August 18, 2024 • 48 mins
What if the traditional education system isn't just failing students with ADHD, but also those who are gifted? This week on Gifted Unleashed, we welcome Alícia Couto from Brazil, a twice-exceptional adult who navigates the complex world of ADHD and giftedness. Alícia opens up about her transformative journey, from her sister's initial research into ADHD to her own discovery and acceptance of her neurodivergence. She shares her struggles in college, often misattributed to personal failings, and sheds light on the pervasive underdiagnosis of ADHD in women, particularly those who are gifted.
Join us as we unpack the emotional and educational challenges that come with being gifted and having ADHD. Through my personal encounters with mental health professionals—ranging from validating to deeply frustrating—we underscore the critical need for the right support systems. Alícia offers a candid perspective on how traditional education often overlooks the emotional well-being of gifted students, focusing solely on intellectual capabilities. Together, we emphasize the importance of comprehensive support that addresses both intellectual and emotional needs, and the impact of a proper diagnosis on personal validation and family dynamics.
Alicia also takes us through her career journey, revealing the disillusionment she faced in the profit-driven engineering industry and the significance of developing soft skills. Her story is a powerful reminder of the necessity for workplace accommodations for neurodivergent individuals. Alícia's insights into alternative career paths, her sensory challenges in corporate settings, and the importance of community engagement make this episode a must-listen. We conclude by expressing our heartfelt gratitude to our engaged audience, encouraging everyone to stay connected by subscribing to the podcast and the Gifted Unleashed newsletter.
Follow Alícia on Instagram @aliciacouto.english for English Classes or email her
for English Classes and Translation Services: aliciacouto.english@gmail.com
Would you like to work with me 1:1 as your gifted and 2e coach? Please send me an email at hello@giftedunleashed.com or find more information about my coaching offer on my website giftedunleashed.com/coaching
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nadja (00:02):
Hello and welcome to Gifted Unleashed, where we talk
about the gifted and twice-exceptional brain and how it
affects our thinking andexperience of the world
differently.
There are a lot of stereotypesand stigma around the term
giftedness, and I'm here tochallenge those.
I'm here to raise awareness andto have a conversation around
the topic of what it means to bea gifted and twice exceptional
adult.
Common experience among giftedfolks is that they feel out of
(00:24):
place.
They don't quite fit in.
They're too sensitive, toointense, too emotional, too
overexcitable and too deepthinkers of the world and about
themselves.
So if you have been called toomuch of about anything, this
show is for you.
I'm Nadia.
I'm too loud, too colorful, toobubbly, too bossy and I love to
talk too much.
So welcome to my world.
I'm so happy you're here, toobossy and I love to talk too
(00:47):
much.
So welcome to my world.
I'm so happy you're here.
Hi everyone, it's been a longtime, but I'm so happy you're
here and we have another amazingepisode for you Today.
We have Alícia Couto on theshow and Alícia is joining us
from Brazil.
She is a twice- exceptionaladult, she has ADHD and she's
gifted, and she's going to tellus all about her journey, how
(01:07):
she found out, how she learnedthe vocabulary, how she went
about this and how it changedher life and what she's doing
today.
So I don't want to spill toomuch beforehand.
So, without further ado, here'sAlícia.
Alícia, I'm so excited you'rejoining me on my podcast today.
Alíca (01:27):
Yes, thank you for your invitation, Nadja.
As I said to you, I'm a really,really fan of your podcast, so
I'm pretty excited to be part ofthat.
Nadja (01:40):
Oh, thank you so much, Alícia.
And just for the listeners toknow, so we met on Instagram.
I reached out to you when I sawyou're following my profile and
then you were sharing with me alittle bit in the DMs your
story and I said, oh, thatsounds so amazing.
Would you like to share yourgifted story on the podcast?
(02:03):
So you're living in Brazil andso, yeah, we're having an
interview across the globe.
Yes, yes.
Alíca (02:12):
So I'm from Brazil, as you say, so I hope that I share
a little bit of my experiencefrom Latin America, right.
But just a comment that I wantto mention Brazil is a big
country, right, so I will sharehere my personal experience.
But of course, we have someprofessionals, who knows more?
(02:34):
We have some in Brazil.
But I think it is interesting,right to share a little bit
about my journey here.
Nadja (02:44):
Yes, exactly so.
Would you like to start withsharing a little bit your
journey?
You can start, you know, onceyou've discovered your
giftedness, or you can alsostart prior and what led to your
giftedness.
It's up to you how you wouldlike to share your story.
Alíca (03:13):
First, I will start with this story about how I
discovered the ADHD, right,because I think it's an
interesting story, because Ithink it says something about
how women are underdiagnosed.
You know, actually was becauseof my sister.
So my sister is already marriedand my brother-in-law?
He was diagnosed when he was akid.
So he knows since he was achild that he has ADHD, not that
(03:36):
he received the proper supportor accommodations, of course,
but at least he knew about itright.
So my sister, because she wantsto understand him better, you
know, like improve therelationship so she starts
researching.
So she entered in a hyper-focusmode Of course we didn't have
that language at that time soshe read a lot about it and then
(04:03):
she realized that actually shehad ADHD too.
So a lot of makes sense becauseshe had like some struggle when
she was a child, you know, likewith school and stuff, and a
lot of things made sense for her.
And then she got her diagnosedwith ADHD.
(04:23):
And then she came to me andsaid Alicia, I think you are too
, I think you have ADHD too.
And it took some time to acceptbecause I didn't feel like I was
, you know.
But she came to me because Ihave a sensory issue.
You know, like I always wasvery sensitive to flight noise
(04:47):
and everybody who knows me knowsthat right.
And she said that people withADHD has this thing too, and I
already thought in the past thatmaybe I was autistic, for
example, but I never went todiscover.
Of course, for example, when Idiscovered about introversion,
(05:08):
it helped me to understand alittle bit, but I don't think
explain everything right,because I think maybe it was too
much the sensitivity.
But I had a hard time to acceptbecause the point is and I think
this is interesting to talkabout because in my case I
didn't have problems with schoolwhen I was a child, right,
(05:33):
until my 18 years old, I didn'thave any problems.
I was actually really good, Ihave really great scores, right.
So for me it didn't make sensebecause I don't know how it is
in other countries but, forexample, here in Brazil, they
say that you need to present thesymptoms before you are 12
(05:54):
years old, and I think this isan important point to mention
because for gifted mostly,sometimes it's not the case.
For example, right or evenother ADHDers don't have this
experience and they think I amnot because I need to show right
, but it's not just because ofgrades right and score.
(06:16):
There's much more to talk.
So I had this resistance, butactually I start having problems
with school.
Let's say, when I enteredcollege.
I have a lot of problems incollege.
I took much more years tograduate, for example.
But I didn't think maybe it wasbecause of this.
(06:37):
I always thought it was maybemy fault.
You know, I was not workinghard enough.
It's not this, not this, it'snot it was, it was me, you know,
like, uh, I never thought thattime too, that maybe I had
something.
I always thought was me, youknow.
So she kept talking about it.
Always.
She come and bring this topicagain and again and I remember I
(07:02):
saw a TED Talk from.
I forgot her name, but it's agirl who has a YouTube channel
called how to ADHD that talksabout ADHD and her story was
really like mine, because shestarts struggle in college and
starts struggle with therelationships to the social part
(07:25):
of everything.
So I went and and and acceptand I got my diagnosis.
I went to the psychiatrist andgot my diagnosis and my when I
started the treatment.
I started treatment mainly withthe medication, but I didn't
have that time a therapistbecause of course I was
(07:46):
frustrated with therapists andhow old were you at the time
when you got your ADHD diagnosis?
was.
I was in the beginning of 2022.
I was 30 years old.
So I was 30 years old there,actually 31, sorry, 31, so it's
pretty recent.
Actually it's been two yearsthat I have the diagnosis and so
(08:11):
I started the treatment and mylife changed tremendously.
My work worked better.
At that time, I already wasself-employed and I was working
really hard on my business tomake things happen and just
putting effort, effort and nothaving much results as as like
(08:33):
equal the effort.
I was having results, but I wasputting a lot of effort and I
was not with much social life orfriends because my energy was
all to work, because work, youknow, is most important, right?
And after the treatment, when Istarted the treatment, things
(08:55):
got better.
I got more energy, because Ialways had a problem with energy
.
I was having already asituation with energy and
chronic pain too and somethinglike starts having like some
answers like the ADHD can be ananswer for this and so my energy
improved and my life startschanging.
(09:18):
But something was not quiteanswered.
Some things were not answered.
Some things were not answeredbecause sometimes I look at
people with ADHD, for example,my family right, my
brother-in-law and my sister, oreven people on the internet and
I didn't feel represented bythem, because, seeing that
(09:39):
something was off, because I sawthat I struggle with things
that they don't and theystruggle with things that they
don't and they struggle withthings that I don't like this so
something was and I still wantsome answers, and mostly my.
What I want some answers wasabout my social life,
(09:59):
interactions.
What was happening, the mydifficulty to connect with
people Because, for example,when I was in college, I worked
pretty hard in my social skills.
You know like I learned a lot.
I studied psychology, I evenstudied personality types, for
example, to understand peopleand what happened was that, of
(10:24):
course I I became good at this,but what I had was just
one-sided relationships right,because I was there.
Understanding people, and notnecessarily people, was back to
me, and I think this happens alot.
You try to fix yourself, butyou still feel unfulfilled with
(10:47):
the connections you have, and soI still was living this and I
thought, when I received theADHD diagnosis, I would correct
this, because I thought it wassomething about the sensory
problem.
That's why I could not interactmuch.
But I started analyzing myselfand reflect about what really
(11:10):
happened in each situation, forexample, the interaction that
was good for me and the onesthat was not.
What happened there, right, andI noticed that mostly the most
of the the time, it seems that Iwas not interested in some
conversation or I was notengaged or not paying attention,
(11:32):
but but these maybe actually uhfeel bad about myself.
You know, when I was therefeeling disengaged, um, because
I thought I me that is uhimpatient, like something like
that, and so I kept thinking.
I remember sharing with my, mypsychiatrist about it and he
(11:54):
brought the thing about theautistic uh possibility.
But we didn't search much.
But then I I found a short videoof a psychologist from brazil
and he he calls jean alessandro.
He was in a podcast and in theshort uh he explained was like a
(12:17):
cut right, a cut from a bigpodcast.
He explained the differencebetween a gifted ADHD and
anxious person.
So this video was shared in aFacebook group ADHD Facebook
group and when I saw that video,a lot of makes sense because he
(12:38):
explained the brain thinking,for example, and he talked about
some struggles right peopleface and he mentioned the book
of Paula Prober, that is, theReinforced Mind, right.
So I went straight to the bookand I read like I read really
(13:01):
fast, right, and actually Ialways say that what struck me
with reading that book is how mychallenges were all described
there and how she knows so muchabout me, because a lot of
things when she was explainingmade a lot of sense.
For example, the sensitivities,right, the ethics, how you care
(13:26):
about the word problems andsometimes you feel even naive,
right, because you care too much.
Um, so a lot of things, uh,made a lot of sense and so it
was really great to find herbook.
And just a comment about thispart of my my search right Is
(13:48):
because I'm actually talkingfrom a place that I'm I'm little
privileged to know English.
You know, because in Brazil Idon't know if all the listeners
know, but we speak Portuguese,right, but, like I even check
the statistics, actually just 5%of population know English and
(14:10):
just one percent is fluent.
It's like a really like areally small percentage of the
population that that knows.
So I'm coming from a placewhere I think that knowing
English was a really bigprivilege when I was searching
for knowledge, because what Ihave, what I leave, for example,
sometimes I want to share withsomeone the thing you know.
(14:33):
I think you're gifted.
But I have this problem of notbeing able to share good content
, like profound content, becausethe person sometimes doesn't
know English.
For example, I already had,like, I talked, for example,
with three people about it andone of these friends, she knows,
(14:54):
so she went deep and read thebook and listen to the podcast.
And there's another, she knowsEnglish, but she doesn't read
English.
You know like, ah, you're'regonna make me read a English,
english book.
I don't know if I can handle,like, and there was one that I
think was more, more sad for mebecause she didn't, she didn't
(15:17):
know, she don't know English,she doesn't know English, so I
could not share anything withher.
Because it's a lot of thejourney of self-discovery is you
, with your reflection, right?
You listen to stories, you readand you reflect about it?
It must be something that theperson do with themselves, right
(15:40):
?
So I read her book, right?
And I went to search, because Ihave this habit of listen
podcasts.
So I went to search, uh, her,on the podcast platform to find,
to see if she, uh she, she wasinterviewed somewhere and when,
(16:00):
when was.
And this way was when I foundyour podcast.
So it was really a great momentand since then, the podcast was
a great part of my journey andthis is that I want to say.
Like that, I'm really gratefulfor your work for other
podcasters Because of yourpodcast, for example, I found
(16:26):
the other podcasts that I reallyenjoy listening.
For example, from JenniferHarvin-Salling, there is
conversations about giftedtrauma, and Chris Wells from
Positive Disintegration I thinkis the top three that I most
listen and, of course, I alreadysee you there, they here, etc.
See you there, they hear, etc.
(16:46):
But your podcast made me knowother people that I was
discussing about and talkingabout and this was, I think,
very important, and mostlybecause I think it was something
about my self-discovery,because I was there, because
when you listen to a podcast,you're like a third person or
(17:08):
the fourth person in theconversation.
You are a little in theconversation, let's say this
experience.
So it was really great for meto listen to two or more gifted
women talking.
I think this was the mostimportant part for me.
I think this was very healingfor me, even because I was being
(17:29):
validated, I was beingunderstood a lot and people
sharing what I live is a reallywas a really important
experience for me.
And they say that listenpodcast is a way to co-regulate
in a way right, um, I was areally important experience for
me and they say that, right,that put like listen podcast is
a way to co-regulate in a waylike right, because you, you're
(17:51):
there sharing your experiencesand so I, I, I read, so I
continue reading and listening,and I went to to talk about my
suspicion, right, with theprofessional professionals that
was helping me.
That time I talked first with mypsychiatrist and I think this
was a good experience because mypsychiatrist is not normal.
(18:14):
Right, psychiatrists listen tous, but mine he listens.
I even will talk that.
I mentioned him here.
Maybe he's this.
I even will talk that.
I mentioned him here.
Maybe he is because.
So I share with him that I wasreading and listening to
podcasts and stuff and he said,oh, it makes sense.
(18:36):
So he validated my suspicionand he said that it was
important for me to get anevaluation, to know more about
it, right To be sure, right Tosee if there was something else,
because was still the suspicionabout the autistic possibility
was there yet.
(18:57):
So I think this was thepositive experience.
But at the same time I wasseeing a therapist not for long,
but when I found her, I said,oh, I have a diagnosis of ADHD.
I suspect that I am gifted.
Do you have any experience withgiftedness?
(19:19):
Right, because I want to knowthis?
And she said, yes, I have, anddid she, but I think, did she?
And she said, yes, I have, anddid she, but?
Nadja (19:26):
I think Did she and did she have experience?
Alíca (19:31):
And let's see.
I think what the experiencemaybe she has was just the most
stereotype experience that isknown, right, the physics genius
, you know, like Sheldon Cooper,right, I think everybody who
thinks about gifted think abouthim and again, I think this is
(19:53):
very important to say, he is aman, right?
So sometimes you can be likeexactly like him, the physicist
genius.
But if you are a woman, you'renot seeing like him, the
physicist genius.
But if you are a woman, you'renot.
You're not seeing like him.
Even a therapist that I, I sawher live.
She said that the gifted menare, I read, I perceived as
(20:17):
brilliant, and the, the giftedwoman, is perceived as difficult
to deal with.
So it's the one that createsproblems and I think this makes
much sense, but with thistherapist.
So I share my suspicion.
But of course I was a little, Iwas, with my expectations,
(20:39):
maybe not aligned, because I wasreading about
over-excilabilities and positivedisintegration and I want to
talk about it, of course, likewe all want, of course I want to
talk.
I was and I and I remember wasa moment that I read the book
Living with Intensity, where Ireally understood a little.
(21:00):
Of course I didn't read deeplyabout, but gave me a lot to
think already, a lot to process.
So I was having actually acatharsis because of this book,
of course, but I was okay, I wasactually happy, for I was
satisfied to having the answers,to have the understanding.
(21:22):
But I want to talk about rightand make sense.
But then she didn't receive well, this obsession about and
unfortunately, actually she waspregnant and she needed to go to
a maternity leave.
(21:42):
So we went we're gonna be in agap for a moment, so it wasn't
our last session and then shesaid things that was not not
nice because was reallyinvalidating, because she said
that just the, that maybe I wastoo obsessed, I was reading too
much, listen too much, and this,I think just this comment, is a
(22:05):
point to comment.
If you're dealing with a giftedperson, how you say that they
are reading too much, they'renot supposed to read this much,
how can you say this?
Um, so she said and but she,but I was thinking about get a
full evaluation anyway, but it'sexpensive.
(22:27):
I think everywhere in the worldis expensive.
So I I was postponing this, Iwas not sure to take or not, and
then she said that I wasreading too much, that I maybe
would forge the evaluation.
Nadja (22:43):
You would cheat the evaluation.
Alíca (22:46):
Evaluation as this would be possible.
I don't know if this would bepossible and this was very, very
complicated because of course,it was a very invalidating, very
like lonely moment and and shesaid, like that, maybe I was not
gifted, probably, but I wasautistic, not that this is a
(23:06):
problem, but I was invalidatedwith my suspicion about
giftedness, right, so okay, soof course I I listened to her
because I think this issomething that maybe gifted
people do, because we are, likethis, curious, so we search a
lot and not always well receivedbecause of this behavior, like
(23:30):
with specialists, but sometimesI really try to respect them,
try to respect them.
So, okay, I, even though Idon't, I don't, agree with you,
based when I think and I feelwhat I read, I will, uh, respect
your, your opinion, because youare the professional here.
So, I'm okay, I will, eventhough I don't, I disagree, but
(23:51):
you're okay, you're gonna.
You want to be treated as aspecialist.
You, you want my respect, it'sokay, I will take what you said,
even though she didn't say itin a good way, right, I have
reasons to not be hurt with thecomments, but so I went to get a
full evaluation.
(24:11):
I was really anxious.
I even did a lot of sessions inone week.
For example, I scheduled twosessions per week to have the
answer.
It was the end of 2022.
Nadja (24:26):
And may I ask the evaluation you got?
You were able to get it inBrazil itself, or did you do it
in English, or how did it work?
Where did you find support inthis regard?
Alíca (24:37):
Yeah, I was in Brazilzil.
Um, actually, in that thesemoments I already have found
some, some professionals inbrazil that talks about
giftedness and I search.
I found a psychologist and Istarted listening to her to see
what she was really saying, tosee if she was talking the same
giftedness I was, and I rememberI saw her page on Instagram and
(25:04):
I saw that she follows PaulaProber, for example.
She follows Paula Prober, shefollows conversations on gifted
trauma.
I think she knows she's yourperson.
Yes, she knows, so I talked toher.
Actually, I said that I wassearching for a therapist and an
evaluation and then she gave methe contact of the clinic that
(25:25):
I did.
It's actually in another city.
It's in the south, so it'sanother state.
So I'm from Sao Paulo state,but the clinic is in Paraná
state.
So I did online.
The clinic is in Parana state,so I did online.
Some psychologists say that wecannot do online, but it was a
good thing for me to do onlineand to have an answer.
But actually it was a fullneuropsychology test and we
(25:50):
thought about attention, memorytoo, not just the IQ.
We had the IQ part, but we hadthe emotional.
Let's say we talk about mystory, my struggles about
everything.
I remember answering a lot ofquestionnaires, I think it was
(26:10):
like eight sessions, and thepoint was, the thing I want to
discover, right is that, if Iwas gifted or not, if I was
really ADHD because some peoplesay, ah, sometimes you're not
ADHD, you're gifted but you getmisdiagnosed and if it made any
(26:33):
sense to be autistic too.
So I had this hypothesis to toher like a search, and what she
she discovered was I was gifted,yes, and adhd, but probably not
autistic in her point of view,you know.
And I think something isinteresting to mention this
evaluation, because I know thatwe try to talk about giftedness
(26:58):
outside IQ, right, because wehave other kinds of intelligence
and we have all this emotionalprofile that we present.
But what struck me in myevaluation that I actually am
the IQ gifted, you know, and Iwas feeling I feel a little of
(27:18):
course, uh, I don't know what toexpect, but I feel a little
neglected by the educationsystem because of it.
Was this maybe?
Was of course I was, you know,because I was the girl that was
really good in math.
You, you know, like I wasreally good in language, but I
(27:38):
think everybody sees me likethat I was a very dedicated,
very responsible girl.
That's why I got good grades.
I even received a comment froma teacher that I was not really
smart but, I, was very dedicated.
Nadja (27:58):
So more the high achiever type.
They thought you were the highachiever and I think you
mentioned something before westarted our recording that you
said there are two terms inPortuguese that kind of describe
the giftedness and more thehigh ability Right, Describe the
giftedness and more the highability right.
And so there's also adifference, I think, in the
(28:20):
language and which would youlike to explain a little bit
more.
Alíca (28:25):
Yeah, yes, yes, so in Brazil, nowadays, we have two
names for giftedness.
That is, altas habilidades,that is high abilities, in
translation, and another word islike super, super dotação,
right, I think this is the samewith spanish, you have some
(28:46):
relation.
So, actually, nowadays, theyaccept the two names and we even
have, uh, actually we have alaw, uh here about special
education.
That's uh, that's that havethese terms and everything,
because we have a lot toactually include, uh, like
children with disabilities,children with, uh, with gifted,
(29:08):
gifted children and autisticchildren, for example.
Actually all the schools, eventhe public schools, are kind of
obliged, obliged to have theaccommodations.
I think this law is from 2010,.
But I was already in college,right, and I know this too, and
(29:28):
the funny thing too is that mymother is a teacher and she did
the course to receive the giftedin their school, right, but I
was already in college and, ofcourse, we didn't have these
whole profiles, the emotionalprofile.
I don't think it was more aboutthe interest and even the
(29:49):
problems they create in class,for example, because of high
energy.
She says a lot about these kindof students, that they have a
high energy and creates problemsbecause of this, and sometimes
they are actually gifted, theyare really smart.
But so we have these two names,as I said.
But for example, there is a Ithink I don't, I'm not sure if
(30:10):
she she's a doctor, I thinkshe's a researcher that she
differentiates these two names.
That's saying that maybe highability is not a way to describe
, because high ability issomething you can develop right
If you put effort, like on this,and superdotação, right, is
something much more as broaderand we have the emotional
(30:35):
profile to like the historic ofthe person is a whole different
functioning.
And she even say that we shouldstop talking about super
dotação and start talking abouto super dotado, the person, not
just the, not they, just thegiftedness, but the gifted.
We need to talk about theindividual.
That is not because I thinkthink it's the same here in
(30:59):
Brazil than in other countries.
We talk about.
It's actually education thathas this knowledge and they
don't have the support for theemotional part of the gift, the
psychological part.
It's a lot about finding.
For example, my motherexplained that the course she
did was something like this tofind what they are interested in
(31:21):
and give them the resources,the accommodation to search for
these interests.
So they just observe the giftedand try to help, and, of course
, this changes according to theschool, according even to the
government, like the mayorsometimes change the investment
and they don't receive.
So it's not that because wehave the law that all gifted
(31:45):
people are receiving.
So I think so now, after mydiagnosis, I know now some
people who talks aboutgiftedness, like some
psychologists, researchers andthey really trying to find to
bring this agenda right Becauseit's something about health.
It's like even one, I think,said that it's actually an
(32:09):
emergency.
It's a health emergency, notjust mental health emergency.
Oh, wow, because we are talkingabout, like many children and
(32:31):
adults, right, oh, wow.
But I think one thing isimportant to mention is, even
though, as I said, I don't thinkall teachers have the training
to receive or all schools havethe resources to accommodate and
even the therapists receive thetraining to deal with the
children, the adults, still theadults not much like knowledge
(32:56):
and and conversation around this.
But I think I think is this thethe day start and after the
evaluation I got, I got finallythe answer right, um, so I think
was good to receive the answerto really like okay, now I
validate.
I even was talking to a friendabout this because she talks
(33:17):
that she discovered herself asgifted, but she didn't get the,
the evaluation because it wasexpensive.
She was not the, the math andthe math gifted, so maybe she
will not go good well in in theIQ.
And so we were talking aboutthis.
Sometimes it's not even maybe agood thing to get right,
(33:40):
because I think for me it wasbecause I have the validation
for the therapist, for thedoctor, for even the family show
.
Look, I'm different.
Okay, this is the point.
I know that here we have a lotof ADHDers because actually I
have two sisters, youngersisters, and then recently the
younger got the diagnosis ofADHD too, and it's funny because
(34:03):
she was the hyperactive girlyou know she got.
So we have an ADHD family, butgifted, I think the most.
The challenge of giftedness isme that maybe suffer most, so
that's why I have this answer.
Nadja (34:23):
So you could relate to some of your family, but you
could understand that there weresome differences between you
and your family.
Yeah, I have a similar story,which is also.
I believe most or some of myfamily has ADHD, whereas for me
the giftedness comes on top.
(34:44):
Um, but how did this alsoimpact your career?
I think you also through thewhole the multi-potential
Potentiality.
Alíca (34:55):
Yes, no, actually it affected a lot because actually
I chose to study engineering.
So I have a degree inelectrical engineering because I
was the math physics, the girlwho likes that.
But I also like languages.
I remember I like languages, Ilike to read, I even was good in
(35:18):
writing some some things.
So I went this.
But I, as I said, I have a lotof difficulties in college and I
think was mostly about the ADHD, but about the giftedness too,
because I was trying to find.
(35:38):
I remember sometimes I rememberthese moments in my story.
I think I was very naive, youknow, because I went to
engineering.
Really, my thinking, my feelingabout engineering is that we
solve problems, right, we arethe problem solvers, we create
systems to make life easier, butfor people, you know, for I
(36:03):
always had this, I had thisvision that we solve the
problems for the world or forthe people, and not for the
profit you know, like, like this.
So when I I discovered actuallywas all about the companies and
and I was I was always sofrustrated because I want to
talk with my colleagues aboutthe environmental problems, the
(36:27):
society problems, but I will.
I was with engineers.
So they always said to me,alicia, we should not worry
about this, just do do your work.
But I was having thisexistential crisis in my choice,
you know, because I reallythink we need to solve the
(36:48):
energy problem.
I will solve the energy problem, climate change so of course, I
got a little frustrated.
So I think I feel a littledisappointed with the degree
there.
But I continue studying andtrying to think that maybe I had
a role there to representsomething or bring the
(37:11):
conversation to the table.
But at the same time, I wastrying to do other projects,
like I uh, to develop differentskills, because I want to be the
, the engineer who has, like, uh, social skills.
You know, I was not.
I don't want to be the personwho doesn't know to talk, for
(37:32):
example, with people.
So I try to develop myself inthis and actually was a lot of
effort actually to develop somany parts of you right at the
same time.
But of course, we want this andI think these projects made me
develop some skills.
That actually now is moreimportant than my degree,
because I needed to learn how tocommunicate better.
(37:57):
I even like need to learn allthe soft skills.
I think the soft skills theEnglish was a part of this
because I was part oforganization that did a lot of
exchange between students.
So we bring students fromBrazil and we go some other
(38:17):
countries to do voluntary workmostly.
I actually went to do myexchange program in Malaysia
because I went to a reallydifferent country, a different
culture, because I think thiswould develop us better.
So that was the moment Ideveloped the English part,
(38:39):
because I went to talk withpeople from around the world.
I was really excited.
It was really stimulating.
I even say that sometimes I ammore extrovert speaking English
than Portuguese because I thinkit's more stimulating for me to
talk a different languagebecause it's like.
But then so I developed theseskills, right, I think it was
(39:02):
very important.
So I went to start an internshipin a company where I had the
international environment that Ilike and the technical part too
, because it was an engineeringrelated job, let's say.
But I think I had a lot ofdifficulties and challenges in
(39:23):
the corporate environment, a lotof difficulties and challenges
in the corporate environment.
At that time I already knewthat maybe I was not a good fit
for this environment, right, butI.
So I was thinking about maybegoing for to be a teacher,
because everybody who likes tostudy I think he liked the idea
of being a teacher is a wayright, or even a researcher,
(39:46):
right I think it would the ideaof being a teacher is a way
right, or even a researcher,right I think it would be even
more stimulating.
But I think here in Brazil,unfortunately, we don't have
much opportunities as aresearcher.
Actually, a researcher is notconsidered a job here.
Sometimes it's like you receivea scholarship, it's like
sometimes almost a minimalsalary for you to live, to study
(40:08):
.
So we don't have muchinvestment in our research, even
though we have gooduniversities, right.
So sometimes you, if you becomea researcher, you need your
parents to support you, forexample.
And what happens?
Most of us who goes, forexample, some colleagues who
went in this road.
They found opportunities abroad.
(40:30):
They will go to the UnitedStates, canada or even Europe.
They found the opportunities inthis and they go right.
And so this was a little one ofthe ideas, but it's two ideas,
many ideas.
But I don't know if the, theresearch would be a good fit,
because I had a underdiagnosedadhd, you know I needed to study
(40:53):
and I think I would haveproblems anyway.
So but I went to a corporate,uh, like internship, so, but I
think I think it's veryimportant when we arrive at this
kind of environment to knowyou're functioning, because
maybe we could adapt more,because I think it comes both
(41:14):
ways.
We would like to have theaccommodation parts from the
companies, the workplace.
I think we really need to talkabout the accommodations in the
workplace and I'm not sure howis this conversation in other
countries?
But what I feel is that somehowwe're gonna get in a moment
where we're gonna findaccommodation for autistic adhd
(41:36):
years maybe, but I don't see forgifted.
You know, I'm not sure, I don'tknow, I'm not sure if it's, but
I, I don't know, I would liketo.
If someone listening knowssomething that is going on
someplace in the world aboutthis.
I don't think it's going tohappen Because I don't know,
some environments don't makemuch sense, I think.
(41:58):
But what I think is good, whenyou know your function, maybe
you've developed the abilitiesto navigate your function.
Maybe you've developed theabilities to navigate, because
this is I think I saw a postsaying that in our case, because
the world is a chaos for uslike this, we need to develop
the abilities to navigate theworld.
This is our kind of our work todo.
(42:22):
So I think in there I had someproblems, for example with the
sensory problem, something, thewhite light.
That white light for me wasreally.
It's funny, I think people thatdon't have sensory issues don't
know what it is this.
Nadja (42:40):
No, they don't know, they cannot relate right.
Alíca (42:43):
It's so hard to explain why the noise is too loud, the
smell is, and even the clothesbecause you need to use certain
kinds of clothes sometimes,right, uh, sometimes you or, uh,
maybe you're social or even ina technical job, you need some
security clothes.
And I had these two sides ofthe me, my experience, and I
(43:05):
remember feeling very hot orsometimes very cold and and very
uncomfortable with the clothes.
Nadja (43:12):
It's funny because just now I understand the clothes
part this the clothes part forme, it's the shoes like for me
if I think about like it.
If you want to work like in areally like corporate setting
where you have to have like thewhole outfit, and then you have
to have these nice looking shoesfor women, and I'm like no, I
(43:32):
cannot.
Alíca (43:33):
I cannot either.
I cannot High heels, I don't.
I don't do high heels, highheels, I don't do high heels
Because it's the mostcomfortable thing ever.
So I really like to usesneakers all the time, for
example, or sandals in the hotweather.
It's really.
(43:53):
But I remember the sensoryproblem was something Stand
still right In like eight hours.
Sometimes you need to be backat the computer in eight hours
In a white light, a lot of noise, how okay.
Nadja (44:10):
So I think people understand people understand,
and I think what you did is youbecame self-employed, right
you're?
You're now an entrepreneur.
Do you want to quickly share alittle bit with what you do and
you can do some advertisement?
If somebody listening wouldneed your services, you can also
share and then we put also yourlink in the show notes so
(44:33):
people can contact you if theywant.
Alíca (44:35):
Yes, yes, so actually I became self-employed.
So my idea was, I think theonly way was to go self-employed
and work from home.
That time we didn't have thisreality of remote work, right?
So it was something a dream.
And because I really like tospeak English and I like to
(44:58):
teach, I became an Englishteacher.
So I became an English teacher,mostly for people who want to
develop the communication partof English.
It is important in Brazil, likeprofessionally speaking, and,
as I said, we don't have muchpeople who speak English.
(45:18):
So I have a kind of a mentorprogram to develop English
skills.
I use TED Talks to discuss, soit's very stimulating.
So, for example and actuallythe program can, anyone can do,
for example, you don't need tobe a Portuguese speaker to do,
(45:38):
because most of the people areactually intermediary and want
to develop the communicationpart.
So I think it's open for uh,other people too, and maybe
someone who's listening, whowants to develop.
I don't know, we never know andyou never know, you never know.
Yes, and I I'm trying to to uhto work with translation to
(46:01):
translation, transcription, andone of the things that I'm
trying to work on is maybebecome a translator that has the
specialty in the field ofneurodivergence and giftedness.
This would be my dream,actually.
So if anyone hearing, likeseeing my story, that how much
(46:23):
is important the content arrive,if this is important for your
business, if he's aligned withyour vision, right, I can help
with that, I would love to helpwith that because I think it's
very, very important thiscontent be accessible and the
books be accessible, and I hopesomehow to find my way in this.
(46:44):
Uh, this work too right.
So if anyone like I want this,I will give my contact right to
to you to contact me thank youso much for sharing and, yes,
maybe somebody wants their booktranslated into Portuguese.
Nadja (47:03):
We never know, you never know, hopefully, um, and yeah,
uh, is there anything else thatyou would like to share,
something that you think peopleshould know, something you wish
you knew earlier?
Alíca (47:18):
yeah, uh.
Well, I think.
First I want to to say that Ithink the work of the content
creators are really important,so the podcasters, everyone
who's talking about giftednessthe first thing I want to say is
very important.
So continue doing that.
(47:38):
And actually I think it isimportant to have a validation
about this from theprofessionals, from the people
around you.
So if you don't find in yourfamily or friends, search people
online to connect to talk about, and I think when you
(47:59):
understand your functioningbetter, life gets much easier,
even like professionally,relationship wise.
I would say that my lifetransformed tremendously in like
friendships, all therelationships changed.
I I really I think I'm a muchmore confident person because I
(48:20):
know this is me not.
We still need to develop theabilities to navigate, but never
navigate this world, becausenot easy is not easy for sure,
but at least we knowing we canhave these strategies, the
strategy even to find people.
I think this is what mostchanged my life.
I have these strategies theobservations to find other
(48:42):
gifted people, for example, andthis was really great for me the
observations to find othergifted people, for example, and
this was really great for me.
Nadja (48:54):
Oh, thank you so much for sharing and, yes, I can just
echo what you said, like thetransformation that comes after
you understand yourself betterand just understanding yourself
and understanding others and whyother people react differently,
and navigating, and now,looking back, I guess you know
why you didn't fit into thecorporate world.
(49:15):
All of this just gives you.
As Julie Skolnick says, withunderstanding comes calm.
This inner calm is really great.
So, thank you, alicia, forsharing and, yeah, thank you for
being here, for also respondingto my message and for being
(49:36):
generous and sharing your story.
So thank you so much.
Alíca (49:40):
Thank you.
I'm really glad that I canshare and contribute somehow to
the podcast or to the gifted ingeneral.
Thank you for the invitationtoo.
Bye, bye.
Nadja (49:55):
I hope you enjoyed this episode and you learned
something new.
And if you did, please like,subscribe and leave a review.
And if you feel like somebodyelse that you know could profit
from this, please send them alink to this show.
And if you want to learn more,you find everything at
giftedunleashedcom and you canalso subscribe to the newsletter
(50:17):
there, so you will always be upto date for new things that are
coming, and all the informationthat we mentioned today in the
episode will be on the shownotes for the episode.
So everything is right therefor you and, with that said, I
wish you a wonderful day and Isee you next time.
Bye.
Hello and welcome to Gifted Unleashed, where we talk
about the gifted and twice-exceptional brain and how it
affects our thinking andexperience of the world
differently.
There are a lot of stereotypesand stigma around the term
giftedness, and I'm here tochallenge those.
I'm here to raise awareness andto have a conversation around
the topic of what it means to bea gifted and twice exceptional
adult.
Common experience among giftedfolks is that they feel out of
(00:24):
place.
They don't quite fit in.
They're too sensitive, toointense, too emotional, too
overexcitable and too deepthinkers of the world and about
themselves.
So if you have been called toomuch of about anything, this
show is for you.
I'm Nadia.
I'm too loud, too colorful, toobubbly, too bossy and I love to
talk too much.
So welcome to my world.
I'm so happy you're here, toobossy and I love to talk too
(00:47):
much.
So welcome to my world.
I'm so happy you're here.
Hi everyone, it's been a longtime, but I'm so happy you're
here and we have another amazingepisode for you Today.
We have Alícia Couto on theshow and Alícia is joining us
from Brazil.
She is a twice- exceptionaladult, she has ADHD and she's
gifted, and she's going to tellus all about her journey, how
(01:07):
she found out, how she learnedthe vocabulary, how she went
about this and how it changedher life and what she's doing
today.
So I don't want to spill toomuch beforehand.
So, without further ado, here'sAlícia.
Alícia, I'm so excited you'rejoining me on my podcast today.
Alíca (01:27):
Yes, thank you for your invitation, Nadja.
As I said to you, I'm a really,really fan of your podcast, so
I'm pretty excited to be part ofthat.
Nadja (01:40):
Oh, thank you so much, Alícia.
And just for the listeners toknow, so we met on Instagram.
I reached out to you when I sawyou're following my profile and
then you were sharing with me alittle bit in the DMs your
story and I said, oh, thatsounds so amazing.
Would you like to share yourgifted story on the podcast?
(02:03):
So you're living in Brazil andso, yeah, we're having an
interview across the globe.
Yes, yes.
Alíca (02:12):
So I'm from Brazil, as you say, so I hope that I share
a little bit of my experiencefrom Latin America, right.
But just a comment that I wantto mention Brazil is a big
country, right, so I will sharehere my personal experience.
But of course, we have someprofessionals, who knows more?
(02:34):
We have some in Brazil.
But I think it is interesting,right to share a little bit
about my journey here.
Nadja (02:44):
Yes, exactly so.
Would you like to start withsharing a little bit your
journey?
You can start, you know, onceyou've discovered your
giftedness, or you can alsostart prior and what led to your
giftedness.
It's up to you how you wouldlike to share your story.
Alíca (03:13):
First, I will start with this story about how I
discovered the ADHD, right,because I think it's an
interesting story, because Ithink it says something about
how women are underdiagnosed.
You know, actually was becauseof my sister.
So my sister is already marriedand my brother-in-law?
He was diagnosed when he was akid.
So he knows since he was achild that he has ADHD, not that
(03:36):
he received the proper supportor accommodations, of course,
but at least he knew about itright.
So my sister, because she wantsto understand him better, you
know, like improve therelationship so she starts
researching.
So she entered in a hyper-focusmode Of course we didn't have
that language at that time soshe read a lot about it and then
(04:03):
she realized that actually shehad ADHD too.
So a lot of makes sense becauseshe had like some struggle when
she was a child, you know, likewith school and stuff, and a
lot of things made sense for her.
And then she got her diagnosedwith ADHD.
(04:23):
And then she came to me andsaid Alicia, I think you are too
, I think you have ADHD too.
And it took some time to acceptbecause I didn't feel like I was
, you know.
But she came to me because Ihave a sensory issue.
You know, like I always wasvery sensitive to flight noise
(04:47):
and everybody who knows me knowsthat right.
And she said that people withADHD has this thing too, and I
already thought in the past thatmaybe I was autistic, for
example, but I never went todiscover.
Of course, for example, when Idiscovered about introversion,
(05:08):
it helped me to understand alittle bit, but I don't think
explain everything right,because I think maybe it was too
much the sensitivity.
But I had a hard time to acceptbecause the point is and I think
this is interesting to talkabout because in my case I
didn't have problems with schoolwhen I was a child, right,
(05:33):
until my 18 years old, I didn'thave any problems.
I was actually really good, Ihave really great scores, right.
So for me it didn't make sensebecause I don't know how it is
in other countries but, forexample, here in Brazil, they
say that you need to present thesymptoms before you are 12
(05:54):
years old, and I think this isan important point to mention
because for gifted mostly,sometimes it's not the case.
For example, right or evenother ADHDers don't have this
experience and they think I amnot because I need to show right
, but it's not just because ofgrades right and score.
(06:16):
There's much more to talk.
So I had this resistance, butactually I start having problems
with school.
Let's say, when I enteredcollege.
I have a lot of problems incollege.
I took much more years tograduate, for example.
But I didn't think maybe it wasbecause of this.
(06:37):
I always thought it was maybemy fault.
You know, I was not workinghard enough.
It's not this, not this, it'snot it was, it was me, you know,
like, uh, I never thought thattime too, that maybe I had
something.
I always thought was me, youknow.
So she kept talking about it.
Always.
She come and bring this topicagain and again and I remember I
(07:02):
saw a TED Talk from.
I forgot her name, but it's agirl who has a YouTube channel
called how to ADHD that talksabout ADHD and her story was
really like mine, because shestarts struggle in college and
starts struggle with therelationships to the social part
(07:25):
of everything.
So I went and and and acceptand I got my diagnosis.
I went to the psychiatrist andgot my diagnosis and my when I
started the treatment.
I started treatment mainly withthe medication, but I didn't
have that time a therapistbecause of course I was
(07:46):
frustrated with therapists andhow old were you at the time
when you got your ADHD diagnosis?
was.
I was in the beginning of 2022.
I was 30 years old.
So I was 30 years old there,actually 31, sorry, 31, so it's
pretty recent.
Actually it's been two yearsthat I have the diagnosis and so
(08:11):
I started the treatment and mylife changed tremendously.
My work worked better.
At that time, I already wasself-employed and I was working
really hard on my business tomake things happen and just
putting effort, effort and nothaving much results as as like
(08:33):
equal the effort.
I was having results, but I wasputting a lot of effort and I
was not with much social life orfriends because my energy was
all to work, because work, youknow, is most important, right?
And after the treatment, when Istarted the treatment, things
(08:55):
got better.
I got more energy, because Ialways had a problem with energy
.
I was having already asituation with energy and
chronic pain too and somethinglike starts having like some
answers like the ADHD can be ananswer for this and so my energy
improved and my life startschanging.
(09:18):
But something was not quiteanswered.
Some things were not answered.
Some things were not answeredbecause sometimes I look at
people with ADHD, for example,my family right, my
brother-in-law and my sister, oreven people on the internet and
I didn't feel represented bythem, because, seeing that
(09:39):
something was off, because I sawthat I struggle with things
that they don't and theystruggle with things that they
don't and they struggle withthings that I don't like this so
something was and I still wantsome answers, and mostly my.
What I want some answers wasabout my social life,
(09:59):
interactions.
What was happening, the mydifficulty to connect with
people Because, for example,when I was in college, I worked
pretty hard in my social skills.
You know like I learned a lot.
I studied psychology, I evenstudied personality types, for
example, to understand peopleand what happened was that, of
(10:24):
course I I became good at this,but what I had was just
one-sided relationships right,because I was there.
Understanding people, and notnecessarily people, was back to
me, and I think this happens alot.
You try to fix yourself, butyou still feel unfulfilled with
(10:47):
the connections you have, and soI still was living this and I
thought, when I received theADHD diagnosis, I would correct
this, because I thought it wassomething about the sensory
problem.
That's why I could not interactmuch.
But I started analyzing myselfand reflect about what really
(11:10):
happened in each situation, forexample, the interaction that
was good for me and the onesthat was not.
What happened there, right, andI noticed that mostly the most
of the the time, it seems that Iwas not interested in some
conversation or I was notengaged or not paying attention,
(11:32):
but but these maybe actually uhfeel bad about myself.
You know, when I was therefeeling disengaged, um, because
I thought I me that is uhimpatient, like something like
that, and so I kept thinking.
I remember sharing with my, mypsychiatrist about it and he
(11:54):
brought the thing about theautistic uh possibility.
But we didn't search much.
But then I I found a short videoof a psychologist from brazil
and he he calls jean alessandro.
He was in a podcast and in theshort uh he explained was like a
(12:17):
cut right, a cut from a bigpodcast.
He explained the differencebetween a gifted ADHD and
anxious person.
So this video was shared in aFacebook group ADHD Facebook
group and when I saw that video,a lot of makes sense because he
(12:38):
explained the brain thinking,for example, and he talked about
some struggles right peopleface and he mentioned the book
of Paula Prober, that is, theReinforced Mind, right.
So I went straight to the bookand I read like I read really
(13:01):
fast, right, and actually Ialways say that what struck me
with reading that book is how mychallenges were all described
there and how she knows so muchabout me, because a lot of
things when she was explainingmade a lot of sense.
For example, the sensitivities,right, the ethics, how you care
(13:26):
about the word problems andsometimes you feel even naive,
right, because you care too much.
Um, so a lot of things, uh,made a lot of sense and so it
was really great to find herbook.
And just a comment about thispart of my my search right Is
(13:48):
because I'm actually talkingfrom a place that I'm I'm little
privileged to know English.
You know, because in Brazil Idon't know if all the listeners
know, but we speak Portuguese,right, but, like I even check
the statistics, actually just 5%of population know English and
(14:10):
just one percent is fluent.
It's like a really like areally small percentage of the
population that that knows.
So I'm coming from a placewhere I think that knowing
English was a really bigprivilege when I was searching
for knowledge, because what Ihave, what I leave, for example,
sometimes I want to share withsomeone the thing you know.
(14:33):
I think you're gifted.
But I have this problem of notbeing able to share good content
, like profound content, becausethe person sometimes doesn't
know English.
For example, I already had,like, I talked, for example,
with three people about it andone of these friends, she knows,
(14:54):
so she went deep and read thebook and listen to the podcast.
And there's another, she knowsEnglish, but she doesn't read
English.
You know like, ah, you're'regonna make me read a English,
english book.
I don't know if I can handle,like, and there was one that I
think was more, more sad for mebecause she didn't, she didn't
(15:17):
know, she don't know English,she doesn't know English, so I
could not share anything withher.
Because it's a lot of thejourney of self-discovery is you
, with your reflection, right?
You listen to stories, you readand you reflect about it?
It must be something that theperson do with themselves, right
(15:40):
?
So I read her book, right?
And I went to search, because Ihave this habit of listen
podcasts.
So I went to search, uh, her,on the podcast platform to find,
to see if she, uh she, she wasinterviewed somewhere and when,
(16:00):
when was.
And this way was when I foundyour podcast.
So it was really a great momentand since then, the podcast was
a great part of my journey andthis is that I want to say.
Like that, I'm really gratefulfor your work for other
podcasters Because of yourpodcast, for example, I found
(16:26):
the other podcasts that I reallyenjoy listening.
For example, from JenniferHarvin-Salling, there is
conversations about giftedtrauma, and Chris Wells from
Positive Disintegration I thinkis the top three that I most
listen and, of course, I alreadysee you there, they here, etc.
See you there, they hear, etc.
(16:46):
But your podcast made me knowother people that I was
discussing about and talkingabout and this was, I think,
very important, and mostlybecause I think it was something
about my self-discovery,because I was there, because
when you listen to a podcast,you're like a third person or
(17:08):
the fourth person in theconversation.
You are a little in theconversation, let's say this
experience.
So it was really great for meto listen to two or more gifted
women talking.
I think this was the mostimportant part for me.
I think this was very healingfor me, even because I was being
(17:29):
validated, I was beingunderstood a lot and people
sharing what I live is a reallywas a really important
experience for me.
And they say that listenpodcast is a way to co-regulate
in a way right, um, I was areally important experience for
me and they say that, right,that put like listen podcast is
a way to co-regulate in a waylike right, because you, you're
(17:51):
there sharing your experiencesand so I, I, I read, so I
continue reading and listening,and I went to to talk about my
suspicion, right, with theprofessional professionals that
was helping me.
That time I talked first with mypsychiatrist and I think this
was a good experience because mypsychiatrist is not normal.
(18:14):
Right, psychiatrists listen tous, but mine he listens.
I even will talk that.
I mentioned him here.
Maybe he's this.
I even will talk that.
I mentioned him here.
Maybe he is because.
So I share with him that I wasreading and listening to
podcasts and stuff and he said,oh, it makes sense.
(18:36):
So he validated my suspicionand he said that it was
important for me to get anevaluation, to know more about
it, right To be sure, right Tosee if there was something else,
because was still the suspicionabout the autistic possibility
was there yet.
(18:57):
So I think this was thepositive experience.
But at the same time I wasseeing a therapist not for long,
but when I found her, I said,oh, I have a diagnosis of ADHD.
I suspect that I am gifted.
Do you have any experience withgiftedness?
(19:19):
Right, because I want to knowthis?
And she said, yes, I have, anddid she, but I think, did she?
And she said, yes, I have, anddid she, but?
Nadja (19:26):
I think Did she and did she have experience?
Alíca (19:31):
And let's see.
I think what the experiencemaybe she has was just the most
stereotype experience that isknown, right, the physics genius
, you know, like Sheldon Cooper,right, I think everybody who
thinks about gifted think abouthim and again, I think this is
(19:53):
very important to say, he is aman, right?
So sometimes you can be likeexactly like him, the physicist
genius.
But if you are a woman, you'renot seeing like him, the
physicist genius.
But if you are a woman, you'renot.
You're not seeing like him.
Even a therapist that I, I sawher live.
She said that the gifted menare, I read, I perceived as
(20:17):
brilliant, and the, the giftedwoman, is perceived as difficult
to deal with.
So it's the one that createsproblems and I think this makes
much sense, but with thistherapist.
So I share my suspicion.
But of course I was a little, Iwas, with my expectations,
(20:39):
maybe not aligned, because I wasreading about
over-excilabilities and positivedisintegration and I want to
talk about it, of course, likewe all want, of course I want to
talk.
I was and I and I remember wasa moment that I read the book
Living with Intensity, where Ireally understood a little.
(21:00):
Of course I didn't read deeplyabout, but gave me a lot to
think already, a lot to process.
So I was having actually acatharsis because of this book,
of course, but I was okay, I wasactually happy, for I was
satisfied to having the answers,to have the understanding.
(21:22):
But I want to talk about rightand make sense.
But then she didn't receive well, this obsession about and
unfortunately, actually she waspregnant and she needed to go to
a maternity leave.
(21:42):
So we went we're gonna be in agap for a moment, so it wasn't
our last session and then shesaid things that was not not
nice because was reallyinvalidating, because she said
that just the, that maybe I wastoo obsessed, I was reading too
much, listen too much, and this,I think just this comment, is a
(22:05):
point to comment.
If you're dealing with a giftedperson, how you say that they
are reading too much, they'renot supposed to read this much,
how can you say this?
Um, so she said and but she,but I was thinking about get a
full evaluation anyway, but it'sexpensive.
(22:27):
I think everywhere in the worldis expensive.
So I I was postponing this, Iwas not sure to take or not, and
then she said that I wasreading too much, that I maybe
would forge the evaluation.
Nadja (22:43):
You would cheat the evaluation.
Alíca (22:46):
Evaluation as this would be possible.
I don't know if this would bepossible and this was very, very
complicated because of course,it was a very invalidating, very
like lonely moment and and shesaid, like that, maybe I was not
gifted, probably, but I wasautistic, not that this is a
(23:06):
problem, but I was invalidatedwith my suspicion about
giftedness, right, so okay, soof course I I listened to her
because I think this issomething that maybe gifted
people do, because we are, likethis, curious, so we search a
lot and not always well receivedbecause of this behavior, like
(23:30):
with specialists, but sometimesI really try to respect them,
try to respect them.
So, okay, I, even though Idon't, I don't, agree with you,
based when I think and I feelwhat I read, I will, uh, respect
your, your opinion, because youare the professional here.
So, I'm okay, I will, eventhough I don't, I disagree, but
(23:51):
you're okay, you're gonna.
You want to be treated as aspecialist.
You, you want my respect, it'sokay, I will take what you said,
even though she didn't say itin a good way, right, I have
reasons to not be hurt with thecomments, but so I went to get a
full evaluation.
(24:11):
I was really anxious.
I even did a lot of sessions inone week.
For example, I scheduled twosessions per week to have the
answer.
It was the end of 2022.
Nadja (24:26):
And may I ask the evaluation you got?
You were able to get it inBrazil itself, or did you do it
in English, or how did it work?
Where did you find support inthis regard?
Alíca (24:37):
Yeah, I was in Brazilzil.
Um, actually, in that thesemoments I already have found
some, some professionals inbrazil that talks about
giftedness and I search.
I found a psychologist and Istarted listening to her to see
what she was really saying, tosee if she was talking the same
giftedness I was, and I rememberI saw her page on Instagram and
(25:04):
I saw that she follows PaulaProber, for example.
She follows Paula Prober, shefollows conversations on gifted
trauma.
I think she knows she's yourperson.
Yes, she knows, so I talked toher.
Actually, I said that I wassearching for a therapist and an
evaluation and then she gave methe contact of the clinic that
(25:25):
I did.
It's actually in another city.
It's in the south, so it'sanother state.
So I'm from Sao Paulo state,but the clinic is in Paraná
state.
So I did online.
The clinic is in Parana state,so I did online.
Some psychologists say that wecannot do online, but it was a
good thing for me to do onlineand to have an answer.
But actually it was a fullneuropsychology test and we
(25:50):
thought about attention, memorytoo, not just the IQ.
We had the IQ part, but we hadthe emotional.
Let's say we talk about mystory, my struggles about
everything.
I remember answering a lot ofquestionnaires, I think it was
(26:10):
like eight sessions, and thepoint was, the thing I want to
discover, right is that, if Iwas gifted or not, if I was
really ADHD because some peoplesay, ah, sometimes you're not
ADHD, you're gifted but you getmisdiagnosed and if it made any
(26:33):
sense to be autistic too.
So I had this hypothesis to toher like a search, and what she
she discovered was I was gifted,yes, and adhd, but probably not
autistic in her point of view,you know.
And I think something isinteresting to mention this
evaluation, because I know thatwe try to talk about giftedness
(26:58):
outside IQ, right, because wehave other kinds of intelligence
and we have all this emotionalprofile that we present.
But what struck me in myevaluation that I actually am
the IQ gifted, you know, and Iwas feeling I feel a little of
(27:18):
course, uh, I don't know what toexpect, but I feel a little
neglected by the educationsystem because of it.
Was this maybe?
Was of course I was, you know,because I was the girl that was
really good in math.
You, you know, like I wasreally good in language, but I
(27:38):
think everybody sees me likethat I was a very dedicated,
very responsible girl.
That's why I got good grades.
I even received a comment froma teacher that I was not really
smart but, I, was very dedicated.
Nadja (27:58):
So more the high achiever type.
They thought you were the highachiever and I think you
mentioned something before westarted our recording that you
said there are two terms inPortuguese that kind of describe
the giftedness and more thehigh ability Right, Describe the
giftedness and more the highability right.
And so there's also adifference, I think, in the
(28:20):
language and which would youlike to explain a little bit
more.
Alíca (28:25):
Yeah, yes, yes, so in Brazil, nowadays, we have two
names for giftedness.
That is, altas habilidades,that is high abilities, in
translation, and another word islike super, super dotação,
right, I think this is the samewith spanish, you have some
(28:46):
relation.
So, actually, nowadays, theyaccept the two names and we even
have, uh, actually we have alaw, uh here about special
education.
That's uh, that's that havethese terms and everything,
because we have a lot toactually include, uh, like
children with disabilities,children with, uh, with gifted,
(29:08):
gifted children and autisticchildren, for example.
Actually all the schools, eventhe public schools, are kind of
obliged, obliged to have theaccommodations.
I think this law is from 2010,.
But I was already in college,right, and I know this too, and
(29:28):
the funny thing too is that mymother is a teacher and she did
the course to receive the giftedin their school, right, but I
was already in college and, ofcourse, we didn't have these
whole profiles, the emotionalprofile.
I don't think it was more aboutthe interest and even the
(29:49):
problems they create in class,for example, because of high
energy.
She says a lot about these kindof students, that they have a
high energy and creates problemsbecause of this, and sometimes
they are actually gifted, theyare really smart.
But so we have these two names,as I said.
But for example, there is a Ithink I don't, I'm not sure if
(30:10):
she she's a doctor, I thinkshe's a researcher that she
differentiates these two names.
That's saying that maybe highability is not a way to describe
, because high ability issomething you can develop right
If you put effort, like on this,and superdotação, right, is
something much more as broaderand we have the emotional
(30:35):
profile to like the historic ofthe person is a whole different
functioning.
And she even say that we shouldstop talking about super
dotação and start talking abouto super dotado, the person, not
just the, not they, just thegiftedness, but the gifted.
We need to talk about theindividual.
That is not because I thinkthink it's the same here in
(30:59):
Brazil than in other countries.
We talk about.
It's actually education thathas this knowledge and they
don't have the support for theemotional part of the gift, the
psychological part.
It's a lot about finding.
For example, my motherexplained that the course she
did was something like this tofind what they are interested in
(31:21):
and give them the resources,the accommodation to search for
these interests.
So they just observe the giftedand try to help, and, of course
, this changes according to theschool, according even to the
government, like the mayorsometimes change the investment
and they don't receive.
So it's not that because wehave the law that all gifted
(31:45):
people are receiving.
So I think so now, after mydiagnosis, I know now some
people who talks aboutgiftedness, like some
psychologists, researchers andthey really trying to find to
bring this agenda right Becauseit's something about health.
It's like even one, I think,said that it's actually an
(32:09):
emergency.
It's a health emergency, notjust mental health emergency.
Oh, wow, because we are talkingabout, like many children and
(32:31):
adults, right, oh, wow.
But I think one thing isimportant to mention is, even
though, as I said, I don't thinkall teachers have the training
to receive or all schools havethe resources to accommodate and
even the therapists receive thetraining to deal with the
children, the adults, still theadults not much like knowledge
(32:56):
and and conversation around this.
But I think I think is this thethe day start and after the
evaluation I got, I got finallythe answer right, um, so I think
was good to receive the answerto really like okay, now I
validate.
I even was talking to a friendabout this because she talks
(33:17):
that she discovered herself asgifted, but she didn't get the,
the evaluation because it wasexpensive.
She was not the, the math andthe math gifted, so maybe she
will not go good well in in theIQ.
And so we were talking aboutthis.
Sometimes it's not even maybe agood thing to get right,
(33:40):
because I think for me it wasbecause I have the validation
for the therapist, for thedoctor, for even the family show
.
Look, I'm different.
Okay, this is the point.
I know that here we have a lotof ADHDers because actually I
have two sisters, youngersisters, and then recently the
younger got the diagnosis ofADHD too, and it's funny because
(34:03):
she was the hyperactive girlyou know she got.
So we have an ADHD family, butgifted, I think the most.
The challenge of giftedness isme that maybe suffer most, so
that's why I have this answer.
Nadja (34:23):
So you could relate to some of your family, but you
could understand that there weresome differences between you
and your family.
Yeah, I have a similar story,which is also.
I believe most or some of myfamily has ADHD, whereas for me
the giftedness comes on top.
(34:44):
Um, but how did this alsoimpact your career?
I think you also through thewhole the multi-potential
Potentiality.
Alíca (34:55):
Yes, no, actually it affected a lot because actually
I chose to study engineering.
So I have a degree inelectrical engineering because I
was the math physics, the girlwho likes that.
But I also like languages.
I remember I like languages, Ilike to read, I even was good in
(35:18):
writing some some things.
So I went this.
But I, as I said, I have a lotof difficulties in college and I
think was mostly about the ADHD, but about the giftedness too,
because I was trying to find.
(35:38):
I remember sometimes I rememberthese moments in my story.
I think I was very naive, youknow, because I went to
engineering.
Really, my thinking, my feelingabout engineering is that we
solve problems, right, we arethe problem solvers, we create
systems to make life easier, butfor people, you know, for I
(36:03):
always had this, I had thisvision that we solve the
problems for the world or forthe people, and not for the
profit you know, like, like this.
So when I I discovered actuallywas all about the companies and
and I was I was always sofrustrated because I want to
talk with my colleagues aboutthe environmental problems, the
(36:27):
society problems, but I will.
I was with engineers.
So they always said to me,alicia, we should not worry
about this, just do do your work.
But I was having thisexistential crisis in my choice,
you know, because I reallythink we need to solve the
(36:48):
energy problem.
I will solve the energy problem, climate change so of course, I
got a little frustrated.
So I think I feel a littledisappointed with the degree
there.
But I continue studying andtrying to think that maybe I had
a role there to representsomething or bring the
(37:11):
conversation to the table.
But at the same time, I wastrying to do other projects,
like I uh, to develop differentskills, because I want to be the
, the engineer who has, like, uh, social skills.
You know, I was not.
I don't want to be the personwho doesn't know to talk, for
(37:32):
example, with people.
So I try to develop myself inthis and actually was a lot of
effort actually to develop somany parts of you right at the
same time.
But of course, we want this andI think these projects made me
develop some skills.
That actually now is moreimportant than my degree,
because I needed to learn how tocommunicate better.
(37:57):
I even like need to learn allthe soft skills.
I think the soft skills theEnglish was a part of this
because I was part oforganization that did a lot of
exchange between students.
So we bring students fromBrazil and we go some other
(38:17):
countries to do voluntary workmostly.
I actually went to do myexchange program in Malaysia
because I went to a reallydifferent country, a different
culture, because I think thiswould develop us better.
So that was the moment Ideveloped the English part,
(38:39):
because I went to talk withpeople from around the world.
I was really excited.
It was really stimulating.
I even say that sometimes I ammore extrovert speaking English
than Portuguese because I thinkit's more stimulating for me to
talk a different languagebecause it's like.
But then so I developed theseskills, right, I think it was
(39:02):
very important.
So I went to start an internshipin a company where I had the
international environment that Ilike and the technical part too
, because it was an engineeringrelated job, let's say.
But I think I had a lot ofdifficulties and challenges in
(39:23):
the corporate environment, a lotof difficulties and challenges
in the corporate environment.
At that time I already knewthat maybe I was not a good fit
for this environment, right, butI.
So I was thinking about maybegoing for to be a teacher,
because everybody who likes tostudy I think he liked the idea
of being a teacher is a wayright, or even a researcher,
(39:46):
right I think it would the ideaof being a teacher is a way
right, or even a researcher,right I think it would be even
more stimulating.
But I think here in Brazil,unfortunately, we don't have
much opportunities as aresearcher.
Actually, a researcher is notconsidered a job here.
Sometimes it's like you receivea scholarship, it's like
sometimes almost a minimalsalary for you to live, to study
(40:08):
.
So we don't have muchinvestment in our research, even
though we have gooduniversities, right.
So sometimes you, if you becomea researcher, you need your
parents to support you, forexample.
And what happens?
Most of us who goes, forexample, some colleagues who
went in this road.
They found opportunities abroad.
(40:30):
They will go to the UnitedStates, canada or even Europe.
They found the opportunities inthis and they go right.
And so this was a little one ofthe ideas, but it's two ideas,
many ideas.
But I don't know if the, theresearch would be a good fit,
because I had a underdiagnosedadhd, you know I needed to study
(40:53):
and I think I would haveproblems anyway.
So but I went to a corporate,uh, like internship, so, but I
think I think it's veryimportant when we arrive at this
kind of environment to knowyou're functioning, because
maybe we could adapt more,because I think it comes both
(41:14):
ways.
We would like to have theaccommodation parts from the
companies, the workplace.
I think we really need to talkabout the accommodations in the
workplace and I'm not sure howis this conversation in other
countries?
But what I feel is that somehowwe're gonna get in a moment
where we're gonna findaccommodation for autistic adhd
(41:36):
years maybe, but I don't see forgifted.
You know, I'm not sure, I don'tknow, I'm not sure if it's, but
I, I don't know, I would liketo.
If someone listening knowssomething that is going on
someplace in the world aboutthis.
I don't think it's going tohappen Because I don't know,
some environments don't makemuch sense, I think.
(41:58):
But what I think is good, whenyou know your function, maybe
you've developed the abilitiesto navigate your function.
Maybe you've developed theabilities to navigate, because
this is I think I saw a postsaying that in our case, because
the world is a chaos for uslike this, we need to develop
the abilities to navigate theworld.
This is our kind of our work todo.
(42:22):
So I think in there I had someproblems, for example with the
sensory problem, something, thewhite light.
That white light for me wasreally.
It's funny, I think people thatdon't have sensory issues don't
know what it is this.
Nadja (42:40):
No, they don't know, they cannot relate right.
Alíca (42:43):
It's so hard to explain why the noise is too loud, the
smell is, and even the clothesbecause you need to use certain
kinds of clothes sometimes,right, uh, sometimes you or, uh,
maybe you're social or even ina technical job, you need some
security clothes.
And I had these two sides ofthe me, my experience, and I
(43:05):
remember feeling very hot orsometimes very cold and and very
uncomfortable with the clothes.
Nadja (43:12):
It's funny because just now I understand the clothes
part this the clothes part forme, it's the shoes like for me
if I think about like it.
If you want to work like in areally like corporate setting
where you have to have like thewhole outfit, and then you have
to have these nice looking shoesfor women, and I'm like no, I
(43:32):
cannot.
Alíca (43:33):
I cannot either.
I cannot High heels, I don't.
I don't do high heels, highheels, I don't do high heels
Because it's the mostcomfortable thing ever.
So I really like to usesneakers all the time, for
example, or sandals in the hotweather.
It's really.
(43:53):
But I remember the sensoryproblem was something Stand
still right In like eight hours.
Sometimes you need to be backat the computer in eight hours
In a white light, a lot of noise, how okay.
Nadja (44:10):
So I think people understand people understand,
and I think what you did is youbecame self-employed, right
you're?
You're now an entrepreneur.
Do you want to quickly share alittle bit with what you do and
you can do some advertisement?
If somebody listening wouldneed your services, you can also
share and then we put also yourlink in the show notes so
(44:33):
people can contact you if theywant.
Alíca (44:35):
Yes, yes, so actually I became self-employed.
So my idea was, I think theonly way was to go self-employed
and work from home.
That time we didn't have thisreality of remote work, right?
So it was something a dream.
And because I really like tospeak English and I like to
(44:58):
teach, I became an Englishteacher.
So I became an English teacher,mostly for people who want to
develop the communication partof English.
It is important in Brazil, likeprofessionally speaking, and,
as I said, we don't have muchpeople who speak English.
(45:18):
So I have a kind of a mentorprogram to develop English
skills.
I use TED Talks to discuss, soit's very stimulating.
So, for example and actuallythe program can, anyone can do,
for example, you don't need tobe a Portuguese speaker to do,
(45:38):
because most of the people areactually intermediary and want
to develop the communicationpart.
So I think it's open for uh,other people too, and maybe
someone who's listening, whowants to develop.
I don't know, we never know andyou never know, you never know.
Yes, and I I'm trying to to uhto work with translation to
(46:01):
translation, transcription, andone of the things that I'm
trying to work on is maybebecome a translator that has the
specialty in the field ofneurodivergence and giftedness.
This would be my dream,actually.
So if anyone hearing, likeseeing my story, that how much
(46:23):
is important the content arrive,if this is important for your
business, if he's aligned withyour vision, right, I can help
with that, I would love to helpwith that because I think it's
very, very important thiscontent be accessible and the
books be accessible, and I hopesomehow to find my way in this.
(46:44):
Uh, this work too right.
So if anyone like I want this,I will give my contact right to
to you to contact me thank youso much for sharing and, yes,
maybe somebody wants their booktranslated into Portuguese.
Nadja (47:03):
We never know, you never know, hopefully, um, and yeah,
uh, is there anything else thatyou would like to share,
something that you think peopleshould know, something you wish
you knew earlier?
Alíca (47:18):
yeah, uh.
Well, I think.
First I want to to say that Ithink the work of the content
creators are really important,so the podcasters, everyone
who's talking about giftednessthe first thing I want to say is
very important.
So continue doing that.
(47:38):
And actually I think it isimportant to have a validation
about this from theprofessionals, from the people
around you.
So if you don't find in yourfamily or friends, search people
online to connect to talk about, and I think when you
(47:59):
understand your functioningbetter, life gets much easier,
even like professionally,relationship wise.
I would say that my lifetransformed tremendously in like
friendships, all therelationships changed.
I I really I think I'm a muchmore confident person because I
(48:20):
know this is me not.
We still need to develop theabilities to navigate, but never
navigate this world, becausenot easy is not easy for sure,
but at least we knowing we canhave these strategies, the
strategy even to find people.
I think this is what mostchanged my life.
I have these strategies theobservations to find other
(48:42):
gifted people, for example, andthis was really great for me the
observations to find othergifted people, for example, and
this was really great for me.
Nadja (48:54):
Oh, thank you so much for sharing and, yes, I can just
echo what you said, like thetransformation that comes after
you understand yourself betterand just understanding yourself
and understanding others and whyother people react differently,
and navigating, and now,looking back, I guess you know
why you didn't fit into thecorporate world.
(49:15):
All of this just gives you.
As Julie Skolnick says, withunderstanding comes calm.
This inner calm is really great.
So, thank you, alicia, forsharing and, yeah, thank you for
being here, for also respondingto my message and for being
(49:36):
generous and sharing your story.
So thank you so much.
Alíca (49:40):
Thank you.
I'm really glad that I canshare and contribute somehow to
the podcast or to the gifted ingeneral.
Thank you for the invitationtoo.
Bye, bye.
Nadja (49:55):
I hope you enjoyed this episode and you learned
something new.
And if you did, please like,subscribe and leave a review.
And if you feel like somebodyelse that you know could profit
from this, please send them alink to this show.
And if you want to learn more,you find everything at
giftedunleashedcom and you canalso subscribe to the newsletter
(50:17):
there, so you will always be upto date for new things that are
coming, and all the informationthat we mentioned today in the
episode will be on the shownotes for the episode.
So everything is right therefor you and, with that said, I
wish you a wonderful day and Isee you next time.
Bye.
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