In this episode, Vance sits down with Kyle Woumn (VP of Product and Engineering at Overflow + Forbes 30 Under 30) who shares about how and why he began donating corporate stock to nonprofits he believes in, and gives insight as to how you can find these donors in your very own community!
This podcast is presented by Overflow, the most powerful giving platform on the planet. Giving cash, stock, or crypto to your church or non-profit has never been easier. Visit overflow.co to experience and step into future of giving.
If you want to receive even more insights on church innovation, culture, and giving, now you can sign up for free to be an Overflow Insider, where you'll receive exclusive content, discounts, direct access to Vance Roush to get your questions answered, and also invite-only access to our monthly Fundraising Leadership Forums! Head to overflow.co/insider now!
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
You were actually one of the first users of overflow v
(00:03):
one.
I was at like v 0.1. Okay,okay. You clicked on the easy
button that yeah, just becausethere was some forms that you
had to fill out. And you had tolike send via fax, you literally
just didn't do it. Yeah, itjust seemed like too cumbersome.
And I'm like, where am I gonnaget a fax machine?
So overflow handling it for youin 2019 was the thing that
unlocked that form of giving yesfor you.
(00:26):
A pastor term tech leader and amillennial churchgoer, exploring
the intersection of technology,culture and faith, equipping you
with innovative strategies tosupport you as you live out your
calling leader churches withconfidence to step into the
future together. This is thegive it up podcast.
So this is exciting. Give it upfor my guy cow womb that is
(00:48):
making a little stop by at thepod at the give it up podcast
studios, we're gonna have aconversation about how we're
going to give it up formillennials giving stock because
this is actually a phenomena. Iwould say maybe this is like
saying too much, but maybe kindof change the trajectory of your
life a little bit. Absolutely.
Right. Because you're part ofthe founding team of overflow.
(01:10):
You're the VP of product andengineering. We're building
products every day, inspiringthe world to give. But really
the origin story of this wasjust a few years ago, when you
were actually one of the firstusers of overflow. Talk about
that. Give us a little bit likequick rewind into your venture
into tech into Twilio. And theninto this phenomenon of giving
(01:34):
stock to a local church.
Yeah, absolutely. So hey,everyone, my name is Kyle, happy
to be here on the give it uppodcast, man. So my journey
started, you know, just a fewyears ago, and 2015. I'm
originally from Atlanta, and Ihad the opportunity to come out
to the San Francisco Bay Area tointern at Twilio. Yep. And that
(01:55):
was my first time being exposedto, you know, the Silicon Valley
Tex tech company. Yeah. And atthe time, Twilio was a private
company still. And it was justreally cool to see. And so loved
it came back 2016 Did a secondinternship. And that year, they
went public. Okay, it was reallycool to see that I wish they
gave intern stock. They didn't,they didn't. Okay, I was like,
(02:16):
You know what, I had to comeback another year. Yeah. And so
after I graduated, I moved outhere to San Francisco Bay area
to work at Twilio full timetrying to get that bag trying to
get the bag. Exactly. And so,you know, when I got my offer
part of my compensation, theygave me a base salary. But then
the other component of mycompensation was actually stuff.
Did you expect that that it wasgoing to come with stock?
(02:38):
So I had heard about stock? AndI know that people said, you
know, a lot of wealth,especially in the valley and is
made through stock, but yeah, Ididn't really understand it if
I'm being onshore Sure. And Ididn't understand, like, the
potential that it had, and allthe ways that I could use this,
okay, sothey gave you some sort of base
salary, which you probably caredmore about, because like, I need
to pay rent, I gotta buy food.
(03:00):
You know, I'm trying to take mygirlfriend now, on a day, you
know, and that's cash money. Andthen there's this, like, low
stock component that, I thinkadmittedly, you're just like,
Okay, that's cool. How did youthink about it? Was it like,
Okay, I've heard that this couldbe significant, but I'm just out
of sight, out of mind typething.
That's literally what it was,you know, there's a one year
vesting period. So basically,within that first year, I don't
(03:22):
have access to any of the stock.
So to me, it's just paper money.
It wasn't real to me, in asense,
did that one year? I think theycall it cliff, right? Did that
influence you really like me? Igotta stay for at least a year.
Oh, absolutely.
They call it the goldenhandcuffs. That's what keeps
people there, because they seethe value of the stock. Okay.
(03:42):
And, you know, if you'refortunate to be at a company
where the value is growing, itcan you know, it can be life
changing. Andwhen you joined, how much did
was Twilio stock worth at thattime?
Yeah. So when I joined Twilio,in around February of 2017, the
stock prices around $33 $33Okay, so then they gave you a
certain X number of $33. A sharestock, correct. And you can't
(04:05):
access that for a year afteryear. What happens?
So after a year, I have accessto 25% of that stock. Okay,
so so you get like a package andthen you get 25% of that package
within one year. Exactly. Andthen what do you do? What's your
psychology you just holder yousell it and put it in an ETF
(04:26):
for? Yeah, what do you do withthat?
So a lot of people havedifferent opinions on this. And
when I first started out, Iwasn't really financially savvy.
So I asked, I just asked a lotof people a lot of really dumb
questions, if you want to callit that. And I'm just like, what
would I do with it? A lot ofpeople said they're gonna hold
because they really believe inthe company. Yeah, other people
said they sell every timebecause, you know, they they say
(04:47):
do you believe in your companyenough to where if you got just
a cash bonus, would you investthat cash into the company? So
that's a good way to think aboutit is and then I was like, you
know, my entire livelihood is inthis company. So I was the
person that would sell everyinvesting. Okay, got it.
But I had because you were tooconcentrated. Exactly wanted to
diversify abit. Exactly. I wanted to
diversify a bit. And I also hadstudent loans. After graduating
(05:08):
college, I had student loans.
And I was like, I can see thisas a way to help me fast track
that and pay down that debt. Andso I use it for that. Oh, that's
awesome. Also used it as adiversification strategy. Are
you all paid off with yourloans? Oh, yeah, those loans
longer would have paid off. Soa lot of that the stock vesting,
that was coming in, you'reapplying straight up and, you
(05:28):
know, paying down chunks, yes.
Of your loan? Yes. Oh, mygoodness, it was kind
of like, you'll just I wasgetting this extra money every
quarter. So after that one yearvesting period, the shares best
quarterly, yep, up to fouryears. And so it was kind of
like, I'm just getting thisexcess money every quarter.
Okay. And, you know, I had, youknow, I'm like, okay, I can, you
know, help family back at home,I can do all these different
(05:50):
things. It was just like a toolto, to that financial freedom
that I was looking. Soyour tenure at Twilio, you
always liquidated it and paidsomething off? Or when you
didn't you reinvested? Yes,exactly into what
I have. So I use Wealthfront.
And well, fun, for those thatmay not know is a robo advisor.
And so when you first sign up,they ask you some questions to
(06:13):
understand your risk profile.
I'm like a 10. I'm like, I'myoung, you know, put me in all
the risky stuff, I want to Iwant to be able to make this
money. And so I will put themoney into Wealthfront. And it
would just automaticallyallocate those funds based on
like my risk profileinto ETFs. Right, exactly. So
into diversified stockportfolios. Exactly,
(06:33):
essentially. And so risky mightbe maybe they give more exposure
to tech over energy. Energymight be more stable, but slow
growing industries tech is morerisky, but high growth
industries. So but it's doing itall for you. Exactly. It's like
out of sight out of mind in thatregard. Exactly. And then, you
know, over your tenure atTwilio, before you went into the
(06:54):
super risky game of startupswith me. Talk to me about how
that worked for you didWealthfront were you seeing
gains,I was seeing gains? Yeah. So
Well, for me, it was like reallycool to just kind of go in. I
mean, the market was also doingreally well, at the time, we're
in a bull market. And so it wasreally cool to just see those
gains. And there's just like agame where I just allocate the
(07:14):
funds and just kind of watch itgrow.
That's so interesting. So youare seeing kind of these gains
give us like an order ofmagnitude, what type of year
over year, percentage increase,like appreciated gains. were you
seeing, like on average? Yeah,I know, one year. So I started
around like 2018 usingWealthfront. And I will say in
that first year, I had it likearound like 10 or 11%, year over
(07:38):
year over year increase. Okay.
And so like it was booming, andit was really cool to see it
tapered off, like around like2020 Sure. And that's what we
know, the pandemic started andthings just the economy, the
stock market was going down. Andso a lot of those gains I still
had, I still actually had likeunrealized gains, though. It's
(07:59):
not like I lost everythingbecause I was essentially dollar
cost averaging. So yeah, everypaycheck, I will put out,
allocate some funds into thatWealthfront. So dollar
cost averaging for people thatdon't know is essentially based
on the principle that you're nottrying to time the market. A lot
of people are like, kinda likereal estate, buy low, sell high.
(08:22):
Well, good luck trying topredict that. How do you know if
it's low? How do you know ifit's the bottom? Yeah, how do
you know if it's high? How doyou notice a peak, but dollar
cost averaging? Risk mitigatesthat by setting some sort of
cadence? So let's say you'regoing to buy into the s&p
500 $100 per week, no matter ifthe s&p 500 is peaking, or at
(08:44):
its lowest, you're going toaverage out on whatever the way
the market grows over time,because you're constantly
injecting money to it on aconsistent basis. Exactly right.
And so your dollar costaveraging, and you're getting
kind of an annualized returnyear over year of 10% Plus, wish
to put this in context, right?
You know, if you put your moneyin a savings account, or just a
(09:09):
regular savings account, you'regetting minimal interest, like
sub a percent for sure. Probablyeven sub half a percent. Yeah,
probably maybe 25 pips, there'sgonna say Bank of America is
point zero 1%. Okay, so bad.
Yeah, really? 510 bits, right.
Okay. So you're getting like, Idon't know, I don't do public
math. This is bad. You know,100x that with just doing
(09:32):
something as simple as Roboinvesting, getting a 10%
annualized return, you know,even if you're doing something
more sophisticated, like buyinga Treasury in that time, it's
interest rates weren't as highas it is today. Right. So even
buying like a treasury, youknow, would only be like 2% 3%.
So, being able to invest in themarket and you know, things
(09:57):
might be down now. But as longas you don't need access to
those funds, and it's truly areserves account, a savings
account to build wealth, all ofa sudden, across multiple years,
I think the market across thelast 50 years has proven to be
able to SMP 500. has proven tobe able to get 10 to 12%. Yeah,
(10:18):
you know, if you keep it in italways long enough, it always
bounces back. And this hascompounding effect. Yes, now,
right. And so you're starting tosee those gains? Is this a
strategy that you still try toemploy today?
Absolutely. And I just thoughtabout this quote, it just
saying, you know, time in themarket is better than timing the
(10:40):
market. That's right. And sojust like being in the market,
you know, you win that way. Andthen, you know, to the fact of,
or to the point of compoundinterest, right? It's like, they
say, that's the eighth wonder ofthe world, right? Yes. And so
they say there's, you know,seven natural wonders of the
world, but the eighth iscompound interest, and those who
understand it really benefitfrom it. Okay, so
you have like, kind of likemaybe a rainy day type savings
(11:01):
fund just for like emergencies.
Yeah. But you're trying todeploy anything else that you
can save towards the market?
Yeah, that's your currentmillennial mindset. That's my
strategy. Was it because youworked for a company that gave
out equity for you to startthinking, like this? Or just
generally? Have you beeninterested in financing this way
(11:21):
from other sources?
I think that was part of it.
Like growing up, I think, is Ijust knew, like, my, my parents
didn't have like that financialsavviness. And so I'm like, this
is something that I want to beable to have, right. And so I
read this game, I read this bookby Tony Robbins, right before I
started my startup, my full timejob at Twilio. And it's called
Money mastering the game. Okay.
And he just talks about a lot ofthis stuff like dollar cost
(11:43):
averaging, and that was reallymy exposure into it. Yeah. And
then, you know, I just looked upother resources. And a lot of
people just like self taught orasking people Yeah, kinda like
the silly questions.
Totally. So you're doing thisbecause you're really looking
for ways to get financialfreedom? Yes, you want to uplift
community, you want to upliftfamily, you know, outside of
(12:05):
just those personal ambitions.
You know, we've talked a lotabout wanting to Live
generously. Yeah, right. We areboth believers and things like
the tithe, and things like that.
At the time, you know, we hadmet originally, if people don't
know this story, through viveSan Francisco, a church that Kim
and I planted back in, what wasthat? 2016 2017 2017. Okay. And
(12:28):
so that's kind of how we met. Soyou're a part of that community.
You are a giver, in thecommunity. And fast forward a
few years later, you know, I'mstarting to incubate this idea.
Because I kept meeting more andmore people like you, I start
incubating this idea aroundhelping people more seamlessly
(12:49):
consider giving stock directlyto the church, whether it's for
tithing, or whether it's forofferings, or whether it's for
participating in a visioncampaign. Talk me through that
origin story, because thatactually was like, the gateway
into you joining the team.
Yeah. So visit vive Easter 2017.
And that was like my firstexposure. I remember, I remember
(13:09):
meeting you, and I just thoughtyou were a regular person, you
know, I'm just a regular personthat meet up and then I'm just
like, oh, and then you go up onstage, like, Hey, I'm back. This
is my wife, Kim. And we're thecampus pastors of Via San
Francisco. I was like, Oh, he'sthe pastor. And so just a side
note,if you are a church leader, if
you're a campus, Pastor, masterthe way you DAP up your
(13:31):
congregation, okay? And alsodon't like Introduce yourself.
As I'm the campus pastor, I amlike senior apostle of blah,
blah, blah, like that. Just notas a good look. Right? It's
actually better if peoplerelationally connect with you
first, and then if later theyrealize you're a leader within
(13:52):
the community. Great. Obviously,if you aren't leading the
committee, it's going to beapparent in time. But okay, we
had an interaction. Yeah, wehave
an interaction. And, you know, Ireally enjoyed the experience.
And so I served on team, andevery year vive has a vision
Gala. And so I attended prettymuch all of them at that around
that time. And, you know, duringthe vision Gala, there's, you
(14:14):
know, Pastor Adam talks abouteverything that the church has
done, and then you know, heshares the vision for, you know,
the next year. Yeah, and askingpeople to partner for the
vision. And I noticed on thecar, there was like, a stock
option. Yeah, or an opportunityto give stock and firstly, I
didn't even know that peoplecould donate stock. Interesting.
You know, I only thought thatwith stock, you could only do
(14:36):
two things buy and sell. Ididn't know that give was an
option came to that. And so I'mlike, Okay, this is intriguing.
And so I marked it just out ofcuriosity, just to see what
would happen. So then, Ireceived an email, like a few
days later from the finance teamat vive asking me about
facilitating the stock transfer.
And so this is that might havebeen me. Yeah, exactly. Like
2017 2018 This is pre Oh, flow.
(15:00):
And there was. So basically Igot a receiving instruction on
how to facilitate this stock.
Yeah. But it required likefaxing some forms. And I was
like, You know what, I'mactually just going to liquidate
my stuff. Oh, you sold it. Isold my stock. Oh, and
then so when you sold it, youhad to pay capital gains in
that hurt. And I didn't,literally because I didn't want
(15:22):
to fax or not because I didn'twant to fax. But that was like
my only option. And I justreally did. So let's
just say for example, the stockthat you sold at Twilio was
$1,000. Because of capital gainstax, and I'm going to
oversimplify this. Your giftcould only be literally because
the government off the top takestheir taxes right away when you
liquidate. Especially withthese. Yeah. Especially with
(15:42):
these RSUs in the type of stockthat you get around $700.
Probably, yeah. Based on yourtax position. Yeah. So you could
have given 1000, right, and I'mmaking up numbers, but you could
have given like something like1000, but you can only give that
year 700. Because you liquidateit, yes. Oh, so interesting.
And I didn't know this. And youknow, I wasn't really playing
like the tax optimization game,then I just wasn't educated on
(16:04):
the topic. And stuff. They don'twant you to know they don't man.
And so when you and Ireconnected and you were, you
know, sharing about overflow, Iwas like, wow, like one
understanding that I could havesaved, you know, capital gains
taxes. And then to that, likeyou all would have basically
received the entire giftand you would have been able to
get a higher charitable taxdeduction. Yes, exactly. Because
(16:25):
if you only gave 700 You canonly deduct 700. Exactly. But if
you directly transferred thestock to the church, you would
have gotten the tax deduction atthe fair market value. Yes. Wow.
And so around. So the 2019vision goals, right? That's when
I was like, Okay, let me trythis out. And so, you know,
there was the, the V one, I wasat, like, v 0.1. Okay,
(16:47):
okay. Yo, che Kevin Lizano?
Don't I love you. He's a goodversion,
it was a good version. And sothen, you know, that's where I
had the opportunity to try itout, you know, we were able to
learn about a lot of thenuances. Because, like, there's
with employee stock, you have tokeep in mind things like trading
windows. And so for example, ifsomeone's working at a public
(17:09):
company, like Twilio, and theywant to give stock, they can
only give within certain certaintimes of the year. So that
timing was also reallyimportant, right? So it was like
a really cool opportunity. AndI'm just like, wow, and just
seeing us, you know, where welive. And this isn't just like,
a thing in the Bay Area, thishappens everywhere. But you
know, just being here, and likeseeing everyone that works at
(17:30):
you know, metta, Google, allthese companies out here in the
Valley. And they they may, youknow, their networks, may, they
may have a high net worth, butthey're, they're illiquid.
Right? And, and so, you know,that may be their, their only
way to give, right? Because whenyou think about and that was
kind of like my situation whereI'm like, Okay, I have the cash
in my bank account. But that'sgoing to my rent that's going to
(17:53):
all my you know, financialobligations that I need that
goes to saving, but then youknow, the stock, like I said, it
was just kind of like, kind oflike play money in his house
money. Exactly. It was housemoney. And I'm like, Okay, if I
can donate this, but also, youknow, so that can be generated.
But there's also like thatsecondary tax advantage. Yeah,
it's a no brainer for me. Sothat's when I use the platform.
(18:14):
And I was just like, wow, andyou
clicked on the easy button thatyear, I clicked. So literally,
just because there was someforms that you had to fill out.
And you had to like, send viafax, you literally just
didn't do it? Yeah, it justseemed like too cumbersome. And
I'm like, where am I going toget a fax machine? And I know, I
know, there's like online tools,but it was just, it just seemed
like too much. And you know, Iwas ignorant to the text. So
(18:35):
overflow, handling it for you in2019 was the thing that unlocked
that form of giving Yes, foryou. And if you weren't able to
give stock, you either wouldhave had to liquidate it, and
then give less and take a taxhit. Or probably give just less
Yes. In general, if you're gonnaget from your checking account,
(18:57):
exact, practically exact, right.
And obviously, the rest ishistory. Some of you that know
this story, Kyle then was soimpressed by 0.1 that he decided
to join the overflow team. Andwe've been building together for
a few years now. And it's beenfantastic because since then we
had pretty much 0.1 customers.
(19:18):
Now we now serve over 400customers, you know, some of the
best churches in the world, butalso nonprofits, American Cancer
Society. We got Golden StateWarriors, foundation, Meals on
Wheels, some of the most amazingYMCA, the most amazing
organizations on the planet.
Talk to us. You know, we'retalking a lot about the way you
think as a millennial aboutmoney. The way that you've saved
(19:41):
the way that you've even had theperspective around your stock
grants and things like that.
You're obviously not alone inthis there are at least hundreds
of 1000s If not approachingmillions of people literally
just like you that get paid likeyou Who? Or have gotten paid
(20:02):
like you and manage moneysimilar to you? Not everybody
like you, though, gives,obviously a big portion of your
giving is your conviction aroundreligious giving. Talk to us
about that.
Yeah. You know, I'm a believer.
And so I personally believe inthe time Yeah, I just believe
like, leaving a more generouslifestyle, it always comes back.
(20:22):
And it's like, I don't, I don'tdo it. Because, you know, I
don't do it for the reciprocity,but no, yeah, always comes back.
Yeah. So that's just somethingthat I've been principled in.
And like, even working atoverflow is really like opened
my eyes to, you know, generosityhas been cool. We've been
inspired. Yeah, like severalpeople's generosity really
crazy. Ourmission is to inspire the world
(20:42):
to give. But in doing this,we've been inspired, you know,
and I've been inspired to, youknow, even give more. And so,
it's been really cool. But like,like I said, I'm not the only
one, there's so many people outthere. They're also being
compensated and, you know,stock, but they may not even
know the options, they may onlyknow that you can just buy sell,
but they don't know about thegiving opportunity. And, you
know, one or two shares goes along way, especially if you're
(21:06):
at like a, you know, Googlewhere Amazon or Amazon Yeah, you
know, the share price like one,like if you have one a single
stock, right, that can feed somany people or that can really,
like make a difference as welleven for
you at Twilio. Right? Like whenyou join those $33 at one point.
And you know, at the time ofrecording Twilio has ups and
downs, you know, the market isjust up and down. But like at
(21:28):
one point, you got an A 33. Butat one point, it was like 350
Yeah, you you personally hadlike a 10x gain. Yes. On when
they originally granted you thisoffer, they didn't probably even
realize that, Oh, we're actuallygonna be paying called 10x more.
And you're probably appreciativeof that area. And so, you know,
I think that is something for,you know, pastors, executive
(21:50):
pastors, CFOs fundraisers outthere to realize that there are
literally people in yourcommunity right now that are
sitting on quote, unquote, housemoney, and that just like Kyle,
just a few years ago, didn'teven know that this was an
option. Let's close with this. Imean, you know, you said that
you had this conviction, or onthe time, just this deeper
(22:12):
conviction or on generosity.
Being a believer. Where'd thiscome from? Was this a pastor
growing up? Was this your mom? Iknow my mom. She would like
she's a big believer in time.
She would like hassle me when Iwas in college, transparently
wasn't tithing. I was nothonoring God. I was doing my own
thing. She would ask me everysingle Saturday. Hey, are you
tithing? Are you tithing? And Ijust like brushed her off. I can
(22:34):
see now that like it had someresidual effect. I don't know.
Was it a pastor? Was it a mom?
What was it in your life? Was itan experience? Yeah, I
will say is my honestly. So mywife, she's kinda like my
spiritual adviser. Yeah. Andlike even growing up allowance
money, right? I would sometimesget allowance sometimes not, you
know, apparently, what am Ipaying you to, you know, to do
what you're supposed to do. Butlike, in the rare times, I would
(22:56):
get allowance, right. You know,I would tell them I should be
tithing on this. You like hisincome? Right. And so, you know,
I would try them on myallowance. And you know, growing
up in church, this is when theyhave like the basket this
before, like, online. And so youhave the baskets with the wooden
Oh, yeah, those, the velvet.
I've had that red purplecoins in there. What church was
this? So it's called ray ofhope, Christian church. Of
(23:18):
course, I went to two churches.
One was called first me. Sofirst African Methodist,
Episcopal in Atlanta, and thenanother and then when I was
like, in middle school, westarted attending ray of hope,
Christianchurch. Okay. Okay. All right.
So you would give even off yourallowance of my allowance.
And so this is some. So thenwhen I you know, actually you
started making real money out.
And so I used to tie. So this iswhere I kind of had to make a
(23:40):
decision, right? It's like, do Itithe on gross or net? There's
like the age old debate a let'stalk about it. And so I used to
tie on net, right? And I'm like,wow, so I would say when I get
my tax return, but if I getanything, then I'll tie off of
that. But then I was like, Youknow what? God's been too good.
And I think it's just kind oflike, making that sacrifice. And
you know, giving Gross is justpaid off dividends. Oh,
(24:05):
that's interesting. So youdidn't even get into like a
super deep philosophical debateon the technicality of it.
Basically, the tie break for youis like, ah, if it was a this
versus that, might as well justbe more generous.
crustaceans, friends about this.
And yeah, it's just kind oflike, you know, it's already his
and none of it was was my money.
(24:25):
Hey, that's a big decision inCalifornia. It is being you
know, tithing off gross. Andthen seeing what the net comes
out with after taxes inCalifornia. Yeah, it hurts.
Even times where I'm like, ooh,do I stop? I'm like, No, I can't
do that. And I'm like, Well, Ilike Okay. Talk to us about the
temptation of that because Ithink probably millennials. I
mean, probably everybodystruggle with that temptation.
(24:46):
Of do I stop? What what is thatconversation you have with in
your head? Yeah,I think it's just kind of like I
feel like if I stop is kind oflike saying to God, like, I
don't trust you. Wow. And that'sthe feeling I have and I have A
friend who puts it in like otherterms, who times and he's always
like, this is like my lifeinsurance policy. That's what he
says, wow. It's a funny way tolook at it, it's a funny way to
(25:08):
look at it. I don't want to,like, look at it that way. But
like, like, if we were to lookat it holistically, though, I
think, you know, for me, it'slike, if I were to stop, then it
just felt like, Okay, I don'ttrust God that he'll provide
elsewhere, like when I need it.
And so I lovethat man, I love how these, it's
just one aspect of our walk withGod. Right. But you know, this
being a very important aspect oftrusting God, you know, is
(25:31):
connected to a lot of things.
We've had conversations, andit's going to be too much for
this pod. But God is literallysaved your life. Yeah. You know,
through like a crazy event, Ithink in San Francisco shooting,
God has showed up in our livesthrough our company, right, we
have, you know, gotten fundingrounds, you probably shouldn't
have gotten that back in theday. And, you know, we've been
(25:53):
entrusted with customers thathave been like miracles, and
that has produced momentum andto becoming the company that we
now are being entrusted byhundreds and hundreds, and by
the end of this year, probably1000s of organizations. And so
that's really cool. How justthis component within your life
of giving, is so connected now.
So integrated, so into a lot ofthings that you're doing, and
(26:17):
time and time again, I just seethe fruit of it, too. Yeah.
So I mean, give it up formillennials giving stock, but
just give it up for thisgeneration, millennials that
have the conviction of the tiethat I know, you might be a
pastor or a church leader, andyou might be timid, about
teaching on the type of teacherand generosity teaching on
(26:39):
giving, but I'm sitting acrossfrom a person that's just a bit
younger than me, we're bothmillennials that believe in it.
Yeah, that live it, thatactually practice it. If I can
do it, if Kyle can do it, if wecan't have an authentic
conversation of it beingpowerful in our life. Just
imagine how many more people inyour congregation, your
(26:59):
community, your church, yourdonor base, are hungry for
having somebody challenged themin their life in this area. Just
watch. If this first principleis working for us, I imagine
that it can work for so manymore people in your community.
So that's episode for today.
Thanks for coming on, man.
Happy to be here. So good.
Thanks so much for listening tothe give it up podcast if you
(27:22):
want to receive even moreinsights on church innovation,
culture, and giving. Now you cansign up for free to be an
overflow insider, where you'llreceive exclusive content
discounts direct access to VanceRoush to get your questions
answered. And also invite onlyaccess to our monthly
fundraising leadership forums,head to overflow.co backslash
(27:44):
insider, or just click the linkin our bio to sign up for free
today. In order to get thispodcast in the ears of even more
church leaders. Could you pleasesubscribe and leave a review for
the show? This tells the podcastplayers what people are enjoying
and want to hear more of and weare adamant about providing
maximum value to even morechurch leaders. Thanks so much.
(28:06):
We'll see you next time.
You were actually one of the first users of overflow v
(00:03):
one.
I was at like v 0.1. Okay,okay. You clicked on the easy
button that yeah, just becausethere was some forms that you
had to fill out. And you had tolike send via fax, you literally
just didn't do it. Yeah, itjust seemed like too cumbersome.
And I'm like, where am I gonnaget a fax machine?
So overflow handling it for youin 2019 was the thing that
unlocked that form of giving yesfor you.
(00:26):
A pastor term tech leader and amillennial churchgoer, exploring
the intersection of technology,culture and faith, equipping you
with innovative strategies tosupport you as you live out your
calling leader churches withconfidence to step into the
future together. This is thegive it up podcast.
So this is exciting. Give it upfor my guy cow womb that is
(00:48):
making a little stop by at thepod at the give it up podcast
studios, we're gonna have aconversation about how we're
going to give it up formillennials giving stock because
this is actually a phenomena. Iwould say maybe this is like
saying too much, but maybe kindof change the trajectory of your
life a little bit. Absolutely.
Right. Because you're part ofthe founding team of overflow.
(01:10):
You're the VP of product andengineering. We're building
products every day, inspiringthe world to give. But really
the origin story of this wasjust a few years ago, when you
were actually one of the firstusers of overflow. Talk about
that. Give us a little bit likequick rewind into your venture
into tech into Twilio. And theninto this phenomenon of giving
(01:34):
stock to a local church.
Yeah, absolutely. So hey,everyone, my name is Kyle, happy
to be here on the give it uppodcast, man. So my journey
started, you know, just a fewyears ago, and 2015. I'm
originally from Atlanta, and Ihad the opportunity to come out
to the San Francisco Bay Area tointern at Twilio. Yep. And that
(01:55):
was my first time being exposedto, you know, the Silicon Valley
Tex tech company. Yeah. And atthe time, Twilio was a private
company still. And it was justreally cool to see. And so loved
it came back 2016 Did a secondinternship. And that year, they
went public. Okay, it was reallycool to see that I wish they
gave intern stock. They didn't,they didn't. Okay, I was like,
(02:16):
You know what, I had to comeback another year. Yeah. And so
after I graduated, I moved outhere to San Francisco Bay area
to work at Twilio full timetrying to get that bag trying to
get the bag. Exactly. And so,you know, when I got my offer
part of my compensation, theygave me a base salary. But then
the other component of mycompensation was actually stuff.
Did you expect that that it wasgoing to come with stock?
(02:38):
So I had heard about stock? AndI know that people said, you
know, a lot of wealth,especially in the valley and is
made through stock, but yeah, Ididn't really understand it if
I'm being onshore Sure. And Ididn't understand, like, the
potential that it had, and allthe ways that I could use this,
okay, sothey gave you some sort of base
salary, which you probably caredmore about, because like, I need
to pay rent, I gotta buy food.
(03:00):
You know, I'm trying to take mygirlfriend now, on a day, you
know, and that's cash money. Andthen there's this, like, low
stock component that, I thinkadmittedly, you're just like,
Okay, that's cool. How did youthink about it? Was it like,
Okay, I've heard that this couldbe significant, but I'm just out
of sight, out of mind typething.
That's literally what it was,you know, there's a one year
vesting period. So basically,within that first year, I don't
(03:22):
have access to any of the stock.
So to me, it's just paper money.
It wasn't real to me, in asense,
did that one year? I think theycall it cliff, right? Did that
influence you really like me? Igotta stay for at least a year.
Oh, absolutely.
They call it the goldenhandcuffs. That's what keeps
people there, because they seethe value of the stock. Okay.
(03:42):
And, you know, if you'refortunate to be at a company
where the value is growing, itcan you know, it can be life
changing. Andwhen you joined, how much did
was Twilio stock worth at thattime?
Yeah. So when I joined Twilio,in around February of 2017, the
stock prices around $33 $33Okay, so then they gave you a
certain X number of $33. A sharestock, correct. And you can't
(04:05):
access that for a year afteryear. What happens?
So after a year, I have accessto 25% of that stock. Okay,
so so you get like a package andthen you get 25% of that package
within one year. Exactly. Andthen what do you do? What's your
psychology you just holder yousell it and put it in an ETF
(04:26):
for? Yeah, what do you do withthat?
So a lot of people havedifferent opinions on this. And
when I first started out, Iwasn't really financially savvy.
So I asked, I just asked a lotof people a lot of really dumb
questions, if you want to callit that. And I'm just like, what
would I do with it? A lot ofpeople said they're gonna hold
because they really believe inthe company. Yeah, other people
said they sell every timebecause, you know, they they say
(04:47):
do you believe in your companyenough to where if you got just
a cash bonus, would you investthat cash into the company? So
that's a good way to think aboutit is and then I was like, you
know, my entire livelihood is inthis company. So I was the
person that would sell everyinvesting. Okay, got it.
But I had because you were tooconcentrated. Exactly wanted to
diversify abit. Exactly. I wanted to
diversify a bit. And I also hadstudent loans. After graduating
(05:08):
college, I had student loans.
And I was like, I can see thisas a way to help me fast track
that and pay down that debt. Andso I use it for that. Oh, that's
awesome. Also used it as adiversification strategy. Are
you all paid off with yourloans? Oh, yeah, those loans
longer would have paid off. Soa lot of that the stock vesting,
that was coming in, you'reapplying straight up and, you
(05:28):
know, paying down chunks, yes.
Of your loan? Yes. Oh, mygoodness, it was kind
of like, you'll just I wasgetting this extra money every
quarter. So after that one yearvesting period, the shares best
quarterly, yep, up to fouryears. And so it was kind of
like, I'm just getting thisexcess money every quarter.
Okay. And, you know, I had, youknow, I'm like, okay, I can, you
know, help family back at home,I can do all these different
(05:50):
things. It was just like a toolto, to that financial freedom
that I was looking. Soyour tenure at Twilio, you
always liquidated it and paidsomething off? Or when you
didn't you reinvested? Yes,exactly into what
I have. So I use Wealthfront.
And well, fun, for those thatmay not know is a robo advisor.
And so when you first sign up,they ask you some questions to
(06:13):
understand your risk profile.
I'm like a 10. I'm like, I'myoung, you know, put me in all
the risky stuff, I want to Iwant to be able to make this
money. And so I will put themoney into Wealthfront. And it
would just automaticallyallocate those funds based on
like my risk profileinto ETFs. Right, exactly. So
into diversified stockportfolios. Exactly,
(06:33):
essentially. And so risky mightbe maybe they give more exposure
to tech over energy. Energymight be more stable, but slow
growing industries tech is morerisky, but high growth
industries. So but it's doing itall for you. Exactly. It's like
out of sight out of mind in thatregard. Exactly. And then, you
know, over your tenure atTwilio, before you went into the
(06:54):
super risky game of startupswith me. Talk to me about how
that worked for you didWealthfront were you seeing
gains,I was seeing gains? Yeah. So
Well, for me, it was like reallycool to just kind of go in. I
mean, the market was also doingreally well, at the time, we're
in a bull market. And so it wasreally cool to just see those
gains. And there's just like agame where I just allocate the
(07:14):
funds and just kind of watch itgrow.
That's so interesting. So youare seeing kind of these gains
give us like an order ofmagnitude, what type of year
over year, percentage increase,like appreciated gains. were you
seeing, like on average? Yeah,I know, one year. So I started
around like 2018 usingWealthfront. And I will say in
that first year, I had it likearound like 10 or 11%, year over
(07:38):
year over year increase. Okay.
And so like it was booming, andit was really cool to see it
tapered off, like around like2020 Sure. And that's what we
know, the pandemic started andthings just the economy, the
stock market was going down. Andso a lot of those gains I still
had, I still actually had likeunrealized gains, though. It's
(07:59):
not like I lost everythingbecause I was essentially dollar
cost averaging. So yeah, everypaycheck, I will put out,
allocate some funds into thatWealthfront. So dollar
cost averaging for people thatdon't know is essentially based
on the principle that you're nottrying to time the market. A lot
of people are like, kinda likereal estate, buy low, sell high.
(08:22):
Well, good luck trying topredict that. How do you know if
it's low? How do you know ifit's the bottom? Yeah, how do
you know if it's high? How doyou notice a peak, but dollar
cost averaging? Risk mitigatesthat by setting some sort of
cadence? So let's say you'regoing to buy into the s&p
500 $100 per week, no matter ifthe s&p 500 is peaking, or at
(08:44):
its lowest, you're going toaverage out on whatever the way
the market grows over time,because you're constantly
injecting money to it on aconsistent basis. Exactly right.
And so your dollar costaveraging, and you're getting
kind of an annualized returnyear over year of 10% Plus, wish
to put this in context, right?
You know, if you put your moneyin a savings account, or just a
(09:09):
regular savings account, you'regetting minimal interest, like
sub a percent for sure. Probablyeven sub half a percent. Yeah,
probably maybe 25 pips, there'sgonna say Bank of America is
point zero 1%. Okay, so bad.
Yeah, really? 510 bits, right.
Okay. So you're getting like, Idon't know, I don't do public
math. This is bad. You know,100x that with just doing
(09:32):
something as simple as Roboinvesting, getting a 10%
annualized return, you know,even if you're doing something
more sophisticated, like buyinga Treasury in that time, it's
interest rates weren't as highas it is today. Right. So even
buying like a treasury, youknow, would only be like 2% 3%.
So, being able to invest in themarket and you know, things
(09:57):
might be down now. But as longas you don't need access to
those funds, and it's truly areserves account, a savings
account to build wealth, all ofa sudden, across multiple years,
I think the market across thelast 50 years has proven to be
able to SMP 500. has proven tobe able to get 10 to 12%. Yeah,
(10:18):
you know, if you keep it in italways long enough, it always
bounces back. And this hascompounding effect. Yes, now,
right. And so you're starting tosee those gains? Is this a
strategy that you still try toemploy today?
Absolutely. And I just thoughtabout this quote, it just
saying, you know, time in themarket is better than timing the
(10:40):
market. That's right. And sojust like being in the market,
you know, you win that way. Andthen, you know, to the fact of,
or to the point of compoundinterest, right? It's like, they
say, that's the eighth wonder ofthe world, right? Yes. And so
they say there's, you know,seven natural wonders of the
world, but the eighth iscompound interest, and those who
understand it really benefitfrom it. Okay, so
you have like, kind of likemaybe a rainy day type savings
(11:01):
fund just for like emergencies.
Yeah. But you're trying todeploy anything else that you
can save towards the market?
Yeah, that's your currentmillennial mindset. That's my
strategy. Was it because youworked for a company that gave
out equity for you to startthinking, like this? Or just
generally? Have you beeninterested in financing this way
(11:21):
from other sources?
I think that was part of it.
Like growing up, I think, is Ijust knew, like, my, my parents
didn't have like that financialsavviness. And so I'm like, this
is something that I want to beable to have, right. And so I
read this game, I read this bookby Tony Robbins, right before I
started my startup, my full timejob at Twilio. And it's called
Money mastering the game. Okay.
And he just talks about a lot ofthis stuff like dollar cost
(11:43):
averaging, and that was reallymy exposure into it. Yeah. And
then, you know, I just looked upother resources. And a lot of
people just like self taught orasking people Yeah, kinda like
the silly questions.
Totally. So you're doing thisbecause you're really looking
for ways to get financialfreedom? Yes, you want to uplift
community, you want to upliftfamily, you know, outside of
(12:05):
just those personal ambitions.
You know, we've talked a lotabout wanting to Live
generously. Yeah, right. We areboth believers and things like
the tithe, and things like that.
At the time, you know, we hadmet originally, if people don't
know this story, through viveSan Francisco, a church that Kim
and I planted back in, what wasthat? 2016 2017 2017. Okay. And
(12:28):
so that's kind of how we met. Soyou're a part of that community.
You are a giver, in thecommunity. And fast forward a
few years later, you know, I'mstarting to incubate this idea.
Because I kept meeting more andmore people like you, I start
incubating this idea aroundhelping people more seamlessly
(12:49):
consider giving stock directlyto the church, whether it's for
tithing, or whether it's forofferings, or whether it's for
participating in a visioncampaign. Talk me through that
origin story, because thatactually was like, the gateway
into you joining the team.
Yeah. So visit vive Easter 2017.
And that was like my firstexposure. I remember, I remember
(13:09):
meeting you, and I just thoughtyou were a regular person, you
know, I'm just a regular personthat meet up and then I'm just
like, oh, and then you go up onstage, like, Hey, I'm back. This
is my wife, Kim. And we're thecampus pastors of Via San
Francisco. I was like, Oh, he'sthe pastor. And so just a side
note,if you are a church leader, if
you're a campus, Pastor, masterthe way you DAP up your
(13:31):
congregation, okay? And alsodon't like Introduce yourself.
As I'm the campus pastor, I amlike senior apostle of blah,
blah, blah, like that. Just notas a good look. Right? It's
actually better if peoplerelationally connect with you
first, and then if later theyrealize you're a leader within
(13:52):
the community. Great. Obviously,if you aren't leading the
committee, it's going to beapparent in time. But okay, we
had an interaction. Yeah, wehave
an interaction. And, you know, Ireally enjoyed the experience.
And so I served on team, andevery year vive has a vision
Gala. And so I attended prettymuch all of them at that around
that time. And, you know, duringthe vision Gala, there's, you
(14:14):
know, Pastor Adam talks abouteverything that the church has
done, and then you know, heshares the vision for, you know,
the next year. Yeah, and askingpeople to partner for the
vision. And I noticed on thecar, there was like, a stock
option. Yeah, or an opportunityto give stock and firstly, I
didn't even know that peoplecould donate stock. Interesting.
You know, I only thought thatwith stock, you could only do
(14:36):
two things buy and sell. Ididn't know that give was an
option came to that. And so I'mlike, Okay, this is intriguing.
And so I marked it just out ofcuriosity, just to see what
would happen. So then, Ireceived an email, like a few
days later from the finance teamat vive asking me about
facilitating the stock transfer.
And so this is that might havebeen me. Yeah, exactly. Like
2017 2018 This is pre Oh, flow.
(15:00):
And there was. So basically Igot a receiving instruction on
how to facilitate this stock.
Yeah. But it required likefaxing some forms. And I was
like, You know what, I'mactually just going to liquidate
my stuff. Oh, you sold it. Isold my stock. Oh, and
then so when you sold it, youhad to pay capital gains in
that hurt. And I didn't,literally because I didn't want
(15:22):
to fax or not because I didn'twant to fax. But that was like
my only option. And I justreally did. So let's
just say for example, the stockthat you sold at Twilio was
$1,000. Because of capital gainstax, and I'm going to
oversimplify this. Your giftcould only be literally because
the government off the top takestheir taxes right away when you
liquidate. Especially withthese. Yeah. Especially with
(15:42):
these RSUs in the type of stockthat you get around $700.
Probably, yeah. Based on yourtax position. Yeah. So you could
have given 1000, right, and I'mmaking up numbers, but you could
have given like something like1000, but you can only give that
year 700. Because you liquidateit, yes. Oh, so interesting.
And I didn't know this. And youknow, I wasn't really playing
like the tax optimization game,then I just wasn't educated on
(16:04):
the topic. And stuff. They don'twant you to know they don't man.
And so when you and Ireconnected and you were, you
know, sharing about overflow, Iwas like, wow, like one
understanding that I could havesaved, you know, capital gains
taxes. And then to that, likeyou all would have basically
received the entire giftand you would have been able to
get a higher charitable taxdeduction. Yes, exactly. Because
(16:25):
if you only gave 700 You canonly deduct 700. Exactly. But if
you directly transferred thestock to the church, you would
have gotten the tax deduction atthe fair market value. Yes. Wow.
And so around. So the 2019vision goals, right? That's when
I was like, Okay, let me trythis out. And so, you know,
there was the, the V one, I wasat, like, v 0.1. Okay,
(16:47):
okay. Yo, che Kevin Lizano?
Don't I love you. He's a goodversion,
it was a good version. And sothen, you know, that's where I
had the opportunity to try itout, you know, we were able to
learn about a lot of thenuances. Because, like, there's
with employee stock, you have tokeep in mind things like trading
windows. And so for example, ifsomeone's working at a public
(17:09):
company, like Twilio, and theywant to give stock, they can
only give within certain certaintimes of the year. So that
timing was also reallyimportant, right? So it was like
a really cool opportunity. AndI'm just like, wow, and just
seeing us, you know, where welive. And this isn't just like,
a thing in the Bay Area, thishappens everywhere. But you
know, just being here, and likeseeing everyone that works at
(17:30):
you know, metta, Google, allthese companies out here in the
Valley. And they they may, youknow, their networks, may, they
may have a high net worth, butthey're, they're illiquid.
Right? And, and so, you know,that may be their, their only
way to give, right? Because whenyou think about and that was
kind of like my situation whereI'm like, Okay, I have the cash
in my bank account. But that'sgoing to my rent that's going to
(17:53):
all my you know, financialobligations that I need that
goes to saving, but then youknow, the stock, like I said, it
was just kind of like, kind oflike play money in his house
money. Exactly. It was housemoney. And I'm like, Okay, if I
can donate this, but also, youknow, so that can be generated.
But there's also like thatsecondary tax advantage. Yeah,
it's a no brainer for me. Sothat's when I use the platform.
(18:14):
And I was just like, wow, andyou
clicked on the easy button thatyear, I clicked. So literally,
just because there was someforms that you had to fill out.
And you had to like, send viafax, you literally just
didn't do it? Yeah, it justseemed like too cumbersome. And
I'm like, where am I going toget a fax machine? And I know, I
know, there's like online tools,but it was just, it just seemed
like too much. And you know, Iwas ignorant to the text. So
(18:35):
overflow, handling it for you in2019 was the thing that unlocked
that form of giving Yes, foryou. And if you weren't able to
give stock, you either wouldhave had to liquidate it, and
then give less and take a taxhit. Or probably give just less
Yes. In general, if you're gonnaget from your checking account,
(18:57):
exact, practically exact, right.
And obviously, the rest ishistory. Some of you that know
this story, Kyle then was soimpressed by 0.1 that he decided
to join the overflow team. Andwe've been building together for
a few years now. And it's beenfantastic because since then we
had pretty much 0.1 customers.
(19:18):
Now we now serve over 400customers, you know, some of the
best churches in the world, butalso nonprofits, American Cancer
Society. We got Golden StateWarriors, foundation, Meals on
Wheels, some of the most amazingYMCA, the most amazing
organizations on the planet.
Talk to us. You know, we'retalking a lot about the way you
think as a millennial aboutmoney. The way that you've saved
(19:41):
the way that you've even had theperspective around your stock
grants and things like that.
You're obviously not alone inthis there are at least hundreds
of 1000s If not approachingmillions of people literally
just like you that get paid likeyou Who? Or have gotten paid
(20:02):
like you and manage moneysimilar to you? Not everybody
like you, though, gives,obviously a big portion of your
giving is your conviction aroundreligious giving. Talk to us
about that.
Yeah. You know, I'm a believer.
And so I personally believe inthe time Yeah, I just believe
like, leaving a more generouslifestyle, it always comes back.
(20:22):
And it's like, I don't, I don'tdo it. Because, you know, I
don't do it for the reciprocity,but no, yeah, always comes back.
Yeah. So that's just somethingthat I've been principled in.
And like, even working atoverflow is really like opened
my eyes to, you know, generosityhas been cool. We've been
inspired. Yeah, like severalpeople's generosity really
crazy. Ourmission is to inspire the world
(20:42):
to give. But in doing this,we've been inspired, you know,
and I've been inspired to, youknow, even give more. And so,
it's been really cool. But like,like I said, I'm not the only
one, there's so many people outthere. They're also being
compensated and, you know,stock, but they may not even
know the options, they may onlyknow that you can just buy sell,
but they don't know about thegiving opportunity. And, you
know, one or two shares goes along way, especially if you're
(21:06):
at like a, you know, Googlewhere Amazon or Amazon Yeah, you
know, the share price like one,like if you have one a single
stock, right, that can feed somany people or that can really,
like make a difference as welleven for
you at Twilio. Right? Like whenyou join those $33 at one point.
And you know, at the time ofrecording Twilio has ups and
downs, you know, the market isjust up and down. But like at
(21:28):
one point, you got an A 33. Butat one point, it was like 350
Yeah, you you personally hadlike a 10x gain. Yes. On when
they originally granted you thisoffer, they didn't probably even
realize that, Oh, we're actuallygonna be paying called 10x more.
And you're probably appreciativeof that area. And so, you know,
I think that is something for,you know, pastors, executive
(21:50):
pastors, CFOs fundraisers outthere to realize that there are
literally people in yourcommunity right now that are
sitting on quote, unquote, housemoney, and that just like Kyle,
just a few years ago, didn'teven know that this was an
option. Let's close with this. Imean, you know, you said that
you had this conviction, or onthe time, just this deeper
(22:12):
conviction or on generosity.
Being a believer. Where'd thiscome from? Was this a pastor
growing up? Was this your mom? Iknow my mom. She would like
she's a big believer in time.
She would like hassle me when Iwas in college, transparently
wasn't tithing. I was nothonoring God. I was doing my own
thing. She would ask me everysingle Saturday. Hey, are you
tithing? Are you tithing? And Ijust like brushed her off. I can
(22:34):
see now that like it had someresidual effect. I don't know.
Was it a pastor? Was it a mom?
What was it in your life? Was itan experience? Yeah, I
will say is my honestly. So mywife, she's kinda like my
spiritual adviser. Yeah. Andlike even growing up allowance
money, right? I would sometimesget allowance sometimes not, you
know, apparently, what am Ipaying you to, you know, to do
what you're supposed to do. Butlike, in the rare times, I would
(22:56):
get allowance, right. You know,I would tell them I should be
tithing on this. You like hisincome? Right. And so, you know,
I would try them on myallowance. And you know, growing
up in church, this is when theyhave like the basket this
before, like, online. And so youhave the baskets with the wooden
Oh, yeah, those, the velvet.
I've had that red purplecoins in there. What church was
this? So it's called ray ofhope, Christian church. Of
(23:18):
course, I went to two churches.
One was called first me. Sofirst African Methodist,
Episcopal in Atlanta, and thenanother and then when I was
like, in middle school, westarted attending ray of hope,
Christianchurch. Okay. Okay. All right.
So you would give even off yourallowance of my allowance.
And so this is some. So thenwhen I you know, actually you
started making real money out.
And so I used to tie. So this iswhere I kind of had to make a
(23:40):
decision, right? It's like, do Itithe on gross or net? There's
like the age old debate a let'stalk about it. And so I used to
tie on net, right? And I'm like,wow, so I would say when I get
my tax return, but if I getanything, then I'll tie off of
that. But then I was like, Youknow what? God's been too good.
And I think it's just kind oflike, making that sacrifice. And
you know, giving Gross is justpaid off dividends. Oh,
(24:05):
that's interesting. So youdidn't even get into like a
super deep philosophical debateon the technicality of it.
Basically, the tie break for youis like, ah, if it was a this
versus that, might as well justbe more generous.
crustaceans, friends about this.
And yeah, it's just kind oflike, you know, it's already his
and none of it was was my money.
(24:25):
Hey, that's a big decision inCalifornia. It is being you
know, tithing off gross. Andthen seeing what the net comes
out with after taxes inCalifornia. Yeah, it hurts.
Even times where I'm like, ooh,do I stop? I'm like, No, I can't
do that. And I'm like, Well, Ilike Okay. Talk to us about the
temptation of that because Ithink probably millennials. I
mean, probably everybodystruggle with that temptation.
(24:46):
Of do I stop? What what is thatconversation you have with in
your head? Yeah,I think it's just kind of like I
feel like if I stop is kind oflike saying to God, like, I
don't trust you. Wow. And that'sthe feeling I have and I have A
friend who puts it in like otherterms, who times and he's always
like, this is like my lifeinsurance policy. That's what he
says, wow. It's a funny way tolook at it, it's a funny way to
(25:08):
look at it. I don't want to,like, look at it that way. But
like, like, if we were to lookat it holistically, though, I
think, you know, for me, it'slike, if I were to stop, then it
just felt like, Okay, I don'ttrust God that he'll provide
elsewhere, like when I need it.
And so I lovethat man, I love how these, it's
just one aspect of our walk withGod. Right. But you know, this
being a very important aspect oftrusting God, you know, is
(25:31):
connected to a lot of things.
We've had conversations, andit's going to be too much for
this pod. But God is literallysaved your life. Yeah. You know,
through like a crazy event, Ithink in San Francisco shooting,
God has showed up in our livesthrough our company, right, we
have, you know, gotten fundingrounds, you probably shouldn't
have gotten that back in theday. And, you know, we've been
(25:53):
entrusted with customers thathave been like miracles, and
that has produced momentum andto becoming the company that we
now are being entrusted byhundreds and hundreds, and by
the end of this year, probably1000s of organizations. And so
that's really cool. How justthis component within your life
of giving, is so connected now.
So integrated, so into a lot ofthings that you're doing, and
(26:17):
time and time again, I just seethe fruit of it, too. Yeah.
So I mean, give it up formillennials giving stock, but
just give it up for thisgeneration, millennials that
have the conviction of the tiethat I know, you might be a
pastor or a church leader, andyou might be timid, about
teaching on the type of teacherand generosity teaching on
(26:39):
giving, but I'm sitting acrossfrom a person that's just a bit
younger than me, we're bothmillennials that believe in it.
Yeah, that live it, thatactually practice it. If I can
do it, if Kyle can do it, if wecan't have an authentic
conversation of it beingpowerful in our life. Just
imagine how many more people inyour congregation, your
(26:59):
community, your church, yourdonor base, are hungry for
having somebody challenged themin their life in this area. Just
watch. If this first principleis working for us, I imagine
that it can work for so manymore people in your community.
So that's episode for today.
Thanks for coming on, man.
Happy to be here. So good.
Thanks so much for listening tothe give it up podcast if you
(27:22):
want to receive even moreinsights on church innovation,
culture, and giving. Now you cansign up for free to be an
overflow insider, where you'llreceive exclusive content
discounts direct access to VanceRoush to get your questions
answered. And also invite onlyaccess to our monthly
fundraising leadership forums,head to overflow.co backslash
(27:44):
insider, or just click the linkin our bio to sign up for free
today. In order to get thispodcast in the ears of even more
church leaders. Could you pleasesubscribe and leave a review for
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and want to hear more of and weare adamant about providing
maximum value to even morechurch leaders. Thanks so much.
(28:06):
We'll see you next time.
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