October 5, 2023 • 31 mins
In this episode, Vance and Zoe explore the intriguing concept of churches fostering financial prosperity among their congregation. Drawing from a prophetic insight received by Vive Church, they discuss the importance of faith and works, and challenge common misconceptions about wealth in religious contexts. The episode serves as a bridge between faith, technology, and the entrepreneurial spirit prevalent in places like Silicon Valley.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
We also have a theology that is counter to let go, let
(00:04):
God tell me more. We have atheology that actually says this
pray. Like everything depends onprayer. But work like everything
depends on work. Faith withoutworks is actually the Bible
says, dead. It's not a truefaith. A pastor
turn tech leader and amillennial churchgoer, exploring
(00:27):
the intersection of technology,culture and faith, equipping you
with innovative strategies tosupport you as you live out your
calling leader churches withconfidence to step into the
future together. This is thegive it up podcast events. Yes,
it's time to talk about a topicthat you are very passionate
about which one? Well, I have alot of a lot of things. This
(00:48):
one's gonna rub people the wrongway. Just hearing okay to
trigger alert. Trigger warning,creating millionaires in your
church.
Let's go money millionaires,baby.
That's right, making it rain.
prosperity gospel. Okay, no. Soby the way, I don't subscribe to
the prosperity gospel. Just tobe clear,
(01:08):
I feel like yeah, anyway, everyfive sentences in this, we're
gonna have to be like, PS, thisis a side note. But let's talk
about the prophetic word thatwas given to vive church around
this topic. And then we will diginto your very unique thoughts
around this.
Yeah. TL Dr. That is text speakfor too long to read. Didn't
(01:31):
Read? Yes. too long didn't read.
Your right. Thank you. TLDR.
Basically, early on in fivechurch, we started in the
Silicon Valley, we felt Hey,cool, there's probably going to
be some millionaires that comejoin our church and help fund
the mission and the expansion offive church. But somebody told
(01:52):
us early on that that's notgoing to happen. Okay, that's
depressing. But yeah, we won'tinherit millionaires, but we
will make millionaires. And sothat is kind of been a calling
on our house is how do we createenvironments? How do we pastor
people, to where the orbits andthe universes that we create,
(02:16):
that's what my pastor and Ialways talk about? Can the
people that touch our orbit, thevibe or bid be blessed? Right,
can they they find themselves ina place of God's favor, and a
place of God's blessing in theirfamily, in their business in
their endeavors? And we've seenthat we've seen that there are
(02:40):
people that are probablymillionaires now, I don't
exactly know, their net worthdon't have a tally. But I would
say they didn't start out asthat. Yeah, people that we've
been journeying with for adecade plus now that have seen
the favor of God, the hand ofGod on their career, have had
(03:00):
the ambition, put it on missionand see God's blessing, just his
hand on their career. And it'sbeen a beautiful thing to see.
Because the more they areblessed, the more that they are
a blessing to everybody aroundthem, including the local church
and the work that we're doing.
At Vives, specifically.
Yeah, I'm still stuck on thefact that you said had the
ambition. Put it on mission. Youlike that? Yeah. Make that?
(03:25):
Yeah, right there. But this is areally interesting perspective,
because you bring up money inthe church, and it was like, Oh,
my God, money is an idol. Thisis bad. You're gonna create
millionaires, then then they'regoing to run away from the
church.
Yeah, exactly. You know, theroot of the love for money is
evil. Oh, he'sgoing there. Yeah. So this is a
really foreign concept forpeople in the church understand?
(03:47):
Why do you think that you guyshave been able to tap into
creating a language for becauseyou're in the Silicon Valley,
which honestly doesn't meananything, unless you can speak
the same languages? Sure. Sure.
Sure. Right, break thefrequency. But you started a
church with seven people in theliving room. And none of them
(04:09):
were millionaires. Correct. Sohow did you learn partly because
three of them were kids, butyeah. And then it was Kim and I
were just starting our careers.
I was at Google, I was like,literally, entry level. Kim was
a teacher in East San Jose. Shewas in the hood. She didn't get
paid, and teachers don't getpaid. And then passes, Adam and
Cara were missionaries fromAustralia, moved to the Silicon
(04:32):
Valley and dumped all of theirlife savings into starting the
church. And so that was, youknow, the resources that we had.
Yeah. So how did you learn tospeak a language that the
Silicon Valley and people whoare into investing in tech and
stuff like that would comearound and get behind?
(04:52):
One of the greatest blessingsthat we had was to be
bootstrapped? Actually, that wasone of the greatest blessings
because There are church plantsnow that are raising literally
like millions of dollars whenthey start, it's crazy. And if
you lose an edge, right, youlose this mentality of grit and
hustle, when everything is justgiven, and I'm not opposed to
(05:16):
that strategy, if you gotta likethat great, but you will
negotiate on some stuff, ifyou're not intentional about
producing things like grit,persistence, creativity, hustle
that you need to get it off theground in a way that's
sustainable, right? Because inthe beginning, because we had
lack of resources, we had tolean on innovation. Right? I
(05:40):
remember, we literally PastorAdam, my pastor, he, he would
print a marketing card that wewould hand out. And we would get
discounts if we made a bulkorder. And so we literally put
all the dates of the teammeetings and the launch services
(06:00):
on the card. And we did a bulkorder. So every single Sunday,
we would cross out all the cardsif the date was done, say this
is this is innovation people.
We, we went to the local musicstore, and got their second
hand. You know, guitar, soundsystems, things like that. And
(06:22):
we'd have to return it Sundaynight so that they can loan it
back out on a Monday. This isinnovation people, this is
called resourcefulness. Yes. Andthose are the type of things
that actually in the SiliconValley was highly regarded.
Because the Silicon Valley isnot just known for apple today,
they're known for apple in thegarage. Right? There. They're
(06:42):
not just known for Facebooktoday. They're known for
Zuckerberg building and codingin his house. Yeah. And so
really, the startup journey issomething that we really leaned
into. And we leveraged. We alsohave a theology that is counter
to let go, let God tell me more.
(07:05):
We have a theology that actuallysays this pray, like everything
depends on prayer, but work,like everything depends on the
work, Faith without works, isactually the Bible says, dead.
It's not a true faith that thereneeds to be substance. Right?
that there needs to be substanceto this faith. So we believe
(07:32):
that there is a partnership, itis counter to the extremes of
how money is mainly seen in aministry context in modern day
because there is like you saidearlier this prosperity gospel
Yeah, that you have not. Becauseyou don't believe enough, ask
enough. have enough faith. Ihave a Bentley, because I
(07:56):
prayed. Because I asked becauseI have so much more faith in
you. I have a Ferrari, yourcadence change, and
I'm gonna name it,I claim it, I believe it I
manifested. This is this is thisis this is the extreme nature of
the prosperity gospel. I don'tnecessarily describe subscribe
to that. But I do subscribe toGod wanting us to be prosperous.
(08:20):
So that is actually differentfrom the other extreme of the
gospel that I hear, which is thepoverty gospel. Yeah, that if I
deny myself enough, if I carrymy cross, if I count the cost,
these are all biblical themes.
By the way, I'm not saying thisis not Bible but manifest
Exactly. But to to fullysubscribe to the poverty gospel
(08:45):
would mean that I am more holy,the more I go without. So so you
know what? Everything is yours,God, it's all yours. I am going
to pray and just believe food isgoing to be on my table. I'm
just gonna pray. And this is acool gospel when you're single.
(09:10):
I'm telling you right now, witha wife, the father of four kids,
Lennox Emerson Tatum. WesleyDior? Yes, that's a luxury name,
because it's luxury to have fourkids in the Bay Area. I'm
telling you right now, it is notcool to believe in the poverty
gospel when you have dependentson your tax return. You know,
I'm saying and so and so I don'tsubscribe to the prosperity
(09:32):
gospel. I don't subscribe to thepoverty gospel. I subscribe to
the partnership gospel, that itis God in me and through me that
wants to bring about hispurposes on this planet. Your
kingdom come here on Earth.
We're meant to bring kingdomhere on earth were we meant to
bring heaven here on earth? It'snot deferring until I get to
(09:54):
this ethereal destination calledthe heaven. No Heaven now, what
we're meant to bring heaven hereon earth. So what does that look
like? That looks like bringingabout the purpose of God on this
planet and the purpose of God onthis planet might mean, you need
to know how to create, attainand steward wealth. It might
(10:16):
mean that, here's the reality,okay? We hear sometimes maybe as
a byproduct of the povertygospel, that hey, you know what,
just rest. Just recline. Okay,God is already pleased with you.
Stop working so hard. Don'tsubscribe to hustle culture.
Don't subscribe to Tony Robbins.
(10:40):
Don't subscribe to all thesethings. Because God is just a
gracious God and just recline inHis grace. It sounds so good
because I have pictures of abeach right now. Right? I have
pictures of serenity right now.
I have pictures of a nice view,maybe a nice glass of wine, and
reclining and relaxing.
(11:02):
Newsflash, that does not bringsuccess. I think sometimes we
get our salvation doctrine mixedup with what actually provides
for your family. Practicallyright. Okay. Yes, relax, recline
in the grace of God when itcomes to your soul. When it
(11:24):
comes to your salvation. Do youneed to work for grace? No. Is
there anything that you can doto earn grace? No. Yes. When you
believe and receive Yes, you canhave a relationship with God
through Jesus Christ. But whenit comes to creating, attaining,
(11:45):
and and stewarding wealth thattakes work, wealth takes work.
This is biblical. I'm notpreaching heresy. Don't add me.
Don't come at me. You canunsubscribe to this podcast.
That's okay. Ecclesiastes 1010says this though, if the axe is
dull, and its edge unsharpenedmore strength is needed. But
(12:07):
skill will bring success. Itdoesn't say but fasting will
bring success. It doesn't saymore prayer will bring success.
It doesn't say believe harder,and it will bring success. No,
it says, But skill will bringsuccess. How about you
understand what your skill isand work at it? Well, and I also
(12:29):
don't subscribe to hustleculture too. Because if you are
requiring so much strength, andyou need to work 80 100 hours a
week, to get what you need toget done to make a living, your
axe is dull. So once you sharpenyour axe and realize it's not
actually even about the hours,it's about the commitment to
(12:50):
your craft that you can generateso that you can create a skill
so valuable, yeah, that it willlead to success. Wow. And that's
what entrepreneurship is.
Entrepreneurship, which Ibelieve is one of the greatest
vehicles to creating wealth tomaking millionaires is about
finding something on this planetthat you have desire about.
(13:13):
Right desire, if you break downthat word D in zire, right in
the the root of that is of D.
Sire is father of the father.
Wow. Right. And so when theBible says that, he'll give you
the desires of your heart, it'sactually because you've
(13:34):
submitted your life to him, andhe starts transforming your
desires for the purposes of God,oh, but he'll grant you those
who grant you those. And so youdon't have to minimize those
desires. You don't have tominimize the seed of skill that
he's given you actually, youneed to maximize it in your
world as you need to invite Himinto that place. So you can
(13:56):
breathe His Spirit on it, youcould breathe His favor on it.
So you can have his coveringover it so that you can co
develop it, you can co found it.
With him. He is the founder andthe perfecter of our faith he is
if God is a founder, yeah, he'sa founder of the universe. Now
we can be co founders, we can beco heirs, we are the Bible says,
(14:20):
subject to an inheritance. Sothis is not prosperity. This is
partnership. He wants you toprosper, but for a greater
purpose, that you can live alife that is beyond yourself.
I mean, that's a amazingdistinction and makes me really
rethink. Let's just say My lifeflashed before my eyes and how I
(14:41):
was on both sides of thatspectrum. But yeah, what a
freeing mentality, knowing thatit's not all on you, but God
wants you to do something sothat he can use what you've
done. Yes. And multiply it. Yes.
And the same thing is compoundinterest lessons. You know, it's
it works the same in thatkingdom, God is the compound
interest on your efforts. That'sright. You know, I'm Dave
(15:03):
Ramsey, we talked about DaveRamsey in an earlier episode,
which we will link up here foryou guys. We talked about how
the whole concept of what hecreated was to get the church
out of debt through FinancialPeace University, and it's based
on the the borrower is slave tothe lender, right? And that's
(15:26):
part one of this, right? Becausenobody should be in debt, right
in that way, because it's notserving you, or is it serving
the kingdom? And I want to know,why churches should actually
want to create millionaires notjust get people out of debt, but
get them to a place and and bethe resource for them to
(15:50):
understand that you can give outof abundance because of that.
Because of that obedience.
Yeah. I mean, the Bible isreally clear. Right? Be
fruitful, brief, fruitful andmultiply. Yeah. Multiplication.
Yeah, is the economy of Heavenis the economy of God. Right?
(16:10):
That actually in Genesis, itsays that we are to take
dominion, we are territorytakers, if we go to Genesis two,
five, this is a really, reallyinteresting passage in the
narrative of the creation story.
It says, and I'm just going tolook it up in the NLT version.
(16:30):
Here, when the Lord God made theearth and the heavens, neither
wild plants, nor grains weregrowing on the earth. For the
LORD God had not yet set therain to water the earth. There
were no people to cultivate thesoil. This is the theology of
(16:50):
partnership. Wow, that there wasno currency yet. There was no
plants, there was no grain wetalked about maybe this
episode's make a grain. He didnot send the rain, yet, because
there was nobody to cultivateit. There was nobody yet to
partner with him. Well, nowthere are people that he chose
(17:12):
to partner with. And when hepartners with us, He wants us to
be fruitful. He wants us tocreate plants, grains, produce,
he wants us to be producers, hewants to us to have production.
And what that looks like todayis maybe not agriculture. Maybe
it's not plants, and grain, butmaybe it's to become a creator.
(17:35):
Maybe it's to become anentrepreneur, maybe it's to
build businesses, or a YouTubechannel, or an Instagram page,
where you are creating somethingthat did not yet exist, that's
going to provide value topeople, our universal call is to
love God, and to love ourneighbor as ourselves one way we
can love our neighbors to serveour neighbor. One way to serve
(17:56):
our neighbor to solve a problem,though, best way to become a
millionaire is to solve aproblem for as many people as
you can. And then you go on thejourney when you solve that
problem to figure out theeconomics behind monetizing
that. Yeah. And monetization isnot an evil word. Okay. Melissa
monetization, like if you goback to the origin story of even
(18:20):
the tithe and Deuteronomy,right, the Bible instructs that
people would literally have totake the crops that they were
blessed with. And they would gointo the temple. And in the
temple, they would give up theirtithes, but the Lord of hosts
(18:43):
said, that you're going to putyour crops on the altar, you're
gonna put your produce, you'regonna put your fruit, anything
that you have produced, you'regonna put a time to that on the
altar. But Deuteronomy says, theLord of hosts says, I want you
to eat it at the altar with me.
God don't need your crops, Goddon't need your currency. But if
(19:05):
we submit it to him, we get toenjoy it with him. The modern
day version of that is the altarcall, that we submit our ties,
our offerings, our resources, tosee the local church to see this
new construct called the way tosee this new organization, this
Ecclesia the called out onescome together. And when we give
(19:27):
of our resources to see theecclesia expanded on this earth,
and every single Sunday, yourpastor gives a message in a
sermon. That is the gospel andthe gospel is irresistible to
people. People are hungry forthe gospel, to have an appetite
for the gospel when they respondto the altar from the gospel.
(19:48):
It's not maybe eating your cropsand your fruit that you made,
but you gave money in itproduced a miracle of salvation
and you get to actually join inand participate with God. I
enjoy a feast with him. That iseffectuated through people's
lives being transformed. Yeah.
And so that is why more and morechurches need to cultivate
(20:12):
places in spaces where peoplecan feel the permission to have
an ambition that is put onmission for the gospel. And
we're only gonna be able toresource that if we have
millionaires in our churchdoing,
you know, speaking of resourcingmillionaires in the church, I
just need to shout out ouroverflow insider episodes. That
(20:35):
was that time we askedbillionaires for money.
overflow.co/insights right. Ifyou aren't an insider, you
should sign up right now. It'sfree and you get into that
episode. Yeah, get access to theexclusive vaulted conversation.
It's a It's spicy, let's justsay that
I love insider I also love ourpartners at grow leader Yes, row
(20:57):
leader, I'm rocking the boat youOh, sure grow leader golf shirt.
And they have been phenomenal.
They serve over 16,000 churchesaround the world with resources
you can go to grow, growleader.com To find out more, but
they literally equip the localchurch with playbooks with free
resources that you can downloadthings like the Grow Next Steps
(21:21):
program, and other things thatwill bless your church. But we
are big partners with growleader, so we appreciate them
and love them so much.
Yeah. No, I love that. Andobviously, the whole concept of
this conversation is aroundmoney. And I know that there's a
lot of apprehension, because theultimate fear behind it is,
(21:43):
well, I don't want to beteaching people that money is
good, because where is the linebetween money being good? And
money being an idle? Right? Howhave you navigated that?
It's the same thing withtechnology. It's the same thing
with anything. It's technology,money, it's agnostic. It's a
tool. Right? Like we saidearlier, it's the love of money
(22:06):
that is the root of all evil,and people have shortcut that
statement to say money is evil.
No, money is a tool. Yeah, moneyis a servant to terrible master.
It's an incredible servant. Youtell money what to do. They
anecdote to money becoming evil.
Money becoming greed is anotherway to say it in your life. That
(22:27):
anecdote to that is generosity.
Yes. Giving people don't greed,greedy, people don't give. And
so if you can give your money,that means you are a master over
your money. Yeah, if you cangive your money, it means you
can use it as a tool and tell itwhere to go. If you cannot give
your money. If if your moneytalks to you. If your money has
(22:47):
a conversation with you say,hey, Zo, you need me for rent.
You need me for food, you needme for that Disneyland trip. So
you cannot give me away from melike that. Don't give me away to
your local church. Don't give meaway to that person that can use
it that could leverage it thatI'm speaking that God is
speaking to you about to begenerous towards, you know,
(23:11):
though you can't use me forhospitality. Because Because you
need those shoes, because I'mlike, coming right out.
Right out right now.
If your money is talking to you,yep. And you don't know how to
talk back to it. And you don'tknow how to put into submission.
(23:34):
And you don't know how to use itas a servant. It is a terrible
master. The way it talks to youis with the language of fear.
The way that money will talk toyou if you allow it to is with
the language of intimidation.
No, no, no, you are in control.
No, no, you have discipline. No,you have first principle truths
in your life that you can adhereto. And as long as you can be a
(23:56):
master over your money, asindicated by things like giving
Yeah. Then God will bless it.
Yeah. So basically what you'resaying is teach your church to
put that voice in a chokehold.
That's what w e is what'sneeded. Generosity.
Yes. Another good bar there. Youknow, one of the concepts and
(24:22):
phrases that I learned thathelped me put this into practice
was if I'm uncomfortable, that'sthe telltale sign good you're
doing something right. If it'suncomfortable when you're giving
Yeah, then that you're doingsomething right and I'm glad I
learned this when I was making$32,000 In my first job.
(24:42):
There you go. Go andtransparent. I am overflows. Now
your first job by the way,people.
This is actually me tellingVance that I would like a race.
Yeah, exactly. You are coming atme. Yeah. You can't
know but I couldn't affordreally much of anything. Yep.
And I had that exact thought of,I don't know how I can afford to
(25:06):
give 10% of this. And I thought,well, if I, if I actually feel
that way now, yeah, then everystep, yeah, step up, I'm always
going to feel like it's thisethereal thing that I, I never
can do. And I'm so glad that Ichallenged myself good. Because
(25:27):
the conviction that I feltaround it of like, well, if this
is the one area in the Bible,where God says, Test me in this,
I should probably test him. Iliterally did it to be like,
Alright, let's see what happens.
I was feeling a little feisty.
Okay. Oh, God, not we'redueling. Yeah, in that phase of
my life. And I was like,Alright, I'm gonna test you in
this. And my key takeaway was,holy cow. I'm so glad I had that
(25:52):
moment. Because I actuallyalways want to be uncomfortable.
Because that is the god gap. Iwant the opportunity to continue
stewarding whatever God bringsmy way, because I don't consider
it. Mine to begin with. Ilove that. Yeah. $32,000. So
that means that you tied thatyear $3,200 Correct. You know, I
don't do public math, but Icould do that. And, you know,
(26:14):
sometimes people get mixed up,you know, you know, what's the
tithe? You know, it's 10%people. Yeah. And so that that
is a battle in that 3200 goes upevery time you get a raise?
Sure. Every time you're blessedwith with increase, people get
mixed up, though, because theytake a legalistic view of the
tie, then the tithe is veryclear, biblically, but it wasn't
(26:36):
even. It was the minimumactually. So in Levitical
tradition, in Jewish tradition,back in the day, it was actually
more than 10%. By the way, ifyou want to get real like in the
weeds, you know, it was 10%,from your crops, in the modern
day version of currency. But youactually, biblically, the Jewish
people, they actually set asideanother 10% as kind of a hosting
(26:59):
budget. So you, you are requiredin Levitical law to be able to
set aside 10% to host peoplehospitality to throw a party for
your friends, and things of thatnature. And then another 10% was
meant to be given every threeyears, every third year,
specifically to the poor. Sotechnically, the tithe is
(27:24):
23.33%. But nobody wants to talkabout that. You said the key
though, it's actually NewTestament giving. I mean,
hopefully we can use the titheas just the baseline as just a
starting point. Yeah, but NewTestament giving is, all of it
is not even mine. Yeah. All ofit is God's Yeah, right. X two,
they gave everything. They gaveeverything to each other. They
(27:47):
made sure that nobody in thecommunity was with need. Right?
You want to talk about realgenerosity and New Testament
giving? Jesus would always raisethe bar. Yeah, he actually Jesus
reference a tithe once, and oneof the passages in the Bible,
but and he says you should dothe time. Right. But he always
raised the bar. Jesus I wasalways raised about that's what
(28:10):
generosity is. Yes. Isextravagant. It's abundant?
It's, it is, it is not justlooking for Okay, how much do I
have to give? No, no. What do Iget to give? Yeah, partnership
with God. Andit does get exciting, like, very
exciting. When you when youthink about, okay, well, I know
that percent is God's, and I'mtotally fine with it. And I
(28:33):
can't wait to see where it canbe allocated this month, where
God is literally just going togive me the vision to see and
meet a need. Yeah, because Iknow, this has already been put
towards doing whatever God wantsto do with this. I love that
too.
I love it. I love it. Yeah,there's this idea of living an
(28:53):
asymmetric life actually talkedabout this in staff not too long
ago for the overflow staff. Andthere's a few principles in
there. I heard it from this talkfrom the speaker at Stanford, he
encouraged people to do hardthings. That's how you can live
an asymmetric life to do yourthing, find the thing that
you're specifically skilled at.
And then to do it for a decadeor longer, right. And it's
(29:15):
interesting because the formulafor compound interest is
actually one plus r to the n.
And so in that formula, thequadratic nature of that is the
exponent, it's to the n, right?
Are as the coefficient is thething that you can, you know,
(29:36):
let's say I'm a CEO, I can workon my skill set, I can get an
executive coach, I can gettraining to be a better CEO. But
the thing that actually takes meexponential is the end. What's
the end? years Yeah, well,that's crazy. Test god. Yeah.
Don't just try for one year.
(30:00):
Just imagine continuing to beconsistent. Yeah, to be faithful
towards God. Yes, he is alwaysfaithful towards us and just
watch the exponential blessing.
And I'm not just talkingmonetary. I'm talking about the
exponential blessing in everyarea of your life because God is
covering it. God is redeemingit. You're partnering with God
in it. Totally.
(30:20):
It's a long term play. And it'sworth it and double down on your
messaging. That needs to be saidthat all the time. Come on. I
love it. Thanks so much forlistening to the give it up
podcast if you want to receiveeven more insights on church
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(30:43):
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(31:06):
players what people are enjoyingand want to hear more of and we
are adamant about providingmaximum value to even more
church leaders. Thanks so much.
We'll see you next time.
We also have a theology that is counter to let go, let
(00:04):
God tell me more. We have atheology that actually says this
pray. Like everything depends onprayer. But work like everything
depends on work. Faith withoutworks is actually the Bible
says, dead. It's not a truefaith. A pastor
turn tech leader and amillennial churchgoer, exploring
(00:27):
the intersection of technology,culture and faith, equipping you
with innovative strategies tosupport you as you live out your
calling leader churches withconfidence to step into the
future together. This is thegive it up podcast events. Yes,
it's time to talk about a topicthat you are very passionate
about which one? Well, I have alot of a lot of things. This
(00:48):
one's gonna rub people the wrongway. Just hearing okay to
trigger alert. Trigger warning,creating millionaires in your
church.
Let's go money millionaires,baby.
That's right, making it rain.
prosperity gospel. Okay, no. Soby the way, I don't subscribe to
the prosperity gospel. Just tobe clear,
(01:08):
I feel like yeah, anyway, everyfive sentences in this, we're
gonna have to be like, PS, thisis a side note. But let's talk
about the prophetic word thatwas given to vive church around
this topic. And then we will diginto your very unique thoughts
around this.
Yeah. TL Dr. That is text speakfor too long to read. Didn't
(01:31):
Read? Yes. too long didn't read.
Your right. Thank you. TLDR.
Basically, early on in fivechurch, we started in the
Silicon Valley, we felt Hey,cool, there's probably going to
be some millionaires that comejoin our church and help fund
the mission and the expansion offive church. But somebody told
(01:52):
us early on that that's notgoing to happen. Okay, that's
depressing. But yeah, we won'tinherit millionaires, but we
will make millionaires. And sothat is kind of been a calling
on our house is how do we createenvironments? How do we pastor
people, to where the orbits andthe universes that we create,
(02:16):
that's what my pastor and Ialways talk about? Can the
people that touch our orbit, thevibe or bid be blessed? Right,
can they they find themselves ina place of God's favor, and a
place of God's blessing in theirfamily, in their business in
their endeavors? And we've seenthat we've seen that there are
(02:40):
people that are probablymillionaires now, I don't
exactly know, their net worthdon't have a tally. But I would
say they didn't start out asthat. Yeah, people that we've
been journeying with for adecade plus now that have seen
the favor of God, the hand ofGod on their career, have had
(03:00):
the ambition, put it on missionand see God's blessing, just his
hand on their career. And it'sbeen a beautiful thing to see.
Because the more they areblessed, the more that they are
a blessing to everybody aroundthem, including the local church
and the work that we're doing.
At Vives, specifically.
Yeah, I'm still stuck on thefact that you said had the
ambition. Put it on mission. Youlike that? Yeah. Make that?
(03:25):
Yeah, right there. But this is areally interesting perspective,
because you bring up money inthe church, and it was like, Oh,
my God, money is an idol. Thisis bad. You're gonna create
millionaires, then then they'regoing to run away from the
church.
Yeah, exactly. You know, theroot of the love for money is
evil. Oh, he'sgoing there. Yeah. So this is a
really foreign concept forpeople in the church understand?
(03:47):
Why do you think that you guyshave been able to tap into
creating a language for becauseyou're in the Silicon Valley,
which honestly doesn't meananything, unless you can speak
the same languages? Sure. Sure.
Sure. Right, break thefrequency. But you started a
church with seven people in theliving room. And none of them
(04:09):
were millionaires. Correct. Sohow did you learn partly because
three of them were kids, butyeah. And then it was Kim and I
were just starting our careers.
I was at Google, I was like,literally, entry level. Kim was
a teacher in East San Jose. Shewas in the hood. She didn't get
paid, and teachers don't getpaid. And then passes, Adam and
Cara were missionaries fromAustralia, moved to the Silicon
(04:32):
Valley and dumped all of theirlife savings into starting the
church. And so that was, youknow, the resources that we had.
Yeah. So how did you learn tospeak a language that the
Silicon Valley and people whoare into investing in tech and
stuff like that would comearound and get behind?
(04:52):
One of the greatest blessingsthat we had was to be
bootstrapped? Actually, that wasone of the greatest blessings
because There are church plantsnow that are raising literally
like millions of dollars whenthey start, it's crazy. And if
you lose an edge, right, youlose this mentality of grit and
hustle, when everything is justgiven, and I'm not opposed to
(05:16):
that strategy, if you gotta likethat great, but you will
negotiate on some stuff, ifyou're not intentional about
producing things like grit,persistence, creativity, hustle
that you need to get it off theground in a way that's
sustainable, right? Because inthe beginning, because we had
lack of resources, we had tolean on innovation. Right? I
(05:40):
remember, we literally PastorAdam, my pastor, he, he would
print a marketing card that wewould hand out. And we would get
discounts if we made a bulkorder. And so we literally put
all the dates of the teammeetings and the launch services
(06:00):
on the card. And we did a bulkorder. So every single Sunday,
we would cross out all the cardsif the date was done, say this
is this is innovation people.
We, we went to the local musicstore, and got their second
hand. You know, guitar, soundsystems, things like that. And
(06:22):
we'd have to return it Sundaynight so that they can loan it
back out on a Monday. This isinnovation people, this is
called resourcefulness. Yes. Andthose are the type of things
that actually in the SiliconValley was highly regarded.
Because the Silicon Valley isnot just known for apple today,
they're known for apple in thegarage. Right? There. They're
(06:42):
not just known for Facebooktoday. They're known for
Zuckerberg building and codingin his house. Yeah. And so
really, the startup journey issomething that we really leaned
into. And we leveraged. We alsohave a theology that is counter
to let go, let God tell me more.
(07:05):
We have a theology that actuallysays this pray, like everything
depends on prayer, but work,like everything depends on the
work, Faith without works, isactually the Bible says, dead.
It's not a true faith that thereneeds to be substance. Right?
that there needs to be substanceto this faith. So we believe
(07:32):
that there is a partnership, itis counter to the extremes of
how money is mainly seen in aministry context in modern day
because there is like you saidearlier this prosperity gospel
Yeah, that you have not. Becauseyou don't believe enough, ask
enough. have enough faith. Ihave a Bentley, because I
(07:56):
prayed. Because I asked becauseI have so much more faith in
you. I have a Ferrari, yourcadence change, and
I'm gonna name it,I claim it, I believe it I
manifested. This is this is thisis this is the extreme nature of
the prosperity gospel. I don'tnecessarily describe subscribe
to that. But I do subscribe toGod wanting us to be prosperous.
(08:20):
So that is actually differentfrom the other extreme of the
gospel that I hear, which is thepoverty gospel. Yeah, that if I
deny myself enough, if I carrymy cross, if I count the cost,
these are all biblical themes.
By the way, I'm not saying thisis not Bible but manifest
Exactly. But to to fullysubscribe to the poverty gospel
(08:45):
would mean that I am more holy,the more I go without. So so you
know what? Everything is yours,God, it's all yours. I am going
to pray and just believe food isgoing to be on my table. I'm
just gonna pray. And this is acool gospel when you're single.
(09:10):
I'm telling you right now, witha wife, the father of four kids,
Lennox Emerson Tatum. WesleyDior? Yes, that's a luxury name,
because it's luxury to have fourkids in the Bay Area. I'm
telling you right now, it is notcool to believe in the poverty
gospel when you have dependentson your tax return. You know,
I'm saying and so and so I don'tsubscribe to the prosperity
(09:32):
gospel. I don't subscribe to thepoverty gospel. I subscribe to
the partnership gospel, that itis God in me and through me that
wants to bring about hispurposes on this planet. Your
kingdom come here on Earth.
We're meant to bring kingdomhere on earth were we meant to
bring heaven here on earth? It'snot deferring until I get to
(09:54):
this ethereal destination calledthe heaven. No Heaven now, what
we're meant to bring heaven hereon earth. So what does that look
like? That looks like bringingabout the purpose of God on this
planet and the purpose of God onthis planet might mean, you need
to know how to create, attainand steward wealth. It might
(10:16):
mean that, here's the reality,okay? We hear sometimes maybe as
a byproduct of the povertygospel, that hey, you know what,
just rest. Just recline. Okay,God is already pleased with you.
Stop working so hard. Don'tsubscribe to hustle culture.
Don't subscribe to Tony Robbins.
(10:40):
Don't subscribe to all thesethings. Because God is just a
gracious God and just recline inHis grace. It sounds so good
because I have pictures of abeach right now. Right? I have
pictures of serenity right now.
I have pictures of a nice view,maybe a nice glass of wine, and
reclining and relaxing.
(11:02):
Newsflash, that does not bringsuccess. I think sometimes we
get our salvation doctrine mixedup with what actually provides
for your family. Practicallyright. Okay. Yes, relax, recline
in the grace of God when itcomes to your soul. When it
(11:24):
comes to your salvation. Do youneed to work for grace? No. Is
there anything that you can doto earn grace? No. Yes. When you
believe and receive Yes, you canhave a relationship with God
through Jesus Christ. But whenit comes to creating, attaining,
(11:45):
and and stewarding wealth thattakes work, wealth takes work.
This is biblical. I'm notpreaching heresy. Don't add me.
Don't come at me. You canunsubscribe to this podcast.
That's okay. Ecclesiastes 1010says this though, if the axe is
dull, and its edge unsharpenedmore strength is needed. But
(12:07):
skill will bring success. Itdoesn't say but fasting will
bring success. It doesn't saymore prayer will bring success.
It doesn't say believe harder,and it will bring success. No,
it says, But skill will bringsuccess. How about you
understand what your skill isand work at it? Well, and I also
(12:29):
don't subscribe to hustleculture too. Because if you are
requiring so much strength, andyou need to work 80 100 hours a
week, to get what you need toget done to make a living, your
axe is dull. So once you sharpenyour axe and realize it's not
actually even about the hours,it's about the commitment to
(12:50):
your craft that you can generateso that you can create a skill
so valuable, yeah, that it willlead to success. Wow. And that's
what entrepreneurship is.
Entrepreneurship, which Ibelieve is one of the greatest
vehicles to creating wealth tomaking millionaires is about
finding something on this planetthat you have desire about.
(13:13):
Right desire, if you break downthat word D in zire, right in
the the root of that is of D.
Sire is father of the father.
Wow. Right. And so when theBible says that, he'll give you
the desires of your heart, it'sactually because you've
(13:34):
submitted your life to him, andhe starts transforming your
desires for the purposes of God,oh, but he'll grant you those
who grant you those. And so youdon't have to minimize those
desires. You don't have tominimize the seed of skill that
he's given you actually, youneed to maximize it in your
world as you need to invite Himinto that place. So you can
(13:56):
breathe His Spirit on it, youcould breathe His favor on it.
So you can have his coveringover it so that you can co
develop it, you can co found it.
With him. He is the founder andthe perfecter of our faith he is
if God is a founder, yeah, he'sa founder of the universe. Now
we can be co founders, we can beco heirs, we are the Bible says,
(14:20):
subject to an inheritance. Sothis is not prosperity. This is
partnership. He wants you toprosper, but for a greater
purpose, that you can live alife that is beyond yourself.
I mean, that's a amazingdistinction and makes me really
rethink. Let's just say My lifeflashed before my eyes and how I
(14:41):
was on both sides of thatspectrum. But yeah, what a
freeing mentality, knowing thatit's not all on you, but God
wants you to do something sothat he can use what you've
done. Yes. And multiply it. Yes.
And the same thing is compoundinterest lessons. You know, it's
it works the same in thatkingdom, God is the compound
interest on your efforts. That'sright. You know, I'm Dave
(15:03):
Ramsey, we talked about DaveRamsey in an earlier episode,
which we will link up here foryou guys. We talked about how
the whole concept of what hecreated was to get the church
out of debt through FinancialPeace University, and it's based
on the the borrower is slave tothe lender, right? And that's
(15:26):
part one of this, right? Becausenobody should be in debt, right
in that way, because it's notserving you, or is it serving
the kingdom? And I want to know,why churches should actually
want to create millionaires notjust get people out of debt, but
get them to a place and and bethe resource for them to
(15:50):
understand that you can give outof abundance because of that.
Because of that obedience.
Yeah. I mean, the Bible isreally clear. Right? Be
fruitful, brief, fruitful andmultiply. Yeah. Multiplication.
Yeah, is the economy of Heavenis the economy of God. Right?
(16:10):
That actually in Genesis, itsays that we are to take
dominion, we are territorytakers, if we go to Genesis two,
five, this is a really, reallyinteresting passage in the
narrative of the creation story.
It says, and I'm just going tolook it up in the NLT version.
(16:30):
Here, when the Lord God made theearth and the heavens, neither
wild plants, nor grains weregrowing on the earth. For the
LORD God had not yet set therain to water the earth. There
were no people to cultivate thesoil. This is the theology of
(16:50):
partnership. Wow, that there wasno currency yet. There was no
plants, there was no grain wetalked about maybe this
episode's make a grain. He didnot send the rain, yet, because
there was nobody to cultivateit. There was nobody yet to
partner with him. Well, nowthere are people that he chose
(17:12):
to partner with. And when hepartners with us, He wants us to
be fruitful. He wants us tocreate plants, grains, produce,
he wants us to be producers, hewants to us to have production.
And what that looks like todayis maybe not agriculture. Maybe
it's not plants, and grain, butmaybe it's to become a creator.
(17:35):
Maybe it's to become anentrepreneur, maybe it's to
build businesses, or a YouTubechannel, or an Instagram page,
where you are creating somethingthat did not yet exist, that's
going to provide value topeople, our universal call is to
love God, and to love ourneighbor as ourselves one way we
can love our neighbors to serveour neighbor. One way to serve
(17:56):
our neighbor to solve a problem,though, best way to become a
millionaire is to solve aproblem for as many people as
you can. And then you go on thejourney when you solve that
problem to figure out theeconomics behind monetizing
that. Yeah. And monetization isnot an evil word. Okay. Melissa
monetization, like if you goback to the origin story of even
(18:20):
the tithe and Deuteronomy,right, the Bible instructs that
people would literally have totake the crops that they were
blessed with. And they would gointo the temple. And in the
temple, they would give up theirtithes, but the Lord of hosts
(18:43):
said, that you're going to putyour crops on the altar, you're
gonna put your produce, you'regonna put your fruit, anything
that you have produced, you'regonna put a time to that on the
altar. But Deuteronomy says, theLord of hosts says, I want you
to eat it at the altar with me.
God don't need your crops, Goddon't need your currency. But if
(19:05):
we submit it to him, we get toenjoy it with him. The modern
day version of that is the altarcall, that we submit our ties,
our offerings, our resources, tosee the local church to see this
new construct called the way tosee this new organization, this
Ecclesia the called out onescome together. And when we give
(19:27):
of our resources to see theecclesia expanded on this earth,
and every single Sunday, yourpastor gives a message in a
sermon. That is the gospel andthe gospel is irresistible to
people. People are hungry forthe gospel, to have an appetite
for the gospel when they respondto the altar from the gospel.
(19:48):
It's not maybe eating your cropsand your fruit that you made,
but you gave money in itproduced a miracle of salvation
and you get to actually join inand participate with God. I
enjoy a feast with him. That iseffectuated through people's
lives being transformed. Yeah.
And so that is why more and morechurches need to cultivate
(20:12):
places in spaces where peoplecan feel the permission to have
an ambition that is put onmission for the gospel. And
we're only gonna be able toresource that if we have
millionaires in our churchdoing,
you know, speaking of resourcingmillionaires in the church, I
just need to shout out ouroverflow insider episodes. That
(20:35):
was that time we askedbillionaires for money.
overflow.co/insights right. Ifyou aren't an insider, you
should sign up right now. It'sfree and you get into that
episode. Yeah, get access to theexclusive vaulted conversation.
It's a It's spicy, let's justsay that
I love insider I also love ourpartners at grow leader Yes, row
(20:57):
leader, I'm rocking the boat youOh, sure grow leader golf shirt.
And they have been phenomenal.
They serve over 16,000 churchesaround the world with resources
you can go to grow, growleader.com To find out more, but
they literally equip the localchurch with playbooks with free
resources that you can downloadthings like the Grow Next Steps
(21:21):
program, and other things thatwill bless your church. But we
are big partners with growleader, so we appreciate them
and love them so much.
Yeah. No, I love that. Andobviously, the whole concept of
this conversation is aroundmoney. And I know that there's a
lot of apprehension, because theultimate fear behind it is,
(21:43):
well, I don't want to beteaching people that money is
good, because where is the linebetween money being good? And
money being an idle? Right? Howhave you navigated that?
It's the same thing withtechnology. It's the same thing
with anything. It's technology,money, it's agnostic. It's a
tool. Right? Like we saidearlier, it's the love of money
(22:06):
that is the root of all evil,and people have shortcut that
statement to say money is evil.
No, money is a tool. Yeah, moneyis a servant to terrible master.
It's an incredible servant. Youtell money what to do. They
anecdote to money becoming evil.
Money becoming greed is anotherway to say it in your life. That
(22:27):
anecdote to that is generosity.
Yes. Giving people don't greed,greedy, people don't give. And
so if you can give your money,that means you are a master over
your money. Yeah, if you cangive your money, it means you
can use it as a tool and tell itwhere to go. If you cannot give
your money. If if your moneytalks to you. If your money has
(22:47):
a conversation with you say,hey, Zo, you need me for rent.
You need me for food, you needme for that Disneyland trip. So
you cannot give me away from melike that. Don't give me away to
your local church. Don't give meaway to that person that can use
it that could leverage it thatI'm speaking that God is
speaking to you about to begenerous towards, you know,
(23:11):
though you can't use me forhospitality. Because Because you
need those shoes, because I'mlike, coming right out.
Right out right now.
If your money is talking to you,yep. And you don't know how to
talk back to it. And you don'tknow how to put into submission.
(23:34):
And you don't know how to use itas a servant. It is a terrible
master. The way it talks to youis with the language of fear.
The way that money will talk toyou if you allow it to is with
the language of intimidation.
No, no, no, you are in control.
No, no, you have discipline. No,you have first principle truths
in your life that you can adhereto. And as long as you can be a
(23:56):
master over your money, asindicated by things like giving
Yeah. Then God will bless it.
Yeah. So basically what you'resaying is teach your church to
put that voice in a chokehold.
That's what w e is what'sneeded. Generosity.
Yes. Another good bar there. Youknow, one of the concepts and
(24:22):
phrases that I learned thathelped me put this into practice
was if I'm uncomfortable, that'sthe telltale sign good you're
doing something right. If it'suncomfortable when you're giving
Yeah, then that you're doingsomething right and I'm glad I
learned this when I was making$32,000 In my first job.
(24:42):
There you go. Go andtransparent. I am overflows. Now
your first job by the way,people.
This is actually me tellingVance that I would like a race.
Yeah, exactly. You are coming atme. Yeah. You can't
know but I couldn't affordreally much of anything. Yep.
And I had that exact thought of,I don't know how I can afford to
(25:06):
give 10% of this. And I thought,well, if I, if I actually feel
that way now, yeah, then everystep, yeah, step up, I'm always
going to feel like it's thisethereal thing that I, I never
can do. And I'm so glad that Ichallenged myself good. Because
(25:27):
the conviction that I feltaround it of like, well, if this
is the one area in the Bible,where God says, Test me in this,
I should probably test him. Iliterally did it to be like,
Alright, let's see what happens.
I was feeling a little feisty.
Okay. Oh, God, not we'redueling. Yeah, in that phase of
my life. And I was like,Alright, I'm gonna test you in
this. And my key takeaway was,holy cow. I'm so glad I had that
(25:52):
moment. Because I actuallyalways want to be uncomfortable.
Because that is the god gap. Iwant the opportunity to continue
stewarding whatever God bringsmy way, because I don't consider
it. Mine to begin with. Ilove that. Yeah. $32,000. So
that means that you tied thatyear $3,200 Correct. You know, I
don't do public math, but Icould do that. And, you know,
(26:14):
sometimes people get mixed up,you know, you know, what's the
tithe? You know, it's 10%people. Yeah. And so that that
is a battle in that 3200 goes upevery time you get a raise?
Sure. Every time you're blessedwith with increase, people get
mixed up, though, because theytake a legalistic view of the
tie, then the tithe is veryclear, biblically, but it wasn't
(26:36):
even. It was the minimumactually. So in Levitical
tradition, in Jewish tradition,back in the day, it was actually
more than 10%. By the way, ifyou want to get real like in the
weeds, you know, it was 10%,from your crops, in the modern
day version of currency. But youactually, biblically, the Jewish
people, they actually set asideanother 10% as kind of a hosting
(26:59):
budget. So you, you are requiredin Levitical law to be able to
set aside 10% to host peoplehospitality to throw a party for
your friends, and things of thatnature. And then another 10% was
meant to be given every threeyears, every third year,
specifically to the poor. Sotechnically, the tithe is
(27:24):
23.33%. But nobody wants to talkabout that. You said the key
though, it's actually NewTestament giving. I mean,
hopefully we can use the titheas just the baseline as just a
starting point. Yeah, but NewTestament giving is, all of it
is not even mine. Yeah. All ofit is God's Yeah, right. X two,
they gave everything. They gaveeverything to each other. They
(27:47):
made sure that nobody in thecommunity was with need. Right?
You want to talk about realgenerosity and New Testament
giving? Jesus would always raisethe bar. Yeah, he actually Jesus
reference a tithe once, and oneof the passages in the Bible,
but and he says you should dothe time. Right. But he always
raised the bar. Jesus I wasalways raised about that's what
(28:10):
generosity is. Yes. Isextravagant. It's abundant?
It's, it is, it is not justlooking for Okay, how much do I
have to give? No, no. What do Iget to give? Yeah, partnership
with God. Andit does get exciting, like, very
exciting. When you when youthink about, okay, well, I know
that percent is God's, and I'mtotally fine with it. And I
(28:33):
can't wait to see where it canbe allocated this month, where
God is literally just going togive me the vision to see and
meet a need. Yeah, because Iknow, this has already been put
towards doing whatever God wantsto do with this. I love that
too.
I love it. I love it. Yeah,there's this idea of living an
(28:53):
asymmetric life actually talkedabout this in staff not too long
ago for the overflow staff. Andthere's a few principles in
there. I heard it from this talkfrom the speaker at Stanford, he
encouraged people to do hardthings. That's how you can live
an asymmetric life to do yourthing, find the thing that
you're specifically skilled at.
And then to do it for a decadeor longer, right. And it's
(29:15):
interesting because the formulafor compound interest is
actually one plus r to the n.
And so in that formula, thequadratic nature of that is the
exponent, it's to the n, right?
Are as the coefficient is thething that you can, you know,
(29:36):
let's say I'm a CEO, I can workon my skill set, I can get an
executive coach, I can gettraining to be a better CEO. But
the thing that actually takes meexponential is the end. What's
the end? years Yeah, well,that's crazy. Test god. Yeah.
Don't just try for one year.
(30:00):
Just imagine continuing to beconsistent. Yeah, to be faithful
towards God. Yes, he is alwaysfaithful towards us and just
watch the exponential blessing.
And I'm not just talkingmonetary. I'm talking about the
exponential blessing in everyarea of your life because God is
covering it. God is redeemingit. You're partnering with God
in it. Totally.
(30:20):
It's a long term play. And it'sworth it and double down on your
messaging. That needs to be saidthat all the time. Come on. I
love it. Thanks so much forlistening to the give it up
podcast if you want to receiveeven more insights on church
innovation, culture, and givingnow you can sign up for free to
be an overflow insider, whereyou'll receive exclusive content
(30:43):
discounts direct access to VanceRoush to get your questions
answered, and also invite onlyaccess to our monthly
fundraising leadership forums.
Head to overflow.co backslashinsider, are just click the link
in our bio to sign up for freetoday. In order to get this
podcast in the ears of even morechurch leaders. Could you please
subscribe and leave a review forthe show? This tells the podcast
(31:06):
players what people are enjoyingand want to hear more of and we
are adamant about providingmaximum value to even more
church leaders. Thanks so much.
We'll see you next time.
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Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.