March 12, 2024 • 47 mins
In this episode I welcome Shawn Nelson, the Founder and CEO of Lovesac, to delve into the entrepreneurial journey he's embarked on and how it intertwines with his role as a dedicated father. Inspired by his recent book, Let Me Save You 25 Years, we explore the invaluable lessons Shawn has learned along the way, fondly termed 'Shawnisms', and their relevance to his experiences in both business and fatherhood.
It's important to keep everything in proper priority. Shawn thinks about his wife and kids in everything he does. He often reminds himself, "Everything Else is Dust."
LINKS
About Shawn Nelson
Let Me Save You 25 Years - Book
Lovesac - Modern Furniture
@shawnoflovesac
Thank you to Shawn for sharing his journey and for being part of Girl Dad Nation.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Shawn Nelson (00:00):
By the time they're 18, you've spent 90% of
the time you're ever going tospend with them and you only got
10% left for the whole balanceof their life, of your life with
theirs.
And so how are you engaged inthat 90%?
Are you engaged?
Matthew Krekeler (00:27):
Welcome to Girl Dad Nation.
In this episode I welcome ShawnNelson.
Shawn is the CEO and founder ofLovesac Company and Lovesac is
celebrating their 25 years and Iwanted to have Shawn on the
show because I just listened tohis audiobook Let me save you 25
years detailing his journeywith Lovesac Company.
(00:48):
So, yeah, let's get to it, sean, welcome to the show.
Thank you so glad to be here.
So I just got through youraudiobook.
I love audiobooks and podcastsbecause I like to, as one of
your concepts is work in theseams and cracks, so I get a lot
of research done when I listenas I'm driving and doing other
(01:09):
household tasks.
But then I did make it to theLovesac store and picked up a
physical copy of your book,which is even better, I think,
because you're missing out onall of the pictures and all of
these great things that youdon't get from the audiobook.
But there's some treasures inthe physical copy.
(01:30):
Thank you.
Shawn Nelson (01:31):
Yeah, strange book , I try you know, I read all
these business books, so I triedto create something that's
unique and, you know, not to befound elsewhere.
Matthew Krekeler (01:40):
And then you're also a dad, a dad of four
, three girls and a boy.
So, yeah, I wanted to dive alittle bit into your family life
and, yeah, tell me a little bitabout your kids.
They're a little bit older now,so you've had more experience
as a dad than I.
My oldest is almost five.
(02:00):
But, yeah, what was that like?
Where does fatherhood fit intoyour story as a CEO man?
My life as a father?
Shawn Nelson (02:13):
kind of paralleles my life building the business.
My oldest now is 15.
So I have 15 year old daughter,13 year old son, and then 11
and nine year old daughters, andso three, three daughters, and
all of them were born inConnecticut when Love Sack was
(02:35):
out there, having relocatedthere from our home in Utah
where we started the companybecause we had to live through a
complete chapter 11reorganization as a business,
and it was terrifying andhumiliating and embarrassing.
And in the wake of all of that,about it would have been about,
(02:56):
I guess, almost eight or nineyears into the business Since it
was started as a side hustle incollege.
I'm also having kids, you know,every two years.
My wife is adamant that we tryto have a close family and so,
starting in 2008, 10, 12, 14,right in the thick of probably
(03:19):
the busiest time in my lifeBesides the business, I was also
involved in a lot of thingswith my church.
I was also, toward the end ofthat time frame, pursuing a
master's degree and then laterteaching at a university in
Manhattan, and so it was just agnarly thick, difficult, crazy
(03:42):
time.
I was, I think, traveling toAsia four or five times a year.
I was probably traveling ingeneral, about 50% of the time
my wife had no help from mother,family, et cetera while we were
living in Stanford, because allof our extended family was back
in Utah and we spent a decadeout there raising these kids
kind of on our own.
My wife is a very, very, very,very, very, very, very, very,
(04:05):
very, very, very, very, very,very, very, very, very, very
long Just trying to have a real,real life even more on her own
to some degree.
While I was traveling and inthose seems and cracks of being
home on weekends or whenever Icould be home, I'm trying to be
as good a father as I possiblycould, trying to be as engaged,
(04:27):
trying to be not tired, tryingto change a lot of diapers, make
a lot of bean burritos all thethings that I could possibly do
to help my partner through allof this.
Matthew Krekeler (04:36):
That's great.
Yeah, it takes such a team.
I'm so blessed to have my wifeand her and I both work, so we
both try to balance each of ourjobs.
But, like, at the end of theday, like our priority is to our
family and to our kids and but,yeah, it's hard when you're
seeing a vision and you'retrying to see your vision
(04:58):
through, no matter what area ofyour career you're in.
But but it's awesome that I'vetalked to so many people like
yourself that are doing all ofthese things but, like they love
being a dad at the heart of itand that's kind of like what
inspired me to start the podcastis just to hear from people.
You get all of their businessbooks, you get all of their like
advice on life, but how doesfamily life fit into all of that
(05:22):
?
And, yeah, so it's greattalking to you just about that.
Yeah, when, when you firstbecame a dad, I want to kind of
turn back the clock, like 15years, and ask like what that
moment was like.
You had been running yourcompany for several years before
that, but now you're in thisnew role.
How was it different?
(05:44):
In what ways?
Like, for the challenges thesame and what ways were the
challenges unexpected now thatyou're a father?
Shawn Nelson (05:54):
Nothing can prepare you to be a parent and
you know it doesn't really comewith an instruction manual.
It's funny.
You know you don't need alicense.
You know you need a license tobuy, to at least drive a car.
You need a business license toget into business, but any, any
(06:14):
idiot can have a kid and so,thankfully, this idiot just
approached it.
I think, like everything else inlife, which is just to jump in
with both feet and do my best,and at that time, like I said,
it was probably the busiest,hardest time in my life and I've
(06:36):
reflected on that a lot.
Like it's interesting to melike so, as a person of faith
believes in God, believes in youknow, there's a plan to all
this, etc.
It's interesting to me that formost people, I think it's kind
of the human condition that weare thrust into fatherhood,
parenthood, during the hardesttime.
(07:00):
You know we're trying to starta career, we're trying to feed
our family, we're trying to makesome money, we're trying to get
ahead, we're maturing, we'rewrestling with our own you know
development, hormones, growth,manhood, whether that begins at
(07:21):
18 or you know some young agefor some people, or whether it
happens in your 20s or even 30sIn any of those moments I think
it's still like a crucible ofactivity that we're expected
just to juggle being a father,especially in today's day and
age where you know, I think, alot more is expected than in
(07:43):
times past.
Thankfully, I think that dadsif I read my history right, you
know sometimes it was just about, you know, siring a son, and
then you know, the rest was leftto mothers and grandparents.
In this day and age, you know,a father is, I think, expected
to carry equal weight, or atleast you know their share of
(08:04):
the load for sure, in parenting.
And of course, we don't justhave to, we get to, and it's
such a blessing.
But it's hard and I don't knowwhat the answer is.
I don't know why that's thecase, but my speculation, you
know, if there is a plan to allthis and if it's meant to be
this way because this is onething I wrestle with again, let
(08:25):
me come back to that.
I'll build on it.
I know people who, you know,life didn't lead them to a
marriage, or a successfulmarriage, or to children at that
stage.
They make a bunch of money,they retire and now they're
raising their.
You know, they get to be thisactive father in their 40s or
50s, and that's an interestingdynamic at the same time.
(08:48):
Well, you know, or by the way,some people have a child very
late in life and they get thischance to kind of in a different
stage in life, when they're alittle bit more set up, when
they're a little bit more stable, to be a father, and I think
that's a beautiful thing.
All I know is my story and in mycase, like so many others, it
was difficult and thick and hardand busy when I was thrust into
(09:10):
being a father, and I thinkthat there is some meaning in
that.
I think that the reality is lifeis hard.
I think it's kind of meant tobe hard, I think it's meant to
put us through that refiner'sfire, and being a father is a
major piece of that and in fact,it becomes and it should become
, I think, the most importantpiece of it, like, and so I
(09:32):
don't have a good answer as towhy it's that way, but it's that
way for most around the world,I think, and I think we just
need to embrace it and roll withit and accept it and our kids
don't get to see us, you know,12 hours a day and spend all
this quality time with us,because we're out earning money,
we're out building, we're outgrowing, and I think we're meant
(09:56):
to do that to some degree andto juggle this and I don't know.
Those are my reflections.
So at that time it wasdifficult, it was hard, but I
jumped in with both feet and didmy best.
Yeah, may I ask what?
Matthew Krekeler (10:08):
age were you when you had your first daughter
?
Shawn Nelson (10:10):
I was 31 years old when I had our first child, and
so, you know, late by somestandards, late by Mormon
standards.
I'm a member of the ChurchJesus Christ Latter-day Saints.
You know, sometimes we getaccused of being married very
young and starting families veryyoung, and that happens in my
case.
That's kind of late, I think,probably pretty average these
(10:32):
days In terms of timing, andprobably would have been well on
into my career Were it not forthe fact that Love Sack had just
been through a really hard time.
We'd just been forced torelocate the company to
Connecticut, out of our home,from Utah.
So it was a really it was justa tough time and I'm glad that
(10:53):
we survived.
And of course, looking back,those are very precious years
and that's the trick, right, isto try not to wish it away.
It's so easy to be lookingforward to.
Well, if I could just make thiskind of money, or we could just
pay this off, or if we couldjust get into the next place, or
(11:15):
we could just, you know, afforda bigger car, whatever it is.
And meanwhile, if we're notcareful, we are inadvertently
wishing away, yeah, theseprecious years of our kids lives
, of our life as a father, andonce they're gone.
They're gone.
You know that.
That staff that gets shared alot right now.
(11:36):
You know, by the time they're18, you've spent 90% of the time
you're ever going to spend withthem and you only got 10% left
for the whole balance of theirlife, of your life with theirs.
You only have 10% left of thattime and so how are you engaged
in that 90%?
Are you engaged?
Are you wishing it away becauseof outside factors?
(12:00):
You know, like money and thingslike that, and we all do it.
I think, at least I believe weall do it, and I try hard to
fight against that.
Matthew Krekeler (12:09):
Yeah, time goes by so fast.
Like I'm 30 now and so, if Idid the math right, I was like
25 when my first daughter wasborn.
And yeah, now I have three kidsin just that short amount of
time and already, like mydaughter's almost going to be in
kindergarten.
I'm like, wow, where did allthe time go?
But, yeah, I feel so blessed tohave this opportunity to be a
(12:31):
dad and like to still pursue allthese other things and in a lot
of ways I feel like not.
My new experience as a fatherhas made me a better man and a
better like employee and workerand coworker and friend, and
it's just like infused, the waythat I see the world and the
things that I value and the waythat, like I see other people
(12:54):
and like what I want them toaccomplish.
So I feel so blessed for theopportunity now that it's not
just like compartmentalized butit's like fully engulfed, like
just like who I want torepresent and become.
And one of your you call themSeanisms, but these lessons that
(13:16):
you share in your book, one ofthem kind of goes against the
notion of the well, it's sort ofa different approach than the
fake it till you make it kind ofphilosophy, but I like yours
better.
You say be what you will be, notwhat you are.
And you were proving that inyour company when you had little
(13:39):
love sack, like going out andtrying to build relationships.
And I think at one point youmentioned you had a partnership
with Red Bull at some events,and it's like you have this huge
multi-million dollar companyand you wanted to be in the same
space, but instead of beinglike, well, I won't, I need to
wait until I can get to thatpoint, I will like just always
(14:02):
kind of putting that off to thefuture, like you just did what
you wanted to be and you tookorders.
You never said like, well, wedon't have a factory, we don't
have, like, all these things inplace, and in a way you said yes
and then found the way to makeit happen.
And I think the point I wantedto make with fatherhood, as you
(14:25):
said, you don't get a manual,you kind of just get thrown into
it.
But in a lot of ways, likeeveryone's learning and the only
way to grow is to just dive inand be what you hope to be.
Shawn Nelson (14:39):
If you're listening to this podcast, then
you're already ahead of the game.
You're trying, you know you'remaking an effort, like any idiot
can be a father, you know itdoesn't take that much.
But you know, to be a dad, tobe a great father to children,
(15:00):
to raise children, that takessome work and some effort, like
anything in life.
And so, in terms of this ideaof be what you will be, not what
you are, yeah, when the callcame through from, you know, the
biggest retailer in the UnitedStates, wanting 12,000 little
love sacks, my behavior, my toneof voice, my response yeah,
(15:22):
we're the best not being badcompany in the world.
And it wasn't a lie.
We were probably the only notbeing bad company in the world
at that time, you know, makingphone bags, whatever.
But I tried to speak like it,dress like it, act like it,
behave like it and ultimately itbecame true.
I think the same can be truefor fatherhood.
(15:44):
You know, just imagine for oneminute what a great dad looks
like and when I say that I meanthat metaphorically how they act
, how they speak, how theybehave, how they interact with
their children, how they show upthe energy level, the
commitment, the decision making.
Okay, act like that, be whatyou will be, not what you are.
(16:08):
You might be a scrub who'sbarely hanging on financially,
mentally, spiritually,emotionally, in our 20s or 30s,
who knows?
But you can choose to be whatyou will be, not just what you
are.
And especially as a father, youknow we only get in the reality
(16:29):
, back to the human condition.
We may only get these precioustimes after work, in the
evenings, on the weekends, maybe, to interface with our children
In the mornings, waking up, tohelp out, make some breakfast.
Whatever it may be.
Okay, how are you in thosemoments?
How do you show up?
(16:50):
Are you being that great fatheror are you just being you?
And you know, in this day andage it's really popular to be
like well, that's just how I am,that's just who I am, that's
just.
I don't believe that.
You know we can be anything wewant to be.
You know it sounds tried, itsounds like self-help, but it's
absolutely true.
(17:11):
It starts with a choice.
And look, I fall short everyday, which is why you know I
have certain things I try to doto keep myself in line, a
morning mantra, you know, amorning routine, because I'm
always falling short, I'm alwaysa little bit tired.
I'm always a little bit, youknow, less engaged, less present
(17:31):
than I probably should be, butI'm trying and I'm trying to
become that and the best part is, when you try on a consistent
basis, things will become ahabit and the things that you
were weak at will.
You will almost inadvertentlybecome strong and then you'll be
(17:51):
even more aware of otherweaknesses and shortcomings you
have, let's say, as a father,because you've leveled up and
you'll always be chasing it.
And then by the time you arriveanywhere, your kids will
probably be, you know, leavingthe house and you've lost your
chance.
See, you better be trying,otherwise it will escape you.
Matthew Krekeler (18:10):
Yeah, sean, do you have a mantra Like?
If you were to summarize, likeSean, philosophy, taking your
Seanisms or whatever and puttinga mantra kind of thing together
as a father, what would that be?
Shawn Nelson (18:23):
Well, there's a number of ways I can answer that
, but I'll start with I wear,you know, my wedding ring, which
has evolved over time.
I have this newer one that cameafter we had the four kids and
it has these six black diamondsin it and of course, it
represents me and my wife and myfour children.
And on the inside of this ringthere's an inscription, and it's
(18:46):
one of the Seanisms that Ishare in the book and I expound
on in the book Let Me Save you25 Years.
Is this Seanism calledEverything Else is Dust?
And it's referring toeverything else aside from these
six souls, including my own, myown, my own mental well-being,
(19:06):
physical well-being as aprovider, especially my wife's.
She comes first, even before thekids.
It's something I believe and Iknow that's heretical to say in
this day and age.
You know it almost sounds likeabrasive to what your kids don't
come first.
Listen.
I believe when we put ourspouse, you know, our partner,
(19:28):
first, it has the best impact onthe kids.
They know it, they feel it,they grow up in an environment
of love.
You know it's easy for parentsto, in the name of our children,
neglect our spouse, you know,even roll our eyes or, you know,
(19:49):
argue in the extreme case, youknow, fight, disagree openly,
etc.
And it's not to say that mywife and I don't disagree, but I
think that we do very.
We make a strong effort to bealigned, especially in front of
the children, and to truly bealigned, to truly like love each
(20:13):
other, care about each other,put the others' needs first and
when that happens, I believe ithas the most profound effect on
the kids, more than any amountof attention or love I could
give them directly.
Now, of course it's not to saywe neglect our children, I'm
just saying that's my priority.
And then, of course, the otherfour members of this little clan
(20:33):
and that makes the six diamonds.
But I try to remind myself dailyeverything else is dust.
Now you're looking at a personwho likes things.
I collect old cars, I drivethem, I dirt bike.
You know we boat, we ski, we doall this stuff, we have stuff,
we do stuff, but it's all dust,it's all garbage compared to
(20:59):
these six souls.
And if we accidentally let thesethings, I share a very personal
story in the book where my dadberated me for losing a gas cap
and of course it was just one ofthese things that happens in
our life.
But I doubt what he intendedwas to make me feel less
(21:23):
important than his preciouslocking gas cap that I left on
the bumper and it fell off butit was lost.
But that's how it made me feelat this stupid age of 13.
Because, you know, we'reundeveloped and we don't process
everything and we can't look atthings with perspective because
we don't have any perspectiveat 13.
And if we're not careful, youknow we can have those kinds of
(21:46):
effects on our children.
And so if we ever and sowhenever anything is broken,
lost, scratched, dented,destroyed, I try very, very hard
to pump my brakes.
Remember, that thing is justgarbage, that thing is dust,
that thing is unimportantcompared to my relationship with
my.
No, it doesn't mean I won'tteach them a lesson, Doesn't
(22:09):
mean I won't try to call it totheir attention that you know
they should be careful, thatthey should treat things
carefully.
Why?
Why should they treat thingscarefully?
You know, because you know youtie it back to work and effort
and time away from home.
Even you know that's going toofar, probably for a kid.
But my point is it's importantto teach our children, but not
(22:31):
at the, not at the emotionalexpense of damaging them, and so
keeping all this stuff inperspective is something it's
one of my most importantShaunisms that I try to live by
and remember.
All this other stuff is dustand we don't want to
accidentally, you know put itahead of the relationships we
have, especially with our spouseand children.
Matthew Krekeler (22:56):
Yeah, absolutely, I completely agree
with that.
I think everything and properpriority.
And I think, as you said, a lotof people focus so much on
their kids, which is a goodthing, but they lose sight of
their spouse, this person thatthey were first called to love.
And I think that our expressionof love with our spouse is a
(23:17):
witness to our kids in the waythat, like we are to love and
the way that they're loved.
And it's a challenge too, likeif I'm doing something for my
wife and helping out and orwhatever it is like my kids see
that and it's like okay, likedad is there, he's present, like
this is a team, like we're alltogether, we've created this
(23:39):
family at home.
We're all part of that.
And then, yeah, so it's not thislike sort of owed mentality
that parents sometimes get into,where, like everything kind of
focus around the kids and likeeven the weekends are
prioritized, like around thekids, soccer and all these other
kinds of activities, and we getbusy and I'm sure, like, as my
(24:02):
kids get older, there'll be allsorts of obligations that we'll
have, but we make an effort,like in our family.
Church is important to us andso we take time to pray as a
family, we take time to go tochurch on the weekends and then
everything kind of falls in linearound those things that we
first prioritized, but then alsomaking time to do the fun
(24:25):
things as a family, to traveland to do different events and
things.
But yeah, I completely agreewith what you were saying about
like you have to put things inperspective.
Shawn Nelson (24:37):
Absolutely.
And look, it's tricky, it'shard.
You get the chance as a fatherto be, you know, I'll say it
this way the CEO of your family,and maybe it's a co-CEO, you
know, of course, with your wifeor spouse or partner, whatever.
But there's a reason CEOs getpaid a lot of money.
(24:59):
It's because it's hard to be aCEO and you have to make tough
decisions and it's hard.
You say, well, what's the rightdecision?
Like, oh my gosh, like you know, my kids soccer games or my
wife's?
I can't answer that for you,but I will say this if you are
really honest with yourself, ifyou're honest with yourself and
you're being honest withyourself and you're really
(25:21):
trying to view, you know, yourdecisions on a daily basis,
weekly, monthly, you know yearlybasis.
Through the lens of honesty,you'll know.
You know if you're kind ofbeing a little bit neglectful of
your spouse or you know ifyou're kind of dodging your kids
because you're tired.
You know, and that can happenon a daily basis, minute to
(25:45):
minute basis, and you and Iwould challenge you to push
yourself out of your comfortzone.
Be honest.
If you've fallen short, ifyou've, you know, if you've made
mistakes.
Start now, start in the nextmoment, you know, shutting the
laptop, turning off the phone,trying to engage, and then, you
(26:05):
know, scold yourself silentlywhen you find yourself drifting
back to your phone in front ofyour kids.
And you know, and it's hard,these things are hard, but
that's why they pay you the bigbucks and I'm joking, right, no
one, you don't get paid forbeing a father.
But what's wild is, isn't itmore important?
You know you might get paid alot in whatever your
(26:28):
professional role is.
I'm the CEO of a public company.
My duties as a father are moreimportant.
Do I act like that?
Now, a lot of people arecounting on me and it's tricky,
sean.
How do you?
How do you then?
What?
What?
You don't show up.
You go to every kid'severything and you never show up
(26:48):
as a CEO.
No, because, by the way, if Ifail at that, I can't provide.
But sometimes we hide,sometimes we dodge our kids in
the name of.
Well, I'm making money for them, I'm doing this for them,
aren't I?
If you're really honest withyourself and you try to be
honest with yourself every day,you can find ways to be a great
(27:12):
father and a great earner, orwhatever.
And, by the way, something'sgot to give.
Like you know, maybe there aresacrifices you'll make in your
career.
You know, right now, forinstance, I'm often as an
entrepreneur, I'm oftencompelled to invest in this, get
involved in that, advise, siton a board, take on this, be,
(27:35):
you know, be part of this.
Start.
This other side hustle, andpart of my morning mantra that I
read to myself reminds me notto do that Doesn't mean that you
know, I don't have investments.
I have, you know, I'm trying todiversify, I'm trying to, you
know, build a retirement,whatever, but a lot of that's
just passive and I'm trying notto be a serial entrepreneur.
(27:58):
What Isn't that kind ofunambitious, sean?
Look, my ambitions for LoveSack are huge.
I think we can build it into amulti-billion dollar company.
But if I'm trying to do thatand I'm trying to do one or two
other startups and I'm trying tobe a good dad, look, some
things got to give.
And so I choose to forego mostof those opportunities, almost
(28:20):
all of them, in the name of okay, I'm going to do this and I'm
going to do that, and that's allI'm going to do.
And look, maybe it won't makeme a billionaire, but I've known
plenty of billionaires and ahundred millionaires, and many
of them would, if pushed to behonest, trade places with me to
(28:43):
be on their first wife, to havechildren that know them and like
them.
What's that worth?
Matthew Krekeler (28:54):
Yeah, I think, as you said, we have so many
blessings right in front of ussometimes and we can kind of get
caught up in chasing the nextthing, especially when it comes
to money.
People see, oh, if I had abigger house, extra zero in my
bank account, all these thingswould be easy.
And we neglect the blessingsthat are right in front of us
sometimes.
And, as you said, there'speople who make far more than I
(29:15):
do, even more than you do, andthey're still not happy and they
might not have the blessingsthat I look at every day and say
I get to wake up with my kids.
My daughters are telling meevery day, daddy, I love you,
and they're excited when I getto come home at five o'clock.
All of those things.
I have to remind myself as muchas I want all of these things
(29:41):
and hopefully to be able toprovide for them, to be thankful
for what I have every day and,by the way, on the other side of
that, when they're gone andthey're doing, their own thing
and you're proud of them.
Shawn Nelson (29:53):
Who are you left with?
You're left with yourself, howyou feel about yourself.
You're left with your spouse,and then you might have another
30, 40 years to kill without anyof those things.
40 years to kill without any ofthose little blessings on a
daily basis.
So don't wish them away, eventhough you're in the thick of it
(30:15):
.
And it's hard to do, you know,because we all, we all, are
feeling the pressure, you know,and by and let me share one
other anecdote that it'sinteresting because they're hard
to come by I had a friend whomade a ton of money and retired
very young, like in his early40s, still has, you know, all of
his kids at home and I'm reallyjealous.
(30:36):
It's like, oh man, maybe Ishould, you know, like if my
family really matters to me,maybe that's what I should do,
find a way to do that, then Icould spend all my time with
them.
But the reality is you can't.
They got to go to school, theygot to do their thing, they got
to be on their own.
So now you know he rides hisbike a lot and he's actually
told me one time it was reallyinteresting.
He pulled me aside and sent mea note and told me you know, I
(31:00):
kind of admire where you're atbecause, sean, you seem to be
able to spend a lot of time withyour family.
You try to prioritize that, butyou're building something.
He said my kids don't see mework and I'm worried about what
that might do to them and theirown work ethic or their own
perception about reality andabout life.
(31:21):
So if we, if we so love ourfamily, shouldn't we just spend
all of our time with them?
I don't think so.
I don't think that's really theplan, you know.
I think I think there's areason.
You know, when Adam and Eveleft the garden, they were
commanded to.
You know they would.
They would have to eat by thesweat of their own brow.
I think that is part of theplan.
(31:42):
I think it would all be.
It would be nice for any of usto inherit a bunch of money and
to then be financially secure or, by the way, just earn a bunch
of money young and befinancially secure so we can
spend all our time with ourfamily.
Would we or would we be, youknow, chasing another condo here
or there and trying to navigatethe renters who trash the place
while we're building ourinheritance that we got.
(32:03):
You know what I mean.
Would we actually spend allthat time on our family?
I don't know that we would.
You know, I'd like to believethat, but at the point being, I
think for most people, the vast,vast majority of people, this
situation we're thrust into,where we've got to work hard
even as we're trying to not wishit away, is the crucible we're
(32:26):
meant to live in, to developinto more godly creatures
ourselves, and that's you don'tbecome stronger, better, faster,
you don't become a smootherstone without rolling down the
hill and having your rough edgesknocked off.
And I think so.
That's my own meandering, Idon't know contemplation on this
(32:52):
harsh reality that we live in,but it's what I believe.
Matthew Krekeler (32:57):
Yeah, I like that philosophy too, where
you're like, you're always likebeing open.
You have in the book being anavid learner and a continuous
learner and I think as much as Ithink being at home would be
great.
I know there's a certain aspect.
I love what I do.
I'm a video, I work in videoproduction and I love it.
(33:17):
I've been with the same companyfor almost nine years and we've
made all these amazing videoseries.
And my wife loves being a socialworker and she works full-time
in her organization.
So together we come home andwe're re-energized by the work
that we do and being able toshare that with our kids and
hopefully inspire them to go outand see whatever they're dream
(33:40):
through.
And that's what I love aboutGirl Dad Nation too is like
there was a lot of pressure onmy wife when we had our kids to
then leave everything and justbe a stay-at-home mom.
And there's nothing wrong withstay-at-home mothers, like
that's a blessing in itself andthere's many people that are
(34:01):
called to that.
But I was like super supportiveof my wife wanting to continue
on with the work that she wasdoing and like and at this stage
where my daughters are superyoung and the whole world is
available to them.
I love having conversations withso many different people and so
(34:21):
many different backgrounds andlike showing them like there's
all these different thingsavailable to them and at the
core of like what my wife and Iare called to is being a father
and a mother, and that'sbeautiful.
But I love just how people canbalance that and it's not like
(34:42):
it doesn't have to be this orthat, and I even see this like
in the workplace.
I love that kind of workplaceculture is being more open to
family life and like I bring mykids to the office fairly often
and I love that we're being,like as a culture, more open to
these things to make it work sothat like it's not so
(35:03):
compartmentalized in thesedifferent areas and that my kids
can really see like all thesegood things out in the world and
find their own purpose.
Shawn Nelson (35:15):
I agree and, by the way, there's not one right
answer.
I have a friend who's astay-at-home dad and in a way
I'm kind of jealous of that,like I talk a good game, but if
I were really committed I wouldhave sold all my stock in Love
Sack and just been there.
Yeah, I don't know because, bythe way, that's not me, like I
don't know.
Even if I had done that, if Iwould be there more than I am
(35:39):
now, because I'm not maybe wiredthat way where my friend maybe
is wired that way.
And, by the way, I think womenthis is a really tough thing, I
think for a lot of womenwrestling with, well, I feel
guilt because I'm not out thereworking if I'm a stay-at-home
mom, or I feel guilt because Iam out there working because I
(36:00):
really just.
But we need the money.
We can't survive without it.
I don't have the right answer.
I think we have to do what wehave to do to survive.
That's the cold, hard reality.
Some of us were meant to bestay-at-home parents, some of us
were not.
But regardless, if you get thechance to choose, if you have
the opportunity to choose, it'sa personal choice and I think
(36:22):
there isn't a right answer, Ithink, to your point.
Your wife may be a better mombecause she goes to work and has
that experience and success.
Then she would be if she were astay-at-home mom, resenting,
you know, her bratty children orsomething like that.
Right, and I don't know yourwife.
But my point is is that I thinkthat people have to feel that
(36:43):
out for themselves and be honest, be honest with themselves.
And the rough part is is whenyou can't even make the choice.
You are forced, as a singleparent or as a dual income home,
that you are forced to makedecisions just to survive.
And in that case I empathizeand I think, like welcome to
your cold, hard reality.
(37:04):
But take it on, accept it anddo your best, and that's, I
think, all we're asked to do.
I think we were all raised byparents who, unbeknownst to us,
were facing probably a lot ofthe exact same decisions and
challenges.
We were just aloof to it.
We're just dumb kids and, bythe way, god bless them for
keeping us in the dark andletting us live a happy, you
(37:27):
know, childhood.
Matthew Krekeler (37:30):
Yeah, so we're coming up, unfortunately,
towards the end of our time, but, yeah, just kind of thinking of
the future and everything.
Yeah, your daughters are youroldest, you said, is 15.
So you know they're closer tobeing on their own out of the
house in a couple more yearsthan mine are, but yeah, they're
(37:54):
doing amazing things.
I know that you ski and youdirt bike and you're doing all
these great things.
Yeah, could you share just kindof what are the ways that you
are encouraging your daughters?
Like, what things are theypassionate about?
How do you encourage that?
And then, like, what lesson,like do you hope that they take
(38:17):
with them as their adults?
Shawn Nelson (38:20):
Yeah, look, I'm really proud of my daughters.
They all speak Mandarin,chinese.
I speak Mandarin.
I served a mission for mychurch there, learned the
language.
We found schools that do halfthe immersion.
That's pretty cool.
They all play instruments.
They all play the piano.
They all are studying theguitar as well, and you know, my
(38:40):
oldest is kind of a virtuoso atthe piano, for sure, and a
songwriter.
The rest of them are doing okayand that's fine.
I think that music is a verypowerful skill.
I think that it wrinkles thebrain in ways that other things
don't.
You know, they've taken dance.
(39:00):
They've done all kinds ofdifferent lessons, jujitsu along
the way, I think, one of thethings I'm passionate about.
We all ski as a family, and Ithink that's good for a family.
It's something you can dotogether.
And water sports we're intothat as well.
So we're into a lot of things.
You know, I'm just a personwho's always been into a lot of
things, and so I guess, forbetter or for worse, that's the
(39:24):
reality that our kids are beingraised in.
At the same time, you know,we've pulled them out a lot.
They're not doing everything.
They've done different thingsalong the way and we've dropped
different things in the pursuitof having some free time and
letting them be kids.
You know they're not just goingfrom one class to the next and
the next.
There's a little bit of that,but not as much as you'd think,
because we've allowed them toabandon things that they're good
(39:46):
at, all these things you knowdance and singing and performing
and whatever.
But like you have to choose.
There's only so many hours in aday and if you don't, you'll be
eaten alive, especially withmultiple kids as a taxi running
them around and, by the way,that could take its toll and if
you're not careful that couldtake its toll on your core
relationship with your spouse.
So I would advise you to becareful of that.
(40:06):
But somewhere in there there'sa place where it works for your
family.
Lastly, I've tried to lure themall into dirt biking.
Dirt biking is dumb as itsounds.
Riding motorcycles is somethingthat I've only gone into my
forties, but I became fascinatedwith it because it's so
demanding, particularly off-road, and the only reason I'm
(40:28):
talking about it is it doesn'thave to be dirt biking.
But I've found it's notsomething I can do for them.
I can kind of do it with them,but they're on their own two
wheels.
They're gonna tip over, they'regoing to fall, they're going to
get hurt a little bit.
They're going to have to bebrave, because to really ride a
dirt bike on trails you have todrop off of ledges, you have to
(40:49):
climb up things that are verysteep and threatening and
sometimes not make it, and thendeal with the terror of not
making it and then surviving itand picking up the heavy
motorcycle and getting back outof the dirt and maybe a few
tears.
But there are lessons in all ofthat.
There are lessons in all ofthat.
(41:10):
My daughter just fell on herface the other day you know
riding, you know trying tofollow us on a trail, and she
got back up and was you know amess and crying and I thought,
oh, this might be it and youwait to see can she get back on
and when she does, because, bythe way, there's no other way
(41:30):
back to the car, like you kindof have to.
And then very next day she didher first race, completed 16
miles against bigger kids, againended in tears.
She's a bit emotional, but it'sone of the cool.
Now you ask her about it,there's just a little bit of
space, one of the things she'smost proud of in life.
And so find ways to that can,naturally and in a fun way, push
(41:55):
your kids way out of theircomfort zone, put them in
positions that bring them to thebrink, hopefully without
without damaging them, withoutcrushing them, and I believe
they'll be stronger for it.
And in my case, you know, dirtbiking has has played a role in
that, as crazy as that sounds.
So, but there's other ways andit's it's what I believe in and
(42:19):
I'm very proud of these girlsand I look forward to seeing you
know what they do with theirown lives.
And they're all, as anyone whohas multiple children knows,
these are individuals from thetime, from the moment they are
born.
They are born with theirindividual spirits and their
individual energy, and it's sosatisfying.
What a blessing.
(42:39):
I mean.
There's nothing yeah, there'snothing better in life.
Matthew Krekeler (42:44):
Yeah, I love that.
I couldn't agree more.
Yeah and like.
For people out there that arelike yeah, where do I even start
?
I love, the very first thing inyour book is just do something.
Just do something.
Shawn Nelson (42:54):
We have ideas every day these ideas flow
through your mind, like, oh,wouldn't it be cool if we went
hiking Planet?
Book the gig?
Look at it, you know.
Like, take Like these ideasthat you have as a father, they,
they might not even just beyour ideas, they might be
inspiration.
Take advantage of thatinspiration and do something.
(43:15):
I agree 100%.
So, whether it's for yourselfor your kids.
Like, get that book.
You know, take that class.
Matthew Krekeler (43:23):
Get your kids on a team of some kind.
Yeah and yeah, just like getout there and then the next do
the next thing, be the nextthing.
Just continue to encourage Allof these are.
Thanks for quoting Sean.
Yeah, these are.
Sean is from the book mypodcast.
Shawn Nelson (43:38):
Let me save you 25 years.
We got a lot of people who arelike, yeah, I'm going to be a
great writer.
We go deep into every one ofthese.
Sean isms each week and youknow I and none of it look all
the.
All the proceeds from my bookare donated to the future
business leaders of Americanonprofit.
My podcast has no advertisers,you know, I'm just putting it
out there to be useful.
(43:59):
But you know, the fact thatyou're even listening to stuff
like this, I think, shows thatyou have a desire to be better
at being a dad, let's say, andthat's only a good thing, you
know, I mean, that's, that's agreat thing.
Now, just now, just pair thatwith a little bit of action.
(44:19):
Number one, sean, isn't just dosomething.
And then number two, just dothe next thing and you're on
your way.
Matthew Krekeler (44:27):
Yeah, that's so great, sean.
It's so awesome to have you onthe podcast.
Thanks for being a part of GirlDad Nation.
And yeah, I just did something.
I listened to your podcast.
There we go, then I got yourbook and then I you never know
until you asked, so I sent youan email and asked for you to be
on the podcast.
I'm so thankful that you saidyes, that's right.
(44:48):
So, to wrap up this interview, Iwant to give you a special
opportunity Pretend like I'm nothere Want to give you an
opportunity to leave a specialmessage directly to your kids.
Shawn Nelson (45:00):
Oh, all right, lucky Duke, pepper and Valentine
.
You are the most importantthing in my life, next to your
mother, and even though I don'tget to spend all of my time with
you and sometimes when I'm withyou I can be distracted or
(45:24):
annoyed or who knows what thereis nothing on earth I love more
than you and I'm grateful tohave been given the opportunity
to be your father, and I take itvery seriously, even though I
come up short every day,probably every other moment of
(45:46):
every day, but I'm trying and Ithank you for your patience and
love.
God that is you.
Matthew Krekeler (46:02):
I'll find you, Daddy.
Thank you so much for myaudience.
Please follow Girl Dad Nation.
I'm on social media at Girl DadNation and if you love this
episode, share it with a friend.
Until next time, go be a dad.
By the time they're 18, you've spent 90% of
the time you're ever going tospend with them and you only got
10% left for the whole balanceof their life, of your life with
theirs.
And so how are you engaged inthat 90%?
Are you engaged?
Matthew Krekeler (00:27):
Welcome to Girl Dad Nation.
In this episode I welcome ShawnNelson.
Shawn is the CEO and founder ofLovesac Company and Lovesac is
celebrating their 25 years and Iwanted to have Shawn on the
show because I just listened tohis audiobook Let me save you 25
years detailing his journeywith Lovesac Company.
(00:48):
So, yeah, let's get to it, sean, welcome to the show.
Thank you so glad to be here.
So I just got through youraudiobook.
I love audiobooks and podcastsbecause I like to, as one of
your concepts is work in theseams and cracks, so I get a lot
of research done when I listenas I'm driving and doing other
(01:09):
household tasks.
But then I did make it to theLovesac store and picked up a
physical copy of your book,which is even better, I think,
because you're missing out onall of the pictures and all of
these great things that youdon't get from the audiobook.
But there's some treasures inthe physical copy.
(01:30):
Thank you.
Shawn Nelson (01:31):
Yeah, strange book , I try you know, I read all
these business books, so I triedto create something that's
unique and, you know, not to befound elsewhere.
Matthew Krekeler (01:40):
And then you're also a dad, a dad of four
, three girls and a boy.
So, yeah, I wanted to dive alittle bit into your family life
and, yeah, tell me a little bitabout your kids.
They're a little bit older now,so you've had more experience
as a dad than I.
My oldest is almost five.
(02:00):
But, yeah, what was that like?
Where does fatherhood fit intoyour story as a CEO man?
My life as a father?
Shawn Nelson (02:13):
kind of paralleles my life building the business.
My oldest now is 15.
So I have 15 year old daughter,13 year old son, and then 11
and nine year old daughters, andso three, three daughters, and
all of them were born inConnecticut when Love Sack was
(02:35):
out there, having relocatedthere from our home in Utah
where we started the companybecause we had to live through a
complete chapter 11reorganization as a business,
and it was terrifying andhumiliating and embarrassing.
And in the wake of all of that,about it would have been about,
(02:56):
I guess, almost eight or nineyears into the business Since it
was started as a side hustle incollege.
I'm also having kids, you know,every two years.
My wife is adamant that we tryto have a close family and so,
starting in 2008, 10, 12, 14,right in the thick of probably
(03:19):
the busiest time in my lifeBesides the business, I was also
involved in a lot of thingswith my church.
I was also, toward the end ofthat time frame, pursuing a
master's degree and then laterteaching at a university in
Manhattan, and so it was just agnarly thick, difficult, crazy
(03:42):
time.
I was, I think, traveling toAsia four or five times a year.
I was probably traveling ingeneral, about 50% of the time
my wife had no help from mother,family, et cetera while we were
living in Stanford, because allof our extended family was back
in Utah and we spent a decadeout there raising these kids
kind of on our own.
My wife is a very, very, very,very, very, very, very, very,
(04:05):
very, very, very, very, very,very, very, very, very, very
long Just trying to have a real,real life even more on her own
to some degree.
While I was traveling and inthose seems and cracks of being
home on weekends or whenever Icould be home, I'm trying to be
as good a father as I possiblycould, trying to be as engaged,
(04:27):
trying to be not tired, tryingto change a lot of diapers, make
a lot of bean burritos all thethings that I could possibly do
to help my partner through allof this.
Matthew Krekeler (04:36):
That's great.
Yeah, it takes such a team.
I'm so blessed to have my wifeand her and I both work, so we
both try to balance each of ourjobs.
But, like, at the end of theday, like our priority is to our
family and to our kids and but,yeah, it's hard when you're
seeing a vision and you'retrying to see your vision
(04:58):
through, no matter what area ofyour career you're in.
But but it's awesome that I'vetalked to so many people like
yourself that are doing all ofthese things but, like they love
being a dad at the heart of itand that's kind of like what
inspired me to start the podcastis just to hear from people.
You get all of their businessbooks, you get all of their like
advice on life, but how doesfamily life fit into all of that
(05:22):
?
And, yeah, so it's greattalking to you just about that.
Yeah, when, when you firstbecame a dad, I want to kind of
turn back the clock, like 15years, and ask like what that
moment was like.
You had been running yourcompany for several years before
that, but now you're in thisnew role.
How was it different?
(05:44):
In what ways?
Like, for the challenges thesame and what ways were the
challenges unexpected now thatyou're a father?
Shawn Nelson (05:54):
Nothing can prepare you to be a parent and
you know it doesn't really comewith an instruction manual.
It's funny.
You know you don't need alicense.
You know you need a license tobuy, to at least drive a car.
You need a business license toget into business, but any, any
(06:14):
idiot can have a kid and so,thankfully, this idiot just
approached it.
I think, like everything else inlife, which is just to jump in
with both feet and do my best,and at that time, like I said,
it was probably the busiest,hardest time in my life and I've
(06:36):
reflected on that a lot.
Like it's interesting to melike so, as a person of faith
believes in God, believes in youknow, there's a plan to all
this, etc.
It's interesting to me that formost people, I think it's kind
of the human condition that weare thrust into fatherhood,
parenthood, during the hardesttime.
(07:00):
You know we're trying to starta career, we're trying to feed
our family, we're trying to makesome money, we're trying to get
ahead, we're maturing, we'rewrestling with our own you know
development, hormones, growth,manhood, whether that begins at
(07:21):
18 or you know some young agefor some people, or whether it
happens in your 20s or even 30sIn any of those moments I think
it's still like a crucible ofactivity that we're expected
just to juggle being a father,especially in today's day and
age where you know, I think, alot more is expected than in
(07:43):
times past.
Thankfully, I think that dadsif I read my history right, you
know sometimes it was just about, you know, siring a son, and
then you know, the rest was leftto mothers and grandparents.
In this day and age, you know,a father is, I think, expected
to carry equal weight, or atleast you know their share of
(08:04):
the load for sure, in parenting.
And of course, we don't justhave to, we get to, and it's
such a blessing.
But it's hard and I don't knowwhat the answer is.
I don't know why that's thecase, but my speculation, you
know, if there is a plan to allthis and if it's meant to be
this way because this is onething I wrestle with again, let
(08:25):
me come back to that.
I'll build on it.
I know people who, you know,life didn't lead them to a
marriage, or a successfulmarriage, or to children at that
stage.
They make a bunch of money,they retire and now they're
raising their.
You know, they get to be thisactive father in their 40s or
50s, and that's an interestingdynamic at the same time.
(08:48):
Well, you know, or by the way,some people have a child very
late in life and they get thischance to kind of in a different
stage in life, when they're alittle bit more set up, when
they're a little bit more stable, to be a father, and I think
that's a beautiful thing.
All I know is my story and in mycase, like so many others, it
was difficult and thick and hardand busy when I was thrust into
(09:10):
being a father, and I thinkthat there is some meaning in
that.
I think that the reality is lifeis hard.
I think it's kind of meant tobe hard, I think it's meant to
put us through that refiner'sfire, and being a father is a
major piece of that and in fact,it becomes and it should become
, I think, the most importantpiece of it, like, and so I
(09:32):
don't have a good answer as towhy it's that way, but it's that
way for most around the world,I think, and I think we just
need to embrace it and roll withit and accept it and our kids
don't get to see us, you know,12 hours a day and spend all
this quality time with us,because we're out earning money,
we're out building, we're outgrowing, and I think we're meant
(09:56):
to do that to some degree andto juggle this and I don't know.
Those are my reflections.
So at that time it wasdifficult, it was hard, but I
jumped in with both feet and didmy best.
Yeah, may I ask what?
Matthew Krekeler (10:08):
age were you when you had your first daughter
?
Shawn Nelson (10:10):
I was 31 years old when I had our first child, and
so, you know, late by somestandards, late by Mormon
standards.
I'm a member of the ChurchJesus Christ Latter-day Saints.
You know, sometimes we getaccused of being married very
young and starting families veryyoung, and that happens in my
case.
That's kind of late, I think,probably pretty average these
(10:32):
days In terms of timing, andprobably would have been well on
into my career Were it not forthe fact that Love Sack had just
been through a really hard time.
We'd just been forced torelocate the company to
Connecticut, out of our home,from Utah.
So it was a really it was justa tough time and I'm glad that
(10:53):
we survived.
And of course, looking back,those are very precious years
and that's the trick, right, isto try not to wish it away.
It's so easy to be lookingforward to.
Well, if I could just make thiskind of money, or we could just
pay this off, or if we couldjust get into the next place, or
(11:15):
we could just, you know, afforda bigger car, whatever it is.
And meanwhile, if we're notcareful, we are inadvertently
wishing away, yeah, theseprecious years of our kids lives
, of our life as a father, andonce they're gone.
They're gone.
You know that.
That staff that gets shared alot right now.
(11:36):
You know, by the time they're18, you've spent 90% of the time
you're ever going to spend withthem and you only got 10% left
for the whole balance of theirlife, of your life with theirs.
You only have 10% left of thattime and so how are you engaged
in that 90%?
Are you engaged?
Are you wishing it away becauseof outside factors?
(12:00):
You know, like money and thingslike that, and we all do it.
I think, at least I believe weall do it, and I try hard to
fight against that.
Matthew Krekeler (12:09):
Yeah, time goes by so fast.
Like I'm 30 now and so, if Idid the math right, I was like
25 when my first daughter wasborn.
And yeah, now I have three kidsin just that short amount of
time and already, like mydaughter's almost going to be in
kindergarten.
I'm like, wow, where did allthe time go?
But, yeah, I feel so blessed tohave this opportunity to be a
(12:31):
dad and like to still pursue allthese other things and in a lot
of ways I feel like not.
My new experience as a fatherhas made me a better man and a
better like employee and workerand coworker and friend, and
it's just like infused, the waythat I see the world and the
things that I value and the waythat, like I see other people
(12:54):
and like what I want them toaccomplish.
So I feel so blessed for theopportunity now that it's not
just like compartmentalized butit's like fully engulfed, like
just like who I want torepresent and become.
And one of your you call themSeanisms, but these lessons that
(13:16):
you share in your book, one ofthem kind of goes against the
notion of the well, it's sort ofa different approach than the
fake it till you make it kind ofphilosophy, but I like yours
better.
You say be what you will be, notwhat you are.
And you were proving that inyour company when you had little
(13:39):
love sack, like going out andtrying to build relationships.
And I think at one point youmentioned you had a partnership
with Red Bull at some events,and it's like you have this huge
multi-million dollar companyand you wanted to be in the same
space, but instead of beinglike, well, I won't, I need to
wait until I can get to thatpoint, I will like just always
(14:02):
kind of putting that off to thefuture, like you just did what
you wanted to be and you tookorders.
You never said like, well, wedon't have a factory, we don't
have, like, all these things inplace, and in a way you said yes
and then found the way to makeit happen.
And I think the point I wantedto make with fatherhood, as you
(14:25):
said, you don't get a manual,you kind of just get thrown into
it.
But in a lot of ways, likeeveryone's learning and the only
way to grow is to just dive inand be what you hope to be.
Shawn Nelson (14:39):
If you're listening to this podcast, then
you're already ahead of the game.
You're trying, you know you'remaking an effort, like any idiot
can be a father, you know itdoesn't take that much.
But you know, to be a dad, tobe a great father to children,
(15:00):
to raise children, that takessome work and some effort, like
anything in life.
And so, in terms of this ideaof be what you will be, not what
you are, yeah, when the callcame through from, you know, the
biggest retailer in the UnitedStates, wanting 12,000 little
love sacks, my behavior, my toneof voice, my response yeah,
(15:22):
we're the best not being badcompany in the world.
And it wasn't a lie.
We were probably the only notbeing bad company in the world
at that time, you know, makingphone bags, whatever.
But I tried to speak like it,dress like it, act like it,
behave like it and ultimately itbecame true.
I think the same can be truefor fatherhood.
(15:44):
You know, just imagine for oneminute what a great dad looks
like and when I say that I meanthat metaphorically how they act
, how they speak, how theybehave, how they interact with
their children, how they show upthe energy level, the
commitment, the decision making.
Okay, act like that, be whatyou will be, not what you are.
(16:08):
You might be a scrub who'sbarely hanging on financially,
mentally, spiritually,emotionally, in our 20s or 30s,
who knows?
But you can choose to be whatyou will be, not just what you
are.
And especially as a father, youknow we only get in the reality
(16:29):
, back to the human condition.
We may only get these precioustimes after work, in the
evenings, on the weekends, maybe, to interface with our children
In the mornings, waking up, tohelp out, make some breakfast.
Whatever it may be.
Okay, how are you in thosemoments?
How do you show up?
(16:50):
Are you being that great fatheror are you just being you?
And you know, in this day andage it's really popular to be
like well, that's just how I am,that's just who I am, that's
just.
I don't believe that.
You know we can be anything wewant to be.
You know it sounds tried, itsounds like self-help, but it's
absolutely true.
(17:11):
It starts with a choice.
And look, I fall short everyday, which is why you know I
have certain things I try to doto keep myself in line, a
morning mantra, you know, amorning routine, because I'm
always falling short, I'm alwaysa little bit tired.
I'm always a little bit, youknow, less engaged, less present
(17:31):
than I probably should be, butI'm trying and I'm trying to
become that and the best part is, when you try on a consistent
basis, things will become ahabit and the things that you
were weak at will.
You will almost inadvertentlybecome strong and then you'll be
(17:51):
even more aware of otherweaknesses and shortcomings you
have, let's say, as a father,because you've leveled up and
you'll always be chasing it.
And then by the time you arriveanywhere, your kids will
probably be, you know, leavingthe house and you've lost your
chance.
See, you better be trying,otherwise it will escape you.
Matthew Krekeler (18:10):
Yeah, sean, do you have a mantra Like?
If you were to summarize, likeSean, philosophy, taking your
Seanisms or whatever and puttinga mantra kind of thing together
as a father, what would that be?
Shawn Nelson (18:23):
Well, there's a number of ways I can answer that
, but I'll start with I wear,you know, my wedding ring, which
has evolved over time.
I have this newer one that cameafter we had the four kids and
it has these six black diamondsin it and of course, it
represents me and my wife and myfour children.
And on the inside of this ringthere's an inscription, and it's
(18:46):
one of the Seanisms that Ishare in the book and I expound
on in the book Let Me Save you25 Years.
Is this Seanism calledEverything Else is Dust?
And it's referring toeverything else aside from these
six souls, including my own, myown, my own mental well-being,
(19:06):
physical well-being as aprovider, especially my wife's.
She comes first, even before thekids.
It's something I believe and Iknow that's heretical to say in
this day and age.
You know it almost sounds likeabrasive to what your kids don't
come first.
Listen.
I believe when we put ourspouse, you know, our partner,
(19:28):
first, it has the best impact onthe kids.
They know it, they feel it,they grow up in an environment
of love.
You know it's easy for parentsto, in the name of our children,
neglect our spouse, you know,even roll our eyes or, you know,
(19:49):
argue in the extreme case, youknow, fight, disagree openly,
etc.
And it's not to say that mywife and I don't disagree, but I
think that we do very.
We make a strong effort to bealigned, especially in front of
the children, and to truly bealigned, to truly like love each
(20:13):
other, care about each other,put the others' needs first and
when that happens, I believe ithas the most profound effect on
the kids, more than any amountof attention or love I could
give them directly.
Now, of course it's not to saywe neglect our children, I'm
just saying that's my priority.
And then, of course, the otherfour members of this little clan
(20:33):
and that makes the six diamonds.
But I try to remind myself dailyeverything else is dust.
Now you're looking at a personwho likes things.
I collect old cars, I drivethem, I dirt bike.
You know we boat, we ski, we doall this stuff, we have stuff,
we do stuff, but it's all dust,it's all garbage compared to
(20:59):
these six souls.
And if we accidentally let thesethings, I share a very personal
story in the book where my dadberated me for losing a gas cap
and of course it was just one ofthese things that happens in
our life.
But I doubt what he intendedwas to make me feel less
(21:23):
important than his preciouslocking gas cap that I left on
the bumper and it fell off butit was lost.
But that's how it made me feelat this stupid age of 13.
Because, you know, we'reundeveloped and we don't process
everything and we can't look atthings with perspective because
we don't have any perspectiveat 13.
And if we're not careful, youknow we can have those kinds of
(21:46):
effects on our children.
And so if we ever and sowhenever anything is broken,
lost, scratched, dented,destroyed, I try very, very hard
to pump my brakes.
Remember, that thing is justgarbage, that thing is dust,
that thing is unimportantcompared to my relationship with
my.
No, it doesn't mean I won'tteach them a lesson, Doesn't
(22:09):
mean I won't try to call it totheir attention that you know
they should be careful, thatthey should treat things
carefully.
Why?
Why should they treat thingscarefully?
You know, because you know youtie it back to work and effort
and time away from home.
Even you know that's going toofar, probably for a kid.
But my point is it's importantto teach our children, but not
(22:31):
at the, not at the emotionalexpense of damaging them, and so
keeping all this stuff inperspective is something it's
one of my most importantShaunisms that I try to live by
and remember.
All this other stuff is dustand we don't want to
accidentally, you know put itahead of the relationships we
have, especially with our spouseand children.
Matthew Krekeler (22:56):
Yeah, absolutely, I completely agree
with that.
I think everything and properpriority.
And I think, as you said, a lotof people focus so much on
their kids, which is a goodthing, but they lose sight of
their spouse, this person thatthey were first called to love.
And I think that our expressionof love with our spouse is a
(23:17):
witness to our kids in the waythat, like we are to love and
the way that they're loved.
And it's a challenge too, likeif I'm doing something for my
wife and helping out and orwhatever it is like my kids see
that and it's like okay, likedad is there, he's present, like
this is a team, like we're alltogether, we've created this
(23:39):
family at home.
We're all part of that.
And then, yeah, so it's not thislike sort of owed mentality
that parents sometimes get into,where, like everything kind of
focus around the kids and likeeven the weekends are
prioritized, like around thekids, soccer and all these other
kinds of activities, and we getbusy and I'm sure, like, as my
(24:02):
kids get older, there'll be allsorts of obligations that we'll
have, but we make an effort,like in our family.
Church is important to us andso we take time to pray as a
family, we take time to go tochurch on the weekends and then
everything kind of falls in linearound those things that we
first prioritized, but then alsomaking time to do the fun
(24:25):
things as a family, to traveland to do different events and
things.
But yeah, I completely agreewith what you were saying about
like you have to put things inperspective.
Shawn Nelson (24:37):
Absolutely.
And look, it's tricky, it'shard.
You get the chance as a fatherto be, you know, I'll say it
this way the CEO of your family,and maybe it's a co-CEO, you
know, of course, with your wifeor spouse or partner, whatever.
But there's a reason CEOs getpaid a lot of money.
(24:59):
It's because it's hard to be aCEO and you have to make tough
decisions and it's hard.
You say, well, what's the rightdecision?
Like, oh my gosh, like you know, my kids soccer games or my
wife's?
I can't answer that for you,but I will say this if you are
really honest with yourself, ifyou're honest with yourself and
you're being honest withyourself and you're really
(25:21):
trying to view, you know, yourdecisions on a daily basis,
weekly, monthly, you know yearlybasis.
Through the lens of honesty,you'll know.
You know if you're kind ofbeing a little bit neglectful of
your spouse or you know ifyou're kind of dodging your kids
because you're tired.
You know, and that can happenon a daily basis, minute to
(25:45):
minute basis, and you and Iwould challenge you to push
yourself out of your comfortzone.
Be honest.
If you've fallen short, ifyou've, you know, if you've made
mistakes.
Start now, start in the nextmoment, you know, shutting the
laptop, turning off the phone,trying to engage, and then, you
(26:05):
know, scold yourself silentlywhen you find yourself drifting
back to your phone in front ofyour kids.
And you know, and it's hard,these things are hard, but
that's why they pay you the bigbucks and I'm joking, right, no
one, you don't get paid forbeing a father.
But what's wild is, isn't itmore important?
You know you might get paid alot in whatever your
(26:28):
professional role is.
I'm the CEO of a public company.
My duties as a father are moreimportant.
Do I act like that?
Now, a lot of people arecounting on me and it's tricky,
sean.
How do you?
How do you then?
What?
What?
You don't show up.
You go to every kid'severything and you never show up
(26:48):
as a CEO.
No, because, by the way, if Ifail at that, I can't provide.
But sometimes we hide,sometimes we dodge our kids in
the name of.
Well, I'm making money for them, I'm doing this for them,
aren't I?
If you're really honest withyourself and you try to be
honest with yourself every day,you can find ways to be a great
(27:12):
father and a great earner, orwhatever.
And, by the way, something'sgot to give.
Like you know, maybe there aresacrifices you'll make in your
career.
You know, right now, forinstance, I'm often as an
entrepreneur, I'm oftencompelled to invest in this, get
involved in that, advise, siton a board, take on this, be,
(27:35):
you know, be part of this.
Start.
This other side hustle, andpart of my morning mantra that I
read to myself reminds me notto do that Doesn't mean that you
know, I don't have investments.
I have, you know, I'm trying todiversify, I'm trying to, you
know, build a retirement,whatever, but a lot of that's
just passive and I'm trying notto be a serial entrepreneur.
(27:58):
What Isn't that kind ofunambitious, sean?
Look, my ambitions for LoveSack are huge.
I think we can build it into amulti-billion dollar company.
But if I'm trying to do thatand I'm trying to do one or two
other startups and I'm trying tobe a good dad, look, some
things got to give.
And so I choose to forego mostof those opportunities, almost
(28:20):
all of them, in the name of okay, I'm going to do this and I'm
going to do that, and that's allI'm going to do.
And look, maybe it won't makeme a billionaire, but I've known
plenty of billionaires and ahundred millionaires, and many
of them would, if pushed to behonest, trade places with me to
(28:43):
be on their first wife, to havechildren that know them and like
them.
What's that worth?
Matthew Krekeler (28:54):
Yeah, I think, as you said, we have so many
blessings right in front of ussometimes and we can kind of get
caught up in chasing the nextthing, especially when it comes
to money.
People see, oh, if I had abigger house, extra zero in my
bank account, all these thingswould be easy.
And we neglect the blessingsthat are right in front of us
sometimes.
And, as you said, there'speople who make far more than I
(29:15):
do, even more than you do, andthey're still not happy and they
might not have the blessingsthat I look at every day and say
I get to wake up with my kids.
My daughters are telling meevery day, daddy, I love you,
and they're excited when I getto come home at five o'clock.
All of those things.
I have to remind myself as muchas I want all of these things
(29:41):
and hopefully to be able toprovide for them, to be thankful
for what I have every day and,by the way, on the other side of
that, when they're gone andthey're doing, their own thing
and you're proud of them.
Shawn Nelson (29:53):
Who are you left with?
You're left with yourself, howyou feel about yourself.
You're left with your spouse,and then you might have another
30, 40 years to kill without anyof those things.
40 years to kill without any ofthose little blessings on a
daily basis.
So don't wish them away, eventhough you're in the thick of it
(30:15):
.
And it's hard to do, you know,because we all, we all, are
feeling the pressure, you know,and by and let me share one
other anecdote that it'sinteresting because they're hard
to come by I had a friend whomade a ton of money and retired
very young, like in his early40s, still has, you know, all of
his kids at home and I'm reallyjealous.
(30:36):
It's like, oh man, maybe Ishould, you know, like if my
family really matters to me,maybe that's what I should do,
find a way to do that, then Icould spend all my time with
them.
But the reality is you can't.
They got to go to school, theygot to do their thing, they got
to be on their own.
So now you know he rides hisbike a lot and he's actually
told me one time it was reallyinteresting.
He pulled me aside and sent mea note and told me you know, I
(31:00):
kind of admire where you're atbecause, sean, you seem to be
able to spend a lot of time withyour family.
You try to prioritize that, butyou're building something.
He said my kids don't see mework and I'm worried about what
that might do to them and theirown work ethic or their own
perception about reality andabout life.
(31:21):
So if we, if we so love ourfamily, shouldn't we just spend
all of our time with them?
I don't think so.
I don't think that's really theplan, you know.
I think I think there's areason.
You know, when Adam and Eveleft the garden, they were
commanded to.
You know they would.
They would have to eat by thesweat of their own brow.
I think that is part of theplan.
(31:42):
I think it would all be.
It would be nice for any of usto inherit a bunch of money and
to then be financially secure or, by the way, just earn a bunch
of money young and befinancially secure so we can
spend all our time with ourfamily.
Would we or would we be, youknow, chasing another condo here
or there and trying to navigatethe renters who trash the place
while we're building ourinheritance that we got.
(32:03):
You know what I mean.
Would we actually spend allthat time on our family?
I don't know that we would.
You know, I'd like to believethat, but at the point being, I
think for most people, the vast,vast majority of people, this
situation we're thrust into,where we've got to work hard
even as we're trying to not wishit away, is the crucible we're
(32:26):
meant to live in, to developinto more godly creatures
ourselves, and that's you don'tbecome stronger, better, faster,
you don't become a smootherstone without rolling down the
hill and having your rough edgesknocked off.
And I think so.
That's my own meandering, Idon't know contemplation on this
(32:52):
harsh reality that we live in,but it's what I believe.
Matthew Krekeler (32:57):
Yeah, I like that philosophy too, where
you're like, you're always likebeing open.
You have in the book being anavid learner and a continuous
learner and I think as much as Ithink being at home would be
great.
I know there's a certain aspect.
I love what I do.
I'm a video, I work in videoproduction and I love it.
(33:17):
I've been with the same companyfor almost nine years and we've
made all these amazing videoseries.
And my wife loves being a socialworker and she works full-time
in her organization.
So together we come home andwe're re-energized by the work
that we do and being able toshare that with our kids and
hopefully inspire them to go outand see whatever they're dream
(33:40):
through.
And that's what I love aboutGirl Dad Nation too is like
there was a lot of pressure onmy wife when we had our kids to
then leave everything and justbe a stay-at-home mom.
And there's nothing wrong withstay-at-home mothers, like
that's a blessing in itself andthere's many people that are
(34:01):
called to that.
But I was like super supportiveof my wife wanting to continue
on with the work that she wasdoing and like and at this stage
where my daughters are superyoung and the whole world is
available to them.
I love having conversations withso many different people and so
(34:21):
many different backgrounds andlike showing them like there's
all these different thingsavailable to them and at the
core of like what my wife and Iare called to is being a father
and a mother, and that'sbeautiful.
But I love just how people canbalance that and it's not like
(34:42):
it doesn't have to be this orthat, and I even see this like
in the workplace.
I love that kind of workplaceculture is being more open to
family life and like I bring mykids to the office fairly often
and I love that we're being,like as a culture, more open to
these things to make it work sothat like it's not so
(35:03):
compartmentalized in thesedifferent areas and that my kids
can really see like all thesegood things out in the world and
find their own purpose.
Shawn Nelson (35:15):
I agree and, by the way, there's not one right
answer.
I have a friend who's astay-at-home dad and in a way
I'm kind of jealous of that,like I talk a good game, but if
I were really committed I wouldhave sold all my stock in Love
Sack and just been there.
Yeah, I don't know because, bythe way, that's not me, like I
don't know.
Even if I had done that, if Iwould be there more than I am
(35:39):
now, because I'm not maybe wiredthat way where my friend maybe
is wired that way.
And, by the way, I think womenthis is a really tough thing, I
think for a lot of womenwrestling with, well, I feel
guilt because I'm not out thereworking if I'm a stay-at-home
mom, or I feel guilt because Iam out there working because I
(36:00):
really just.
But we need the money.
We can't survive without it.
I don't have the right answer.
I think we have to do what wehave to do to survive.
That's the cold, hard reality.
Some of us were meant to bestay-at-home parents, some of us
were not.
But regardless, if you get thechance to choose, if you have
the opportunity to choose, it'sa personal choice and I think
(36:22):
there isn't a right answer, Ithink, to your point.
Your wife may be a better mombecause she goes to work and has
that experience and success.
Then she would be if she were astay-at-home mom, resenting,
you know, her bratty children orsomething like that.
Right, and I don't know yourwife.
But my point is is that I thinkthat people have to feel that
(36:43):
out for themselves and be honest, be honest with themselves.
And the rough part is is whenyou can't even make the choice.
You are forced, as a singleparent or as a dual income home,
that you are forced to makedecisions just to survive.
And in that case I empathizeand I think, like welcome to
your cold, hard reality.
(37:04):
But take it on, accept it anddo your best, and that's, I
think, all we're asked to do.
I think we were all raised byparents who, unbeknownst to us,
were facing probably a lot ofthe exact same decisions and
challenges.
We were just aloof to it.
We're just dumb kids and, bythe way, god bless them for
keeping us in the dark andletting us live a happy, you
(37:27):
know, childhood.
Matthew Krekeler (37:30):
Yeah, so we're coming up, unfortunately,
towards the end of our time, but, yeah, just kind of thinking of
the future and everything.
Yeah, your daughters are youroldest, you said, is 15.
So you know they're closer tobeing on their own out of the
house in a couple more yearsthan mine are, but yeah, they're
(37:54):
doing amazing things.
I know that you ski and youdirt bike and you're doing all
these great things.
Yeah, could you share just kindof what are the ways that you
are encouraging your daughters?
Like, what things are theypassionate about?
How do you encourage that?
And then, like, what lesson,like do you hope that they take
(38:17):
with them as their adults?
Shawn Nelson (38:20):
Yeah, look, I'm really proud of my daughters.
They all speak Mandarin,chinese.
I speak Mandarin.
I served a mission for mychurch there, learned the
language.
We found schools that do halfthe immersion.
That's pretty cool.
They all play instruments.
They all play the piano.
They all are studying theguitar as well, and you know, my
(38:40):
oldest is kind of a virtuoso atthe piano, for sure, and a
songwriter.
The rest of them are doing okayand that's fine.
I think that music is a verypowerful skill.
I think that it wrinkles thebrain in ways that other things
don't.
You know, they've taken dance.
(39:00):
They've done all kinds ofdifferent lessons, jujitsu along
the way, I think, one of thethings I'm passionate about.
We all ski as a family, and Ithink that's good for a family.
It's something you can dotogether.
And water sports we're intothat as well.
So we're into a lot of things.
You know, I'm just a personwho's always been into a lot of
things, and so I guess, forbetter or for worse, that's the
(39:24):
reality that our kids are beingraised in.
At the same time, you know,we've pulled them out a lot.
They're not doing everything.
They've done different thingsalong the way and we've dropped
different things in the pursuitof having some free time and
letting them be kids.
You know they're not just goingfrom one class to the next and
the next.
There's a little bit of that,but not as much as you'd think,
because we've allowed them toabandon things that they're good
(39:46):
at, all these things you knowdance and singing and performing
and whatever.
But like you have to choose.
There's only so many hours in aday and if you don't, you'll be
eaten alive, especially withmultiple kids as a taxi running
them around and, by the way,that could take its toll and if
you're not careful that couldtake its toll on your core
relationship with your spouse.
So I would advise you to becareful of that.
(40:06):
But somewhere in there there'sa place where it works for your
family.
Lastly, I've tried to lure themall into dirt biking.
Dirt biking is dumb as itsounds.
Riding motorcycles is somethingthat I've only gone into my
forties, but I became fascinatedwith it because it's so
demanding, particularly off-road, and the only reason I'm
(40:28):
talking about it is it doesn'thave to be dirt biking.
But I've found it's notsomething I can do for them.
I can kind of do it with them,but they're on their own two
wheels.
They're gonna tip over, they'regoing to fall, they're going to
get hurt a little bit.
They're going to have to bebrave, because to really ride a
dirt bike on trails you have todrop off of ledges, you have to
(40:49):
climb up things that are verysteep and threatening and
sometimes not make it, and thendeal with the terror of not
making it and then surviving itand picking up the heavy
motorcycle and getting back outof the dirt and maybe a few
tears.
But there are lessons in all ofthat.
There are lessons in all ofthat.
(41:10):
My daughter just fell on herface the other day you know
riding, you know trying tofollow us on a trail, and she
got back up and was you know amess and crying and I thought,
oh, this might be it and youwait to see can she get back on
and when she does, because, bythe way, there's no other way
(41:30):
back to the car, like you kindof have to.
And then very next day she didher first race, completed 16
miles against bigger kids, againended in tears.
She's a bit emotional, but it'sone of the cool.
Now you ask her about it,there's just a little bit of
space, one of the things she'smost proud of in life.
And so find ways to that can,naturally and in a fun way, push
(41:55):
your kids way out of theircomfort zone, put them in
positions that bring them to thebrink, hopefully without
without damaging them, withoutcrushing them, and I believe
they'll be stronger for it.
And in my case, you know, dirtbiking has has played a role in
that, as crazy as that sounds.
So, but there's other ways andit's it's what I believe in and
(42:19):
I'm very proud of these girlsand I look forward to seeing you
know what they do with theirown lives.
And they're all, as anyone whohas multiple children knows,
these are individuals from thetime, from the moment they are
born.
They are born with theirindividual spirits and their
individual energy, and it's sosatisfying.
What a blessing.
(42:39):
I mean.
There's nothing yeah, there'snothing better in life.
Matthew Krekeler (42:44):
Yeah, I love that.
I couldn't agree more.
Yeah and like.
For people out there that arelike yeah, where do I even start
?
I love, the very first thing inyour book is just do something.
Just do something.
Shawn Nelson (42:54):
We have ideas every day these ideas flow
through your mind, like, oh,wouldn't it be cool if we went
hiking Planet?
Book the gig?
Look at it, you know.
Like, take Like these ideasthat you have as a father, they,
they might not even just beyour ideas, they might be
inspiration.
Take advantage of thatinspiration and do something.
(43:15):
I agree 100%.
So, whether it's for yourselfor your kids.
Like, get that book.
You know, take that class.
Matthew Krekeler (43:23):
Get your kids on a team of some kind.
Yeah and yeah, just like getout there and then the next do
the next thing, be the nextthing.
Just continue to encourage Allof these are.
Thanks for quoting Sean.
Yeah, these are.
Sean is from the book mypodcast.
Shawn Nelson (43:38):
Let me save you 25 years.
We got a lot of people who arelike, yeah, I'm going to be a
great writer.
We go deep into every one ofthese.
Sean isms each week and youknow I and none of it look all
the.
All the proceeds from my bookare donated to the future
business leaders of Americanonprofit.
My podcast has no advertisers,you know, I'm just putting it
out there to be useful.
(43:59):
But you know, the fact thatyou're even listening to stuff
like this, I think, shows thatyou have a desire to be better
at being a dad, let's say, andthat's only a good thing, you
know, I mean, that's, that's agreat thing.
Now, just now, just pair thatwith a little bit of action.
(44:19):
Number one, sean, isn't just dosomething.
And then number two, just dothe next thing and you're on
your way.
Matthew Krekeler (44:27):
Yeah, that's so great, sean.
It's so awesome to have you onthe podcast.
Thanks for being a part of GirlDad Nation.
And yeah, I just did something.
I listened to your podcast.
There we go, then I got yourbook and then I you never know
until you asked, so I sent youan email and asked for you to be
on the podcast.
I'm so thankful that you saidyes, that's right.
(44:48):
So, to wrap up this interview, Iwant to give you a special
opportunity Pretend like I'm nothere Want to give you an
opportunity to leave a specialmessage directly to your kids.
Shawn Nelson (45:00):
Oh, all right, lucky Duke, pepper and Valentine
.
You are the most importantthing in my life, next to your
mother, and even though I don'tget to spend all of my time with
you and sometimes when I'm withyou I can be distracted or
(45:24):
annoyed or who knows what thereis nothing on earth I love more
than you and I'm grateful tohave been given the opportunity
to be your father, and I take itvery seriously, even though I
come up short every day,probably every other moment of
(45:46):
every day, but I'm trying and Ithank you for your patience and
love.
God that is you.
Matthew Krekeler (46:02):
I'll find you, Daddy.
Thank you so much for myaudience.
Please follow Girl Dad Nation.
I'm on social media at Girl DadNation and if you love this
episode, share it with a friend.
Until next time, go be a dad.
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