October 6, 2024 • 46 mins
Unlock the secrets to understanding and supporting gifted and twice exceptional individuals in our latest episode with Gail Post, a clinical psychologist with over 35 years of experience. Gail's expertise in intellectual and musical giftedness, coupled with her personal journey as a parent of two gifted children, brings invaluable insights to our discussion. We promise you'll gain a deeper understanding of the emotional and practical challenges faced by gifted individuals and their families, and learn strategies to foster their unique talents.
We explore the broad spectrum of giftedness, dispelling the myth that it’s solely about high IQ. Gail shares her expertise on recognizing talents in areas like creativity, mechanics, and the arts, and the critical importance of identifying twice exceptional children, who may also have ADHD, autism, or other learning differences. The conversation covers the emotional struggles gifted individuals face, such as social awkwardness and existential issues, and emphasizes the importance of validating these experiences. We'll also discuss the difficulties in identifying giftedness in girls and children from diverse backgrounds, and the challenges parents encounter during this journey.
Our deep dive into self-discovery for gifted adults and parents reveals how crucial it is to understand one's own needs and emotions to better support gifted children. We'll discuss the parallels between parenting and professional leadership, strategies for managing sensitivities in work environments, and the pressure to conform to societal expectations. Gail provides practical advice on self-advocacy and the importance of finding supportive communities. This episode is a must-listen for parents, educators, and anyone navigating the world of giftedness, offering compassion, guidance, and reassurance.
Would you like to work with me 1:1 as your gifted and 2e coach? Please send me an email at hello@giftedunleashed.com or find more information about my coaching offer on my website giftedunleashed.com/coaching
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Nadja (00:02):
Hello and welcome to Gifted Unleashed, where we talk
about the gifted and twiceexceptional brain and how it
affects our thinking andexperience of the world
differently.
There are a lot of stereotypesand stigma around the term
giftedness, and I'm here tochallenge those.
I'm here to raise awareness andto have a conversation around
the topic of what it means to bea gifted and twice exceptional
adult.
Common experience among giftedfolks is that they feel out of
(00:24):
place.
They don't quite fit in.
They're too sensitive, toointense, too emotional, too
overexcitable and too deepthinkers of the world and about
themselves.
So if you have been called toomuch of about anything, this
show is for you.
I'm Nadja.
I'm too loud, too colorful, toobubbly, too bossy and I love to
talk too much.
So welcome to my world.
I'm so happy you're here.
Too bossy, and I love to talktoo much.
(00:47):
So welcome to my world.
I'm so happy you're here.
So welcome everyone.
I'm glad to have you backlistening in today.
Today we have Gail Post on thepodcast.
She's a clinical psychologist,a doctor in clinical psychology.
She's a parenting coach andconsultant, workshop leader,
writer, parent of two giftedyoung adults and a clinical
(01:09):
associate professor ofpsychiatry at the University of
Pennsylvania and she has been inpractice for over 35 years and
she specializes in intellectualand musical giftedness and twice
exceptionalities.
She has written a lot ofdifferent blogs, chapters for
(01:29):
books, articles, and she hasalso written a very amazing book
which we're going to talk abouttoday.
It's called the GiftedParenting Journey a guide to
self-discovery and support forfamilies of gifted children.
Journey a guide toself-discovery and support for
families of gifted children.
So thank you so much, gail, forjoining today.
I'm so excited to have you onthe podcast.
Gail (01:51):
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited too.
This is so great.
Nadja (01:56):
So I hope I said everything correctly.
Is there anything you wouldlike to add, or is there
anything I misspelled?
Gail (02:02):
That's no, totally fine.
Nadja (02:05):
So, listening to your introduction, the topic you're
talking about and specializingin do you have a gifted story of
your own?
Can I address the elephant inthe room?
Are you a gifted adult?
Gail (02:23):
You know, I don't know, maybe probably.
You know I grew up in an erawhere they didn't really test
for giftedness, or at least Iwasn't.
I wasn't tested, but you know Iwas.
I was in, you know, theadvanced reading groups, all
that stuff.
I was a very I know that I wasgifted in music.
I started music at a young ageand performed at a high level
(02:46):
but did not go into that as acareer, so that was kind of a
given.
But intellectually I wasactually kind of an
underachiever in high school.
I know it sounds weird, I have aPhD and all, but I think what
Delisle refers to as a selectiveconsumer, that I picked and
chose what I liked, whatinterested me, the teachers I
(03:08):
liked, and I gave it everything,and all the other subjects I
kind of pushed by the wayside.
Of course, once I got intocollege I had to step up my game
a little bit, especially once Irealized I wanted to go into
clinical psychology and go tograd school for that.
Then that was a verycompetitive program and I had to
really learn how to study forthe first time and all those
(03:30):
skills that a lot of gifted kidsand other kids in general don't
have.
So my interest in this niche,in my clinical practice is
really based on years of.
First of all, after leavingsome of the agency type settings
that I had been in and workingin private practice.
(03:51):
I saw a lot of folks who werereally bright, high achieving
people and there were certaincharacteristics, sort of an
intensity or an impatience withthings not going as quickly or
perfectionism, all those adultqualities that kind of stand out
.
So that really piqued myinterest.
And then, raising two giftedchildren I got involved with a
(04:15):
local high school parent giftedparenting support group where we
advocated for change with howchildren were identified, how
services were delivered, all ofthat.
And once my youngest was aboutto graduate I decided I wanted
to keep advocating.
So I started a blog whichwasn't about myself, it wasn't
(04:36):
about children or stuff kind ofleaked in, but it was mostly
about parenting advocacy, giftedadults, gifted children, gifted
education.
And that blog, giftedChallenges, has been going on 11
and a half years now, so a longtime, and I try to put out a
post once a month if possible.
I also have a newsletter whereI send that out for people to
(04:59):
sign up, just with informationgoing on out in the gifted world
.
You know just different articlesthat I find interesting, and
I've been writing for a range ofdifferent publications.
I'm working on two researchpapers, one related to
resilience in gifted individualsand also the other based on
some research I did prior to mybook.
(05:20):
But mostly I'm, you know Iwrite about mental health issues
.
I also write on Medium, whichis a popular site, and I write
for a publication there calledWise and Well.
So just doing a lot of things,but my mission is really to get
the word out how gifted folkschildren, adults and parents of
the gifted really struggle andtheir needs are not recognized
(05:47):
struggle and their needs are notrecognized.
Nadja (05:48):
Reading through your book I felt there's so much love,
you know, coming through forpeople and especially the
parents.
So it's not another you knowtypical parenting book of like
how to deal with your children,but it's really the book for the
parents themselves and I couldreally feel how you would like
to share some like love to theparents, saying you know what
(06:11):
you do is enough and here aresome tools and you're not by
yourself and you know givingthem like a virtual hug.
Somehow I felt Did I read thatcorrectly?
Gail (06:24):
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, thank you.
I'm so glad that that cameacross.
I mean, it really was kind of alabor of love because I have
just encountered so many parentswho struggle.
They don't feel understood.
They feel like they can't eventalk about their child's
successes because they'reworried people are going to
think they're bragging.
Or if they complain, like youknow, if they complain like you
(06:45):
know, gee, my child really, youknow, is failing such and such a
class.
They're like, oh well, don'tworry about it because they're
going to go to Harvard or somenonsense like that, you know.
So it's really tough on parents.
Also, a lot of the guidance outthere in terms of child raising
is geared toward normative,typically developing children,
(07:05):
and it doesn't always fit in theparents of children.
They have kids who questioneverything, you know.
They're like little juniorlawyers who are always trying to
convince the parents otherwise.
Or they may have a lot ofintensity or they may have a lot
of rigidity, like not wantingto do certain things just
because it doesn't feel right.
Many have a lot of rigidity,like not wanting to do certain
(07:27):
things just because it doesn'tfeel right.
Many have a lot of empathy andsensitivity and feel for others
and have a lot of compassion andother kids have some impatience
.
They're frustrated that theirpeers don't get it.
Many don't fit in.
Often they have what is knownas asynchronous development,
where their maturity lags behindtheir intellectual abilities.
(07:48):
So people don't quite get it.
You know, their parents are inthe checkout line and their
child is reading the ingredientson a can of food, but they're
having a meltdown and thecheckout clerk is looking like
what you know.
That doesn't make sense.
So it's a challenge for parentsand they need to really
appreciate it.
Nadja (08:07):
So you mentioned already a few difficulties that gifted
parents face right If they havethe luxury to really understand
or getting the child tested.
I think that's also not alwaysa given, depending the
socioeconomic background, theschool area, I believe in the us
(08:27):
, for example.
In other countries that's notdone either.
So you do mention, though, thatparents usually have a good
understanding, that they havethe gut feeling, but sometimes
they really don't dare say outloud oh, my child is actually
(08:48):
gifted.
What would you say to thoseparents that are listening that
they say well, I'm not sure.
Gail (08:55):
Well, you know, first of all, the label is fraught with
complexity because there's oftenthis urgency about.
I need that label to validatewhat I see and there's so many
different definitions ofgiftedness out there.
Typically an IQ of 130 or aboveis kind of the standard
definition.
(09:15):
But there are many other formsof giftedness creativity,
mechanical skills, artistic andcreative skills.
I mean there's so many othermedical skills, artistic and
creative skills.
I mean there's so many otheraspects of it.
But parents are often lookingfor that validation and children
perform, even if they get IQtesting.
They perform differently on agiven day.
You know, if they're tired orcranky or hungry, they're not
(09:37):
going to do as well If theydon't like the person offering
the testing they're not going todo as well.
And things change as they getolder.
Some parents want to get theirchildren tested as young as
three, and they're just usuallynot ready for that.
It's, you know, they might geta sort of a rough idea at that
age, but it's.
There's a lot of developmentthat still needs to happen.
(09:57):
Often, the sweet spot fortesting is between about ages
six and eight, but you could gettested at any point, and it
just gives information aboutstrengths and weaknesses,
because we're not all at thesame level.
We all have our strengths, weall have things that we struggle
with, and I think it's reallygood information.
(10:19):
What you pointed out was reallyvalid.
It's a very expensive thing.
I personally don't do testinganymore.
I haven't done that in a longtime.
I think that people who doevaluations need to be doing
them on a regular basis.
I don't do that, so I put thataside but, it does cost a lot of
money when people get testedand insurance often doesn't
cover it.
(10:39):
As you mentioned, there are somestates in the US where the
school systems offer the optionfor gifted evaluations, but
every state is different hereand I don't know if it's the
same in different provinces orcountries, but it's.
You know, some states don'teven acknowledge the term gifted
and others have a legal mandatethat if your child needs to be
(11:03):
tested they will be tested, havea legal mandate that if your
child needs to be tested theywill be tested.
But some researchers now aresaying let's look at local norms
, let's look at how the childrenare in the context of their
classmates.
So, regardless of testing, ifyou have a teacher as a student
who is really exceptional andgrasps things quickly and eager
to learn all that it know, itdoesn't really matter if they're
(11:26):
tested or not.
They need some kind ofenrichment or acceleration,
otherwise they're going tobecome bored and miserable.
So in some ways the testingisn't always that necessary, but
it's informative, but again,not critical.
Nadja (11:40):
Yeah, you mentioned just something very important that
you know the gifted children isnot just a nice label to have
because, as you also mentionedin the book, you know sometimes
it can feel for others when yousay, oh, I'm the parent of a
gifted child, that they feellike that's a privilege and your
(12:02):
child will succeed in life.
But, as we both know right, itcomes with challenges.
The social, emotional needs ofthe gifted are different and, as
you mentioned, they get boredor just don't perform very well
in a regular classroom.
Right, right a regular classroomand also the asynchronous
(12:26):
development, or if children havea learning difference on top
ADHD right or autism, dyslexia,all of that.
That also makes it all morecomplex.
Gail (12:38):
Right, yeah, I mean, you bring up a good point Children
who are and adults who areidentified as twice exceptional
where they were gifted, but theyalso have a co-existing concern
that can work against theirgifted ability.
So someone with I shouldmention adhd or autism spectrum
disorder, they struggle with howthey use their gifted abilities
(13:01):
and their giftedness may bemasked and their, their
exceptionality, may be masked,since schools often don't
identify them.
I see this particularly withgirls, that girls are often
overlooked, because how thosetwo conditions are manifest is
really different depending onthe gender of the child.
Boys are very quickly calledout as having ADHD and in fact
(13:26):
maybe they don't have it, maybethey're just highly energetic
and they just want to run around.
They don't want to sit stillbecause school's tough, you know
, school forces kids to sitstill at their desks and a lot
of kids aren't ready for that.
So it does take some trainingand skill to kind of evaluate
that.
But what we know is a lot ofgifted kids are overlooked.
Certainly children who arepersons of color, grew up in
(13:49):
carverish homes, englishlanguage learners, children who
just don't should the teacher,you know, look gifted, whatever
that means.
So it could be that they're notsuper verbal, they don't talk a
blue streak, they have veryunique interests.
So they get overlooked.
And certainly theexceptionalities, everything
from learning disabilities to amental health condition, to ADHD
(14:10):
or autism they get overlooked.
Nadja (14:13):
So I do not have children , but reading through your book
and reading a lot about giftedchildren because there's a lot
or currently I believe, a littlebit more content targeted for
children I can relate as myformer self as a gifted child.
I wasn't identified in schoolbut I could really relate to the
(14:37):
story of not having to dohomework and then, once school
gets a little bit tougher, thenyou don't know how to sit down
and study.
So that's always veryinteresting for me to read these
stories and like, oh yeah, Iexperienced that and going
through this material so kind oflike healing my inner child, I
(15:01):
feel like yes, oh good.
Gail (15:03):
I'm so glad because it is such a reminder, because,
regardless of what was going onacademically in schools, most
gifted adults, when they lookback, they recognize some of the
emotional features they're notalways quite fitting in feeling
socially awkward, feeling likethey react stronger than their
peers to different things,struggling with their sense of
(15:26):
self, existential issues at anearly age, finding their sense
of identity, losing faith insome of the values that may have
been tossed their way when theywere younger.
Some stop going to religiousservices that their family goes
to or they may question you know, why is there war?
(15:47):
Why is there poverty?
Like they're just reallystruggling on a deep level and I
think, looking back, a lot ofgifted adults see that in their
childhood.
As I was writing this book,before I wrote it, I put
together an online survey andsent it out through some of the
gifted parenting groups andother websites and a lot of
(16:08):
responses got 428 responses,which was amazing, and people
answered some basic questionsand they also shared some of
their experiences in a veryheartfelt way way.
But it was interesting, as youtalk about not always knowing if
you're gifted that 25% of theparents recognize that they were
gifted even though they weren'tidentified.
(16:29):
Once they had a gifted child andthey could see like, oh, that's
not normal behavior, right?
You know, like I may have beentold that I talked before I was
one, or I may have been told bymy parents that you know was
reading before I was three andso I assumed that was normal
when my child started to do that, and then I see the other kids
don't.
So you know, we only have ourown personal experience to draw
(16:52):
on and you know, or what ourparents shared about our
experience growing up and thatjust seems normative.
And then a lot of times, youknow, the apple doesn't fall far
from the tree.
So gifted kids, often ifthey're biological children of
their parents, their parents arealso probably gifted or there's
a lot of other relatives orsiblings who are gifted.
So they kind of grew up in thisconglomerate of giftedness and
(17:16):
they just think that's the waythe world works.
But it's not.
It's really not.
And you know, even for myselfas a psychologist I should have
known better, but I didn't.
You know, raising my own kidsit's a whole different ball game
and I didn't always recognizecertain things.
I just thought, yeah, that'skind of normal, that's the way
it should be.
You know, because I also wasn'ta developmental pediatric
(17:38):
psychologist either, so I wasn'tas familiar with the younger
ages.
But then, as I saw what some ofthe other kids were like
volunteering in the schools whenthey were in elementary school,
I would see what the rest ofthe class was like.
Oh yeah, they are different,for better or worse.
So now we got to do somethingabout it and help them get
(17:58):
through this without it messingthem up.
Nadja (18:01):
Oh, I love that story and thank you for sharing this, and
I just want to point outbecause in your book you
mentioned that you know, whenparents of gifted children get
confronted with their ownpossible giftedness, that it's
usually the women that mightreject it the most.
Gail (18:20):
Right, I know that was what some of the research that I
read had pointed out thatthey're often like, no, it's
probably the dad, or it'sprobably some uncle or something
, but it couldn't be me Whereasthe men were almost like they're
more ready to jump on thebandwagon and be like yeah that
was probably good.
But yeah, yeah, typical Now.
Hopefully that's changedbecause some of that research
(18:41):
was from 20 years ago.
Hopefully women are morecapable of recognizing their own
strengths.
Nadja (18:47):
And I'm just going to refer to the first question.
I asked you if you're a giftedadult, and so probably very
likely.
But yeah, I think for me youknow using this term.
I think for me you know usingthis term, this label, for
myself it feels weird saying Iam a gifted adult.
It's not something you know.
(19:09):
One says, and I use it foradvocacy and I know that's also
a very big topic for you, right,Learning how to advocate for
your gifted children so they getthe support that they need.
(19:29):
So, and basically, me taking onthis icky label, still feeling
like okay, like Paula Probersaid, like barely gifted.
Gail (19:33):
I know, I love how she said that that was perfect.
Nadja (19:36):
So basically, but just saying it so that other people
may feel like more comfortableembracing it as they go into
adulthood, because giftedchildren grow up to be gifted
adults and the problems don't goaway, don't they right and in
my, in my clinical practice I Iwork mostly.
Gail (19:55):
I don't work with young children, I work with teens and
adults and a lot of the giftedadults I see you.
You know it's the same stuffand maybe they feel a little
more empowered, but it's thesame stuff of finding their
peers or finding a creativeoutlet or finding a job that
meets their needs.
It's really challenging, lotsof frustration that goes on and
(20:19):
recognizing those gifted quirksand needs.
You know, not in a negative way, but you know just differences
and needs.
It's so important to find theright fit and to be okay with
that.
Nadja (20:34):
Yeah, and what I really loved about, you know, the book
is that you focus really on theparents and say you know, good
parenting starts withself-discovery journey.
So it's not so much about.
Here are the tools to help, youknow, raise gifted children.
But it's really this let's gothrough this journey of
(20:58):
self-discovery, even if thissounds a little bit
counterintuitive because youmight have, you know, kind of an
emergency situation with yourchildren here.
Do you want to explain a littlebit why that is so important
and what are some of the stepsthat you recommend in this
self-discovery journey?
Gail (21:16):
Sure, some of that, I think, comes from my psychology
background.
Just that I feel that we learnif we can look inside.
That doesn't mean, like youknow, hours and hours and hours
of going over our childhood,necessarily, but it's more about
looking at what we need, whatwe're truly feeling, kind of
having that inner compass,understanding ourselves more and
(21:38):
then looking at how we wereraised, what our family of
origin taught us.
There are certain automatic,reflexive behaviors and beliefs
that it's like oh, that's justhow things are done, it's just
how we do things, and it may notbe how you want to parent or
how you want to just live as agifted adult, just because
that's how your parents raisedyou.
(22:00):
So, to really pick apart, youknow what influences me.
So, whether it's giftedparenting or just gifted
adulting, what influences me?
Is it my family of origin?
Is it my friends?
Is it my community?
Is it what I read about online?
Is it what my boss tells me todo, like what are the influences
(22:21):
and which ones seem to fit andwhich ones don't?
And to have that sort ofinternal recognition that, oh,
that doesn't feel right, that itisn't going to work, and, as a
parent, to have that recognitionabout yourself, that you know I
subscribe to certain type ofparenting approach versus
another, but also what workswith my child and what works in
(22:44):
the moment with my child.
So you might have a child, forexample, that responds well to
humor and you can sort of jokewith them and, you know, kind of
get them out of their stuckness.
But then there might be acertain point where you don't
want to use humor because thenthey're going to feel devalued,
like maybe they come home andthey're really crushed because
their best friend rejected themor they did poorly on a test.
(23:07):
That's not you know.
So to be attuned thatattunement is so important, to
be attuned to what your childneeds in the moment and to have
a whole toolbox of things.
You can use differentstrategies, approaches, but each
child is very different.
Having two children of my own, Iwas really able to understand
and actually be amazed at howdifferent one child is from the
(23:31):
other.
I think parents of onlychildren often don't have that
luxury to see that.
Well, you know, they may thinkeverything that's going on is my
fault, I'm doing it all wrong.
You know, as a parent, asopposed to no, they have a
certain temperament and that'swhat we have to work with here.
So it's it's complicated, butagain it's about looking deeply
(23:53):
and doing that through a varietyof different modalities.
So it could involve chattingwith close friends who you
really trust or a partner youreally trust.
Chatting with close friends whoyou really trust or a partner
you really trust.
It could involve reading,getting educated, learning lots
of different approaches.
It could be joining a group forgifted adults or parents of
gifted children and seeing whatthey think.
(24:15):
It could be talking to otherprofessionals a teacher, a
pediatrician, a physician, apsychotherapist who's trained in
this.
So just finding a range ofdifferent tools certainly
spiritual guidance can help somepeople creative outlets,
drawing about it, writing aboutit, singing about it, reading
(24:36):
about it, like whatever outletsyou have, the more insight you
have, because we're all growingand learning.
I mean, I'm still learning somuch at this point in my life
and it makes life fun to be ableto learn.
So it's not like we suddenlyfigure it all out by the time
we're 30.
That just does not happen.
Nadja (24:54):
Oh, we all think that, right, when we're small we're
children, we're like if I'm anadult, I will have it all
figured out.
Gail (25:02):
Right, exactly, boy.
It's not the way it is.
Nadja (25:05):
No, that's the joy of life to continuously learn and
grow.
And yeah, the self-discoverypiece.
I really love that and I alsosee you know my friends who are
parents finding out theirchildren are twice exceptional
(25:26):
trying to tell them that theirown gifted journey might be
really important for them totake on right now and not wait
until you know the child has allthe support and you have
figured it out for your childbecause it's usually in parallel
.
That works probably best whenyou learn also for yourself if
(25:48):
you're a gifted or twiceexceptional adult.
Gail (25:53):
I just said, it is quite a learning experience and one
that hopefully people canembrace and not feel bad about,
because it's just another way oflearning and not using
giftedness as an excuse or as abadge of honor in some way.
But it's just a fact, you know,just like your eye color or your
(26:13):
skills and talents in certainareas or the things that you
really struggle with.
It's just something to workwith and to figure out how to
make it grow and blossom in ahealthy way, rather than pushing
it away or pretending itdoesn't exist.
I mean, I've actually readarticles online not as much
lately but years ago wherepeople would be like I'm not
(26:34):
going to allow my child to begifted, that's going to mess
them up and so they're notgifted and I don't go along with
it, or things like giftednessis only an elitist concept, it's
only for parents who, you know,think too highly of their
children, like all thisnegativity as it goes to.
There are cognitive differencesacross populations and and
(26:59):
that's just the way it is andjust to work with it, just like
if a child required specialeducation where they had
cognitive deficits that made itharder for them to learn, you
wouldn't say that doesn't existand we're not going to help them
.
Nadja (27:14):
I mean, it's really the same thing currently, what I
hear in my surrounding is not somuch the elitist, it's just
learning for the first timeabout the concept, actually
learning that this exists.
And they, of course they heardthe term, but they had all this
(27:36):
prejudice and would never assumethis label were for them or
their children.
And now they're confronted withthis term, what it means to be
different, getting someexplanation for their own
experiences, but it's usually alittle bit of an emotional
roller coaster in the beginning.
(27:56):
Yes, exactly.
Gail (27:59):
It's really hard to take on the label yourself and also
to deal with your child and toknow what to deal with your
child and to know what to say toyour child.
So some parents don't telltheir child at all.
They won't explain it to them.
Others, you know will, might gooverboard, like celebrate like
yeah, you're gifted, but it'syou know.
You don't say yay, you knowyou're.
(28:20):
You know I don't know what.
You know you're.
You're a certain height.
I remember my youngest child.
I was like, what do you wantfor your 16th birthday?
And he's like I want to be sixfoot two.
I'm like it doesn't work thatway.
You know, like you know.
But I mean cause you know youcan't ignore just the reality of
how people are, physically,emotionally, cognitively and who
(28:41):
better than us, as parents, toexplain it to our children?
Because if we don't, someoneelse will, or they'll figure it
out themselves in a way thatdoesn't make sense.
So they they're not if it's notexplained to them in a very
matter of fact.
Yeah, you know you scored acertain amount on a test, so
you're going to be in a programat school that's going to
probably be more fun andenriching, but you know it's not
(29:03):
a big deal.
It's just you know, like youalready know, that you're good
at math or something.
You know like it's just asmatter of fact as it doesn't
make you better than anyone else.
You're not better than theother kids, but you know, you
see how some kids, you know, runfaster or draw more accurate
pictures in art class orwhatever.
It is Like you see that andmaybe you're good at, you know
(29:25):
really good at math, and that'sokay, you know, go for it.
But does it make you special orbetter than anyone else?
And to really drive in thatconcept that it's it's okay.
Otherwise they're going towonder like, oh, is this what?
What I need to do in life is tobe a super achiever or people
will respect me where I have to.
(29:46):
If I don't get an A on everytest, I'm not going to be gifted
anymore when it has nothing todo with grades and all that.
So there's a lot ofmisconceptions that children
will pick up.
It's sort of like sex education,right?
Like if you don't teach yourchildren stuff, they're going to
figure it out in ways thatmaybe you don't want them to.
So kind of the same thing.
I hadn't really thought of thatuntil now.
(30:07):
But you know, like with giftededucation, it's up to us to kind
of guide our child.
Or to point out, like gee, whenyou were playing with the kid
next door, you sounded kind ofmad at them, you know, because
they didn't figure out the rulesof the game as quickly as you.
But you need to develop somepatience that it might be harder
for them.
Or I noticed when we went tothis family party that you, you
(30:32):
know, just played on your iPadthe whole time.
You wouldn't interact.
And I know it's hard sometimesto get along with other kids,
you don't know, but it's a goodskill to learn.
So let's talk about what'llhelp you next time so that you
figure out ways to feel morecomfortable reaching out.
So again, it's up to us to kindof guide them, but we need to
(30:53):
understand ourselves and our ownbeliefs and what's important.
Nadja (30:56):
Yeah, I can only say that's so true.
And you know, when I read yourbook and I am, you know I'm
actually an HR professional andI work with leadership topics
and being a great leader alsostarts with self discovery and
(31:19):
you know, working on yourself asa leader before you start
managing a team, so I was like,oh, that's parallel to, you know
, parenting, and so I thinkpeople can really draw these
parallels that you know,everything that you want to do
and improve in your life startswith yourself and your
(31:39):
self-discovery.
And especially if you're anadult who didn't learn this from
your parents in this great way,as you described, this great
parenting, you have to do thisfor yourself in adulthood right
To kind of relearn and learn allof these lessons.
Gail (32:00):
And how to you know, like you say, you're in HR.
I mean that's so complicated.
How do I work collaborativelywith my colleagues?
How do I get along at work?
How do I push for promotionwithout stepping on toes or
making enemies?
You know that's a whole nothertopic that's so interesting to
me.
That is work life.
(32:21):
And again, getting back to thegender differences you brought
up about identifying giftedness,that women are much less likely
to promote themselves in a worksetting unless they feel like
they are 100% solid and 100%sure of what they're doing,
whereas men in some of thestudies out there can be maybe
about 70% there.
(32:42):
They don't have to feel like Ihave it down 100% before I
promote myself.
And you know, come to my bossesand ask for a raise or ask for a
different position.
So it's, I think, aboutrecognizing our strengths that
we bring to the table in a worksetting as well.
Like you're saying, in terms ofleadership, we have to be
honest with ourselves,respectful of people we lead, or
(33:05):
they're not going to respect us.
They're gonna, they're gonnarespond out of fear, but they're
not going to really learn fromus.
Nadja (33:14):
Is there something you could draw parallels from, like
advocacy for your children, butalso advocacy for yourself at
work?
Gail (33:41):
I'm learning through these conditions or I have, you know,
I have creative ideas that comeup when I'm in certain settings
, like just to kind of advocatefor learning needs.
They may not be able toaccommodate it, but to just put
it out there and that also showsa level of self-awareness.
So, for example, I don't knowhow it is for you in Switzerland
, but here in the States overthe past 10, 15 years in a lot
(34:02):
of businesses there's been thisconcept of open office setting,
open concept where people aremaybe at desks together but
there's no doors, there's no wayto go off privately.
And I think that finallyrealizing that doesn't help
productivity.
There's way too manydistractions, it's too communal,
(34:26):
it's not going to help people,especially if they have work.
They have to focus on thecomputer about writing or
whatever it's going to take awayfrom them.
But I think that's a conceptthat will go by the wayside.
But if that's the case andsomeone works in an open concept
works situation, they might beable to say you know, is it okay
(34:47):
if I go over to that you knowconference room when it's not in
use, just because I need peaceand quiet to get my work done?
That kind of a a thing, thebest you can advocate for your
own productivity.
Nadja (34:59):
I would assume that most caring employers, if they can
accommodate it yeah that'sobviously not true of every work
setting, certainly that's justand also like what I see is, you
know, light sensitivity, noisesensitivity.
So open offices pose a otherlevel of complexity, intensity
(35:24):
and overwhelm.
And, if you can, you know ifyour employer allows for a day
working from home, for example,or something like that, or noise
, noise-canceling headphones.
But it's a trial and error.
So I think it's also somethingto be bold and try out and then
(35:47):
be bold and ask for it, becauseif nobody else does it, it's
usually uncomfortable to be thefirst to ask.
Gail (35:56):
Yes, exactly, and I think if it's done in a kind
collaborative team buildingcapacity like you know I know I
work best when X, y and Z are inplace then it's hard to argue
with that.
But you know some work settingsare not great and people suffer
(36:17):
and it's really unfortunate.
But even if you know a giftedsettings are not great and
people suffer and it's reallyunfortunate.
But even if you know a giftedadult is in a work setting that
is difficult for them because ofthe pressures they experience,
you know to at least do thingsto support themselves outside of
work or at work, to find peers,to find friends, find people to
have lunch with.
You know something to kind oftake the edge off.
Nadja (36:40):
What I also encountered is I'm also working as a coach,
as a gifted and neurodivergentcoach.
There's two types of clientsthe clients that come and would
like to learn more about theirgiftedness and how they can live
an authentic life true tothemselves.
(37:01):
And then there's clients who,now that I know, I will easily
identify them and tell them thatthis is not the way I work.
But there's clients that come,they know they're neurodivergent
but they want to coach just tomask more.
They want to present more quoteunquote neurotypical.
(37:24):
They want to fit in more.
How can I fit in more at work?
How can I fit in, you know,just more in the world and
present as a neurotypical personor a non-neurodivergent person,
and I think that's, in myopinion, quite sad and not
living through to themselves.
Gail (37:45):
Yeah, it's really a tough dilemma because so many have
suffered already throughouttheir childhood feeling
different, feeling misunderstood, and then they have this
dilemma as adults, like when canI truly be myself?
Or when do I have to try tofigure out how to conform with,
say, the work culture, thesocial milieu, whatever I mean.
(38:08):
It's really, it's really atough dilemma and I think that
affects, you know, everybody.
But it's certainly harder forfolks who are neurodivergent to
figure out.
Okay, who can I be?
How can I be authentic andgenuine wherever I am, even if
it might make some peopleuncomfortable, or is there a way
I can educate them a little bitif they don't understand?
Nadja (38:31):
Yeah, finding safe spaces to start unmasking a little bit
and of course we cannot, as youmentioned, we cannot walk
unmasked all the time usually inour world, unfortunately but
also knowing when is it safe tobe myself and when is it
(38:52):
appropriate to hold a little bitback and finding this path and
the concept of masking.
Gail (38:58):
It certainly happens a lot with neurodivergent folks.
Hold a little bit back andfinding this and you know the
the concept of masking it's.
It certainly happens a lot withneurodivergent folks.
But also, just you know,straight out, gifted folks,
without twice exception, inhobby, often had to mask who
they were, what their interestswere Once they hit middle school
.
Once they hit, you know, 12 or13 years old, they had a choice.
If I don't, do I fit in and tonedown my interests, my
(39:22):
personality, my energy, myenthusiasm, or do I just, you
know, find at least, hopefully,a small group of peers who will
accept me as who I am, even ifI'm not going to be the popular
kid?
It's a really tough one and Ithink it's manifest differently
with boys and girls andcertainly now with children who
(39:43):
are non-binary.
But even prior to that, justgender wise girls often feel
pressure to be attractive andfit some feminine stereotype
which often means I can't benerdy, I can't be good at math,
I can't be a high achiever or Iwon't be popular.
(40:03):
And boys often feel pressure tobe tough and masculine and hide
their feelings and not besensitive.
A lot of studies have foundthat for middle school age kids,
gifted boys who are alsoathletic and who have leadership
skills tend to fare the best,that sometimes their you know
(40:24):
kind of nerdy giftedness isexcused and accepted, whereas
those who are not athletic ordon't have strong leadership
skills really suffer.
Nadja (40:33):
Hmm.
So I hope with our conversationwe can change a little bit at
the also the self-esteem ofgifted adults and gifted parents
, and through them, also togifted children, and challenge
these gender norms.
Is there anything else that youwould like to share with us,
(40:56):
something that you wish peopleknew?
Something you wish you knewearlier?
Gail (41:02):
That's a great question.
I just think a lot of this isabout really accepting who you
are and it's okay to bedifferent.
It's okay to not fit the normand to find people who will
support that in your life.
I know sometimes people are indifficult jobs or neighborhoods
(41:25):
where differences are notaccepted and they can't always
change that up.
But if there's some way toconnect, there's a great online
community out there these days.
So even if you don't havepeople in your neighborhood who
connect with you, you can findpeople online many times and
just to appreciate it's okay tobe different.
You don't have to feel that way.
Nadja (41:48):
Yeah, thank you, and it's also great to hear that for
myself.
Thank you so much for sharingthat.
If people would like to findout more about you, connect with
you.
Where is it best for them tofind you on the internet.
Gail (42:03):
I'm in a bunch of places.
My website is just my name,gailpostcom and
g-a-i-l-p-o-s-tcom, and there'slinks to other ways of
connecting.
But I also have my blog, whichis Gifted Challenges, and again,
there's lots of articles there,as well as articles that I
(42:24):
don't write, but other thingsthat I find interesting that are
through my newsletter, orthings I post on Facebook,
twitter and Instagram.
I don't do as much on Instagram.
It doesn't seem like a mediumthat really works for me.
I don't even do that much onTwitter anymore, but I have a
Facebook page, not my personalGail Post page, but my Gifted
Challenges page that, if you'reon Facebook, might be worth
(42:47):
checking out Because, again, Ido post lots of different
articles there.
And you know, if anybody'sinterested in my book, all the
different bookseller sites onAmazon, barnes, noble, on the
publisher site Gifted Unlimitedand other smaller sites, but
mostly, hopefully, if you wantto connect, I'd be happy to talk
(43:07):
to you further.
I do offer psychotherapy,although I don't offer
psychotherapy abroad, but I doin the States and I have
something called SciPack so Ican see people through
telehealth do in the states andI have something called sci-pack
so I can see people throughtelehealth, and it's about 40
different us states at thispoint authorized to do that, and
I do coaching, we'll say, forparents, but also some gifted
(43:27):
adults you know, worldwide aswell.
So anyway, I appreciate youhaving me here.
This has been lovely to chatwith with you and learn more and
also get your perspective onthings.
Nadja (43:40):
Thank you so much for joining and I will link all the
links that you have provided inthe show notes so people can
just go down and click, so theydon't need to go and Google so
they find it.
And you just mentioned youoffer therapy in the US, in
about 40 states, throughtelemedicine.
Is this for children or alsofor adults?
Gail (44:02):
Adults.
Once in a while I will see anadolescent, but I usually don't
like to do that across statelines, just because if they need
to have other resources, Iwouldn't know resources in their
area.
Nadja (44:16):
That's great to know.
Gifted adult therapy in the USthrough telemedicine.
They can come and reach out toyou.
Be careful what you wish for.
You might get a lot of calls ohgosh, and coaching worldwide.
Gail (44:31):
On my website there's a link to the thing called
SidePack P-S-Y-P-A-C-T.
That shows what states haveagreed to that legislative
concept so that they allow forthat.
But not every state does.
Okay.
Nadja (44:47):
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much, gail, forbeing here, thank you for
sharing, thank you for your time, for your insight, for your
lovely book and thank you forthe listeners to tuning in and
we'll see you next time.
Thank you.
Gail (45:01):
Thank you, take care.
Bye.
Nadja (45:05):
I hope you enjoyed this episode and you learned
something new.
And if you did, please like,subscribe and leave a review.
And if you feel like somebodyelse that you know could profit
from this, please send them alink to this show.
And if you want to learn more,you find everything at
giftedunleashedcom and you canalso subscribe to the newsletter
(45:27):
there, so you will always be upto date for new things that are
coming, and all the informationthat we mentioned today in the
episode will be on the shownotes for the episode.
So everything is right therefor you and, with that said, I
wish you a wonderful day and Isee you next time.
Bye.
Hello and welcome to Gifted Unleashed, where we talk
about the gifted and twiceexceptional brain and how it
affects our thinking andexperience of the world
differently.
There are a lot of stereotypesand stigma around the term
giftedness, and I'm here tochallenge those.
I'm here to raise awareness andto have a conversation around
the topic of what it means to bea gifted and twice exceptional
adult.
Common experience among giftedfolks is that they feel out of
(00:24):
place.
They don't quite fit in.
They're too sensitive, toointense, too emotional, too
overexcitable and too deepthinkers of the world and about
themselves.
So if you have been called toomuch of about anything, this
show is for you.
I'm Nadja.
I'm too loud, too colorful, toobubbly, too bossy and I love to
talk too much.
So welcome to my world.
I'm so happy you're here.
Too bossy, and I love to talktoo much.
(00:47):
So welcome to my world.
I'm so happy you're here.
So welcome everyone.
I'm glad to have you backlistening in today.
Today we have Gail Post on thepodcast.
She's a clinical psychologist,a doctor in clinical psychology.
She's a parenting coach andconsultant, workshop leader,
writer, parent of two giftedyoung adults and a clinical
(01:09):
associate professor ofpsychiatry at the University of
Pennsylvania and she has been inpractice for over 35 years and
she specializes in intellectualand musical giftedness and twice
exceptionalities.
She has written a lot ofdifferent blogs, chapters for
(01:29):
books, articles, and she hasalso written a very amazing book
which we're going to talk abouttoday.
It's called the GiftedParenting Journey a guide to
self-discovery and support forfamilies of gifted children.
Journey a guide toself-discovery and support for
families of gifted children.
So thank you so much, gail, forjoining today.
I'm so excited to have you onthe podcast.
Gail (01:51):
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited too.
This is so great.
Nadja (01:56):
So I hope I said everything correctly.
Is there anything you wouldlike to add, or is there
anything I misspelled?
Gail (02:02):
That's no, totally fine.
Nadja (02:05):
So, listening to your introduction, the topic you're
talking about and specializingin do you have a gifted story of
your own?
Can I address the elephant inthe room?
Are you a gifted adult?
Gail (02:23):
You know, I don't know, maybe probably.
You know I grew up in an erawhere they didn't really test
for giftedness, or at least Iwasn't.
I wasn't tested, but you know Iwas.
I was in, you know, theadvanced reading groups, all
that stuff.
I was a very I know that I wasgifted in music.
I started music at a young ageand performed at a high level
(02:46):
but did not go into that as acareer, so that was kind of a
given.
But intellectually I wasactually kind of an
underachiever in high school.
I know it sounds weird, I have aPhD and all, but I think what
Delisle refers to as a selectiveconsumer, that I picked and
chose what I liked, whatinterested me, the teachers I
(03:08):
liked, and I gave it everything,and all the other subjects I
kind of pushed by the wayside.
Of course, once I got intocollege I had to step up my game
a little bit, especially once Irealized I wanted to go into
clinical psychology and go tograd school for that.
Then that was a verycompetitive program and I had to
really learn how to study forthe first time and all those
(03:30):
skills that a lot of gifted kidsand other kids in general don't
have.
So my interest in this niche,in my clinical practice is
really based on years of.
First of all, after leavingsome of the agency type settings
that I had been in and workingin private practice.
(03:51):
I saw a lot of folks who werereally bright, high achieving
people and there were certaincharacteristics, sort of an
intensity or an impatience withthings not going as quickly or
perfectionism, all those adultqualities that kind of stand out
.
So that really piqued myinterest.
And then, raising two giftedchildren I got involved with a
(04:15):
local high school parent giftedparenting support group where we
advocated for change with howchildren were identified, how
services were delivered, all ofthat.
And once my youngest was aboutto graduate I decided I wanted
to keep advocating.
So I started a blog whichwasn't about myself, it wasn't
(04:36):
about children or stuff kind ofleaked in, but it was mostly
about parenting advocacy, giftedadults, gifted children, gifted
education.
And that blog, giftedChallenges, has been going on 11
and a half years now, so a longtime, and I try to put out a
post once a month if possible.
I also have a newsletter whereI send that out for people to
(04:59):
sign up, just with informationgoing on out in the gifted world
.
You know just different articlesthat I find interesting, and
I've been writing for a range ofdifferent publications.
I'm working on two researchpapers, one related to
resilience in gifted individualsand also the other based on
some research I did prior to mybook.
(05:20):
But mostly I'm, you know Iwrite about mental health issues
.
I also write on Medium, whichis a popular site, and I write
for a publication there calledWise and Well.
So just doing a lot of things,but my mission is really to get
the word out how gifted folkschildren, adults and parents of
the gifted really struggle andtheir needs are not recognized
(05:47):
struggle and their needs are notrecognized.
Nadja (05:48):
Reading through your book I felt there's so much love,
you know, coming through forpeople and especially the
parents.
So it's not another you knowtypical parenting book of like
how to deal with your children,but it's really the book for the
parents themselves and I couldreally feel how you would like
to share some like love to theparents, saying you know what
(06:11):
you do is enough and here aresome tools and you're not by
yourself and you know givingthem like a virtual hug.
Somehow I felt Did I read thatcorrectly?
Gail (06:24):
Oh, thank you.
Yeah, thank you.
I'm so glad that that cameacross.
I mean, it really was kind of alabor of love because I have
just encountered so many parentswho struggle.
They don't feel understood.
They feel like they can't eventalk about their child's
successes because they'reworried people are going to
think they're bragging.
Or if they complain, like youknow, if they complain like you
(06:45):
know, gee, my child really, youknow, is failing such and such a
class.
They're like, oh well, don'tworry about it because they're
going to go to Harvard or somenonsense like that, you know.
So it's really tough on parents.
Also, a lot of the guidance outthere in terms of child raising
is geared toward normative,typically developing children,
(07:05):
and it doesn't always fit in theparents of children.
They have kids who questioneverything, you know.
They're like little juniorlawyers who are always trying to
convince the parents otherwise.
Or they may have a lot ofintensity or they may have a lot
of rigidity, like not wantingto do certain things just
because it doesn't feel right.
Many have a lot of rigidity,like not wanting to do certain
(07:27):
things just because it doesn'tfeel right.
Many have a lot of empathy andsensitivity and feel for others
and have a lot of compassion andother kids have some impatience
.
They're frustrated that theirpeers don't get it.
Many don't fit in.
Often they have what is knownas asynchronous development,
where their maturity lags behindtheir intellectual abilities.
(07:48):
So people don't quite get it.
You know, their parents are inthe checkout line and their
child is reading the ingredientson a can of food, but they're
having a meltdown and thecheckout clerk is looking like
what you know.
That doesn't make sense.
So it's a challenge for parentsand they need to really
appreciate it.
Nadja (08:07):
So you mentioned already a few difficulties that gifted
parents face right If they havethe luxury to really understand
or getting the child tested.
I think that's also not alwaysa given, depending the
socioeconomic background, theschool area, I believe in the us
(08:27):
, for example.
In other countries that's notdone either.
So you do mention, though, thatparents usually have a good
understanding, that they havethe gut feeling, but sometimes
they really don't dare say outloud oh, my child is actually
(08:48):
gifted.
What would you say to thoseparents that are listening that
they say well, I'm not sure.
Gail (08:55):
Well, you know, first of all, the label is fraught with
complexity because there's oftenthis urgency about.
I need that label to validatewhat I see and there's so many
different definitions ofgiftedness out there.
Typically an IQ of 130 or aboveis kind of the standard
definition.
(09:15):
But there are many other formsof giftedness creativity,
mechanical skills, artistic andcreative skills.
I mean there's so many othermedical skills, artistic and
creative skills.
I mean there's so many otheraspects of it.
But parents are often lookingfor that validation and children
perform, even if they get IQtesting.
They perform differently on agiven day.
You know, if they're tired orcranky or hungry, they're not
(09:37):
going to do as well If theydon't like the person offering
the testing they're not going todo as well.
And things change as they getolder.
Some parents want to get theirchildren tested as young as
three, and they're just usuallynot ready for that.
It's, you know, they might geta sort of a rough idea at that
age, but it's.
There's a lot of developmentthat still needs to happen.
(09:57):
Often, the sweet spot fortesting is between about ages
six and eight, but you could gettested at any point, and it
just gives information aboutstrengths and weaknesses,
because we're not all at thesame level.
We all have our strengths, weall have things that we struggle
with, and I think it's reallygood information.
(10:19):
What you pointed out was reallyvalid.
It's a very expensive thing.
I personally don't do testinganymore.
I haven't done that in a longtime.
I think that people who doevaluations need to be doing
them on a regular basis.
I don't do that, so I put thataside but, it does cost a lot of
money when people get testedand insurance often doesn't
cover it.
(10:39):
As you mentioned, there are somestates in the US where the
school systems offer the optionfor gifted evaluations, but
every state is different hereand I don't know if it's the
same in different provinces orcountries, but it's.
You know, some states don'teven acknowledge the term gifted
and others have a legal mandatethat if your child needs to be
(11:03):
tested they will be tested, havea legal mandate that if your
child needs to be tested theywill be tested.
But some researchers now aresaying let's look at local norms
, let's look at how the childrenare in the context of their
classmates.
So, regardless of testing, ifyou have a teacher as a student
who is really exceptional andgrasps things quickly and eager
to learn all that it know, itdoesn't really matter if they're
(11:26):
tested or not.
They need some kind ofenrichment or acceleration,
otherwise they're going tobecome bored and miserable.
So in some ways the testingisn't always that necessary, but
it's informative, but again,not critical.
Nadja (11:40):
Yeah, you mentioned just something very important that
you know the gifted children isnot just a nice label to have
because, as you also mentionedin the book, you know sometimes
it can feel for others when yousay, oh, I'm the parent of a
gifted child, that they feellike that's a privilege and your
(12:02):
child will succeed in life.
But, as we both know right, itcomes with challenges.
The social, emotional needs ofthe gifted are different and, as
you mentioned, they get boredor just don't perform very well
in a regular classroom.
Right, right a regular classroomand also the asynchronous
(12:26):
development, or if children havea learning difference on top
ADHD right or autism, dyslexia,all of that.
That also makes it all morecomplex.
Gail (12:38):
Right, yeah, I mean, you bring up a good point Children
who are and adults who areidentified as twice exceptional
where they were gifted, but theyalso have a co-existing concern
that can work against theirgifted ability.
So someone with I shouldmention adhd or autism spectrum
disorder, they struggle with howthey use their gifted abilities
(13:01):
and their giftedness may bemasked and their, their
exceptionality, may be masked,since schools often don't
identify them.
I see this particularly withgirls, that girls are often
overlooked, because how thosetwo conditions are manifest is
really different depending onthe gender of the child.
Boys are very quickly calledout as having ADHD and in fact
(13:26):
maybe they don't have it, maybethey're just highly energetic
and they just want to run around.
They don't want to sit stillbecause school's tough, you know
, school forces kids to sitstill at their desks and a lot
of kids aren't ready for that.
So it does take some trainingand skill to kind of evaluate
that.
But what we know is a lot ofgifted kids are overlooked.
Certainly children who arepersons of color, grew up in
(13:49):
carverish homes, englishlanguage learners, children who
just don't should the teacher,you know, look gifted, whatever
that means.
So it could be that they're notsuper verbal, they don't talk a
blue streak, they have veryunique interests.
So they get overlooked.
And certainly theexceptionalities, everything
from learning disabilities to amental health condition, to ADHD
(14:10):
or autism they get overlooked.
Nadja (14:13):
So I do not have children , but reading through your book
and reading a lot about giftedchildren because there's a lot
or currently I believe, a littlebit more content targeted for
children I can relate as myformer self as a gifted child.
I wasn't identified in schoolbut I could really relate to the
(14:37):
story of not having to dohomework and then, once school
gets a little bit tougher, thenyou don't know how to sit down
and study.
So that's always veryinteresting for me to read these
stories and like, oh yeah, Iexperienced that and going
through this material so kind oflike healing my inner child, I
(15:01):
feel like yes, oh good.
Gail (15:03):
I'm so glad because it is such a reminder, because,
regardless of what was going onacademically in schools, most
gifted adults, when they lookback, they recognize some of the
emotional features they're notalways quite fitting in feeling
socially awkward, feeling likethey react stronger than their
peers to different things,struggling with their sense of
(15:26):
self, existential issues at anearly age, finding their sense
of identity, losing faith insome of the values that may have
been tossed their way when theywere younger.
Some stop going to religiousservices that their family goes
to or they may question you know, why is there war?
(15:47):
Why is there poverty?
Like they're just reallystruggling on a deep level and I
think, looking back, a lot ofgifted adults see that in their
childhood.
As I was writing this book,before I wrote it, I put
together an online survey andsent it out through some of the
gifted parenting groups andother websites and a lot of
(16:08):
responses got 428 responses,which was amazing, and people
answered some basic questionsand they also shared some of
their experiences in a veryheartfelt way way.
But it was interesting, as youtalk about not always knowing if
you're gifted that 25% of theparents recognize that they were
gifted even though they weren'tidentified.
(16:29):
Once they had a gifted child andthey could see like, oh, that's
not normal behavior, right?
You know, like I may have beentold that I talked before I was
one, or I may have been told bymy parents that you know was
reading before I was three andso I assumed that was normal
when my child started to do that, and then I see the other kids
don't.
So you know, we only have ourown personal experience to draw
(16:52):
on and you know, or what ourparents shared about our
experience growing up and thatjust seems normative.
And then a lot of times, youknow, the apple doesn't fall far
from the tree.
So gifted kids, often ifthey're biological children of
their parents, their parents arealso probably gifted or there's
a lot of other relatives orsiblings who are gifted.
So they kind of grew up in thisconglomerate of giftedness and
(17:16):
they just think that's the waythe world works.
But it's not.
It's really not.
And you know, even for myselfas a psychologist I should have
known better, but I didn't.
You know, raising my own kidsit's a whole different ball game
and I didn't always recognizecertain things.
I just thought, yeah, that'skind of normal, that's the way
it should be.
You know, because I also wasn'ta developmental pediatric
(17:38):
psychologist either, so I wasn'tas familiar with the younger
ages.
But then, as I saw what some ofthe other kids were like
volunteering in the schools whenthey were in elementary school,
I would see what the rest ofthe class was like.
Oh yeah, they are different,for better or worse.
So now we got to do somethingabout it and help them get
(17:58):
through this without it messingthem up.
Nadja (18:01):
Oh, I love that story and thank you for sharing this, and
I just want to point outbecause in your book you
mentioned that you know, whenparents of gifted children get
confronted with their ownpossible giftedness, that it's
usually the women that mightreject it the most.
Gail (18:20):
Right, I know that was what some of the research that I
read had pointed out thatthey're often like, no, it's
probably the dad, or it'sprobably some uncle or something
, but it couldn't be me Whereasthe men were almost like they're
more ready to jump on thebandwagon and be like yeah that
was probably good.
But yeah, yeah, typical Now.
Hopefully that's changedbecause some of that research
(18:41):
was from 20 years ago.
Hopefully women are morecapable of recognizing their own
strengths.
Nadja (18:47):
And I'm just going to refer to the first question.
I asked you if you're a giftedadult, and so probably very
likely.
But yeah, I think for me youknow using this term.
I think for me you know usingthis term, this label, for
myself it feels weird saying Iam a gifted adult.
It's not something you know.
(19:09):
One says, and I use it foradvocacy and I know that's also
a very big topic for you, right,Learning how to advocate for
your gifted children so they getthe support that they need.
(19:29):
So, and basically, me taking onthis icky label, still feeling
like okay, like Paula Probersaid, like barely gifted.
Gail (19:33):
I know, I love how she said that that was perfect.
Nadja (19:36):
So basically, but just saying it so that other people
may feel like more comfortableembracing it as they go into
adulthood, because giftedchildren grow up to be gifted
adults and the problems don't goaway, don't they right and in
my, in my clinical practice I Iwork mostly.
Gail (19:55):
I don't work with young children, I work with teens and
adults and a lot of the giftedadults I see you.
You know it's the same stuffand maybe they feel a little
more empowered, but it's thesame stuff of finding their
peers or finding a creativeoutlet or finding a job that
meets their needs.
It's really challenging, lotsof frustration that goes on and
(20:19):
recognizing those gifted quirksand needs.
You know, not in a negative way, but you know just differences
and needs.
It's so important to find theright fit and to be okay with
that.
Nadja (20:34):
Yeah, and what I really loved about, you know, the book
is that you focus really on theparents and say you know, good
parenting starts withself-discovery journey.
So it's not so much about.
Here are the tools to help, youknow, raise gifted children.
But it's really this let's gothrough this journey of
(20:58):
self-discovery, even if thissounds a little bit
counterintuitive because youmight have, you know, kind of an
emergency situation with yourchildren here.
Do you want to explain a littlebit why that is so important
and what are some of the stepsthat you recommend in this
self-discovery journey?
Gail (21:16):
Sure, some of that, I think, comes from my psychology
background.
Just that I feel that we learnif we can look inside.
That doesn't mean, like youknow, hours and hours and hours
of going over our childhood,necessarily, but it's more about
looking at what we need, whatwe're truly feeling, kind of
having that inner compass,understanding ourselves more and
(21:38):
then looking at how we wereraised, what our family of
origin taught us.
There are certain automatic,reflexive behaviors and beliefs
that it's like oh, that's justhow things are done, it's just
how we do things, and it may notbe how you want to parent or
how you want to just live as agifted adult, just because
that's how your parents raisedyou.
(22:00):
So, to really pick apart, youknow what influences me.
So, whether it's giftedparenting or just gifted
adulting, what influences me?
Is it my family of origin?
Is it my friends?
Is it my community?
Is it what I read about online?
Is it what my boss tells me todo, like what are the influences
(22:21):
and which ones seem to fit andwhich ones don't?
And to have that sort ofinternal recognition that, oh,
that doesn't feel right, that itisn't going to work, and, as a
parent, to have that recognitionabout yourself, that you know I
subscribe to certain type ofparenting approach versus
another, but also what workswith my child and what works in
(22:44):
the moment with my child.
So you might have a child, forexample, that responds well to
humor and you can sort of jokewith them and, you know, kind of
get them out of their stuckness.
But then there might be acertain point where you don't
want to use humor because thenthey're going to feel devalued,
like maybe they come home andthey're really crushed because
their best friend rejected themor they did poorly on a test.
(23:07):
That's not you know.
So to be attuned thatattunement is so important, to
be attuned to what your childneeds in the moment and to have
a whole toolbox of things.
You can use differentstrategies, approaches, but each
child is very different.
Having two children of my own, Iwas really able to understand
and actually be amazed at howdifferent one child is from the
(23:31):
other.
I think parents of onlychildren often don't have that
luxury to see that.
Well, you know, they may thinkeverything that's going on is my
fault, I'm doing it all wrong.
You know, as a parent, asopposed to no, they have a
certain temperament and that'swhat we have to work with here.
So it's it's complicated, butagain it's about looking deeply
(23:53):
and doing that through a varietyof different modalities.
So it could involve chattingwith close friends who you
really trust or a partner youreally trust.
Chatting with close friends whoyou really trust or a partner
you really trust.
It could involve reading,getting educated, learning lots
of different approaches.
It could be joining a group forgifted adults or parents of
gifted children and seeing whatthey think.
(24:15):
It could be talking to otherprofessionals a teacher, a
pediatrician, a physician, apsychotherapist who's trained in
this.
So just finding a range ofdifferent tools certainly
spiritual guidance can help somepeople creative outlets,
drawing about it, writing aboutit, singing about it, reading
(24:36):
about it, like whatever outletsyou have, the more insight you
have, because we're all growingand learning.
I mean, I'm still learning somuch at this point in my life
and it makes life fun to be ableto learn.
So it's not like we suddenlyfigure it all out by the time
we're 30.
That just does not happen.
Nadja (24:54):
Oh, we all think that, right, when we're small we're
children, we're like if I'm anadult, I will have it all
figured out.
Gail (25:02):
Right, exactly, boy.
It's not the way it is.
Nadja (25:05):
No, that's the joy of life to continuously learn and
grow.
And yeah, the self-discoverypiece.
I really love that and I alsosee you know my friends who are
parents finding out theirchildren are twice exceptional
(25:26):
trying to tell them that theirown gifted journey might be
really important for them totake on right now and not wait
until you know the child has allthe support and you have
figured it out for your childbecause it's usually in parallel
.
That works probably best whenyou learn also for yourself if
(25:48):
you're a gifted or twiceexceptional adult.
Gail (25:53):
I just said, it is quite a learning experience and one
that hopefully people canembrace and not feel bad about,
because it's just another way oflearning and not using
giftedness as an excuse or as abadge of honor in some way.
But it's just a fact, you know,just like your eye color or your
(26:13):
skills and talents in certainareas or the things that you
really struggle with.
It's just something to workwith and to figure out how to
make it grow and blossom in ahealthy way, rather than pushing
it away or pretending itdoesn't exist.
I mean, I've actually readarticles online not as much
lately but years ago wherepeople would be like I'm not
(26:34):
going to allow my child to begifted, that's going to mess
them up and so they're notgifted and I don't go along with
it, or things like giftednessis only an elitist concept, it's
only for parents who, you know,think too highly of their
children, like all thisnegativity as it goes to.
There are cognitive differencesacross populations and and
(26:59):
that's just the way it is andjust to work with it, just like
if a child required specialeducation where they had
cognitive deficits that made itharder for them to learn, you
wouldn't say that doesn't existand we're not going to help them
.
Nadja (27:14):
I mean, it's really the same thing currently, what I
hear in my surrounding is not somuch the elitist, it's just
learning for the first timeabout the concept, actually
learning that this exists.
And they, of course they heardthe term, but they had all this
(27:36):
prejudice and would never assumethis label were for them or
their children.
And now they're confronted withthis term, what it means to be
different, getting someexplanation for their own
experiences, but it's usually alittle bit of an emotional
roller coaster in the beginning.
(27:56):
Yes, exactly.
Gail (27:59):
It's really hard to take on the label yourself and also
to deal with your child and toknow what to deal with your
child and to know what to say toyour child.
So some parents don't telltheir child at all.
They won't explain it to them.
Others, you know will, might gooverboard, like celebrate like
yeah, you're gifted, but it'syou know.
You don't say yay, you knowyou're.
(28:20):
You know I don't know what.
You know you're.
You're a certain height.
I remember my youngest child.
I was like, what do you wantfor your 16th birthday?
And he's like I want to be sixfoot two.
I'm like it doesn't work thatway.
You know, like you know.
But I mean cause you know youcan't ignore just the reality of
how people are, physically,emotionally, cognitively and who
(28:41):
better than us, as parents, toexplain it to our children?
Because if we don't, someoneelse will, or they'll figure it
out themselves in a way thatdoesn't make sense.
So they they're not if it's notexplained to them in a very
matter of fact.
Yeah, you know you scored acertain amount on a test, so
you're going to be in a programat school that's going to
probably be more fun andenriching, but you know it's not
(29:03):
a big deal.
It's just you know, like youalready know, that you're good
at math or something.
You know like it's just asmatter of fact as it doesn't
make you better than anyone else.
You're not better than theother kids, but you know, you
see how some kids, you know, runfaster or draw more accurate
pictures in art class orwhatever.
It is Like you see that andmaybe you're good at, you know
(29:25):
really good at math, and that'sokay, you know, go for it.
But does it make you special orbetter than anyone else?
And to really drive in thatconcept that it's it's okay.
Otherwise they're going towonder like, oh, is this what?
What I need to do in life is tobe a super achiever or people
will respect me where I have to.
(29:46):
If I don't get an A on everytest, I'm not going to be gifted
anymore when it has nothing todo with grades and all that.
So there's a lot ofmisconceptions that children
will pick up.
It's sort of like sex education,right?
Like if you don't teach yourchildren stuff, they're going to
figure it out in ways thatmaybe you don't want them to.
So kind of the same thing.
I hadn't really thought of thatuntil now.
(30:07):
But you know, like with giftededucation, it's up to us to kind
of guide our child.
Or to point out, like gee, whenyou were playing with the kid
next door, you sounded kind ofmad at them, you know, because
they didn't figure out the rulesof the game as quickly as you.
But you need to develop somepatience that it might be harder
for them.
Or I noticed when we went tothis family party that you, you
(30:32):
know, just played on your iPadthe whole time.
You wouldn't interact.
And I know it's hard sometimesto get along with other kids,
you don't know, but it's a goodskill to learn.
So let's talk about what'llhelp you next time so that you
figure out ways to feel morecomfortable reaching out.
So again, it's up to us to kindof guide them, but we need to
(30:53):
understand ourselves and our ownbeliefs and what's important.
Nadja (30:56):
Yeah, I can only say that's so true.
And you know, when I read yourbook and I am, you know I'm
actually an HR professional andI work with leadership topics
and being a great leader alsostarts with self discovery and
(31:19):
you know, working on yourself asa leader before you start
managing a team, so I was like,oh, that's parallel to, you know
, parenting, and so I thinkpeople can really draw these
parallels that you know,everything that you want to do
and improve in your life startswith yourself and your
(31:39):
self-discovery.
And especially if you're anadult who didn't learn this from
your parents in this great way,as you described, this great
parenting, you have to do thisfor yourself in adulthood right
To kind of relearn and learn allof these lessons.
Gail (32:00):
And how to you know, like you say, you're in HR.
I mean that's so complicated.
How do I work collaborativelywith my colleagues?
How do I get along at work?
How do I push for promotionwithout stepping on toes or
making enemies?
You know that's a whole nothertopic that's so interesting to
me.
That is work life.
(32:21):
And again, getting back to thegender differences you brought
up about identifying giftedness,that women are much less likely
to promote themselves in a worksetting unless they feel like
they are 100% solid and 100%sure of what they're doing,
whereas men in some of thestudies out there can be maybe
about 70% there.
(32:42):
They don't have to feel like Ihave it down 100% before I
promote myself.
And you know, come to my bossesand ask for a raise or ask for a
different position.
So it's, I think, aboutrecognizing our strengths that
we bring to the table in a worksetting as well.
Like you're saying, in terms ofleadership, we have to be
honest with ourselves,respectful of people we lead, or
(33:05):
they're not going to respect us.
They're gonna, they're gonnarespond out of fear, but they're
not going to really learn fromus.
Nadja (33:14):
Is there something you could draw parallels from, like
advocacy for your children, butalso advocacy for yourself at
work?
Gail (33:41):
I'm learning through these conditions or I have, you know,
I have creative ideas that comeup when I'm in certain settings
, like just to kind of advocatefor learning needs.
They may not be able toaccommodate it, but to just put
it out there and that also showsa level of self-awareness.
So, for example, I don't knowhow it is for you in Switzerland
, but here in the States overthe past 10, 15 years in a lot
(34:02):
of businesses there's been thisconcept of open office setting,
open concept where people aremaybe at desks together but
there's no doors, there's no wayto go off privately.
And I think that finallyrealizing that doesn't help
productivity.
There's way too manydistractions, it's too communal,
(34:26):
it's not going to help people,especially if they have work.
They have to focus on thecomputer about writing or
whatever it's going to take awayfrom them.
But I think that's a conceptthat will go by the wayside.
But if that's the case andsomeone works in an open concept
works situation, they might beable to say you know, is it okay
(34:47):
if I go over to that you knowconference room when it's not in
use, just because I need peaceand quiet to get my work done?
That kind of a a thing, thebest you can advocate for your
own productivity.
Nadja (34:59):
I would assume that most caring employers, if they can
accommodate it yeah that'sobviously not true of every work
setting, certainly that's justand also like what I see is, you
know, light sensitivity, noisesensitivity.
So open offices pose a otherlevel of complexity, intensity
(35:24):
and overwhelm.
And, if you can, you know ifyour employer allows for a day
working from home, for example,or something like that, or noise
, noise-canceling headphones.
But it's a trial and error.
So I think it's also somethingto be bold and try out and then
(35:47):
be bold and ask for it, becauseif nobody else does it, it's
usually uncomfortable to be thefirst to ask.
Gail (35:56):
Yes, exactly, and I think if it's done in a kind
collaborative team buildingcapacity like you know I know I
work best when X, y and Z are inplace then it's hard to argue
with that.
But you know some work settingsare not great and people suffer
(36:17):
and it's really unfortunate.
But even if you know a giftedsettings are not great and
people suffer and it's reallyunfortunate.
But even if you know a giftedadult is in a work setting that
is difficult for them because ofthe pressures they experience,
you know to at least do thingsto support themselves outside of
work or at work, to find peers,to find friends, find people to
have lunch with.
You know something to kind oftake the edge off.
Nadja (36:40):
What I also encountered is I'm also working as a coach,
as a gifted and neurodivergentcoach.
There's two types of clientsthe clients that come and would
like to learn more about theirgiftedness and how they can live
an authentic life true tothemselves.
(37:01):
And then there's clients who,now that I know, I will easily
identify them and tell them thatthis is not the way I work.
But there's clients that come,they know they're neurodivergent
but they want to coach just tomask more.
They want to present more quoteunquote neurotypical.
(37:24):
They want to fit in more.
How can I fit in more at work?
How can I fit in, you know,just more in the world and
present as a neurotypical personor a non-neurodivergent person,
and I think that's, in myopinion, quite sad and not
living through to themselves.
Gail (37:45):
Yeah, it's really a tough dilemma because so many have
suffered already throughouttheir childhood feeling
different, feeling misunderstood, and then they have this
dilemma as adults, like when canI truly be myself?
Or when do I have to try tofigure out how to conform with,
say, the work culture, thesocial milieu, whatever I mean.
(38:08):
It's really, it's really atough dilemma and I think that
affects, you know, everybody.
But it's certainly harder forfolks who are neurodivergent to
figure out.
Okay, who can I be?
How can I be authentic andgenuine wherever I am, even if
it might make some peopleuncomfortable, or is there a way
I can educate them a little bitif they don't understand?
Nadja (38:31):
Yeah, finding safe spaces to start unmasking a little bit
and of course we cannot, as youmentioned, we cannot walk
unmasked all the time usually inour world, unfortunately but
also knowing when is it safe tobe myself and when is it
(38:52):
appropriate to hold a little bitback and finding this path and
the concept of masking.
Gail (38:58):
It certainly happens a lot with neurodivergent folks.
Hold a little bit back andfinding this and you know the
the concept of masking it's.
It certainly happens a lot withneurodivergent folks.
But also, just you know,straight out, gifted folks,
without twice exception, inhobby, often had to mask who
they were, what their interestswere Once they hit middle school
.
Once they hit, you know, 12 or13 years old, they had a choice.
If I don't, do I fit in and tonedown my interests, my
(39:22):
personality, my energy, myenthusiasm, or do I just, you
know, find at least, hopefully,a small group of peers who will
accept me as who I am, even ifI'm not going to be the popular
kid?
It's a really tough one and Ithink it's manifest differently
with boys and girls andcertainly now with children who
(39:43):
are non-binary.
But even prior to that, justgender wise girls often feel
pressure to be attractive andfit some feminine stereotype
which often means I can't benerdy, I can't be good at math,
I can't be a high achiever or Iwon't be popular.
(40:03):
And boys often feel pressure tobe tough and masculine and hide
their feelings and not besensitive.
A lot of studies have foundthat for middle school age kids,
gifted boys who are alsoathletic and who have leadership
skills tend to fare the best,that sometimes their you know
(40:24):
kind of nerdy giftedness isexcused and accepted, whereas
those who are not athletic ordon't have strong leadership
skills really suffer.
Nadja (40:33):
Hmm.
So I hope with our conversationwe can change a little bit at
the also the self-esteem ofgifted adults and gifted parents
, and through them, also togifted children, and challenge
these gender norms.
Is there anything else that youwould like to share with us,
(40:56):
something that you wish peopleknew?
Something you wish you knewearlier?
Gail (41:02):
That's a great question.
I just think a lot of this isabout really accepting who you
are and it's okay to bedifferent.
It's okay to not fit the normand to find people who will
support that in your life.
I know sometimes people are indifficult jobs or neighborhoods
(41:25):
where differences are notaccepted and they can't always
change that up.
But if there's some way toconnect, there's a great online
community out there these days.
So even if you don't havepeople in your neighborhood who
connect with you, you can findpeople online many times and
just to appreciate it's okay tobe different.
You don't have to feel that way.
Nadja (41:48):
Yeah, thank you, and it's also great to hear that for
myself.
Thank you so much for sharingthat.
If people would like to findout more about you, connect with
you.
Where is it best for them tofind you on the internet.
Gail (42:03):
I'm in a bunch of places.
My website is just my name,gailpostcom and
g-a-i-l-p-o-s-tcom, and there'slinks to other ways of
connecting.
But I also have my blog, whichis Gifted Challenges, and again,
there's lots of articles there,as well as articles that I
(42:24):
don't write, but other thingsthat I find interesting that are
through my newsletter, orthings I post on Facebook,
twitter and Instagram.
I don't do as much on Instagram.
It doesn't seem like a mediumthat really works for me.
I don't even do that much onTwitter anymore, but I have a
Facebook page, not my personalGail Post page, but my Gifted
Challenges page that, if you'reon Facebook, might be worth
(42:47):
checking out Because, again, Ido post lots of different
articles there.
And you know, if anybody'sinterested in my book, all the
different bookseller sites onAmazon, barnes, noble, on the
publisher site Gifted Unlimitedand other smaller sites, but
mostly, hopefully, if you wantto connect, I'd be happy to talk
(43:07):
to you further.
I do offer psychotherapy,although I don't offer
psychotherapy abroad, but I doin the States and I have
something called SciPack so Ican see people through
telehealth do in the states andI have something called sci-pack
so I can see people throughtelehealth, and it's about 40
different us states at thispoint authorized to do that, and
I do coaching, we'll say, forparents, but also some gifted
(43:27):
adults you know, worldwide aswell.
So anyway, I appreciate youhaving me here.
This has been lovely to chatwith with you and learn more and
also get your perspective onthings.
Nadja (43:40):
Thank you so much for joining and I will link all the
links that you have provided inthe show notes so people can
just go down and click, so theydon't need to go and Google so
they find it.
And you just mentioned youoffer therapy in the US, in
about 40 states, throughtelemedicine.
Is this for children or alsofor adults?
Gail (44:02):
Adults.
Once in a while I will see anadolescent, but I usually don't
like to do that across statelines, just because if they need
to have other resources, Iwouldn't know resources in their
area.
Nadja (44:16):
That's great to know.
Gifted adult therapy in the USthrough telemedicine.
They can come and reach out toyou.
Be careful what you wish for.
You might get a lot of calls ohgosh, and coaching worldwide.
Gail (44:31):
On my website there's a link to the thing called
SidePack P-S-Y-P-A-C-T.
That shows what states haveagreed to that legislative
concept so that they allow forthat.
But not every state does.
Okay.
Nadja (44:47):
Thank you so much.
Thank you so much, gail, forbeing here, thank you for
sharing, thank you for your time, for your insight, for your
lovely book and thank you forthe listeners to tuning in and
we'll see you next time.
Thank you.
Gail (45:01):
Thank you, take care.
Bye.
Nadja (45:05):
I hope you enjoyed this episode and you learned
something new.
And if you did, please like,subscribe and leave a review.
And if you feel like somebodyelse that you know could profit
from this, please send them alink to this show.
And if you want to learn more,you find everything at
giftedunleashedcom and you canalso subscribe to the newsletter
(45:27):
there, so you will always be upto date for new things that are
coming, and all the informationthat we mentioned today in the
episode will be on the shownotes for the episode.
So everything is right therefor you and, with that said, I
wish you a wonderful day and Isee you next time.
Bye.
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