AI is a hot topic, and there is major concerns over what jobs can be replaced with AI, and how soon that can happen. As we zero in on the creative/design industry in this conversation, Zoe and Vance chat with Wendell McKinney,(owner of creative agency Divine Persuasion Studio) to get his thoughts on the future of AI in the creative space, how believers should think about AI, and how he is thinking about infusing it into his own work!
To learn more about Wendell's company, and the work that they do, click HERE.
Give Wendell a follow on Instagram and thank him for this convo!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
We believe if we're going to proliferate the story
(00:02):
of the creator of the cosmos,the most beautiful story ever
told is the gospel. We have todo it with world class art. If
AI gets to the level of designprowess that can actually
replace a designer. First ofall, we're not that close yet.
If we do get there that actuallyfrees us to do more great
creative work that actuallyopens up more jobs for us in the
(00:22):
future. A pastorturn tech leader and a
millennial churchgoer, exploringthe intersection of technology,
culture and faith, equipping youwith innovative strategies to
support you as you live out yourcalling leader churches with
confidence to step into thefuture together. This is the
give it up podcast. Hey,everyone, and welcome back to
the give it up podcast. And thisis going to be quite a
(00:45):
surprising conversation perhapsfor a lot of people today,
because we have brought ondesigner Wendell McKinney to the
podcast doo doo doo doo.
See where you are on soundeffects here, I think. Correct.
Keep on going. We just randomclaps throughout it. Yes. But
(01:06):
the backstory on thisconversation is Wendell and I
were chatting at a conferencerecently. And being a designer
and a creative. I wanted to hearhis thoughts, and which I
assumed were going to benegative about AI Artificial
Intelligence, because a lot ofpeople are talking about how
they're afraid that AI is goingto take their jobs. And so when
(01:30):
I brought this up to Wendell, hesaid, Oh, my gosh, I love AI.
And I said, stop right there. Wewill continue this conversation
on Mike for the podcast, becausethis is going to be really
interesting. That'swhat we do. Like, we don't have
conversations in real life. It'sjust like, stop. We're not
talking anymore. Until we'rerecording. That's like exactly
lineal right there. Iknow. Exactly. Keep that same
(01:52):
energy. So yeah, why No, I wantto, I want to open this
conversation up and and startwith, tell us about who you are,
what you do. And then we'll kindof jump into it from there.
Well, first, just thank you somuch for having me. And if
you'll humor me, we at DPS,which is the studio that I am
(02:13):
the CEO and founder of privilegeto say that we always start
every conversation withthankfulness fans know it was
coming. So here we are excitedto talk about wherever our
conversation meanders. Buttoday, I'm super thankful. I am
going on a daddy date with mysix year old who graduates
kindergarten in three days,which is crazy. So please throw
(02:34):
in your thankfulness. And thenthen I'll introduce oh, let's
let's keep the kid thing goingreally quick. I'm really
grateful. I have this rhythm andpattern now. With my second
daughter, Emerson, where we do adaddy daughter dance. Like every
morning, I just pick her up, Isuper up and make my own melody,
and she loves it. Like shedoesn't let me leave the house
(02:55):
without it. So I'm supergrateful for that.
Beautiful. I love that. And sothen I'm going to spin this on
its head and say, I'm thankful Idon't have kids. Yeah.
Is this an announcement? Are we?
Absolutely not? Yeah.
But in a few short months.
(03:15):
I'm dead. Yes. No, I love that.
Thank you. I know for startingwith that. Of course. Thank you.
So you're are in this space,where you are a designer and you
love making churches art morebeautiful. I want to hear let's
let's unpack your thoughtsaround what the church should be
doing when it comes to elevatingart. Man,
(03:39):
that is such a deep question. Icould go in so many ways. It's
so funny. I don't know how youboth feel about this. But
lately, when people ask mequestions, I'm tempted to use
the phrase, I don't considermyself the expert. But then I
have to catch myself now. It'slike, Wait, people are using our
resource and our platform,because we are the experts. So I
will say I am learning a lotabout the what I believe the
(04:02):
church needs. And although I dothink that we have a niche, and
we have a solution to what hasbeen a problem, especially over
the last, you know, 20 or soyours in the western Evangelical
Church stream when it comes tocurating aren't really well. So
I'll kind of speak to that.
First I'll say as a pastor'skid, and being in ministry for
seven years, I kind of knewfirsthand, a lot of the
(04:22):
difficulty that the modernAmerican church specifically
although we do serve a church inAustralia, we're looking at the
market in Brazil, because wehave some resilience on team.
Just I know really kind offirsthand the difficulty in
curating really high quality artconsistently over time. And what
most churches deal with rightnow is the geographical issue of
trying to hire someone on staff.
(04:46):
The cost associated with thator, like so many of us followers
of the way they're in thisspace, we're connected with
really talented creatives, butit's hard to keep someone kind
of gung ho in one singularcongregation. And so there's a
few You have us including my twoco founders, Josh via SMA via no
relation, which is fun. We justreally, it's great. And
(05:07):
actually, they both have adaughter and both his wife and
her are pregnant. So it's reallyfun, a lot of confusion there,
it's great. All that to say iswe pretty quickly assess, okay,
there's a there's a large gap inthis space, both in the
technological aspect of how artis curated through project
management software, but thenadditionally, just the art
itself. So the synopsis ispretty simple. We believe if we
(05:29):
are going to proliferate thestory of the creator of the
cosmos, the most beautiful storyever told is the gospel, we have
to do with world class art. Andit can't it can't be copying
what culture is doing. We needto innovate if Leonardo da Vinci
can almost lose his eyesight,because he's painting the
Sistine Chapel and paint isfalling into his eyes, and I was
broke his back in his neck doingthis, then we have to do
(05:52):
everything we can just likechurch history in our history
has always been intertwined, tobe at the forefront of the way
that art is curated, whetherit's visual design, digital
design, print design,merchandise, and it can't be
just cheap and nuanced copies ofwhat culture is doing. We should
be innovating and telling themost beautiful story with
beautiful art that stunning andcaptivating and it also is
(06:14):
worthy of the name of Jesus.
That's powerful. That's so cool.
I've never heard you articulateit that way. Oh, my gosh, that's
so good.
Yeah, that that's amazing. Ijust want to give a quick
because you mentioned DPS team,can you quickly articulate for
people that may not have contextfor you what exactly you guys
do?
(06:34):
Yeah. So really simply, we are acreative agency that serves
churches, nonprofits, andthought leaders and about 95% of
our clients are churches. Andour goal is to partner with
churches on an individual basison a monthly subscription for
the foreseeable future tobasically be there off campus
creative talent. And we reallykind of market ourselves as a
(06:55):
one stop shop where we wouldlike to, you know, fine tune our
platform to best fit the churchindividually. So we have really,
really large communities withmulti site campuses across
different state lines. And wehave brand new church plants.
And so we offer visual design.
So anything graphic, whetherit's for print, or for in
person, or for social media, weoffer comprehensive, so really
(07:15):
anything you need there. Andthen creative direction and
collaboration video in motionthrough one seamless platform
and client hub that differentindividuals on staff can log
into and track all theirprojects. So project management
software, with dedicated clientcare to make sure that we're
with you for every step of theway.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of what youguys do. And you said two things
(07:37):
that I think are reallyinteresting of some pain points
you identified that y'all aresolving. One is the ability to
create consistently qualitypieces of art. Right? That's one
thing I heard. And then theother is the cost structure to
support that. Can you speak tobecause this podcast is all
about technology and innovation?
Can you speak to how you'redisrupting that? How you're
(07:59):
innovating on that to make itpossible for somebody to work
with DPS? Absolutely.
So kind of have to sink answersfor you. One would be for most
communities of faith, what we'reused to doing is the church
grows. And as the church grows,your need for art grows, right.
So something that you and I'vetalked about a lot we're saying
(08:21):
to a lot of pastors and churchleaders is church creative is
now the third, in our opinion,the third most important thing
in your community. So number oneis caring for the individuals
that would call themselves apart of your community or for
caring about the local communityyou're in. Number two would be
making sure that tithes andofferings are coming in, let's
go flow fam, we got to make surethat there's actual resource to
(08:41):
make all this go. And thennumber three would be how you're
curating yourself online and inperson through really beautiful
art. That said, what mostchurches are doing is staffing,
or working with a band ofvolunteers or working with a
freelancer. And the difficultythere is the cost, you can only
choose one of the three, if yougo any of those three routes,
you can go for cost efficiency,you can go for high quality art,
(09:04):
or you can go for a quickturnaround times. And there's no
way to get all three if you tryto go any of those routes. And
additionally, a lot of churchesas they grow, they just have to
keep on adding more staff orkeep on you know, leveraging
volunteers more or keep onfinding another talented
Freelancer but it's really hardto keep them in the door. So
what we can do is we give youbetter quality art quicker, at
(09:26):
less cost. But the really bigthing for us and this is a
secondary heartbeat of everyoneon our team is and it's I'm not
even mad, I'm not mad I get Iwas there. But pastors don't
really understand what it takesto lead creatives and creative
in the church space has been somismanaged. And so many
creatives get burnt out, andthey leave the church and we
(09:47):
have these 28 year olds thatwon't even show up to a church
anymore because they lie on thecreative team where the
volunteer team is really Hey,let us take care of the bulk or
at least the really high endwork for you. You could still
staff some people or volunteerbut in Instead of relying fully
on what you can do in house, letus take off a lot of that worry.
And my greatest joy is, and thisis the thing I say to pastors
(10:08):
and leaders now a lot when we'retalking to him about a potential
partnership is what we find.
After three or four months, thecreative director or creative
pastor or executive pastor,whoever oversees the area comes
back. And it's like, wow, I justmake a request. And I go about
my day, and I know, greatartists on the way. So I think
that answers your question,Vance. Yeah,
no, it does. The follow. Thefollow up question to that is,
it's so interesting that youframe one of those important
(10:31):
pillars as art versus even likecommunication or distribution.
Right, it seems that a lot ofthe focus and investment at
modern churches today is hey, weneed to be on all the social
media channels. It's all aboutdistribution. It's about kind of
getting the voice out. Andthat's kind of the so you talked
(10:51):
about carrying, that's thepastoral hat of the church, you
talked about resources,obviously, that's needed to be
able to do everything that thechurch does. And then the other
side of a pastor is a herald,right. So they're their
shepherd. They're also a herald.
And so it's interesting that youframe it as art versus
distribution, or communication.
(11:15):
Is that intentional? If so, why?
Absolutely.
It's intentional for us, we justbelieve the story of Jesus.
Amongst way, way betterdescriptions is a work of art.
He's built a tapestry. I mean,if you if you look at the canon
of Scripture, all literary work,and every story ever told, every
film ever made, has its basis inthe canon of Scripture, it is
(11:40):
brilliant, even if you don't,something we've said a lot is,
if Jesus, if the story of thisRabbi Carpenter, Yahweh, Jesus
that actually walked andbreathed on this planet 2000
some odd years ago, is real. Oh,my gosh, our life has changed,
right? But even if his storywere work of fiction, it is
still the greatest story of alltime that God put on flesh and
(12:01):
bone and decided to die, likecome up with a better story,
come up with when you can.
Right. So all that to say is, wetruly believe that when it comes
to telling the story of Jesusand the modern church, the
Western Church evangelical Well,we are trying to reach people
with the story. And the way thatthe stories and an art and
culture is curated today. Imean, we could go through the
(12:22):
gamut of whether it's Hollywoodor Hypebeast, or, or sports or
artistry, or any number ofindividuals, poets, artists,
collaborators now podcastersinfluencers, what we are all
doing is telling stories. Andwhat we have found and what most
churches who are early adoptersonto our platform now have found
is the modern church, you kindof need to think like an art
(12:44):
house, and you need to curateyour work really excellently so
that when people come acrossyour pages digitally, or on your
YouTube or your your podcast, oron Instagram, the Almighty
algorithm, right? You need tomake sure that what you are
curating is really intense,intensely feeling like it's you.
Meaning it's not just a placefor someone to understand where
(13:06):
they should show up, you know,on a Sunday or Wednesday, they
should feel like they're alreadya part of the community when
they touch your space digitally,is something you'll have talked
about a lot, Vance. Soit's, it's fascinating that
Bernard Arnault is now therichest person on the planet,
right? Yeah, that's obviouslynot the only metric of success
or impact. But it is interestingthat that spot is no longer a
(13:28):
technologist. Right? It's a it'sa person that owns fashion
brands. Right? It's a personthat owns a bunch of high end
art effectuated, through thesedifferent brands. And so I think
that that's really, reallyinteresting. I love that man. So
good.
(13:49):
Yeah, Wendell, I think whatyou're saying is extremely
compelling, because it gives anew language to what people
innately feel is true. You know,and it's so easy with so much
content, to go back to the rootsin the basics of, oh my gosh,
wait, all of these platforms,like especially Instagram, for
(14:09):
example. It was supposed to befor art. And we've gotten away
with just pushing for contentsake. And so I love that you go
back to the historicity of it,and also sharing that there is a
much bigger element behind allof this. And tying it back to to
gospel story, of course. And,you know, we talked on this
(14:31):
podcast about how we want to bethe bridge between tech and in
the face space. But what we hateis that the church is always
last to adopt things. So hereyou have this innovative lens of
what design should look like.
And now we're in this culturalmoment where artificial
intelligence is starting to comeinto frame and the church has no
(14:55):
idea what to do with it. itbecause they're like, this is
scary. This could take awaypeople's jobs. This isn't the
gospel. It's robots, you know.
So I would love to first justcrack this open. Why are you
sitting here today telling usthat you are very much for
(15:18):
artificial intelligence in thedesign space?
First, I would just say that Ithink, historically speaking,
the church has always been atthe forefront of technological
advancement, as well as at theforefront of art. And we could
go on story after story. And I'msure Vance could quote a lot
more than I could. That Thatsaid, I think I mean, to make it
(15:41):
really simple, would you stopusing a microphone on a Sunday?
Because microphones could berecorded and weird things could
happen. Or you could amplify thewrong voice, or you know, what
we've all been in those, thoseenvironments at church where
there was some weird feedback,you know, like, the awkward
sound, or the tech team wasn'tquite what it should be. And if
(16:01):
you fast forward to now,obviously, in 2023, where AI is
at the forefront of everyone'slips, especially those of us who
you know, think deeply about thetech space, or are you all in
Silicon Valley? And for me, Ithink really simply my first my
first question as we are, ifwe're going to talk about
proliferating the gospel, andwe're going to start axing out
potential technologies becauseof some fear, I honestly believe
(16:25):
that that is anti Christian, Idon't live through the lens of
fear, I live through the lens offaith, which is God's divine
persuasion. So I am persuadedthat God is good, therefore, I'm
an optimist about whattechnology comes down the line.
And I always look through thelens of what could what could we
do to use this technology sothat more human beings could
encounter what it means tofollow the way of this beautiful
(16:48):
God, man, Jesus? So that's myfirst thought. Secondarily, I
think that as a as a designer,and as a creative, I'm not going
to be afraid of what technologycan do, I'm going to think, How
can this help me do less of thework I don't want to do so I can
do more of the work I want todo. I don't know if either of
you are familiar with navallRaticate, the Indian American
(17:10):
angel investor, brilliant mind,he talks about this, and I'm
probably gonna butcher it. Buthe has a brilliant mind for
business. He believes and Iwould believe similarly, that
when it comes to technologicaladvancement, potentially taking
away jobs from people, thatmight be true. So let's just
say, if AI gets to the level ofdesign prowess that could
(17:31):
actually replace a designer onstaff, whether that's at a
church or at a studio, or at anyplace that hires a visual
designer, or motion editorvideographer. First of all,
we're not that close yet. Likeit's not as if you can go into
AI or the dalai to and actuallyget a design that's really
innately beautiful, that feelslike your brand that knows you
and represent you well, and thenhave it put in every deliverable
(17:53):
use case, and then start postingit or using it that we're not
there yet. Secondarily, if we doget there, that actually frees
us to do more great creativework. Now, we don't have to
worry about that. And we canactually manage this beautiful
algorithm or manage this greatAI to do lower level work. And
it actually opens up more jobsfor us in the future. So my
personal perspective is AI, itmight take away some of the base
(18:16):
level jobs, but it's actuallyopened up more job opportunity
for us to manage that. So we cando greater work and probably be
paid more for the work that wecan do. Because our expertise is
now at a higher level than itwas before because we have a
technology that does thebaseline work for us.
I love that AI I believe isgoing to be a key for human
flourishing in the future. I'mpretty big optimist around this
(18:39):
to your point. Wendell, why I'moptimistic about it is because
there's infinite amount ofproblems. Have you been to the
DMV? Have you gone to thehospital? You know, have have
you like, interacted with thesearchaic systems that still exist
in finance? Have you seen howwhen I transfer money, it still
(19:00):
takes three to five businessdays, like you don't I mean,
like there's infinite amount ofproblems. And what's interesting
is that to your point, if a AIis going to make eventually,
every every human being on theplanet, three to 5x, more
effective or given opportunityfor every human being on the
(19:20):
planet, to be three to 5x moreeffective, we can start tackling
some of these higher levelproblems faster. And that's why
I believe that it's going to bea key to human flourishing. I
think what's going to be key inaddition to that is how
especially a role of the church,here's a role for the church is
(19:42):
how to unleash and democratizethis, instead of operating at a
fear, like you said, beingdivinely persuaded in faith to
be the hub where the educationabout this the inspiration
around this is effectuatedthrough the church, because at
the end of the day, the Churchhas all the incentive to be that
(20:03):
the church is supposed to be theplace for community no matter
what stage of life or what socioeconomic status that you are,
right. And so if only for profitcenters are responsible for
distributing the know howdistributing the inspiration,
distributing the access toleverage this technology,
(20:23):
inequality is going to increase.
Right. But the church is a 501 Cthree entity, and supposed to be
specifically positioned incities in local communities,
creating deep relationships withpeople, if we can actually
embrace it. As a local church,we can be a massive distribution
center for access to this what Ibelieve key to human
(20:47):
flourishing. Yeah,so I love what you're saying
dance because then that bringsinto frame this concept of how
can creative teams use AIproperly, dare I say, ethically
in a way that it does producehuman or human flourishing? So
wonder, what kind of guardrailsare you looking at as you're
(21:09):
starting to implement AI intoyour work?
Well, that is a great question.
I think that for for what ouruse cases, at DPS, I'll tell you
kind of what our vision is forhow we're going to infuse AI,
and then I'll circle back tolove the guardrails, I think we
should put in the vision for usis, first and foremost, again,
(21:29):
we want to tell the mostbeautiful story of all time in
the most beautiful way. So weonly hire a world class artists,
we have respect for that, youknow, that person who's willing
to grind and work hard has aheart for God and His use
Photoshop before Butrespectfully, that's not who we
work with. So that being said,we want to use AI to allow us to
do less of an not busy work, butfor lack of a better term, the
(21:53):
busy work of design. So what alot of designers have to do.
Now, let's just say you'rehiring a designer, you know, at
an ad hoc price of $100 an hour,right, you hire him $100 an hour
to do this project for you. Andthere's five deliverables for
them to do those fivedeliverables, it might not take
that much time. But they'rethinking creatively, they're
going out looking atinspiration, they're gathering
(22:14):
mood boards, they're goingonline, to looking at some old
work they might have done andthen at the end of that process,
they're going to put it all intothe separate deliverables and
use cases, they're going to putit through, you know, however
they organize within Photoshopor InDesign or Illustrator, and
they're going to upload all thatto Dropbox and they're going to
send you the dropbox link, thevery first thing that we would
like to do with AI is remove allthat busy work at the end. So
(22:36):
all the artists actually has todo is the design work, the
creative work. And if AI couldjust take off that bottom rung,
it's such a time saver, and somuch efficiency where a lot of
artists aren't even naturallygifted at you know, crossing
their T's and dotting all theireyes at the end, like making
sure everything is grammaticallyperfect, making sure that
everything is organizedperfectly making sure you link
(22:58):
to Dropbox, all that. And ifthat could just if we could just
take that off first. Wow, that'sa huge win. Secondarily, the
larger vision is, eventually wecurate the really high end work
like more you think like brandguidelines, high end assets,
logo work. And then we allow AIas it continues to flourish, to
bust out hundreds ofdeliverables in real time to a
(23:19):
client that can instantly bereset until you find what you
want, just like you would withchat GBT finding the right copy
you need, you just keepresetting it based off of a
brand identity that you'vealready agreed with. So we give
our designers the ability tostep up and think more like a
creative director. And then wegive this whatever tool is
developed, whether it's the Dalitwo as it continues or whatever
(23:41):
else might come from AI to dothe busy work. And to assess
really quick deliverables, wewant to create a design vending
machine, where if we've alreadycurated a brand for you, you can
get hundreds of deliverables forevery single use case you need
in seconds, rather than havingto go back and forth with an
artist or go back and forth witha comms director. So when you
talk about guardrails, this issomething that we're gonna have
(24:02):
to continue to invest in, andwe're gonna have to bring on
more technologists to reallylean on, I wouldn't consider
myself the most, the foremostexpert as it pertains to the
guardrails here. My opinion andI don't know if this is the best
is to move fast and breakthings. All that to say is in
the current space, I thinkmeasuring what the world is
(24:23):
doing culturally like the reallybig tech companies, and then
assessing that with otherthinkers like Vance like
yourself like others and say,Hey, what do you think are the
warranted guardrails that weshould put up and then kind of
working in a think tank in realtime dependent upon the use case
that we're rolling out?
Yeah, I love that. I mean, youknow, the fear around AI on the
(24:49):
extreme state, a singularity,right? This idea that all of a
sudden, the AI is going to, youknow, quote, unquote, become
smarter than us and thisTerminator It narrative
essentially, I think that we'renot in that phase yet. I would
encourage people to be more inthe mode of what Wendell is
saying here and move fast,learn, iterate, leverage this
(25:13):
technology. If you think aboutthis, right? How come 616 year
old kid can learn how to drive acar in a week, but we still
don't nail self driving cars.
There's still like a wholeelement of observability in this
life that AI has not been ableto intake the data for,
(25:35):
essentially. And so I thinkwe're still quite a bit away of
that fear around singularity. Ialso think about this
theologically. Some of the fearis based on putting a cap on
creativity. We're basicallysaying that, Oh, if you know AI
is going to do these jobs, thenit's going to it's a zero sum
(25:57):
game. But theologically, if webelieve that we serve the
Creator, and he has unlimitedresources, right, and we're just
barely tapping into all that Hehas for us. Then you can
probably be more divinelypersuaded in faith, to believe
that, hey, this is this isanother exciting the same way.
You know, we democratized copy.
(26:22):
And printing through theGutenberg Press, right through
the printing press is a similarway where we're going to
democratize art. And this is aprobably not a perfect analogy,
but similar to even the iPhoneand Instagram, right? Is that
didn't cap creativity thatactually unlocked and
democratized creativity forpeople that couldn't afford a
(26:45):
Canon couldn't afford a Nikoncouldn't afford some of these
tools that were necessary to geta good shot or to edit a good
photo. Right. And that allowedthe people that did do that to
elevate their game even further.
Right, bro, oh, my gosh, I lovethe Instagram analogy. It is so
real. Remember, I don't know ifyou recall. But when Instagram
(27:08):
came out, if you were an earlyadopter, you kind of got mocked
by your friends. I think intoddlers original tagline was a
fun and quirky way to sharephotos with your friends.
Whatever judgments people have,it is created so many people who
built incomes and fed theirbabies for sure. And bless
communities, the money that'sbeen raised, of course, we could
talk about the evils and outwhatever. But if you just take
(27:31):
it at face value, how much gooda technology can be used for?
And if you if you transfer thatover to where AI is. And to your
earlier point as well, man, Itotally agree. We're so far off
from this potential singularity,even the foremost experts if you
listen to any of them, right? Ifyou would, we could we could go
forever naming people muchsmarter, that are really at the
(27:52):
top of their game here. Butyou're basically going to have
to copy the human brain in orderto achieve that level of
singularity. And I think asChristians, we can rest pretty
easy. Do I believe the maker ofthe heavens in the earth, the
God who made the hippo the Godwho made the gray whale, the God
who made a palm tree sprout upout of nowhere, the God who made
(28:13):
this Bumblebee flying and landedon that flower that gives us
oxygen, he made the human brainso perfectly after his own
image, I highly doubt that ushumans are going to achieve that
really quickly, right after thisnew technology got advanced. So
I'm just like, Dude, I thinkwe're okay. I think God's in
control. Last I checked, I thinkJesus is still seated at the
(28:33):
right hand of the Father. Andhe's resting. And he's not
worried God is not up there inheaven worried about AI. So as a
Christian, if we're worriedabout AI, I think we have to
check it through the lens oftheology first, because God is
in control, and he is sovereign.
And every time a technologytechnological advancement has
happened, and the church hasleveraged it correctly, it has
furthered the gospel allowedmore people, more widows and
(28:55):
orphans and people who arehurting to receive financial
help and freedom and morefamilies to find healing.
Because if we use technologycorrectly, through the true lens
of the gospel, not just forinfluence, not just for making
money, although those thingsmight come but if we stay within
the sphere God has given us soif we allow AI to be infused
into art, or infused into givingwhat could God do with a great
(29:16):
technology like that, just likehe did with Instagram, every
single church in Americabasically has an Instagram
account. What could God do if weallow churches to use software
and use artificial intelligenceto further his message? Jeez,
let's go for it. And let's seewhat happens.
That was a whole Mic drop. WhenI say that you you literally
(29:39):
just changed my mind completelyin that whole spiel right there.
I'm like, All right, I'm gonnause AI for everything now. Like,
that's how far you just changedmy mind. That that is a really
powerful revelation. They'reabout Yeah, like, we can't copy
the human brain because that'swhat God created. So thank you
(30:01):
for that unique perspectivethere, Wendell. So you know, we
have people listening who loveinnovation, and they want to be
on the forefront of it and bringthat to their faith communities.
So I guess I'd love to know ifyou have a word in which you'd
like to close on, just toencourage that person listening
with the unique perspective thatyou have.
(30:24):
I would love to do that. Thankyou. I do want to circle back on
one thing really quickly? Sure.
I think the one area of AI thatI really want to be in tune to
is how do we get the bestcybersecurity while we're using
AI across you know, differentchannels. That's like my one
thought pinging a dear friend ofmine would have would kind of
push me towards and so let'slean on people, especially that
we know and trust that can helpus understand what's the best
(30:45):
levels of personal security andcybersecurity as we're using it.
So that's the one thing butstill all that to say, let's use
it, let's leverage it for thegospel. Great. So if you don't
mind reiterating your question,so I make sure I answer it
correctly.
Yeah. So basically, to theperson that's listening and
wants to infuse innovation intotheir faith communities, you
have a really uniqueperspective. And just like any
(31:07):
closing, encouraging words thatyou would want to say
specifically to that person.
Think God needs dreamers. He, weneed more people that are
willing to do anything andeverything because they've been
so deeply moved by this, thisJewish rabbi Carpenter, Jesus
(31:30):
actually had a real job beforehe anointed before he was the
anointed Messiah before thepeople. So what's in your hands
today? If you want to be aninnovator? What skill Do you
have? What passion Have youbuilt up within your heart and
your soul? Who do you haveaccess to that could give you
some more baseline knowledge?
And then just just do something,just do something, get up off
(31:52):
your butt, or maybe get backdown in your chair? Do the
design work, do that build builda website? What is it that you
have in your mind and in yourheart, because man, I don't know
if you know, the cool ofMarianne Williamson, Our deepest
fear. I was working at a greatcompany. But I felt like God had
some different I didn't know howto acknowledge it got a really
cool opportunity to work with afriend in LA. And this quote
(32:13):
came to me, it really changed mylife, and I might butcher it.
But it's great. Our deepest fearis not that we are inadequate,
it's that we are powerful beyondmeasure, we think who am I to be
brilliant, gorgeous, talented,fabulous, actually, who are you
not to be, you are a child ofGod, you are shrinking so that
others don't feel small, doesn'tdo anything for them. It is our
(32:35):
light, not our darkness.
So good. I love that, quote,possibly
be who they are. I just totallybutchered the end of it. But all
that is good. Find out whatyou're passionate about and do
everything you can to hand it toGod, sit quietly, get a
notebook, get a journal, talk tosomebody about it, read the
(32:56):
Psalms, and look for Jesus init, and go and do something with
the passion and the drive. Andthe talents that you have. I am
a huge proponent of Jesus'sparable, teaching of the
parable, the parable of thetalents, God has given you
something that is innately onlyyours to go do and come out. And
just like if just like Abrams,dad who didn't take the mantle
(33:17):
and go off into the wilderness,somebody else will do it. But it
is yours to take it is a mantle.
It's a baton, that God wouldgive you as a creative as an
entrepreneur, as a technologist,as a marketer, as a thinker, as
a family person, whatever he'sput in your hand, do that well,
and dream bigger, because God iscapable of doing infinitely more
than you can ask, think orimagine. He's in Ephesians, 320.
God, He has great plans for yourfuture, if you leverage it, he
(33:40):
is going to own it, he's goingto take you further than you
could imagine. It's not going tobe easy, but it'll be worth it.
Because it's calling based, notjust desire based, because God
works for you desires to get youto your calling. So go and do
it. Get up and do the work thatGod has given you to do because
we need you, especially in a daylike today, we need more people
who are optimistic, who arewilling to dream and leverage
(34:01):
everything, to look at thegospel and share it within their
wheelhouse that God has giftedhim cool bars
of bars. No, I mean, I love thatquote, first and foremost,
because it's in Coach Carter,and I love that movie. But But
also, I just love what you'resaying, Man and the underlying
(34:25):
theme that you have. Some peoplehave the motive around AI.
Really, an Elon has said thishimself. This technology, the
technologies that they'rebuilding, to elevate human
consciousness. Right. And to me,that's just human beings,
seeking what they truly need.
Not to elevate humanconsciousness but to encounter
(34:49):
human consciousness. Rightbecause human consciousness met
with us took on flesh and bone,like you said, had a job was
tempted in every way like wewere tempted, cried like we
cried, blood like we bled. Andso it's like we're trying to
elevate ourselves to then findthis thing that we feel like is
(35:11):
inaccessible to us. When at anypoint in time through art,
through technology, throughinnovation, through
storytelling, we can help peoplenot try to elevate to that level
but encounter the went into God,I love it. Whoa, oh my gosh, I
know we're over time. But thesmarter we get as human beings,
the closer we get to God, it isall pointing to the maker of
(35:33):
everything. If you look at worldreligion, if you look at
technology, if you look at theway the world advances, we keep
on hungering for something thatwe know we can't get ourselves.
And if you infuse the story ofJesus into the narrative of
everyday human life existence,especially, and modern day
United States of America, itpoints you to the maker of
(35:54):
everything, which we believe tobe Jesus.
Brilliant, love it.
He's good. He's kind of hecares. He forgives, He loves,
we're blessed. We're breathing,we got eyes and ears, we got
hands on freaking coffee. Let'sgo.
I think that you have been givena gift. And I thank you for
(36:17):
sharing that gift with us todayand so many other church leaders
out here because we need you andwe need the work that you're
doing. And thank you for alwayspointing us back to what and who
is most important.
I'm honored by your kind words.
Thank you so much for having me.
Love you both.
Thanks so much for listening tothe give it up podcast if you
want to receive even moreinsights on church innovation,
(36:39):
culture, and giving. Now you cansign up for free to be an
overflow insider, where you'llreceive exclusive content
discounts direct access to VanceRoush to get your questions
answered. And also invite onlyaccess to our monthly
fundraising leadership forums,head to overflow.co backslash
insider, or just click the linkin our bio to sign up for free
(37:02):
today. In order to get thispodcast in the ears of even more
church leaders. Could you pleasesubscribe and leave a review for
the show. This tells the podcastplayers what people are enjoying
and want to hear more of and weare adamant about providing
maximum value to even morechurch leaders. Thanks so much.
We'll see you next time.
We believe if we're going to proliferate the story
(00:02):
of the creator of the cosmos,the most beautiful story ever
told is the gospel. We have todo it with world class art. If
AI gets to the level of designprowess that can actually
replace a designer. First ofall, we're not that close yet.
If we do get there that actuallyfrees us to do more great
creative work that actuallyopens up more jobs for us in the
(00:22):
future. A pastorturn tech leader and a
millennial churchgoer, exploringthe intersection of technology,
culture and faith, equipping youwith innovative strategies to
support you as you live out yourcalling leader churches with
confidence to step into thefuture together. This is the
give it up podcast. Hey,everyone, and welcome back to
the give it up podcast. And thisis going to be quite a
(00:45):
surprising conversation perhapsfor a lot of people today,
because we have brought ondesigner Wendell McKinney to the
podcast doo doo doo doo.
See where you are on soundeffects here, I think. Correct.
Keep on going. We just randomclaps throughout it. Yes. But
(01:06):
the backstory on thisconversation is Wendell and I
were chatting at a conferencerecently. And being a designer
and a creative. I wanted to hearhis thoughts, and which I
assumed were going to benegative about AI Artificial
Intelligence, because a lot ofpeople are talking about how
they're afraid that AI is goingto take their jobs. And so when
(01:30):
I brought this up to Wendell, hesaid, Oh, my gosh, I love AI.
And I said, stop right there. Wewill continue this conversation
on Mike for the podcast, becausethis is going to be really
interesting. That'swhat we do. Like, we don't have
conversations in real life. It'sjust like, stop. We're not
talking anymore. Until we'rerecording. That's like exactly
lineal right there. Iknow. Exactly. Keep that same
(01:52):
energy. So yeah, why No, I wantto, I want to open this
conversation up and and startwith, tell us about who you are,
what you do. And then we'll kindof jump into it from there.
Well, first, just thank you somuch for having me. And if
you'll humor me, we at DPS,which is the studio that I am
(02:13):
the CEO and founder of privilegeto say that we always start
every conversation withthankfulness fans know it was
coming. So here we are excitedto talk about wherever our
conversation meanders. Buttoday, I'm super thankful. I am
going on a daddy date with mysix year old who graduates
kindergarten in three days,which is crazy. So please throw
(02:34):
in your thankfulness. And thenthen I'll introduce oh, let's
let's keep the kid thing goingreally quick. I'm really
grateful. I have this rhythm andpattern now. With my second
daughter, Emerson, where we do adaddy daughter dance. Like every
morning, I just pick her up, Isuper up and make my own melody,
and she loves it. Like shedoesn't let me leave the house
(02:55):
without it. So I'm supergrateful for that.
Beautiful. I love that. And sothen I'm going to spin this on
its head and say, I'm thankful Idon't have kids. Yeah.
Is this an announcement? Are we?
Absolutely not? Yeah.
But in a few short months.
(03:15):
I'm dead. Yes. No, I love that.
Thank you. I know for startingwith that. Of course. Thank you.
So you're are in this space,where you are a designer and you
love making churches art morebeautiful. I want to hear let's
let's unpack your thoughtsaround what the church should be
doing when it comes to elevatingart. Man,
(03:39):
that is such a deep question. Icould go in so many ways. It's
so funny. I don't know how youboth feel about this. But
lately, when people ask mequestions, I'm tempted to use
the phrase, I don't considermyself the expert. But then I
have to catch myself now. It'slike, Wait, people are using our
resource and our platform,because we are the experts. So I
will say I am learning a lotabout the what I believe the
(04:02):
church needs. And although I dothink that we have a niche, and
we have a solution to what hasbeen a problem, especially over
the last, you know, 20 or soyours in the western Evangelical
Church stream when it comes tocurating aren't really well. So
I'll kind of speak to that.
First I'll say as a pastor'skid, and being in ministry for
seven years, I kind of knewfirsthand, a lot of the
(04:22):
difficulty that the modernAmerican church specifically
although we do serve a church inAustralia, we're looking at the
market in Brazil, because wehave some resilience on team.
Just I know really kind offirsthand the difficulty in
curating really high quality artconsistently over time. And what
most churches deal with rightnow is the geographical issue of
trying to hire someone on staff.
(04:46):
The cost associated with thator, like so many of us followers
of the way they're in thisspace, we're connected with
really talented creatives, butit's hard to keep someone kind
of gung ho in one singularcongregation. And so there's a
few You have us including my twoco founders, Josh via SMA via no
relation, which is fun. We justreally, it's great. And
(05:07):
actually, they both have adaughter and both his wife and
her are pregnant. So it's reallyfun, a lot of confusion there,
it's great. All that to say iswe pretty quickly assess, okay,
there's a there's a large gap inthis space, both in the
technological aspect of how artis curated through project
management software, but thenadditionally, just the art
itself. So the synopsis ispretty simple. We believe if we
(05:29):
are going to proliferate thestory of the creator of the
cosmos, the most beautiful storyever told is the gospel, we have
to do with world class art. Andit can't it can't be copying
what culture is doing. We needto innovate if Leonardo da Vinci
can almost lose his eyesight,because he's painting the
Sistine Chapel and paint isfalling into his eyes, and I was
broke his back in his neck doingthis, then we have to do
(05:52):
everything we can just likechurch history in our history
has always been intertwined, tobe at the forefront of the way
that art is curated, whetherit's visual design, digital
design, print design,merchandise, and it can't be
just cheap and nuanced copies ofwhat culture is doing. We should
be innovating and telling themost beautiful story with
beautiful art that stunning andcaptivating and it also is
(06:14):
worthy of the name of Jesus.
That's powerful. That's so cool.
I've never heard you articulateit that way. Oh, my gosh, that's
so good.
Yeah, that that's amazing. Ijust want to give a quick
because you mentioned DPS team,can you quickly articulate for
people that may not have contextfor you what exactly you guys
do?
(06:34):
Yeah. So really simply, we are acreative agency that serves
churches, nonprofits, andthought leaders and about 95% of
our clients are churches. Andour goal is to partner with
churches on an individual basison a monthly subscription for
the foreseeable future tobasically be there off campus
creative talent. And we reallykind of market ourselves as a
(06:55):
one stop shop where we wouldlike to, you know, fine tune our
platform to best fit the churchindividually. So we have really,
really large communities withmulti site campuses across
different state lines. And wehave brand new church plants.
And so we offer visual design.
So anything graphic, whetherit's for print, or for in
person, or for social media, weoffer comprehensive, so really
(07:15):
anything you need there. Andthen creative direction and
collaboration video in motionthrough one seamless platform
and client hub that differentindividuals on staff can log
into and track all theirprojects. So project management
software, with dedicated clientcare to make sure that we're
with you for every step of theway.
Yeah, I'm a big fan of what youguys do. And you said two things
(07:37):
that I think are reallyinteresting of some pain points
you identified that y'all aresolving. One is the ability to
create consistently qualitypieces of art. Right? That's one
thing I heard. And then theother is the cost structure to
support that. Can you speak tobecause this podcast is all
about technology and innovation?
Can you speak to how you'redisrupting that? How you're
(07:59):
innovating on that to make itpossible for somebody to work
with DPS? Absolutely.
So kind of have to sink answersfor you. One would be for most
communities of faith, what we'reused to doing is the church
grows. And as the church grows,your need for art grows, right.
So something that you and I'vetalked about a lot we're saying
(08:21):
to a lot of pastors and churchleaders is church creative is
now the third, in our opinion,the third most important thing
in your community. So number oneis caring for the individuals
that would call themselves apart of your community or for
caring about the local communityyou're in. Number two would be
making sure that tithes andofferings are coming in, let's
go flow fam, we got to make surethat there's actual resource to
(08:41):
make all this go. And thennumber three would be how you're
curating yourself online and inperson through really beautiful
art. That said, what mostchurches are doing is staffing,
or working with a band ofvolunteers or working with a
freelancer. And the difficultythere is the cost, you can only
choose one of the three, if yougo any of those three routes,
you can go for cost efficiency,you can go for high quality art,
(09:04):
or you can go for a quickturnaround times. And there's no
way to get all three if you tryto go any of those routes. And
additionally, a lot of churchesas they grow, they just have to
keep on adding more staff orkeep on you know, leveraging
volunteers more or keep onfinding another talented
Freelancer but it's really hardto keep them in the door. So
what we can do is we give youbetter quality art quicker, at
(09:26):
less cost. But the really bigthing for us and this is a
secondary heartbeat of everyoneon our team is and it's I'm not
even mad, I'm not mad I get Iwas there. But pastors don't
really understand what it takesto lead creatives and creative
in the church space has been somismanaged. And so many
creatives get burnt out, andthey leave the church and we
(09:47):
have these 28 year olds thatwon't even show up to a church
anymore because they lie on thecreative team where the
volunteer team is really Hey,let us take care of the bulk or
at least the really high endwork for you. You could still
staff some people or volunteerbut in Instead of relying fully
on what you can do in house, letus take off a lot of that worry.
And my greatest joy is, and thisis the thing I say to pastors
(10:08):
and leaders now a lot when we'retalking to him about a potential
partnership is what we find.
After three or four months, thecreative director or creative
pastor or executive pastor,whoever oversees the area comes
back. And it's like, wow, I justmake a request. And I go about
my day, and I know, greatartists on the way. So I think
that answers your question,Vance. Yeah,
no, it does. The follow. Thefollow up question to that is,
it's so interesting that youframe one of those important
(10:31):
pillars as art versus even likecommunication or distribution.
Right, it seems that a lot ofthe focus and investment at
modern churches today is hey, weneed to be on all the social
media channels. It's all aboutdistribution. It's about kind of
getting the voice out. Andthat's kind of the so you talked
(10:51):
about carrying, that's thepastoral hat of the church, you
talked about resources,obviously, that's needed to be
able to do everything that thechurch does. And then the other
side of a pastor is a herald,right. So they're their
shepherd. They're also a herald.
And so it's interesting that youframe it as art versus
distribution, or communication.
(11:15):
Is that intentional? If so, why?
Absolutely.
It's intentional for us, we justbelieve the story of Jesus.
Amongst way, way betterdescriptions is a work of art.
He's built a tapestry. I mean,if you if you look at the canon
of Scripture, all literary work,and every story ever told, every
film ever made, has its basis inthe canon of Scripture, it is
(11:40):
brilliant, even if you don't,something we've said a lot is,
if Jesus, if the story of thisRabbi Carpenter, Yahweh, Jesus
that actually walked andbreathed on this planet 2000
some odd years ago, is real. Oh,my gosh, our life has changed,
right? But even if his storywere work of fiction, it is
still the greatest story of alltime that God put on flesh and
(12:01):
bone and decided to die, likecome up with a better story,
come up with when you can.
Right. So all that to say is, wetruly believe that when it comes
to telling the story of Jesusand the modern church, the
Western Church evangelical Well,we are trying to reach people
with the story. And the way thatthe stories and an art and
culture is curated today. Imean, we could go through the
(12:22):
gamut of whether it's Hollywoodor Hypebeast, or, or sports or
artistry, or any number ofindividuals, poets, artists,
collaborators now podcastersinfluencers, what we are all
doing is telling stories. Andwhat we have found and what most
churches who are early adoptersonto our platform now have found
is the modern church, you kindof need to think like an art
(12:44):
house, and you need to curateyour work really excellently so
that when people come acrossyour pages digitally, or on your
YouTube or your your podcast, oron Instagram, the Almighty
algorithm, right? You need tomake sure that what you are
curating is really intense,intensely feeling like it's you.
Meaning it's not just a placefor someone to understand where
(13:06):
they should show up, you know,on a Sunday or Wednesday, they
should feel like they're alreadya part of the community when
they touch your space digitally,is something you'll have talked
about a lot, Vance. Soit's, it's fascinating that
Bernard Arnault is now therichest person on the planet,
right? Yeah, that's obviouslynot the only metric of success
or impact. But it is interestingthat that spot is no longer a
(13:28):
technologist. Right? It's a it'sa person that owns fashion
brands. Right? It's a personthat owns a bunch of high end
art effectuated, through thesedifferent brands. And so I think
that that's really, reallyinteresting. I love that man. So
good.
(13:49):
Yeah, Wendell, I think whatyou're saying is extremely
compelling, because it gives anew language to what people
innately feel is true. You know,and it's so easy with so much
content, to go back to the rootsin the basics of, oh my gosh,
wait, all of these platforms,like especially Instagram, for
(14:09):
example. It was supposed to befor art. And we've gotten away
with just pushing for contentsake. And so I love that you go
back to the historicity of it,and also sharing that there is a
much bigger element behind allof this. And tying it back to to
gospel story, of course. And,you know, we talked on this
(14:31):
podcast about how we want to bethe bridge between tech and in
the face space. But what we hateis that the church is always
last to adopt things. So hereyou have this innovative lens of
what design should look like.
And now we're in this culturalmoment where artificial
intelligence is starting to comeinto frame and the church has no
(14:55):
idea what to do with it. itbecause they're like, this is
scary. This could take awaypeople's jobs. This isn't the
gospel. It's robots, you know.
So I would love to first justcrack this open. Why are you
sitting here today telling usthat you are very much for
(15:18):
artificial intelligence in thedesign space?
First, I would just say that Ithink, historically speaking,
the church has always been atthe forefront of technological
advancement, as well as at theforefront of art. And we could
go on story after story. And I'msure Vance could quote a lot
more than I could. That Thatsaid, I think I mean, to make it
(15:41):
really simple, would you stopusing a microphone on a Sunday?
Because microphones could berecorded and weird things could
happen. Or you could amplify thewrong voice, or you know, what
we've all been in those, thoseenvironments at church where
there was some weird feedback,you know, like, the awkward
sound, or the tech team wasn'tquite what it should be. And if
(16:01):
you fast forward to now,obviously, in 2023, where AI is
at the forefront of everyone'slips, especially those of us who
you know, think deeply about thetech space, or are you all in
Silicon Valley? And for me, Ithink really simply my first my
first question as we are, ifwe're going to talk about
proliferating the gospel, andwe're going to start axing out
potential technologies becauseof some fear, I honestly believe
(16:25):
that that is anti Christian, Idon't live through the lens of
fear, I live through the lens offaith, which is God's divine
persuasion. So I am persuadedthat God is good, therefore, I'm
an optimist about whattechnology comes down the line.
And I always look through thelens of what could what could we
do to use this technology sothat more human beings could
encounter what it means tofollow the way of this beautiful
(16:48):
God, man, Jesus? So that's myfirst thought. Secondarily, I
think that as a as a designer,and as a creative, I'm not going
to be afraid of what technologycan do, I'm going to think, How
can this help me do less of thework I don't want to do so I can
do more of the work I want todo. I don't know if either of
you are familiar with navallRaticate, the Indian American
(17:10):
angel investor, brilliant mind,he talks about this, and I'm
probably gonna butcher it. Buthe has a brilliant mind for
business. He believes and Iwould believe similarly, that
when it comes to technologicaladvancement, potentially taking
away jobs from people, thatmight be true. So let's just
say, if AI gets to the level ofdesign prowess that could
(17:31):
actually replace a designer onstaff, whether that's at a
church or at a studio, or at anyplace that hires a visual
designer, or motion editorvideographer. First of all,
we're not that close yet. Likeit's not as if you can go into
AI or the dalai to and actuallyget a design that's really
innately beautiful, that feelslike your brand that knows you
and represent you well, and thenhave it put in every deliverable
(17:53):
use case, and then start postingit or using it that we're not
there yet. Secondarily, if we doget there, that actually frees
us to do more great creativework. Now, we don't have to
worry about that. And we canactually manage this beautiful
algorithm or manage this greatAI to do lower level work. And
it actually opens up more jobsfor us in the future. So my
personal perspective is AI, itmight take away some of the base
(18:16):
level jobs, but it's actuallyopened up more job opportunity
for us to manage that. So we cando greater work and probably be
paid more for the work that wecan do. Because our expertise is
now at a higher level than itwas before because we have a
technology that does thebaseline work for us.
I love that AI I believe isgoing to be a key for human
flourishing in the future. I'mpretty big optimist around this
(18:39):
to your point. Wendell, why I'moptimistic about it is because
there's infinite amount ofproblems. Have you been to the
DMV? Have you gone to thehospital? You know, have have
you like, interacted with thesearchaic systems that still exist
in finance? Have you seen howwhen I transfer money, it still
(19:00):
takes three to five businessdays, like you don't I mean,
like there's infinite amount ofproblems. And what's interesting
is that to your point, if a AIis going to make eventually,
every every human being on theplanet, three to 5x, more
effective or given opportunityfor every human being on the
(19:20):
planet, to be three to 5x moreeffective, we can start tackling
some of these higher levelproblems faster. And that's why
I believe that it's going to bea key to human flourishing. I
think what's going to be key inaddition to that is how
especially a role of the church,here's a role for the church is
(19:42):
how to unleash and democratizethis, instead of operating at a
fear, like you said, beingdivinely persuaded in faith to
be the hub where the educationabout this the inspiration
around this is effectuatedthrough the church, because at
the end of the day, the Churchhas all the incentive to be that
(20:03):
the church is supposed to be theplace for community no matter
what stage of life or what socioeconomic status that you are,
right. And so if only for profitcenters are responsible for
distributing the know howdistributing the inspiration,
distributing the access toleverage this technology,
(20:23):
inequality is going to increase.
Right. But the church is a 501 Cthree entity, and supposed to be
specifically positioned incities in local communities,
creating deep relationships withpeople, if we can actually
embrace it. As a local church,we can be a massive distribution
center for access to this what Ibelieve key to human
(20:47):
flourishing. Yeah,so I love what you're saying
dance because then that bringsinto frame this concept of how
can creative teams use AIproperly, dare I say, ethically
in a way that it does producehuman or human flourishing? So
wonder, what kind of guardrailsare you looking at as you're
(21:09):
starting to implement AI intoyour work?
Well, that is a great question.
I think that for for what ouruse cases, at DPS, I'll tell you
kind of what our vision is forhow we're going to infuse AI,
and then I'll circle back tolove the guardrails, I think we
should put in the vision for usis, first and foremost, again,
(21:29):
we want to tell the mostbeautiful story of all time in
the most beautiful way. So weonly hire a world class artists,
we have respect for that, youknow, that person who's willing
to grind and work hard has aheart for God and His use
Photoshop before Butrespectfully, that's not who we
work with. So that being said,we want to use AI to allow us to
do less of an not busy work, butfor lack of a better term, the
(21:53):
busy work of design. So what alot of designers have to do.
Now, let's just say you'rehiring a designer, you know, at
an ad hoc price of $100 an hour,right, you hire him $100 an hour
to do this project for you. Andthere's five deliverables for
them to do those fivedeliverables, it might not take
that much time. But they'rethinking creatively, they're
going out looking atinspiration, they're gathering
(22:14):
mood boards, they're goingonline, to looking at some old
work they might have done andthen at the end of that process,
they're going to put it all intothe separate deliverables and
use cases, they're going to putit through, you know, however
they organize within Photoshopor InDesign or Illustrator, and
they're going to upload all thatto Dropbox and they're going to
send you the dropbox link, thevery first thing that we would
like to do with AI is remove allthat busy work at the end. So
(22:36):
all the artists actually has todo is the design work, the
creative work. And if AI couldjust take off that bottom rung,
it's such a time saver, and somuch efficiency where a lot of
artists aren't even naturallygifted at you know, crossing
their T's and dotting all theireyes at the end, like making
sure everything is grammaticallyperfect, making sure that
everything is organizedperfectly making sure you link
(22:58):
to Dropbox, all that. And ifthat could just if we could just
take that off first. Wow, that'sa huge win. Secondarily, the
larger vision is, eventually wecurate the really high end work
like more you think like brandguidelines, high end assets,
logo work. And then we allow AIas it continues to flourish, to
bust out hundreds ofdeliverables in real time to a
(23:19):
client that can instantly bereset until you find what you
want, just like you would withchat GBT finding the right copy
you need, you just keepresetting it based off of a
brand identity that you'vealready agreed with. So we give
our designers the ability tostep up and think more like a
creative director. And then wegive this whatever tool is
developed, whether it's the Dalitwo as it continues or whatever
(23:41):
else might come from AI to dothe busy work. And to assess
really quick deliverables, wewant to create a design vending
machine, where if we've alreadycurated a brand for you, you can
get hundreds of deliverables forevery single use case you need
in seconds, rather than havingto go back and forth with an
artist or go back and forth witha comms director. So when you
talk about guardrails, this issomething that we're gonna have
(24:02):
to continue to invest in, andwe're gonna have to bring on
more technologists to reallylean on, I wouldn't consider
myself the most, the foremostexpert as it pertains to the
guardrails here. My opinion andI don't know if this is the best
is to move fast and breakthings. All that to say is in
the current space, I thinkmeasuring what the world is
(24:23):
doing culturally like the reallybig tech companies, and then
assessing that with otherthinkers like Vance like
yourself like others and say,Hey, what do you think are the
warranted guardrails that weshould put up and then kind of
working in a think tank in realtime dependent upon the use case
that we're rolling out?
Yeah, I love that. I mean, youknow, the fear around AI on the
(24:49):
extreme state, a singularity,right? This idea that all of a
sudden, the AI is going to, youknow, quote, unquote, become
smarter than us and thisTerminator It narrative
essentially, I think that we'renot in that phase yet. I would
encourage people to be more inthe mode of what Wendell is
saying here and move fast,learn, iterate, leverage this
(25:13):
technology. If you think aboutthis, right? How come 616 year
old kid can learn how to drive acar in a week, but we still
don't nail self driving cars.
There's still like a wholeelement of observability in this
life that AI has not been ableto intake the data for,
(25:35):
essentially. And so I thinkwe're still quite a bit away of
that fear around singularity. Ialso think about this
theologically. Some of the fearis based on putting a cap on
creativity. We're basicallysaying that, Oh, if you know AI
is going to do these jobs, thenit's going to it's a zero sum
(25:57):
game. But theologically, if webelieve that we serve the
Creator, and he has unlimitedresources, right, and we're just
barely tapping into all that Hehas for us. Then you can
probably be more divinelypersuaded in faith, to believe
that, hey, this is this isanother exciting the same way.
You know, we democratized copy.
(26:22):
And printing through theGutenberg Press, right through
the printing press is a similarway where we're going to
democratize art. And this is aprobably not a perfect analogy,
but similar to even the iPhoneand Instagram, right? Is that
didn't cap creativity thatactually unlocked and
democratized creativity forpeople that couldn't afford a
(26:45):
Canon couldn't afford a Nikoncouldn't afford some of these
tools that were necessary to geta good shot or to edit a good
photo. Right. And that allowedthe people that did do that to
elevate their game even further.
Right, bro, oh, my gosh, I lovethe Instagram analogy. It is so
real. Remember, I don't know ifyou recall. But when Instagram
(27:08):
came out, if you were an earlyadopter, you kind of got mocked
by your friends. I think intoddlers original tagline was a
fun and quirky way to sharephotos with your friends.
Whatever judgments people have,it is created so many people who
built incomes and fed theirbabies for sure. And bless
communities, the money that'sbeen raised, of course, we could
talk about the evils and outwhatever. But if you just take
(27:31):
it at face value, how much gooda technology can be used for?
And if you if you transfer thatover to where AI is. And to your
earlier point as well, man, Itotally agree. We're so far off
from this potential singularity,even the foremost experts if you
listen to any of them, right? Ifyou would, we could we could go
forever naming people muchsmarter, that are really at the
(27:52):
top of their game here. Butyou're basically going to have
to copy the human brain in orderto achieve that level of
singularity. And I think asChristians, we can rest pretty
easy. Do I believe the maker ofthe heavens in the earth, the
God who made the hippo the Godwho made the gray whale, the God
who made a palm tree sprout upout of nowhere, the God who made
(28:13):
this Bumblebee flying and landedon that flower that gives us
oxygen, he made the human brainso perfectly after his own
image, I highly doubt that ushumans are going to achieve that
really quickly, right after thisnew technology got advanced. So
I'm just like, Dude, I thinkwe're okay. I think God's in
control. Last I checked, I thinkJesus is still seated at the
(28:33):
right hand of the Father. Andhe's resting. And he's not
worried God is not up there inheaven worried about AI. So as a
Christian, if we're worriedabout AI, I think we have to
check it through the lens oftheology first, because God is
in control, and he is sovereign.
And every time a technologytechnological advancement has
happened, and the church hasleveraged it correctly, it has
furthered the gospel allowedmore people, more widows and
(28:55):
orphans and people who arehurting to receive financial
help and freedom and morefamilies to find healing.
Because if we use technologycorrectly, through the true lens
of the gospel, not just forinfluence, not just for making
money, although those thingsmight come but if we stay within
the sphere God has given us soif we allow AI to be infused
into art, or infused into givingwhat could God do with a great
(29:16):
technology like that, just likehe did with Instagram, every
single church in Americabasically has an Instagram
account. What could God do if weallow churches to use software
and use artificial intelligenceto further his message? Jeez,
let's go for it. And let's seewhat happens.
That was a whole Mic drop. WhenI say that you you literally
(29:39):
just changed my mind completelyin that whole spiel right there.
I'm like, All right, I'm gonnause AI for everything now. Like,
that's how far you just changedmy mind. That that is a really
powerful revelation. They'reabout Yeah, like, we can't copy
the human brain because that'swhat God created. So thank you
(30:01):
for that unique perspectivethere, Wendell. So you know, we
have people listening who loveinnovation, and they want to be
on the forefront of it and bringthat to their faith communities.
So I guess I'd love to know ifyou have a word in which you'd
like to close on, just toencourage that person listening
with the unique perspective thatyou have.
(30:24):
I would love to do that. Thankyou. I do want to circle back on
one thing really quickly? Sure.
I think the one area of AI thatI really want to be in tune to
is how do we get the bestcybersecurity while we're using
AI across you know, differentchannels. That's like my one
thought pinging a dear friend ofmine would have would kind of
push me towards and so let'slean on people, especially that
we know and trust that can helpus understand what's the best
(30:45):
levels of personal security andcybersecurity as we're using it.
So that's the one thing butstill all that to say, let's use
it, let's leverage it for thegospel. Great. So if you don't
mind reiterating your question,so I make sure I answer it
correctly.
Yeah. So basically, to theperson that's listening and
wants to infuse innovation intotheir faith communities, you
have a really uniqueperspective. And just like any
(31:07):
closing, encouraging words thatyou would want to say
specifically to that person.
Think God needs dreamers. He, weneed more people that are
willing to do anything andeverything because they've been
so deeply moved by this, thisJewish rabbi Carpenter, Jesus
(31:30):
actually had a real job beforehe anointed before he was the
anointed Messiah before thepeople. So what's in your hands
today? If you want to be aninnovator? What skill Do you
have? What passion Have youbuilt up within your heart and
your soul? Who do you haveaccess to that could give you
some more baseline knowledge?
And then just just do something,just do something, get up off
(31:52):
your butt, or maybe get backdown in your chair? Do the
design work, do that build builda website? What is it that you
have in your mind and in yourheart, because man, I don't know
if you know, the cool ofMarianne Williamson, Our deepest
fear. I was working at a greatcompany. But I felt like God had
some different I didn't know howto acknowledge it got a really
cool opportunity to work with afriend in LA. And this quote
(32:13):
came to me, it really changed mylife, and I might butcher it.
But it's great. Our deepest fearis not that we are inadequate,
it's that we are powerful beyondmeasure, we think who am I to be
brilliant, gorgeous, talented,fabulous, actually, who are you
not to be, you are a child ofGod, you are shrinking so that
others don't feel small, doesn'tdo anything for them. It is our
(32:35):
light, not our darkness.
So good. I love that, quote,possibly
be who they are. I just totallybutchered the end of it. But all
that is good. Find out whatyou're passionate about and do
everything you can to hand it toGod, sit quietly, get a
notebook, get a journal, talk tosomebody about it, read the
(32:56):
Psalms, and look for Jesus init, and go and do something with
the passion and the drive. Andthe talents that you have. I am
a huge proponent of Jesus'sparable, teaching of the
parable, the parable of thetalents, God has given you
something that is innately onlyyours to go do and come out. And
just like if just like Abrams,dad who didn't take the mantle
(33:17):
and go off into the wilderness,somebody else will do it. But it
is yours to take it is a mantle.
It's a baton, that God wouldgive you as a creative as an
entrepreneur, as a technologist,as a marketer, as a thinker, as
a family person, whatever he'sput in your hand, do that well,
and dream bigger, because God iscapable of doing infinitely more
than you can ask, think orimagine. He's in Ephesians, 320.
God, He has great plans for yourfuture, if you leverage it, he
(33:40):
is going to own it, he's goingto take you further than you
could imagine. It's not going tobe easy, but it'll be worth it.
Because it's calling based, notjust desire based, because God
works for you desires to get youto your calling. So go and do
it. Get up and do the work thatGod has given you to do because
we need you, especially in a daylike today, we need more people
who are optimistic, who arewilling to dream and leverage
(34:01):
everything, to look at thegospel and share it within their
wheelhouse that God has giftedhim cool bars
of bars. No, I mean, I love thatquote, first and foremost,
because it's in Coach Carter,and I love that movie. But But
also, I just love what you'resaying, Man and the underlying
(34:25):
theme that you have. Some peoplehave the motive around AI.
Really, an Elon has said thishimself. This technology, the
technologies that they'rebuilding, to elevate human
consciousness. Right. And to me,that's just human beings,
seeking what they truly need.
Not to elevate humanconsciousness but to encounter
(34:49):
human consciousness. Rightbecause human consciousness met
with us took on flesh and bone,like you said, had a job was
tempted in every way like wewere tempted, cried like we
cried, blood like we bled. Andso it's like we're trying to
elevate ourselves to then findthis thing that we feel like is
(35:11):
inaccessible to us. When at anypoint in time through art,
through technology, throughinnovation, through
storytelling, we can help peoplenot try to elevate to that level
but encounter the went into God,I love it. Whoa, oh my gosh, I
know we're over time. But thesmarter we get as human beings,
the closer we get to God, it isall pointing to the maker of
(35:33):
everything. If you look at worldreligion, if you look at
technology, if you look at theway the world advances, we keep
on hungering for something thatwe know we can't get ourselves.
And if you infuse the story ofJesus into the narrative of
everyday human life existence,especially, and modern day
United States of America, itpoints you to the maker of
(35:54):
everything, which we believe tobe Jesus.
Brilliant, love it.
He's good. He's kind of hecares. He forgives, He loves,
we're blessed. We're breathing,we got eyes and ears, we got
hands on freaking coffee. Let'sgo.
I think that you have been givena gift. And I thank you for
(36:17):
sharing that gift with us todayand so many other church leaders
out here because we need you andwe need the work that you're
doing. And thank you for alwayspointing us back to what and who
is most important.
I'm honored by your kind words.
Thank you so much for having me.
Love you both.
Thanks so much for listening tothe give it up podcast if you
want to receive even moreinsights on church innovation,
(36:39):
culture, and giving. Now you cansign up for free to be an
overflow insider, where you'llreceive exclusive content
discounts direct access to VanceRoush to get your questions
answered. And also invite onlyaccess to our monthly
fundraising leadership forums,head to overflow.co backslash
insider, or just click the linkin our bio to sign up for free
(37:02):
today. In order to get thispodcast in the ears of even more
church leaders. Could you pleasesubscribe and leave a review for
the show. This tells the podcastplayers what people are enjoying
and want to hear more of and weare adamant about providing
maximum value to even morechurch leaders. Thanks so much.
We'll see you next time.
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