October 9, 2024 • 65 mins
What happens when the walls that have held your family stories begin to close in? Elizabeth Clark-Stern, a seasoned counselor and therapist, joins us to unpack the life-altering emotions tied to downsizing. Together, we navigate the complexity of leaving a long-term home, equating it to the grief of losing a loved one. Amidst the conversation, Judy Gratton shines a light with her heartwarming children's book, inspired by her granddaughters and crows, weaving a narrative that echoes the bittersweetness of letting go and cherishing memories.
As the heart wrestles with the head, we explore the balance of emotional attachments and pragmatic decisions. Elizabeth underscores the need for empathetic listeners who validate pain rather than fix it, while we explore how couples therapy can bridge communication gaps. Practical concerns like home maintenance and financial security become central themes, reminding us of the importance of facing realities. A simple pros and cons list emerges as a tool to discern emotional truths from practical necessities, guiding us through the maze of life transitions.
Shifting identities and evolving family dynamics are laid bare as we draw insights from Richard Rohr's "Falling Upward," contemplating how our attachments to material achievements may be challenged during downsizing. The dialogue extends to family tensions, where children and parents may find themselves at odds. Yet, amidst the upheaval, we discover unexpected joy—renewed connections and community bonds that alleviate loneliness. Through stories of senior communities and outreach programs, we celebrate the invigorating power of connection in life's later stages.
As the heart wrestles with the head, we explore the balance of emotional attachments and pragmatic decisions. Elizabeth underscores the need for empathetic listeners who validate pain rather than fix it, while we explore how couples therapy can bridge communication gaps. Practical concerns like home maintenance and financial security become central themes, reminding us of the importance of facing realities. A simple pros and cons list emerges as a tool to discern emotional truths from practical necessities, guiding us through the maze of life transitions.
Shifting identities and evolving family dynamics are laid bare as we draw insights from Richard Rohr's "Falling Upward," contemplating how our attachments to material achievements may be challenged during downsizing. The dialogue extends to family tensions, where children and parents may find themselves at odds. Yet, amidst the upheaval, we discover unexpected joy—renewed connections and community bonds that alleviate loneliness. Through stories of senior communities and outreach programs, we celebrate the invigorating power of connection in life's later stages.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dennis Day (00:00):
Good day everyone.
Welcome to Getting your Edgehow to Right-Size your Home and
Life podcast.
I am Dennis Day and I'm herewith my co-host and newly
published author, judy Gratton.
Good morning, judy.
Judy Gratton (00:14):
Good morning Dennis.
How are you?
Dennis Day (00:16):
I'm doing great.
You have some exciting news.
Judy Gratton (00:20):
I do.
Dennis Day (00:21):
We're gonna share a little something about this here
.
Just let me share, there we go.
Share, there we go.
Judy Gratton (00:30):
Oh my goodness, I wrote a children's book and it
only took me five years to getit done.
I wrote it for a couple ofreasons.
I wanted to write something for, at the time, my granddaughter.
Now I have two, so the otherended up in the book.
As someone else, in Bothell,where I live, there are crows
(00:50):
that come every night thousandsof crows.
If you look them up the crowsof Bothell you'll see lots of
YouTube videos on them.
I decided they needed amatriarch, and Clarice Crowan
kind of a pun on Crone old lady,which I happen to be one of is
the matriarch of the BothellCrow clan.
(01:12):
They don't like being called amurder, so it's a Crow clan.
I'm very excited because I'mthrilled at how many people have
actually bought the book and Iget to go to the Crow Festival
today and read the book.
This is my new book.
You'll find it on Amazon,thanks, Congratulations, thank
(01:35):
you.
Dennis Day (01:36):
As a former librarian, I was thinking I
should have written a book first, but no, didn't do it.
So, anyways, today we're reallyexcited because we have a
special guest.
Her name is ElizabethClark-Stearns.
She is a counselor andtherapist and author from the
(01:57):
North Seattle area.
She's here to discuss a part ofdownsizing, which is our main
subject, that is reallydifficult to comprehend.
This podcast is not just forthose who are thinking about
downsizing, have family who aredownsizing, and how difficult
downsizing can be from thatfamily home that you've been in
(02:21):
years and years and years.
So let's get started, elizabethClark-Stearns.
Just introduce yourself andtell us who in years and years
and years.
So let's get started, elizabethClark-Stern.
Just introduce yourself andtell us who you are and what you
do.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (02:30):
Well, hello, I am attempting to retire
as a psychotherapist.
I've been in private practicefor 25 years.
Prior to that, I did socialwork with children and families
through the foster care system.
You really learn a lot abouthow important place being with
(02:50):
is when you have to remove achild from a home.
If a child has been theparenting child to the parent
and the parent is drug addictedor mentally ill, and then the
child is taken out, they need atransition object.
So we say get them a kitten,get them a dog, get them
(03:10):
something to love.
If any of what I say today makessense to you, the big banner in
it is love transition, becausethat's what happens when you're
moving from one space to anotherspace.
When someone dies, I mean it'sreally the same process.
The loss and the transition toa new way of life takes us all
(03:35):
through the same corridors.
In my private practice I'veworked with individuals, couples
, families, children.
I'm getting a kitten today.
So I recently took all of thelittle figures in my sand tray
box, which I used to use forchildren to act out the story of
their lives, and I put it onthe floor to use it as a cat.
(03:55):
I'm almost 76.
I'll be 76 on Thanksgiving.
I'm healthy so far, but haverecently lost a dear brother.
I understand how fragile andprecious life is.
I've written a book called theLanguage of Water, which is
(04:17):
feminist science fictionpublished by Aqueduct Press on
Amazon, and it's about thefuture and how we don't have
enough water.
But the power of women and thepower of love transcends that.
Judy Gratton (04:28):
I'll be reading.
I am so thrilled that you arehere today.
I've been talking to Dennisabout the need to bring someone
on to talk about the emotionalaspects of downsizing and making
that move for a long time.
I'm really grateful that you'rehere today.
Thank you so much.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (04:45):
You're very welcome.
Dennis Day (04:52):
Let's get into our subjects, Elizabeth.
How does downsizing triggerfeelings of loss and grief,
especially when they've lived ina single home, raised a family
for decades in that home?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (04:59):
One of the basic cornerstones of human
behavior and our orientation tothe world is attachment.
There are tons of books writtenabout attachment theory.
That applies not only toholding your baby when the baby
is born and the baby becomesattached to you.
It also applies to everythingin your surroundings, to
(05:22):
physically being able to walkthrough that same door and
seeing your children andgrandchildren.
I'm choking up because I'mremembering, in the other room,
right outside the kitchen of ourhouse, in pencil on the door,
is all of the stages of growthof our granddaughter, Going all
the way from the time she couldbarely toddle through the door.
(05:44):
Going all the way from the timeshe could barely toddle through
the door, and now she's five,eight towers above us all.
She says I'm the tallest womanin the family, Nana, and so she
is.
And when I think of leaving thishome, the first thing I want to
do is grab a hammer and takethat off the door and take it
with me, because it's so sacredand so precious.
(06:06):
So there are little corners ofevery place in a home that
represent life lived andhopefully life lived joyously,
the idea of pulling up stakes,literally, of donating, giving
away, of donating, giving awayor sending away possessions and
(06:29):
cornerstones of your life reallyis a deep loss.
People experience it the sameway they experience a death of a
loved one.
Some people are more sensitivethan others.
Some people are more pragmaticthan others.
The ones who really are intouch with their feelings get it
.
They know how profound this is.
So that's what I would say.
First of all is that pulling upstakes like that is a deeply
(06:52):
emotional experience for almosteveryone.
Judy Gratton (06:55):
And I can speak from experience of having worked
with multiple people who'vegone through this.
The most difficult thing aboutworking with them is helping
them through that transition.
In some cases it is justincredibly stressful.
I've had one client tell me shesaid I am part of the dirt.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (07:21):
Oh, beautiful.
Judy Gratton (07:23):
Well, it is beautiful, except that it's very
difficult.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (07:26):
You can't take the dirt with you.
Judy Gratton (07:28):
You can't take the dirt with you, but they built
that home back in the 70s andthey've been there ever since.
The transition is just very,very difficult.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (07:41):
Yes.
Judy Gratton (07:42):
What are some of the difficult?
Yes, what are some of thecommon emotional hurdles?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (07:49):
that people should be prepared to
face.
I think one of the main ones isresistance.
That comes up again and againoh, do I really need to do this?
We've got a three-story houseand now I'm in a wheelchair.
Do I really need to do this?
We can put it in an elevator.
People go through.
If you're familiar withElizabeth Kubler-Ross's stages
of grief, the first one isdenial, resistance, and very
(08:15):
often, of course, if it's anaging couple, then one of them
is in one place, the other one'sin another and somehow they
have convinced themselves to getto your office to talk about
selling their home, right.
But I think they can expect alot of tension around that, a
lot of magical thinking, thingslike, oh, we'll put in an
(08:38):
elevator or, you know, we'll putin a fire escape and that has a
ramp on it All kinds of crazythings that people think of in a
desperate effort not to have toleave their home.
Resistance, denial, and thenmaybe anger is another big one.
Why do I have to do thisSo-and-so down the road?
(09:00):
They don't have to do it, andthey're the same age I am and
their kids have come in and nowthey live with their kids.
The kids have come back to homebecause they don't want to sell
the house.
I think you can rationalize italmost any possible way.
Anger I always say anger andgrief.
Judy Gratton (09:18):
Who are they directing this anger at?
Well, often at each other.
Elizabeth Clark-S (09:20):
unfortunately , this anger at Well, often at
each other, unfortunately.
Okay, or it may be at you.
You may get some of this.
Oh, why do I really need to dothis?
Have you experienced that?
Judy Gratton (09:31):
Yes, I have.
I've had people be angry withme and it's not anything I can
control.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (09:42):
No, it has nothing to do with you.
And so that's what I mean aboutthe irrationality of the anger.
It can be addressed at theirkids, maybe, for not stepping up
and buying the home so thatthey could always go back to it.
Look at the housing prices inSeattle, for example.
My kids couldn't afford to buymy house, right?
I mean, it's just not rational.
But we'll do anything not tohave to give up that door jam.
(10:04):
That has all the stages.
You guys can move in here andthen we'll come visit you from
wherever we live in our smallcondo, right?
So anger and then the pointabout anger and grief are two
sides of the same.
They're so close.
The anger often defends againstthis deep grief to leave the
(10:28):
home, to leave the memories.
But it's something that must befaced and often, especially men
, sometimes it's a matter ofpride oh, I don't feel grief
about leaving the home.
It's very practical.
And they'll say to their wifewe have to do this, you know we
have to do this, but they'rejust afraid of their own grief.
They don't want to have to saythis breaks my heart.
(10:52):
So you have to be able to facethe fact that it breaks your
heart, and that's a very hardthing for many people to do.
Judy Gratton (11:01):
Dennis, your father.
How did he react when they lefttheir home?
Did you see any of that in him?
Dennis Day (11:10):
my dad didn't like feelings as much as I would have
preferred him as a father attimes.
My mother, he was the doer, thegoer, and we're just going to
plow through.
This is the practical, thatsort of mentality.
Judy Gratton (11:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Dennis Day (11:27):
So my mom was a little more attached
particularly when they had lived10 years in a really small,
tight knit community and donethe potlucks and all this that
she was going to really miss outon this social life when they
moved.
But my dad was more like no,this has to be done.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (11:46):
Let's get busy.
You know Well that's anothervery important point, dennis is
community.
I mean often it's not just thehouse, especially if the kids
grew up there and you all wentto school functions together and
got to know the neighbors.
Everybody got together, raisedtheir kids together.
We're in and out of eachother's houses.
It's the neighborhood that issuch a loss.
(12:09):
Oh my goodness, that's anothervery big one.
Judy Gratton (12:13):
Where's the local pharmacy, the grocery store?
the cars that you know there,the shortcuts you know how to
take if you're driving thosesorts of things All of those
come into play.
It's funny because when I leftthe first house we owned, we
were in for about five years.
We moved in when my daughterwas two and she's now 39.
We were only in it for likefour or five years, but when I
(12:35):
left I cried.
We were still leaving behindand I was much younger than I am
now.
I think it's definitely moredifficult as you get older, but
it happens for a lot of peoplewho have a home and a community
that they enjoyed.
Even if it's a good thing likemoving into a bigger house, a
(12:56):
better school district stillthere's a loss leaving behind,
absolutely Bringing up the ideaof any age in terms of this
transition.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (13:07):
If you're an older couple and
you're moving because it's justtoo hard to manage in two or
three level house it's too muchspace and it's harder to get
around Maybe you've taken acouple of falls.
The real reason for moving issafety.
Downsizing brings you close notonly to the loss of the home
(13:29):
but your own mortality.
That may be the elephant in theroom that nobody really wants
to talk about If we're80-something and we move into an
apartment independent living.
I have a girlfriend whom I'veknown for 65 years.
We grew up as little kids onthe same block and of course
both live in very differentcities.
(13:51):
Now she lives in Austin and Ilive here.
But she recently gave up herhome of 35 years that where
she'd raised her daughter tomove into this studio apartment.
She couldn't afford more than astudio.
If you look at the cost now ofindependent living places, it is
outrageous.
(14:11):
She had to get rid of almosteverything.
She was a professor, she hadbooks and books, a whole room of
books.
Those all had to go, except fora little bookshelf in where she
lives now.
She's kind of in shock.
She can't drive anymore.
She's losing her memory.
Her kids were frantic about it.
It's absolutely what had to bedone, but it was a big
(14:34):
transition.
Dennis Day (14:36):
So if someone is feeling these depression,
anxiety, anger, grief what aresome techniques or methods to
help people overcome these andget the job done or move on?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (14:55):
I think it's the same as with any kind
of grief counseling.
Talking about it helpsenormously.
Talking with your pastor, atherapist or close friends who
really understand it, who canjust listen, without trying to
problem solve, without trying tosay maybe you can stay there
just two or three more years.
You need to find a listener whoreally gets the depth of the
(15:19):
pain and doesn't try to smoothit over, doesn't try to make you
feel better, but says okay,this is the stage you're in at
this point in your life.
If there's a couple involvedand there's conflict around that
, couples therapy or maritalcounseling with your pastor can
be essential.
(15:39):
You can talk it throughtogether.
In my experience very oftenpeople say things in couples
counseling to each other thatthey've never said before at
home A shock to both of them.
You know I didn't know you feltthat way or what.
You're really angry with meabout that.
You know that comes up a lotand to acknowledge that this
(16:16):
kind of transition requires thatkind of sometimes professional
help fully as much as, say, thedeath of your parents or the
death of a child or somethingthat we think of is, oh, of
course you'd go into a supportgroup.
I don't know that there existssupport groups for people going
into downsizing housing.
Judy Gratton (16:22):
It would be an excellent thing to have,
wouldn't?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (16:24):
it?
Yeah, that would be absolutelywe should start that.
Dennis Day (16:27):
Yeah, we should.
Judy Gratton (16:28):
Because when you talk about the listeners Dennis
can attest to this we spend alot of time doing that.
Oh, you people are liketherapists.
From the standpoint of beingsimilar in age, I can relate.
I tell them I'm going throughthe same thing because we have a
two-story house on a lot that'sway too big and I just don't
(16:52):
want to do all the things thatare required.
One of the things that is sodifficult is that you watch
homes where people cannot takecare of them, refuse to leave
and the homes begin todeteriorate and then, when they
(17:13):
don't have a choice anymore orthey're gone, you're left with
something that is not as muchvalue as it could have been had
it been maintained.
The paint's peeling off thehouse, the yard is so overgrown
you can't see the front door.
It just goes on and on, andit's really not their fault,
other than the fact that theycould have maybe moved earlier
(17:36):
and avoided that.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (17:38):
So you know that's another very
critical point because in a waythat has a life of its own,
mm-hmm.
Very critical point because ina way that has a life of its own
, you could appeal to the personby saying, if this is a living
organism, your home and thepaint on the walls and the roof
that you put in five years ago,you know that doorstop that has
(17:58):
all the stages of growth of yourgrandchild, don't you want to
maintain it and care for it sothat it can be passed on to
another generation?
Judy Gratton (18:09):
And a lot of times , when the decision is finally
made to make the move andthey've seen what their
neighbor's homes have sold for,they have this expectation that
their home is going to be thesame thing, and the problem is
that they need a new roof andthe furnace is 25 years old and
(18:30):
the electrical box is maybe notup to code anymore, and it just
goes on and on, and every one ofthose subtracts value from what
the home could sell for, andthat's really another thing
that's hard for people to wraptheir heads around, because that
money is what they're going tolive on, most likely in the
(18:50):
future.
Elizabeth Clark-Ster (18:51):
Absolutely so.
Dennis Day (18:52):
Yeah, that's our American way is that you at
least for since post-World WarII you buy the home, live in it,
you sell, take the equity andthen that's what you live on in
retirement.
And this has been prettyeffective for a lot of people
(19:12):
because the home values haveskyrocketed so they can leave
with a significant amount ofmoney that they could be in a
retirement community, they couldgo to a smaller place, and
without that equity they'rereally limited on what they can
(19:33):
do, and in my case, my mother's93.
Well, she's run out of thatmoney.
I mean, it can only last solong, right?
So?
And now we're trying to get heron Medicaid so that she has
continues to be able to stay inthe same place.
But if you let your home go,you're reducing the amount of
(19:56):
money you have in thatend-of-life cycle.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (20:02):
Well, and it brings up the whole
practical aspect of all of this,because there's the emotional
attachment and then there's thepragmatics of it.
And you know, years ago, when Iwas trying to make a difficult
decision, someone said, well,just take a, a legal pad and
draw a line down the middle andput pro and con.
(20:22):
Well, in this case you mightput practical and on one side
and, uh, attachment or emotionalor love on the other idea, you
know, so you can list all thesethings you're talking about.
You know we need that.
Judy Gratton (20:36):
Yeah, that was the .
My next question is how?
How do you help peopledifferentiate between their
emotional attachments to thingsand and what's practical, what
you know, what to be done?
No matter what you, you can'tkeep all those books that you
have.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (20:57):
Well, exactly what you just said that
you know on the on the on thereality side would be, for
example, in my friend's caseshe's too distracted to drive,
it's dangerous to drive, shekeeps falling.
She's she wouldn't say this,but she is.
But her short-term memory ishorrible.
So you know she forgets things.
(21:18):
When I visit her I end upsaying, well, you know, you put
that in the freezer.
It really belongs in the stove.
She just can't manage theday-to-day.
And those would actually be onthe practical side.
Yeah, they would be on, let'sface, reality side.
And and the cost?
(21:39):
And, uh, she lives in austin,so she just sold this huge home
for four hundred thousanddollars.
That home in almost anyneighborhood in seattle would go
for over a million.
Yeah, so you know there's.
You have across the country,you have different realities of
pricing and all of that.
And how long is that moneygoing to last?
And then on the other side, youhave all those books, all those
(22:02):
cherished memories, the canopybed that is still in the little
child's room even though herdaughter's in her thirties.
You have all the attachmentthings.
And to be able not to demonizeyour feelings, I think that's so
important, to be able to say itmatters.
It matters to me and it's aboutlove.
(22:23):
It's about the great love thatI had for my daughter that I
still have the canopy bed inthere, because I love going in
there, just look at it and toremember it.
And at the same time, it's aboth.
And you know, which I think isactually really a marker of
aging is to be able to face theparadox of life.
(22:46):
Almost everything as we getolder.
It's not either or it's not.
I'll stay in my home until Idrop dead, or I just, you know,
leave everything and I go, and I, you know, give it all away and
I grieve for the rest of mylife.
Neither one of those are goodalternatives.
The alternative is to face bothend and to say, yes, it's going
(23:07):
to hurt like heck, but I'mgoing to leave it.
And you know, oh, one idea Ihad was to take pictures of
things in the house, and youcould actually even old school
make an album.
All of our pictures are on ourtiny little phones, but even if
they're saved on the iCloud,it's still not the same, I think
(23:29):
, as having an actual photographalbum that would have a picture
of the canopy bed.
This is where she grew up.
This is what I love about thishouse.
Judy Gratton (23:38):
I actually have suggested getting index cards
and putting the photo on thecard and writing your story why
it's important to you, liketaking a picture of that piece
of the door jamb with all theand then writing your story on
the back.
Because, although your familymembers don't want the things
(24:01):
I'm sure the daughter doesn'twant the canopy bed but they
would appreciate what yourthoughts were about that canopy
bed.
So, whether you put it in aDropbox file or in an index box,
in the box you can pick it upand look at it and read your
story and remember theimportance of it, which I've
(24:23):
suggested that to clients.
I've even given clients boxes.
It's easier said than done.
I think it's a good I've beendoing that with things that I've
given away.
I've taken photos of them.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (24:39):
That's brilliant.
Are you sure you don't want tobecome a therapist?
Judy Gratton (24:45):
I think we might be a little bit here.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (24:49):
You know , once years ago I had a client
who was a hairstylist and shewould talk about when I get
people in my chair, and thenthey would tell her their whole
life stories.
Well, how is that so different?
Oh, in fact I have a friend whowas a psychologist for a while
and he said no, I think I can dobetter help for people by
(25:11):
selling them houses, and becamea real estate agent and loved
his work because I think they'reso similar.
Judy Gratton (25:19):
It's such an emotion.
It doesn't matter how old theyare, it's every day in real
estate's a new day.
You don't know what you'regoing to be coming up against,
but the emotions that can evolve.
Commercial real estate is adifferent beast.
I don't do it.
It's all analytical, and atleast that's been my experience.
(25:39):
So residential is veryemotional.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (25:44):
Yeah, of course.
No, that's a wonderful idea,anything that you know.
They talk about how a teddybear for a child is a
transitional object.
Right that a child atransitional object, right that
a child, say, who's in adivorced home, goes back and
forth.
My daughter had a Big Bird dollthat she grabbed onto the neck
of that thing and the neck gotso thin you could barely the
(26:06):
threads, you know.
But she would take Big Birdwith her back and forth.
Well, this is the same concept.
They're back and forth.
Well, this is the same concept.
Whatever Like, for example, ifyou had a big yard and you had
beautiful plants in the yard,well, you know, even if you move
into a condominium that has not, doesn't even have a deck, you
can have a windowsill where youcan plant something that reminds
(26:27):
you of home.
Bring the rose with you, even ifit's miniature roses that you
get at the QFC, you know, butthey're the same color and when
you water them and smell them,you can go.
This is I'm still home, you knowand on a profound level, one of
the things that this can caninspire in people going through
(26:50):
this kind of a loss.
It's the same as going throughany death.
It kind of brings you to thedark night of the soul in
yourself, yes, but it can helpyou if you, if you use it in the
right way and you can journalabout it, as you say, write
stories about it, write yourfeelings, do art about it.
(27:10):
It can bring you to a placewhere you realize that home is
deep inside of you and that, ina way, everything in the
environment around you was aprojection of that love, that
attention, but that even indeath, you take it with you,
that home is a part of you, sothat the transition into a
(27:34):
smaller space is not really thatsignificant.
If you can get to the placewhere you say, okay, it's there
within me and will always bewithin me, and whether you want
to call it divine love or CarlJung would call it the self with
a capital S, it's who you aredeep inside and helping to
(27:55):
transition like this and to letgo.
Anytime you let go of things inyour external life, whether
it's a loved one who died or abeautiful home that you tended
and cared for all those years,the act of letting go brings you
to what you will never let goof which is your own deep self.
Judy Gratton (28:17):
I like that, I really like that idea.
Dennis Day (28:19):
Well, we're getting deep into emotions here.
How can the downsizing impact aperson's identity, especially
if they associate the home tofamily stability, history and a
sense of self?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (28:36):
Well, that's a great question and a
good follow through to what Ijust said, because that's about
the death of the ego, and we allhave one and we all need one to
survive in the world, to thrive, to say here I am, I'm
Elizabeth Clark Stern and I'vedone all this stuff and I've
made all this money and I'vepublished this book.
(28:57):
But in the end, again, it's apart of saying what is my
identity?
Who am I really?
Am I the person who has createdall these things and done all
these things?
Yes, that's good, that's goodand I can be proud of that.
Can I move to a new place in mylife where I can let go of the
(29:17):
need to identify with who I am,what I look like, what I've done
, and instead identify with thegreat, deep love that I have to
connect, to attach, to give, tobe with?
And this is a very, verydifficult transition and one of
(29:41):
the books that I think would bemarvelous for people to read.
It's not specifically abouttransitioning from one home to
another.
It called falling upward byrichard roar and it's about I
think the subtitle is somethinglike uh, finding a new dimension
to yourself in the second stageof life.
(30:02):
I like that.
Yeah, yeah, and he's one.
He's on youtube.
If you want to go on youtubeand just search richard roar,
he's all over the place, he'show do you?
spell roar r-H-R.
Okay, richard, and he's aFranciscan friar, but he's the
most unorthodox Franciscan friarI've ever run into.
(30:24):
He talks about sex and he talksabout all the dimensions of
life, the grittiness of life,with great humor, and he looks
like Santa Claus.
I mean, he's just thismarvelous guy.
But Falling Upward is about.
You know, when you begin tofall from the identity that you
have forged all your life, thesuccess, the living in the fancy
(30:47):
neighborhood, the nice car, allof these monikers of identity
that late in life, just don't,it doesn't hold.
It doesn't hold psychologically, because either you have to
move or you just begin tointuitively look around you and
say is this really me?
(31:10):
Do I need all this?
And it doesn't mean that makingmoney is bad, it doesn't mean
that living in a beautiful homeor a rich home is bad at all.
You take all that with you, butyou begin to transition into a
place where identity is based onconnection, relationship, the
(31:31):
moment, the moment of your life,now.
Now, precisely because youdon't have that many years left
you know, if you're looking at76, I certainly.
I mean, maybe I have anotherdecade, who knows, another year,
who knows.
But it brings into focus thevery preciousness of your
(31:51):
experience of life and your ownjourney away from an identity
that's based on anythingexterior that's very.
Judy Gratton (32:01):
I had never thought of that before like that
.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (32:04):
That is incredibly um deep I gotta tell
you guys, it's also so freeing.
Judy Gratton (32:12):
Well, I don't think people, you know, it's
been my experience that it'slike if I don't have this thing,
this cup, this, whatever it is,you know I'm going to be lost.
They're not.
Most people don't spend theirlifetime looking inside and
they're looking outside, and sothat transition from one to the
(32:35):
other I think has got to be, um,if you haven't done it, it's
got to be kind of difficult.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (32:42):
So it's very difficult, but if you can
and uh, it's like.
It's like people who havenightmares, for example.
I do a lot of work with dreamsbecause dreams are an incredible
landscape for understandingwhere you are in life and
sometimes the most horriblenightmares are about psyche,
(33:04):
your spirit, your dream makershaking you and saying wake up.
Wake up, you know.
If there's a wolf coming in thedoor, what is it in your life?
You need to turn and face andconfront and in my experience,
people dream about houses a lot.
Judy Gratton (33:20):
They do.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (33:21):
I do.
Judy Gratton (33:22):
But I always tack that one up because that's what
I do for a living.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (33:26):
Well, maybe I mean dreams you know
exist on so many levels.
But I dream of my grandmother'shouse I dream of in dreams,
dreams.
The house symbolizes yourself.
That is you, your house.
So if you dream of yourgrandmother's house, I think
it's that that's where my senseof myself was born when I was a
(33:47):
little girl.
Somehow I attach it tograndma's house even more than
the house I grew up in with myfamily, just because she was so
loving and it was so differentand it was so strange and
wonderful.
But dreaming about houses,especially if you have to leave
one, can be another way that youcan say wow, what love lived
(34:11):
here.
How do I take this love thatwas in every corner of this
house and put it inside of me sothat I take it not only to the
new house, the downsized house,but take it out in the world,
take it to my children, mygrandchildren.
The plants that I plant and puton the windowsill, those are
(34:32):
the questions.
I think that could be.
That I plant and put on thewindowsill, those are the
questions.
Judy Gratton (34:36):
I think that could be transformative for people.
Now, speaking of children, oneof the major conflicts that we
run into when people aredownsizing is many of their
children.
Either they want to be totallyinvolved and tell their parents
how they're going to do things,or they don't want to be
involved at all, or they'refrustrated with their parents
(34:58):
because they won't let things goand it comes across.
It causes tension and anxietyand, oftentimes, conflict.
What would you say to thechildren?
What would you say to thebrother or the sister or anyone
who's trying to assist someonein this transition, because I
(35:19):
know they don't think about it.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (35:22):
Well, that's a tough one, that is very
tough, and I'm just dealingwith this the other day with
someone.
I think part of it is to startwith the parents actually,
because often all this tensiongets escalated because the
(35:43):
parents give the kids too muchpower over their emotional lives
.
And if one child says, mom,you've got to move right away
and I've got to take over yourfinances, and the other one says
, well, I don't want anything todo with it, I think you should
just stay where you are, blah,blah, blah, and they're fighting
In a way.
It's kind of back to youridentity question, dennis.
(36:06):
It's as an aging person.
Do you own your own value?
And say, okay, this is veryhard for me, I'm very attached
to the house, I don't want, Idon't think you need to take
over the finances.
If I need somebody to help mewith finances, charles Schwab,
thank you very much.
You know, it's the parent beingable to not be railroaded by
(36:27):
their kids and to not put upwith that kind of conflict.
And if the kids are going to bein conflict, you'd say to the
kids well, go away.
You guys figure this out and Isee that more often than you'd
think that there's a oh no, yousee it all the time.
Judy Gratton (36:47):
I had a very dear friend and her and she.
She had been raised duringWorld War II.
She was a hoarder and my firstexperience with her is she had
asked me to help her clean out aroom.
At the end of cleaning out theroom she was so mad at me
because I would pick up like apiece of ribbon this big and go
(37:10):
to throw it away and she wouldsay I can use that.
When I left.
I'm like I will never do thatagain.
You know it's she.
I have no idea, I didn't.
I know when she passed her kidsjust went in and threw
everything into dumpstersRightfully so.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (37:27):
Yeah.
Judy Gratton (37:29):
Oh how sad.
The house was bad but but thatthey had a lot of anger at her
because they wanted to come inand clean it up and she did not
want them to come in and cleanit up.
I don't know what she thoughtwould happen if I came in and
helped her with one room, but itwas.
Ooh, the tension around that isterrible.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (37:50):
Well, and hoarding is a mental illness
.
Yes, that is terrible.
Well, and hoarding is a mentalillness.
I mean, it's something that, asyou say, goes back to the
anxiety and the loss in WorldWar II.
So I need to hold on toeverything.
And when I worked in the fostercare system, kids would put old
pizza crust under their bed,they would hoard food in fear of
starvation if they had beenlocked in a room or something
(38:12):
you know.
So there's no way that childrenor, you know, god forbid, a
real estate agent can intervenewith that kind of incredible
anxiety and acting out ofanxiety.
If you're talking just to thechildren because that was your
(38:44):
question again, I would stressthat you need to say to them
well, in the end this is yourfolks' decision and I understand
your anxiety, but your conflictis making it worse.
You two have got to either worktogether or just let one of them
take over and the other one goto Madagascar or whatever, get
out of the picture.
Judy Gratton (38:54):
And I think that I would love to make them aware,
because they're in a period oftheir life where they're not
doing this and they don't seehow this changed.
Like you said, it's aboutmortality too.
You're getting to a place wherethe things to look forward to
(39:17):
are a little bit spooky.
They're not.
You know, I'm going off tocollege, I'm getting my first
house, I'm getting married, I'mhaving children, and then
suddenly it's like, oh, now what?
And they don't see that, and Ithink I would love to.
If anyone is listening to thisbecause of their family
(39:38):
downsizing.
Please take it intoconsideration that it's really
important to be supportive, andI had someone tell me a long
time ago that when someone, ifthey're picking up the cup,
they'll start telling you thestory around the cup.
Let them tell you the story.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (39:57):
Oh yes.
Judy Gratton (39:58):
And then it's easier for them to pack it or
give it away.
Transition it's much moreimportant to I think, give the
(40:22):
people the grace to work throughthose items, absolutely
Whatever it is yeah.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (40:26):
Yeah, that's back to the attachment.
You know how significant andhow strong that attachment is to
the cup.
Yes, to whatever it is tools.
I've done this a lot dad'shammer and I'm not giving up
dad's hammer, not giving it up,yeah so it is just that, that
(40:48):
simple so it's that simple andit's that deep and it's that
complex and it's that hard, butthe kids are.
Dennis Day (40:57):
the kids are coming from a different place.
They don't know what the thisfeeling is, because they've
never experienced that feelingof their 80 year old mother.
They have their own agenda.
I've got to get her into a safeplace.
I got to get her into a placeshe can afford, and I'm this
house is crumbling, we got and.
I'm busy and I got to get herinto a place she can afford.
This house is crumbling and I'mbusy and I got to get this done
(41:17):
fast and I was guilty of that.
I just did not understand thefeelings of attachment my mom
had, the certain things likewhere's this coming from?
Well, now we know.
And if you're 40 and you have abusy life with kids, et cetera,
you can't understand somebodywho is feeling the grief and
(41:38):
loss of that move.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (41:41):
Right.
Dennis Day (41:41):
Because you haven't experienced it.
Elizabeth Clark-Ster (41:43):
Absolutely , and there's no real way to
open their eyes to that either.
I mean, I think it's importantto parents at some point to just
set limits on it and say lookguys, don't do this.
And I'm not going to explain itto you one more time.
Judy Gratton (41:59):
And that takes communication and I think when
you hit that conflict and anger,the communication goes out the
window.
Absolutely each other and andit and sometimes it takes
strength on the part of theparent to step and say that from
people who didn't have thatstrength to begin with, it's,
(42:20):
it's difficult, it's really.
This is such an emotional issue.
I am that's why I said I'm sograteful that you're here.
Dennis has a story I don't knowif he ever told you it's one of
my favorites.
This story I don't know if heever told you it's one of my
favorites about his mom's pieplate.
Oh no, no, can you go with thatagain?
For us.
Dennis Day (42:39):
Sure, we were moving her from independent living to
assisted living.
You can't have a stove inassisted living.
You can have a microwave butyou can't have a stove or oven
for safety.
Apparently it's a rule.
She was holding onto these piepans.
They were $12 pie pans, glassthat you could get at.
(43:04):
Fred Meyer, who said it was sohard, Didn't understand it.
I do now I totally, totally getit that this was not just
giving up a couple of glass piepans.
It was giving up the lemonmeringue pie she made for my
father at his birthday.
Or the pie, the strawberryrhubarb pie that came after
(43:30):
picking strawberries out in thefield, or the Christmas pumpkin
pie.
She was giving all that up andshe hadn't done any pie for
years and years and years.
But it didn't matter.
It was tough and it was hard tounderstand because I was not in
her place and I think that is aperfect example of what we're
(43:54):
talking about here.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (43:55):
Did you let her take the pie pans with
her?
I didn't.
Judy Gratton (44:00):
Such a bad son?
No, you're not a bad son.
Dennis Day (44:04):
She did give them up .
Yeah, it was, I made thingslike well, okay, mom, you can
come over to my house and makepie or something.
But you know, I'm sorry, Idon't know if I was just mean or
ultimate, but I just think youcan't take them.
(44:26):
You can't.
You don't have room.
She's going from.
You know, 600 square feet, twobedroom place to under 300.
And they're just she won't beable to use them.
So I feel bad about that time.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (44:43):
I'm impressed with how much you've
grown and that you now say now Iget it, now I understand.
And here's an example.
I was talking about my friendwho recently moved, who had the
daughter with the canopy bed.
Well, she took a baby dish thatwas you know what her daughter
ate out of, and she brought itto the new place but she put
(45:03):
dirt in it and plantednasturtiums and put it in the
windowsill sill.
So if there's a way that thepie pans, for example, could
have been repurposed, and youknow dirt from the old house put
into it, you sprinkle it withlittle seeds or something.
That's a way that can have amagical, you know almost
(45:25):
alchemical, transitional aspectto what you're doing.
Dennis Day (45:30):
Well, is there a way to help adult children who have
an agenda or busy, who don'thave the emotional feelings to
help them understand what theirparent is going through?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (45:43):
Well, I would recommend family
counseling.
Okay, I would say, look, youguys don't get it and you know
I'm a real estate agent and youneed professional guidance.
Judy Gratton (45:55):
I'm not sure I'd say that I don't know, elizabeth
, we'll get that job if we tellthem they need professional help
.
Dennis Day (46:02):
Find somebody else.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (46:05):
Well, seriously, you know, because I
mean you can try to give themthe pie pan story I think that's
a great example of trying tohelp them understand how
profound this is for theirparents and how their resistance
and their practicality I meanshow them the two.
(46:26):
Okay, here's all the practicalstuff and here's what mom is
going through.
Here's all the practical stuffand here's what mom is going
through.
She's going through grief andloss and anger and bargaining
and you know all of theKubler-Ross stages of grief.
That's where mom is.
(46:46):
I mean you can really help byor a family counselor, someone
who can help you really see itfrom your parents' point of view
and how understanding that willmake it easier for everybody,
because nobody needs all thisconflict.
Judy Gratton (47:00):
I think the kids begin to look at the parents as
fragile as children and thatthey have to take care of.
Dennis Day (47:11):
And.
Judy Gratton (47:13):
I mean I.
At one point my daughterstarted referring to my husband
and I as her little parents.
I can show you how little I amhere and just any.
Don't do that, you know, and itand so I.
I see that a lot betweenparents and children, especially
(47:34):
as parents get older.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (47:36):
And they're not wrong.
I mean, that's the thing.
The kids are not wrong to lookat the parents.
And we are getting more fragileas we get older and we do have
falls and we do have lapses ofmemory and we do screw up on the
technology because we've neverunderstood it in the first place
.
But I think again, justencouraging empathy and I don't
(48:02):
know, that it would help to sayyou're going to be there one day
.
God willing, you'll live to be80 and you'll experience what
this is like, that probablywouldn't help.
No, because they won't get ituntil they're rich.
What you guys have to deal withis the reality of how hard all
this is.
It all falls to you to try toenlighten people.
Dennis Day (48:27):
Well, we've talked a lot about this in previous
shows that that planning ahead,having the if you're a senior,
talking with your family aboutwhat you want before it has to
happen.
In my case, and so many cases,all this happens at a crisis
point, when mom falls and has tomove or the house is so bad
(48:53):
they can't get around Instead ofreacting that you have a plan
and then the person who has tomove has some sense of control.
Tough to do, I mean, because Idon't know, maybe it's American,
maybe it's just human nature.
We don't plan ahead as much.
(49:15):
We're not proactive, we'rereactive.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (49:19):
Well, I think that's very critical, very
important point.
My husband's brother, who'sonly three years older than him,
died a few months ago justsuddenly, just had a heart
attack and went, and my kidswere so jolted by it.
They both texted and said youguys have to give us a real.
I mean, we have a big folder ofall of the legal stuff and
(49:43):
we've done all that.
They said no, no, no.
You've got to tell us exactlywhat you want, where you want
the ashes.
Do you want us to?
You know, compost you or do youwant real specific?
Because it frightened them thefact that he could go so quickly
.
One of us could go so quickly,so we did.
We said look, we want a parkbench and above the bluff at
(50:04):
richmond beach and at nightsecretly mix our ashes together
and put them in the bushes there.
Dennis Day (50:12):
Good for them, though.
I mean, that's really a healthyway to live your life.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (50:19):
Yeah, to look ahead Absolutely.
Dennis Day (50:28):
Are there any therapeutic approaches and
techniques that you can helpclients process their feelings
of loss while preparing thememotionally for a new home?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (50:36):
Oh boy, oh, it's so wonderful that you
ended that sentence with newhome, because I think part of it
is understanding that this newhome is something you can imbue
with new vision, new dreams,color the more detail that they
(50:57):
take in.
Okay, that was that way in theold house, but you know, I
didn't really like the way thewindow shades were in the back
bedroom, so the details of how Iwill make this so special for
myself and my husband say it'sthe couple.
You know, really almost likeyou're decorating a doll's house
(51:19):
and a child.
You know, uh, opening up yourimagination, seeing the positive
aspects of the fact that youwon't have to climb the stairs
to do the laundry or whatever itis, emphasizing those kinds of
positive aspects and, at thesame time, talking about writing
(51:40):
a journal, maybe what you'retalking about with the stories,
writing stories, taking pictures, thinking about what do I want
to remember about the house andhow can I preserve that in a way
that is small and fits in thenew house and is all about.
You see the Richard Rohr bookthat I was talking about.
(52:01):
The most wonderful thing aboutit is that he says in the second
half of life you really arefree of the things you talked
about, dennis, about when you'rein your 40s and you're working
two jobs and you're raising kids, and often women are working
two jobs and raising kids.
You know, gone are the days ofthe 1950s, they're all.
(52:24):
Life is so stressful now.
Well, what if you can let thatgo, and even let go the idea of
having to maintain the lawnwhere your house you know, your
beautiful house was.
Focus on the fact that this isgoing to be a transition into a
free and enjoyable time of mylife.
And how do I consciously invitethat and create that?
(52:47):
And take that art class that Inever had the time to take?
And, you know, if you miss yourneighborhood friends, you know,
invite them to join a yogaclass with you.
So you see them once a week,you know.
But just be very intentionalabout how you can bring value
and love and joy into your life.
Dennis Day (53:08):
Have you ever dealt with clients that have kind of
resisted or felt the loss andgrief of downsizing and then
suddenly found out that the nextplace was really positive?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (53:24):
Yes, yes , yeah.
Even my friend that I talkedabout, who downsized from her
big house, is kind of in shock.
The upside of it is, I hear hersaying, oh, but then I went to
this, this event that they had,and now they have exercise
classes every morning and Idon't have to cook ever because
(53:45):
they have meals.
I mean, in spite of the factthat she's still kind of going
through the transition I've seen, I finally said to her you seem
more alive to me than I haveseen you in a long time, when
(54:08):
you were back in your house,your big house, alone with your
dog, miserable and not havingthe energy to get out and go to
the senior center.
Well, now you live in a seniorcenter.
You can't avoid it.
You have all this wonderfulopportunity for interaction.
So, yes, that's one example.
She's a friend, not a client,but I've seen it, especially
with the death of a spouse.
If a spouse dies and then saythe wife has now got to downsize
(54:33):
, needs the resourcesfinancially.
There's also a joy in that, ajoy in joining with a community.
I knew someone who moved to aplace called Sungaya.
I know Sungaya, you knowSungaya.
Judy Gratton (54:50):
I have a friend who lives in Sungaya.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (54:52):
Oh well, talk about it and listen to
people about it.
Judy Gratton (54:56):
Yeah, it's a great place.
I mean, they have very limitedhousing there, so it's hard to
get in.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (55:03):
Well it is, but the person I know who
moved into Sungaya is an what dothey call it?
A not intentional community.
There's a word co-housing.
Is that it?
Judy Gratton (55:14):
Yeah, but I believe it is an intentional
community too.
Yeah, I've watched that placedevelop for decades.
Now they do.
That's a very interesting place.
It's in Bothell.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (55:27):
Well, and the person I know again is
in a studio apartment.
Her bed is in her quote livingroom.
Person I know again is in astudio apartment.
Her bed is in her quote livingroom.
She has a little kitchen.
Judy Gratton (55:35):
I might know the same person.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (55:37):
That's very possible.
But in Sangai they have afabulous garden, they grow a lot
of their own food, they have apizza oven oh yes, they've got a
kiln for yeah, they've got allkinds of things.
Judy Gratton (55:48):
Oh yeah, they've got all kinds of things.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (55:50):
Oh yeah, and they have.
As I understand it, they hostlocal political candidates, have
all kinds of fundraisers andjoin and bring the community in,
and again that person is notlonely anymore, ever.
Dennis Day (56:08):
So yes, dennis, I've seen many positive outcomes so,
so yes, dennis, I've seen manypositive outcomes.
So is living as a widow, oreven as a couple you know, not
not speaking to each other,because you've said everything
it is loneliness a real severeproblem right now.
Oh, it's an epidemic.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (56:27):
I think it's absolutely an epidemic, um,
and I think there are all thesearticles, new York Times and
all these other places andstatistics and a terrible
problem.
Judy Gratton (56:38):
COVID did not help that.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (56:40):
Oh, the pandemic, oh my goodness, that
was, yeah, that made it all muchmore obvious and much worse.
And technology has not helpedat all, absolutely, absolutely,
even though I think one of thegood things about the pandemic
was Zoom.
Dennis Day (56:58):
We are.
Judy Gratton (56:59):
And I do a group.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (57:02):
Another thing I would highly recommend I
facilitate a group at St Mark's, which is an Episcopal
cathedral downtown in CapitolHill in Seattle, and we have a
group called the Third Actors,meaning we're in the third act
of our lives and we havein-person potlucks, but we also
(57:26):
meet on Zoom every month and Ithink there's 60 members on the
on the zoom call and third act.
We all talk about aging andit's it's a support group.
It's uh ways for people tobring up all their fears and
anxieties.
All of them are talking aboutthis, and the widows especially,
(57:47):
or the widowers.
There's some men who are justextraordinarily lonely, but they
meet at the potlucks, they talk.
I'm hoping secretly thatthere'll be some romances that
bloom out of this.
Dennis Day (58:02):
Is this a new?
Judy Gratton (58:02):
group, or do they have to be members of St Mark's?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (58:06):
Well, I think I don't think they have to
be members, and I know oneperson who's a member of a
different church.
Judy Gratton (58:13):
How would they find information on this?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (58:16):
Just go on the St Mark's website, okay,
or they could email me atecstern at yahoocom, because I'm
a facilitator.
Judy Gratton (58:26):
Okay.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (58:27):
And I'll put them on the email list and
invite them in.
Judy Gratton (58:32):
Okay, very good.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (58:34):
But I would hope there are groups like
this in community centers, inlocal churches.
I haven't done an extensivesearch of it, but community,
community, community, I think,is so much about what's
important and giving back in theway that you can.
I mean one of the things Irecently did that I stumbled
(58:56):
onto that I thought I wouldnever do something like this,
but in retirement, having only afew clients left, um, I joined
a group through saint marksalthough it's not directly
attached to St Mark's calledOperation Night Watch, and a
priest and a strapping young manand I the three of us go out in
(59:19):
the evenings up and down thestreet on Broadway and we have
bags of water and we talk to thehomeless, the people who have
chosen to leave their lights onthe street.
Most of them are drug addictedor mentally ill or both.
And I was so nervous I thought,oh, this is not something I
(59:41):
should be doing and my kidswould be freaked out if they
knew it.
And I said but I got to tellyou, the first gentleman that I
walked up to was sitting on abench and he was kind of
twitching.
And then he looked in my eyesand he said oh, who are you.
You're new out here and I said,hi, my name is Elizabeth,
what's your name?
And we shook hands and it wasso moving and I may never see
(01:00:05):
him again.
But I gave him water and socksand treats and uh, and he so
grateful and any way that youcan connect to the world like
that.
I mean a lot of people like towork with children.
They go to children's hospitaland hold babies these are all
things that counteractloneliness.
(01:00:26):
And you meet other people.
I mean, I've met a lot ofmarvelous people who go out on
the streets with me and we allreally love it and it's strange,
I guess, to really love doingsomething like that.
Judy Gratton (01:00:38):
But uh, but there are many opportunities out there
it's connection, it's it'scommunication, it's all of those
things that you're lackingright now.
Dennis Day (01:00:50):
So what's in your future, Elizabeth, your book
author?
Are there more books orretirement to, or something like
that?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (01:01:02):
I'm in what I call divine flow, if you
will.
I have been blessed with frommy life as a Jungian therapist
and most recently from the workI've done at St Mark's.
I just feel a presence ofdivine love and I feel it
flowing through me and throughall the people around me,
(01:01:23):
whether it's the schizophrenicon the streets or singing in the
choir.
I'm singing in the choir and Ijust want to follow that flow
and trust that it will lead meto give and to receive and to be
a part.
And yes, I've got another bookthat I've finished and I don't
know if the publisher is goingto like it or not.
(01:01:44):
It's about artificialintelligence and humanity, but
we'll see and wrote another playand a group of us we call
ourselves the Shrink Raptorsbecause we're all therapists who
had a life in the arts beforewe became therapists.
(01:02:05):
So we really enjoy doing playstogether.
So whatever comes in thisafternoon, I'm adopting a kitty.
Judy Gratton (01:02:13):
Oh, good for you.
That's wonderful.
Well, I thank you so much.
This, I think, is probably myvery favorite podcast we've done
in two years.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (01:02:23):
Well, thank you, it was so great to
meet you and, dennis, so good tosee you again.
Dennis Day (01:02:27):
Yeah.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (01:02:28):
Very well.
Oh well, there's some of mybooks I forgot there have a few
there yeah, the uh.
The play out of the shadows isabout the?
Uh, the mistress and the wifeof carl jung and their
relationship.
And recently I just got uhcontacted by a woman in London,
(01:02:49):
a filmmaker, who wants to make afilm of it, and I gave her my
blessing.
I said, okay, great, write thescreenplay.
And I guess one of my favoritesdown at the bottom is Timeless
Night, which is a play aboutEdith Stein and Viktor Frankl,
who were both in Auschwitztogether.
(01:03:10):
And Viktor Frankl wrote Man'sSearch for Meaning.
He's an incredible psychiatristwho survived the Holocaust and
went on to create a whole schoolof psychiatry based on how you
can survive in a place likeAuschwitz by saying my soul is
my own, the Nazis can takeeverything from me, but not my
(01:03:33):
soul.
And Edith Stein was anincredibly brilliant philosopher
who had a conversion and becamea Carmelite nun.
Judy Gratton (01:03:42):
Oh my.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (01:03:43):
And she wrote an open letter criticizing
the Pope for his collusion indeporting Jews from Italy, and
for that the Gestapo came andtook her from the convent and
put her in Auschwitz.
So this play is an imaginednight when the two of them were
thrown into this old shedtogether for various
(01:04:05):
misbehaviors and met each otherand talked and knew each other
and kind of fell in love towardthe.
So anyway, thank you, Thank youfor showing those books.
Dennis Day (01:04:16):
You've been busy.
Judy Gratton (01:04:18):
I've got my little children's book.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (01:04:23):
Well, thank you both.
This was just delightful.
Judy Gratton (01:04:26):
Oh, thank you, Thank you.
Dennis Day (01:04:28):
Thank you, elizabeth , it's been awesome.
This is a topic that we'vereally wanted to dive deep into,
and you know it's really hardto find a therapist.
I'm so grateful that you tookthe time to be with us, and I
really hope all your journeysare positive, filled with joy.
I'm so excited that your lifejust sounds full of abundance,
(01:04:52):
and I appreciate that all thehelp that you gave me in the
past.
So I'm going to say goodbye.
See you next time.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (01:05:03):
Thank you so much, dennis.
Thank you so much, judy, sogood to meet you.
Judy Gratton (01:05:07):
It's a pleasure to meet you.
Dennis Day (01:05:09):
For watching or listening to Getting your Edge
Out how to Right Size your Homeand Life podcast.
We have many episodes audio andon our YouTube channel, getting
your Edge.
We would love to hear from youComment, like, subscribe, all
those things Plus, if you reallywant help with your housing
situation.
(01:05:30):
We always, always communicateand help people for free.
Okay, we consultations are free, so we'd love to hear from you
at edgegroupteamcom.
Just drop us a line.
Thank you so much.
See you next time, bye-bye.
Good day everyone.
Welcome to Getting your Edgehow to Right-Size your Home and
Life podcast.
I am Dennis Day and I'm herewith my co-host and newly
published author, judy Gratton.
Good morning, judy.
Judy Gratton (00:14):
Good morning Dennis.
How are you?
Dennis Day (00:16):
I'm doing great.
You have some exciting news.
Judy Gratton (00:20):
I do.
Dennis Day (00:21):
We're gonna share a little something about this here
.
Just let me share, there we go.
Share, there we go.
Judy Gratton (00:30):
Oh my goodness, I wrote a children's book and it
only took me five years to getit done.
I wrote it for a couple ofreasons.
I wanted to write something for, at the time, my granddaughter.
Now I have two, so the otherended up in the book.
As someone else, in Bothell,where I live, there are crows
(00:50):
that come every night thousandsof crows.
If you look them up the crowsof Bothell you'll see lots of
YouTube videos on them.
I decided they needed amatriarch, and Clarice Crowan
kind of a pun on Crone old lady,which I happen to be one of is
the matriarch of the BothellCrow clan.
(01:12):
They don't like being called amurder, so it's a Crow clan.
I'm very excited because I'mthrilled at how many people have
actually bought the book and Iget to go to the Crow Festival
today and read the book.
This is my new book.
You'll find it on Amazon,thanks, Congratulations, thank
(01:35):
you.
Dennis Day (01:36):
As a former librarian, I was thinking I
should have written a book first, but no, didn't do it.
So, anyways, today we're reallyexcited because we have a
special guest.
Her name is ElizabethClark-Stearns.
She is a counselor andtherapist and author from the
(01:57):
North Seattle area.
She's here to discuss a part ofdownsizing, which is our main
subject, that is reallydifficult to comprehend.
This podcast is not just forthose who are thinking about
downsizing, have family who aredownsizing, and how difficult
downsizing can be from thatfamily home that you've been in
(02:21):
years and years and years.
So let's get started, elizabethClark-Stearns.
Just introduce yourself andtell us who in years and years
and years.
So let's get started, elizabethClark-Stern.
Just introduce yourself andtell us who you are and what you
do.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (02:30):
Well, hello, I am attempting to retire
as a psychotherapist.
I've been in private practicefor 25 years.
Prior to that, I did socialwork with children and families
through the foster care system.
You really learn a lot abouthow important place being with
(02:50):
is when you have to remove achild from a home.
If a child has been theparenting child to the parent
and the parent is drug addictedor mentally ill, and then the
child is taken out, they need atransition object.
So we say get them a kitten,get them a dog, get them
(03:10):
something to love.
If any of what I say today makessense to you, the big banner in
it is love transition, becausethat's what happens when you're
moving from one space to anotherspace.
When someone dies, I mean it'sreally the same process.
The loss and the transition toa new way of life takes us all
(03:35):
through the same corridors.
In my private practice I'veworked with individuals, couples
, families, children.
I'm getting a kitten today.
So I recently took all of thelittle figures in my sand tray
box, which I used to use forchildren to act out the story of
their lives, and I put it onthe floor to use it as a cat.
(03:55):
I'm almost 76.
I'll be 76 on Thanksgiving.
I'm healthy so far, but haverecently lost a dear brother.
I understand how fragile andprecious life is.
I've written a book called theLanguage of Water, which is
(04:17):
feminist science fictionpublished by Aqueduct Press on
Amazon, and it's about thefuture and how we don't have
enough water.
But the power of women and thepower of love transcends that.
Judy Gratton (04:28):
I'll be reading.
I am so thrilled that you arehere today.
I've been talking to Dennisabout the need to bring someone
on to talk about the emotionalaspects of downsizing and making
that move for a long time.
I'm really grateful that you'rehere today.
Thank you so much.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (04:45):
You're very welcome.
Dennis Day (04:52):
Let's get into our subjects, Elizabeth.
How does downsizing triggerfeelings of loss and grief,
especially when they've lived ina single home, raised a family
for decades in that home?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (04:59):
One of the basic cornerstones of human
behavior and our orientation tothe world is attachment.
There are tons of books writtenabout attachment theory.
That applies not only toholding your baby when the baby
is born and the baby becomesattached to you.
It also applies to everythingin your surroundings, to
(05:22):
physically being able to walkthrough that same door and
seeing your children andgrandchildren.
I'm choking up because I'mremembering, in the other room,
right outside the kitchen of ourhouse, in pencil on the door,
is all of the stages of growthof our granddaughter, Going all
the way from the time she couldbarely toddle through the door.
(05:44):
Going all the way from the timeshe could barely toddle through
the door, and now she's five,eight towers above us all.
She says I'm the tallest womanin the family, Nana, and so she
is.
And when I think of leaving thishome, the first thing I want to
do is grab a hammer and takethat off the door and take it
with me, because it's so sacredand so precious.
(06:06):
So there are little corners ofevery place in a home that
represent life lived andhopefully life lived joyously,
the idea of pulling up stakes,literally, of donating, giving
away, of donating, giving awayor sending away possessions and
(06:29):
cornerstones of your life reallyis a deep loss.
People experience it the sameway they experience a death of a
loved one.
Some people are more sensitivethan others.
Some people are more pragmaticthan others.
The ones who really are intouch with their feelings get it
.
They know how profound this is.
So that's what I would say.
First of all is that pulling upstakes like that is a deeply
(06:52):
emotional experience for almosteveryone.
Judy Gratton (06:55):
And I can speak from experience of having worked
with multiple people who'vegone through this.
The most difficult thing aboutworking with them is helping
them through that transition.
In some cases it is justincredibly stressful.
I've had one client tell me shesaid I am part of the dirt.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (07:21):
Oh, beautiful.
Judy Gratton (07:23):
Well, it is beautiful, except that it's very
difficult.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (07:26):
You can't take the dirt with you.
Judy Gratton (07:28):
You can't take the dirt with you, but they built
that home back in the 70s andthey've been there ever since.
The transition is just very,very difficult.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (07:41):
Yes.
Judy Gratton (07:42):
What are some of the difficult?
Yes, what are some of thecommon emotional hurdles?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (07:49):
that people should be prepared to
face.
I think one of the main ones isresistance.
That comes up again and againoh, do I really need to do this?
We've got a three-story houseand now I'm in a wheelchair.
Do I really need to do this?
We can put it in an elevator.
People go through.
If you're familiar withElizabeth Kubler-Ross's stages
of grief, the first one isdenial, resistance, and very
(08:15):
often, of course, if it's anaging couple, then one of them
is in one place, the other one'sin another and somehow they
have convinced themselves to getto your office to talk about
selling their home, right.
But I think they can expect alot of tension around that, a
lot of magical thinking, thingslike, oh, we'll put in an
(08:38):
elevator or, you know, we'll putin a fire escape and that has a
ramp on it All kinds of crazythings that people think of in a
desperate effort not to have toleave their home.
Resistance, denial, and thenmaybe anger is another big one.
Why do I have to do thisSo-and-so down the road?
(09:00):
They don't have to do it, andthey're the same age I am and
their kids have come in and nowthey live with their kids.
The kids have come back to homebecause they don't want to sell
the house.
I think you can rationalize italmost any possible way.
Anger I always say anger andgrief.
Judy Gratton (09:18):
Who are they directing this anger at?
Well, often at each other.
Elizabeth Clark-S (09:20):
unfortunately , this anger at Well, often at
each other, unfortunately.
Okay, or it may be at you.
You may get some of this.
Oh, why do I really need to dothis?
Have you experienced that?
Judy Gratton (09:31):
Yes, I have.
I've had people be angry withme and it's not anything I can
control.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (09:42):
No, it has nothing to do with you.
And so that's what I mean aboutthe irrationality of the anger.
It can be addressed at theirkids, maybe, for not stepping up
and buying the home so thatthey could always go back to it.
Look at the housing prices inSeattle, for example.
My kids couldn't afford to buymy house, right?
I mean, it's just not rational.
But we'll do anything not tohave to give up that door jam.
(10:04):
That has all the stages.
You guys can move in here andthen we'll come visit you from
wherever we live in our smallcondo, right?
So anger and then the pointabout anger and grief are two
sides of the same.
They're so close.
The anger often defends againstthis deep grief to leave the
(10:28):
home, to leave the memories.
But it's something that must befaced and often, especially men
, sometimes it's a matter ofpride oh, I don't feel grief
about leaving the home.
It's very practical.
And they'll say to their wifewe have to do this, you know we
have to do this, but they'rejust afraid of their own grief.
They don't want to have to saythis breaks my heart.
(10:52):
So you have to be able to facethe fact that it breaks your
heart, and that's a very hardthing for many people to do.
Judy Gratton (11:01):
Dennis, your father.
How did he react when they lefttheir home?
Did you see any of that in him?
Dennis Day (11:10):
my dad didn't like feelings as much as I would have
preferred him as a father attimes.
My mother, he was the doer, thegoer, and we're just going to
plow through.
This is the practical, thatsort of mentality.
Judy Gratton (11:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Dennis Day (11:27):
So my mom was a little more attached
particularly when they had lived10 years in a really small,
tight knit community and donethe potlucks and all this that
she was going to really miss outon this social life when they
moved.
But my dad was more like no,this has to be done.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (11:46):
Let's get busy.
You know Well that's anothervery important point, dennis is
community.
I mean often it's not just thehouse, especially if the kids
grew up there and you all wentto school functions together and
got to know the neighbors.
Everybody got together, raisedtheir kids together.
We're in and out of eachother's houses.
It's the neighborhood that issuch a loss.
(12:09):
Oh my goodness, that's anothervery big one.
Judy Gratton (12:13):
Where's the local pharmacy, the grocery store?
the cars that you know there,the shortcuts you know how to
take if you're driving thosesorts of things All of those
come into play.
It's funny because when I leftthe first house we owned, we
were in for about five years.
We moved in when my daughterwas two and she's now 39.
We were only in it for likefour or five years, but when I
(12:35):
left I cried.
We were still leaving behindand I was much younger than I am
now.
I think it's definitely moredifficult as you get older, but
it happens for a lot of peoplewho have a home and a community
that they enjoyed.
Even if it's a good thing likemoving into a bigger house, a
(12:56):
better school district stillthere's a loss leaving behind,
absolutely Bringing up the ideaof any age in terms of this
transition.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (13:07):
If you're an older couple and
you're moving because it's justtoo hard to manage in two or
three level house it's too muchspace and it's harder to get
around Maybe you've taken acouple of falls.
The real reason for moving issafety.
Downsizing brings you close notonly to the loss of the home
(13:29):
but your own mortality.
That may be the elephant in theroom that nobody really wants
to talk about If we're80-something and we move into an
apartment independent living.
I have a girlfriend whom I'veknown for 65 years.
We grew up as little kids onthe same block and of course
both live in very differentcities.
(13:51):
Now she lives in Austin and Ilive here.
But she recently gave up herhome of 35 years that where
she'd raised her daughter tomove into this studio apartment.
She couldn't afford more than astudio.
If you look at the cost now ofindependent living places, it is
outrageous.
(14:11):
She had to get rid of almosteverything.
She was a professor, she hadbooks and books, a whole room of
books.
Those all had to go, except fora little bookshelf in where she
lives now.
She's kind of in shock.
She can't drive anymore.
She's losing her memory.
Her kids were frantic about it.
It's absolutely what had to bedone, but it was a big
(14:34):
transition.
Dennis Day (14:36):
So if someone is feeling these depression,
anxiety, anger, grief what aresome techniques or methods to
help people overcome these andget the job done or move on?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (14:55):
I think it's the same as with any kind
of grief counseling.
Talking about it helpsenormously.
Talking with your pastor, atherapist or close friends who
really understand it, who canjust listen, without trying to
problem solve, without trying tosay maybe you can stay there
just two or three more years.
You need to find a listener whoreally gets the depth of the
(15:19):
pain and doesn't try to smoothit over, doesn't try to make you
feel better, but says okay,this is the stage you're in at
this point in your life.
If there's a couple involvedand there's conflict around that
, couples therapy or maritalcounseling with your pastor can
be essential.
(15:39):
You can talk it throughtogether.
In my experience very oftenpeople say things in couples
counseling to each other thatthey've never said before at
home A shock to both of them.
You know I didn't know you feltthat way or what.
You're really angry with meabout that.
You know that comes up a lotand to acknowledge that this
(16:16):
kind of transition requires thatkind of sometimes professional
help fully as much as, say, thedeath of your parents or the
death of a child or somethingthat we think of is, oh, of
course you'd go into a supportgroup.
I don't know that there existssupport groups for people going
into downsizing housing.
Judy Gratton (16:22):
It would be an excellent thing to have,
wouldn't?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (16:24):
it?
Yeah, that would be absolutelywe should start that.
Dennis Day (16:27):
Yeah, we should.
Judy Gratton (16:28):
Because when you talk about the listeners Dennis
can attest to this we spend alot of time doing that.
Oh, you people are liketherapists.
From the standpoint of beingsimilar in age, I can relate.
I tell them I'm going throughthe same thing because we have a
two-story house on a lot that'sway too big and I just don't
(16:52):
want to do all the things thatare required.
One of the things that is sodifficult is that you watch
homes where people cannot takecare of them, refuse to leave
and the homes begin todeteriorate and then, when they
(17:13):
don't have a choice anymore orthey're gone, you're left with
something that is not as muchvalue as it could have been had
it been maintained.
The paint's peeling off thehouse, the yard is so overgrown
you can't see the front door.
It just goes on and on, andit's really not their fault,
other than the fact that theycould have maybe moved earlier
(17:36):
and avoided that.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (17:38):
So you know that's another very
critical point because in a waythat has a life of its own,
mm-hmm.
Very critical point because ina way that has a life of its own
, you could appeal to the personby saying, if this is a living
organism, your home and thepaint on the walls and the roof
that you put in five years ago,you know that doorstop that has
(17:58):
all the stages of growth of yourgrandchild, don't you want to
maintain it and care for it sothat it can be passed on to
another generation?
Judy Gratton (18:09):
And a lot of times , when the decision is finally
made to make the move andthey've seen what their
neighbor's homes have sold for,they have this expectation that
their home is going to be thesame thing, and the problem is
that they need a new roof andthe furnace is 25 years old and
(18:30):
the electrical box is maybe notup to code anymore, and it just
goes on and on, and every one ofthose subtracts value from what
the home could sell for, andthat's really another thing
that's hard for people to wraptheir heads around, because that
money is what they're going tolive on, most likely in the
(18:50):
future.
Elizabeth Clark-Ster (18:51):
Absolutely so.
Dennis Day (18:52):
Yeah, that's our American way is that you at
least for since post-World WarII you buy the home, live in it,
you sell, take the equity andthen that's what you live on in
retirement.
And this has been prettyeffective for a lot of people
(19:12):
because the home values haveskyrocketed so they can leave
with a significant amount ofmoney that they could be in a
retirement community, they couldgo to a smaller place, and
without that equity they'rereally limited on what they can
(19:33):
do, and in my case, my mother's93.
Well, she's run out of thatmoney.
I mean, it can only last solong, right?
So?
And now we're trying to get heron Medicaid so that she has
continues to be able to stay inthe same place.
But if you let your home go,you're reducing the amount of
(19:56):
money you have in thatend-of-life cycle.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (20:02):
Well, and it brings up the whole
practical aspect of all of this,because there's the emotional
attachment and then there's thepragmatics of it.
And you know, years ago, when Iwas trying to make a difficult
decision, someone said, well,just take a, a legal pad and
draw a line down the middle andput pro and con.
(20:22):
Well, in this case you mightput practical and on one side
and, uh, attachment or emotionalor love on the other idea, you
know, so you can list all thesethings you're talking about.
You know we need that.
Judy Gratton (20:36):
Yeah, that was the .
My next question is how?
How do you help peopledifferentiate between their
emotional attachments to thingsand and what's practical, what
you know, what to be done?
No matter what you, you can'tkeep all those books that you
have.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (20:57):
Well, exactly what you just said that
you know on the on the on thereality side would be, for
example, in my friend's caseshe's too distracted to drive,
it's dangerous to drive, shekeeps falling.
She's she wouldn't say this,but she is.
But her short-term memory ishorrible.
So you know she forgets things.
(21:18):
When I visit her I end upsaying, well, you know, you put
that in the freezer.
It really belongs in the stove.
She just can't manage theday-to-day.
And those would actually be onthe practical side.
Yeah, they would be on, let'sface, reality side.
And and the cost?
(21:39):
And, uh, she lives in austin,so she just sold this huge home
for four hundred thousanddollars.
That home in almost anyneighborhood in seattle would go
for over a million.
Yeah, so you know there's.
You have across the country,you have different realities of
pricing and all of that.
And how long is that moneygoing to last?
And then on the other side, youhave all those books, all those
(22:02):
cherished memories, the canopybed that is still in the little
child's room even though herdaughter's in her thirties.
You have all the attachmentthings.
And to be able not to demonizeyour feelings, I think that's so
important, to be able to say itmatters.
It matters to me and it's aboutlove.
(22:23):
It's about the great love thatI had for my daughter that I
still have the canopy bed inthere, because I love going in
there, just look at it and toremember it.
And at the same time, it's aboth.
And you know, which I think isactually really a marker of
aging is to be able to face theparadox of life.
(22:46):
Almost everything as we getolder.
It's not either or it's not.
I'll stay in my home until Idrop dead, or I just, you know,
leave everything and I go, and I, you know, give it all away and
I grieve for the rest of mylife.
Neither one of those are goodalternatives.
The alternative is to face bothend and to say, yes, it's going
(23:07):
to hurt like heck, but I'mgoing to leave it.
And you know, oh, one idea Ihad was to take pictures of
things in the house, and youcould actually even old school
make an album.
All of our pictures are on ourtiny little phones, but even if
they're saved on the iCloud,it's still not the same, I think
(23:29):
, as having an actual photographalbum that would have a picture
of the canopy bed.
This is where she grew up.
This is what I love about thishouse.
Judy Gratton (23:38):
I actually have suggested getting index cards
and putting the photo on thecard and writing your story why
it's important to you, liketaking a picture of that piece
of the door jamb with all theand then writing your story on
the back.
Because, although your familymembers don't want the things
(24:01):
I'm sure the daughter doesn'twant the canopy bed but they
would appreciate what yourthoughts were about that canopy
bed.
So, whether you put it in aDropbox file or in an index box,
in the box you can pick it upand look at it and read your
story and remember theimportance of it, which I've
(24:23):
suggested that to clients.
I've even given clients boxes.
It's easier said than done.
I think it's a good I've beendoing that with things that I've
given away.
I've taken photos of them.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (24:39):
That's brilliant.
Are you sure you don't want tobecome a therapist?
Judy Gratton (24:45):
I think we might be a little bit here.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (24:49):
You know , once years ago I had a client
who was a hairstylist and shewould talk about when I get
people in my chair, and thenthey would tell her their whole
life stories.
Well, how is that so different?
Oh, in fact I have a friend whowas a psychologist for a while
and he said no, I think I can dobetter help for people by
(25:11):
selling them houses, and becamea real estate agent and loved
his work because I think they'reso similar.
Judy Gratton (25:19):
It's such an emotion.
It doesn't matter how old theyare, it's every day in real
estate's a new day.
You don't know what you'regoing to be coming up against,
but the emotions that can evolve.
Commercial real estate is adifferent beast.
I don't do it.
It's all analytical, and atleast that's been my experience.
(25:39):
So residential is veryemotional.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (25:44):
Yeah, of course.
No, that's a wonderful idea,anything that you know.
They talk about how a teddybear for a child is a
transitional object.
Right that a child atransitional object, right that
a child, say, who's in adivorced home, goes back and
forth.
My daughter had a Big Bird dollthat she grabbed onto the neck
of that thing and the neck gotso thin you could barely the
(26:06):
threads, you know.
But she would take Big Birdwith her back and forth.
Well, this is the same concept.
They're back and forth.
Well, this is the same concept.
Whatever Like, for example, ifyou had a big yard and you had
beautiful plants in the yard,well, you know, even if you move
into a condominium that has not, doesn't even have a deck, you
can have a windowsill where youcan plant something that reminds
(26:27):
you of home.
Bring the rose with you, even ifit's miniature roses that you
get at the QFC, you know, butthey're the same color and when
you water them and smell them,you can go.
This is I'm still home, you knowand on a profound level, one of
the things that this can caninspire in people going through
(26:50):
this kind of a loss.
It's the same as going throughany death.
It kind of brings you to thedark night of the soul in
yourself, yes, but it can helpyou if you, if you use it in the
right way and you can journalabout it, as you say, write
stories about it, write yourfeelings, do art about it.
(27:10):
It can bring you to a placewhere you realize that home is
deep inside of you and that, ina way, everything in the
environment around you was aprojection of that love, that
attention, but that even indeath, you take it with you,
that home is a part of you, sothat the transition into a
(27:34):
smaller space is not really thatsignificant.
If you can get to the placewhere you say, okay, it's there
within me and will always bewithin me, and whether you want
to call it divine love or CarlJung would call it the self with
a capital S, it's who you aredeep inside and helping to
(27:55):
transition like this and to letgo.
Anytime you let go of things inyour external life, whether
it's a loved one who died or abeautiful home that you tended
and cared for all those years,the act of letting go brings you
to what you will never let goof which is your own deep self.
Judy Gratton (28:17):
I like that, I really like that idea.
Dennis Day (28:19):
Well, we're getting deep into emotions here.
How can the downsizing impact aperson's identity, especially
if they associate the home tofamily stability, history and a
sense of self?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (28:36):
Well, that's a great question and a
good follow through to what Ijust said, because that's about
the death of the ego, and we allhave one and we all need one to
survive in the world, to thrive, to say here I am, I'm
Elizabeth Clark Stern and I'vedone all this stuff and I've
made all this money and I'vepublished this book.
(28:57):
But in the end, again, it's apart of saying what is my
identity?
Who am I really?
Am I the person who has createdall these things and done all
these things?
Yes, that's good, that's goodand I can be proud of that.
Can I move to a new place in mylife where I can let go of the
(29:17):
need to identify with who I am,what I look like, what I've done
, and instead identify with thegreat, deep love that I have to
connect, to attach, to give, tobe with?
And this is a very, verydifficult transition and one of
(29:41):
the books that I think would bemarvelous for people to read.
It's not specifically abouttransitioning from one home to
another.
It called falling upward byrichard roar and it's about I
think the subtitle is somethinglike uh, finding a new dimension
to yourself in the second stageof life.
(30:02):
I like that.
Yeah, yeah, and he's one.
He's on youtube.
If you want to go on youtubeand just search richard roar,
he's all over the place, he'show do you?
spell roar r-H-R.
Okay, richard, and he's aFranciscan friar, but he's the
most unorthodox Franciscan friarI've ever run into.
(30:24):
He talks about sex and he talksabout all the dimensions of
life, the grittiness of life,with great humor, and he looks
like Santa Claus.
I mean, he's just thismarvelous guy.
But Falling Upward is about.
You know, when you begin tofall from the identity that you
have forged all your life, thesuccess, the living in the fancy
(30:47):
neighborhood, the nice car, allof these monikers of identity
that late in life, just don't,it doesn't hold.
It doesn't hold psychologically, because either you have to
move or you just begin tointuitively look around you and
say is this really me?
(31:10):
Do I need all this?
And it doesn't mean that makingmoney is bad, it doesn't mean
that living in a beautiful homeor a rich home is bad at all.
You take all that with you, butyou begin to transition into a
place where identity is based onconnection, relationship, the
(31:31):
moment, the moment of your life,now.
Now, precisely because youdon't have that many years left
you know, if you're looking at76, I certainly.
I mean, maybe I have anotherdecade, who knows, another year,
who knows.
But it brings into focus thevery preciousness of your
(31:51):
experience of life and your ownjourney away from an identity
that's based on anythingexterior that's very.
Judy Gratton (32:01):
I had never thought of that before like that
.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (32:04):
That is incredibly um deep I gotta tell
you guys, it's also so freeing.
Judy Gratton (32:12):
Well, I don't think people, you know, it's
been my experience that it'slike if I don't have this thing,
this cup, this, whatever it is,you know I'm going to be lost.
They're not.
Most people don't spend theirlifetime looking inside and
they're looking outside, and sothat transition from one to the
(32:35):
other I think has got to be, um,if you haven't done it, it's
got to be kind of difficult.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (32:42):
So it's very difficult, but if you can
and uh, it's like.
It's like people who havenightmares, for example.
I do a lot of work with dreamsbecause dreams are an incredible
landscape for understandingwhere you are in life and
sometimes the most horriblenightmares are about psyche,
(33:04):
your spirit, your dream makershaking you and saying wake up.
Wake up, you know.
If there's a wolf coming in thedoor, what is it in your life?
You need to turn and face andconfront and in my experience,
people dream about houses a lot.
Judy Gratton (33:20):
They do.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (33:21):
I do.
Judy Gratton (33:22):
But I always tack that one up because that's what
I do for a living.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (33:26):
Well, maybe I mean dreams you know
exist on so many levels.
But I dream of my grandmother'shouse I dream of in dreams,
dreams.
The house symbolizes yourself.
That is you, your house.
So if you dream of yourgrandmother's house, I think
it's that that's where my senseof myself was born when I was a
(33:47):
little girl.
Somehow I attach it tograndma's house even more than
the house I grew up in with myfamily, just because she was so
loving and it was so differentand it was so strange and
wonderful.
But dreaming about houses,especially if you have to leave
one, can be another way that youcan say wow, what love lived
(34:11):
here.
How do I take this love thatwas in every corner of this
house and put it inside of me sothat I take it not only to the
new house, the downsized house,but take it out in the world,
take it to my children, mygrandchildren.
The plants that I plant and puton the windowsill, those are
(34:32):
the questions.
I think that could be.
That I plant and put on thewindowsill, those are the
questions.
Judy Gratton (34:36):
I think that could be transformative for people.
Now, speaking of children, oneof the major conflicts that we
run into when people aredownsizing is many of their
children.
Either they want to be totallyinvolved and tell their parents
how they're going to do things,or they don't want to be
involved at all, or they'refrustrated with their parents
(34:58):
because they won't let things goand it comes across.
It causes tension and anxietyand, oftentimes, conflict.
What would you say to thechildren?
What would you say to thebrother or the sister or anyone
who's trying to assist someonein this transition, because I
(35:19):
know they don't think about it.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (35:22):
Well, that's a tough one, that is very
tough, and I'm just dealingwith this the other day with
someone.
I think part of it is to startwith the parents actually,
because often all this tensiongets escalated because the
(35:43):
parents give the kids too muchpower over their emotional lives
.
And if one child says, mom,you've got to move right away
and I've got to take over yourfinances, and the other one says
, well, I don't want anything todo with it, I think you should
just stay where you are, blah,blah, blah, and they're fighting
In a way.
It's kind of back to youridentity question, dennis.
(36:06):
It's as an aging person.
Do you own your own value?
And say, okay, this is veryhard for me, I'm very attached
to the house, I don't want, Idon't think you need to take
over the finances.
If I need somebody to help mewith finances, charles Schwab,
thank you very much.
You know, it's the parent beingable to not be railroaded by
(36:27):
their kids and to not put upwith that kind of conflict.
And if the kids are going to bein conflict, you'd say to the
kids well, go away.
You guys figure this out and Isee that more often than you'd
think that there's a oh no, yousee it all the time.
Judy Gratton (36:47):
I had a very dear friend and her and she.
She had been raised duringWorld War II.
She was a hoarder and my firstexperience with her is she had
asked me to help her clean out aroom.
At the end of cleaning out theroom she was so mad at me
because I would pick up like apiece of ribbon this big and go
(37:10):
to throw it away and she wouldsay I can use that.
When I left.
I'm like I will never do thatagain.
You know it's she.
I have no idea, I didn't.
I know when she passed her kidsjust went in and threw
everything into dumpstersRightfully so.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (37:27):
Yeah.
Judy Gratton (37:29):
Oh how sad.
The house was bad but but thatthey had a lot of anger at her
because they wanted to come inand clean it up and she did not
want them to come in and cleanit up.
I don't know what she thoughtwould happen if I came in and
helped her with one room, but itwas.
Ooh, the tension around that isterrible.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (37:50):
Well, and hoarding is a mental illness
.
Yes, that is terrible.
Well, and hoarding is a mentalillness.
I mean, it's something that, asyou say, goes back to the
anxiety and the loss in WorldWar II.
So I need to hold on toeverything.
And when I worked in the fostercare system, kids would put old
pizza crust under their bed,they would hoard food in fear of
starvation if they had beenlocked in a room or something
(38:12):
you know.
So there's no way that childrenor, you know, god forbid, a
real estate agent can intervenewith that kind of incredible
anxiety and acting out ofanxiety.
If you're talking just to thechildren because that was your
(38:44):
question again, I would stressthat you need to say to them
well, in the end this is yourfolks' decision and I understand
your anxiety, but your conflictis making it worse.
You two have got to either worktogether or just let one of them
take over and the other one goto Madagascar or whatever, get
out of the picture.
Judy Gratton (38:54):
And I think that I would love to make them aware,
because they're in a period oftheir life where they're not
doing this and they don't seehow this changed.
Like you said, it's aboutmortality too.
You're getting to a place wherethe things to look forward to
(39:17):
are a little bit spooky.
They're not.
You know, I'm going off tocollege, I'm getting my first
house, I'm getting married, I'mhaving children, and then
suddenly it's like, oh, now what?
And they don't see that, and Ithink I would love to.
If anyone is listening to thisbecause of their family
(39:38):
downsizing.
Please take it intoconsideration that it's really
important to be supportive, andI had someone tell me a long
time ago that when someone, ifthey're picking up the cup,
they'll start telling you thestory around the cup.
Let them tell you the story.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (39:57):
Oh yes.
Judy Gratton (39:58):
And then it's easier for them to pack it or
give it away.
Transition it's much moreimportant to I think, give the
(40:22):
people the grace to work throughthose items, absolutely
Whatever it is yeah.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (40:26):
Yeah, that's back to the attachment.
You know how significant andhow strong that attachment is to
the cup.
Yes, to whatever it is tools.
I've done this a lot dad'shammer and I'm not giving up
dad's hammer, not giving it up,yeah so it is just that, that
(40:48):
simple so it's that simple andit's that deep and it's that
complex and it's that hard, butthe kids are.
Dennis Day (40:57):
the kids are coming from a different place.
They don't know what the thisfeeling is, because they've
never experienced that feelingof their 80 year old mother.
They have their own agenda.
I've got to get her into a safeplace.
I got to get her into a placeshe can afford, and I'm this
house is crumbling, we got and.
I'm busy and I got to get herinto a place she can afford.
This house is crumbling and I'mbusy and I got to get this done
(41:17):
fast and I was guilty of that.
I just did not understand thefeelings of attachment my mom
had, the certain things likewhere's this coming from?
Well, now we know.
And if you're 40 and you have abusy life with kids, et cetera,
you can't understand somebodywho is feeling the grief and
(41:38):
loss of that move.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (41:41):
Right.
Dennis Day (41:41):
Because you haven't experienced it.
Elizabeth Clark-Ster (41:43):
Absolutely , and there's no real way to
open their eyes to that either.
I mean, I think it's importantto parents at some point to just
set limits on it and say lookguys, don't do this.
And I'm not going to explain itto you one more time.
Judy Gratton (41:59):
And that takes communication and I think when
you hit that conflict and anger,the communication goes out the
window.
Absolutely each other and andit and sometimes it takes
strength on the part of theparent to step and say that from
people who didn't have thatstrength to begin with, it's,
(42:20):
it's difficult, it's really.
This is such an emotional issue.
I am that's why I said I'm sograteful that you're here.
Dennis has a story I don't knowif he ever told you it's one of
my favorites.
This story I don't know if heever told you it's one of my
favorites about his mom's pieplate.
Oh no, no, can you go with thatagain?
For us.
Dennis Day (42:39):
Sure, we were moving her from independent living to
assisted living.
You can't have a stove inassisted living.
You can have a microwave butyou can't have a stove or oven
for safety.
Apparently it's a rule.
She was holding onto these piepans.
They were $12 pie pans, glassthat you could get at.
(43:04):
Fred Meyer, who said it was sohard, Didn't understand it.
I do now I totally, totally getit that this was not just
giving up a couple of glass piepans.
It was giving up the lemonmeringue pie she made for my
father at his birthday.
Or the pie, the strawberryrhubarb pie that came after
(43:30):
picking strawberries out in thefield, or the Christmas pumpkin
pie.
She was giving all that up andshe hadn't done any pie for
years and years and years.
But it didn't matter.
It was tough and it was hard tounderstand because I was not in
her place and I think that is aperfect example of what we're
(43:54):
talking about here.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (43:55):
Did you let her take the pie pans with
her?
I didn't.
Judy Gratton (44:00):
Such a bad son?
No, you're not a bad son.
Dennis Day (44:04):
She did give them up .
Yeah, it was, I made thingslike well, okay, mom, you can
come over to my house and makepie or something.
But you know, I'm sorry, Idon't know if I was just mean or
ultimate, but I just think youcan't take them.
(44:26):
You can't.
You don't have room.
She's going from.
You know, 600 square feet, twobedroom place to under 300.
And they're just she won't beable to use them.
So I feel bad about that time.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (44:43):
I'm impressed with how much you've
grown and that you now say now Iget it, now I understand.
And here's an example.
I was talking about my friendwho recently moved, who had the
daughter with the canopy bed.
Well, she took a baby dish thatwas you know what her daughter
ate out of, and she brought itto the new place but she put
(45:03):
dirt in it and plantednasturtiums and put it in the
windowsill sill.
So if there's a way that thepie pans, for example, could
have been repurposed, and youknow dirt from the old house put
into it, you sprinkle it withlittle seeds or something.
That's a way that can have amagical, you know almost
(45:25):
alchemical, transitional aspectto what you're doing.
Dennis Day (45:30):
Well, is there a way to help adult children who have
an agenda or busy, who don'thave the emotional feelings to
help them understand what theirparent is going through?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (45:43):
Well, I would recommend family
counseling.
Okay, I would say, look, youguys don't get it and you know
I'm a real estate agent and youneed professional guidance.
Judy Gratton (45:55):
I'm not sure I'd say that I don't know, elizabeth
, we'll get that job if we tellthem they need professional help
.
Dennis Day (46:02):
Find somebody else.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (46:05):
Well, seriously, you know, because I
mean you can try to give themthe pie pan story I think that's
a great example of trying tohelp them understand how
profound this is for theirparents and how their resistance
and their practicality I meanshow them the two.
(46:26):
Okay, here's all the practicalstuff and here's what mom is
going through.
Here's all the practical stuffand here's what mom is going
through.
She's going through grief andloss and anger and bargaining
and you know all of theKubler-Ross stages of grief.
That's where mom is.
(46:46):
I mean you can really help byor a family counselor, someone
who can help you really see itfrom your parents' point of view
and how understanding that willmake it easier for everybody,
because nobody needs all thisconflict.
Judy Gratton (47:00):
I think the kids begin to look at the parents as
fragile as children and thatthey have to take care of.
Dennis Day (47:11):
And.
Judy Gratton (47:13):
I mean I.
At one point my daughterstarted referring to my husband
and I as her little parents.
I can show you how little I amhere and just any.
Don't do that, you know, and itand so I.
I see that a lot betweenparents and children, especially
(47:34):
as parents get older.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (47:36):
And they're not wrong.
I mean, that's the thing.
The kids are not wrong to lookat the parents.
And we are getting more fragileas we get older and we do have
falls and we do have lapses ofmemory and we do screw up on the
technology because we've neverunderstood it in the first place
.
But I think again, justencouraging empathy and I don't
(48:02):
know, that it would help to sayyou're going to be there one day
.
God willing, you'll live to be80 and you'll experience what
this is like, that probablywouldn't help.
No, because they won't get ituntil they're rich.
What you guys have to deal withis the reality of how hard all
this is.
It all falls to you to try toenlighten people.
Dennis Day (48:27):
Well, we've talked a lot about this in previous
shows that that planning ahead,having the if you're a senior,
talking with your family aboutwhat you want before it has to
happen.
In my case, and so many cases,all this happens at a crisis
point, when mom falls and has tomove or the house is so bad
(48:53):
they can't get around Instead ofreacting that you have a plan
and then the person who has tomove has some sense of control.
Tough to do, I mean, because Idon't know, maybe it's American,
maybe it's just human nature.
We don't plan ahead as much.
(49:15):
We're not proactive, we'rereactive.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (49:19):
Well, I think that's very critical, very
important point.
My husband's brother, who'sonly three years older than him,
died a few months ago justsuddenly, just had a heart
attack and went, and my kidswere so jolted by it.
They both texted and said youguys have to give us a real.
I mean, we have a big folder ofall of the legal stuff and
(49:43):
we've done all that.
They said no, no, no.
You've got to tell us exactlywhat you want, where you want
the ashes.
Do you want us to?
You know, compost you or do youwant real specific?
Because it frightened them thefact that he could go so quickly
.
One of us could go so quickly,so we did.
We said look, we want a parkbench and above the bluff at
(50:04):
richmond beach and at nightsecretly mix our ashes together
and put them in the bushes there.
Dennis Day (50:12):
Good for them, though.
I mean, that's really a healthyway to live your life.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (50:19):
Yeah, to look ahead Absolutely.
Dennis Day (50:28):
Are there any therapeutic approaches and
techniques that you can helpclients process their feelings
of loss while preparing thememotionally for a new home?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (50:36):
Oh boy, oh, it's so wonderful that you
ended that sentence with newhome, because I think part of it
is understanding that this newhome is something you can imbue
with new vision, new dreams,color the more detail that they
(50:57):
take in.
Okay, that was that way in theold house, but you know, I
didn't really like the way thewindow shades were in the back
bedroom, so the details of how Iwill make this so special for
myself and my husband say it'sthe couple.
You know, really almost likeyou're decorating a doll's house
(51:19):
and a child.
You know, uh, opening up yourimagination, seeing the positive
aspects of the fact that youwon't have to climb the stairs
to do the laundry or whatever itis, emphasizing those kinds of
positive aspects and, at thesame time, talking about writing
(51:40):
a journal, maybe what you'retalking about with the stories,
writing stories, taking pictures, thinking about what do I want
to remember about the house andhow can I preserve that in a way
that is small and fits in thenew house and is all about.
You see the Richard Rohr bookthat I was talking about.
(52:01):
The most wonderful thing aboutit is that he says in the second
half of life you really arefree of the things you talked
about, dennis, about when you'rein your 40s and you're working
two jobs and you're raising kids, and often women are working
two jobs and raising kids.
You know, gone are the days ofthe 1950s, they're all.
(52:24):
Life is so stressful now.
Well, what if you can let thatgo, and even let go the idea of
having to maintain the lawnwhere your house you know, your
beautiful house was.
Focus on the fact that this isgoing to be a transition into a
free and enjoyable time of mylife.
And how do I consciously invitethat and create that?
(52:47):
And take that art class that Inever had the time to take?
And, you know, if you miss yourneighborhood friends, you know,
invite them to join a yogaclass with you.
So you see them once a week,you know.
But just be very intentionalabout how you can bring value
and love and joy into your life.
Dennis Day (53:08):
Have you ever dealt with clients that have kind of
resisted or felt the loss andgrief of downsizing and then
suddenly found out that the nextplace was really positive?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (53:24):
Yes, yes , yeah.
Even my friend that I talkedabout, who downsized from her
big house, is kind of in shock.
The upside of it is, I hear hersaying, oh, but then I went to
this, this event that they had,and now they have exercise
classes every morning and Idon't have to cook ever because
(53:45):
they have meals.
I mean, in spite of the factthat she's still kind of going
through the transition I've seen, I finally said to her you seem
more alive to me than I haveseen you in a long time, when
(54:08):
you were back in your house,your big house, alone with your
dog, miserable and not havingthe energy to get out and go to
the senior center.
Well, now you live in a seniorcenter.
You can't avoid it.
You have all this wonderfulopportunity for interaction.
So, yes, that's one example.
She's a friend, not a client,but I've seen it, especially
with the death of a spouse.
If a spouse dies and then saythe wife has now got to downsize
(54:33):
, needs the resourcesfinancially.
There's also a joy in that, ajoy in joining with a community.
I knew someone who moved to aplace called Sungaya.
I know Sungaya, you knowSungaya.
Judy Gratton (54:50):
I have a friend who lives in Sungaya.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (54:52):
Oh well, talk about it and listen to
people about it.
Judy Gratton (54:56):
Yeah, it's a great place.
I mean, they have very limitedhousing there, so it's hard to
get in.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (55:03):
Well it is, but the person I know who
moved into Sungaya is an what dothey call it?
A not intentional community.
There's a word co-housing.
Is that it?
Judy Gratton (55:14):
Yeah, but I believe it is an intentional
community too.
Yeah, I've watched that placedevelop for decades.
Now they do.
That's a very interesting place.
It's in Bothell.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (55:27):
Well, and the person I know again is
in a studio apartment.
Her bed is in her quote livingroom.
Person I know again is in astudio apartment.
Her bed is in her quote livingroom.
She has a little kitchen.
Judy Gratton (55:35):
I might know the same person.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (55:37):
That's very possible.
But in Sangai they have afabulous garden, they grow a lot
of their own food, they have apizza oven oh yes, they've got a
kiln for yeah, they've got allkinds of things.
Judy Gratton (55:48):
Oh yeah, they've got all kinds of things.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (55:50):
Oh yeah, and they have.
As I understand it, they hostlocal political candidates, have
all kinds of fundraisers andjoin and bring the community in,
and again that person is notlonely anymore, ever.
Dennis Day (56:08):
So yes, dennis, I've seen many positive outcomes so,
so yes, dennis, I've seen manypositive outcomes.
So is living as a widow, oreven as a couple you know, not
not speaking to each other,because you've said everything
it is loneliness a real severeproblem right now.
Oh, it's an epidemic.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (56:27):
I think it's absolutely an epidemic, um,
and I think there are all thesearticles, new York Times and
all these other places andstatistics and a terrible
problem.
Judy Gratton (56:38):
COVID did not help that.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (56:40):
Oh, the pandemic, oh my goodness, that
was, yeah, that made it all muchmore obvious and much worse.
And technology has not helpedat all, absolutely, absolutely,
even though I think one of thegood things about the pandemic
was Zoom.
Dennis Day (56:58):
We are.
Judy Gratton (56:59):
And I do a group.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (57:02):
Another thing I would highly recommend I
facilitate a group at St Mark's, which is an Episcopal
cathedral downtown in CapitolHill in Seattle, and we have a
group called the Third Actors,meaning we're in the third act
of our lives and we havein-person potlucks, but we also
(57:26):
meet on Zoom every month and Ithink there's 60 members on the
on the zoom call and third act.
We all talk about aging andit's it's a support group.
It's uh ways for people tobring up all their fears and
anxieties.
All of them are talking aboutthis, and the widows especially,
(57:47):
or the widowers.
There's some men who are justextraordinarily lonely, but they
meet at the potlucks, they talk.
I'm hoping secretly thatthere'll be some romances that
bloom out of this.
Dennis Day (58:02):
Is this a new?
Judy Gratton (58:02):
group, or do they have to be members of St Mark's?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (58:06):
Well, I think I don't think they have to
be members, and I know oneperson who's a member of a
different church.
Judy Gratton (58:13):
How would they find information on this?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (58:16):
Just go on the St Mark's website, okay,
or they could email me atecstern at yahoocom, because I'm
a facilitator.
Judy Gratton (58:26):
Okay.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (58:27):
And I'll put them on the email list and
invite them in.
Judy Gratton (58:32):
Okay, very good.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (58:34):
But I would hope there are groups like
this in community centers, inlocal churches.
I haven't done an extensivesearch of it, but community,
community, community, I think,is so much about what's
important and giving back in theway that you can.
I mean one of the things Irecently did that I stumbled
(58:56):
onto that I thought I wouldnever do something like this,
but in retirement, having only afew clients left, um, I joined
a group through saint marksalthough it's not directly
attached to St Mark's calledOperation Night Watch, and a
priest and a strapping young manand I the three of us go out in
(59:19):
the evenings up and down thestreet on Broadway and we have
bags of water and we talk to thehomeless, the people who have
chosen to leave their lights onthe street.
Most of them are drug addictedor mentally ill or both.
And I was so nervous I thought,oh, this is not something I
(59:41):
should be doing and my kidswould be freaked out if they
knew it.
And I said but I got to tellyou, the first gentleman that I
walked up to was sitting on abench and he was kind of
twitching.
And then he looked in my eyesand he said oh, who are you.
You're new out here and I said,hi, my name is Elizabeth,
what's your name?
And we shook hands and it wasso moving and I may never see
(01:00:05):
him again.
But I gave him water and socksand treats and uh, and he so
grateful and any way that youcan connect to the world like
that.
I mean a lot of people like towork with children.
They go to children's hospitaland hold babies these are all
things that counteractloneliness.
(01:00:26):
And you meet other people.
I mean, I've met a lot ofmarvelous people who go out on
the streets with me and we allreally love it and it's strange,
I guess, to really love doingsomething like that.
Judy Gratton (01:00:38):
But uh, but there are many opportunities out there
it's connection, it's it'scommunication, it's all of those
things that you're lackingright now.
Dennis Day (01:00:50):
So what's in your future, Elizabeth, your book
author?
Are there more books orretirement to, or something like
that?
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (01:01:02):
I'm in what I call divine flow, if you
will.
I have been blessed with frommy life as a Jungian therapist
and most recently from the workI've done at St Mark's.
I just feel a presence ofdivine love and I feel it
flowing through me and throughall the people around me,
(01:01:23):
whether it's the schizophrenicon the streets or singing in the
choir.
I'm singing in the choir and Ijust want to follow that flow
and trust that it will lead meto give and to receive and to be
a part.
And yes, I've got another bookthat I've finished and I don't
know if the publisher is goingto like it or not.
(01:01:44):
It's about artificialintelligence and humanity, but
we'll see and wrote another playand a group of us we call
ourselves the Shrink Raptorsbecause we're all therapists who
had a life in the arts beforewe became therapists.
(01:02:05):
So we really enjoy doing playstogether.
So whatever comes in thisafternoon, I'm adopting a kitty.
Judy Gratton (01:02:13):
Oh, good for you.
That's wonderful.
Well, I thank you so much.
This, I think, is probably myvery favorite podcast we've done
in two years.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (01:02:23):
Well, thank you, it was so great to
meet you and, dennis, so good tosee you again.
Dennis Day (01:02:27):
Yeah.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (01:02:28):
Very well.
Oh well, there's some of mybooks I forgot there have a few
there yeah, the uh.
The play out of the shadows isabout the?
Uh, the mistress and the wifeof carl jung and their
relationship.
And recently I just got uhcontacted by a woman in London,
(01:02:49):
a filmmaker, who wants to make afilm of it, and I gave her my
blessing.
I said, okay, great, write thescreenplay.
And I guess one of my favoritesdown at the bottom is Timeless
Night, which is a play aboutEdith Stein and Viktor Frankl,
who were both in Auschwitztogether.
(01:03:10):
And Viktor Frankl wrote Man'sSearch for Meaning.
He's an incredible psychiatristwho survived the Holocaust and
went on to create a whole schoolof psychiatry based on how you
can survive in a place likeAuschwitz by saying my soul is
my own, the Nazis can takeeverything from me, but not my
(01:03:33):
soul.
And Edith Stein was anincredibly brilliant philosopher
who had a conversion and becamea Carmelite nun.
Judy Gratton (01:03:42):
Oh my.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (01:03:43):
And she wrote an open letter criticizing
the Pope for his collusion indeporting Jews from Italy, and
for that the Gestapo came andtook her from the convent and
put her in Auschwitz.
So this play is an imaginednight when the two of them were
thrown into this old shedtogether for various
(01:04:05):
misbehaviors and met each otherand talked and knew each other
and kind of fell in love towardthe.
So anyway, thank you, Thank youfor showing those books.
Dennis Day (01:04:16):
You've been busy.
Judy Gratton (01:04:18):
I've got my little children's book.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (01:04:23):
Well, thank you both.
This was just delightful.
Judy Gratton (01:04:26):
Oh, thank you, Thank you.
Dennis Day (01:04:28):
Thank you, elizabeth , it's been awesome.
This is a topic that we'vereally wanted to dive deep into,
and you know it's really hardto find a therapist.
I'm so grateful that you tookthe time to be with us, and I
really hope all your journeysare positive, filled with joy.
I'm so excited that your lifejust sounds full of abundance,
(01:04:52):
and I appreciate that all thehelp that you gave me in the
past.
So I'm going to say goodbye.
See you next time.
Elizabeth Clark-Sterns (01:05:03):
Thank you so much, dennis.
Thank you so much, judy, sogood to meet you.
Judy Gratton (01:05:07):
It's a pleasure to meet you.
Dennis Day (01:05:09):
For watching or listening to Getting your Edge
Out how to Right Size your Homeand Life podcast.
We have many episodes audio andon our YouTube channel, getting
your Edge.
We would love to hear from youComment, like, subscribe, all
those things Plus, if you reallywant help with your housing
situation.
(01:05:30):
We always, always communicateand help people for free.
Okay, we consultations are free, so we'd love to hear from you
at edgegroupteamcom.
Just drop us a line.
Thank you so much.
See you next time, bye-bye.
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