February 7, 2024 • 48 mins
When Kaitlin Smith and I sat down to unravel the complex world of giftedness and twice-exceptionality (2e), our conversation ventured deep into the heart of what it means to be labeled 'gifted,' particularly for those navigating the dual challenges of exceptional intellect and being part of a minority. Kaitlin shares her battle against the stereotypes that sought to undermine her journey during her studies in psychotherapy. This episode promises to be a beacon for anyone who's felt too intense, too passionate, or simply too much for the mainstream narrative.
The path to self-empowerment is often obscured by the fog of cultural misconceptions. A moment of stark confrontation during Kaitlin's psychotherapeutic training brought the issues of race and identity to the forefront, leading to the creation of Our Wild Minds. This venture seeks to celebrate and uplift gifted and BIPOC adults. Our discussion peels back the layers of cultural competency, urging a move beyond broad-stroke assumptions to embrace the unique stories that shape every individual's experience. Join us as we confront these issues head-on, championing the rich interior lives of those who don't fit comfortably into society's predefined boxes (or dare I say stereotypes).
Our final thoughts cluster around the creation of sanctuaries for underrepresented voices, specifically black adults in the gifted community. Kaitlin shines a light on the Our Wild Minds Community and the Black Brilliant Circle, spaces designed to offer refuge and fellowship for gifted adults of color. Inspired by the work of Dr. Joy Lawson Davis and Dr. Donna Ford, these platforms offer twice-weekly calls, networking opportunities, and a guided journey to help members navigate giftedness and racial trauma. By sharing these stories and resources, we hope to offer a tapestry of support that recognizes the full spectrum of giftedness, fostering inclusive environments where intellectual and emotional growth can thrive.
https://www.ourwildminds.com/
Would you like to work with me 1:1 as your gifted and 2e coach? Please send me an email at hello@giftedunleashed.com or find more information about my coaching offer on my website giftedunleashed.com/coaching
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nadja Cereghetti (00:02):
Hello and welcome to Gifted Unleashed,
where we talk about the giftedand twice- exceptional brain and
how it affects our thinking andexperience of the world
differently.
There are a lot of stereotypesand stigma around the term
giftedness and I'm here tochallenge those.
I'm here to raise awareness andto have a conversation around
the topic of what it means to bea gifted and 2e adult.
Common experience among giftedfolks is that they feel out of
(00:26):
place.
They don't quite fit in.
They are too sensitive, toointense, too emotional, too
overexcitable and too deepthinkers about the world and
about themselves.
So if you have been called toomuch of about anything, then
this show is for you.
My name is Nadja.
I'm too loud, too colorful, toobubbly, too bossy and I love to
talk too much.
So welcome to my world and I'mso happy you're here.
(00:50):
Welcome to another episode ofGifted Unleashed, the podcast
for gifted and twice-exceptional adults.
Today we have Kaitlin Smith onthe podcast, and Kaitlin and I
we met during a course ofintergifted offered by Jennifer
Harvey Salin, and you know, ifyou've listened to the podcast
in the past, I'm a huge fan ofJen and Jen is a big part why
(01:12):
this podcast is off the ground.
So Jen offered a course andKaitlin and I were part of the
course and stayed in contact andeven met at Seng in the summer,
and this podcast episode hasbeen long in the making.
So pleased that Kaitlin and Ifinally got a chance to sit
together virtually and have aconversation what she does in
(01:36):
the gifted space and what sheoffers, and that's what we're
going to talk about today.
Welcome, Kaitlin, I'm so excitedto have you on the podcast.
I'm excited to do that and ithas been such a long time in the
making.
We've been talking in thebackground I think we've met
over a year ago probably, andwe've met in the summer, but we
(02:01):
didn't really have time to speakin depth.
So actually I'm excited for youto be on this show today so we
can talk a little bit moretogether in private and for the
public and, yeah, get to knoweach other and I'm really
excited to hear more about you.
Thank you so much.
Kaitlin Smith (02:19):
I'm so excited to be here and chat more with you.
Nadja Cereghetti (02:22):
I just want to start by listening to your
gifted story.
I feel like every gifted personhas a gifted story.
How did they uncover this topicand how did they learn about
this?
Why it's important in theirlife, and, I think, especially
people working in this space.
That usually gives them theirwhy and I think that's very
(02:44):
interesting to hear.
Would you like?
Kaitlin Smith (02:47):
to share.
Yeah, absolutely, I appreciatethe question Well, I guess I
should begin when I was inelementary school.
I was fortunate in a lot ofways in that I was identified as
gifted when I was very young.
I had the opportunity to beginMontessori school when I was
(03:08):
very young, a little bit youngerthan I think is typical in the
states.
In the United States where Ilive, I was two years old when I
started and just about to turnthree, and there were some
changes that happened in myfamily around where we were
going to live.
We were planning to move to onecommunity and then needed to
(03:30):
sort of switch gears last minuteand, as a result, the school
that I was going to go toanother Montessori school ended
up not being the school that Icould continue at indefinitely,
and so I suddenly needed to kindof switch gears into attending
a conventional school, and thatled to some challenges because I
(03:50):
, prior to that, been learningin a mixed age environment in a
Montessori school where therewas a lot of latitude and room
for me to pursue morechallenging work or in certain
areas, and to make a long storyshort, I ended up being advanced
a year and I guess in thecourse of that process in the
(04:13):
more conventional school, publicschool and in the course of
that process I ended up beingtested for the talented and
gifted program that was offeredin my school district and then
ended up participating in thatprogramming.
So I think that may have beenthe first time that I explicitly
received the gifted label in myeducational journey, but
(04:38):
strangely, I think that Ilargely forgot about it in a way
, or I forgot about that label,and I think that in general,
when I was told that I'm giftedor that this framework or this
label might relate to me and mylife in some way, I think it was
really framed as something thatwas solely about my academic
(04:59):
performance and that it didn'tnecessarily have anything to do
with other dimensions of me thatwould sort of endure into my
adult life.
And I think that, after havingsome of those early experiences,
it wasn't until many yearslater that I found myself
returning to these themes.
I would say that a majorwatershed moment for me came
(05:23):
when I was training as apsychotherapist, about 10 years
ago now, and I, in short,received some critical feedback
from some of the people I wasworking with and training with.
I can maybe elaborate more onthis later in our conversation.
But I received some.
I had some really challengingexperiences during that time in
(05:44):
which some of these individuals,one in particular, told me that
I was way too intellectual tobe a therapist first of all,
which I think is disconcertingon a number of levels.
I think there's a lot to unpackthere, but in addition, there
was also this notion that I wasalso somehow too intellectual to
(06:05):
be an emotionally healthy andauthentic black woman and
there's a lot to unpack there aswell.
And anyway, that was absolutelya watershed moment for me that
got me thinking more aboutwhat's going on here.
And I would say that in theyears that followed those
(06:27):
experiences, I had otherexperiences that again prompted
me to think about this conceptof giftedness and that included
some personal relationships thatI had, like a particular
romantic relationship, and someof the dynamics that developed
between me and that person ledme to think more deeply about
what is it about?
(06:48):
The way that I operate and theway that my mind works.
That feels like a departurefrom the ways that a lot of
other people around me operate.
So those experiences were amongthe experiences that got me
thinking more deeply about adultgiftedness and that it's not
merely an academic label.
There's a lot more that I couldsay about this, but I want to
(07:10):
pause and have a conversation.
Nadja Cereghetti (07:13):
Yeah, there's so much right.
We have so much to share.
I want to ask you right herewhere did you make this
connection between thisgiftedness and I guess first it
was about the intellectual andthen you realize there's more to
it than the intellectual.
Is that where this wholeprocess went, or did they train
(07:34):
you on giftedness in the program?
Kaitlin Smith (07:37):
No, Definitely not.
I think it would be wonderfulif this knowledge was shared
more in the course of training.
I should also note that themental health field in which I
trained was clinical social work.
So in my experience and perhapsthis is changing and I just
(07:59):
haven't caught wind of it but mysense is that discussion around
intelligence has notnecessarily been foregrounded in
that area of the mental healthfield.
I do know that for some peoplewho train a psychologist, they
may learn more aboutintelligence testing and
(08:19):
different forms of intelligence,but so I'll kind of leave it to
people who have trained apsychologist to speak to that.
But in the clinical social workfield it was definitely not
something that we were talkingabout at all, and for me it was
just striking that amongst thepeople I was interfacing with in
the course of my trainingprocess, there didn't seem to be
(08:41):
a ton of curiosity around thedifferent ways in which people
may move through the world,where I guess their mental
proclivities are concerned, andnot just around their traumas
and their personalities, butalso where people's intensity,
complexity and drive may beconcentrated and how those
(09:05):
things manifest differently indifferent individuals.
I feel that there was notperhaps enough conversation
around those topics at that time, yeah, so that felt like a
missing piece for me, and Iended up going on a journey to
learn more about it.
Nadja Cereghetti (09:23):
I love how you call it a journey.
I call it a rabbit hole oh,amazing.
And so, basically, you startedthis journey for yourself and
probably realized you knowyou're not the only one and
there's something that you needto bring into the world.
And so do you want to share alittle bit more about this
(09:47):
journey and speak more about,you know, these key interactions
that you had and what what shedlight on onto that?
Kaitlin Smith (09:55):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for asking.
I think that that particularwatershed moment that I
identified earlier, that Iexperienced during my
psychotherapeutic training, wasa big one for me.
There's so much to unpackrelated to that experience, but
I think that for me one of thethings that was most striking
(10:16):
was just this, this basic notionthat somehow I, from the
vantage point of this particularindividual, who was a white
woman, who I don't actuallybelieve that she was a therapist
, but she had produced doctorallevel research on psychology and
(10:37):
was teaching and mentoringpeople in the context of my
master's level training programand just the sheer notion that
my intellectualism had to bepathological because in her
estimation or in her imagination, when a black woman is being
truly herself, she doesn't showup that way and therefore there
(10:58):
must be some sort of underlyingdeception at the heart of my way
of being.
That was just incrediblydifficult to, not just to hear
like it was very traumatizingand difficult, but it was also.
It was so challenging torespond to you because this
person truly believed that shewas just right.
(11:20):
She was just so right aboutthis and that her opinion
couldn't be challenged and shewas also in a in a position in
this institution like tenuredand just had a level of
seniority that made thesituation really intimidating
for me.
One one part of the story that Ihaven't shared yet is that this
(11:42):
person also then went so far asto tell me that if I couldn't
align my way of being with amore authentic personality or
like way of responding to theworld, ie being more angry from
her perspective.
She felt that I wasn't beingangry enough and wasn't being
loud enough and wasn't justshowing up in ways that she
(12:04):
thought I ought to be based on astereotypical understanding of
what a black woman does.
This person literally told methat she wouldn't feel
comfortable allowing me tograduate with a master's degree
that I was working toward atthat time If I couldn't adopt
this correct persona in herimagination.
And yeah, because I guess, fromher perspective, when you're
(12:28):
becoming a therapist, you're theinstrument and you need to be
finally tuned in order to attuneto your patients and show up
appropriately and I think, onsome sort of basic level, I
think that makes sense.
I think that at least embarkingupon a journey where you learn
to observe your own reactionsand assumptions is really,
(12:48):
really important, and I thinkthat's true of coaches as well,
even people who aren'ttherapists.
But this was the situation inwhich I think it was really
clear that her basic assumptionsabout the world and who black
people and black women inparticular are in that world and
must be in that world and, byextension, me couldn't really be
(13:09):
disentangled from that trainingprocess and her responsibility
as the person training me and asan experience.
It just brought into focus somany questions, some of them
personal, but also just otherquestions about what are the
ways in which these dynamics areplaying out across our society
(13:29):
and world and what are the waysin which people are being
manipulated and gas lit.
What are the ways in whichpeople are being urged in one
manner or another to abandonedthemselves and bullied out of
knowing what they know abouttheir lives?
(13:50):
Anyway, after having theseexperiences and others, I
embarked upon a journey to thinkmore deeply about the role that
giftedness has continued tohave in my adult life and the
places where it's intersectedwith other dimensions of my
social identity, so as a blackperson and as a woman in
(14:13):
particular, and that eventuallyled to me starting a business
called Our Wild Minds, whichmaybe we'll chat a bit about
more later, but through thisbusiness I am focused on
supporting BIPOC and adults sothat's a black indigenous and
people of color in befriendingand operationalizing their
(14:35):
natural gifts, which isabsolutely something that I'm
still continuing to you know, todo and learn about.
So I'm not positioning myselfas some sort of supreme
authority or somethingridiculous like that, but I
think that that reallychallenging and awful experience
that I had really initiated meinto this path of learning and
(14:56):
development and I've been reallyexcited to invite other people
into that so we can learn fromone another and help one another
achieve our goals in the worldon our own terms.
Nadja Cereghetti (15:06):
Oh, and congratulations on your business
and I love, love, love the nameOur Wild Minds.
It's amazing.
Thank you so much.
So much goes through my headright now.
You know, like people, I thinkmaybe this person even thought
(15:26):
she had your best interests atheart.
Why didn't you even do a helpyou or something, I don't know,
and so offensive?
Yeah, I think you're right.
Just forcing you to mask,pretend to be somebody you're
not and just living up toprejudice and stereotypes?
(15:46):
Yes, I may.
Kaitlin Smith (15:49):
Something, something I'd love to just
quickly say to Rith on what youjust said about this person
potentially having positiveintent, as she was offering
these unsolicited perspectivesto me, and this prompts me to
think about the framework ofcultural competency.
That's a framework that you'veencountered very much in your
career.
(16:10):
No, please share more.
Here in the States there's alot of conversation about the
concept of cultural competency,which is a framework that is
often used in the mental healthfield and in other fields as
well, I think in the educationfield too but it's a framework
that's often used whenprofessionals are being trained
(16:31):
in a particular field ormodality, and it's all about
sort of helping people cultivatethe capacity to engage across
difference and engage withpeople whose identities might
their social identities mightdiverge from their own.
So that can be around race,ethnicity, gender, sexual
orientation, gender identity,religion, class, all kinds of
(16:57):
areas.
And in the mental health field,when I was training as a
psychotherapist anyway, therewas definitely an emphasis on
cultivating cultural competencyand at the same time, there was
also a lot of criticism frompeople who were suggesting what
does it mean that we'reencouraging people to believe
(17:17):
that you can somehow just masterwhat it means to engage with
people from a particular groupas though people don't have
interiority and also as thoughthere are certain traits that
you ought to be looking for inyour dealings with people who
hail from a particular group.
So I think there's a lot ofcomplexity there and a lot to
(17:37):
unpack, but I think that, withthis particular individual I was
describing earlier, who wastraining me, I think that one
way to conceptualize what mayhave been going on there was
that she had really clung ontothis really narrow understanding
(17:58):
of what a black person is and,instead of really making herself
open to or opening up to what Iwas telling her about my
experience and my priorities andmy values, she insisted upon
this narrow understanding inwhich she kind of preserved
herself as the expert and wasn'topen to having her worldview
(18:22):
challenged or offended by herexperience with me, that
relationship.
So, yeah, I think that's.
There's an opportunity therefor people who may be thinking
you were listening.
How do I not fall into thesetraps?
I think maybe one tool or onetakeaway is to be open to what
you learn in the moment in yourdealings with people who are
(18:44):
maybe caling from a differentbackground, instead of clinging
to some sort of ideology or likestatic conception of what women
are like or what people of aparticular group are like.
Nadja Cereghetti (18:57):
Yeah, definitely.
Thank you for sharing and alsoeducating me.
What I encountered or what Isaw coming into this gifted
space is, or what I didn't see,is a lot of black women, and I
(19:18):
wonder why that is, and I havemy own theories, but I don't
know if that's something youhave also thought about or is
that something that I observedcorrectly?
Kaitlin Smith (19:31):
Yeah, let's see.
Bye.
I have a bunch of thoughtsgoing through my head right now.
I apologize.
I think that when I first kindof re-entered the I guess the
world of gifted people who areconnected around the world and
the specialty people who supportgifted adults, I had a very
(19:52):
similar reaction.
I thought, oh, I'm notencountering other black people
in this space who are kind ofleading and supporting others or
creating containers for others.
So that struck me as a missedopportunity that I've been
inspired to respond to throughmy business.
But as I've delved deeper, I'vebeen really excited by the
(20:16):
incredible work that variousblack women leaders in the field
of gifted education have doneand the kind of foundational,
incredibly important work thatthey've laid.
Dr Joy Lawson Davis is one ofthose people.
She's here in the States, she'swritten a number of books and
is just such an inspiring andlovely person.
(20:39):
And then there's also Dr DonnaFord, who has also been a
pathbreaking voice in the fieldof gifted education, and both of
them have really illuminated somany issues related to gifted
education for youth of color.
I feel like I've gained so muchfrom engaging with their work
that I've been able to thinkwith as I explore ways in which
(21:04):
we can create more networks ofsupport for gifted adults who
are part of communities of color.
Yeah, so the way I'm thinkingabout it right now is that there
are a lot of opportunities toport some of those insights from
the gifted education world overinto adult life, and my sense
is that there's also a lot ofroom to just continue building
(21:25):
upon work that's already beendone and create new resources
too.
So it's exciting to be part ofthis, and I think there's a lot
of opportunity for people toplug in who are interested in
these conversations.
Nadja Cereghetti (21:37):
Oh, thank you for sharing also your resources
and for being that person youknow to trail, blaze and create
this community for black womenand people of color.
Kaitlin Smith (21:50):
Thank you and I feel so grateful as well,
because it's quite clear to methat I'm standing on the
shoulders of so many peopledefinitely the two women I just
mentioned and a number of otherpeople too.
This is just one specificexample, but I'm currently a PhD
student at Harvard, and when Ifirst started I was searching
(22:14):
the campus high and low for somesort of bust or statue
dedicated to WEB Du Bois, whowas the first black graduate.
I was so excited to finallylocate a bust of him in the
Department of African andAfrican American Studies, and he
was someone who many, many,many years ago was talking about
(22:37):
these issues.
He wasn't necessarily talkingabout it through the prism of
giftedness per se, but he wasexposing these fundamental
questions about how theintelligence of black people was
being imagined, and he was in aposition where a lot of people
wouldn't listen to what he hadto say, but he nevertheless kind
of made himself into an exampleand has just left a lot of
(23:02):
opportunities in his wake thatdidn't exist before.
So all of that to say that I'mgrateful to be able to stand on
the shoulders of so many giantsand figure out how I can
contribute.
Nadja Cereghetti (23:15):
Thank you so much, Kaitlin, for sharing all
of your insights, and let's justtalk a little bit more about
what you offer for the giftedwomen in this space, like why
reach out to you if you're agifted and black person and join
your program?
Kaitlin Smith (23:33):
Yeah, thank you, let's see.
Well, right now I have twoofferings.
Probably that pool will expandin the future.
But I have an online communitythat I've started called Our
Wild Minds Community, and in thefuture I hope that we'll be
able to kind of carve out spacefor additional communities of
(23:55):
color.
But we're starting just withblack gifted adults, and this is
a space that people can come tomeet new friends, new contacts,
professional contacts and justsort of get support in various
areas of their life, rangingfrom personal to professional.
So this is a great way forpeople to sort of get to know me
(24:19):
and the kind of work that I do.
And we offer twice weeklycommunity calls at this point,
which is just an opportunity forpeople to be in a conversation
around a central theme and thethemes vary by month over the
course of the year, but it's anopportunity for people to forge
new connections each time.
And there's also a robustonline community where people
(24:43):
can meet people both across theworld and close to them, and
there's also an area wherepeople can kind of explore
different ways.
That giftedness has beenunderstood as a concept, because
I know that people often comeinto this gifted adult world or
industry feeling kind of likewhat is all of this?
(25:05):
Some of this resonates with meand some of it really doesn't
resonate with me.
So I wanted to create kind oflike a journey that people can
follow as they enter thecommunity.
That can help them thinkthrough what giftedness means to
them and also what their goalsare in the context of the
community.
Something else I should mentionabout the community is that
(25:26):
there are kind of fivecomponents to the journey
through the community that I'moffering.
The first is focused onintrospection, so that involves
moving through the foundation'sworkbook that I was just sort of
describing, which is all aboutexploring one's relationship to
giftedness and kind of taking aninventory of one's strengths
(25:49):
and also areas in which one mayfind vulnerabilities and may
want to grow, and sort of usingthat as a template to navigate
the community, because there areso many different areas to plug
in and explore.
The second component of thecommunity is focused on
connection, so I mentioned thecommunity calls, which are
(26:11):
currently happening twicemonthly.
We also are going to have someaffinity groups forming, so
opportunities for people toconnect with people who have
other identities that aresimilar to theirs, such as LGBTQ
people and people who live inparticular regions of the world,
so I'm hopeful that that willexpand more over time.
(26:32):
And then there areopportunities for asynchronous
communication via the onlineforum.
And then the third area of thecommunity is focused on learning
.
So there's a resource librarywhere people can tap into
various books and other mediathat other members have elevated
as useful to them.
(26:53):
And there's also an area wherepeople can find study buddies.
So maybe people are reallypassionate about a particular
topic or they're enthusiasticabout exploring a particular
thing, even entirelyindependently, and there's room
for people to identify whatthey're exploring and connect
with others who they want tocheck in with them about those
(27:16):
topics or engage in some sort oflearning journey together.
And then there's also anopportunity for all of the
community members to gainpriority access to any online
courses that are offered withinour wild minds and I'll circle
back to that point in just amoment.
The fourth area of the communitythat people can choose to
(27:37):
engage with is focused onmanifestation, so kind of
bringing one's visions into theworld.
So there's an area where peoplecan articulate their goals and
find accountability buddies.
I hope that in the future wecan carve out greater structure
for people to gather and kind ofhold one another accountable,
but to start, we're just goingto have accountability buddies
(28:00):
and I'm excited to see where wecan go with that.
There are also areas wherepeople can network with other
people in their particularindustries.
So, yeah, people can make newconnections.
And there are alsoopportunities for people who are
career changers and want toexplore a particular arena, to
connect with someone who hasmore experience and maybe set up
(28:22):
an informational interview andrelated to that, there's also a
mentor matching area, wherepeople can indicate that they're
seeking a mentor in aparticular arena or that they
are seeking a mentee in aparticular arena, and people are
invited to express that they'reseeking both at the same time.
Maybe they would love to findsomeone who can help them find
(28:43):
their way in this one arena, butthey would also love the
support of someone in another,and they can do those things
simultaneously.
And this notion of seeking amentee or someone to sort of
support, maybe coming up behindyou or alongside you, is
connected to the fifth and finalcomponent of this community
journey, which is focused ongiving back.
(29:05):
So that includes connecting withpeople, supporting people as a
mentor in some regard, andthere's also an opportunity to
get involved with social impactprojects, and one of the ways
that I'm really excited toexplore this in the context of
the community is by havinghackathons, where we sort of
carve out a weekend.
(29:27):
I don't know just yet what theregularity of these events will
be.
I'm kind of waiting to see howpeople feel about it and what
the feedback is, but I'm reallyexcited to have kind of like a
hackathon weekend where peopleget together on Zoom from all
over the world and split up intoteams and have a central
challenge or question that facesour community or people like us
(29:50):
around the world, or some othersocial question or social issue
that is important to people,that people have maybe voted on.
And then the teams kind ofdevise some sort of creative
response to whatever the issueis and creates something,
whether it's a prototype for anapp or a piece of artwork or an
(30:12):
idea for a program and how theywould implement it.
And then we come together andshare our learnings, share our
findings, and I'm envisioningthis as a meaningful way for
people to forge newrelationships, friendships and
professional relationships andalso generate actionable ideas
that we can then potentiallydecide to act upon as a
(30:33):
community.
So those are the initialofferings that are planned for
the community, but I'm excitedto see what I learn and what
people are most excited about aswe iterate on the platform.
Nadja Cereghetti (30:46):
This sounds amazing and I have already a few
people I'm going to send yourway and I hope they bite.
And I hope because I feel likethese women are exactly the type
of women that could use andoffer support and like be,
exactly, you know, engaging inthis community.
It's wonderful.
Kaitlin Smith (31:07):
Can I just like to clarify something?
This community is actually forpeople of all genders, just to
be clear.
So I'm starting with peopleadults who identify as black and
gifted, and it may be that inthe future, there could be other
areas of this community thatserve other communities of color
(31:28):
.
That's something that I wouldlove to offer in the future, but
I'm not there yet, so this iswhat I'm offering right now.
Nadja Cereghetti (31:37):
So many thoughts and I think I know the
answer.
But I want to hear it from you.
If I tell you know my friendwho fits your profile for your
community to go and join, butshe doesn't have an official
gifted diagnosis, never been togifted school, I believe she
might be the perfect candidate.
(31:58):
Does she need to prove she'sgifted or how can she enter?
Kaitlin Smith (32:03):
Yeah, thank you so much for asking that question
.
That's such an importantquestion.
No, how should I respond tothis succinctly?
There's so much to say on thistopic, but in a nutshell, no, I
want to welcome in anyone whoresonates with this concept and
(32:23):
sees themselves in it.
And I think that if someonejoins and they begin connecting
with people and with theresources that are there and
feels like, oh, maybe this isn'tthe right fit, or maybe this
would be the right fit If thisother dimension was included, I
would love to receive thatfeedback and, you know, have a
conversation about it and seewhat kind of support they're
(32:44):
looking for, what kind ofsupport they need.
And if someone decides, oh, thisisn't for me, then that's fine.
But I'm not remotely interestedin attempting to tell other
people who is gifted and who'snot.
I've been in spaces before inwhich I witnessed that dynamic
and it really rubs me the wrongway.
I think that intelligence is amysterious and multi-dimensional
(33:08):
and expansive thing and I don'tthink anyone should have the
last word on it.
So I yeah, I'm not on boardwith people who operate in those
ways.
Yeah, I think that anyone whoreads my writing or has engaged
with other materials related toadult giftedness and they
(33:30):
resonate with it.
They should feel welcome toparticipate.
I'm also realizing, Nadja, thatI didn't talk about the online
course that I created, which Ithink you asked me about, but I
didn't mention it.
Nadja Cereghetti (33:44):
Please tell us more about your course, okay.
Kaitlin Smith (33:47):
Yeah, so I created an online course called
Black Brilliant Circle and it isa six month journey through
kind of what it is to be agifted black adult that engages
mind, body and heart or that'show I've envisioned it and I
just recently wrapped up theinitial run of the course and
(34:08):
had a great time and learned somuch from my participants and I
can't wait to offer it again infall of 2024.
So I'll be circulating moreinformation about that as that
date approaches.
But, in short, that courseoffered participants an
opportunity to engage with agroup of peers from all over the
(34:30):
world Half were from the UnitedStates and the other half were
from other parts of the worldand we met twice monthly for six
months and we're able to goreally deep into a lot of
material, and one of the keythemes that we explored, among
many, is the intersection ofracial trauma and gifted trauma,
and I can say if you'd like tohear more and I want to be
(34:54):
cognizant of your time- Pleasego.
Nadja Cereghetti (34:57):
I really want to hear more and I think it's
very important to talk aboutthis.
Kaitlin Smith (35:03):
Yeah, yeah, I know that there's some people in
the gifted field who talk aboutthe issue of gifted trauma,
like Jennifer Harvey Salin, forexample.
We both know, and one of theelements that I've wanted to
contribute to the conversationin the gifted field that serves
gifted adults is thecontribution of racial trauma
(35:23):
and racism to the experiences ofmembers of minoritized
populations, like racialminorities, and I know that the
story that I shared earlierabout being framed as too
intellectual to be an authenticblack woman is one example that
I think kind of brings this,this idea, to life, where
(35:45):
there's the gifted element,where the person is encountering
something that seems alien andother to them in the manner that
I communicate and think andwhat have you.
But then there's also thiselement of you know you're black
and therefore all black peoplesupposedly are a certain way, or
(36:08):
to see a black person who's atonce highly intellectual and and
black, and I think that seemscontradictory about that in a
lot of people's imaginations andI think that that that dynamic
it can be immensely traumatizingfor a lot of people.
So the story that I shared wasjust one example of that, but I
(36:30):
think another specific issuethat came up in conversation in
the context of the BlackBrilliant Circle course was just
all of the violence againstblack people around the world
and the pervasiveness ofanti-blackness in general, and
(36:52):
just how challenging it is tolive in the midst of those
dynamics and also be someone whofeels very deeply and processes
your experiences in the worlddeeply.
And I think, depending onsomeone's unique constellation
(37:14):
of intelligences, theiremotional reactions may be
particularly strong and somepeople exhibit quite a lot of
intensity in the area ofexistential intelligence.
And that combination of forcescan lead some people in
directions that are just reallyhard to get out of and to just
(37:35):
sort of endure, because it's notenough to just imagine that
well, you know, we're just goingto think happy thoughts and
everything will be better,because we don't live in that
world, unfortunately.
So this course offered a spacein which we had an opportunity
to discuss some of thosetensions and realities, while
(37:56):
also exploring and envisioning,you know, the kinds of people we
can become in the world we haveand the ways in which we can
contribute to reshaping theworld within our own spheres of
influence, such that more blackbrilliance can flourish in
authentic ways.
So in many ways it was a coursethat offered more of an
(38:17):
invitation to ongoing learningand development for all of the
participants, but I had a greattime and I'm looking forward to
welcoming the next group ofpeople.
Nadja Cereghetti (38:26):
Wow, thank you for sharing and I think, yeah,
a space highly needed,especially in the current times
that we're living in, and I knowthe political space also in the
US currently.
Yeah, thank you.
I can just say thank you forwhat you're doing and I hope my
(38:49):
podcast gets out to the peoplewho need to hear this and who
need your gifted brilliantcircle and join and your
community.
It sounds amazing and like awonderful safe space.
Kaitlin Smith (39:04):
Thank you so much .
Nadja Cereghetti (39:06):
So if somebody wants to join, where can they
find you?
Kaitlin Smith (39:11):
Yeah, the best place to go is my website, which
is our wild minds.
com, and that first word is ourlike.
O U R.
Nadja Cereghetti (39:23):
And I will put all the links in the show notes
.
Also your social media sopeople can follow and just click
and see what you're doing.
Wonderful.
A few last words.
Is there anything you wouldlike to share or anything that
you wish you knew earlier,something you just want people
to know?
Kaitlin Smith (39:43):
Oh man, I love that question.
So many thoughts are runningthrough my head.
I'm trying to avoid offering ananswer that feels cliche, but
what's honestly coming to mindis just about the importance of
being yourself.
Yeah, it sounds very cliche,but I think what my experience
(40:05):
has shown me is that the morethat I have sort of embraced my
natural proclivities and allowedthem to kind of shine forth or
allowed myself to lean into themin a way that's visible to
others, the more satisfied Ifelt, and I feel like my life
(40:27):
has made a lot more sense asI've simply embraced my natural
proclivities more, instead oftrying to tamp them down and fit
them into other people'sexpectations and structures.
Yeah, I'm thinking of whetherthere's anything else I would
want to say to you.
Nadja Cereghetti (40:43):
I think that that's brilliant because you
know the square peg in the roundhole right and especially even
though you say you know you wereidentified gifted early on.
But it's about academicachievement.
It's not so much about how weperceive the world differently
and only this connection weusually make much later in life,
(41:05):
if we make it and if you know,like me, I've never been
identified in school as gifted.
We don't really have thisconcept here.
So even like stumbling acrossthis information was highly by
chance, and so I was like, whyhas nobody told me this?
Like now I know why.
(41:26):
You know I've gotten all thisfeedback.
You know 40 years of my life.
You're too intense, you're tooloud, can't you not just be
normal?
People also had expectations ofyou.
Know how I should behave as awoman, or, you know, as a young
person or indifferent.
(41:47):
Sometimes you're too young, tooold, yeah, and I think, as you
said, once you startunderstanding that what we're
doing, what I thought what I wasdoing fitting into the societal
norms was adulting, I was likethis sucks, I don't want to be
(42:07):
an adult if that's what it takes.
But I realized like for otheradults it's not as hard to fit
in or it comes more naturallyand, as you said, once you start
being yourself, it's freeing,it's liberating and it's like,
yeah, and once you do that,that's the first step.
(42:29):
But then, connecting withothers that are like my name,
like you know, when we met inthe summer, it's like instant.
I don't know, it's hard todescribe.
It's like you go into a roomand you don't have to explain
yourself and you can just beyourself and you get married
back.
And nobody told me I was toointense.
(42:50):
Maybe they didn't say it to myface, like I just felt there was
something in the air.
I don't, I can really notdescribe it.
It was just a special moment,walking into this room,
surrounded by like-minded people, and I feel like, if you are on
top, you know a black persongoing into a space that you're
(43:14):
offered this intersection ofbeing gifted and black.
That might be very, veryhealing and empowering.
And so, yeah, I'm cheering youon.
Oh, thank you so much.
I'm sending all my listenerswho resonate with your message
towards you.
Kaitlin Smith (43:33):
Yeah, Thank you so much, I so appreciate it.
Nadja Cereghetti (43:36):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you for sharing and Ihope I see you maybe soon again
and we'll wrap up now, but maybeyou come back later and share a
little bit along the way ofyour journey in a future episode
.
Kaitlin Smith (43:52):
I would love that so much.
That would be wonderful.
Bye.
Nadja Cereghetti (43:55):
Bye.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand I want to say thank you for
your time for listening.
And if you want to be in theloop of what's coming next and
when the next episodes arecoming out, then first of all,
subscribe to the podcastwherever you're listening to,
and, second, you can go to thewebsite giftedunleash.
(44:16):
com and subscribe to thenewsletter.
I will let you know when thenext episode is dropping or if I
have other news for you, so youwill stay in the loop.
So with that, I'm gonna wishyou a wonderful rest of Bye.
week and I'll see you next time.
Bye
Hello and welcome to Gifted Unleashed,
where we talk about the giftedand twice- exceptional brain and
how it affects our thinking andexperience of the world
differently.
There are a lot of stereotypesand stigma around the term
giftedness and I'm here tochallenge those.
I'm here to raise awareness andto have a conversation around
the topic of what it means to bea gifted and 2e adult.
Common experience among giftedfolks is that they feel out of
(00:26):
place.
They don't quite fit in.
They are too sensitive, toointense, too emotional, too
overexcitable and too deepthinkers about the world and
about themselves.
So if you have been called toomuch of about anything, then
this show is for you.
My name is Nadja.
I'm too loud, too colorful, toobubbly, too bossy and I love to
talk too much.
So welcome to my world and I'mso happy you're here.
(00:50):
Welcome to another episode ofGifted Unleashed, the podcast
for gifted and twice-exceptional adults.
Today we have Kaitlin Smith onthe podcast, and Kaitlin and I
we met during a course ofintergifted offered by Jennifer
Harvey Salin, and you know, ifyou've listened to the podcast
in the past, I'm a huge fan ofJen and Jen is a big part why
(01:12):
this podcast is off the ground.
So Jen offered a course andKaitlin and I were part of the
course and stayed in contact andeven met at Seng in the summer,
and this podcast episode hasbeen long in the making.
So pleased that Kaitlin and Ifinally got a chance to sit
together virtually and have aconversation what she does in
(01:36):
the gifted space and what sheoffers, and that's what we're
going to talk about today.
Welcome, Kaitlin, I'm so excitedto have you on the podcast.
I'm excited to do that and ithas been such a long time in the
making.
We've been talking in thebackground I think we've met
over a year ago probably, andwe've met in the summer, but we
(02:01):
didn't really have time to speakin depth.
So actually I'm excited for youto be on this show today so we
can talk a little bit moretogether in private and for the
public and, yeah, get to knoweach other and I'm really
excited to hear more about you.
Thank you so much.
Kaitlin Smith (02:19):
I'm so excited to be here and chat more with you.
Nadja Cereghetti (02:22):
I just want to start by listening to your
gifted story.
I feel like every gifted personhas a gifted story.
How did they uncover this topicand how did they learn about
this?
Why it's important in theirlife, and, I think, especially
people working in this space.
That usually gives them theirwhy and I think that's very
(02:44):
interesting to hear.
Would you like?
Kaitlin Smith (02:47):
to share.
Yeah, absolutely, I appreciatethe question Well, I guess I
should begin when I was inelementary school.
I was fortunate in a lot ofways in that I was identified as
gifted when I was very young.
I had the opportunity to beginMontessori school when I was
(03:08):
very young, a little bit youngerthan I think is typical in the
states.
In the United States where Ilive, I was two years old when I
started and just about to turnthree, and there were some
changes that happened in myfamily around where we were
going to live.
We were planning to move to onecommunity and then needed to
(03:30):
sort of switch gears last minuteand, as a result, the school
that I was going to go toanother Montessori school ended
up not being the school that Icould continue at indefinitely,
and so I suddenly needed to kindof switch gears into attending
a conventional school, and thatled to some challenges because I
(03:50):
, prior to that, been learningin a mixed age environment in a
Montessori school where therewas a lot of latitude and room
for me to pursue morechallenging work or in certain
areas, and to make a long storyshort, I ended up being advanced
a year and I guess in thecourse of that process in the
(04:13):
more conventional school, publicschool and in the course of
that process I ended up beingtested for the talented and
gifted program that was offeredin my school district and then
ended up participating in thatprogramming.
So I think that may have beenthe first time that I explicitly
received the gifted label in myeducational journey, but
(04:38):
strangely, I think that Ilargely forgot about it in a way
, or I forgot about that label,and I think that in general,
when I was told that I'm giftedor that this framework or this
label might relate to me and mylife in some way, I think it was
really framed as something thatwas solely about my academic
(04:59):
performance and that it didn'tnecessarily have anything to do
with other dimensions of me thatwould sort of endure into my
adult life.
And I think that, after havingsome of those early experiences,
it wasn't until many yearslater that I found myself
returning to these themes.
I would say that a majorwatershed moment for me came
(05:23):
when I was training as apsychotherapist, about 10 years
ago now, and I, in short,received some critical feedback
from some of the people I wasworking with and training with.
I can maybe elaborate more onthis later in our conversation.
But I received some.
I had some really challengingexperiences during that time in
(05:44):
which some of these individuals,one in particular, told me that
I was way too intellectual tobe a therapist first of all,
which I think is disconcertingon a number of levels.
I think there's a lot to unpackthere, but in addition, there
was also this notion that I wasalso somehow too intellectual to
(06:05):
be an emotionally healthy andauthentic black woman and
there's a lot to unpack there aswell.
And anyway, that was absolutelya watershed moment for me that
got me thinking more aboutwhat's going on here.
And I would say that in theyears that followed those
(06:27):
experiences, I had otherexperiences that again prompted
me to think about this conceptof giftedness and that included
some personal relationships thatI had, like a particular
romantic relationship, and someof the dynamics that developed
between me and that person ledme to think more deeply about
what is it about?
(06:48):
The way that I operate and theway that my mind works.
That feels like a departurefrom the ways that a lot of
other people around me operate.
So those experiences were amongthe experiences that got me
thinking more deeply about adultgiftedness and that it's not
merely an academic label.
There's a lot more that I couldsay about this, but I want to
(07:10):
pause and have a conversation.
Nadja Cereghetti (07:13):
Yeah, there's so much right.
We have so much to share.
I want to ask you right herewhere did you make this
connection between thisgiftedness and I guess first it
was about the intellectual andthen you realize there's more to
it than the intellectual.
Is that where this wholeprocess went, or did they train
(07:34):
you on giftedness in the program?
Kaitlin Smith (07:37):
No, Definitely not.
I think it would be wonderfulif this knowledge was shared
more in the course of training.
I should also note that themental health field in which I
trained was clinical social work.
So in my experience and perhapsthis is changing and I just
(07:59):
haven't caught wind of it but mysense is that discussion around
intelligence has notnecessarily been foregrounded in
that area of the mental healthfield.
I do know that for some peoplewho train a psychologist, they
may learn more aboutintelligence testing and
(08:19):
different forms of intelligence,but so I'll kind of leave it to
people who have trained apsychologist to speak to that.
But in the clinical social workfield it was definitely not
something that we were talkingabout at all, and for me it was
just striking that amongst thepeople I was interfacing with in
the course of my trainingprocess, there didn't seem to be
(08:41):
a ton of curiosity around thedifferent ways in which people
may move through the world,where I guess their mental
proclivities are concerned, andnot just around their traumas
and their personalities, butalso where people's intensity,
complexity and drive may beconcentrated and how those
(09:05):
things manifest differently indifferent individuals.
I feel that there was notperhaps enough conversation
around those topics at that time, yeah, so that felt like a
missing piece for me, and Iended up going on a journey to
learn more about it.
Nadja Cereghetti (09:23):
I love how you call it a journey.
I call it a rabbit hole oh,amazing.
And so, basically, you startedthis journey for yourself and
probably realized you knowyou're not the only one and
there's something that you needto bring into the world.
And so do you want to share alittle bit more about this
(09:47):
journey and speak more about,you know, these key interactions
that you had and what what shedlight on onto that?
Kaitlin Smith (09:55):
Yeah, yeah, thank you for asking.
I think that that particularwatershed moment that I
identified earlier, that Iexperienced during my
psychotherapeutic training, wasa big one for me.
There's so much to unpackrelated to that experience, but
I think that for me one of thethings that was most striking
(10:16):
was just this, this basic notionthat somehow I, from the
vantage point of this particularindividual, who was a white
woman, who I don't actuallybelieve that she was a therapist
, but she had produced doctorallevel research on psychology and
(10:37):
was teaching and mentoringpeople in the context of my
master's level training programand just the sheer notion that
my intellectualism had to bepathological because in her
estimation or in her imagination, when a black woman is being
truly herself, she doesn't showup that way and therefore there
(10:58):
must be some sort of underlyingdeception at the heart of my way
of being.
That was just incrediblydifficult to, not just to hear
like it was very traumatizingand difficult, but it was also.
It was so challenging torespond to you because this
person truly believed that shewas just right.
(11:20):
She was just so right aboutthis and that her opinion
couldn't be challenged and shewas also in a in a position in
this institution like tenuredand just had a level of
seniority that made thesituation really intimidating
for me.
One one part of the story that Ihaven't shared yet is that this
(11:42):
person also then went so far asto tell me that if I couldn't
align my way of being with amore authentic personality or
like way of responding to theworld, ie being more angry from
her perspective.
She felt that I wasn't beingangry enough and wasn't being
loud enough and wasn't justshowing up in ways that she
(12:04):
thought I ought to be based on astereotypical understanding of
what a black woman does.
This person literally told methat she wouldn't feel
comfortable allowing me tograduate with a master's degree
that I was working toward atthat time If I couldn't adopt
this correct persona in herimagination.
And yeah, because I guess, fromher perspective, when you're
(12:28):
becoming a therapist, you're theinstrument and you need to be
finally tuned in order to attuneto your patients and show up
appropriately and I think, onsome sort of basic level, I
think that makes sense.
I think that at least embarkingupon a journey where you learn
to observe your own reactionsand assumptions is really,
(12:48):
really important, and I thinkthat's true of coaches as well,
even people who aren'ttherapists.
But this was the situation inwhich I think it was really
clear that her basic assumptionsabout the world and who black
people and black women inparticular are in that world and
must be in that world and, byextension, me couldn't really be
(13:09):
disentangled from that trainingprocess and her responsibility
as the person training me and asan experience.
It just brought into focus somany questions, some of them
personal, but also just otherquestions about what are the
ways in which these dynamics areplaying out across our society
(13:29):
and world and what are the waysin which people are being
manipulated and gas lit.
What are the ways in whichpeople are being urged in one
manner or another to abandonedthemselves and bullied out of
knowing what they know abouttheir lives?
(13:50):
Anyway, after having theseexperiences and others, I
embarked upon a journey to thinkmore deeply about the role that
giftedness has continued tohave in my adult life and the
places where it's intersectedwith other dimensions of my
social identity, so as a blackperson and as a woman in
(14:13):
particular, and that eventuallyled to me starting a business
called Our Wild Minds, whichmaybe we'll chat a bit about
more later, but through thisbusiness I am focused on
supporting BIPOC and adults sothat's a black indigenous and
people of color in befriendingand operationalizing their
(14:35):
natural gifts, which isabsolutely something that I'm
still continuing to you know, todo and learn about.
So I'm not positioning myselfas some sort of supreme
authority or somethingridiculous like that, but I
think that that reallychallenging and awful experience
that I had really initiated meinto this path of learning and
(14:56):
development and I've been reallyexcited to invite other people
into that so we can learn fromone another and help one another
achieve our goals in the worldon our own terms.
Nadja Cereghetti (15:06):
Oh, and congratulations on your business
and I love, love, love the nameOur Wild Minds.
It's amazing.
Thank you so much.
So much goes through my headright now.
You know, like people, I thinkmaybe this person even thought
(15:26):
she had your best interests atheart.
Why didn't you even do a helpyou or something, I don't know,
and so offensive?
Yeah, I think you're right.
Just forcing you to mask,pretend to be somebody you're
not and just living up toprejudice and stereotypes?
(15:46):
Yes, I may.
Kaitlin Smith (15:49):
Something, something I'd love to just
quickly say to Rith on what youjust said about this person
potentially having positiveintent, as she was offering
these unsolicited perspectivesto me, and this prompts me to
think about the framework ofcultural competency.
That's a framework that you'veencountered very much in your
career.
(16:10):
No, please share more.
Here in the States there's alot of conversation about the
concept of cultural competency,which is a framework that is
often used in the mental healthfield and in other fields as
well, I think in the educationfield too but it's a framework
that's often used whenprofessionals are being trained
(16:31):
in a particular field ormodality, and it's all about
sort of helping people cultivatethe capacity to engage across
difference and engage withpeople whose identities might
their social identities mightdiverge from their own.
So that can be around race,ethnicity, gender, sexual
orientation, gender identity,religion, class, all kinds of
(16:57):
areas.
And in the mental health field,when I was training as a
psychotherapist anyway, therewas definitely an emphasis on
cultivating cultural competencyand at the same time, there was
also a lot of criticism frompeople who were suggesting what
does it mean that we'reencouraging people to believe
(17:17):
that you can somehow just masterwhat it means to engage with
people from a particular groupas though people don't have
interiority and also as thoughthere are certain traits that
you ought to be looking for inyour dealings with people who
hail from a particular group.
So I think there's a lot ofcomplexity there and a lot to
(17:37):
unpack, but I think that, withthis particular individual I was
describing earlier, who wastraining me, I think that one
way to conceptualize what mayhave been going on there was
that she had really clung ontothis really narrow understanding
(17:58):
of what a black person is and,instead of really making herself
open to or opening up to what Iwas telling her about my
experience and my priorities andmy values, she insisted upon
this narrow understanding inwhich she kind of preserved
herself as the expert and wasn'topen to having her worldview
(18:22):
challenged or offended by herexperience with me, that
relationship.
So, yeah, I think that's.
There's an opportunity therefor people who may be thinking
you were listening.
How do I not fall into thesetraps?
I think maybe one tool or onetakeaway is to be open to what
you learn in the moment in yourdealings with people who are
(18:44):
maybe caling from a differentbackground, instead of clinging
to some sort of ideology or likestatic conception of what women
are like or what people of aparticular group are like.
Nadja Cereghetti (18:57):
Yeah, definitely.
Thank you for sharing and alsoeducating me.
What I encountered or what Isaw coming into this gifted
space is, or what I didn't see,is a lot of black women, and I
(19:18):
wonder why that is, and I havemy own theories, but I don't
know if that's something youhave also thought about or is
that something that I observedcorrectly?
Kaitlin Smith (19:31):
Yeah, let's see.
Bye.
I have a bunch of thoughtsgoing through my head right now.
I apologize.
I think that when I first kindof re-entered the I guess the
world of gifted people who areconnected around the world and
the specialty people who supportgifted adults, I had a very
(19:52):
similar reaction.
I thought, oh, I'm notencountering other black people
in this space who are kind ofleading and supporting others or
creating containers for others.
So that struck me as a missedopportunity that I've been
inspired to respond to throughmy business.
But as I've delved deeper, I'vebeen really excited by the
(20:16):
incredible work that variousblack women leaders in the field
of gifted education have doneand the kind of foundational,
incredibly important work thatthey've laid.
Dr Joy Lawson Davis is one ofthose people.
She's here in the States, she'swritten a number of books and
is just such an inspiring andlovely person.
(20:39):
And then there's also Dr DonnaFord, who has also been a
pathbreaking voice in the fieldof gifted education, and both of
them have really illuminated somany issues related to gifted
education for youth of color.
I feel like I've gained so muchfrom engaging with their work
that I've been able to thinkwith as I explore ways in which
(21:04):
we can create more networks ofsupport for gifted adults who
are part of communities of color.
Yeah, so the way I'm thinkingabout it right now is that there
are a lot of opportunities toport some of those insights from
the gifted education world overinto adult life, and my sense
is that there's also a lot ofroom to just continue building
(21:25):
upon work that's already beendone and create new resources
too.
So it's exciting to be part ofthis, and I think there's a lot
of opportunity for people toplug in who are interested in
these conversations.
Nadja Cereghetti (21:37):
Oh, thank you for sharing also your resources
and for being that person youknow to trail, blaze and create
this community for black womenand people of color.
Kaitlin Smith (21:50):
Thank you and I feel so grateful as well,
because it's quite clear to methat I'm standing on the
shoulders of so many peopledefinitely the two women I just
mentioned and a number of otherpeople too.
This is just one specificexample, but I'm currently a PhD
student at Harvard, and when Ifirst started I was searching
(22:14):
the campus high and low for somesort of bust or statue
dedicated to WEB Du Bois, whowas the first black graduate.
I was so excited to finallylocate a bust of him in the
Department of African andAfrican American Studies, and he
was someone who many, many,many years ago was talking about
(22:37):
these issues.
He wasn't necessarily talkingabout it through the prism of
giftedness per se, but he wasexposing these fundamental
questions about how theintelligence of black people was
being imagined, and he was in aposition where a lot of people
wouldn't listen to what he hadto say, but he nevertheless kind
of made himself into an exampleand has just left a lot of
(23:02):
opportunities in his wake thatdidn't exist before.
So all of that to say that I'mgrateful to be able to stand on
the shoulders of so many giantsand figure out how I can
contribute.
Nadja Cereghetti (23:15):
Thank you so much, Kaitlin, for sharing all
of your insights, and let's justtalk a little bit more about
what you offer for the giftedwomen in this space, like why
reach out to you if you're agifted and black person and join
your program?
Kaitlin Smith (23:33):
Yeah, thank you, let's see.
Well, right now I have twoofferings.
Probably that pool will expandin the future.
But I have an online communitythat I've started called Our
Wild Minds Community, and in thefuture I hope that we'll be
able to kind of carve out spacefor additional communities of
(23:55):
color.
But we're starting just withblack gifted adults, and this is
a space that people can come tomeet new friends, new contacts,
professional contacts and justsort of get support in various
areas of their life, rangingfrom personal to professional.
So this is a great way forpeople to sort of get to know me
(24:19):
and the kind of work that I do.
And we offer twice weeklycommunity calls at this point,
which is just an opportunity forpeople to be in a conversation
around a central theme and thethemes vary by month over the
course of the year, but it's anopportunity for people to forge
new connections each time.
And there's also a robustonline community where people
(24:43):
can meet people both across theworld and close to them, and
there's also an area wherepeople can kind of explore
different ways.
That giftedness has beenunderstood as a concept, because
I know that people often comeinto this gifted adult world or
industry feeling kind of likewhat is all of this?
(25:05):
Some of this resonates with meand some of it really doesn't
resonate with me.
So I wanted to create kind oflike a journey that people can
follow as they enter thecommunity.
That can help them thinkthrough what giftedness means to
them and also what their goalsare in the context of the
community.
Something else I should mentionabout the community is that
(25:26):
there are kind of fivecomponents to the journey
through the community that I'moffering.
The first is focused onintrospection, so that involves
moving through the foundation'sworkbook that I was just sort of
describing, which is all aboutexploring one's relationship to
giftedness and kind of taking aninventory of one's strengths
(25:49):
and also areas in which one mayfind vulnerabilities and may
want to grow, and sort of usingthat as a template to navigate
the community, because there areso many different areas to plug
in and explore.
The second component of thecommunity is focused on
connection, so I mentioned thecommunity calls, which are
(26:11):
currently happening twicemonthly.
We also are going to have someaffinity groups forming, so
opportunities for people toconnect with people who have
other identities that aresimilar to theirs, such as LGBTQ
people and people who live inparticular regions of the world,
so I'm hopeful that that willexpand more over time.
(26:32):
And then there areopportunities for asynchronous
communication via the onlineforum.
And then the third area of thecommunity is focused on learning
.
So there's a resource librarywhere people can tap into
various books and other mediathat other members have elevated
as useful to them.
(26:53):
And there's also an area wherepeople can find study buddies.
So maybe people are reallypassionate about a particular
topic or they're enthusiasticabout exploring a particular
thing, even entirelyindependently, and there's room
for people to identify whatthey're exploring and connect
with others who they want tocheck in with them about those
(27:16):
topics or engage in some sort oflearning journey together.
And then there's also anopportunity for all of the
community members to gainpriority access to any online
courses that are offered withinour wild minds and I'll circle
back to that point in just amoment.
The fourth area of the communitythat people can choose to
(27:37):
engage with is focused onmanifestation, so kind of
bringing one's visions into theworld.
So there's an area where peoplecan articulate their goals and
find accountability buddies.
I hope that in the future wecan carve out greater structure
for people to gather and kind ofhold one another accountable,
but to start, we're just goingto have accountability buddies
(28:00):
and I'm excited to see where wecan go with that.
There are also areas wherepeople can network with other
people in their particularindustries.
So, yeah, people can make newconnections.
And there are alsoopportunities for people who are
career changers and want toexplore a particular arena, to
connect with someone who hasmore experience and maybe set up
(28:22):
an informational interview andrelated to that, there's also a
mentor matching area, wherepeople can indicate that they're
seeking a mentor in aparticular arena or that they
are seeking a mentee in aparticular arena, and people are
invited to express that they'reseeking both at the same time.
Maybe they would love to findsomeone who can help them find
(28:43):
their way in this one arena, butthey would also love the
support of someone in another,and they can do those things
simultaneously.
And this notion of seeking amentee or someone to sort of
support, maybe coming up behindyou or alongside you, is
connected to the fifth and finalcomponent of this community
journey, which is focused ongiving back.
(29:05):
So that includes connecting withpeople, supporting people as a
mentor in some regard, andthere's also an opportunity to
get involved with social impactprojects, and one of the ways
that I'm really excited toexplore this in the context of
the community is by havinghackathons, where we sort of
carve out a weekend.
(29:27):
I don't know just yet what theregularity of these events will
be.
I'm kind of waiting to see howpeople feel about it and what
the feedback is, but I'm reallyexcited to have kind of like a
hackathon weekend where peopleget together on Zoom from all
over the world and split up intoteams and have a central
challenge or question that facesour community or people like us
(29:50):
around the world, or some othersocial question or social issue
that is important to people,that people have maybe voted on.
And then the teams kind ofdevise some sort of creative
response to whatever the issueis and creates something,
whether it's a prototype for anapp or a piece of artwork or an
(30:12):
idea for a program and how theywould implement it.
And then we come together andshare our learnings, share our
findings, and I'm envisioningthis as a meaningful way for
people to forge newrelationships, friendships and
professional relationships andalso generate actionable ideas
that we can then potentiallydecide to act upon as a
(30:33):
community.
So those are the initialofferings that are planned for
the community, but I'm excitedto see what I learn and what
people are most excited about aswe iterate on the platform.
Nadja Cereghetti (30:46):
This sounds amazing and I have already a few
people I'm going to send yourway and I hope they bite.
And I hope because I feel likethese women are exactly the type
of women that could use andoffer support and like be,
exactly, you know, engaging inthis community.
It's wonderful.
Kaitlin Smith (31:07):
Can I just like to clarify something?
This community is actually forpeople of all genders, just to
be clear.
So I'm starting with peopleadults who identify as black and
gifted, and it may be that inthe future, there could be other
areas of this community thatserve other communities of color
(31:28):
.
That's something that I wouldlove to offer in the future, but
I'm not there yet, so this iswhat I'm offering right now.
Nadja Cereghetti (31:37):
So many thoughts and I think I know the
answer.
But I want to hear it from you.
If I tell you know my friendwho fits your profile for your
community to go and join, butshe doesn't have an official
gifted diagnosis, never been togifted school, I believe she
might be the perfect candidate.
(31:58):
Does she need to prove she'sgifted or how can she enter?
Kaitlin Smith (32:03):
Yeah, thank you so much for asking that question
.
That's such an importantquestion.
No, how should I respond tothis succinctly?
There's so much to say on thistopic, but in a nutshell, no, I
want to welcome in anyone whoresonates with this concept and
(32:23):
sees themselves in it.
And I think that if someonejoins and they begin connecting
with people and with theresources that are there and
feels like, oh, maybe this isn'tthe right fit, or maybe this
would be the right fit If thisother dimension was included, I
would love to receive thatfeedback and, you know, have a
conversation about it and seewhat kind of support they're
(32:44):
looking for, what kind ofsupport they need.
And if someone decides, oh, thisisn't for me, then that's fine.
But I'm not remotely interestedin attempting to tell other
people who is gifted and who'snot.
I've been in spaces before inwhich I witnessed that dynamic
and it really rubs me the wrongway.
I think that intelligence is amysterious and multi-dimensional
(33:08):
and expansive thing and I don'tthink anyone should have the
last word on it.
So I yeah, I'm not on boardwith people who operate in those
ways.
Yeah, I think that anyone whoreads my writing or has engaged
with other materials related toadult giftedness and they
(33:30):
resonate with it.
They should feel welcome toparticipate.
I'm also realizing, Nadja, thatI didn't talk about the online
course that I created, which Ithink you asked me about, but I
didn't mention it.
Nadja Cereghetti (33:44):
Please tell us more about your course, okay.
Kaitlin Smith (33:47):
Yeah, so I created an online course called
Black Brilliant Circle and it isa six month journey through
kind of what it is to be agifted black adult that engages
mind, body and heart or that'show I've envisioned it and I
just recently wrapped up theinitial run of the course and
(34:08):
had a great time and learned somuch from my participants and I
can't wait to offer it again infall of 2024.
So I'll be circulating moreinformation about that as that
date approaches.
But, in short, that courseoffered participants an
opportunity to engage with agroup of peers from all over the
(34:30):
world Half were from the UnitedStates and the other half were
from other parts of the worldand we met twice monthly for six
months and we're able to goreally deep into a lot of
material, and one of the keythemes that we explored, among
many, is the intersection ofracial trauma and gifted trauma,
and I can say if you'd like tohear more and I want to be
(34:54):
cognizant of your time- Pleasego.
Nadja Cereghetti (34:57):
I really want to hear more and I think it's
very important to talk aboutthis.
Kaitlin Smith (35:03):
Yeah, yeah, I know that there's some people in
the gifted field who talk aboutthe issue of gifted trauma,
like Jennifer Harvey Salin, forexample.
We both know, and one of theelements that I've wanted to
contribute to the conversationin the gifted field that serves
gifted adults is thecontribution of racial trauma
(35:23):
and racism to the experiences ofmembers of minoritized
populations, like racialminorities, and I know that the
story that I shared earlierabout being framed as too
intellectual to be an authenticblack woman is one example that
I think kind of brings this,this idea, to life, where
(35:45):
there's the gifted element,where the person is encountering
something that seems alien andother to them in the manner that
I communicate and think andwhat have you.
But then there's also thiselement of you know you're black
and therefore all black peoplesupposedly are a certain way, or
(36:08):
to see a black person who's atonce highly intellectual and and
black, and I think that seemscontradictory about that in a
lot of people's imaginations andI think that that that dynamic
it can be immensely traumatizingfor a lot of people.
So the story that I shared wasjust one example of that, but I
(36:30):
think another specific issuethat came up in conversation in
the context of the BlackBrilliant Circle course was just
all of the violence againstblack people around the world
and the pervasiveness ofanti-blackness in general, and
(36:52):
just how challenging it is tolive in the midst of those
dynamics and also be someone whofeels very deeply and processes
your experiences in the worlddeeply.
And I think, depending onsomeone's unique constellation
(37:14):
of intelligences, theiremotional reactions may be
particularly strong and somepeople exhibit quite a lot of
intensity in the area ofexistential intelligence.
And that combination of forcescan lead some people in
directions that are just reallyhard to get out of and to just
(37:35):
sort of endure, because it's notenough to just imagine that
well, you know, we're just goingto think happy thoughts and
everything will be better,because we don't live in that
world, unfortunately.
So this course offered a spacein which we had an opportunity
to discuss some of thosetensions and realities, while
(37:56):
also exploring and envisioning,you know, the kinds of people we
can become in the world we haveand the ways in which we can
contribute to reshaping theworld within our own spheres of
influence, such that more blackbrilliance can flourish in
authentic ways.
So in many ways it was a coursethat offered more of an
(38:17):
invitation to ongoing learningand development for all of the
participants, but I had a greattime and I'm looking forward to
welcoming the next group ofpeople.
Nadja Cereghetti (38:26):
Wow, thank you for sharing and I think, yeah,
a space highly needed,especially in the current times
that we're living in, and I knowthe political space also in the
US currently.
Yeah, thank you.
I can just say thank you forwhat you're doing and I hope my
(38:49):
podcast gets out to the peoplewho need to hear this and who
need your gifted brilliantcircle and join and your
community.
It sounds amazing and like awonderful safe space.
Kaitlin Smith (39:04):
Thank you so much .
Nadja Cereghetti (39:06):
So if somebody wants to join, where can they
find you?
Kaitlin Smith (39:11):
Yeah, the best place to go is my website, which
is our wild minds.
com, and that first word is ourlike.
O U R.
Nadja Cereghetti (39:23):
And I will put all the links in the show notes
.
Also your social media sopeople can follow and just click
and see what you're doing.
Wonderful.
A few last words.
Is there anything you wouldlike to share or anything that
you wish you knew earlier,something you just want people
to know?
Kaitlin Smith (39:43):
Oh man, I love that question.
So many thoughts are runningthrough my head.
I'm trying to avoid offering ananswer that feels cliche, but
what's honestly coming to mindis just about the importance of
being yourself.
Yeah, it sounds very cliche,but I think what my experience
(40:05):
has shown me is that the morethat I have sort of embraced my
natural proclivities and allowedthem to kind of shine forth or
allowed myself to lean into themin a way that's visible to
others, the more satisfied Ifelt, and I feel like my life
(40:27):
has made a lot more sense asI've simply embraced my natural
proclivities more, instead oftrying to tamp them down and fit
them into other people'sexpectations and structures.
Yeah, I'm thinking of whetherthere's anything else I would
want to say to you.
Nadja Cereghetti (40:43):
I think that that's brilliant because you
know the square peg in the roundhole right and especially even
though you say you know you wereidentified gifted early on.
But it's about academicachievement.
It's not so much about how weperceive the world differently
and only this connection weusually make much later in life,
(41:05):
if we make it and if you know,like me, I've never been
identified in school as gifted.
We don't really have thisconcept here.
So even like stumbling acrossthis information was highly by
chance, and so I was like, whyhas nobody told me this?
Like now I know why.
(41:26):
You know I've gotten all thisfeedback.
You know 40 years of my life.
You're too intense, you're tooloud, can't you not just be
normal?
People also had expectations ofyou.
Know how I should behave as awoman, or, you know, as a young
person or indifferent.
(41:47):
Sometimes you're too young, tooold, yeah, and I think, as you
said, once you startunderstanding that what we're
doing, what I thought what I wasdoing fitting into the societal
norms was adulting, I was likethis sucks, I don't want to be
(42:07):
an adult if that's what it takes.
But I realized like for otheradults it's not as hard to fit
in or it comes more naturallyand, as you said, once you start
being yourself, it's freeing,it's liberating and it's like,
yeah, and once you do that,that's the first step.
(42:29):
But then, connecting withothers that are like my name,
like you know, when we met inthe summer, it's like instant.
I don't know, it's hard todescribe.
It's like you go into a roomand you don't have to explain
yourself and you can just beyourself and you get married
back.
And nobody told me I was toointense.
(42:50):
Maybe they didn't say it to myface, like I just felt there was
something in the air.
I don't, I can really notdescribe it.
It was just a special moment,walking into this room,
surrounded by like-minded people, and I feel like, if you are on
top, you know a black persongoing into a space that you're
(43:14):
offered this intersection ofbeing gifted and black.
That might be very, veryhealing and empowering.
And so, yeah, I'm cheering youon.
Oh, thank you so much.
I'm sending all my listenerswho resonate with your message
towards you.
Kaitlin Smith (43:33):
Yeah, Thank you so much, I so appreciate it.
Nadja Cereghetti (43:36):
Oh, thank you.
Thank you for sharing and Ihope I see you maybe soon again
and we'll wrap up now, but maybeyou come back later and share a
little bit along the way ofyour journey in a future episode
.
Kaitlin Smith (43:52):
I would love that so much.
That would be wonderful.
Bye.
Nadja Cereghetti (43:55):
Bye.
I hope you enjoyed this episodeand I want to say thank you for
your time for listening.
And if you want to be in theloop of what's coming next and
when the next episodes arecoming out, then first of all,
subscribe to the podcastwherever you're listening to,
and, second, you can go to thewebsite giftedunleash.
(44:16):
com and subscribe to thenewsletter.
I will let you know when thenext episode is dropping or if I
have other news for you, so youwill stay in the loop.
So with that, I'm gonna wishyou a wonderful rest of Bye.
week and I'll see you next time.
Bye
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