October 28, 2024 • 21 mins
In this episode of Give an Ovation, we welcome Jim Knight, a former executive at Hard Rock Cafe who has transformed his experiences into a dynamic career as a speaker and author. Known for his engaging style, Jim blends the charisma of Guy Fieri with the motivational prowess of Tony Robbins.
Zack and Jim discuss:
- The importance of building a rockstar team and cultivating a vibrant culture
- How to create a guest experience that truly resonates
- The significance of accountability and setting clear expectations for team members
- Why investing in talent leads to sustained success over time
Tune in to discover how Jim's unique insights can help elevate your restaurant's guest experience!
Thanks, Jim!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zack (00:00):
Welcome to another edition of Give An Ovation, the
restaurant guest experiencepodcast, where I talk to
industry experts to get theirstrategies and tactics you can
use to create a five-star guestexperience.
This podcast is sponsored byOvation, an operations and guest
recovery platform formulti-unit restaurants that
gives you all the answerswithout annoying guests with all
(00:21):
the questions.
Learn more at OvationUpcom.
Out annoying guests with allthe questions.
Learn more at OvationUpcom.
And today I am so excited wehave Jim Knight with us, who
spent over 20 years at Hard RockCafe and has gone on to have a
rock star career as a prolificauthor, public speaker.
He is a Guy Fiore meets TonyRobbins a beautiful blend.
It is the perfect combo.
(00:42):
It's like you didn't know thatyou needed a peanut butter and
pickle sandwich until you triedit.
That is the perfect combo.
It's like you didn't know thatyou needed a peanut butter and
pickle sandwich until you triedit.
That is what Jim Knight is like.
You're like Guy Fiori and TonyRobbins and you see him and
you're like I get it.
I love it.
We met when we were speakingtogether at Kathleen Woods event
in New York.
And Jim get this.
He spoke at the event.
He flew down to Florida, was it?
(01:04):
Yep, yep, orlando, florida, tospeak at another event.
Flew back to New York to finishup the event, anyway.
So he's a hustler, incrediblespeaker and I really, really
enjoyed and I was like Jim, canI have you on my podcast?
And he was kind enough to comeand grace us with his presence.
Jim Knight (01:23):
So, jim, welcome to the podcast man.
Well, first off, thank you forinviting me and all the super
kind words.
It is good, I mean.
I will start with just saying Iwas in awe of finally meeting a
lot of great restaurantfounders that were at that
Founders Growth Summit.
But I had known of you.
You and I had never met thisfirst time that we had met, but
I knew of you and I knew yourbrand and was lucky enough to
(01:44):
meet your dad that day, whichwas a real hoot as well.
But I don't mind the comparisonbetween a Guy Fieri what'd you
say?
Tony Robbins, I'm like I'lltake either of their money.
That would be cool, but thesedays I really am resigning to
just making peanut butter andpickle sandwiches.
Zack (02:11):
So that's my life, man, but honestly, thank you so much
for having me on the show.
This means a lot.
Yeah, well, it's amazingbecause I love your whole
concept of how do you create ateam that rocks, how do you
create a culture.
And maybe, before we kind ofjump in, I do want to talk about
how this connects to the guestexperience.
But kind of give us a littlebit about your theory.
What do you speak about?
Jim Knight (02:23):
Yeah.
So I mean you're alreadyhitting on it right now, I think
because of my music degree whenI was in college, the fact that
I was a middle school teacherfor six years, but definitely
there's no doubt, like you said,the two decades I spent at Hard
Rock International, which to meis probably even though they
struggle in some areas is one ofthe greatest brands in the
history of brands, and so I waslucky enough to be there during
(02:46):
some very tough but phenomenaltimes as well, and if you know
anything about that particularcompany their attention to
detail, their sense of urgency,their ability to get the staff,
these hard rockers, to fallmadly in love with them, but
then also they parlay that overto the guest.
I mean, they're treating guestslike they're true rock stars,
(03:07):
and it's easy to do, I wouldguess, if it's in a music
environment and there's coolstuff on the walls and it's loud
and crazy and fun.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it really is about thisrelationship that I think almost
every single restaurateur oryou would like to think that he
or she have hired the rightpeople to develop this emotional
attachment with their customers.
(03:28):
And so, although I willprobably be forever known about
you know, at least in myindustry, the culture guy.
I speak quite a bit, not just onorganizational cultures but on
customer service, on buildingrockstar teams, on leadership.
So of course we're all branded.
You already started saying itculture that rocks, service that
rocks, leadership that rocksbuilding a rockstar team.
I've used every iteration ofthe word rock and roll that you
(03:51):
could probably think of.
But that's the game.
I mean, it's really.
I guess it's some of it softskills if you have to use those
words, but I do get a chance todabble in the things that I have
some expertise and definitelysome experience.
I don't think those things aregoing away.
Everybody could get better withtheir culture, with their
service, with their leadershipand surrounding yourself with an
(04:11):
army of giants to go out thereand fulfill the mission that you
want them to do.
Zack (04:15):
And I think that is something that's so powerful,
because one of the things wetalk about is the employee
experience cannot exceed theguest experience.
And I actually remember in HardRock Cafe when I was a little
kid that's where I learned theYMCA and I remember our waitress
getting on a chair and doingthe YMCA and then grabbing my
arms and teaching me how to dothe YMCA and it was like one of
(04:37):
those moments of I think aboutthat quite a bit and I was just
so young.
It was like one of my veryfirst memories.
What a powerful experiencebecause they trained and got the
right people there.
And so, when you look at theguest experience, what do you
think is the most importantaspect of guest experience
nowadays?
Jim Knight (04:56):
Well, you're already hitting on it and I may have
even said it coming right out ofthe gate.
It really is about the humans.
It's the people.
I guess there's a litany ofthings that you could do and
I've taught creating a newservice program, and here are
the tactical nuts and bolts thatyou could do.
But at the end of the day, if Ihired somebody who was just
completely gaga about beingaround other people, being a
(05:17):
servant leader unto other humans, if I had somebody who had the
juice running through theirveins to say I know that I can
rock this person's face off inthe short period of time that I
have, if I could get more ofthose people, it's going to
completely blow the roof off thejoint.
When it comes to the experience,I still got to pay attention to
product.
(05:38):
I got to pay attention to theatmosphere and the environment.
I got to pay attention to theprice per value.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Atmosphere and the environmentI got to pay attention to the
price per value.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But at the end of the day, Ithink by a landslide and all the
work that I ever did with theNational Restaurant Association,
all the data I would ever seeproved that service trumps
everything.
It trumps product price,convenience, team, you name it.
(05:59):
And so when I look at service,what's the root cause?
What's the common denominator?
It's all about human behaviors,and so you know it sucks.
For, you know, an entrepreneur,a restaurateur, a general
manager when they're out therelooking, because some of that
stuff is really hard to train.
You can do it if there's someraw commodity there, but it's
probably easier if I can justhunt for them.
(06:21):
They're out there in the publicdomain.
They're probably working forsomebody else right now, but you
got to go out there and havethe eyeball constantly looking
who is the most interesting,perhaps a little bit irreverent,
unpredictable, authentic personI can find to put them into my
world, because I know thatunique people create unique
experiences.
So when you ask me the broadquestion about guest experience
(06:44):
all day long, it's going to bewho have I surrounded myself
with?
Who do I go out there and hire?
Because if I hire some lipsyncer, they're going to be
revealed, they're going to beunmasked.
They're just going through themotions to put in the time and
cut corners and punch the timeclock and go out and do whatever
they're going to do on theirown time.
But if I can find the rightpeople that are so completely
(07:06):
passionate about the business,as close as I can to me being
the owner of the thing, theybecome brand ambassadors.
They will talk about you.
They will get more people tocome in.
They'll probably attract morepeople like them.
So I think until we get intocloning, you're going to have to
go out there and mine for somepeople, but at the heart of the
(07:26):
guest experience listen, I'llput a bunch of stuff in my book.
I'll talk about a lot of thingsin my talk, but you're going to
hear a red thread throughoutthe whole entire thing it is
about the humans.
If I get the right people maybeI just start with a couple rock
stars I think that I couldprobably produce some
world-beating results.
Zack (07:44):
And I think in theory that makes a lot of sense.
Now there's the reality ofnumber one.
I'm already squeezed on marginsright now.
I mean, my prime costs arehurting, my end-of-day profit is
single digits.
My traffic count is down.
I've taken price as much as Ican.
How do I afford to more people?
(08:05):
And then, from the tacticalside, how do I train the people
I have?
How do I create the culturethat rocks, create the kind of
culture that lets someone get upon a chair and teach a kid how
to do YMCA?
How do you work with what yougot if you can't afford the A
plus talent?
Jim Knight (08:25):
Yeah, it's the toughest industry to be in,
isn't it?
Because of the margins.
I mean you really have to havea love for it.
I don't think people go into it.
I can't do anything else.
I think they really love theindustry and they want to make a
go at it.
And some people want to domulti locations and some are mom
and pop.
They're just.
They want to try and crush itwith their one.
It doesn't matter to me.
What I've learned is that youlook at a P&L and it's so easy
(08:47):
for us to measure all thedifferent things that jump off
of a P&L.
I can see when a number is off,whether it's cost of sale or
labor cost or food production,whatever.
I can make some adjustments onthat.
Where I think we falter andthere are some companies out
there, like Black BoxIntelligence, who used to be
part of People Report and it'sexactly what you think.
(09:08):
There is a people report If youactually look at the people
that you have currently on board.
Here's where I think you couldafford to actually not
necessarily bring on more people.
I know that's not your intentwhen you worded it that way.
I'm saying have the rightpeople, I think probably will
spend more money.
They're a monumental pain inthe butt.
You might have to do somecustomized benefits.
(09:28):
You're going to have to love onthem some more.
You're going to provide themsome more development.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All of that stuff costs.
But I think if you could reduceturnover turnover, in my mind,
is almost the root of all evilin the restaurant industry If I
could reduce that down, let'sjust say 5%, there's a ton of
money that's out there that Icould put into the rock stars.
(09:48):
Am I going to have the perfectcrew?
Will I have the right staff?
100% rock stars?
No, but let's say I can get to20, 25% of them.
So now you're looking at sortof the 80-20 rule.
I'm going to focus on the oneswho can absolutely produce the
result, knowing full well theones that aren't.
They're going to come and go.
I probably can pay a little bitless.
(10:11):
These awesome rock stars willrun the others out.
They'll vote them off theisland.
For me, I don't have to managethe process as much and all of a
sudden I see less accidents,less incident reports.
I see less people complainingfrom a guest standpoint.
There are so many things thatpeople just don't look at the
quantifiable metric.
What they're doing is lookingat their traditional P&L and the
(10:31):
people side sort of gets pushedaside.
Everybody wants an awesomegroup I get that but I think if
you look in terms and go, let'ssee where we could actually save
money, so I could put it intothe ones, because they probably
are going to cost a little bitmore, but I would rather get rid
of two people that are justmediocre to bad to find the one
rock star.
I'd rather pay that person alot more.
Now, having said that, thereare companies now.
(10:53):
They don't think in those termsand they'd rather replace the
people.
So you're getting into kiosks,you're getting into automation.
As AI and robotics come along,you're going to have to make
some tough decisions and therewill probably be fewer people on
any given shift.
So if you're a brand that had20 people and now you're going
to get out to 10 because you can, you're going to spend the
(11:13):
money on all this other stufffor the long haul Well then
those 10 ought to be theabsolute best you can find in
the industry and you can nolonger tell me there's not good
talent out there.
I don't care what generationyou want to look at, there are
awesome people.
They just happen to be outthere working for somebody else
and you're going to have to peelthem off from those particular
brands.
So I'm not resorting.
(11:35):
I hear what you're saying.
I'm not going to come off of myopinion.
I think if more companies focuson the people and surrounded
themselves with that, you willabsolutely produce these
Herculean results year on year,not just in a one-time year.
I think their trajectory lookslike a hockey stick and I'll end
with this too.
I think there's too manycompanies out there that swear
(11:55):
now.
The only reason they are wherethey are is because of their
culture.
And when you really ask them,when you deep dive and go and
look underneath the hood, whatthey're saying is my people, you
can copy my product, you cancopy the environment, you can
come in here and stealeverything that I have.
But if you can't get my people,you're never going to be able
to recreate my culture.
(12:16):
And there are too manycompanies like the Chick-fil-A's
of the world or SouthwestAirlines.
If we're coming out of theindustry, that will go as long
as I have these cool kids.
You're not going to be able todo what we do.
Go ahead and copy everythingelse we do.
But good luck with that untilyou get the right people on
board.
Zack (12:31):
I love that concept of getting the right people on the
bus and I think a lot of it isputting them in the right
position and sometimes what Ifound is making sure they have
the ability to succeed.
I think this is something thatus, as leaders, so often forget.
It's hard to be perfect at it,but in order for someone to be a
rock star, they need to knowwhat song you're playing.
(12:54):
And it's really tough when youget out there and you're like,
okay, go put on a killerperformance, and yet you didn't
do the marketing to get thepeople at the venue, you didn't
tell them what the set list was,you didn't let them practice
with their band, and then theydon't do a good job and we say,
man, that person sucks.
(13:14):
And it's like I think there'ssome accountability there in
terms of are we, one, settingthe right expectation that from
the beginning, they understandwhat does success look like,
what does done look like?
And, number two, do they havethe tools and timeline and
training enabled to get themthere?
And three, do they have thesystems and processes that they
(13:36):
could be held accountable forthat and that you could help
them through that, to ask themquestions?
And I feel like, without thatexpectation, without the tools
and timelines and without thesystems, we need to look at
ourselves before we say oh, wehired the wrong person, right
yeah 100%.
Jim Knight (13:55):
Yeah, so my background, as we talked about,
was running, training anddevelopment.
So you're speaking my language,because I think there should be
a system in place for everysingle area of the employee
lifecycle.
How do you even think aboutgoing out and finding them,
recruiting them, interviewingthem, hiring them, onboarding,
orientation, communicating,training, developing, rewarding,
(14:19):
recognizing, even terminatingthem?
There should be a system in allof these, and I have become a
system guy, in fact, working forHard Rock, we operated in the
gray quite a bit.
It was t-shirts and burgers androck and roll and you open the
door and whatever happenedhappened.
And then something happenedalong the line where I started
to see a lot of these thingsthat these awesome rock stars
were putting into place managersand staff, that I could
(14:42):
systematize the thing and I justsaid in my mind why not make
that a part of the training?
So when I first started withthat particular company, there
were only 12 locations.
When I left, there were like250, and then they were into
hotels and casinos and livemusic and everything else.
But that stuff didn't happen byaccident and I think part of
what you're talking about isthere is nothing worse.
(15:03):
I almost equate it to the sameas a guest.
There's nothing worse thansomebody in marketing spending a
ton of money commercials,billboards, social media beating
on our chest Look how awesomewe are only to put people into
an environment that it's notthat awesome, it's just meh at
best.
I equated the same way from aninternal standpoint.
My entire career has been belowthe surface, not focusing on
(15:26):
the guests but focusing on theteam member, and I'm going man,
if I could not just have areally good orientation which,
by the way, zach, I got to behonest with you, the more times
that I spend with restaurantcompanies, I think they've
gotten better, but for so manythey're doing a pretty piss poor
job of orientations.
I see sometimes two, threehours, they kind of tell the
(15:47):
story, but then out comes thehandbook of what you can and
can't do and what will get youfired.
And now let's do a tour andlet's have an employee meal and
oh, in the afternoon, here's thespatula.
Get to work Like that in theirmind.
Half day orientation is goodenough and I think you're
missing the boat.
And there are too many great,awesome companies again in this
(16:07):
industry that are spendingsometimes an entire day on just
the story, the mission, thevalues and what you were just
talking about, the servicephilosophy.
If I never tell you what theservice philosophy is, other
than a sentence or two in amanual somewhere, and I never
measure against it I never talkabout it again.
It isn't a part of our valueorientation.
(16:28):
I'm not doing it in ourstand-up, pre-shifts or whatever
it is.
I think I'm missing the boat onall that.
I think if you hire somephenomenal people in lieu of
leadership, I'm going to do thebest I can, and if I've got a
great rock star out there,they're going to do it the way
that they want to do it and itmight be contradictory to what I
was planning and their ideamight be good.
(16:49):
But now, like you said, we'renot on the same sheet of paper.
I'm telling you we need to beheading in this direction and
this really good person is doingthe best they can because I
haven't informed them.
Shame on me as a leader, butthe reality is we probably hire
some pretty good people outthere, but we as leaders are not
spending enough time and energysaying this is what I want to
(17:10):
have happen or, even better,let's have some discussions.
I'm going to have an hourworkshop around table 36 on
Thursday.
I need all the servers,bartenders, whatever and we're
going to talk about what is itthat we're trying to do here?
And I'll listen.
People have a voice but at theend of the day, I need us to
push back from the table going.
This is our true north.
This is what we're going to doto rock people's world, and if
(17:31):
we don't do that, then I thinkyou have to just assume you're
going to get the same resultsthat you've always been getting.
So I think there's a lot withcommunication ongoing, not just
the first day one and againhoping that you've hired the
right people.
But we as leaders you're righthave to provide them with the
right tools, have to communicatewith them on a regular basis,
have to hold them accountable.
(17:52):
If you're talking about thesethings and it's never it might
be in the job description, butthey don't put it really in the
performance appraisal.
The performance appraisalbecomes this fuzzy thing and
they've been here another yearand they're going to get a
little bit more money.
I don't even like appraisalsanymore.
I like performance discussionsand it should be around what
you're doing for the guests.
What are the end result thatwe're trying to get here?
Zack (18:12):
I love focusing it on the guests.
That makes so much sense, andfrom beginning to the end of, we
start with the guests and evenperformance is all based on the
guests and just powerful man.
So, jim, I know we're out oftime here, but who is someone
that deserves an ovation in therestaurant industry?
Jim Knight (18:32):
Oh man, there's some good ones.
I have a local one here calledYellow Dog Eats.
They're amazing in CentralFlorida, very eclectic.
It's really because of theowner.
This guy almost has no filter,which is hilarious on its own,
but he sort of has allowed histeam to take on those personas
and the product is great.
The environment's awesome.
I get bummed out when I'm nothaving an emotional attachment
to people whenever I go in there.
But I think from a nationalstandpoint I have become really
(18:54):
big fans of a couple Big Chicken, if you're familiar with them
Josh Halford, I love them.
Shaquille O'Neal, I thinkthey're really starting to hit
it really well.
I'm a huge fan of Bonefish Grill.
I don't think they're aroundforever, but I find them
extremely consistent, again, notjust in the quality, the price
point, the food and beveragefrom the people.
(19:17):
These people know my name and Isometimes won't go in there
four or five months.
They still know what I eat,what I drink.
They know my first name.
It's not just this oneparticular Bonefish Grill, I've
seen it a lot, but I also thinkJim that's partially you.
Zack (19:31):
You are a memorable guy.
Jim Knight (19:34):
Yeah, maybe, but hey , there's mistakes being made
all the time out there.
I'll say one more brand too,and it's in your world.
Let's talk pizza for a hotsecond too.
You know, I write about andtalk about Mod Pizza.
I really like those guys.
I think they might bestruggling right now, but from a
(19:55):
culture standpoint I really digwhat the founders have done,
but I'm starting to like thenumber two fast casual out there
Blaze Pizza.
I've been going into a lot andwhatever they're doing from a
training standpoint.
I'm getting direct eye contact.
I'm getting a lot of smiles.
I'm getting people bending overbackwards.
Sense of urgency again.
There's a couple that I can gothrough, whether it's on the
high end or fast food, and whatyou get with me when those
(20:15):
happen is loyalty.
I'm going to come back, spendmore money and talk about you
positively and, zach, isn't thatwhat every restaurateur, I
think, wants, right?
Zack (20:23):
Amen, Love that man.
Well, Jim, where can people goto?
Jim Knight (20:27):
follow you.
Yeah, they can check me out andmy website's probably the best
place.
All roads lead tonightspeakercom.
So night, my last nameK-N-I-G-H-T.
Speakercom, and I do weeklyvideos and monthly blogs and I'm
doing all kinds of stuff outthere if you're interested.
But thank you so much forhaving me on the show, man.
I can't wait till we get tohang out and have a few laughs
(20:48):
again in person at some point.
Zack (20:50):
Dude love that, jim Looking forward to it too and
for giving both my hair volumeand public speaking something to
look up to.
Today's ovation goes to you.
Thank you for joining us onGive an Ovation, jim.
Jim Knight (21:02):
I love it, man, you're the best.
Thanks, Zach.
Zack (21:04):
Thanks for joining us today.
If you liked this episode,leave us a review on Apple
Podcasts or your favorite placeto listen.
We're all about feedback here.
Again, this episode wassponsored by Ovation, a
two-question, sms-basedactionable guest feedback
platform built for multi-unitrestaurants.
If you'd like to learn how wecan help you measure and create
a better guest experience, visitus at OvationUpcom.
Welcome to another edition of Give An Ovation, the
restaurant guest experiencepodcast, where I talk to
industry experts to get theirstrategies and tactics you can
use to create a five-star guestexperience.
This podcast is sponsored byOvation, an operations and guest
recovery platform formulti-unit restaurants that
gives you all the answerswithout annoying guests with all
(00:21):
the questions.
Learn more at OvationUpcom.
Out annoying guests with allthe questions.
Learn more at OvationUpcom.
And today I am so excited wehave Jim Knight with us, who
spent over 20 years at Hard RockCafe and has gone on to have a
rock star career as a prolificauthor, public speaker.
He is a Guy Fiore meets TonyRobbins a beautiful blend.
It is the perfect combo.
(00:42):
It's like you didn't know thatyou needed a peanut butter and
pickle sandwich until you triedit.
That is the perfect combo.
It's like you didn't know thatyou needed a peanut butter and
pickle sandwich until you triedit.
That is what Jim Knight is like.
You're like Guy Fiori and TonyRobbins and you see him and
you're like I get it.
I love it.
We met when we were speakingtogether at Kathleen Woods event
in New York.
And Jim get this.
He spoke at the event.
He flew down to Florida, was it?
(01:04):
Yep, yep, orlando, florida, tospeak at another event.
Flew back to New York to finishup the event, anyway.
So he's a hustler, incrediblespeaker and I really, really
enjoyed and I was like Jim, canI have you on my podcast?
And he was kind enough to comeand grace us with his presence.
Jim Knight (01:23):
So, jim, welcome to the podcast man.
Well, first off, thank you forinviting me and all the super
kind words.
It is good, I mean.
I will start with just saying Iwas in awe of finally meeting a
lot of great restaurantfounders that were at that
Founders Growth Summit.
But I had known of you.
You and I had never met thisfirst time that we had met, but
I knew of you and I knew yourbrand and was lucky enough to
(01:44):
meet your dad that day, whichwas a real hoot as well.
But I don't mind the comparisonbetween a Guy Fieri what'd you
say?
Tony Robbins, I'm like I'lltake either of their money.
That would be cool, but thesedays I really am resigning to
just making peanut butter andpickle sandwiches.
Zack (02:11):
So that's my life, man, but honestly, thank you so much
for having me on the show.
This means a lot.
Yeah, well, it's amazingbecause I love your whole
concept of how do you create ateam that rocks, how do you
create a culture.
And maybe, before we kind ofjump in, I do want to talk about
how this connects to the guestexperience.
But kind of give us a littlebit about your theory.
What do you speak about?
Jim Knight (02:23):
Yeah.
So I mean you're alreadyhitting on it right now, I think
because of my music degree whenI was in college, the fact that
I was a middle school teacherfor six years, but definitely
there's no doubt, like you said,the two decades I spent at Hard
Rock International, which to meis probably even though they
struggle in some areas is one ofthe greatest brands in the
history of brands, and so I waslucky enough to be there during
(02:46):
some very tough but phenomenaltimes as well, and if you know
anything about that particularcompany their attention to
detail, their sense of urgency,their ability to get the staff,
these hard rockers, to fallmadly in love with them, but
then also they parlay that overto the guest.
I mean, they're treating guestslike they're true rock stars,
(03:07):
and it's easy to do, I wouldguess, if it's in a music
environment and there's coolstuff on the walls and it's loud
and crazy and fun.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But it really is about thisrelationship that I think almost
every single restaurateur oryou would like to think that he
or she have hired the rightpeople to develop this emotional
attachment with their customers.
(03:28):
And so, although I willprobably be forever known about
you know, at least in myindustry, the culture guy.
I speak quite a bit, not just onorganizational cultures but on
customer service, on buildingrockstar teams, on leadership.
So of course we're all branded.
You already started saying itculture that rocks, service that
rocks, leadership that rocksbuilding a rockstar team.
I've used every iteration ofthe word rock and roll that you
(03:51):
could probably think of.
But that's the game.
I mean, it's really.
I guess it's some of it softskills if you have to use those
words, but I do get a chance todabble in the things that I have
some expertise and definitelysome experience.
I don't think those things aregoing away.
Everybody could get better withtheir culture, with their
service, with their leadershipand surrounding yourself with an
(04:11):
army of giants to go out thereand fulfill the mission that you
want them to do.
Zack (04:15):
And I think that is something that's so powerful,
because one of the things wetalk about is the employee
experience cannot exceed theguest experience.
And I actually remember in HardRock Cafe when I was a little
kid that's where I learned theYMCA and I remember our waitress
getting on a chair and doingthe YMCA and then grabbing my
arms and teaching me how to dothe YMCA and it was like one of
(04:37):
those moments of I think aboutthat quite a bit and I was just
so young.
It was like one of my veryfirst memories.
What a powerful experiencebecause they trained and got the
right people there.
And so, when you look at theguest experience, what do you
think is the most importantaspect of guest experience
nowadays?
Jim Knight (04:56):
Well, you're already hitting on it and I may have
even said it coming right out ofthe gate.
It really is about the humans.
It's the people.
I guess there's a litany ofthings that you could do and
I've taught creating a newservice program, and here are
the tactical nuts and bolts thatyou could do.
But at the end of the day, if Ihired somebody who was just
completely gaga about beingaround other people, being a
(05:17):
servant leader unto other humans, if I had somebody who had the
juice running through theirveins to say I know that I can
rock this person's face off inthe short period of time that I
have, if I could get more ofthose people, it's going to
completely blow the roof off thejoint.
When it comes to the experience,I still got to pay attention to
product.
(05:38):
I got to pay attention to theatmosphere and the environment.
I got to pay attention to theprice per value.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Atmosphere and the environmentI got to pay attention to the
price per value.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But at the end of the day, Ithink by a landslide and all the
work that I ever did with theNational Restaurant Association,
all the data I would ever seeproved that service trumps
everything.
It trumps product price,convenience, team, you name it.
(05:59):
And so when I look at service,what's the root cause?
What's the common denominator?
It's all about human behaviors,and so you know it sucks.
For, you know, an entrepreneur,a restaurateur, a general
manager when they're out therelooking, because some of that
stuff is really hard to train.
You can do it if there's someraw commodity there, but it's
probably easier if I can justhunt for them.
(06:21):
They're out there in the publicdomain.
They're probably working forsomebody else right now, but you
got to go out there and havethe eyeball constantly looking
who is the most interesting,perhaps a little bit irreverent,
unpredictable, authentic personI can find to put them into my
world, because I know thatunique people create unique
experiences.
So when you ask me the broadquestion about guest experience
(06:44):
all day long, it's going to bewho have I surrounded myself
with?
Who do I go out there and hire?
Because if I hire some lipsyncer, they're going to be
revealed, they're going to beunmasked.
They're just going through themotions to put in the time and
cut corners and punch the timeclock and go out and do whatever
they're going to do on theirown time.
But if I can find the rightpeople that are so completely
(07:06):
passionate about the business,as close as I can to me being
the owner of the thing, theybecome brand ambassadors.
They will talk about you.
They will get more people tocome in.
They'll probably attract morepeople like them.
So I think until we get intocloning, you're going to have to
go out there and mine for somepeople, but at the heart of the
(07:26):
guest experience listen, I'llput a bunch of stuff in my book.
I'll talk about a lot of thingsin my talk, but you're going to
hear a red thread throughoutthe whole entire thing it is
about the humans.
If I get the right people maybeI just start with a couple rock
stars I think that I couldprobably produce some
world-beating results.
Zack (07:44):
And I think in theory that makes a lot of sense.
Now there's the reality ofnumber one.
I'm already squeezed on marginsright now.
I mean, my prime costs arehurting, my end-of-day profit is
single digits.
My traffic count is down.
I've taken price as much as Ican.
How do I afford to more people?
(08:05):
And then, from the tacticalside, how do I train the people
I have?
How do I create the culturethat rocks, create the kind of
culture that lets someone get upon a chair and teach a kid how
to do YMCA?
How do you work with what yougot if you can't afford the A
plus talent?
Jim Knight (08:25):
Yeah, it's the toughest industry to be in,
isn't it?
Because of the margins.
I mean you really have to havea love for it.
I don't think people go into it.
I can't do anything else.
I think they really love theindustry and they want to make a
go at it.
And some people want to domulti locations and some are mom
and pop.
They're just.
They want to try and crush itwith their one.
It doesn't matter to me.
What I've learned is that youlook at a P&L and it's so easy
(08:47):
for us to measure all thedifferent things that jump off
of a P&L.
I can see when a number is off,whether it's cost of sale or
labor cost or food production,whatever.
I can make some adjustments onthat.
Where I think we falter andthere are some companies out
there, like Black BoxIntelligence, who used to be
part of People Report and it'sexactly what you think.
(09:08):
There is a people report If youactually look at the people
that you have currently on board.
Here's where I think you couldafford to actually not
necessarily bring on more people.
I know that's not your intentwhen you worded it that way.
I'm saying have the rightpeople, I think probably will
spend more money.
They're a monumental pain inthe butt.
You might have to do somecustomized benefits.
(09:28):
You're going to have to love onthem some more.
You're going to provide themsome more development.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All of that stuff costs.
But I think if you could reduceturnover turnover, in my mind,
is almost the root of all evilin the restaurant industry If I
could reduce that down, let'sjust say 5%, there's a ton of
money that's out there that Icould put into the rock stars.
(09:48):
Am I going to have the perfectcrew?
Will I have the right staff?
100% rock stars?
No, but let's say I can get to20, 25% of them.
So now you're looking at sortof the 80-20 rule.
I'm going to focus on the oneswho can absolutely produce the
result, knowing full well theones that aren't.
They're going to come and go.
I probably can pay a little bitless.
(10:11):
These awesome rock stars willrun the others out.
They'll vote them off theisland.
For me, I don't have to managethe process as much and all of a
sudden I see less accidents,less incident reports.
I see less people complainingfrom a guest standpoint.
There are so many things thatpeople just don't look at the
quantifiable metric.
What they're doing is lookingat their traditional P&L and the
(10:31):
people side sort of gets pushedaside.
Everybody wants an awesomegroup I get that but I think if
you look in terms and go, let'ssee where we could actually save
money, so I could put it intothe ones, because they probably
are going to cost a little bitmore, but I would rather get rid
of two people that are justmediocre to bad to find the one
rock star.
I'd rather pay that person alot more.
Now, having said that, thereare companies now.
(10:53):
They don't think in those termsand they'd rather replace the
people.
So you're getting into kiosks,you're getting into automation.
As AI and robotics come along,you're going to have to make
some tough decisions and therewill probably be fewer people on
any given shift.
So if you're a brand that had20 people and now you're going
to get out to 10 because you can, you're going to spend the
(11:13):
money on all this other stufffor the long haul Well then
those 10 ought to be theabsolute best you can find in
the industry and you can nolonger tell me there's not good
talent out there.
I don't care what generationyou want to look at, there are
awesome people.
They just happen to be outthere working for somebody else
and you're going to have to peelthem off from those particular
brands.
So I'm not resorting.
(11:35):
I hear what you're saying.
I'm not going to come off of myopinion.
I think if more companies focuson the people and surrounded
themselves with that, you willabsolutely produce these
Herculean results year on year,not just in a one-time year.
I think their trajectory lookslike a hockey stick and I'll end
with this too.
I think there's too manycompanies out there that swear
(11:55):
now.
The only reason they are wherethey are is because of their
culture.
And when you really ask them,when you deep dive and go and
look underneath the hood, whatthey're saying is my people, you
can copy my product, you cancopy the environment, you can
come in here and stealeverything that I have.
But if you can't get my people,you're never going to be able
to recreate my culture.
(12:16):
And there are too manycompanies like the Chick-fil-A's
of the world or SouthwestAirlines.
If we're coming out of theindustry, that will go as long
as I have these cool kids.
You're not going to be able todo what we do.
Go ahead and copy everythingelse we do.
But good luck with that untilyou get the right people on
board.
Zack (12:31):
I love that concept of getting the right people on the
bus and I think a lot of it isputting them in the right
position and sometimes what Ifound is making sure they have
the ability to succeed.
I think this is something thatus, as leaders, so often forget.
It's hard to be perfect at it,but in order for someone to be a
rock star, they need to knowwhat song you're playing.
(12:54):
And it's really tough when youget out there and you're like,
okay, go put on a killerperformance, and yet you didn't
do the marketing to get thepeople at the venue, you didn't
tell them what the set list was,you didn't let them practice
with their band, and then theydon't do a good job and we say,
man, that person sucks.
(13:14):
And it's like I think there'ssome accountability there in
terms of are we, one, settingthe right expectation that from
the beginning, they understandwhat does success look like,
what does done look like?
And, number two, do they havethe tools and timeline and
training enabled to get themthere?
And three, do they have thesystems and processes that they
(13:36):
could be held accountable forthat and that you could help
them through that, to ask themquestions?
And I feel like, without thatexpectation, without the tools
and timelines and without thesystems, we need to look at
ourselves before we say oh, wehired the wrong person, right
yeah 100%.
Jim Knight (13:55):
Yeah, so my background, as we talked about,
was running, training anddevelopment.
So you're speaking my language,because I think there should be
a system in place for everysingle area of the employee
lifecycle.
How do you even think aboutgoing out and finding them,
recruiting them, interviewingthem, hiring them, onboarding,
orientation, communicating,training, developing, rewarding,
(14:19):
recognizing, even terminatingthem?
There should be a system in allof these, and I have become a
system guy, in fact, working forHard Rock, we operated in the
gray quite a bit.
It was t-shirts and burgers androck and roll and you open the
door and whatever happenedhappened.
And then something happenedalong the line where I started
to see a lot of these thingsthat these awesome rock stars
were putting into place managersand staff, that I could
(14:42):
systematize the thing and I justsaid in my mind why not make
that a part of the training?
So when I first started withthat particular company, there
were only 12 locations.
When I left, there were like250, and then they were into
hotels and casinos and livemusic and everything else.
But that stuff didn't happen byaccident and I think part of
what you're talking about isthere is nothing worse.
(15:03):
I almost equate it to the sameas a guest.
There's nothing worse thansomebody in marketing spending a
ton of money commercials,billboards, social media beating
on our chest Look how awesomewe are only to put people into
an environment that it's notthat awesome, it's just meh at
best.
I equated the same way from aninternal standpoint.
My entire career has been belowthe surface, not focusing on
(15:26):
the guests but focusing on theteam member, and I'm going man,
if I could not just have areally good orientation which,
by the way, zach, I got to behonest with you, the more times
that I spend with restaurantcompanies, I think they've
gotten better, but for so manythey're doing a pretty piss poor
job of orientations.
I see sometimes two, threehours, they kind of tell the
(15:47):
story, but then out comes thehandbook of what you can and
can't do and what will get youfired.
And now let's do a tour andlet's have an employee meal and
oh, in the afternoon, here's thespatula.
Get to work Like that in theirmind.
Half day orientation is goodenough and I think you're
missing the boat.
And there are too many great,awesome companies again in this
(16:07):
industry that are spendingsometimes an entire day on just
the story, the mission, thevalues and what you were just
talking about, the servicephilosophy.
If I never tell you what theservice philosophy is, other
than a sentence or two in amanual somewhere, and I never
measure against it I never talkabout it again.
It isn't a part of our valueorientation.
(16:28):
I'm not doing it in ourstand-up, pre-shifts or whatever
it is.
I think I'm missing the boat onall that.
I think if you hire somephenomenal people in lieu of
leadership, I'm going to do thebest I can, and if I've got a
great rock star out there,they're going to do it the way
that they want to do it and itmight be contradictory to what I
was planning and their ideamight be good.
(16:49):
But now, like you said, we'renot on the same sheet of paper.
I'm telling you we need to beheading in this direction and
this really good person is doingthe best they can because I
haven't informed them.
Shame on me as a leader, butthe reality is we probably hire
some pretty good people outthere, but we as leaders are not
spending enough time and energysaying this is what I want to
(17:10):
have happen or, even better,let's have some discussions.
I'm going to have an hourworkshop around table 36 on
Thursday.
I need all the servers,bartenders, whatever and we're
going to talk about what is itthat we're trying to do here?
And I'll listen.
People have a voice but at theend of the day, I need us to
push back from the table going.
This is our true north.
This is what we're going to doto rock people's world, and if
(17:31):
we don't do that, then I thinkyou have to just assume you're
going to get the same resultsthat you've always been getting.
So I think there's a lot withcommunication ongoing, not just
the first day one and againhoping that you've hired the
right people.
But we as leaders you're righthave to provide them with the
right tools, have to communicatewith them on a regular basis,
have to hold them accountable.
(17:52):
If you're talking about thesethings and it's never it might
be in the job description, butthey don't put it really in the
performance appraisal.
The performance appraisalbecomes this fuzzy thing and
they've been here another yearand they're going to get a
little bit more money.
I don't even like appraisalsanymore.
I like performance discussionsand it should be around what
you're doing for the guests.
What are the end result thatwe're trying to get here?
Zack (18:12):
I love focusing it on the guests.
That makes so much sense, andfrom beginning to the end of, we
start with the guests and evenperformance is all based on the
guests and just powerful man.
So, jim, I know we're out oftime here, but who is someone
that deserves an ovation in therestaurant industry?
Jim Knight (18:32):
Oh man, there's some good ones.
I have a local one here calledYellow Dog Eats.
They're amazing in CentralFlorida, very eclectic.
It's really because of theowner.
This guy almost has no filter,which is hilarious on its own,
but he sort of has allowed histeam to take on those personas
and the product is great.
The environment's awesome.
I get bummed out when I'm nothaving an emotional attachment
to people whenever I go in there.
But I think from a nationalstandpoint I have become really
(18:54):
big fans of a couple Big Chicken, if you're familiar with them
Josh Halford, I love them.
Shaquille O'Neal, I thinkthey're really starting to hit
it really well.
I'm a huge fan of Bonefish Grill.
I don't think they're aroundforever, but I find them
extremely consistent, again, notjust in the quality, the price
point, the food and beveragefrom the people.
(19:17):
These people know my name and Isometimes won't go in there
four or five months.
They still know what I eat,what I drink.
They know my first name.
It's not just this oneparticular Bonefish Grill, I've
seen it a lot, but I also thinkJim that's partially you.
Zack (19:31):
You are a memorable guy.
Jim Knight (19:34):
Yeah, maybe, but hey , there's mistakes being made
all the time out there.
I'll say one more brand too,and it's in your world.
Let's talk pizza for a hotsecond too.
You know, I write about andtalk about Mod Pizza.
I really like those guys.
I think they might bestruggling right now, but from a
(19:55):
culture standpoint I really digwhat the founders have done,
but I'm starting to like thenumber two fast casual out there
Blaze Pizza.
I've been going into a lot andwhatever they're doing from a
training standpoint.
I'm getting direct eye contact.
I'm getting a lot of smiles.
I'm getting people bending overbackwards.
Sense of urgency again.
There's a couple that I can gothrough, whether it's on the
high end or fast food, and whatyou get with me when those
(20:15):
happen is loyalty.
I'm going to come back, spendmore money and talk about you
positively and, zach, isn't thatwhat every restaurateur, I
think, wants, right?
Zack (20:23):
Amen, Love that man.
Well, Jim, where can people goto?
Jim Knight (20:27):
follow you.
Yeah, they can check me out andmy website's probably the best
place.
All roads lead tonightspeakercom.
So night, my last nameK-N-I-G-H-T.
Speakercom, and I do weeklyvideos and monthly blogs and I'm
doing all kinds of stuff outthere if you're interested.
But thank you so much forhaving me on the show, man.
I can't wait till we get tohang out and have a few laughs
(20:48):
again in person at some point.
Zack (20:50):
Dude love that, jim Looking forward to it too and
for giving both my hair volumeand public speaking something to
look up to.
Today's ovation goes to you.
Thank you for joining us onGive an Ovation, jim.
Jim Knight (21:02):
I love it, man, you're the best.
Thanks, Zach.
Zack (21:04):
Thanks for joining us today.
If you liked this episode,leave us a review on Apple
Podcasts or your favorite placeto listen.
We're all about feedback here.
Again, this episode wassponsored by Ovation, a
two-question, sms-basedactionable guest feedback
platform built for multi-unitrestaurants.
If you'd like to learn how wecan help you measure and create
a better guest experience, visitus at OvationUpcom.
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