June 23, 2024 • 46 mins
Unlock the secrets to navigating the maze of giftedness with our guest, Matthew Zakreski, affectionately known as Dr. Matt. As a clinical psychologist and professional speaker, Dr. Matt sheds light on his personal journey from being identified as gifted in second grade to becoming an advocate for neurodivergent individuals. Together, we explore the trials and triumphs of gifted education, the concept of the performance cliff, and the challenges of imposter syndrome. Dr. Matt’s unique insights provide a compelling look into the often misunderstood world of the gifted community.
Discover the critical role of failure in the learning process, especially for those grappling with the "curse of competence." Drawing from his experience as a professional speaker, Dr. Matt shares how embracing failure has been paramount in pushing beyond comfort zones and achieving meaningful progress. We also examine the Yerkes-Dodson law, which highlights the necessity of optimal engagement at varying levels of difficulty. Through personal stories and relatable examples, we illustrate how gifted individuals can turn struggles into stepping stones.
Join us as we dive deep into the intensity and interconnectedness of the gifted mind. Hear the moving story of a child's emotional response to the Australian wildfires and learn why self-care is essential. We address imposter syndrome head-on, offering strategies for overcoming it through self-compassion and recognizing one’s unique strengths. Our candid discussion includes real-time experiences, such as a technical mishap during recording, to underscore the power of vulnerability. Stay connected with our podcast community, and learn how you can support and grow with us at giftedunleashed.com.
Would you like to work with me 1:1 as your gifted and 2e coach? Please send me an email at hello@giftedunleashed.com or find more information about my coaching offer on my website giftedunleashed.com/coaching
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nadja (00:02):
Hello and welcome to Gifted Unleashed, where we talk
about the gifted and twiceexceptional brain and how it
affects our thinking andexperience of the world
differently.
There are a lot of stereotypesand stigma around the term
giftedness, and I'm here tochallenge those.
I'm here to raise awareness andto have a conversation around
the topic of what it means to bea gifted and 2e adult.
Common experience among giftedfolks is that they feel out of
(00:26):
place.
They don't quite fit in.
They're too sensitive, toointense, too emotional, too
overexcitable and too deepthinkers about the world and
about themselves.
So if you have been called toomuch about anything, then this
show is for you.
My name is Nadja.
I'm too loud, too colorful, toobubbly, too bossy and I love to
talk too much.
So welcome to my world and I'mso happy you're here.
(00:49):
Hello and welcome.
Today we have a treat of a guestfor you.
Today we have Matthew Zakreski,AKA Dr.
Matt, here on the podcast.
He is a high energy, creativeclinical psychologist and a
professional speaker whoutilizes an electric approach to
meet the specific needs of hisneurodivergent clients.
(01:11):
He is proud to serve the giftedcommunity as a consultant, a
professor, an author and also aresearcher.
He has spoken over 400 timesall over the world about
supporting neurodivergent kids.
Dr Matt is a member ofSupporting the Emotional Needs
of the Gifted, aka SENG, theNational Association for Gifted
Children, the New JerseyAssociation for Gifted Children
(01:33):
and Pennsylvania Association forGifted Education, and he is
also the co-founder of theNeurodiversity Collective.
I've met him last year at SENGand now he's here on the podcast
for you, and we talk about somany different things.
We talk about performance cliff, existential depression,
imposter syndrome and also thebottom-up thinking.
(01:54):
So, without further ado, here'sDr Matt.
I'm so excited to have you onthe podcast today.
Dr. Matt (02:03):
I mean, I was just.
I couldn't believe I hadn'tbeen on this one.
This is one of the ones that Ilistened to, so it's always a
little surreal to be on apodcast you listen to.
It's like watching yourself onTV.
So I'm thrilled to be here.
Nadja (02:18):
Oh, I'm so happy to hear and I'm honored to have a fan on
the show.
So thank you, and you know.
Likewise, I saw you speak atSENG in the summer and I really
enjoyed listening to your talkand I really would like to
highlight some of what you'vebeen talking then, but also
other topics.
But let's start with your ownstory.
(02:40):
I guess everybody working andproviding services in the gifted
field has a gifted story.
I guess everybody working andproviding services in the gifted
field has a gifted story.
Would you like to share yourgifted story?
Dr. Matt (02:51):
Oh, absolutely.
So yeah, I would say this workis personal and professional for
a lot of us, right?
And so I was identified asgifted in the second grade in
the United States and for me theway I was identified was they
gave us a workbook full of mathproblems and they told us to go
(03:12):
home and do pages one throughfour.
So I did pages one through fourand I said, well, that was
pretty easy, I'll just keepgoing.
And I did five, six, seven,finished, and I brought the book
back the next day and I gave itto my teacher.
She flips through it and shesaid, well, who did this for you
?
I said nobody, I did it.
And she was like, no, youdidn't.
I'm like, yes, I did.
(03:33):
And she sent me to theprincipal's office and you know,
I mean this was, you know, Imean, so it's not like I could
have looked up the answers.
So I spoke to the principal, Ispoke to my teacher, they called
my parents and that sort ofturned into me getting tested
for gifted and surprised I wasgifted.
But then I go back to theclassroom that day and they just
(03:57):
give me another math workbookand I remember distinctly at the
time thinking like, but I'vealready shown you I can do this.
Why are you giving me more ofit, right?
So I mean, when I do theadvocacy work that's part of my
job I think about that story alot.
I think about eight-year-old megoing.
(04:18):
But this isn't right and youknow, it always anchors me to
why I do this work in the firstplace and it always anchors me
to why I do this work in thefirst place, and was it the same
book or was it like a new book?
It was a different book, but itwas the same content, right?
So it's like basic addition andbasic subtraction, and here's
(04:39):
more basic addition and morebasic subtraction.
You couldn't find harder stuffor more interesting stuff, or
teach me multiplication, right?
It was just oh, hey, you canride a bike, Keep riding the
bike, you know?
Nadja (04:52):
it's like well yeah, so I guess you were then placed in
gifted ed, or.
Dr. Matt (05:02):
My school district didn't really have formal gifted
education.
There was the occasional pullout.
They would sometimes take thebright kids and send them on a
special field trip and it'sfunny, that's actually one of my
other gifted origin stories.
I think this was fifth grade.
They sent a bunch of us to aproblem solving, project-based
(05:25):
learning workshop at RutgersUniversity, which is in New
Jersey where I live, and theygave us a bunch of tools and
said the point is to get thisping pong ball to move down the
string.
And all you have is the pingpong ball, a cup, some rope and
two large wooden sticks.
And so everyone's trying tofind a way to build a slide.
(05:48):
And I'm looking at him like,hey guys, if we used the string
and tied it around a chair, wecould hook the ball to the cup
and then just move it around thechair.
And my teammates were likethat's a really good idea.
So we did it and we were thefirst team to finish.
And the people who weresupposed to be judging the
gifted kids problem solvinglooked at us and said, well, you
(06:09):
didn't do it right, do it again.
And I'm like, but we did do it,you never said we couldn't use
the chair, right Out of the box,thinkers.
I mean, I'm telling you.
(06:31):
And like and just like a littlebit of an anarchist, like just a
little right, you know, yeah,but so how does it then, you
know, integrate into your life?
I think a lot of people thatI've talked to, if they were
identified as kids, you know,and had some even gifted program
in school or you know wereidentified as kids.
They still didn't really knowwhat it means and kind of had to
rediscover giftedness once theyreached adulthood.
How was this for you?
(06:52):
Like when and how did youunderstand that giftedness is
more than being able to do mathpretty fast?
So when I was in graduate school, getting my doctorate in
psychology, and I startedresearching gifted, I started I
(07:12):
would read a chapter in a bookand I would come out of my
office and say to my wifethey're talking about me.
And then I would read anotherchapter like, oh my god, that's
me.
Every other chapter.
Oh my god, that's me too.
Every other chapter.
Oh my God, that's me too.
I mean, my parents are bothchild psychologists.
That's how they knew to get metested and that's how they knew
to help me get diagnosed withADHD.
(07:33):
But I really feel like I grewup in maybe the last generation
where we just thought gifted wasjust smart.
When I think about my life, Ithink about, like the social and
emotional asynchrony.
Right, I was definitely thatkid who was much more
comfortable talking to adults.
You know, I think about masking.
(07:55):
I'm I masked so much as a kid,right, just going along to
getting along, cause what elseare you going to do?
And you know, thinking aboutemotional intensity, thinking
about sensory stuff.
And so every time I read a bookfrom you know whether it's Jim
Webb or, you know, lindaSilverman or Susan Johnson or
(08:16):
whoever writes the book I readit and I look at it and go, ah,
damn, that's me.
And and it's when you seegiftedness as a brain difference
, not as just oh, look at howgood at math this kid is, then
it opens up so many more windowsto who you are and why you are
that way, and I think thatclarity is so helpful to a lot
(08:40):
of people in this community.
Nadja (08:42):
I think that's probably the most powerful realization,
right, that, as you said, youmask and you probably, as a kid,
didn't know you were masking.
You only realized later.
Dr. Matt (08:55):
No idea.
Well, and now kids will say, oh, I was masking at this party
and I'm like, oh my God, it's socool that you have that
language now, right, it's socool that you knew.
I wish I had known.
And, and I mean you know, oneof my go-to sayings is, you know
, do as best as you can untilyou know better than do better.
(09:17):
Right, that was Dr Maya Angelouand right, so I can't change
that.
I didn't know more as a kid,but I take that knowledge and
bring it to bear every time Iget to talk to a new kid or a
new client, because it's like,hey, you will benefit from
knowing what I know.
Nadja (09:41):
And I want you to know this now, rather than in your
late 20 the adult audience,where usually I think it's
parents discovering their owngiftedness through their
children, and so, for them, it'sa lot of very emotional emails
that I receive saying like, oh,I just found out, you know for
for this resource of thispodcast, because I didn't know I
(10:06):
wasn't alone in this.
So thank you for sharing your,your story and what it means,
and I guess that's also thereason why you then chose to to
work in this field I assume.
Dr. Matt (10:19):
Well, and it was, it was a parent of a kid who
actually turned me on to yourpodcast in the first place
because I tested her kid andshe's like I've been thinking
about this myself a lot.
I said, well, you should get anIQ test yourself.
And I was in Philadelphia atthe time and Gail Post is near
there and Gail's amazing.
She's great with gifted adults.
So I sent her to Gail and thetesting came back and, of course
(10:43):
, the mom is gifted too andshe's like I've been listening
to this podcast you need tolisten to, and I was just
starting to get into podcastsand it was like, oh, this is the
thing.
Nadja (10:53):
So oh, that's so amazing to hear these stories.
How you know, people listen towhat I'm doing here in my small
room at home and during thepandemic, right, we were just
doing things at home and justputting it out there in the big
wide internet.
And, yeah, hearing how otherpeople then receive the
(11:14):
information is really amazing.
So once you finished yourstudies and you just mentioned
you're a psychologist, You're DrMatt, and so what do you do and
what do you do in this space?
And then maybe we can go alittle bit deeper in different
topics.
Dr. Matt (11:35):
These days it's more like what don't I do?
So my primary job is atherapist.
I see 40 to 50 clients a week.
So my primary job is atherapist.
I see 40 to 50 clients a week.
I am also a professionalspeaker and probably do 60
speaking events a year, fromconferences to webinars to big
(11:55):
keynote presentations.
Most of those are here in theStates, but I got to go to ECHA
two years ago and I'm trying tofigure out if I can get there
this summer.
Money's a little tight to get toGreece.
It's a lot easier to go whenthey pay you to.
I was like.
I was like, oh, I should, Ishould do this every year.
(12:17):
And as I do more speaking andwriting, my book comes out in
the fall.
You know, I hired some morepeople for the practice so I can
send more clients their way,because there's so much need out
there, right?
So I'm sending clients theirway, trying to free up some time
in my own schedule so I canfinish my book and do more talks
, and I mean I'm certainly notbored, that's for sure.
(12:38):
I'm very busy.
Nadja (12:41):
Yeah, and one of your talks you also mentioned you
were a bartender.
You were also in a drama club,right Like you did all the
things.
Totally typical, gifted person,multi-potentialite oh my gosh,
the energy and kind of thisinner drive to just keep doing
(13:04):
things and doing new things and,yeah, using all the
opportunities.
So in your speaking event and Isaw you speak at saying and
your topic at the time wasfailure and how it is
fundamental, and I was reallyimpressed and I was really like,
oh, I wish somebody had told meabout this.
(13:25):
Would you like to share alittle bit why failure is so
important and what do you meanby failure?
Dr. Matt (13:34):
And I mean it's one of my favorite talks.
It's the talk I wish I couldgive to myself.
You know, like 10-year-old me,it's like, listen, it's OK to
fail, Because one of theproblems with being gifted is
what I like to call the curse ofcompetence.
Like, you're pretty good at alot of things, so you don't try
(13:55):
things that you're not good atand you cruise along at a
reasonable level of competenceuntil things get hard.
And since you're used to thingsbeing easy, that shift into I
actually have to work at thisnow feels gross.
So we don't want to do it, Right, but we learn best through
(14:16):
failure, right?
The best way for us to learn isto try and fail and get that
information and use it to youknow, improve our next effort at
it.
But when you've got that giftedkid brain, you know it's all or
nothing.
I'm either great at this or I'mnever doing it again Right.
And so helping kids tounderstand that not only is
(14:39):
failure helpful and helps uslearn, it's also unavoidable.
Nobody, uh, does thingsperfectly.
It's not possible, right?
I've been on I don't know acouple, at least a hundred
podcasts, right, and almost inevery single one I've made some
sort of mistake.
I've tripped over a word orsneezed or talked over the host
(15:03):
by accident.
I'm really sorry about thatright.
So, if you accept that perfectis impossible, it allows you to
embrace failure as a part of thejourney rather than something
that invalidates you from beingable to participate in future
things.
Nadja (15:20):
Thank you for reemphasizing this, and I'm
struggling to relax over herebecause I'm already nervous
about the audio and how it mightnot be perfect at the end of
our recording, Not because ofyour end, but just you know the
tools and the unpredictabilityand I really want to do a great
podcast for the listeners and so, yeah, if we only do things
(15:45):
that we would do perfectly, wewouldn't do anything Right.
So how can we get comfortablein failing?
Dr. Matt (15:58):
The only way out is through.
The only way to get comfortablefailing is to fail.
And this is where we get intothe language, and I always
associate this with Andy McNairhere in the States.
But the productive struggleright, we get into the language.
I always associate this withAndy McNair here in the States.
But the productive struggle?
Because one of the things, sortof foundationally one of the
(16:18):
laws of psychology, is theYerkes-Dodson law.
And the Yerkes-Dodson law saysthat everybody has an optimal
level of engagement to learn andit changes on the different
subject.
So if we're going to talk aboutbartending, my level is very
high because on the differentsubject.
So if we're going to talk aboutbartending, my level is very
high because I bartended foryears.
If we're going to talk about Idon't know ice lugeing I don't
(16:39):
know anything about ice lugeing.
Right, I have to start very lowat the bottom.
But the thing is is that ifthings are too easy, we don't
engage, if they're too hard, wecan't engage.
And what that looks like forkids in schools often takes the
shape of if you're so smart,johnny, do this calculus and
Johnny's like I can't docalculus.
(16:59):
I also don't want to do countto 10.
Can you teach me something inbetween those two things?
And administrators will saylike, oh, I wish I could take a
class that was so easy.
And I'm like the researchactually shows you.
Wouldn't we say we want thingsthat are easy, but we quickly
tap out of them.
We don't we stop engaging.
(17:19):
So the idea here is to make thestruggle productive.
We need to make it at theleading edge of learning right.
So if a kid says I want tolearn better math and they know
addition, subtraction,multiplication and division, but
they don't know algebra, wellthen that's what I'm going to
teach them.
I'm going to go to the nextlogical step.
(17:40):
And the problem is is thatschools are not built that way.
Skills schools are like theseare the steps you're going to
take and you're going to keeptaking those steps.
But I'm like but my steps areover there.
I want to take those steps, so,and they all end up at the same
place, right.
So why would we care?
But people do love theirsystems, don't they?
Nadja (18:03):
I noticed and maybe you can say something to that is
that a lot of gifted individualsand I'm speaking from my
experience over here, where wedon't or at the time was, didn't
really have gifted ed.
So you're smart, you get thingsdone quickly and then you don't
(18:26):
have a lot of homework becauseyou know the homework is
basically finishing up what youdo in class and you're already
done as a gifted kid.
So you go through school andit's relatively easy and of
course if you're highly giftedyou might be very bored.
But if you're just moderatelygifted, you know you just tag
along.
But then once you get to acertain level that could be high
(18:59):
school or even college, whereat some point you would need to
actually sit down and study, butyou've never learned that,
you've never done that and thenit gets hard.
At some point there's a dropoff where it gets hard and then
people they start questioningthemselves and their ability and
think you know, this place isnot for me.
Dr. Matt (19:13):
So there's actually a term for that in the field and
it's called the performancecliff.
I've done some research on thisand this is like Steve Pfeiffer
down in Florida.
He started this whole thing.
But I surveyed, you know, the300 or so people I've worked
with clinically, and I separatedthem into two groups people who
(19:33):
had regular education andpeople who had gifted education
and what we found?
The research tells us that theperformance cliff happens
somewhere between seventh gradeand 10th grade in the US, so
that's between 13 and 16.
And that's about when schoolgets harder than you are smart,
and you named it beautifully.
All of a sudden you have tostudy, all of a sudden you have
(19:56):
to actually do homework, and sothere's not only the concrete
skills of how the heck do Istudy I've never studied before
and also the soft skills of timemanagement, resilience, asking
for help, right.
I remember going to a mathteacher in high school and going
I've never said this to ateacher before, but I have no
idea what you're talking aboutand she said to me she's like
(20:19):
okay, and I was near tears.
I was like this is the firsttime I've never been able to
just get it.
Help me.
But kids need to feel safe, tobe that vulnerable.
I loved this teacher so I waslike, please help me, I need to
know.
(20:39):
And so the cool thing about theperformance cliff is that we
know it's going to happen.
It's one of the things we canactually anticipate.
So we can say to a giftedteacher or a parent or a
psychologist if we don'tintervene now, when they're
eight years old, this phenomenon, this performance cliff, is
likely to happen in five to 10years.
(21:01):
So let us intervene now.
And the biggest problem withbeing a psychologist, it's a
fundamentally reactive job.
I can't treat you fordepression until you're
depressed.
I can't treat you for panicattacks until you've had a panic
attack.
Right.
But this is one of those fewthings where I can say I know
(21:21):
this is going to happen to thispopulation.
Let me push the gifted educationnow.
Let me push the socialemotional learning now.
Education now.
Let me push the socialemotional learning now.
So they are at least have moretools in their toolbox for if
this thing happens.
Because when we looked at thedata set for people who received
gifted education, not only didfewer of them have problems, but
(21:47):
they rated those problems assmaller.
So if there is a quantifiableproof of concept for gifted
education.
It's this performance cliffthing right and that's I mean,
how cool is that?
I mean we know there's actualdata that this works.
Nadja (22:06):
Oh, and I have goosebumps because you know I'm already
thinking a step further.
You know, if these kids andteenagers somehow manage to push
through, as you said, thisperformance cliff, they somehow
manage to get further along,have deep interest in learning
(22:26):
and studying new things and theystart doing a PhD.
And I see people struggle then,especially when another
neurodivergence comes into play.
If somebody has ADHD, dyslexia,autism, and they learned to
(22:48):
cope with that in a way theyhave a coping mechanism in place
.
But then the intensity and thepressure culminate.
How do you say like comes alltogether in a pressure cooker of
this PhD?
No-transcript.
Dr. Matt (23:26):
Absolutely, and one of the things we see there is this
is one of the ways thatgiftedness can be a learning
difference and maybe even alearning disability, because if
you never have to learn how tostudy, you don't develop those
(23:46):
skills.
I mean, I have two youngersisters and they're both very
bright but they didn't do thegifted program.
And I remember being so enviousof my sister, katie, who is
just the most organized,detailed driven person.
She, she was making flashcardsin second grade.
She, just like she, knew how togrind and I never knew, learned
(24:08):
how to do that.
I could just flip the dancethrough it Right, just dance
through it and study for threeminutes before the test, get a
97 and call it a day.
And so when we take a psychologylens on this, one of the things
that we see is, in addition tothat intensity of the gifted
brain, when you areneurodivergent, you feel
(24:31):
different, you feel one of one,and it's very easy for our
brains to say, oh then,giftedness is the only thing
that's good about you.
You are gifted.
You don't have a gifted brain,you are gifted.
So part of being gifted isdoing well, succeeding, being
(24:52):
the best of the best.
If that gets taken away fromyou, whether it's at the
performance cliff or when you'regetting a PhD.
Not only are you strugglingacademically, but it can very
quickly spiral into anexistential crisis of who am I
if I'm not smart?
Right and to your point.
Right, you're still smart,you're still bright, but you've
(25:14):
reached a point where the thingsyou're being asked to do are
harder than you know how to do.
So it's a skill deficit, not apersonal flaw, but our brains
don't see that difference.
Nadja (25:30):
So would you then say, from your own experience as a
psychologist, that gifted peoplehave more existential crises?
Dr. Matt (25:38):
A thousand percent.
I mean parents will say to melike how is my nine-year-old
having an existential crisis?
Like, first off, have you readthe news in the last five years?
Everything is terrible and theearth is dying, so like, of
course they're going to have anexistential crisis.
Read the news in the last fiveyears everything is terrible and
the earth is dying, so like, ofcourse they're going to have an
existential crisis.
But it's also just when you cansee things broadly and you
(26:01):
connect to the most intensiveemotions, that combination is is
a rich field for existentialcrisis.
I mean, I had a kid call me once.
He was in gym class and he wasjust walking around the track
and he's like this is when thebig Australian wildfires were.
I think that was what 2020, ifI remember correctly.
(26:21):
He's like Australia's on fire,australia's on fire and I'm
walking around the track in gymin Ohio.
What do I do?
Like I have to do somethingabout this.
I'm like you can't buddy.
Like what are you going to geton a plane and fly to sydney?
You know, I don't think you canright now.
What's on fire?
He's like I have to dosomething right and and he was a
(26:41):
wreck for the rest of the day.
He failed the spanish testbecause he just couldn't get
this idea that australia was onfire out of his brain.
You know, and and that's thesort of thing.
All the gifted people who arelistening to this podcast right
now are nodding their heads, solike, of course, right, how
could you not get that out oftheir head?
Neurotypical people would belike, I mean, it's like kind of
sad, but why would you befreaking out about it?
(27:05):
And I'm like you.
Just you just don't get likethe intensity of that brain and
how it connects to things.
That's nobody's fault, it'sjust different.
Nadja (27:18):
And I get really emotional because, yeah, you
just mirrored back to me my ownexperience of the world and
what's going on right now inthis world.
It's very hard and what's goingon right now in this world is
very hard and, yeah, we all Iguess all gifted folks have to
somehow cope and deal with this.
Do you have a tip of how to getthrough the day like this?
(27:43):
When you're like thenine-year-old, and Australia is
on fire.
I mean, the world is on fire.
Dr. Matt (27:50):
The world is on fire, it's a real thing.
So there are three things right, and you know I tend to think
in threes, right?
So the first thing is youcannot pour from an empty cup.
So whatever good you're goingto do in this world, you cannot
do it if you don't have anything.
So you've got to sleep, you'vegot to eat your breakfast,
(28:12):
you've got to drink your water,you've got to take your meds.
Dr Matt says take your meds, gofor a stupid walk in the stupid
outside for your stupid mentalhealth, because at least you're
doing something, right?
So, first thing, take care ofyourself.
You are your best tool.
Second thing all the things areinterconnected.
It's a giant tapestry.
So if you clean up, if you pickup one piece of garbage in your
(28:36):
local park, that is a tinythread being undone of this
tapestry, right?
So you do your little good,because it's not little, it,
it's huge.
And everybody doing theirlittle parts make a wave of
change, right?
So not all change is big,because not all change can be
(28:56):
big, but maybe it's something assimple as you turn the lights
off before you leave your room,or you pick up the garbage, or
you hold the door for somebodywhose arms are full of groceries
.
Every little bit mattersbecause it is all connected.
And then the third thing isalways lead with your interests.
(29:17):
So if Australia is on fire, I'mnot a firefighter, I'm not
going to get a hose and jumpinto the bushes, I'm not going
to be good at that, but Iabsolutely can contribute mental
health services for people whoare displaced from the fire.
Helping doesn't always look likeone thing.
(29:37):
In fact, I would say it can't.
So if you're a good cook, makesome meals.
If you are somebody who cangather people, make sure you're
gathering blankets and shirtsand socks and underwear.
If you're somebody who hasfinancial means, buy crates of
water.
Everything matters.
But if you send it through yourinterests and your skill set,
(29:58):
not only is that helping goingto be more impactful for them,
it's going to feel easier foryou, right?
And it's amazing how oftenpeople who want to help find
themselves trying to help in away that is not aligned with
their skill set.
Right?
You don't want me to raisemoney for you.
I'm not very good at raisingmoney for people, but if you had
(30:20):
me come to your event and do areally powerful talk, people
would be inspired and moved andthen they would open their
checkbooks and write the checksand give us the money right.
So that's how I help, right.
Those are the ways I can dothat stuff and everybody has
their strengths and interestsand we need to play to those to
maximize the positive impactwe're making on this poor,
(30:44):
on-fire planet we happen to beliving on.
Nadja (30:49):
Thank you for giving me some perspective and hope, and I
want to use this topic to gointo our next subtopic, which is
imposter syndrome.
What if somebody says, well,the things everybody says I'm
good at I only got there by luck, and if they actually knew I'm
(31:11):
good at I only got there by luck, and if they actually knew I'm
actually just a fraud, and youalso have a very amazing talk on
this subject, so you're also anexpert on imposter syndrome,
which I understand is alsosomething that gifted people
suffer more from than theaverage population.
Dr. Matt (31:31):
Absolutely.
Imposter syndrome comes mostfrom people who either feel, or
are made to feel, different fromtheir environment.
So when you're neurodivergent,you absolutely feel different
and you are probably made tofeel different as well.
You think every kid growing upgets told they're going to go to
Harvard or Princeton or Oxford.
(31:53):
Right, most kids don't do that.
It's unusual.
So let's take that a stepfurther.
Imposter syndrome issimultaneously thinking the good
stuff you've done doesn'tmatter and that every failure
you make is proof that you're afraud and is very much your
(32:14):
brain lying to you.
It's not true, because it comesfrom this sense that I'm not
doing things like everybody elseis doing them.
So my way must be broken orflawed or reveal something about
me.
And what I always tell myclients is you know, imposter
syndrome is like an anxietydisorder.
It wants us to stay perfectlystill, it wants us to be stuck.
(32:37):
Every action you make provesyou're not an imposter.
You know I have days where Idon't think I'm a very good
therapist, but I show up toevery session because a true
imposter would cancel thesessions.
Right, and you know so.
(32:58):
One of the best tools againstimposter syndrome is what we
call bottom-up thinking.
So most people do top-downthinking.
Right, I have to be perfect andanything less than that is bad
right.
So if I take a test and I get a95 on a test, that's bad
because I got one problem wrong,because it should be 100.
But if you invert that, you'veclimbed up 95 steps of the
(33:21):
ladder.
You know 95% of the material.
That's amazing and that's amuch kinder way to look at
yourself.
So the imposter says well, I'mnot as good as this person, so
therefore I'm bad at it.
You might not be as good atthat person, but you're a damn
sight better than all theseother people beneath you.
We tend to only compare up,which makes us feel like frauds.
(33:43):
You know you were at saying youheard Scott Barry Kaufman talk.
Scott's incredible, right, I'mnever going to be Scott Barry
Kaufman ever, and that's I mean.
I've made my peace with thatRight.
But if I only think about beingScott, then I'm going to make
myself miserable.
And I'm ignoring the fact thatyou know Scott's a 99th
(34:03):
percentile speaker.
What I'm, maybe I'm a 93rdpercentile speaker, like I'm
definitely at the near the top.
I'm just not at the top.
But bottom of thinking sayslook how high I am on this list.
I wish I was at the top, but Ican give myself credit for how
far I've come.
That gives us a lot moreself-compassion, and
(34:26):
self-compassion is the bestdefense against imposter
syndrome.
Nadja (34:34):
Thank you for sharing this.
Is there anything?
I know quick fixes don't exist,but I want them Sorry.
But I'm looking for them.
No, but like so I'm listeningto you and I hear, or I'm
(34:55):
playing interactions I had withpeople and I know a lot of
bright young scientists and theyall suffer Not all, but a lot
of them suffer from impostersyndrome, mostly gifted women.
How can I, by just telling themyou're not an imposter?
(35:16):
I don't think that's going tofix it right.
They won't get it Like what.
Is there anything else I canmention, apart from the bottom
up versus top down thinking?
Dr. Matt (35:31):
Even sharing your story is helpful.
The very first time I gave thistalk on imposter syndrome,
susan Daniels, who's a giant inour field, is sitting in the
front row and at one point shewent yes, that's me.
And I, without thinking, wentyou're Susan Daniels, you can't
have imposter syndrome.
Oh my God, that's exactly whatI've been talking about.
Of course, because every MattZakreski has a Scott Barry
(35:55):
Kaufman, but every Scott BarryKaufman has what Neil deGrasse T
tyson, I don't know who's aboveScott.
Right, but when the one thingthat every bright, talented,
successful person has in commonis imposter syndrome, right,
Because because it's part of ourbrains.
Right, and and we're not payingattention to the hard work that
(36:19):
got us here, we're payingattention to the different path,
but different doesn't meanworse, nor does it mean better,
it just means different.
But different doesn't meanworse, nor does it mean better,
it just means different.
You know, and I think it's areally powerful way for us to to
normalize not onlyvulnerability at work, which is
so important, but alsonormalizing conversations about
(36:41):
imposter syndrome is a thingthat happens to you.
It's not some dark secretyou're carrying, because any
anxiety disorder makes you wantto feel like you're alone in the
universe.
Right, I'm the only personwho's ever thought I'm bad at
this?
No, you're not.
If you ask the room, you gettwo-thirds of the people go.
Oh yeah, no, I worry about thatall the time, every minute of
(37:03):
every day, right, and every timeI show up vulnerably, I know
I'm helping my clients, but I'malso helping myself because I'm
reminding myself yeah, you knowwhat the next time my imposter
syndrome spikes.
I've had this conversation,I've laid these neural tracks
and I know that it's just athing that happens to me.
(37:25):
And I know that it's just athing that happens to me.
It's not proof of something,any more than having a headache
is proof that you're sick, orhaving self-doubt means you're
bad at something.
Thoughts are just thoughts,right, and if we treat them as
that, then imposter syndrome isnothing to hook onto and just
sort of slides off our brain.
Nadja (37:51):
Thank you, I I need to turn on my power.
Dr. Matt (37:54):
Well, can I talk about what just happened, tech wise.
Nadja (37:59):
Yes, please.
Dr. Matt (37:59):
So so we're in the middle of our conversation and
all of a sudden, poof, you'regone, right, and I can see your
face and you look like you aredying a thousand deaths right
now, you know.
But I'm still here and you'restill here and this is still
going to be a great podcast,right?
So when we fail, when westruggle, our imposter syndrome,
our anxiety, spike, but thestory it's telling us is one of
(38:23):
catastrophe.
But is this a catastrophe?
Nadja (38:30):
No.
Dr. Matt (38:31):
It might feel that way , but I'm still here and you're
still here.
This is a salvageable podcast,right.
In fact, it's going to be adamn good podcast, right.
I was on one a couple of weeksago where we had a great hour
conversation and the host neverpressed record.
So I had to come back and do itagain, right, and even then,
while it was unpleasant, it, itworked.
(38:53):
It was fine.
Our brains always tell us doomand gloom.
That's not the story.
So if you're out there and youdo make mistakes, it's just part
of your learning journey.
Learn from it, move forwardfrom it and you'll find you're a
lot better off.
In terms of what else there isto say, I think it really just
(39:13):
comes down to being gentle withyourself.
You can apply bottom-upthinking to everything in your
life how you are as a person, apartner, a friend, a parent, a
professional, any skill you'redeveloping.
I mean, if you see yourself ona growth curve, you're going to
find that the struggles feel alot better.
They're still going to happen,but if you accept them as part
(39:36):
of the journey, then they're notgoing to impact us as much.
Nadja (39:41):
Thank you.
So where can people find you ifthey want to know more about
you?
And we put all the links intothe show notes, but maybe you
can just say what you offer andwhere they can find you.
Dr. Matt (40:05):
Well we taked about my two jobs, before.
If you are interested intherapy, it's the
NeurodiversityCollective.
com.
And if you're interested in mecoming out and speaking to your
organization, that'sDrMattZakreski.
com, and if you end up at one,we'll help you find the other
one.
And we have a really lovelyFacebook community Facebook.
com/ DrMattzakreski.
You know nerd humor, mentalhealth, gifted jokes.
It's very nerdy, it's veryniche, but I love it.
But yeah, I mean, I have aunique name, so just punch me
(40:26):
into Google and you'll find me.
Nadja (40:29):
Thank you, and therapy that you're offering, is that
only for kids or also for adults?
Dr. Matt (40:34):
It's for anybody.
It's difficult to make thatwork internationally, but I'd
rather you contact us and us tryto figure it out than say, oh,
I guess they can't help.
I mean, I can't promise it, butI'd rather us try.
Nadja (40:51):
Okay, thank you so much for elaborating and thank you so
much for being here and thankyou for letting me fail with my
tech and hopefully you don'thave to come back to rerecord.
And thank you so much and Ihope to see you soon again.
Dr. Matt (41:08):
That makes two of us, and you failed greatly.
I'm very proud of you.
Nadja (41:13):
Bye.
Dr. Matt (41:14):
Bye.
Nadja (41:15):
I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did
and learned something, and, asyou heard, my tech failed in the
back end and we made it through.
I learned to let go a littlebit of perfectionism today,
although the reason why thisepisode had been so long in the
making and hasn't been madepublicly available just yet was
(41:39):
because there's some tech issuesin the back.
I still have other episodesthat have been recorded, but I'm
still struggling with the techin the back.
I still have other episodesthat have been recorded, but I'm
still struggling with the techin the back end.
So thank you for your patienceand also thank you for listening
, even though not everything isperfect.
This is not, you know, a highpaid production audio experience
(42:00):
.
This podcast is solely made byme for you, without you know,
sponsors or big investmentcompanies or you know anything
flashy or fancy in the back justyet.
Maybe at some point, butcurrently it's really just me,
and sometimes a few people helpme here and there in the back
end, but I'm just still figuringout tech, and so I highly
(42:24):
appreciate you being herelistening and if you want to
support this show, please shareit with a friend.
Share it with somebody whocould use this information that
you heard today, and you canalso like and subscribe and also
liking, subscribing and leavinga review is highly appreciated
and will support this show.
And if you want to learn more,then you can find more
(42:46):
information on the website atgiftedunleashed.
com.
There you find also all theshow notes, all the links that
I've mentioned, and there's alsoa little spot to sign up for
the newsletter, so you're alwaysthe first person to know when a
new episode drops or when otherthings happen.
So thank you from the bottom ofmy heart for listening, for
being here and, yeah, sendingyou a big hug and see you next
(43:12):
time.
Bye,
Hello and welcome to Gifted Unleashed, where we talk
about the gifted and twiceexceptional brain and how it
affects our thinking andexperience of the world
differently.
There are a lot of stereotypesand stigma around the term
giftedness, and I'm here tochallenge those.
I'm here to raise awareness andto have a conversation around
the topic of what it means to bea gifted and 2e adult.
Common experience among giftedfolks is that they feel out of
(00:26):
place.
They don't quite fit in.
They're too sensitive, toointense, too emotional, too
overexcitable and too deepthinkers about the world and
about themselves.
So if you have been called toomuch about anything, then this
show is for you.
My name is Nadja.
I'm too loud, too colorful, toobubbly, too bossy and I love to
talk too much.
So welcome to my world and I'mso happy you're here.
(00:49):
Hello and welcome.
Today we have a treat of a guestfor you.
Today we have Matthew Zakreski,AKA Dr.
Matt, here on the podcast.
He is a high energy, creativeclinical psychologist and a
professional speaker whoutilizes an electric approach to
meet the specific needs of hisneurodivergent clients.
(01:11):
He is proud to serve the giftedcommunity as a consultant, a
professor, an author and also aresearcher.
He has spoken over 400 timesall over the world about
supporting neurodivergent kids.
Dr Matt is a member ofSupporting the Emotional Needs
of the Gifted, aka SENG, theNational Association for Gifted
Children, the New JerseyAssociation for Gifted Children
(01:33):
and Pennsylvania Association forGifted Education, and he is
also the co-founder of theNeurodiversity Collective.
I've met him last year at SENGand now he's here on the podcast
for you, and we talk about somany different things.
We talk about performance cliff, existential depression,
imposter syndrome and also thebottom-up thinking.
(01:54):
So, without further ado, here'sDr Matt.
I'm so excited to have you onthe podcast today.
Dr. Matt (02:03):
I mean, I was just.
I couldn't believe I hadn'tbeen on this one.
This is one of the ones that Ilistened to, so it's always a
little surreal to be on apodcast you listen to.
It's like watching yourself onTV.
So I'm thrilled to be here.
Nadja (02:18):
Oh, I'm so happy to hear and I'm honored to have a fan on
the show.
So thank you, and you know.
Likewise, I saw you speak atSENG in the summer and I really
enjoyed listening to your talkand I really would like to
highlight some of what you'vebeen talking then, but also
other topics.
But let's start with your ownstory.
(02:40):
I guess everybody working andproviding services in the gifted
field has a gifted story.
I guess everybody working andproviding services in the gifted
field has a gifted story.
Would you like to share yourgifted story?
Dr. Matt (02:51):
Oh, absolutely.
So yeah, I would say this workis personal and professional for
a lot of us, right?
And so I was identified asgifted in the second grade in
the United States and for me theway I was identified was they
gave us a workbook full of mathproblems and they told us to go
(03:12):
home and do pages one throughfour.
So I did pages one through fourand I said, well, that was
pretty easy, I'll just keepgoing.
And I did five, six, seven,finished, and I brought the book
back the next day and I gave itto my teacher.
She flips through it and shesaid, well, who did this for you
?
I said nobody, I did it.
And she was like, no, youdidn't.
I'm like, yes, I did.
(03:33):
And she sent me to theprincipal's office and you know,
I mean this was, you know, Imean, so it's not like I could
have looked up the answers.
So I spoke to the principal, Ispoke to my teacher, they called
my parents and that sort ofturned into me getting tested
for gifted and surprised I wasgifted.
But then I go back to theclassroom that day and they just
(03:57):
give me another math workbookand I remember distinctly at the
time thinking like, but I'vealready shown you I can do this.
Why are you giving me more ofit, right?
So I mean, when I do theadvocacy work that's part of my
job I think about that story alot.
I think about eight-year-old megoing.
(04:18):
But this isn't right and youknow, it always anchors me to
why I do this work in the firstplace and it always anchors me
to why I do this work in thefirst place, and was it the same
book or was it like a new book?
It was a different book, but itwas the same content, right?
So it's like basic addition andbasic subtraction, and here's
(04:39):
more basic addition and morebasic subtraction.
You couldn't find harder stuffor more interesting stuff, or
teach me multiplication, right?
It was just oh, hey, you canride a bike, Keep riding the
bike, you know?
Nadja (04:52):
it's like well yeah, so I guess you were then placed in
gifted ed, or.
Dr. Matt (05:02):
My school district didn't really have formal gifted
education.
There was the occasional pullout.
They would sometimes take thebright kids and send them on a
special field trip and it'sfunny, that's actually one of my
other gifted origin stories.
I think this was fifth grade.
They sent a bunch of us to aproblem solving, project-based
(05:25):
learning workshop at RutgersUniversity, which is in New
Jersey where I live, and theygave us a bunch of tools and
said the point is to get thisping pong ball to move down the
string.
And all you have is the pingpong ball, a cup, some rope and
two large wooden sticks.
And so everyone's trying tofind a way to build a slide.
(05:48):
And I'm looking at him like,hey guys, if we used the string
and tied it around a chair, wecould hook the ball to the cup
and then just move it around thechair.
And my teammates were likethat's a really good idea.
So we did it and we were thefirst team to finish.
And the people who weresupposed to be judging the
gifted kids problem solvinglooked at us and said, well, you
(06:09):
didn't do it right, do it again.
And I'm like, but we did do it,you never said we couldn't use
the chair, right Out of the box,thinkers.
I mean, I'm telling you.
(06:31):
And like and just like a littlebit of an anarchist, like just a
little right, you know, yeah,but so how does it then, you
know, integrate into your life?
I think a lot of people thatI've talked to, if they were
identified as kids, you know,and had some even gifted program
in school or you know wereidentified as kids.
They still didn't really knowwhat it means and kind of had to
rediscover giftedness once theyreached adulthood.
How was this for you?
(06:52):
Like when and how did youunderstand that giftedness is
more than being able to do mathpretty fast?
So when I was in graduate school, getting my doctorate in
psychology, and I startedresearching gifted, I started I
(07:12):
would read a chapter in a bookand I would come out of my
office and say to my wifethey're talking about me.
And then I would read anotherchapter like, oh my god, that's
me.
Every other chapter.
Oh my god, that's me too.
Every other chapter.
Oh my God, that's me too.
I mean, my parents are bothchild psychologists.
That's how they knew to get metested and that's how they knew
to help me get diagnosed withADHD.
(07:33):
But I really feel like I grewup in maybe the last generation
where we just thought gifted wasjust smart.
When I think about my life, Ithink about, like the social and
emotional asynchrony.
Right, I was definitely thatkid who was much more
comfortable talking to adults.
You know, I think about masking.
(07:55):
I'm I masked so much as a kid,right, just going along to
getting along, cause what elseare you going to do?
And you know, thinking aboutemotional intensity, thinking
about sensory stuff.
And so every time I read a bookfrom you know whether it's Jim
Webb or, you know, lindaSilverman or Susan Johnson or
(08:16):
whoever writes the book I readit and I look at it and go, ah,
damn, that's me.
And and it's when you seegiftedness as a brain difference
, not as just oh, look at howgood at math this kid is, then
it opens up so many more windowsto who you are and why you are
that way, and I think thatclarity is so helpful to a lot
(08:40):
of people in this community.
Nadja (08:42):
I think that's probably the most powerful realization,
right, that, as you said, youmask and you probably, as a kid,
didn't know you were masking.
You only realized later.
Dr. Matt (08:55):
No idea.
Well, and now kids will say, oh, I was masking at this party
and I'm like, oh my God, it's socool that you have that
language now, right, it's socool that you knew.
I wish I had known.
And, and I mean you know, oneof my go-to sayings is, you know
, do as best as you can untilyou know better than do better.
(09:17):
Right, that was Dr Maya Angelouand right, so I can't change
that.
I didn't know more as a kid,but I take that knowledge and
bring it to bear every time Iget to talk to a new kid or a
new client, because it's like,hey, you will benefit from
knowing what I know.
Nadja (09:41):
And I want you to know this now, rather than in your
late 20 the adult audience,where usually I think it's
parents discovering their owngiftedness through their
children, and so, for them, it'sa lot of very emotional emails
that I receive saying like, oh,I just found out, you know for
for this resource of thispodcast, because I didn't know I
(10:06):
wasn't alone in this.
So thank you for sharing your,your story and what it means,
and I guess that's also thereason why you then chose to to
work in this field I assume.
Dr. Matt (10:19):
Well, and it was, it was a parent of a kid who
actually turned me on to yourpodcast in the first place
because I tested her kid andshe's like I've been thinking
about this myself a lot.
I said, well, you should get anIQ test yourself.
And I was in Philadelphia atthe time and Gail Post is near
there and Gail's amazing.
She's great with gifted adults.
So I sent her to Gail and thetesting came back and, of course
(10:43):
, the mom is gifted too andshe's like I've been listening
to this podcast you need tolisten to, and I was just
starting to get into podcastsand it was like, oh, this is the
thing.
Nadja (10:53):
So oh, that's so amazing to hear these stories.
How you know, people listen towhat I'm doing here in my small
room at home and during thepandemic, right, we were just
doing things at home and justputting it out there in the big
wide internet.
And, yeah, hearing how otherpeople then receive the
(11:14):
information is really amazing.
So once you finished yourstudies and you just mentioned
you're a psychologist, You're DrMatt, and so what do you do and
what do you do in this space?
And then maybe we can go alittle bit deeper in different
topics.
Dr. Matt (11:35):
These days it's more like what don't I do?
So my primary job is atherapist.
I see 40 to 50 clients a week.
So my primary job is atherapist.
I see 40 to 50 clients a week.
I am also a professionalspeaker and probably do 60
speaking events a year, fromconferences to webinars to big
(11:55):
keynote presentations.
Most of those are here in theStates, but I got to go to ECHA
two years ago and I'm trying tofigure out if I can get there
this summer.
Money's a little tight to get toGreece.
It's a lot easier to go whenthey pay you to.
I was like.
I was like, oh, I should, Ishould do this every year.
(12:17):
And as I do more speaking andwriting, my book comes out in
the fall.
You know, I hired some morepeople for the practice so I can
send more clients their way,because there's so much need out
there, right?
So I'm sending clients theirway, trying to free up some time
in my own schedule so I canfinish my book and do more talks
, and I mean I'm certainly notbored, that's for sure.
(12:38):
I'm very busy.
Nadja (12:41):
Yeah, and one of your talks you also mentioned you
were a bartender.
You were also in a drama club,right Like you did all the
things.
Totally typical, gifted person,multi-potentialite oh my gosh,
the energy and kind of thisinner drive to just keep doing
(13:04):
things and doing new things and,yeah, using all the
opportunities.
So in your speaking event and Isaw you speak at saying and
your topic at the time wasfailure and how it is
fundamental, and I was reallyimpressed and I was really like,
oh, I wish somebody had told meabout this.
(13:25):
Would you like to share alittle bit why failure is so
important and what do you meanby failure?
Dr. Matt (13:34):
And I mean it's one of my favorite talks.
It's the talk I wish I couldgive to myself.
You know, like 10-year-old me,it's like, listen, it's OK to
fail, Because one of theproblems with being gifted is
what I like to call the curse ofcompetence.
Like, you're pretty good at alot of things, so you don't try
(13:55):
things that you're not good atand you cruise along at a
reasonable level of competenceuntil things get hard.
And since you're used to thingsbeing easy, that shift into I
actually have to work at thisnow feels gross.
So we don't want to do it, Right, but we learn best through
(14:16):
failure, right?
The best way for us to learn isto try and fail and get that
information and use it to youknow, improve our next effort at
it.
But when you've got that giftedkid brain, you know it's all or
nothing.
I'm either great at this or I'mnever doing it again Right.
And so helping kids tounderstand that not only is
(14:39):
failure helpful and helps uslearn, it's also unavoidable.
Nobody, uh, does thingsperfectly.
It's not possible, right?
I've been on I don't know acouple, at least a hundred
podcasts, right, and almost inevery single one I've made some
sort of mistake.
I've tripped over a word orsneezed or talked over the host
(15:03):
by accident.
I'm really sorry about thatright.
So, if you accept that perfectis impossible, it allows you to
embrace failure as a part of thejourney rather than something
that invalidates you from beingable to participate in future
things.
Nadja (15:20):
Thank you for reemphasizing this, and I'm
struggling to relax over herebecause I'm already nervous
about the audio and how it mightnot be perfect at the end of
our recording, Not because ofyour end, but just you know the
tools and the unpredictabilityand I really want to do a great
podcast for the listeners and so, yeah, if we only do things
(15:45):
that we would do perfectly, wewouldn't do anything Right.
So how can we get comfortablein failing?
Dr. Matt (15:58):
The only way out is through.
The only way to get comfortablefailing is to fail.
And this is where we get intothe language, and I always
associate this with Andy McNairhere in the States.
But the productive struggleright, we get into the language.
I always associate this withAndy McNair here in the States.
But the productive struggle?
Because one of the things, sortof foundationally one of the
(16:18):
laws of psychology, is theYerkes-Dodson law.
And the Yerkes-Dodson law saysthat everybody has an optimal
level of engagement to learn andit changes on the different
subject.
So if we're going to talk aboutbartending, my level is very
high because on the differentsubject.
So if we're going to talk aboutbartending, my level is very
high because I bartended foryears.
If we're going to talk about Idon't know ice lugeing I don't
(16:39):
know anything about ice lugeing.
Right, I have to start very lowat the bottom.
But the thing is is that ifthings are too easy, we don't
engage, if they're too hard, wecan't engage.
And what that looks like forkids in schools often takes the
shape of if you're so smart,johnny, do this calculus and
Johnny's like I can't docalculus.
(16:59):
I also don't want to do countto 10.
Can you teach me something inbetween those two things?
And administrators will saylike, oh, I wish I could take a
class that was so easy.
And I'm like the researchactually shows you.
Wouldn't we say we want thingsthat are easy, but we quickly
tap out of them.
We don't we stop engaging.
(17:19):
So the idea here is to make thestruggle productive.
We need to make it at theleading edge of learning right.
So if a kid says I want tolearn better math and they know
addition, subtraction,multiplication and division, but
they don't know algebra, wellthen that's what I'm going to
teach them.
I'm going to go to the nextlogical step.
(17:40):
And the problem is is thatschools are not built that way.
Skills schools are like theseare the steps you're going to
take and you're going to keeptaking those steps.
But I'm like but my steps areover there.
I want to take those steps, so,and they all end up at the same
place, right.
So why would we care?
But people do love theirsystems, don't they?
Nadja (18:03):
I noticed and maybe you can say something to that is
that a lot of gifted individualsand I'm speaking from my
experience over here, where wedon't or at the time was, didn't
really have gifted ed.
So you're smart, you get thingsdone quickly and then you don't
(18:26):
have a lot of homework becauseyou know the homework is
basically finishing up what youdo in class and you're already
done as a gifted kid.
So you go through school andit's relatively easy and of
course if you're highly giftedyou might be very bored.
But if you're just moderatelygifted, you know you just tag
along.
But then once you get to acertain level that could be high
(18:59):
school or even college, whereat some point you would need to
actually sit down and study, butyou've never learned that,
you've never done that and thenit gets hard.
At some point there's a dropoff where it gets hard and then
people they start questioningthemselves and their ability and
think you know, this place isnot for me.
Dr. Matt (19:13):
So there's actually a term for that in the field and
it's called the performancecliff.
I've done some research on thisand this is like Steve Pfeiffer
down in Florida.
He started this whole thing.
But I surveyed, you know, the300 or so people I've worked
with clinically, and I separatedthem into two groups people who
(19:33):
had regular education andpeople who had gifted education
and what we found?
The research tells us that theperformance cliff happens
somewhere between seventh gradeand 10th grade in the US, so
that's between 13 and 16.
And that's about when schoolgets harder than you are smart,
and you named it beautifully.
All of a sudden you have tostudy, all of a sudden you have
(19:56):
to actually do homework, and sothere's not only the concrete
skills of how the heck do Istudy I've never studied before
and also the soft skills of timemanagement, resilience, asking
for help, right.
I remember going to a mathteacher in high school and going
I've never said this to ateacher before, but I have no
idea what you're talking aboutand she said to me she's like
(20:19):
okay, and I was near tears.
I was like this is the firsttime I've never been able to
just get it.
Help me.
But kids need to feel safe, tobe that vulnerable.
I loved this teacher so I waslike, please help me, I need to
know.
(20:39):
And so the cool thing about theperformance cliff is that we
know it's going to happen.
It's one of the things we canactually anticipate.
So we can say to a giftedteacher or a parent or a
psychologist if we don'tintervene now, when they're
eight years old, this phenomenon, this performance cliff, is
likely to happen in five to 10years.
(21:01):
So let us intervene now.
And the biggest problem withbeing a psychologist, it's a
fundamentally reactive job.
I can't treat you fordepression until you're
depressed.
I can't treat you for panicattacks until you've had a panic
attack.
Right.
But this is one of those fewthings where I can say I know
(21:21):
this is going to happen to thispopulation.
Let me push the gifted educationnow.
Let me push the socialemotional learning now.
Education now.
Let me push the socialemotional learning now.
So they are at least have moretools in their toolbox for if
this thing happens.
Because when we looked at thedata set for people who received
gifted education, not only didfewer of them have problems, but
(21:47):
they rated those problems assmaller.
So if there is a quantifiableproof of concept for gifted
education.
It's this performance cliffthing right and that's I mean,
how cool is that?
I mean we know there's actualdata that this works.
Nadja (22:06):
Oh, and I have goosebumps because you know I'm already
thinking a step further.
You know, if these kids andteenagers somehow manage to push
through, as you said, thisperformance cliff, they somehow
manage to get further along,have deep interest in learning
(22:26):
and studying new things and theystart doing a PhD.
And I see people struggle then,especially when another
neurodivergence comes into play.
If somebody has ADHD, dyslexia,autism, and they learned to
(22:48):
cope with that in a way theyhave a coping mechanism in place
.
But then the intensity and thepressure culminate.
How do you say like comes alltogether in a pressure cooker of
this PhD?
No-transcript.
Dr. Matt (23:26):
Absolutely, and one of the things we see there is this
is one of the ways thatgiftedness can be a learning
difference and maybe even alearning disability, because if
you never have to learn how tostudy, you don't develop those
(23:46):
skills.
I mean, I have two youngersisters and they're both very
bright but they didn't do thegifted program.
And I remember being so enviousof my sister, katie, who is
just the most organized,detailed driven person.
She, she was making flashcardsin second grade.
She, just like she, knew how togrind and I never knew, learned
(24:08):
how to do that.
I could just flip the dancethrough it Right, just dance
through it and study for threeminutes before the test, get a
97 and call it a day.
And so when we take a psychologylens on this, one of the things
that we see is, in addition tothat intensity of the gifted
brain, when you areneurodivergent, you feel
(24:31):
different, you feel one of one,and it's very easy for our
brains to say, oh then,giftedness is the only thing
that's good about you.
You are gifted.
You don't have a gifted brain,you are gifted.
So part of being gifted isdoing well, succeeding, being
(24:52):
the best of the best.
If that gets taken away fromyou, whether it's at the
performance cliff or when you'regetting a PhD.
Not only are you strugglingacademically, but it can very
quickly spiral into anexistential crisis of who am I
if I'm not smart?
Right and to your point.
Right, you're still smart,you're still bright, but you've
(25:14):
reached a point where the thingsyou're being asked to do are
harder than you know how to do.
So it's a skill deficit, not apersonal flaw, but our brains
don't see that difference.
Nadja (25:30):
So would you then say, from your own experience as a
psychologist, that gifted peoplehave more existential crises?
Dr. Matt (25:38):
A thousand percent.
I mean parents will say to melike how is my nine-year-old
having an existential crisis?
Like, first off, have you readthe news in the last five years?
Everything is terrible and theearth is dying, so like, of
course they're going to have anexistential crisis.
Read the news in the last fiveyears everything is terrible and
the earth is dying, so like, ofcourse they're going to have an
existential crisis.
But it's also just when you cansee things broadly and you
(26:01):
connect to the most intensiveemotions, that combination is is
a rich field for existentialcrisis.
I mean, I had a kid call me once.
He was in gym class and he wasjust walking around the track
and he's like this is when thebig Australian wildfires were.
I think that was what 2020, ifI remember correctly.
(26:21):
He's like Australia's on fire,australia's on fire and I'm
walking around the track in gymin Ohio.
What do I do?
Like I have to do somethingabout this.
I'm like you can't buddy.
Like what are you going to geton a plane and fly to sydney?
You know, I don't think you canright now.
What's on fire?
He's like I have to dosomething right and and he was a
(26:41):
wreck for the rest of the day.
He failed the spanish testbecause he just couldn't get
this idea that australia was onfire out of his brain.
You know, and and that's thesort of thing.
All the gifted people who arelistening to this podcast right
now are nodding their heads, solike, of course, right, how
could you not get that out oftheir head?
Neurotypical people would belike, I mean, it's like kind of
sad, but why would you befreaking out about it?
(27:05):
And I'm like you.
Just you just don't get likethe intensity of that brain and
how it connects to things.
That's nobody's fault, it'sjust different.
Nadja (27:18):
And I get really emotional because, yeah, you
just mirrored back to me my ownexperience of the world and
what's going on right now inthis world.
It's very hard and what's goingon right now in this world is
very hard and, yeah, we all Iguess all gifted folks have to
somehow cope and deal with this.
Do you have a tip of how to getthrough the day like this?
(27:43):
When you're like thenine-year-old, and Australia is
on fire.
I mean, the world is on fire.
Dr. Matt (27:50):
The world is on fire, it's a real thing.
So there are three things right, and you know I tend to think
in threes, right?
So the first thing is youcannot pour from an empty cup.
So whatever good you're goingto do in this world, you cannot
do it if you don't have anything.
So you've got to sleep, you'vegot to eat your breakfast,
(28:12):
you've got to drink your water,you've got to take your meds.
Dr Matt says take your meds, gofor a stupid walk in the stupid
outside for your stupid mentalhealth, because at least you're
doing something, right?
So, first thing, take care ofyourself.
You are your best tool.
Second thing all the things areinterconnected.
It's a giant tapestry.
So if you clean up, if you pickup one piece of garbage in your
(28:36):
local park, that is a tinythread being undone of this
tapestry, right?
So you do your little good,because it's not little, it,
it's huge.
And everybody doing theirlittle parts make a wave of
change, right?
So not all change is big,because not all change can be
(28:56):
big, but maybe it's something assimple as you turn the lights
off before you leave your room,or you pick up the garbage, or
you hold the door for somebodywhose arms are full of groceries
.
Every little bit mattersbecause it is all connected.
And then the third thing isalways lead with your interests.
(29:17):
So if Australia is on fire, I'mnot a firefighter, I'm not
going to get a hose and jumpinto the bushes, I'm not going
to be good at that, but Iabsolutely can contribute mental
health services for people whoare displaced from the fire.
Helping doesn't always look likeone thing.
(29:37):
In fact, I would say it can't.
So if you're a good cook, makesome meals.
If you are somebody who cangather people, make sure you're
gathering blankets and shirtsand socks and underwear.
If you're somebody who hasfinancial means, buy crates of
water.
Everything matters.
But if you send it through yourinterests and your skill set,
(29:58):
not only is that helping goingto be more impactful for them,
it's going to feel easier foryou, right?
And it's amazing how oftenpeople who want to help find
themselves trying to help in away that is not aligned with
their skill set.
Right?
You don't want me to raisemoney for you.
I'm not very good at raisingmoney for people, but if you had
(30:20):
me come to your event and do areally powerful talk, people
would be inspired and moved andthen they would open their
checkbooks and write the checksand give us the money right.
So that's how I help, right.
Those are the ways I can dothat stuff and everybody has
their strengths and interestsand we need to play to those to
maximize the positive impactwe're making on this poor,
(30:44):
on-fire planet we happen to beliving on.
Nadja (30:49):
Thank you for giving me some perspective and hope, and I
want to use this topic to gointo our next subtopic, which is
imposter syndrome.
What if somebody says, well,the things everybody says I'm
good at I only got there by luck, and if they actually knew I'm
(31:11):
good at I only got there by luck, and if they actually knew I'm
actually just a fraud, and youalso have a very amazing talk on
this subject, so you're also anexpert on imposter syndrome,
which I understand is alsosomething that gifted people
suffer more from than theaverage population.
Dr. Matt (31:31):
Absolutely.
Imposter syndrome comes mostfrom people who either feel, or
are made to feel, different fromtheir environment.
So when you're neurodivergent,you absolutely feel different
and you are probably made tofeel different as well.
You think every kid growing upgets told they're going to go to
Harvard or Princeton or Oxford.
(31:53):
Right, most kids don't do that.
It's unusual.
So let's take that a stepfurther.
Imposter syndrome issimultaneously thinking the good
stuff you've done doesn'tmatter and that every failure
you make is proof that you're afraud and is very much your
(32:14):
brain lying to you.
It's not true, because it comesfrom this sense that I'm not
doing things like everybody elseis doing them.
So my way must be broken orflawed or reveal something about
me.
And what I always tell myclients is you know, imposter
syndrome is like an anxietydisorder.
It wants us to stay perfectlystill, it wants us to be stuck.
(32:37):
Every action you make provesyou're not an imposter.
You know I have days where Idon't think I'm a very good
therapist, but I show up toevery session because a true
imposter would cancel thesessions.
Right, and you know so.
(32:58):
One of the best tools againstimposter syndrome is what we
call bottom-up thinking.
So most people do top-downthinking.
Right, I have to be perfect andanything less than that is bad
right.
So if I take a test and I get a95 on a test, that's bad
because I got one problem wrong,because it should be 100.
But if you invert that, you'veclimbed up 95 steps of the
(33:21):
ladder.
You know 95% of the material.
That's amazing and that's amuch kinder way to look at
yourself.
So the imposter says well, I'mnot as good as this person, so
therefore I'm bad at it.
You might not be as good atthat person, but you're a damn
sight better than all theseother people beneath you.
We tend to only compare up,which makes us feel like frauds.
(33:43):
You know you were at saying youheard Scott Barry Kaufman talk.
Scott's incredible, right, I'mnever going to be Scott Barry
Kaufman ever, and that's I mean.
I've made my peace with thatRight.
But if I only think about beingScott, then I'm going to make
myself miserable.
And I'm ignoring the fact thatyou know Scott's a 99th
(34:03):
percentile speaker.
What I'm, maybe I'm a 93rdpercentile speaker, like I'm
definitely at the near the top.
I'm just not at the top.
But bottom of thinking sayslook how high I am on this list.
I wish I was at the top, but Ican give myself credit for how
far I've come.
That gives us a lot moreself-compassion, and
(34:26):
self-compassion is the bestdefense against imposter
syndrome.
Nadja (34:34):
Thank you for sharing this.
Is there anything?
I know quick fixes don't exist,but I want them Sorry.
But I'm looking for them.
No, but like so I'm listeningto you and I hear, or I'm
(34:55):
playing interactions I had withpeople and I know a lot of
bright young scientists and theyall suffer Not all, but a lot
of them suffer from impostersyndrome, mostly gifted women.
How can I, by just telling themyou're not an imposter?
(35:16):
I don't think that's going tofix it right.
They won't get it Like what.
Is there anything else I canmention, apart from the bottom
up versus top down thinking?
Dr. Matt (35:31):
Even sharing your story is helpful.
The very first time I gave thistalk on imposter syndrome,
susan Daniels, who's a giant inour field, is sitting in the
front row and at one point shewent yes, that's me.
And I, without thinking, wentyou're Susan Daniels, you can't
have imposter syndrome.
Oh my God, that's exactly whatI've been talking about.
Of course, because every MattZakreski has a Scott Barry
(35:55):
Kaufman, but every Scott BarryKaufman has what Neil deGrasse T
tyson, I don't know who's aboveScott.
Right, but when the one thingthat every bright, talented,
successful person has in commonis imposter syndrome, right,
Because because it's part of ourbrains.
Right, and and we're not payingattention to the hard work that
(36:19):
got us here, we're payingattention to the different path,
but different doesn't meanworse, nor does it mean better,
it just means different.
But different doesn't meanworse, nor does it mean better,
it just means different.
You know, and I think it's areally powerful way for us to to
normalize not onlyvulnerability at work, which is
so important, but alsonormalizing conversations about
(36:41):
imposter syndrome is a thingthat happens to you.
It's not some dark secretyou're carrying, because any
anxiety disorder makes you wantto feel like you're alone in the
universe.
Right, I'm the only personwho's ever thought I'm bad at
this?
No, you're not.
If you ask the room, you gettwo-thirds of the people go.
Oh yeah, no, I worry about thatall the time, every minute of
(37:03):
every day, right, and every timeI show up vulnerably, I know
I'm helping my clients, but I'malso helping myself because I'm
reminding myself yeah, you knowwhat the next time my imposter
syndrome spikes.
I've had this conversation,I've laid these neural tracks
and I know that it's just athing that happens to me.
(37:25):
And I know that it's just athing that happens to me.
It's not proof of something,any more than having a headache
is proof that you're sick, orhaving self-doubt means you're
bad at something.
Thoughts are just thoughts,right, and if we treat them as
that, then imposter syndrome isnothing to hook onto and just
sort of slides off our brain.
Nadja (37:51):
Thank you, I I need to turn on my power.
Dr. Matt (37:54):
Well, can I talk about what just happened, tech wise.
Nadja (37:59):
Yes, please.
Dr. Matt (37:59):
So so we're in the middle of our conversation and
all of a sudden, poof, you'regone, right, and I can see your
face and you look like you aredying a thousand deaths right
now, you know.
But I'm still here and you'restill here and this is still
going to be a great podcast,right?
So when we fail, when westruggle, our imposter syndrome,
our anxiety, spike, but thestory it's telling us is one of
(38:23):
catastrophe.
But is this a catastrophe?
Nadja (38:30):
No.
Dr. Matt (38:31):
It might feel that way , but I'm still here and you're
still here.
This is a salvageable podcast,right.
In fact, it's going to be adamn good podcast, right.
I was on one a couple of weeksago where we had a great hour
conversation and the host neverpressed record.
So I had to come back and do itagain, right, and even then,
while it was unpleasant, it, itworked.
(38:53):
It was fine.
Our brains always tell us doomand gloom.
That's not the story.
So if you're out there and youdo make mistakes, it's just part
of your learning journey.
Learn from it, move forwardfrom it and you'll find you're a
lot better off.
In terms of what else there isto say, I think it really just
(39:13):
comes down to being gentle withyourself.
You can apply bottom-upthinking to everything in your
life how you are as a person, apartner, a friend, a parent, a
professional, any skill you'redeveloping.
I mean, if you see yourself ona growth curve, you're going to
find that the struggles feel alot better.
They're still going to happen,but if you accept them as part
(39:36):
of the journey, then they're notgoing to impact us as much.
Nadja (39:41):
Thank you.
So where can people find you ifthey want to know more about
you?
And we put all the links intothe show notes, but maybe you
can just say what you offer andwhere they can find you.
Dr. Matt (40:05):
Well we taked about my two jobs, before.
If you are interested intherapy, it's the
NeurodiversityCollective.
com.
And if you're interested in mecoming out and speaking to your
organization, that'sDrMattZakreski.
com, and if you end up at one,we'll help you find the other
one.
And we have a really lovelyFacebook community Facebook.
com/ DrMattzakreski.
You know nerd humor, mentalhealth, gifted jokes.
It's very nerdy, it's veryniche, but I love it.
But yeah, I mean, I have aunique name, so just punch me
(40:26):
into Google and you'll find me.
Nadja (40:29):
Thank you, and therapy that you're offering, is that
only for kids or also for adults?
Dr. Matt (40:34):
It's for anybody.
It's difficult to make thatwork internationally, but I'd
rather you contact us and us tryto figure it out than say, oh,
I guess they can't help.
I mean, I can't promise it, butI'd rather us try.
Nadja (40:51):
Okay, thank you so much for elaborating and thank you so
much for being here and thankyou for letting me fail with my
tech and hopefully you don'thave to come back to rerecord.
And thank you so much and Ihope to see you soon again.
Dr. Matt (41:08):
That makes two of us, and you failed greatly.
I'm very proud of you.
Nadja (41:13):
Bye.
Dr. Matt (41:14):
Bye.
Nadja (41:15):
I hope you enjoyed this conversation as much as I did
and learned something, and, asyou heard, my tech failed in the
back end and we made it through.
I learned to let go a littlebit of perfectionism today,
although the reason why thisepisode had been so long in the
making and hasn't been madepublicly available just yet was
(41:39):
because there's some tech issuesin the back.
I still have other episodesthat have been recorded, but I'm
still struggling with the techin the back.
I still have other episodesthat have been recorded, but I'm
still struggling with the techin the back end.
So thank you for your patienceand also thank you for listening
, even though not everything isperfect.
This is not, you know, a highpaid production audio experience
(42:00):
.
This podcast is solely made byme for you, without you know,
sponsors or big investmentcompanies or you know anything
flashy or fancy in the back justyet.
Maybe at some point, butcurrently it's really just me,
and sometimes a few people helpme here and there in the back
end, but I'm just still figuringout tech, and so I highly
(42:24):
appreciate you being herelistening and if you want to
support this show, please shareit with a friend.
Share it with somebody whocould use this information that
you heard today, and you canalso like and subscribe and also
liking, subscribing and leavinga review is highly appreciated
and will support this show.
And if you want to learn more,then you can find more
(42:46):
information on the website atgiftedunleashed.
com.
There you find also all theshow notes, all the links that
I've mentioned, and there's alsoa little spot to sign up for
the newsletter, so you're alwaysthe first person to know when a
new episode drops or when otherthings happen.
So thank you from the bottom ofmy heart for listening, for
being here and, yeah, sendingyou a big hug and see you next
(43:12):
time.
Bye,
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