and, you know, do what
they can to help really broadenand strengthen this, new or not
(26:59):
new, but a reemerging antiimperialist movement, here in
the United States.
Niki (27:08):
Yes. That's so exciting. This political moment has
honestly awakened andreenergized so many people
across age and different cities.And I'd love to hear a little
bit more about the campaign andthe demands and for people who
(27:29):
are listening or wanna throw itdown, how they can get involved.
Jamie (27:33):
Totally. You know, as an organization made up of the
Korean diaspora, as well asother diaspora across Asia, we
really consider this US out ofKorea campaign as not just
something that concerns Koreans,but as something that will build
(27:55):
up our capacity, here in theempire to oppose and defeat
imperialism once and for all.Our strategy is that by
leveraging our own nationalliberation struggle, we can join
in and contribute to andstrengthen this anti imperialist
(28:16):
front, within the empire. And wereally want to, you know, 1st
and foremost, educate, andconsolidate the existing
progressive propaganda. And Ithink by uniting this broader
(28:41):
anti imperialist movement aroundKorea as one of the national
liberation struggles, thesharper our analysis will
become, about imperialism andabout the different roles that
all the different diaspora andall the different sectors across
US society can play.
(29:01):
In terms of our demands, we dohave, 4 main demands. I wanna
note that all of these aredirected against or at the US
government as opposed to theSouth Korean government because
we are an organization made upof primarily US citizens, here
in the empire. The first demandis US out of Korea. We demand
(29:27):
the full and permanentwithdrawal of US troops and
weapon systems from Korea. Andwe demand that all the Korean
land, water, and airspaceappropriated for the US military
be returned to the Koreanpeople.
Our second demand is end the USSouth Korea alliance. I'll
(29:51):
briefly expand upon this a bit.As I alluded to earlier, the US
is really grasping onto itsmilitary power because it's
declining and losing power inall other areas. And so in Asia
and the Pacific specifically,they really relied on enlisting
(30:15):
support from South Korea, Japan,the Philippines, Thailand, and
Australia to supplement itsdefense capabilities. And so
under these, you know, militaryalliances, The US military has
unrestricted access to the useof South Korean military bases.
(30:39):
They can actually enlist all theSouth Korean soldiers, for any
time of war, And the US militaryholds operational wartime
command over the South Koreanmilitary. And so we want or
demand an end to all of thesejoint command structures and the
(31:01):
military alliance, becausethat's really the only way to
achieve a lasting politicalsolution in Korea. Our third
demand is to end all aggressionagainst North Korea. Again, the
US has imposed, a near blockadesanctions on North Korea and its
(31:22):
26,000,000 people. This reallydirectly attacks the livelihoods
of families.
It creates shortages and goodsnecessary for the health of the
population, and it really stuntsthe development of the country's
economy. All of these things,conditions that they're creating
in North Korea, they then twistand use, for their propaganda
(31:46):
saying that, you know, thegovernment is starving their
people. The government does notprovide goods for their people.
But those are the results of USsanctions, not the North Korean
government. And we want an anend to all US military exercises
in Korea because, again, all ofthe war drills, all of the
(32:10):
sneaking in of the nuclearweapons, poses an existential
threat, not only to North Korea,but to the world again because
it could easily escalate to anuclear war.
And lastly, we want an end tothe war economy. The US
(32:30):
government spends an estimated1,500,000,000,000 annually on
war on the on building up itsmilitary capacities. It's also
one of the world's largestweapons producers and exporters,
and the US military itself isone of the biggest institutional
(32:52):
environmental polluters on thehistory of our planet. So much
of this comes at the expense ofjust everyday services that we
need to, you know, reach ourfull potential beyond just mere
survival, whether that'shousing, education, health care.
(33:15):
And the wealth that they arepouring towards this war economy
is actually wealth that is madeby us, made by working people in
the US.
And so we really demand that allof that go to working people and
our needs and our wants.
Niki (33:35):
There's so much at stake. And, you know, when I hear you
walk through these demands, itreally reminds me that there's
so many reasons why we must getorganized. And that makes me
wanna ask you, Jamie, for peoplewho are listening and, you know,
feel activated but might notthink of themselves as
(33:57):
organizers or have a lot ofexperience with organization.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat fear or hesitancy?
Jamie (34:08):
Yeah. I mean, I sometimes joke, that, like, joining
Notedor got rid of my depressionand my anxiety. But there's
really something to be saidabout being part of a collective
and being part of somethingthat's larger than myself.
Because when we think about allof the problems that we're
(34:31):
facing, it it is really, reallyoverwhelming, and it is really
anxiety inducing. And there issimply no way that we could
address any of them on our ownor through just one off projects
here and there.
You know, we it really requiresa daily commitment, making time
(34:51):
every single day of our lives,to be disciplined and to come
together as an organized groupof people, and, you know, vision
together as well as createconcrete steps towards towards
that vision and making that areality. And I would just advise
(35:16):
that, you know, there is noperfect organization that you
can just join, and there's noperfect time, for you to join 1.
You really have to sacrificecertain things, to make time for
organizing. And even when youjoin, you really have to,
(35:37):
struggle with others together tomake the organization something
greater. And, you know, I thinkbelieving in, your ability to
change and grow and believing inother people's ability to change
and grow, is really, really keyhere.
Niki (35:59):
Yeah. I could really resonate with that. I mean, I
feel like for me personally, ittook people believing in my
leadership and believing that Iwould be able to develop and do
things that I personally didn'tthink I could, you know, and
that completely transformed thesort of trajectory of my life
(36:21):
and quite frankly, and I knowthis and believe this, that
wouldn't have been possiblewithout organization. So
absolutely affirming, yes.Jamie, thank you so so much for
being in the show.
Thank you for your clarity, yourcommitment, and thank you for
the invitation for all of us tosupport this campaign, US out of
(36:45):
Korea.
Jamie (36:46):
Thank you so much.
Hey, everyone. You are tuned in for another episode of
getting to the root of it withVenus roots, aka me, your host.
And it has been an absolutelywild time. I feel like every
hour, there are newdevelopments, coming out of the
sort of political establishmentand political elite in the
(00:43):
United States. So sort ofconversation for today, I feel,
is, like, as relevant as ever,as urgent as ever.
So I'm really excited, to bejoined today with Jamie Teiberg,
an organizer with Notutol. Thankyou so much for being on the
show, Jamie.
Jamie (01:02):
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk with you.
Niki (01:07):
Yeah. I mean, you know, Jamie, something that comes to
mind is, like, in just the lastcouple of days, you know, in the
past couple weeks, so mucharound, like, the political
legitimacy of the parties in theUnited States and their sort of
aggression towards the globalsouth has been just, like, a
(01:29):
topic that has been not just inthe minds of, I think,
progressive people or people indiaspora, but also just even
mainstream news. Right? I thinkpeople are asking what will be
the legacy of politicianwarmongers like Joe Biden. And
it makes me really excited tohave this conversation with you
today because when I think ofKorea, it's of course, the US is
(01:55):
known to villainize and createthese absurd propaganda
narratives, about anyone thatchooses to, you know, sort of
assert themselves and lead theirown country in the way that they
choose.
But I really think that Koreagets some of the worst, most
vile propaganda. And I myself,as someone who cares a lot about
(02:17):
politics and history and, like,kind of making sense of the
world, I didn't really know muchabout the Korean War or even why
there is a, quote, unquote,North Korean, quote, unquote,
South Korea from even just,like, a couple years ago. And
I'm still really early in myunderstandings. I'm really early
in, like, trying to understandwhy all of that happened. So can
(02:40):
you sort of, like, lay somecontext for us?
Like, for people who arelistening are like, yeah. I
actually don't know what theKorean War is. I don't know why
there are 2 Koreas. Like, canyou sort of ground us a little
bit on, like, how did thisreality come to be, and and what
are sort of the interests atplay?
Jamie (03:00):
Totally. The Korean War is often referred to as the
forgotten war in Korea peacemovement spaces and, organizing
among the Korean diasporaprecisely because it's really
not in the American publicconsciousness. And what might
(03:22):
exist about Korea out there inthe public sphere is so
propaganda driven like you'resaying. Some of the most
vilifying narratives are spreadabout Korea and North Korea in
particular. I think maybe partof the reason why it is so
forgotten is because the Koreanwar actually marks the beginning
(03:46):
of America's imperialist warsafter it really cements itself
as the world hegemony after, thesecond World War.
The Korean War happens almostimmediately after in 1950, and
it only really gains attentionfrom committed organizers, anti
(04:12):
war organizers, a lot of blackcommunists, particularly because
it's a lot of black men that areconscripted to go fight over
there. And it actually sets theground for the huge anti war
movement that would come duringthe Vietnam War after. But to
(04:35):
speak a little bit as to why theKorean War even happened, why
there are 2 Koreas. For over a1000 years, Korea was one
country under a sharedterritory, system of governance,
national language, culture. Butit had to fight a lot of foreign
(05:00):
powers, and forces ofoccupation, including, you know,
France and, the British, butmost prominently Japan, which is
the closest country, in terms ofthe colonizers.
At the same time that Germanyand Italy are really trying to
(05:25):
expand their fascist empires inEurope, Japan is doing the same
thing in East Asia. And Koreansfight for their independence
from Japanese colonization foryears. And when they finally are
able to kick out the Japanese,especially because Japan is, you
(05:47):
know, bombed twice, by Americaduring the 2nd World War, It
declares the Korean People'sRepublic. People are forming
their own self governance.People are really celebrating
their hard earned independence.
And because of what's happeningin its allied countries such as,
(06:12):
the Soviet Union as well as thePeople's Republic of China, the
new independent Korea reallyleans socialist. And that was a
huge threat to the US, becauseonce they've defeated the Nazis,
their next the US' next enemyreally becomes communism and the
(06:34):
new emerging powers of theSoviet Union. And so having
Korea turn into a socialistcountry is a huge threat to the
US. And they decide, you knowwhat? That really doesn't work
with us.
And so they land in Korea in thepeninsula just days after the
(06:55):
Korean People's Republic isestablished. And General
MacArthur of the US militaryactually issues a proclamation
to the Korean people Without anyconsent or will of the Korean
people, he announces that the USmilitary will now control Korea
(07:17):
south of the 38th parallel. Sothere's, you know, anecdotes and
direct quotes from US soldierswho are like, I knew nothing
about Korea. I knew nothingabout the Korean peninsula. But
just one day, I was tasked withdrawing a line across the
country to see which parts theUS should have control over.
(07:38):
And so that really marks thebeginning of the Korean War
because so many of the Koreanswho soldiers and, you know,
militant communists, and justorganizers in general do not
want to lose their hard earnedindependence and their national
(08:00):
liberation project must bedefended. And so this is where
the narrative of, oh, NorthKorea invaded South Korea. But
when you think about it, onecountry can't invade themselves.
You know, Korea can't invadeKorea. And so what happened was
that the North, which wasinvested in this project of
(08:21):
national liberation, then goesto war with the US military
occupation that is happening inthe South, and that marks the
beginning of the Korean War.
And so it's, again, not that theNorth, quote, unquote, invaded
the South, but that fighters ofindependence and protectors of
(08:44):
Korean National Liberation go towar with the US military
occupation?
Niki (08:53):
I you know, there's I mean, there's a lot there. Like,
I think the to hear the youknow, this white American
military general sort ofarbitrarily without any sense of
consent or will of the Koreanpeople, goes on to decide, you
(09:15):
know, this arbitrary divisionwhere families are separated.
There's antagonism that I think,of course, you know and I know
you speak to, that follows,right, up to this day. Right?
Like, to this day, there's stillthis, this arbitrage division
that has become real in a lot ofways, and propped up by the US.
And something that you mentionedthat, you know, kind of got my
(09:37):
head spinning was sort of theconnection between, like, black
men having to, you know, be partof the the military and go to
this faraway land, you know, togo attack people of color and
people in the global south. AndI think it constantly draws to
the ways in which, like, so manyof us, you know, whether we
(09:59):
whether we choose it or not, areinterconnected. And I think to
people who might be asking likewell you know what does Korea
have to do with me? It's like Ithink the answer is always so
much. Right?
You know when you were sayingthis I was thinking like the
fact that my dad moved to the USwas in 1973 during the Vietnam
(10:19):
War, and that's just, like, whatthey were doing to, like,
recruit young, poor, PuertoRicans on the island. And it
was, like, you know, pitched asthis, like, way to advance your
life. You know? And and my dad,like, you know, share stories of
being, like, I didn't even speakEnglish and thinking, like, I'm
gonna get sent to Vietnam. Like,I don't even know what that is.
(10:42):
You know, and it was to fightthis enemy of communism. But,
yeah, it makes me think of theways in where all these sort of
imperialist battles areconnected in, like, so many
explicit and, subtle ways. But Ithink, you know, around Korea,
like, how are you all in yourorganizing work sort of making
sense around, you know,reunification or, you know,
(11:04):
where where is the sort ofdiaspora, and where is the sort
of conversation now? Right? Youknow, fast forwarding to today,
what's the sort of relationshipbetween the US and, quote,
unquote, South Korea, NorthKorea?
And, like, what does it mean forKorean families and Korean
people?
Jamie (11:21):
Mhmm. Yeah. Of course, you know, the country is not
homogeneous, and so there's awide range of opinions about the
US military, or North Korea. Butone sentiment that I think rings
(11:41):
true with really everybody isthat they want reunification.
The Korean war was from 1950 to1953.
And so there are families, evenmy grandma whose siblings went
up to the North, to join theLiberation Army to fight the US,
(12:02):
was never actually able toreturn to the South, after the
line was drawn and the countrywas divided. And so it's not and
also it's not just Koreans inthe US with US passports that
aren't allowed to go to NorthKorea, but South Korean citizens
also aren't allowed to go toNorth Korea. And so families,
(12:23):
siblings, loved ones remaindivided. And, you know, people
that have been split when theywere, say, like, the age of, you
know, 7 or 8 are now nearingtheir death, and they still
haven't been able to be reunitedwith their families. They don't
even know how they spent therest of their lives, and how
(12:46):
they grew up.
And so I think despite the widerange of opinions about the US
military, it's the the desirefor reunification is really
there. And I think Korea is alsoa really great example in terms
(13:08):
of why a ceasefire isn't enough.The reason why Korea still
remains divided today is becausewhile there was a ceasefire to,
pause the war, no formal peaceagreement was ever reached to
permanently end the war. Andthat's precisely because people
(13:31):
in the North, especially theones that were extremely
disciplined and revolutionary,wanted an independent
reunification They wanted thereunification to happen under
(13:52):
US' terms or really the USwanted this. Right?
They would implement puppetgovernments, that would just
listen to anything they said.And so there was constant
tension about how thereunification process would
happen, whether it would beindependent, determined by the
(14:13):
people of Korea democratically,or that it would happen through
the US military and their terms.And so because of this, no
formal agreement could bereached. And that's why the
country still remains dividedtoday. And so that really tells
us while a ceasefire may pausethe war, it only gave new life
(14:39):
to the US occupation andpresence on Korea.
Today, there's still nearly30,000 US soldiers stationed in
in South Korea across 62military bases. And the largest,
American military base outsideof North America is actually in
(14:59):
South Korea. And so the USreally continues to impede
against the will of the Koreanpeople. And they are the primary
reason for this division and,what is inhibiting the peaceful
reunification of the peninsula?
Niki (15:21):
I mean, it's there's so much wild shit there. I think
for anyone, especially if youare a taxpayer in the United
States, like, I think it'sinfuriating to hear that how
much our government is justinfatuated, obsessed, with, you
(15:41):
know, military occupation in allits forms. Right? Like, to hear
that the largest military baseoutside of North America is in
South Korea and to think of allthe resources, like, all the
labor. You know, I mean, it'slike the physical bases, the
military soldiers that arethere, the sort of, like,
intellectual power that theseAmerican political system are
(16:05):
expending to constantly come upwith ways and, like, propaganda
talking points.
And I think we all know, like,aggression towards Korea has
not, diminished by any way, andI appreciate this connection
between, yeah, like, a reckoningof what does a ceasefire mean in
practicality and the ways inwhich it's insufficient, and how
to, like, sort of take lessonsfrom the Korean people in this
(16:29):
moment. It it does make methink, how are you all as
organizers kind of sort ofassessing this moment? I think
we all know we're, like, in avery particular historical
political conjuncture that sortof seems like it's shifting, you
know, day by day, hour by hoursometimes. And it seems like US
(16:50):
hegemony is is in its fractureit's in a fracturing moment.
Right?
And which is exciting forbillions of people across the
world. So curious for you all asorganizers in the diaspora, kind
of how are y'all prioritizingthis this sort of moment? How
are you all moving throughorganizing in diaspora? And,
(17:13):
like, what what is next for youall? Mhmm.
Jamie (17:18):
Yeah. I mean, referring back to the beginning of the
Korean War and how that was oneof the first or the first,
imperialist war for Americaafter gaining its hegemony as a
world power after the secondWorld War. We're in a completely
different place now where thathegemony is in decline. The US
(17:44):
is declining on the world stagepolitically, economically,
financially. Really, the onlypower that it has left is
military power, military force.
And we're really seeing that inKorea as well as just the
Pacific at large because US wardrills have been increasing, and
(18:07):
their aggression against NorthKorea has been increasing. And
it's causing so much tension onthe peninsula. I mean, just last
year, the US conducted 200 daysof war drills in Korea. And
these war drills includerehearsals for what it would
look like for them to invadeNorth Korea. And as you're
(18:31):
saying, all of it is paid byAmerican tax dollars, some of it
Korean, South Korean taxdollars.
So many 1,000,000,000 of dollarsthat could be spent on real
social services that we arelacking on in our day to day
life. And these increasedtensions and military aggression
(18:55):
is really bringing us closer towar in Asia. And because of the
US's division, US's militaryoccupation of South Korea, North
Korea has had to respond withbuilding up its defenses. I
(19:16):
mean, what else would you do asa country if this foreign
occupying power on the southernhalf of your own country's land
is rehearsing invading yourcountry? And it was the US
actually that first introducednuclear weapons to the
(19:36):
peninsula.
They snuck in nuclear weapons toSouth Korea without actually
telling South Korea that theywere doing that. And we might
remember again, that the US wasthe only country in the history
of the world to ever dropnuclear weapons on another
country.
Niki (19:53):
Which is wild for a country that is obsessed with
pointing the finger to othercountries
Jamie (19:59):
and No. Totally. You know, they're
Niki (20:00):
obsessed with the line of weapons of mass destruction,
nuclear weapons. We're just, youknow, and it's
Jamie (20:07):
Yeah. Everyone can have it, or no one can have it but
them. And so because of this,the increasing tensions could
really easily lead to nuclearwar because now the South has
it. And in response, the Northhas had to build that up. And,
(20:29):
you know, to go back to Bidenand what his legacy will be now
that he's has stepped down forKoreans or people of the Korean
diaspora.
To us, Biden's legacy isincreasing tensions on the
peninsula to the point thatNorth Korea is now giving up on
(20:49):
a peaceful reunification, whichis a policy that they've pursued
so consistently and sorigorously for decades. But
because through US, you know,backed policies, the South
Korean government is becoming sohostile to North Korea that
(21:10):
they're no longer interested indialogue with the US. They're no
longer thinking that a peacefulreunification is feasible. And
so the possibility of war ishigher than ever on the
peninsula today.
Niki (21:28):
Wow. I mean, this is always really clarifying, and
it's sort of useful because Ithink, obviously, in the west,
it's clear, like, we are gettinga very particular narrative, I
mean, set to serve, USinterests. And I think when a
lot of American people are,like, hearing in the news or
seeing on their phone on socialmedia, I think it's easy to
(21:51):
think that North Korea is thisreally difficult and, you know,
this difficult government thatwon't won't negotiate and, like,
doesn't you know, they're justso difficult to deal with, and
they're the ones that are, like,taking us to the brink of
nuclear war, which impacts everysingle person in this in this
planet. And I think this isreally clarifying and helpful
(22:15):
because it's like that's, youknow, not only is that
inaccurate, but it's also justso incomplete. Right?
I think the US does do a reallyamazing job of sort of, like,
kind of removing itself from theblame equation or from the
equation of responsibility. AndI think everything you're
(22:35):
saying, I think anyone would doexactly that. Right? Any
sovereign government that feelsan increased hostility and, you
know, this idea of sneaking inweapons. I mean, I think that's
absolutely insane.
Like, I I hope that allAmericans know this or, like,
learn this because it's, like, Ithink it's infuriating for us. I
(22:58):
think it is interesting, like,this moment. I don't think anti
war is right now solely, like, aprogressive movement. I think
everything that's happening inPalestine has shown that, you
know, even people who are not,like, super radical or, you
know, like, might know a lotabout history are feeling
betrayed by the Americangovernment that they see their
(23:20):
sort of realities here in thiscountry decline by the day. You
know, it's you spoke to, like,us not having basic social
services, and I think that'smore and more apparent every
day.
But then to know that instead,they're investing in aggression
and in, you know, bringing waras more of a possibility to the
(23:41):
world. So you all, as anorganization, you know, you all
are sort of making all thesepolitical analyses and sort of
sharpening your understanding.Are there sort of asks or sort
of things that you all wantpeople to be keeping in mind in
this moment as we see the sortof, like, political theater
unfolds every week. For peoplewho are, like, hearing this for
(24:03):
the first time and feelingmoved, like, wow. This is crazy.
I actually didn't know any ofthis information. There's a lot
of ways in which it impacts. Imean, of course, it impacts all
of us. What are the sort of waysin which you all are kind of
creating entry points right nowif someone wants to get
organized? What's happening now?
Jamie (24:21):
Yeah. I think on an individual level, for folks who
are really coming around to theissue of Korea for the first
time, I would ask that you askquestions. You know? Just simply
question everything that iscoming out of US propaganda. You
(24:43):
know, I think the the ceasefire,negotiations, regarding
Palestine is a really greatexample of how many lies the US
government just repeatedly makesup.
If you were to just watch, youknow, a mainstream cable news
network, you would really thinkthat it's Hamas that's refusing
(25:07):
to any of the ceasefireagreements. But we're hearing
directly from, the politicalparties in Palestine or the
people in Palestine saying Hamashas agreed to almost everything
and has made so many concessionsjust to ensure a ceasefire for
their people. And it is Israeland the US that are saying no at
(25:29):
every turn. It's the it's thesame model for Korea. It's North
Korea that has pursued peacefulreunification.
It's North Korea that has dealtwith sanctions for decades,
imposed by the US government.It's the North Korean people
that have suffered, not beingable to be reunited with their
(25:50):
families, or just, again, havebasic necessities, like, for the
reproduction of their life andtheir economy. It is the US that
is the real culprit as to whythere is increasing tensions on
the peninsula, as to why peopleare quote, unquote starving or
experiencing famine. And themore we can question all of the
(26:16):
misinformation and thepropaganda that is being fed to
us by the US government, thecloser we can become to the
truth. And on a larger level, myorganization, Noritor, is
launching a new campaign calledUS out of Korea, and we'll be
(26:39):
organizing more events andrallies in the upcoming months.
And so I would hope that peopleplug in and get involved and
share with their friends andfamilies and, you know, do what
they can to help really broadenand strengthen this, new or not
(26:59):
new, but a reemerging antiimperialist movement, here in
the United States.
Niki (27:08):
Yes. That's so exciting. This political moment has
honestly awakened andreenergized so many people
across age and different cities.And I'd love to hear a little
bit more about the campaign andthe demands and for people who
(27:29):
are listening or wanna throw itdown, how they can get involved.
Jamie (27:33):
Totally. You know, as an organization made up of the
Korean diaspora, as well asother diaspora across Asia, we
really consider this US out ofKorea campaign as not just
something that concerns Koreans,but as something that will build
(27:55):
up our capacity, here in theempire to oppose and defeat
imperialism once and for all.Our strategy is that by
leveraging our own nationalliberation struggle, we can join
in and contribute to andstrengthen this anti imperialist
(28:16):
front, within the empire. And wereally want to, you know, 1st
and foremost, educate, andconsolidate the existing
progressive propaganda. And Ithink by uniting this broader
(28:41):
anti imperialist movement aroundKorea as one of the national
liberation struggles, thesharper our analysis will
become, about imperialism andabout the different roles that
all the different diaspora andall the different sectors across
US society can play.
(29:01):
In terms of our demands, we dohave, 4 main demands. I wanna
note that all of these aredirected against or at the US
government as opposed to theSouth Korean government because
we are an organization made upof primarily US citizens, here
in the empire. The first demandis US out of Korea. We demand
(29:27):
the full and permanentwithdrawal of US troops and
weapon systems from Korea. Andwe demand that all the Korean
land, water, and airspaceappropriated for the US military
be returned to the Koreanpeople.
Our second demand is end the USSouth Korea alliance. I'll
(29:51):
briefly expand upon this a bit.As I alluded to earlier, the US
is really grasping onto itsmilitary power because it's
declining and losing power inall other areas. And so in Asia
and the Pacific specifically,they really relied on enlisting
(30:15):
support from South Korea, Japan,the Philippines, Thailand, and
Australia to supplement itsdefense capabilities. And so
under these, you know, militaryalliances, The US military has
unrestricted access to the useof South Korean military bases.
(30:39):
They can actually enlist all theSouth Korean soldiers, for any
time of war, And the US militaryholds operational wartime
command over the South Koreanmilitary. And so we want or
demand an end to all of thesejoint command structures and the
(31:01):
military alliance, becausethat's really the only way to
achieve a lasting politicalsolution in Korea. Our third
demand is to end all aggressionagainst North Korea. Again, the
US has imposed, a near blockadesanctions on North Korea and its
(31:22):
26,000,000 people. This reallydirectly attacks the livelihoods
of families.
It creates shortages and goodsnecessary for the health of the
population, and it really stuntsthe development of the country's
economy. All of these things,conditions that they're creating
in North Korea, they then twistand use, for their propaganda
(31:46):
saying that, you know, thegovernment is starving their
people. The government does notprovide goods for their people.
But those are the results of USsanctions, not the North Korean
government. And we want an anend to all US military exercises
in Korea because, again, all ofthe war drills, all of the
(32:10):
sneaking in of the nuclearweapons, poses an existential
threat, not only to North Korea,but to the world again because
it could easily escalate to anuclear war.
And lastly, we want an end tothe war economy. The US
(32:30):
government spends an estimated1,500,000,000,000 annually on
war on the on building up itsmilitary capacities. It's also
one of the world's largestweapons producers and exporters,
and the US military itself isone of the biggest institutional
(32:52):
environmental polluters on thehistory of our planet. So much
of this comes at the expense ofjust everyday services that we
need to, you know, reach ourfull potential beyond just mere
survival, whether that'shousing, education, health care.
(33:15):
And the wealth that they arepouring towards this war economy
is actually wealth that is madeby us, made by working people in
the US.
And so we really demand that allof that go to working people and
our needs and our wants.
Niki (33:35):
There's so much at stake. And, you know, when I hear you
walk through these demands, itreally reminds me that there's
so many reasons why we must getorganized. And that makes me
wanna ask you, Jamie, for peoplewho are listening and, you know,
feel activated but might notthink of themselves as
(33:57):
organizers or have a lot ofexperience with organization.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthat fear or hesitancy?
Jamie (34:08):
Yeah. I mean, I sometimes joke, that, like, joining
Notedor got rid of my depressionand my anxiety. But there's
really something to be saidabout being part of a collective
and being part of somethingthat's larger than myself.
Because when we think about allof the problems that we're
(34:31):
facing, it it is really, reallyoverwhelming, and it is really
anxiety inducing. And there issimply no way that we could
address any of them on our ownor through just one off projects
here and there.
You know, we it really requiresa daily commitment, making time
(34:51):
every single day of our lives,to be disciplined and to come
together as an organized groupof people, and, you know, vision
together as well as createconcrete steps towards towards
that vision and making that areality. And I would just advise
(35:16):
that, you know, there is noperfect organization that you
can just join, and there's noperfect time, for you to join 1.
You really have to sacrificecertain things, to make time for
organizing. And even when youjoin, you really have to,
(35:37):
struggle with others together tomake the organization something
greater. And, you know, I thinkbelieving in, your ability to
change and grow and believing inother people's ability to change
and grow, is really, really keyhere.
Niki (35:59):
Yeah. I could really resonate with that. I mean, I
feel like for me personally, ittook people believing in my
leadership and believing that Iwould be able to develop and do
things that I personally didn'tthink I could, you know, and
that completely transformed thesort of trajectory of my life
(36:21):
and quite frankly, and I knowthis and believe this, that
wouldn't have been possiblewithout organization. So
absolutely affirming, yes.Jamie, thank you so so much for
being in the show.
Thank you for your clarity, yourcommitment, and thank you for
the invitation for all of us tosupport this campaign, US out of
(36:45):
Korea.
Jamie (36:46):
Thank you so much.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.