October 27, 2025 • 18 mins
From Charleston roots to a growing national footprint, Amanda Kahalehoe has built a brand that’s both fierce and warm. As COO of Vicious Biscuit, she shares how her team balances bold, indulgent food with genuine Southern hospitality. Amanda and Zack dive into how her brand “out-hospitalities” the competition, the power of listening to guests, and what operational excellence really means in today’s restaurant world.
Zack and Amanda discuss:
- The origins and growth of Vicious Biscuit
- Why guest feedback drives innovation
- How to out-serve your competition
- Defining operational excellence
- Building loyalty through culture
Thanks, Amanda!
Links:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/amanda-kahalehoe-6683a987/
https://www.linkedin.com/company/vicious-biscuit/
https://viciousbiscuit.com/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Welcome to another edition of Give and Ovation, the
Restaurant Guest ExperiencePodcast.
I'm your host, Zach Oates, andeach week I get to chat with
industry experts to get theirstrategies and tactics to help
you create a five-star guestexperience.
This podcast is powered byOvation, the feedback and
operations platform built formulti-unit restaurants.
Learn what's actually happeningin your restaurants and how to
(00:21):
improve without just a longsurvey.
Learn more at ovationup.com.
And I am so excited to haveAmanda Kahalahoy with us today.
She is the COO of ViciousBiscuit.
I have heard her speak fromstage.
Amanda and I have connected atnumerous trade shows.
She has got such a greatemphasis on the guest experience
(00:44):
and has a brand to prove it.
So Amanda, welcome to thepodcast.
SPEAKER_00 (00:47):
Thank you for having me, Zach.
SPEAKER_01 (00:49):
So for those who aren't familiar, tell me a
little bit about ViciousBiscuit.
First of all, what a cool brand.
Because it's not like, you know,there are some brands that are
like try to be way superaggressive, and there are some
brands that are like very bland.
And I think Vicious Biscuitstrikes that balance of like you
hear it and it sounds edgy, butnot like I'm trying to be edgy.
(01:10):
So tell me about the brand forthose who don't know about it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
Yeah.
So the van brand started inCharleston, South Carolina in
2018.
So flagship location is in alittle, you know, town right
outside of Charleston, MountPleasant, South Carolina, one of
the suburbs of Charlestonproper.
And it took off.
There was such fervor aroundthis brand.
It actually started as acatering concept.
It's very indulgent biscuitcreations.
(01:33):
We obviously have a prettydiverse menu of other things,
not just biscuits.
We have our, you know, healthyoptions, shareables, craft
cocktails.
We do it all.
It's a very diverse brunch.
You know, we're open seven totwo on the weekdays, seven to
three on the weekends.
And the brand has justaccelerated its growth in the
last seven years.
So we started in Charleston,opened another location in
Somerville, which is justoutside, about 30 miles outside
(01:56):
of Charleston.
And then we spread out a littlebit just to understand and get
to know who our market was andwho our customer was.
So we have currently sixcorporate locations.
We have three open franchiselocations, and we have four more
franchise locations indevelopment as we speak, opening
in Q1 of 2026.
So we have scaled and grown.
(02:17):
And you're right.
So the brand, it's really adelicate balance between leaning
into that vicious name, but alsoleaning into the culture of that
Southern roots with thathospitality.
So we're vicious in what we doin terms of the food.
It's unique, it's you knowflavorful, it's powerful.
But in terms of the cultureitself, we're very deeply rooted
in hospitality.
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
Yeah.
And I think that the thing, likeyou look online, like I'm
looking at your pictures rightnow.
I'm looking at this biscuit,eggs, bacon, and potatoes.
And it's just like, oh man, Ifeel like I just want to go to
like auntie grandma's house andlike sit down and have that for
breakfast.
Like it just looks so happy.
Yes.
And I love that emphasis thatyou have on thinking about what
(03:00):
does the guest feel about this?
And that's something I've heardyou talk about before.
And so talk to me about yourphilosophy on what do you feel
like is the most importantaspect of guest experience
nowadays?
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
Yeah.
And that's such a good question,Zach, because I think today the
consumer expects more than justgood food, right?
They want to be seen, to beknown, to be met where they are
in their dining experience,right?
This landscape, they want you todeliver something that is
frictionless, that'spersonalized.
That's not an advantage anymore.
That is a differentiator in thisparticular climate of the
(03:34):
restaurant industry, I think.
So, you know, we live in a timewhere you no longer need to
outflavor and outprice yourcompetitor.
You have to out-serve them.
You have to out care for them,you have to out hospitality or
competition.
And I think what we've donereally well is that, you know,
we lean into the vicious side ofthat, right?
We've never lost sight of that.
And I think when brands haveleaned into automation and
efficiency at the expense of theguest experience, we've doubled
(03:57):
down on the hospitality.
And not just in the dining room,right?
We translate it across allchannels to really interact with
the guest.
You know, born in the South, butwe're built to serve our
hospitality everywhere, which ishard to scale.
We're all over.
We're up in Ohio, we're over inMississippi, Louisiana, down in
Florida.
SPEAKER_01 (04:14):
You're even in South Jersey.
Yeah, Florida, South Jersey,right?
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
Uh, not uh so yeah, no, I'm I'm joking.
SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
So yeah, I know I'm from Jersey.
That's what we call okay.
So you get it.
I think that's the sixthborough, right?
Yeah, I mean, I know everyone'sgot oh I got a cousin in
Florida, but I love that youneed to out hospitality your
competition because I love thatline of that your food and your
service, that's like tablestakes, but it's like how do
they feel?
(04:41):
How do they really feel, right?
And that hospitality goes beyondservice, as our good friend Will
Gadera talks about.
And it's about being seen, beingfelt, being heard, feeling that
on the other side, love, right?
And that uh hand-to-hand combatis what it takes to win in
restaurants nowadays.
It's no longer, hey, just put upyour sign and start flipping
(05:04):
pancakes.
You gotta have that hand tohand.
And if you're not ready to gethand to hand with your guests
and make sure that whetherthey're dining in, dining out,
that they know that you careabout them and their experience
and you're making it use theword frictionless for you to
connect with them, this mightnot be the right industry for
you anymore because that's whatit takes, right?
SPEAKER_00 (05:24):
It does.
I was at a conference, I was atQSR in Atlanta, and the other
speaker on my panel, he saidprobably the most brilliant line
I had heard in a long time.
He said, Before COVID, we werethe hospitality business.
After COVID, we became the foodindustry.
And I think that single shiftsaid it all.
You know, you wonder why trafficis down as an industry.
It's because people no longerfeel some anything when they're
(05:47):
dining out, right?
It's formulaic, soulless,predictable, it's templated.
That's something we really tryhard to combat and bring back
that hospitality and that fullservice feel, even though that
we're fast casual.
SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
So, with that, what are some tactics that you've
used to improve the guestexperience?
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
So if you don't know, we've really launched a
lot this year in terms of ourtechnology stack to really
understand, you know, ourcustomer base, number one.
But we also, I would say thesimplest and most overlooked
tactic is what we double down onis listening to our guests,
which is ironic, right?
This is your podcast and this isyour wheelhouse.
(06:26):
But I think brands really trulyforget it's not just about the
praise and compliments, thatfeedback that you get, but it's
patterns, it's preferences, it'sthe unmet expectations and
feedback that are hiding inplain sight.
And I think a commitment tolistening has directly shaped
our initiatives, right?
So recently we we launched acatering platform, rewards
program, branded mobile app.
(06:47):
That was all born entirely ofguest feedback through surveys
and studies that we did tolisten to our guests, and we
heard them.
They wanted flexibility, theywanted customization, they
wanted to engage with us beyondthe four walls.
So we tried to build anexperience around that,
integrating loyalty, frequency,customization, getting them to
engage with us on their ownterms.
(07:08):
But what I will say is I thinkthat's where it becomes a choke
point for a lot of brands,right?
You can listen, you canimplement, but then there's this
whole piece of follow-through,right?
So once you launch something,whatever it is, we stay in
listening mode always becauseour guests have lots of
opinions, whether it's aroundexperience, user experience,
menu visibility, menu ideation,delivery speeds, delivery fees.
(07:32):
We don't ignore them.
So we try to take feedback andreally apply real-time
adjustments, proving to ourguests that their voices are
heard and they're not lost in avoid.
And I think that's a reallyunderrated way to deliver a
great guest experience.
And I think too, it creates ateam experience where they're
seeing their leadership reactand respond to feedback in real
(07:53):
time.
And it empowers them also todeliver feedback and hospitality
and that experience over thetop.
And it empowers them to do thesame, if you will.
So hospitality starts here.
We try to deliver it bylistening and applying the
feedback and not letting it getlost in a natural void.
And that has elevated theexperience and really created
recurring customers for us.
SPEAKER_01 (08:14):
How do you differentiate between the really
vocal minority?
You know, there's one or twopeople who will come in and just
make such a stink about this onething, but it's just not a trend
that you're seeing.
How do you differentiate betweenthe trends and the loud one
person?
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Yeah.
We say no.
We do.
We can't be everything toeverybody.
And I think that's where we leaninto the vicious.
I will tell you, we get a lot offeedback right now around people
are very concerned what's intheir food products, and
rightfully so.
But we can't be everything toeverybody.
We might not carry a veganproduct, we might not have this
special soy oil that only thisparticular consumer can eat.
(08:55):
So we're transparent, we takethe feedback, we try to educate
and explain to the best of ourability, but there is a point
where we can only deliver somuch to the guest experience.
So we may not capture everycustomer.
We do our best.
Our most recent medu ideationhas been around gluten-free.
We have a wonderful gluten-freeproduct, probably one of the
best out there in terms ofbiscuits.
(09:16):
I personally like it more thanall of our other biscuits.
Don't tell anybody.
Well, I just told the world.
Okay, it's fantastic.
I won't tell anyone.
But we've curated an entire menuaround it because we saw this
growing trend of guests andconsumers that really wanted it.
But we're not dairy free in manyways.
So there's just some nuances tothat.
We're trying to listen to thetrends and the feedback, but we
(09:38):
do have to listen mostly to themasses because there's real
expense to that, right?
So you just have to know when tosay no.
Your brand is who your brand is,and you have to do that well.
And I think there's some greatbrands out there that do that.
I think that's the success ofChick-fil-A and the success of
raising canes.
They knew who they are, they dotheir product extremely well,
and they don't change who theyare for others.
They are their brand.
SPEAKER_01 (09:59):
We actually had just a couple weeks ago the what I
refer to lovingly as the sixthguy of five guys.
Yeah.
He was the guy that came in andthey they brought him into
actually they had a couplelocations, and he franchised
them all the way up to wherethey are today, 500 or
something.
Yeah.
Anyway, so I was chatting withhim on this podcast a couple
weeks ago, and the choice thatfive guys made to use peanut oil
(10:23):
and to have peanuts in theirstore.
I mean, there's five percent ofthe population that is like
either deathly allergic to orimmediately related to someone
who is deathly allergic topeanuts, where they can't even
walk into a five guys.
But they did that because theyknew who they were, they knew
who they weren't, and like thatwas a choice.
They're not the choice foreveryone.
(10:44):
Plus, not everybody wants to buylike a$25 hamburger and fries,
but some people do, and they'recrushing it and they're great.
I love that mentality of reallyleaning into who you are.
Like, how did you come aboutfiguring out what is vicious
biscuit and what isn't viciousbiscuit?
Like, what would you recommendto a brand who's trying to
understand where do I say no?
SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
It is trial and error.
I don't think there's a directroadmap.
I think there's a couple things.
You have to, you know, again, welisten to the feedback of the
consumers, but it really doescome down to the operation and
the team.
Because if they can't executesomething because it's complex
and or it creates a reallydisengaging or negative
(11:27):
environment for them, that'sgoing to translate down to the
guest.
So what we try to do is reallyput the operations, even when we
menu ideate, right?
So I mean everybody is on thetrack of LTOs, seasonality are
always trying to push traffic.
When we ideate, we're alwaysthinking about the complexity of
the business.
When we added first partyordering, we reduced the
(11:48):
modifications for the consumerbecause, again, it's a lot for
the team to execute.
We want their experience to bepositive.
And thus a lot of what we do andhow we say no leans into the
team experience.
SPEAKER_01 (11:59):
Interesting.
So, how do you talk to yourteam?
Like, how do you understand whatyour team is feeling about
things?
Do you survey them?
Do you just do store visits?
What's your philosophy?
SPEAKER_00 (12:08):
We do surveys.
They're usually on a quarterlybasis.
We spend a lot of time in therestaurants and we also have
weekly Zoom calls with them justto get their feedback.
You know, in particular, I havebeen on each GM call, I think,
since the start of August, oractually when we started pilot
testing.
So this goes back to July, ourapp, and just constantly getting
their feedback around theirfriction points and just hearing
(12:30):
what they're saying in thebusiness.
This created a negativeinteraction with the team.
This is very difficult to train.
This creates complexity whenwe're sending this out to go.
It's asking a lot of questions.
It's asking where can I help?
Where can I lean in?
Where are the friction points?
Where are the guests giving younegative feedback?
Because the MOD process for ushas a high touch point in our
(12:51):
brand as part of the operationalservice point.
If you don't know our concept,you order Fast Casual at a
counter, but everything else isfull service.
So we bring our food, your foodout to you, we bust your tables,
and there's a manager thattouches each of those tables to
get feedback from the guest.
So we're constantly ingestingthat information.
We want highly efficientthroughput.
We want great food quality, bothin dining and off-premises.
(13:13):
Our food carries very well.
So, you know, for us, a lot ofagain, what we say no around is
really just what works and whatdoesn't.
When we first started, we didn'tput everything on the
third-party menu because wedidn't know how it would carry.
We didn't know how it wastraveling.
We wanted to make sure thecustomer had the best experience
because if that was their firsttime engaging with Ficious
Biscuit, we wanted it to be asgood as the dine-in experience.
(13:35):
So a lot of it is just aroundoperational excellence.
SPEAKER_01 (13:38):
That word operational excellence is a
pretty polarizing phrase becausethere's so many things that it
entails and doesn't entail.
Like, what do you define asoperational excellence?
SPEAKER_00 (13:47):
Guest feedback, number one, the guest
experience.
I'm sure you've seen the rednapkin technique.
The guest has you have almost Ohmy gosh.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
I actually just was with John Taffer yesterday.
Uh the Craveworthy stuff.
I mean, yeah, I mean, that thered napkin thing is just the
getting them to come in thatthird time is just so critical.
SPEAKER_00 (14:06):
So we have a proprietary method that we know
in this restaurant at all timeswho's a first-time guest.
It's part of our script, it'spart of our operational
component.
SPEAKER_01 (14:15):
Do you put a sticker on their forehead?
It's like, hey, just uhsomething to that effect.
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
But at any time, the manager can scan the dining room
and any team member, and theyknow who's a first-time guest
versus not.
And there's a reason to thatbecause we know we have one
chance to wow that guest.
And if we can capture them asecond time and a third time,
there's tremendous lifetimevalue to that guest.
And so we're really monitoringfrequency, especially as we now
(14:42):
have more data points throughall of our new technology
integrations.
And we've seen this tremendouslift as we benefit from new
initiatives, benefit fromrewarding the guests, right?
Making them feel that they are apart of our culture and
community.
So there's just a lot of that'sreally what it's about.
It's just capturing that guestand getting frequency out of
them.
It's so hard to acquire a newguest.
(15:03):
You have such great opportunityto bring your existing guests
back.
And we love having our cultfouling.
I'm not joking.
Today, we just got somethingfrom a guest.
They made a country song aboutus.
Oh my gosh.
I mean, that's the kind ofguests that we have.
They run, they make ads for us.
I mean, we really do.
We get personalized letters allof the time.
(15:24):
I mean, that's how you know thatyou're doing something pretty
special.
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
Yeah, I love that.
Awesome.
Well, Amanda, who is someone inthe restaurant industry that we
should be following?
Who's someone who deserves anovation?
SPEAKER_00 (15:35):
Sure.
I had to think really long andhard about this question, Zach,
because there's so many amazingrestaurateurs out there that are
innovating and just inspiring.
So I picked someone that is alittle non-traditional.
They're not an operator, butthey make waves in this
industry.
Do you know Will Brawley,restaurant owners Uncorked?
SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
Oh no, I don't.
SPEAKER_00 (15:56):
So if you are not following the podcast,
Restaurant Owners Uncorked, youneed to.
Will Brawley, look him up.
He's on everything Spotify,Apple Podcasts.
I think he just has thismasterclass in storytelling and
connection and real worldinsights.
He has such a gift of gettingpeople to open up and not about
the headlines and the polishedPR, but about the real
(16:17):
challenges of the business,their lessons, their losses,
their breakthroughs, whatdefines the business.
He just has this unique abilityto connect all the dots across a
very human industry.
And he amplifies the voice ofeverybody.
It can be an independentoperator, a multi-unit operator,
legacy brand leaders, youngemerging founders.
He's archiving the heart ofhospitality, I think.
(16:40):
For me, for I didn't grow up inthis industry, right?
I don't come.
So I come with these fresh eyesand I have had to learn through
a lot of trial and error andexperience.
And I found that he is theconnective tissue, and we need
more people that make ourindustry visible and accessible.
SPEAKER_01 (16:55):
Yeah.
Seeing the logo, I know I'veseen this.
I know I've heard the podcastlooking at what there is.
And I mean, he's got 615episodes.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (17:06):
Yeah, he's phenomenal.
And there's some really uniquefolks on there.
But again, it's not just fluff,it's real challenges and real
stories of how people havescaled their business.
And if you're a restaurateur,he's absolutely one to give a
listen to.
SPEAKER_01 (17:19):
Very cool.
Love that.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Well, how do people find andfollow you in Vicious Biscuit?
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (17:25):
Viciousbiscuit.com.
We're on LinkedIn.
We're on Instagram at ViciousBiscuits.
We're on Facebook, ViciousBiscuit, TikTok, Vicious
Biscuits CHS.
And if you're in one of ourmarkets and we have 10 of them
currently, please download ournew app.
It's Vicious Biscuit.
You can find it in the GooglePlay Store or the App Store.
You can earn points, rewards,and uh secret menu coming up.
SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
Awesome.
Well, Amanda, for being thesweetest, vicious brand that I
know of, and for beingsongworthy, today's ovation goes
to you.
Thank you for joining us inappreciate it, Zach.
Thanks for joining us today.
If you like this episode, leaveus a review on Apple Podcasts or
your favorite place to listen.
We're all about feedback here.
Again, this episode wassponsored by Ovation, a two
(18:08):
question SMS based actionableguest feedback platform built
for multi unit restaurants.
If you'd like to learn how wecan help you measure and create
a better guest experience, visitus at ovationup.com.
Welcome to another edition of Give and Ovation, the
Restaurant Guest ExperiencePodcast.
I'm your host, Zach Oates, andeach week I get to chat with
industry experts to get theirstrategies and tactics to help
you create a five-star guestexperience.
This podcast is powered byOvation, the feedback and
operations platform built formulti-unit restaurants.
Learn what's actually happeningin your restaurants and how to
(00:21):
improve without just a longsurvey.
Learn more at ovationup.com.
And I am so excited to haveAmanda Kahalahoy with us today.
She is the COO of ViciousBiscuit.
I have heard her speak fromstage.
Amanda and I have connected atnumerous trade shows.
She has got such a greatemphasis on the guest experience
(00:44):
and has a brand to prove it.
So Amanda, welcome to thepodcast.
SPEAKER_00 (00:47):
Thank you for having me, Zach.
SPEAKER_01 (00:49):
So for those who aren't familiar, tell me a
little bit about ViciousBiscuit.
First of all, what a cool brand.
Because it's not like, you know,there are some brands that are
like try to be way superaggressive, and there are some
brands that are like very bland.
And I think Vicious Biscuitstrikes that balance of like you
hear it and it sounds edgy, butnot like I'm trying to be edgy.
(01:10):
So tell me about the brand forthose who don't know about it.
SPEAKER_00 (01:12):
Yeah.
So the van brand started inCharleston, South Carolina in
2018.
So flagship location is in alittle, you know, town right
outside of Charleston, MountPleasant, South Carolina, one of
the suburbs of Charlestonproper.
And it took off.
There was such fervor aroundthis brand.
It actually started as acatering concept.
It's very indulgent biscuitcreations.
(01:33):
We obviously have a prettydiverse menu of other things,
not just biscuits.
We have our, you know, healthyoptions, shareables, craft
cocktails.
We do it all.
It's a very diverse brunch.
You know, we're open seven totwo on the weekdays, seven to
three on the weekends.
And the brand has justaccelerated its growth in the
last seven years.
So we started in Charleston,opened another location in
Somerville, which is justoutside, about 30 miles outside
(01:56):
of Charleston.
And then we spread out a littlebit just to understand and get
to know who our market was andwho our customer was.
So we have currently sixcorporate locations.
We have three open franchiselocations, and we have four more
franchise locations indevelopment as we speak, opening
in Q1 of 2026.
So we have scaled and grown.
(02:17):
And you're right.
So the brand, it's really adelicate balance between leaning
into that vicious name, but alsoleaning into the culture of that
Southern roots with thathospitality.
So we're vicious in what we doin terms of the food.
It's unique, it's you knowflavorful, it's powerful.
But in terms of the cultureitself, we're very deeply rooted
in hospitality.
SPEAKER_01 (02:38):
Yeah.
And I think that the thing, likeyou look online, like I'm
looking at your pictures rightnow.
I'm looking at this biscuit,eggs, bacon, and potatoes.
And it's just like, oh man, Ifeel like I just want to go to
like auntie grandma's house andlike sit down and have that for
breakfast.
Like it just looks so happy.
Yes.
And I love that emphasis thatyou have on thinking about what
(03:00):
does the guest feel about this?
And that's something I've heardyou talk about before.
And so talk to me about yourphilosophy on what do you feel
like is the most importantaspect of guest experience
nowadays?
SPEAKER_00 (03:10):
Yeah.
And that's such a good question,Zach, because I think today the
consumer expects more than justgood food, right?
They want to be seen, to beknown, to be met where they are
in their dining experience,right?
This landscape, they want you todeliver something that is
frictionless, that'spersonalized.
That's not an advantage anymore.
That is a differentiator in thisparticular climate of the
(03:34):
restaurant industry, I think.
So, you know, we live in a timewhere you no longer need to
outflavor and outprice yourcompetitor.
You have to out-serve them.
You have to out care for them,you have to out hospitality or
competition.
And I think what we've donereally well is that, you know,
we lean into the vicious side ofthat, right?
We've never lost sight of that.
And I think when brands haveleaned into automation and
efficiency at the expense of theguest experience, we've doubled
(03:57):
down on the hospitality.
And not just in the dining room,right?
We translate it across allchannels to really interact with
the guest.
You know, born in the South, butwe're built to serve our
hospitality everywhere, which ishard to scale.
We're all over.
We're up in Ohio, we're over inMississippi, Louisiana, down in
Florida.
SPEAKER_01 (04:14):
You're even in South Jersey.
Yeah, Florida, South Jersey,right?
SPEAKER_00 (04:17):
Uh, not uh so yeah, no, I'm I'm joking.
SPEAKER_01 (04:20):
So yeah, I know I'm from Jersey.
That's what we call okay.
So you get it.
I think that's the sixthborough, right?
Yeah, I mean, I know everyone'sgot oh I got a cousin in
Florida, but I love that youneed to out hospitality your
competition because I love thatline of that your food and your
service, that's like tablestakes, but it's like how do
they feel?
(04:41):
How do they really feel, right?
And that hospitality goes beyondservice, as our good friend Will
Gadera talks about.
And it's about being seen, beingfelt, being heard, feeling that
on the other side, love, right?
And that uh hand-to-hand combatis what it takes to win in
restaurants nowadays.
It's no longer, hey, just put upyour sign and start flipping
(05:04):
pancakes.
You gotta have that hand tohand.
And if you're not ready to gethand to hand with your guests
and make sure that whetherthey're dining in, dining out,
that they know that you careabout them and their experience
and you're making it use theword frictionless for you to
connect with them, this mightnot be the right industry for
you anymore because that's whatit takes, right?
SPEAKER_00 (05:24):
It does.
I was at a conference, I was atQSR in Atlanta, and the other
speaker on my panel, he saidprobably the most brilliant line
I had heard in a long time.
He said, Before COVID, we werethe hospitality business.
After COVID, we became the foodindustry.
And I think that single shiftsaid it all.
You know, you wonder why trafficis down as an industry.
It's because people no longerfeel some anything when they're
(05:47):
dining out, right?
It's formulaic, soulless,predictable, it's templated.
That's something we really tryhard to combat and bring back
that hospitality and that fullservice feel, even though that
we're fast casual.
SPEAKER_01 (06:00):
So, with that, what are some tactics that you've
used to improve the guestexperience?
SPEAKER_00 (06:05):
So if you don't know, we've really launched a
lot this year in terms of ourtechnology stack to really
understand, you know, ourcustomer base, number one.
But we also, I would say thesimplest and most overlooked
tactic is what we double down onis listening to our guests,
which is ironic, right?
This is your podcast and this isyour wheelhouse.
(06:26):
But I think brands really trulyforget it's not just about the
praise and compliments, thatfeedback that you get, but it's
patterns, it's preferences, it'sthe unmet expectations and
feedback that are hiding inplain sight.
And I think a commitment tolistening has directly shaped
our initiatives, right?
So recently we we launched acatering platform, rewards
program, branded mobile app.
(06:47):
That was all born entirely ofguest feedback through surveys
and studies that we did tolisten to our guests, and we
heard them.
They wanted flexibility, theywanted customization, they
wanted to engage with us beyondthe four walls.
So we tried to build anexperience around that,
integrating loyalty, frequency,customization, getting them to
engage with us on their ownterms.
(07:08):
But what I will say is I thinkthat's where it becomes a choke
point for a lot of brands,right?
You can listen, you canimplement, but then there's this
whole piece of follow-through,right?
So once you launch something,whatever it is, we stay in
listening mode always becauseour guests have lots of
opinions, whether it's aroundexperience, user experience,
menu visibility, menu ideation,delivery speeds, delivery fees.
(07:32):
We don't ignore them.
So we try to take feedback andreally apply real-time
adjustments, proving to ourguests that their voices are
heard and they're not lost in avoid.
And I think that's a reallyunderrated way to deliver a
great guest experience.
And I think too, it creates ateam experience where they're
seeing their leadership reactand respond to feedback in real
(07:53):
time.
And it empowers them also todeliver feedback and hospitality
and that experience over thetop.
And it empowers them to do thesame, if you will.
So hospitality starts here.
We try to deliver it bylistening and applying the
feedback and not letting it getlost in a natural void.
And that has elevated theexperience and really created
recurring customers for us.
SPEAKER_01 (08:14):
How do you differentiate between the really
vocal minority?
You know, there's one or twopeople who will come in and just
make such a stink about this onething, but it's just not a trend
that you're seeing.
How do you differentiate betweenthe trends and the loud one
person?
SPEAKER_00 (08:32):
Yeah.
We say no.
We do.
We can't be everything toeverybody.
And I think that's where we leaninto the vicious.
I will tell you, we get a lot offeedback right now around people
are very concerned what's intheir food products, and
rightfully so.
But we can't be everything toeverybody.
We might not carry a veganproduct, we might not have this
special soy oil that only thisparticular consumer can eat.
(08:55):
So we're transparent, we takethe feedback, we try to educate
and explain to the best of ourability, but there is a point
where we can only deliver somuch to the guest experience.
So we may not capture everycustomer.
We do our best.
Our most recent medu ideationhas been around gluten-free.
We have a wonderful gluten-freeproduct, probably one of the
best out there in terms ofbiscuits.
(09:16):
I personally like it more thanall of our other biscuits.
Don't tell anybody.
Well, I just told the world.
Okay, it's fantastic.
I won't tell anyone.
But we've curated an entire menuaround it because we saw this
growing trend of guests andconsumers that really wanted it.
But we're not dairy free in manyways.
So there's just some nuances tothat.
We're trying to listen to thetrends and the feedback, but we
(09:38):
do have to listen mostly to themasses because there's real
expense to that, right?
So you just have to know when tosay no.
Your brand is who your brand is,and you have to do that well.
And I think there's some greatbrands out there that do that.
I think that's the success ofChick-fil-A and the success of
raising canes.
They knew who they are, they dotheir product extremely well,
and they don't change who theyare for others.
They are their brand.
SPEAKER_01 (09:59):
We actually had just a couple weeks ago the what I
refer to lovingly as the sixthguy of five guys.
Yeah.
He was the guy that came in andthey they brought him into
actually they had a couplelocations, and he franchised
them all the way up to wherethey are today, 500 or
something.
Yeah.
Anyway, so I was chatting withhim on this podcast a couple
weeks ago, and the choice thatfive guys made to use peanut oil
(10:23):
and to have peanuts in theirstore.
I mean, there's five percent ofthe population that is like
either deathly allergic to orimmediately related to someone
who is deathly allergic topeanuts, where they can't even
walk into a five guys.
But they did that because theyknew who they were, they knew
who they weren't, and like thatwas a choice.
They're not the choice foreveryone.
(10:44):
Plus, not everybody wants to buylike a$25 hamburger and fries,
but some people do, and they'recrushing it and they're great.
I love that mentality of reallyleaning into who you are.
Like, how did you come aboutfiguring out what is vicious
biscuit and what isn't viciousbiscuit?
Like, what would you recommendto a brand who's trying to
understand where do I say no?
SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
It is trial and error.
I don't think there's a directroadmap.
I think there's a couple things.
You have to, you know, again, welisten to the feedback of the
consumers, but it really doescome down to the operation and
the team.
Because if they can't executesomething because it's complex
and or it creates a reallydisengaging or negative
(11:27):
environment for them, that'sgoing to translate down to the
guest.
So what we try to do is reallyput the operations, even when we
menu ideate, right?
So I mean everybody is on thetrack of LTOs, seasonality are
always trying to push traffic.
When we ideate, we're alwaysthinking about the complexity of
the business.
When we added first partyordering, we reduced the
(11:48):
modifications for the consumerbecause, again, it's a lot for
the team to execute.
We want their experience to bepositive.
And thus a lot of what we do andhow we say no leans into the
team experience.
SPEAKER_01 (11:59):
Interesting.
So, how do you talk to yourteam?
Like, how do you understand whatyour team is feeling about
things?
Do you survey them?
Do you just do store visits?
What's your philosophy?
SPEAKER_00 (12:08):
We do surveys.
They're usually on a quarterlybasis.
We spend a lot of time in therestaurants and we also have
weekly Zoom calls with them justto get their feedback.
You know, in particular, I havebeen on each GM call, I think,
since the start of August, oractually when we started pilot
testing.
So this goes back to July, ourapp, and just constantly getting
their feedback around theirfriction points and just hearing
(12:30):
what they're saying in thebusiness.
This created a negativeinteraction with the team.
This is very difficult to train.
This creates complexity whenwe're sending this out to go.
It's asking a lot of questions.
It's asking where can I help?
Where can I lean in?
Where are the friction points?
Where are the guests giving younegative feedback?
Because the MOD process for ushas a high touch point in our
(12:51):
brand as part of the operationalservice point.
If you don't know our concept,you order Fast Casual at a
counter, but everything else isfull service.
So we bring our food, your foodout to you, we bust your tables,
and there's a manager thattouches each of those tables to
get feedback from the guest.
So we're constantly ingestingthat information.
We want highly efficientthroughput.
We want great food quality, bothin dining and off-premises.
(13:13):
Our food carries very well.
So, you know, for us, a lot ofagain, what we say no around is
really just what works and whatdoesn't.
When we first started, we didn'tput everything on the
third-party menu because wedidn't know how it would carry.
We didn't know how it wastraveling.
We wanted to make sure thecustomer had the best experience
because if that was their firsttime engaging with Ficious
Biscuit, we wanted it to be asgood as the dine-in experience.
(13:35):
So a lot of it is just aroundoperational excellence.
SPEAKER_01 (13:38):
That word operational excellence is a
pretty polarizing phrase becausethere's so many things that it
entails and doesn't entail.
Like, what do you define asoperational excellence?
SPEAKER_00 (13:47):
Guest feedback, number one, the guest
experience.
I'm sure you've seen the rednapkin technique.
The guest has you have almost Ohmy gosh.
SPEAKER_01 (13:55):
I actually just was with John Taffer yesterday.
Uh the Craveworthy stuff.
I mean, yeah, I mean, that thered napkin thing is just the
getting them to come in thatthird time is just so critical.
SPEAKER_00 (14:06):
So we have a proprietary method that we know
in this restaurant at all timeswho's a first-time guest.
It's part of our script, it'spart of our operational
component.
SPEAKER_01 (14:15):
Do you put a sticker on their forehead?
It's like, hey, just uhsomething to that effect.
SPEAKER_00 (14:20):
But at any time, the manager can scan the dining room
and any team member, and theyknow who's a first-time guest
versus not.
And there's a reason to thatbecause we know we have one
chance to wow that guest.
And if we can capture them asecond time and a third time,
there's tremendous lifetimevalue to that guest.
And so we're really monitoringfrequency, especially as we now
(14:42):
have more data points throughall of our new technology
integrations.
And we've seen this tremendouslift as we benefit from new
initiatives, benefit fromrewarding the guests, right?
Making them feel that they are apart of our culture and
community.
So there's just a lot of that'sreally what it's about.
It's just capturing that guestand getting frequency out of
them.
It's so hard to acquire a newguest.
(15:03):
You have such great opportunityto bring your existing guests
back.
And we love having our cultfouling.
I'm not joking.
Today, we just got somethingfrom a guest.
They made a country song aboutus.
Oh my gosh.
I mean, that's the kind ofguests that we have.
They run, they make ads for us.
I mean, we really do.
We get personalized letters allof the time.
(15:24):
I mean, that's how you know thatyou're doing something pretty
special.
SPEAKER_01 (15:27):
Yeah, I love that.
Awesome.
Well, Amanda, who is someone inthe restaurant industry that we
should be following?
Who's someone who deserves anovation?
SPEAKER_00 (15:35):
Sure.
I had to think really long andhard about this question, Zach,
because there's so many amazingrestaurateurs out there that are
innovating and just inspiring.
So I picked someone that is alittle non-traditional.
They're not an operator, butthey make waves in this
industry.
Do you know Will Brawley,restaurant owners Uncorked?
SPEAKER_01 (15:54):
Oh no, I don't.
SPEAKER_00 (15:56):
So if you are not following the podcast,
Restaurant Owners Uncorked, youneed to.
Will Brawley, look him up.
He's on everything Spotify,Apple Podcasts.
I think he just has thismasterclass in storytelling and
connection and real worldinsights.
He has such a gift of gettingpeople to open up and not about
the headlines and the polishedPR, but about the real
(16:17):
challenges of the business,their lessons, their losses,
their breakthroughs, whatdefines the business.
He just has this unique abilityto connect all the dots across a
very human industry.
And he amplifies the voice ofeverybody.
It can be an independentoperator, a multi-unit operator,
legacy brand leaders, youngemerging founders.
He's archiving the heart ofhospitality, I think.
(16:40):
For me, for I didn't grow up inthis industry, right?
I don't come.
So I come with these fresh eyesand I have had to learn through
a lot of trial and error andexperience.
And I found that he is theconnective tissue, and we need
more people that make ourindustry visible and accessible.
SPEAKER_01 (16:55):
Yeah.
Seeing the logo, I know I'veseen this.
I know I've heard the podcastlooking at what there is.
And I mean, he's got 615episodes.
Yeah.
Oh my gosh.
That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00 (17:06):
Yeah, he's phenomenal.
And there's some really uniquefolks on there.
But again, it's not just fluff,it's real challenges and real
stories of how people havescaled their business.
And if you're a restaurateur,he's absolutely one to give a
listen to.
SPEAKER_01 (17:19):
Very cool.
Love that.
Yeah.
Awesome.
Well, how do people find andfollow you in Vicious Biscuit?
Sure.
SPEAKER_00 (17:25):
Viciousbiscuit.com.
We're on LinkedIn.
We're on Instagram at ViciousBiscuits.
We're on Facebook, ViciousBiscuit, TikTok, Vicious
Biscuits CHS.
And if you're in one of ourmarkets and we have 10 of them
currently, please download ournew app.
It's Vicious Biscuit.
You can find it in the GooglePlay Store or the App Store.
You can earn points, rewards,and uh secret menu coming up.
SPEAKER_01 (17:46):
Awesome.
Well, Amanda, for being thesweetest, vicious brand that I
know of, and for beingsongworthy, today's ovation goes
to you.
Thank you for joining us inappreciate it, Zach.
Thanks for joining us today.
If you like this episode, leaveus a review on Apple Podcasts or
your favorite place to listen.
We're all about feedback here.
Again, this episode wassponsored by Ovation, a two
(18:08):
question SMS based actionableguest feedback platform built
for multi unit restaurants.
If you'd like to learn how wecan help you measure and create
a better guest experience, visitus at ovationup.com.
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