November 2, 2023 • 19 mins
In this episode, we delve into the importance of transparency in church donations, especially for Millennials and Gen Z. We discuss the varying approaches churches take in communicating their financial metrics and goals, and Zoe offers a unique perspective on church tax forms. Additionally, we explore the auditing process, how to handle requests for financial statements, and innovative measures pastors are taking to ensure financial integrity.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
I update our investors on a very frequent basis, hey,
(00:04):
this is what our goals were inthe beginning of the year. And
this is how we're trackingtowards our goals. Those
investors that feel communicatedto, they feel valued. They're so
happy to jump in on the newfundraising round because they
feel like they know where theorganization is at the very
similar concept in church life.
It's an exchange of value andtrust. A
pastor turned tech leader and amillennial churchgoer, explored
(00:27):
the intersection of technology,culture and faith, equipping you
with innovative strategies tosupport you as you live out your
calling leader churches withconfidence to step into the
future together. This is thegive it up podcast. Okay, Vance.
So I want to talk aboutfinancial transparency in
churches. Yeah, it kind ofsafeguards churches should put
(00:48):
up because we've talked about inso many episodes, how
millennials and Gen Z deeplycares about what they're giving
their money to. And what's beingdone with the money.
We've seen this from successfulorganizations like Charity
Water, right? Yeah. Wherethey've actually tied people's
giving specifically to a well,they can view live and they can
(01:11):
view the launch of Yeah, right.
That's pretty cool. compassionsdone it for decades, right?
Where they tie you to a specificchild. Yeah, I have. Actually,
my, my wife and I, we recentlyadopted a new kid through
compassion to give towards, andit's a, it's a Filipino kid
actually kinda looks like myson. So that's kind of weird.
Everybody thinks it's like afamily photo. But it's
(01:33):
compassion.
I love that. Yeah. But on theother topic of compassion,
whenever you give them a gift,whenever you give your child a
gift, they send you a letterback from the kid, but they also
detail exactly where everysingle dollar went. That's cool.
And I think that's beautiful.
Because that's putting so muchtrust in Wow, I'm impacting
(01:54):
someone and something throughthat. And I have been in
churches before where they sharea goal. So not even a full flush
vision, they share a goal. Andthey don't say what the deadline
is, how much they're trying toraise, or updates along the way.
And that's frustrating to me, tobe honest,
(02:19):
I think if a member in thechurch is really requesting
detailed financials you'vealready lost actually go on.
Because the thing is that theimpact of the giving should be
so evident. Yeah, right. Itshould be so evident that, hey,
if you said that, you know,we're gonna give to start a new
campus. People should see thenew campus started. Yeah, if
(02:43):
we're gonna give towards thebuilding, they should see the
building, right. And thesethings might seem obvious, and
you can scale it up or downbased on your context or your
stage phase. Yeah, or yourchurches that, but it should be
evident. And so if it's notevident, are we incorporating
into our communications enough?
Are we communicating number one,to our church enough? Yeah. are
(03:04):
we incorporating in a way thatbreaks to the noise? Yeah. Is it
part of the Sunday worshipexperience, where we do local
updates, global updates onwhat's going on? Are we telling
stories, stories, move people,that's what Captivate for sure
captivates people. And so I dothink that when people start
getting into the line item phaseof wanting to know, I need a
(03:26):
detailed financial statement.
Now, I'm not saying that youshouldn't be ready to present
that. All I'm saying is, I thinkyou've already kind of lost if
that's the game that you'replaying. Yeah.
Well, now you have permission torespond in kind to me on this,
but like, am I wrong? Forwanting to if I know that a
church or an organization has acertain goal? Am I wrong for
(03:47):
wanting to know, updates of itof like, where are we in that
goal? Because quite honestly,it's my competitive nature. Like
I'm like, if I if there's astretch goal, I'm like, how much
more we got to go. I'm likepumped about it.
You're definitely not wrong. Iwould say that. That is common,
you know, if there is going tobe a so let's, let's use a
(04:09):
Silicon Valley lesson here. Sooverflow is a startup based in
the Silicon Valley. We're asoftware company. We have
investors. Yeah. What I do is Iupdate our investors on a very
frequent basis. Right? Sometimesthe cadence is monthly.
Sometimes the cadence isquarterly, but they can expect
to hear from me anywhere betweensix to 12 times a year. And I
(04:33):
specifically update them on Hey,this is what our goals were in
the beginning of the year. Andthis is how we're tracking
towards our goals. Guess what,anytime I am doing a fundraising
round, those investors that feelcommunicated to that feel
valued. They're so happy to jumpin on the new fundraising round
because they feel like they knowwhere the organization is at.
(04:55):
Yeah, it's a very similarconcept in church life, right is
if the only time they're hearingmeaning from you, regarding
finances is once a year when thechurch really needs money.
That's probably not the best wayto cultivate generosity. Yeah,
right? Yeah. Because really,it's an exchange of trust. It's
an exchange of value and trust,and they're gonna put a lot more
(05:15):
value or they're gonna mock alot more value, if they have a
higher level of trust. And trustis not built once a year. Trust
is built consistently across theyear.
Yeah. And, you know, they havewebsites out there for nonprofit
specifically, like charitynavigator.org, where people are
submitting input on howtrustworthy an organization is.
Sure, obviously, with churches,it's a different ballgame
(05:36):
altogether. So it's completelyyour responsibility to show that
you are breeding ground forattrition? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No,
this is a hot take. I have, andwe might disagree on it. And so
we can talk through it, butdisagree, sometimes still get
along. That's right. I will saythis, we disagree. But then we
refine our points of view,respectively, so we can come to
(05:58):
a point of agreement. I actuallydon't agree with this. The whole
let's agree to disagree. I thinkthat's actually the point of
division. I think that if youare in a disagreement about
something, and this is actuallya church thing, right? If you
are in disagreement aboutsomething, let's say it's, you
know, the team with a team leador a staff member with their
(06:19):
pastor, or something like thatyou should not rest to hey,
let's just agree to disagree.
You should actually pursue ahigher level of agreement. Yeah.
So it's not wrong to disagree.
But it's also not right. To stayin disagreement. Yeah. Right.
You want to pursue unity. Yeah.
Right. And so like, go ahead.
(06:40):
No, I was gonna say, I heard thephrase, it's not agree to
disagree. What you're ultimatelytrying for is agree to disagree
agreeably. Oh, as in, we've comeup with a common ground that
even So basically, what you justdid, yeah, like that. So
anyways, my hot take is around990s. Which, before I give it,
can you give people anunderstanding of what 990? Sir,
(07:02):
yeah. Soin the 501, C, three space,
charitable organizations arerequired to fill out and submit
to the IRS a 990. It's basicallyan accounting and tax record of
how funds have been used and howit's allocated. And things like
that. churches in America have aparticular you know, provision
(07:25):
where they don't have toactually submit a nine, nine. So
it's a bit of a wild wild westout there.
Do you know why that is? Why didthat provision happen to begin
with? That'sinteresting. So this country was
founded as a Christian nation,on Christian values. And, you
know, the local church has beena part of this nation's history
(07:47):
since the beginning. Maybe ithas to do with that. I actually
don't know the origin story ofwhy that is. But yeah, that's
what it is. Okay. Yeah.
So honestly, the context forthis is that my heart is so
broken for all of these churchesthat are just crumbling, when it
(08:09):
comes to a lack ofaccountability. Right. And so
actually,the number one reason for church
failure, right is actually notmoral failure. Yeah, it's a
failure of finances. Yeah.
And Seth Godin has thisbrilliant turn that he calls
putting yourself on the hook.
Oh, and I think the same methodcould dare I say, should be
applied in a church context isjust because you don't have to
(08:31):
submit a 990 Why not putyourself on the hook, go and put
transparency, be front footed,in your transparency, and how
much money is coming in? Howmuch money is going out? Where
it's going? And who it's goingto?
I'll take it one step further.
Get your financials audited,even though you don't have to?
(08:56):
What does that process looklike?
Yeah, so it actually is kind ofan investment, it will take like
15 to $20,000, to have fullyaudited financial books from an
outside accounting firm, wherethey will go through all of your
accounting practices and yourprocesses. And they basically
write a letter saying, Hey,we've audited this organization,
they handle their financesthrough GAAP standards, which
(09:21):
basically is the generallyacceptable accounting practices.
And so, ultimately, what anaudit is, is to bless the
financials saying, hey, what'srepresented here is what is
true. Okay. It's not, you know,false, or misinformation. Yeah.
And so that's what an audit is.
If you don't have the 15 to 20kto invest into it, even though I
(09:43):
think it's worth it becauseyou're being front footed.
You're being proactive. Yeah.
And that breeds trust. Then youcan do what's called a financial
review, which is much cheaper.
It's a magnet to choose maybe acouple $1,000 You could hire an
outside accounting firm so theydon't do the full gamut of what
an audit would entail. But thefinancial review process is
better than nothing. Right? Andyou did do the work of getting
(10:06):
an outside accounting firm, tolook under the hood of your
financials. There's also anorganization called ECFA, the
evangelical Christian FinancialAccounting Board, which is
probably one of the higheststandards that certain churches
in America to the 10s of 1000sof churches, at this point
(10:27):
adhere to, again, these are allproactive measures. If you
listen to this as a church, willyou get in trouble that you
don't do any of these things?
No. But maybe we should lookfrom a perspective of not okay,
what's the bare minimum? I cando, right? But hey, where can I
be proactive? Where it's goingto breed trust in my
(10:47):
organization? And actually, youknow, submitting yourself to
things like an audit willactually make you better. Right.
So yeah, most of the time, it'snot that most of the time,
literally, pastors CFOs ofchurches, there's there's
actually no ill intent. I mean,sometimes there is, but I would
say that's a minority, not themajority. Yeah. Most of the
time, there's no ill intent. Butthere might be ignorance. Yeah.
(11:09):
And that's not to throw shade orshame. You don't know what you
don't know. Right? And a lot oftimes when you're a church
plant, you're just starting outmaybe just a few years in, you
don't have MBAs on your stuff.
Yeah, yeah. I'm not saying that,you know, churches shouldn't
have those type of people. Weshould we should hire top
talent. Yeah. If you don't havethose type of people yet. You
don't know. You don't know. Sosubmit yourself to wise counsel
(11:31):
to outside counsel, and the areaof finances go above and beyond,
it'll make you better and willmake your organization more
trustworthy?
Yeah. 100%. I agree with that.
And I think the deeper principleis, you know, you've heard
messages before, were they like,if God put on the screen up in
front of us everything thatyou've ever done? What would you
(11:54):
think, you know, like, you'veheard examples like that before?
scare you into? Like, are youliving a biblical lifestyle?
Yeah, well,those weren't the altar calls a
really big thing, if you got hitby a bus tomorrow.
But I mean, the concept is thesame as if you're listening to
this. And you're like, why don'treally wanted everyone to know,
(12:14):
well, maybe that's the firsttelltale sign that you should
get on this, because that is howyou set yourself up for success
in your stewardship. Right. Andthat's what all this is about is
is stewardship. Is everyonegoing to read? The Financial?
What's that thing at the end ofthe year? The Annual Report,
right? The Financial Report?
Sure, maybe not. But the factthat you are willing to put it
(12:37):
out there and say, Hey, we knowthat this means a lot to a lot
of people, and we want to showyou where it is, then I think
that really would behoove theorganization. And that's another
way to build trust, here'sa pro tip, we will offer our
financial statements to anybodywho requests it, that is a
giver. And so there's people outthere that are just wanting to,
(12:59):
you know, be hateful. Right? Andif they're not a contributor, if
they're not a consistent giver,really, you know, they have no,
right. Yeah. So that's a littlepro tip that you don't have to
make your financials justavailable to anybody and
(13:20):
everybody. But those people thatare supporting your organization
that are consistent, faithfulgivers. You should make it
clear, yeah, hey, there's arequest process. We're happy to
provide that by going throughthis request process. In
addition to that, like I wassaying earlier, if you have it,
you know, it's funny, becauseyou were saying how not
(13:44):
everybody's gonna even read thefinancial statement. You know,
why? Because that everybodyknows how to read it. Yeah. And
again, that's such a shame, butnot everybody's an accountant.
Yeah. And that's why I'm sayingis like, that is a good thing to
have. But it's actually not themain main thing. The main main
thing is that your church goesabove and beyond to make it
evident that people'sinvestment, people's giving is
(14:06):
in good hands. Yeah. Because ofthis person's life changed
because of this campus plantedbecause we started this outreach
because we responded to Maui'sfire that literally is in
history, one of the worst usfires that America has ever
seen. Because we are active inour community, because we feed
(14:29):
the poor because we are engagedin civic engagement because you
know, so it should be soevident. Yes, it should be so
evident that you are meeting theneeds of the community that you
are seeing people saved anddiscipled that you have small
groups that are growing. Yeah,you know, what's healthy, gross,
and so if your finances arehealthy, if your people are
(14:52):
healthy, if your staff ishealthy, it'll grow and the
impact should be evident.
Yeah. And you know, we'reobviously talking about
safeguards. And I heard MarkPatterson and Rick Warren
talking about ledges. Yes. And Iwas said
to get Pastor Mark Batterson onthe pod. I was always on a zoom
(15:16):
with him the other day, and heis like the salt of the earth is
the best. Yeah, in Capitol Hill.
It's easy to see. Okay, make anote team marketing team, hey,
expensive marketing teammarketing
team for Mark. So they both do areverse type. Which means what
does that mean? They are givingaway 90% of the income and
(15:39):
living off the 10. It'sadmirable. And I was so inspired
when I heard that, that I waslike, I want to make that a
practice in my life andliterally, like ratchet up the
percentage points every year sothat if I get to live this long,
I'll be doing the same thing.
The way that my bank accountworks, it doesn't work with that
percentage yet. Yeah. Well, 1%is for attendance. I will say
(16:00):
yes. But that's admirable. Yeah.
But but it's just really thesame thing of putting yourself
in a place where you're alwaysuncomfortable, because there's a
God gap. I think that's, that'sreally what it all revolves
around. And because we'retalking about stewardship, I
actually want to share thisreally fun fact, with the
listeners, because we found thislast week at the time of
(16:22):
recording this. And we'retalking about processing fees,
and how we now offer the lowestcash processing fees in the
industry. Yep. Which your giverswould actually love to know that
they love knowing that stuff.
They want every dollarmaximized, insofar as
if you even give the option forpeople to pay the processing
(16:44):
fees with their game, we added afeature, we added the feature
overflow. That's so cool.
And this was mind blowing that48% of givers decided
to cover the fees. Yes, that'scrazy. That's crazy,
almost half without beingprovoked. Like it wasn't like a
from stage.
And that was just like, defaulton on the platform. Right? They
(17:05):
had to explicitly check toggle.
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So good.
And but I think that speaks to adeeper principles that we care
deeply. And if if we know thatthat's a potential opportunity
or option, we'll come alongsidethat church
that launched it not too longago, they saw almost 4000 in
(17:25):
savings.
And how long last month in mytime, so
I don't do public math. Butthat's over $40,000 House
annualized, if they keep goingon that trend, which is
phenomenal. And a lot of peopleare covering the fees on their
recurring gift. And so they'recovering the fee and perpetuity
beautiful when you provide thatoption. Yeah. And so the world
(17:50):
of generous gets larger andlarger people are wired to give
people if you just give them anopportunity, you make it easy
through the platform. It'seasiest to overflow, by the way,
shout out. Yep. People do it.
Yeah. It's really inspiring.
Yeah,it is inspiring. And honestly,
that's why I wanted to have thisconversation as a millennial
churchgoer, because we careabout this. We care about the
(18:10):
church, that's why we'reinvested. That's why we're
giving. That's why we give ourtime. That's, that's why we want
to be sowing into somethingthat's bigger than us. And I
think that when pastors andchurch leaders hear this, know
that the work that you're doingis impactful. Come on. And along
with that, your transparency isjust as impactful to love that.
(18:32):
Thanks so much for listening tothe give it up podcast if you
want to receive even moreinsights on church innovation,
culture, and giving. Now you cansign up for free to be an
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(18:54):
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(19:16):
maximum value to even morechurch leaders. Thanks so much.
We'll see you next time.
I update our investors on a very frequent basis, hey,
(00:04):
this is what our goals were inthe beginning of the year. And
this is how we're trackingtowards our goals. Those
investors that feel communicatedto, they feel valued. They're so
happy to jump in on the newfundraising round because they
feel like they know where theorganization is at the very
similar concept in church life.
It's an exchange of value andtrust. A
pastor turned tech leader and amillennial churchgoer, explored
(00:27):
the intersection of technology,culture and faith, equipping you
with innovative strategies tosupport you as you live out your
calling leader churches withconfidence to step into the
future together. This is thegive it up podcast. Okay, Vance.
So I want to talk aboutfinancial transparency in
churches. Yeah, it kind ofsafeguards churches should put
(00:48):
up because we've talked about inso many episodes, how
millennials and Gen Z deeplycares about what they're giving
their money to. And what's beingdone with the money.
We've seen this from successfulorganizations like Charity
Water, right? Yeah. Wherethey've actually tied people's
giving specifically to a well,they can view live and they can
(01:11):
view the launch of Yeah, right.
That's pretty cool. compassionsdone it for decades, right?
Where they tie you to a specificchild. Yeah, I have. Actually,
my, my wife and I, we recentlyadopted a new kid through
compassion to give towards, andit's a, it's a Filipino kid
actually kinda looks like myson. So that's kind of weird.
Everybody thinks it's like afamily photo. But it's
(01:33):
compassion.
I love that. Yeah. But on theother topic of compassion,
whenever you give them a gift,whenever you give your child a
gift, they send you a letterback from the kid, but they also
detail exactly where everysingle dollar went. That's cool.
And I think that's beautiful.
Because that's putting so muchtrust in Wow, I'm impacting
(01:54):
someone and something throughthat. And I have been in
churches before where they sharea goal. So not even a full flush
vision, they share a goal. Andthey don't say what the deadline
is, how much they're trying toraise, or updates along the way.
And that's frustrating to me, tobe honest,
(02:19):
I think if a member in thechurch is really requesting
detailed financials you'vealready lost actually go on.
Because the thing is that theimpact of the giving should be
so evident. Yeah, right. Itshould be so evident that, hey,
if you said that, you know,we're gonna give to start a new
campus. People should see thenew campus started. Yeah, if
(02:43):
we're gonna give towards thebuilding, they should see the
building, right. And thesethings might seem obvious, and
you can scale it up or downbased on your context or your
stage phase. Yeah, or yourchurches that, but it should be
evident. And so if it's notevident, are we incorporating
into our communications enough?
Are we communicating number one,to our church enough? Yeah. are
(03:04):
we incorporating in a way thatbreaks to the noise? Yeah. Is it
part of the Sunday worshipexperience, where we do local
updates, global updates onwhat's going on? Are we telling
stories, stories, move people,that's what Captivate for sure
captivates people. And so I dothink that when people start
getting into the line item phaseof wanting to know, I need a
(03:26):
detailed financial statement.
Now, I'm not saying that youshouldn't be ready to present
that. All I'm saying is, I thinkyou've already kind of lost if
that's the game that you'replaying. Yeah.
Well, now you have permission torespond in kind to me on this,
but like, am I wrong? Forwanting to if I know that a
church or an organization has acertain goal? Am I wrong for
(03:47):
wanting to know, updates of itof like, where are we in that
goal? Because quite honestly,it's my competitive nature. Like
I'm like, if I if there's astretch goal, I'm like, how much
more we got to go. I'm likepumped about it.
You're definitely not wrong. Iwould say that. That is common,
you know, if there is going tobe a so let's, let's use a
(04:09):
Silicon Valley lesson here. Sooverflow is a startup based in
the Silicon Valley. We're asoftware company. We have
investors. Yeah. What I do is Iupdate our investors on a very
frequent basis. Right? Sometimesthe cadence is monthly.
Sometimes the cadence isquarterly, but they can expect
to hear from me anywhere betweensix to 12 times a year. And I
(04:33):
specifically update them on Hey,this is what our goals were in
the beginning of the year. Andthis is how we're tracking
towards our goals. Guess what,anytime I am doing a fundraising
round, those investors that feelcommunicated to that feel
valued. They're so happy to jumpin on the new fundraising round
because they feel like they knowwhere the organization is at.
(04:55):
Yeah, it's a very similarconcept in church life, right is
if the only time they're hearingmeaning from you, regarding
finances is once a year when thechurch really needs money.
That's probably not the best wayto cultivate generosity. Yeah,
right? Yeah. Because really,it's an exchange of trust. It's
an exchange of value and trust,and they're gonna put a lot more
(05:15):
value or they're gonna mock alot more value, if they have a
higher level of trust. And trustis not built once a year. Trust
is built consistently across theyear.
Yeah. And, you know, they havewebsites out there for nonprofit
specifically, like charitynavigator.org, where people are
submitting input on howtrustworthy an organization is.
Sure, obviously, with churches,it's a different ballgame
(05:36):
altogether. So it's completelyyour responsibility to show that
you are breeding ground forattrition? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No,
this is a hot take. I have, andwe might disagree on it. And so
we can talk through it, butdisagree, sometimes still get
along. That's right. I will saythis, we disagree. But then we
refine our points of view,respectively, so we can come to
(05:58):
a point of agreement. I actuallydon't agree with this. The whole
let's agree to disagree. I thinkthat's actually the point of
division. I think that if youare in a disagreement about
something, and this is actuallya church thing, right? If you
are in disagreement aboutsomething, let's say it's, you
know, the team with a team leador a staff member with their
(06:19):
pastor, or something like thatyou should not rest to hey,
let's just agree to disagree.
You should actually pursue ahigher level of agreement. Yeah.
So it's not wrong to disagree.
But it's also not right. To stayin disagreement. Yeah. Right.
You want to pursue unity. Yeah.
Right. And so like, go ahead.
(06:40):
No, I was gonna say, I heard thephrase, it's not agree to
disagree. What you're ultimatelytrying for is agree to disagree
agreeably. Oh, as in, we've comeup with a common ground that
even So basically, what you justdid, yeah, like that. So
anyways, my hot take is around990s. Which, before I give it,
can you give people anunderstanding of what 990? Sir,
(07:02):
yeah. Soin the 501, C, three space,
charitable organizations arerequired to fill out and submit
to the IRS a 990. It's basicallyan accounting and tax record of
how funds have been used and howit's allocated. And things like
that. churches in America have aparticular you know, provision
(07:25):
where they don't have toactually submit a nine, nine. So
it's a bit of a wild wild westout there.
Do you know why that is? Why didthat provision happen to begin
with? That'sinteresting. So this country was
founded as a Christian nation,on Christian values. And, you
know, the local church has beena part of this nation's history
(07:47):
since the beginning. Maybe ithas to do with that. I actually
don't know the origin story ofwhy that is. But yeah, that's
what it is. Okay. Yeah.
So honestly, the context forthis is that my heart is so
broken for all of these churchesthat are just crumbling, when it
(08:09):
comes to a lack ofaccountability. Right. And so
actually,the number one reason for church
failure, right is actually notmoral failure. Yeah, it's a
failure of finances. Yeah.
And Seth Godin has thisbrilliant turn that he calls
putting yourself on the hook.
Oh, and I think the same methodcould dare I say, should be
applied in a church context isjust because you don't have to
(08:31):
submit a 990 Why not putyourself on the hook, go and put
transparency, be front footed,in your transparency, and how
much money is coming in? Howmuch money is going out? Where
it's going? And who it's goingto?
I'll take it one step further.
Get your financials audited,even though you don't have to?
(08:56):
What does that process looklike?
Yeah, so it actually is kind ofan investment, it will take like
15 to $20,000, to have fullyaudited financial books from an
outside accounting firm, wherethey will go through all of your
accounting practices and yourprocesses. And they basically
write a letter saying, Hey,we've audited this organization,
they handle their financesthrough GAAP standards, which
(09:21):
basically is the generallyacceptable accounting practices.
And so, ultimately, what anaudit is, is to bless the
financials saying, hey, what'srepresented here is what is
true. Okay. It's not, you know,false, or misinformation. Yeah.
And so that's what an audit is.
If you don't have the 15 to 20kto invest into it, even though I
(09:43):
think it's worth it becauseyou're being front footed.
You're being proactive. Yeah.
And that breeds trust. Then youcan do what's called a financial
review, which is much cheaper.
It's a magnet to choose maybe acouple $1,000 You could hire an
outside accounting firm so theydon't do the full gamut of what
an audit would entail. But thefinancial review process is
better than nothing. Right? Andyou did do the work of getting
(10:06):
an outside accounting firm, tolook under the hood of your
financials. There's also anorganization called ECFA, the
evangelical Christian FinancialAccounting Board, which is
probably one of the higheststandards that certain churches
in America to the 10s of 1000sof churches, at this point
(10:27):
adhere to, again, these are allproactive measures. If you
listen to this as a church, willyou get in trouble that you
don't do any of these things?
No. But maybe we should lookfrom a perspective of not okay,
what's the bare minimum? I cando, right? But hey, where can I
be proactive? Where it's goingto breed trust in my
(10:47):
organization? And actually, youknow, submitting yourself to
things like an audit willactually make you better. Right.
So yeah, most of the time, it'snot that most of the time,
literally, pastors CFOs ofchurches, there's there's
actually no ill intent. I mean,sometimes there is, but I would
say that's a minority, not themajority. Yeah. Most of the
time, there's no ill intent. Butthere might be ignorance. Yeah.
(11:09):
And that's not to throw shade orshame. You don't know what you
don't know. Right? And a lot oftimes when you're a church
plant, you're just starting outmaybe just a few years in, you
don't have MBAs on your stuff.
Yeah, yeah. I'm not saying that,you know, churches shouldn't
have those type of people. Weshould we should hire top
talent. Yeah. If you don't havethose type of people yet. You
don't know. You don't know. Sosubmit yourself to wise counsel
(11:31):
to outside counsel, and the areaof finances go above and beyond,
it'll make you better and willmake your organization more
trustworthy?
Yeah. 100%. I agree with that.
And I think the deeper principleis, you know, you've heard
messages before, were they like,if God put on the screen up in
front of us everything thatyou've ever done? What would you
(11:54):
think, you know, like, you'veheard examples like that before?
scare you into? Like, are youliving a biblical lifestyle?
Yeah, well,those weren't the altar calls a
really big thing, if you got hitby a bus tomorrow.
But I mean, the concept is thesame as if you're listening to
this. And you're like, why don'treally wanted everyone to know,
(12:14):
well, maybe that's the firsttelltale sign that you should
get on this, because that is howyou set yourself up for success
in your stewardship. Right. Andthat's what all this is about is
is stewardship. Is everyonegoing to read? The Financial?
What's that thing at the end ofthe year? The Annual Report,
right? The Financial Report?
Sure, maybe not. But the factthat you are willing to put it
(12:37):
out there and say, Hey, we knowthat this means a lot to a lot
of people, and we want to showyou where it is, then I think
that really would behoove theorganization. And that's another
way to build trust, here'sa pro tip, we will offer our
financial statements to anybodywho requests it, that is a
giver. And so there's people outthere that are just wanting to,
(12:59):
you know, be hateful. Right? Andif they're not a contributor, if
they're not a consistent giver,really, you know, they have no,
right. Yeah. So that's a littlepro tip that you don't have to
make your financials justavailable to anybody and
(13:20):
everybody. But those people thatare supporting your organization
that are consistent, faithfulgivers. You should make it
clear, yeah, hey, there's arequest process. We're happy to
provide that by going throughthis request process. In
addition to that, like I wassaying earlier, if you have it,
you know, it's funny, becauseyou were saying how not
(13:44):
everybody's gonna even read thefinancial statement. You know,
why? Because that everybodyknows how to read it. Yeah. And
again, that's such a shame, butnot everybody's an accountant.
Yeah. And that's why I'm sayingis like, that is a good thing to
have. But it's actually not themain main thing. The main main
thing is that your church goesabove and beyond to make it
evident that people'sinvestment, people's giving is
(14:06):
in good hands. Yeah. Because ofthis person's life changed
because of this campus plantedbecause we started this outreach
because we responded to Maui'sfire that literally is in
history, one of the worst usfires that America has ever
seen. Because we are active inour community, because we feed
(14:29):
the poor because we are engagedin civic engagement because you
know, so it should be soevident. Yes, it should be so
evident that you are meeting theneeds of the community that you
are seeing people saved anddiscipled that you have small
groups that are growing. Yeah,you know, what's healthy, gross,
and so if your finances arehealthy, if your people are
(14:52):
healthy, if your staff ishealthy, it'll grow and the
impact should be evident.
Yeah. And you know, we'reobviously talking about
safeguards. And I heard MarkPatterson and Rick Warren
talking about ledges. Yes. And Iwas said
to get Pastor Mark Batterson onthe pod. I was always on a zoom
(15:16):
with him the other day, and heis like the salt of the earth is
the best. Yeah, in Capitol Hill.
It's easy to see. Okay, make anote team marketing team, hey,
expensive marketing teammarketing
team for Mark. So they both do areverse type. Which means what
does that mean? They are givingaway 90% of the income and
(15:39):
living off the 10. It'sadmirable. And I was so inspired
when I heard that, that I waslike, I want to make that a
practice in my life andliterally, like ratchet up the
percentage points every year sothat if I get to live this long,
I'll be doing the same thing.
The way that my bank accountworks, it doesn't work with that
percentage yet. Yeah. Well, 1%is for attendance. I will say
(16:00):
yes. But that's admirable. Yeah.
But but it's just really thesame thing of putting yourself
in a place where you're alwaysuncomfortable, because there's a
God gap. I think that's, that'sreally what it all revolves
around. And because we'retalking about stewardship, I
actually want to share thisreally fun fact, with the
listeners, because we found thislast week at the time of
(16:22):
recording this. And we'retalking about processing fees,
and how we now offer the lowestcash processing fees in the
industry. Yep. Which your giverswould actually love to know that
they love knowing that stuff.
They want every dollarmaximized, insofar as
if you even give the option forpeople to pay the processing
(16:44):
fees with their game, we added afeature, we added the feature
overflow. That's so cool.
And this was mind blowing that48% of givers decided
to cover the fees. Yes, that'scrazy. That's crazy,
almost half without beingprovoked. Like it wasn't like a
from stage.
And that was just like, defaulton on the platform. Right? They
(17:05):
had to explicitly check toggle.
Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So good.
And but I think that speaks to adeeper principles that we care
deeply. And if if we know thatthat's a potential opportunity
or option, we'll come alongsidethat church
that launched it not too longago, they saw almost 4000 in
(17:25):
savings.
And how long last month in mytime, so
I don't do public math. Butthat's over $40,000 House
annualized, if they keep goingon that trend, which is
phenomenal. And a lot of peopleare covering the fees on their
recurring gift. And so they'recovering the fee and perpetuity
beautiful when you provide thatoption. Yeah. And so the world
(17:50):
of generous gets larger andlarger people are wired to give
people if you just give them anopportunity, you make it easy
through the platform. It'seasiest to overflow, by the way,
shout out. Yep. People do it.
Yeah. It's really inspiring.
Yeah,it is inspiring. And honestly,
that's why I wanted to have thisconversation as a millennial
churchgoer, because we careabout this. We care about the
(18:10):
church, that's why we'reinvested. That's why we're
giving. That's why we give ourtime. That's, that's why we want
to be sowing into somethingthat's bigger than us. And I
think that when pastors andchurch leaders hear this, know
that the work that you're doingis impactful. Come on. And along
with that, your transparency isjust as impactful to love that.
(18:32):
Thanks so much for listening tothe give it up podcast if you
want to receive even moreinsights on church innovation,
culture, and giving. Now you cansign up for free to be an
overflow insider, where you'llreceive exclusive content
discounts direct access to VanceRoush to get your questions
answered, and also invite onlyaccess to our monthly
(18:54):
fundraising leadership forums,head to overflow.co backslash
insider, or just click the linkin our bio to sign up for free
today. In order to get thispodcast in the ears of even more
church leaders. Could you pleasesubscribe and leave a review for
the show? This tells the podcastplayers what people are enjoying
and want to hear more of and weare adamant about providing
(19:16):
maximum value to even morechurch leaders. Thanks so much.
We'll see you next time.
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