September 21, 2023 • 29 mins
Being a tech founder and also a pastor in the Silicon Valley, Vance Roush and his co-worker Zoe discuss their experiences wanting to be Kingdom minded in the workplace, entrepreneurship in the Bible, how churches can walk with their businesspeople in the congregation better, and using one's gifts OUTside the church.
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:00):
Jesus was a rabbi and a carpenter. There was roles there
(00:05):
was entrepreneurial endeavors.
Maybe we're just not talkingabout it enough. Biblically,
entrepreneurship is all over theBible. The venture capitalists
of that day were women thatfunded the ministry of Jesus.
People need to be exposed towhat it can look like in the
here and now.
A pastor turn tech leader and amillennial churchgoer, exploring
(00:27):
the intersection of technology,culture and faith, equipping you
with innovative strategies tosupport you as you live out your
calling leader churches withconfidence to step into the
future together. This is thegive it up podcast. So Vance,
yes, I want to tell you aboutthe struggle that I've had
through most of my life, becauseI don't know if you knew this,
most of your life, most of mylife, well, like 10 years, okay,
(00:50):
that's not most of my life. Athird of your life will be
exact, sorry. But here's thedeal. I went to college to be an
entrepreneurship major. Okay, sograduated with that. And I was
like, I'm gonna be anentrepreneur. I was like, maybe
one day I'll work for a SiliconValley Tech company. God is
good. But I then coming out ofcollege couldn't find a job
(01:12):
immediately. Because, you know,I was so specific, and it needs
to be a startup or bust. Right,that I ended up working for a
ministry. Okay. I did that for ayear, it was a touring traveling
ministry. Wow. So I did that.
And then my mindset completelyswitched to thinking coming out
of ministry, I actually can't doanything that's not ministry,
(01:33):
because I felt if I was anentrepreneur, that wouldn't be
serving God. Like I had justcompletely polarizing thoughts
of like, I'm gonna be anentrepreneur. And I'm like,
wait, but Jesus. And it wasn'tuntil overflow, that I realized
there's a way to marry bothentrepreneurship and doing it
for the Kingdom. I love that.
(01:56):
And I feel like I'm not alone inthe struggle. Sure. Because so
many people who areentrepreneurial minded, or even
just business people arestruggling to figure out how can
I actually serve God? Yeah,through my work. What? What's
your experience been with memore about this traveling
ministry? I'm intrigued. This isso cool. I don't think we dived
into this. So let's do it live.
(02:18):
I did this for a whole year. Andit was by bus. So it wasn't like
we were flying. We were by bus.
12 people going to middleschools, churches, pregnancy
centers, just kind of doing thiswhole purity documents. Yeah, it
was a Nickelodeon style tourfocused around biblical
abstinence. Love it. Yeah. Itwas a wild time. So it was one
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of the one year was plenty.
Yeah, it was a lifetime. It wasit was at shows in one year's
time. Whatwas your favorite parts of that?
Speaking, I liked the the energyfrom middle schoolers at that
point. Yes. But it wasdefinitely a weird dynamic,
because they idolize you. Like,there are people asking me for
(03:02):
my autograph, right. And I waslike, This is bizarre, like you
don't know me, you never willknow that. You only know my
first name, you know. And it wasjust a weird thing, because I
wanted to come alongside thiskids. But the one thing that's
hard when you're part of a tourlike that is you are the change
agent. And then you bounce out.
And all of it is put oneverybody else that brought you
(03:25):
in to actually maintain thegroundwork that you laid.
Right, right. Right. Right. So Ithink that was these pair of
ministries. It kind of has thatvibe, right? You think of young
life you think, you know, aCampus Crusade? Yeah. They are a
ministry for you in a season ofyour life. Yes. But then I think
there needs to be better bridgesbetween those pair ministries in
(03:47):
the local church. Definitely. Ican really journey with you and
be your community for life.
Definitely. It honestly gave mea bizarre lens in which I saw
ministry through Yeah, because Ionly saw monumental movement
happen. And no actual slow,dedicated growth that happens in
true discipleship. Interesting.
And so it was a really weirdcontext. Yeah, I felt like
(04:12):
because you entered ministry inthis weird, but you know,
there's probably a lot of beautyin that context. And you find
yourself disoriented, post thatcontext, because you still have
this desire to be anentrepreneur. Yeah. But you
thought that was at odds withserving God. You thought that
was at odds with ministry? Yes.
Interesting. What made youbelieve that?
(04:32):
I think because reading theBible growing up, you see
ministry as solely giving upeverything. Yeah. That you have.
Yeah. And so holding on toanything almost seems
antithetical rightto that. Yeah. So you know, the
passages around denyingyourself. Yeah. The cost may be
carried across. Yeah. And soalmost the Christian journey is
(04:55):
met with what are yousacrificing? What are you
willing to give up? Yeah. And ifthere's not a level of how much
you've sacrificed that issustaining your Christian walk,
then maybe you're puttingyourself before the cause. Or
before the gospel. Yes. 100Yeah, that's, that's really,
really interesting. And then Iwould assume that part of it is
(05:17):
exposure to, right. It's, hey,who in my life do I look up to?
That's in ministry? Yeah. Andwhen I consider them
entrepreneurs,yeah. And you know, and that was
the thing, this is 2013 2014. SoJudah Smith, is becoming big
around this time. And that'sreally the only person who would
you have a context for withsomeone who is speaking and
(05:38):
doing ministry, because a lot ofit was not on social media, the
way that it obviously is. 10years later. Sure,
sure. Okay, so So lack ofexposure, lack of maybe even
biblical permission around whatit looks like for
entrepreneurship in the Bible.
Yeah, in the biblical context.
(05:58):
And so that's interesting,right? I think that the Bible
actually shows a lot ofentrepreneurship. within it. We
have this passage Zechariah thatPastor Mike chi dropped the bomb
of this one time that we weretalking to him actually, let's
read it here. Zechariah 610through 13. Take the exiles,
hell die Toby jaw, enter theDaya who have arrived from
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Babylon and go the same day tothe house of Josiah, the son of
Zephaniah, take from them silverand gold and make a crown and
set it on the head of Joshua,the son, the high priest and say
to him, Thus says the Lord ofhosts, by the way, we should
talk like that on this podcastthus says, the Lord of hosts is
ESV version to behold, the manwhose name is the branch capital
(06:46):
B. For he shall branch out lookat that wordplay right there
branch out from his place, andhe shall build the temple of the
Lord. This is an entrepreneurialendeavor, endeavor, by the way,
it is He Who shall build thetemple of the Lord, and shall
bear royal honor as well, andshall sit and rule on his throne
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and there shall be a priest onhis throne and the counts of
peace shall be between them boththere, there was harmony, there
was peace in Joshua exhibitingboth the priestly calling and
the kingly calling, wow. Right.
Yeah, that you're you're callingif you're a pastor listening to
this does not need to berestricted to the bounds of
(07:27):
ministry that we put onourselves sometimes, or the
vacation, maybe of ministry,because this is an example,
biblically of what it can looklike to have an anointing both
as a priest and as a king. Kingsand Priests are themes within
the Bible. And usually it'ssplit. Usually it's you have the
priests, you have the pastor,that partners with the king or
(07:50):
the entrepreneur. This is anexample where it comes together.
Yeah, this is something that Ifeel like I am pulled towards is
that I have high conviction inthe importance of vocational
ministry and I still sit in theseat of executive pastor even
though I don't get paid by thechurch, I still sit in that seat
and want to serve in that seatand enthusiastic about remaining
(08:10):
in that seat at the same time.
As executive pastor, I also havea calling I know as an
entrepreneur, right? I don'tthink that those things are at
odds. Paul, the apostle himselfwas one of the most prolific
preachers writers of the gospel.
He wrote two thirds of thegospel, but the Bible says he
(08:32):
was also a tentmaker. Jesus wasa rabbi and a carpenter. There
was roles there wasentrepreneurial endeavors there
what think of that, like, yeah,like Jesus was a general
contractor, like he wasremodeling homes, like this guy
was less times coming up inhouses, right? You know, he was
(08:52):
had passive income, probablythrough Airbnb, you know, saying
like, this is this is what theBible is saying. Yeah. So So
biblically, maybe we're just nottalking about it enough.
Biblically, entrepreneurship isall over the Bible. Yeah, the
venture capitalists of that daywere women that funded the
ministry of Jesus, there wasthere was entrepreneurship all
(09:15):
over the Bible. Yeah. I thinkoutside of knowing that
entrepreneurship is in theBible. People need to be exposed
to what it can look like, in thehere and now. Yeah, right.
People need to be exposed toplaces like overflow. I'm so
blessed by even just yourtestimony of how it's kind of
come all full circle. Youmajored in entrepreneurship. Now
you're working for a company.
(09:38):
That's an entrepreneurialcompany. We are a software
startup company based in theSilicon Valley. You can't get
more startup entrepreneurshipright then that you feel like
you're in your calling. Yeah.
And that's beautiful. I I fullybelieve I have a conviction that
overflow is a for profitbusiness. We have a fiduciary
responsibility to ourshareholders. to our
(09:59):
stakeholders, but I do believeit can be viewed as a ministry
as well. I absolutely believethat I was talking to one of our
team members who used to sit inthe seat of a lead pastor, and
for various circumstances havehad to off board off that seat
for no other reason, other thansome family decisions that they
had to make, as well as a polland a call into the marketplace,
(10:23):
as well. So nothing bad. Yeah,but everything good in terms of
running towards her calling, andshe feels so fulfilled in the
seat that she now sits in atoverflow, because she's serving
pastors. See, she's serving thelocal church. She's building up
the kingdom of God from adifferent vantage point. Yeah,
actually, you know, what'sinteresting is that the Bible
(10:44):
says that the work of theministry is actually not to be
done by pastors. Pastors equipthe body. Pastors equip people
in the church to do the work ofthe ministry. Yeah. So I would
actually go as far to say isthat people in the marketplace,
people that are entrepreneurs,people that are building
companies, they are closer tothe work of the ministry than
(11:08):
even where pastors sit from. Andthat's not to say one is better
than the other. That's to saythere is a beautiful partnership
between ministry andentrepreneurship actually, there
is a beautiful oneness, where asan entrepreneur, you are a
minister, you are a minister inthe places in the spaces that
you are called to. You are. Solike the Spirit of God. So
(11:33):
entrepreneurship is this iscreate value on this planet that
did not yet exist. What was oneof the first things that God
did? He created something intothe void. Let there be no void?
Yeah. You created Earth. Hesaid, heavens, cool. My home is
(11:53):
cool. Wow, we got go streets.
This is dope. Yeah. But I wantto create something that does
not yet exist. Yeah. That is thedefinition of entrepreneurship.
Can we can we, you know, likelanguage we've talked about this
before, was not primarily forcommunication was not primarily
(12:17):
for podcasts, was not primarilyfor our platforms and our
platitudes. Communicate, ourlanguage was primarily at first
for creation, let there belight, was the first words was
the first language that thisworld ever had. And what did it
do? It didn't communicate tosomething, it created something.
I think that's a really powerfulthought. Because it it gives you
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more confidence when you'resomeone who's creative, because
we are created to create Yes.
And so reframing that to thinkthrough Wait, no, this is
actually a calling, if I'mcreating something that's a
calling, and I'm living out ofthat calling, just by creating
something. Yes, yes. That'samazing.
You're creative. You're acreator. How have you seen that
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out work in different contextsin your life? And how has that
now felt more like ministry?
Have you given yourselfpermission to contextualize it
as ministry?
Yeah, I think that it comes backto figuring out, why am I doing
this? Good? Because if the Whyisn't there, it's like, I'm
turning into Simon Sinek. rightbefore your very eyes, if the
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Why isn't there, and it's notrooted in what you feel God has
called you to? And it's not justoh, I feel God's calling me to
this. Why do you feel God'scalling you to this? What is it
ultimately pointing back to goodbecause it should be him? And so
I think once I've lasered in, onif this Why is not of God, for
instance, you know that I lovethe topic of relational wealth.
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And ultimately, we'rerelationally broke as a society.
Sure, but the ultimate, richestrelationship you can have on
this earth is with the one whois not on Earth. And that's the
Jesus. Yeah. And so that's whateverything is stemming back to.
And that's why I love talkingabout that. And so, yeah, I
mean, I think it's hard becausewe live in a broken world.
(14:05):
Right. And so there can be somany distractions. But I think
when I this is a reason why Ilike Disney as well. Yeah, it's
because I feel like this is, tome, it's a piece of heaven on
earth. Becauseno, my wife would agree. But
if we are created in order tocreate, and someone has created
(14:27):
a place that wants to bringfamilies together, sure, in
United Front, and has unlocked alevel of imagination, that is
not able to be replicated yet. Ithink that is heaven, like.
Sure. And so, so I love thinkingcreatively about that. But it
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definitely took me a long timeto get there. Because then you
have this whole thing, right ofbeing entrepreneurs. People
think one, there's there's onlytwo types of entrepreneurs.
You're either loaded or you arebroke? There is no like middle
ground of like, I make a stableincome. Right, you know,
especially gig economy worker.
Exactly.
(15:09):
So there's a big tension withsaying you're an entrepreneur as
well, because it's a loaded.
Comment.
So loaded comment. I like whatyou said about intention. I like
what you said about why, rightthere is this thing, it's Simon
Sinek. Ask where ask yourselfout, encourage everybody, ask
yourself seven why's keep askingyourself, why for seven times
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until you get to the root? Ilove that, you know, I want to
want to be on the front ofForbes. Why? Because I want to
make a lot of money. Why?
Because I want to, I want peopleto see, you know, the things
that I've achieved. Why? Becauseyou know, people seeing the
things that I've achieved wouldgive me the appropriate
recognition. Okay, why? Becausepeople giving me the appropriate
(15:52):
recognition that I deserve, willmake me feel loved. Okay. So
what if I told you that there isa God in heaven that created
you? And there was nothing thatyou could do for him to love you
more? And there was nothing thatyou could do for him to love you
less? Yeah. How would thatactually flip your intention?
(16:13):
How would that actually flipyour why? Because all of a
sudden, this business that Ihave this entrepreneurial
endeavor that I have, I don'tneed it to feel loved. Because
I'm already loved. Yeah. But itneeds me. Wow, this, this
marriage that I got into, Idon't need it to feel loved.
(16:37):
Because I'm already loved. ButI'm going to get married because
she needs me and thispartnership. This family, these
kids, and this will clarify alot of things for for young
families, these kids, I'm notusing it as a prop, because I
need them to feel loved. No, I'malready loved. I am wanting to
(16:59):
start this family because theyneed me. And all of a sudden,
now you come into a context ofentrepreneurship or whatever you
put your hand to. And you startlooking at it through the lens
of how do I serve? How can Iserve? How can I come alongside?
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How can I partner? What is theuniversal call of God, to love
God with all our heart, soul andmind? And to love your neighbor
as yourself? I mean, that's sosimple, Christian 101. But
sometimes we need a reminderthat this is the universal call.
But then there's a specificcall. There's a specific call
based on your desires, yourexpertise, your nature, what
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you're good at your skills.
Yeah, right. Yeah, your skillscan help you frame what your
specific call is within thatuniversal call. And here is a
newsflash that you cannot get itwrong. As long as you're doing
the ways of God, the will of Goddoesn't have to be super
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mysterious, right? A lot ofpeople like get stressed out
about I'm going to make thewrong decision. You can't.
Because if you're doing it inthe ways of God, you are
actually in as well. And so ifyou're entrepreneur, that's
permission, that's freeing, justdo something. Yeah. Just create
something, just make something.
And God will be in it.
Yeah. You know why? Because youlive in Silicon Valley context,
(18:27):
which is very different. I thinkwe can admit that very different
than most churches in America.
Yeah. Why do you think that mostchurches have trouble
understanding how to empowerentrepreneurs in the church?
Intimidation, fear, right? What?
There's a lot of differentdynamics that I've seen, and it
varies per community and percontext, right? I think I've
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seen relational dynamics wherethere's people in vocational
ministry that feel like becausethey don't speak the language of
business, or they don't speakthe language of
entrepreneurship, that theycan't serve these people maybe
in a way, that's effective. Andthat can be furthest from the
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truth. Yeah, right. People don'tgo to church, people don't seek
a pastor to get business advice.
Necessarily, maybe they can. Butthat's not why they're going to
church. Yeah, they're going tochurch because they want to
connect to God. They want to beguided by God's principles in
their life. And so if you dothat, to the best of your
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ability, you will speak thelanguage of an entrepreneur.
Actually, you know what thelanguage of an entrepreneur is,
more than knowing businesslingo, its vision. Habakkuk
tells us without vision, thepeople perish. That verse goes
really well with entrepreneurs.
Entrepreneurs love vision, likethey love vision, they they're
all for vision and business planthat that that is goals that is
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OKRs. That's objectives, keyresults. That's KPIs you're
speaking the language or Ready,you don't even need to know,
these acronyms. They are allabout vision. So if they go into
your church, and there is novision being spoken, or the
vision of the church is smallerthan the vision that they have
for their own life, it's goingto be hard for them to connect.
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And so I do think that incertain dynamics, there is this
fear and intimidation aspect toit. And I would say that we're
blessed to be pastoring in theSilicon Valley, and understand
that we have the greatestvision. I mean, we're in the
location of literally across thestreet is Google, up the street
(20:37):
is meta slash Facebook down thestreet is apple. We're in the
land of some of the titans inthe industry. And I have the all
the confidence and the assurancein the world that we have a
bigger vision than them. Youknow, Google, Apple, Facebook,
collectively serve four or 5billion people on this planet.
The Great Commission is greaterthan that. Go into all the
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world. Yeah. Right. Go until allthe way that's a great
commission and make disciples.
Yeah. That's powerful. Also, Iwas just thinking about, if you
haven't become part of overflowinsider, yet, yes, you need to,
because you actually had anincredible conversation with
Lita Ming. Oh, come on, Lee,about entrepreneurs, and how to
(21:23):
steward and talk the language ofthis with your high impact
owners. Yeah. Sooverflow.co/insider? Yeah, if
you have not joined yet, this isan exclusive. What are you doing
just for you on there, and it'sfree. And it's free? Best part
about that? Come on, you know, Iheard this message from Steven
Chandler a couple years ago.
Yeah. And he was talking abouthow he's learned to talk to
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high, high impact donors, butalso really, hyper specific,
career driven people in hischurch. So for instance,
lawyers, interesting, someonecame up to him who was on the
church staff, and they said,Steven, you're not gonna believe
this. We just got Billy Bob Joe,obviously, don't know his name,
(22:05):
the lawyer, Esquire, whatever.
They said, We just got him tojoin the parking team. And he
was like, okay, and they'relike, why aren't you excited
about that? Look, a servantheart. And he made this profound
statement. He said, Why are wenot having him? Be part of legal
(22:28):
on our team? Like if his giftsare there? Why are we saying you
need to be stripped of thosegifts? And use what's put in a
box here in this church? Right?
What is your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I do think that we'relimited some times, right? There
is a formula to church in themodern church, where it's these
next steps. Yes, these programs.
And I'm actually all for that Ilove next steps. I love
(22:52):
progressions, I love programs, Ido think that God works through
systems, that systems facilitatethe vision. And so I am 1,000%,
all about that, at the sametime. Systems are not in
replacement of the Spiritsystems are not in replacement
of common sense. Right? Yeah.
(23:13):
And so if you do have somebodythat is clever, in the things of
legal clever in things ofbusiness, clever in the things
of entrepreneurship, and you areaiming to accomplish something
specific within your church, whynot leverage them? Yeah, for the
purposes of that, instead ofjust kind of, because of your
system, having them adhere to avery specific path. Yeah, that
(23:35):
might be limited to a parkinglot team in saying that, I'm all
for lawyers, venture capitalist,doing kids check in definitely
doing parking lot team, if theyfeel called to that. I do think
especially in our context, inthe Silicon Valley in this
church, that I've beenprivileged to be able to serve
that I have actually seen peoplefind a ton of fulfilment a ton
(23:57):
of freedom, to get out of theirday to day, and to serve in a
context that is much differentfrom what they do from Monday
through Friday, or sometimeseven Saturday. Sure. And so it's
a case by case basis. Again, Idon't think there's a formula or
a rule of law. But I will saythat sometimes we get so buried
in our processes in our systemsthat we forget to see the person
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and how we can best utilize thatperson. Our systems should be
there to serve people, not sothat it can just serve
ourselves,ultimately, really well said.
So, if someone's listening tothis, and they're a pastor of a
church, and they're like,actually, I've never thought
about this group of peoplebefore. How what are some good
first steps they can take tolearn how to come alongside
(24:42):
entrepreneurs and businesspeople in their church?
Yeah, I would say if you don'thave some sort of ministry, in
different churches, it's calledKingdom builders in different
churches is called Legacy team.
We talk about that in differentpodcast episodes. We should
probably actually talk aboutthat more as it's heading into
urine giving season. For formany, many churches, capital
(25:05):
campaigns building campaigns, Iwould highly encourage you to
have a context in which you cantalk about this type of stuff.
We call it at our church Kingdombuilders, Kingdom builders is
the financial engine room ofvive church, it is so mission
critical to what we do in ourchurch, we know that God gives
(25:25):
vision to pastors, but he allowsKingdom builders to provide the
resources to accelerate thatvision. And so very simply put,
there is a structure and there'sa system and there's a flow, and
there's a cadence, and there's arhythm in which we communicate
and develop our kingdombuilders, so that we can
continue to equip them andcontinue to point them towards
(25:46):
the mission that specificallyvive church has in the context
of the kingdom of God. And sowhat that looks like, in
practicality is that our kingdombuilders, they meet once a
quarter, at a kingdom buildersbreakfast. It's a Saturday
morning, where we do somethingvery simple, but very, very
powerful. We come together overfood come on somebody that's
(26:08):
anointed already. Yeah, we comeover food. And what we do is we
first celebrate all God did thepast quarter, right? We
facilitate community, we letpeople cross connect in these
roundtable kind of breakfastsettings. Because some of these
people they can't make it toevery Sunday, some of these
people are not yet serving on aSunday. So this is their moment
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to find their tribe to find likeminded people that are
furthering the church alongsidethem. And then we we give people
an inside scoop. We give peopleclear communication, exclusive
communication that theyotherwise wouldn't have not had,
if they weren't part of thiskingdom builders crew. And so
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our pastor, what he does isafter celebrating everything
that God did, he pointseverybody to what God is about
to do the next quarter. And heinvites people to pray to
financially partner, and tofigure out ways that they can
leverage their skill sets. Andthey can figure out ways that
they can leverage their networkto see the vision fulfilled,
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whether it's a building, we'regoing after a new campus, we're
about to plant, an outreachcenter, and outpost that we want
to do. Just recently, we wereone of the first responders to
the Maui fires. And we leveragedpeople within our kingdom
builders network to be able tonot only give, but to have
resources deployed on the groundin Maui. And so this can be a
(27:35):
catalytic community that youneed to start if you haven't
started already, and we'd loveto talk to you about that here.
I'd overflow.
Wow. Yeah, I love this. I thinkthis has been really encouraging
for former me. And for a lot ofnew units, correct? Yes. The
Salta Paul, conversion hashappened here. But you know what
(27:56):
I was thinking just to close on.
That whole concept of Kingdombuilders and how you lay that
out is also really good prayer.
Starting with thankfulness andgratitude. Casting, the vision
is also dreaming, which is aform of praying, and also saying
like, here's what we'rebelieving for, but also God,
what is in my hands that I canuse right now. Good. So I think
(28:17):
that's awesome format. So, forall of you, entrepreneurs and
businesspeople out here, beencouraged because we love you.
And question the next episode.
Let's go. Thanks so much forlistening to the give it up
podcast if you want to receiveeven more insights on church
innovation, culture, and givingnow you can sign up for free to
be an overflow insider, whereyou'll receive exclusive content
(28:39):
discounts direct access to VanceRoush to get your questions
answered, and also invite onlyaccess to our monthly
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(29:02):
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maximum value to even morechurch leaders. Thanks so much.
We'll see you next time.
Jesus was a rabbi and a carpenter. There was roles there
(00:05):
was entrepreneurial endeavors.
Maybe we're just not talkingabout it enough. Biblically,
entrepreneurship is all over theBible. The venture capitalists
of that day were women thatfunded the ministry of Jesus.
People need to be exposed towhat it can look like in the
here and now.
A pastor turn tech leader and amillennial churchgoer, exploring
(00:27):
the intersection of technology,culture and faith, equipping you
with innovative strategies tosupport you as you live out your
calling leader churches withconfidence to step into the
future together. This is thegive it up podcast. So Vance,
yes, I want to tell you aboutthe struggle that I've had
through most of my life, becauseI don't know if you knew this,
most of your life, most of mylife, well, like 10 years, okay,
(00:50):
that's not most of my life. Athird of your life will be
exact, sorry. But here's thedeal. I went to college to be an
entrepreneurship major. Okay, sograduated with that. And I was
like, I'm gonna be anentrepreneur. I was like, maybe
one day I'll work for a SiliconValley Tech company. God is
good. But I then coming out ofcollege couldn't find a job
(01:12):
immediately. Because, you know,I was so specific, and it needs
to be a startup or bust. Right,that I ended up working for a
ministry. Okay. I did that for ayear, it was a touring traveling
ministry. Wow. So I did that.
And then my mindset completelyswitched to thinking coming out
of ministry, I actually can't doanything that's not ministry,
(01:33):
because I felt if I was anentrepreneur, that wouldn't be
serving God. Like I had justcompletely polarizing thoughts
of like, I'm gonna be anentrepreneur. And I'm like,
wait, but Jesus. And it wasn'tuntil overflow, that I realized
there's a way to marry bothentrepreneurship and doing it
for the Kingdom. I love that.
(01:56):
And I feel like I'm not alone inthe struggle. Sure. Because so
many people who areentrepreneurial minded, or even
just business people arestruggling to figure out how can
I actually serve God? Yeah,through my work. What? What's
your experience been with memore about this traveling
ministry? I'm intrigued. This isso cool. I don't think we dived
into this. So let's do it live.
(02:18):
I did this for a whole year. Andit was by bus. So it wasn't like
we were flying. We were by bus.
12 people going to middleschools, churches, pregnancy
centers, just kind of doing thiswhole purity documents. Yeah, it
was a Nickelodeon style tourfocused around biblical
abstinence. Love it. Yeah. Itwas a wild time. So it was one
(02:38):
of the one year was plenty.
Yeah, it was a lifetime. It wasit was at shows in one year's
time. Whatwas your favorite parts of that?
Speaking, I liked the the energyfrom middle schoolers at that
point. Yes. But it wasdefinitely a weird dynamic,
because they idolize you. Like,there are people asking me for
(03:02):
my autograph, right. And I waslike, This is bizarre, like you
don't know me, you never willknow that. You only know my
first name, you know. And it wasjust a weird thing, because I
wanted to come alongside thiskids. But the one thing that's
hard when you're part of a tourlike that is you are the change
agent. And then you bounce out.
And all of it is put oneverybody else that brought you
(03:25):
in to actually maintain thegroundwork that you laid.
Right, right. Right. Right. So Ithink that was these pair of
ministries. It kind of has thatvibe, right? You think of young
life you think, you know, aCampus Crusade? Yeah. They are a
ministry for you in a season ofyour life. Yes. But then I think
there needs to be better bridgesbetween those pair ministries in
(03:47):
the local church. Definitely. Ican really journey with you and
be your community for life.
Definitely. It honestly gave mea bizarre lens in which I saw
ministry through Yeah, because Ionly saw monumental movement
happen. And no actual slow,dedicated growth that happens in
true discipleship. Interesting.
And so it was a really weirdcontext. Yeah, I felt like
(04:12):
because you entered ministry inthis weird, but you know,
there's probably a lot of beautyin that context. And you find
yourself disoriented, post thatcontext, because you still have
this desire to be anentrepreneur. Yeah. But you
thought that was at odds withserving God. You thought that
was at odds with ministry? Yes.
Interesting. What made youbelieve that?
(04:32):
I think because reading theBible growing up, you see
ministry as solely giving upeverything. Yeah. That you have.
Yeah. And so holding on toanything almost seems
antithetical rightto that. Yeah. So you know, the
passages around denyingyourself. Yeah. The cost may be
carried across. Yeah. And soalmost the Christian journey is
(04:55):
met with what are yousacrificing? What are you
willing to give up? Yeah. And ifthere's not a level of how much
you've sacrificed that issustaining your Christian walk,
then maybe you're puttingyourself before the cause. Or
before the gospel. Yes. 100Yeah, that's, that's really,
really interesting. And then Iwould assume that part of it is
(05:17):
exposure to, right. It's, hey,who in my life do I look up to?
That's in ministry? Yeah. Andwhen I consider them
entrepreneurs,yeah. And you know, and that was
the thing, this is 2013 2014. SoJudah Smith, is becoming big
around this time. And that'sreally the only person who would
you have a context for withsomeone who is speaking and
(05:38):
doing ministry, because a lot ofit was not on social media, the
way that it obviously is. 10years later. Sure,
sure. Okay, so So lack ofexposure, lack of maybe even
biblical permission around whatit looks like for
entrepreneurship in the Bible.
Yeah, in the biblical context.
(05:58):
And so that's interesting,right? I think that the Bible
actually shows a lot ofentrepreneurship. within it. We
have this passage Zechariah thatPastor Mike chi dropped the bomb
of this one time that we weretalking to him actually, let's
read it here. Zechariah 610through 13. Take the exiles,
hell die Toby jaw, enter theDaya who have arrived from
(06:21):
Babylon and go the same day tothe house of Josiah, the son of
Zephaniah, take from them silverand gold and make a crown and
set it on the head of Joshua,the son, the high priest and say
to him, Thus says the Lord ofhosts, by the way, we should
talk like that on this podcastthus says, the Lord of hosts is
ESV version to behold, the manwhose name is the branch capital
(06:46):
B. For he shall branch out lookat that wordplay right there
branch out from his place, andhe shall build the temple of the
Lord. This is an entrepreneurialendeavor, endeavor, by the way,
it is He Who shall build thetemple of the Lord, and shall
bear royal honor as well, andshall sit and rule on his throne
(07:06):
and there shall be a priest onhis throne and the counts of
peace shall be between them boththere, there was harmony, there
was peace in Joshua exhibitingboth the priestly calling and
the kingly calling, wow. Right.
Yeah, that you're you're callingif you're a pastor listening to
this does not need to berestricted to the bounds of
(07:27):
ministry that we put onourselves sometimes, or the
vacation, maybe of ministry,because this is an example,
biblically of what it can looklike to have an anointing both
as a priest and as a king. Kingsand Priests are themes within
the Bible. And usually it'ssplit. Usually it's you have the
priests, you have the pastor,that partners with the king or
(07:50):
the entrepreneur. This is anexample where it comes together.
Yeah, this is something that Ifeel like I am pulled towards is
that I have high conviction inthe importance of vocational
ministry and I still sit in theseat of executive pastor even
though I don't get paid by thechurch, I still sit in that seat
and want to serve in that seatand enthusiastic about remaining
(08:10):
in that seat at the same time.
As executive pastor, I also havea calling I know as an
entrepreneur, right? I don'tthink that those things are at
odds. Paul, the apostle himselfwas one of the most prolific
preachers writers of the gospel.
He wrote two thirds of thegospel, but the Bible says he
(08:32):
was also a tentmaker. Jesus wasa rabbi and a carpenter. There
was roles there wasentrepreneurial endeavors there
what think of that, like, yeah,like Jesus was a general
contractor, like he wasremodeling homes, like this guy
was less times coming up inhouses, right? You know, he was
(08:52):
had passive income, probablythrough Airbnb, you know, saying
like, this is this is what theBible is saying. Yeah. So So
biblically, maybe we're just nottalking about it enough.
Biblically, entrepreneurship isall over the Bible. Yeah, the
venture capitalists of that daywere women that funded the
ministry of Jesus, there wasthere was entrepreneurship all
(09:15):
over the Bible. Yeah. I thinkoutside of knowing that
entrepreneurship is in theBible. People need to be exposed
to what it can look like, in thehere and now. Yeah, right.
People need to be exposed toplaces like overflow. I'm so
blessed by even just yourtestimony of how it's kind of
come all full circle. Youmajored in entrepreneurship. Now
you're working for a company.
(09:38):
That's an entrepreneurialcompany. We are a software
startup company based in theSilicon Valley. You can't get
more startup entrepreneurshipright then that you feel like
you're in your calling. Yeah.
And that's beautiful. I I fullybelieve I have a conviction that
overflow is a for profitbusiness. We have a fiduciary
responsibility to ourshareholders. to our
(09:59):
stakeholders, but I do believeit can be viewed as a ministry
as well. I absolutely believethat I was talking to one of our
team members who used to sit inthe seat of a lead pastor, and
for various circumstances havehad to off board off that seat
for no other reason, other thansome family decisions that they
had to make, as well as a polland a call into the marketplace,
(10:23):
as well. So nothing bad. Yeah,but everything good in terms of
running towards her calling, andshe feels so fulfilled in the
seat that she now sits in atoverflow, because she's serving
pastors. See, she's serving thelocal church. She's building up
the kingdom of God from adifferent vantage point. Yeah,
actually, you know, what'sinteresting is that the Bible
(10:44):
says that the work of theministry is actually not to be
done by pastors. Pastors equipthe body. Pastors equip people
in the church to do the work ofthe ministry. Yeah. So I would
actually go as far to say isthat people in the marketplace,
people that are entrepreneurs,people that are building
companies, they are closer tothe work of the ministry than
(11:08):
even where pastors sit from. Andthat's not to say one is better
than the other. That's to saythere is a beautiful partnership
between ministry andentrepreneurship actually, there
is a beautiful oneness, where asan entrepreneur, you are a
minister, you are a minister inthe places in the spaces that
you are called to. You are. Solike the Spirit of God. So
(11:33):
entrepreneurship is this iscreate value on this planet that
did not yet exist. What was oneof the first things that God
did? He created something intothe void. Let there be no void?
Yeah. You created Earth. Hesaid, heavens, cool. My home is
(11:53):
cool. Wow, we got go streets.
This is dope. Yeah. But I wantto create something that does
not yet exist. Yeah. That is thedefinition of entrepreneurship.
Can we can we, you know, likelanguage we've talked about this
before, was not primarily forcommunication was not primarily
(12:17):
for podcasts, was not primarilyfor our platforms and our
platitudes. Communicate, ourlanguage was primarily at first
for creation, let there belight, was the first words was
the first language that thisworld ever had. And what did it
do? It didn't communicate tosomething, it created something.
I think that's a really powerfulthought. Because it it gives you
(12:39):
more confidence when you'resomeone who's creative, because
we are created to create Yes.
And so reframing that to thinkthrough Wait, no, this is
actually a calling, if I'mcreating something that's a
calling, and I'm living out ofthat calling, just by creating
something. Yes, yes. That'samazing.
You're creative. You're acreator. How have you seen that
(13:01):
out work in different contextsin your life? And how has that
now felt more like ministry?
Have you given yourselfpermission to contextualize it
as ministry?
Yeah, I think that it comes backto figuring out, why am I doing
this? Good? Because if the Whyisn't there, it's like, I'm
turning into Simon Sinek. rightbefore your very eyes, if the
(13:23):
Why isn't there, and it's notrooted in what you feel God has
called you to? And it's not justoh, I feel God's calling me to
this. Why do you feel God'scalling you to this? What is it
ultimately pointing back to goodbecause it should be him? And so
I think once I've lasered in, onif this Why is not of God, for
instance, you know that I lovethe topic of relational wealth.
(13:44):
And ultimately, we'rerelationally broke as a society.
Sure, but the ultimate, richestrelationship you can have on
this earth is with the one whois not on Earth. And that's the
Jesus. Yeah. And so that's whateverything is stemming back to.
And that's why I love talkingabout that. And so, yeah, I
mean, I think it's hard becausewe live in a broken world.
(14:05):
Right. And so there can be somany distractions. But I think
when I this is a reason why Ilike Disney as well. Yeah, it's
because I feel like this is, tome, it's a piece of heaven on
earth. Becauseno, my wife would agree. But
if we are created in order tocreate, and someone has created
(14:27):
a place that wants to bringfamilies together, sure, in
United Front, and has unlocked alevel of imagination, that is
not able to be replicated yet. Ithink that is heaven, like.
Sure. And so, so I love thinkingcreatively about that. But it
(14:47):
definitely took me a long timeto get there. Because then you
have this whole thing, right ofbeing entrepreneurs. People
think one, there's there's onlytwo types of entrepreneurs.
You're either loaded or you arebroke? There is no like middle
ground of like, I make a stableincome. Right, you know,
especially gig economy worker.
Exactly.
(15:09):
So there's a big tension withsaying you're an entrepreneur as
well, because it's a loaded.
Comment.
So loaded comment. I like whatyou said about intention. I like
what you said about why, rightthere is this thing, it's Simon
Sinek. Ask where ask yourselfout, encourage everybody, ask
yourself seven why's keep askingyourself, why for seven times
(15:29):
until you get to the root? Ilove that, you know, I want to
want to be on the front ofForbes. Why? Because I want to
make a lot of money. Why?
Because I want to, I want peopleto see, you know, the things
that I've achieved. Why? Becauseyou know, people seeing the
things that I've achieved wouldgive me the appropriate
recognition. Okay, why? Becausepeople giving me the appropriate
(15:52):
recognition that I deserve, willmake me feel loved. Okay. So
what if I told you that there isa God in heaven that created
you? And there was nothing thatyou could do for him to love you
more? And there was nothing thatyou could do for him to love you
less? Yeah. How would thatactually flip your intention?
(16:13):
How would that actually flipyour why? Because all of a
sudden, this business that Ihave this entrepreneurial
endeavor that I have, I don'tneed it to feel loved. Because
I'm already loved. Yeah. But itneeds me. Wow, this, this
marriage that I got into, Idon't need it to feel loved.
(16:37):
Because I'm already loved. ButI'm going to get married because
she needs me and thispartnership. This family, these
kids, and this will clarify alot of things for for young
families, these kids, I'm notusing it as a prop, because I
need them to feel loved. No, I'malready loved. I am wanting to
(16:59):
start this family because theyneed me. And all of a sudden,
now you come into a context ofentrepreneurship or whatever you
put your hand to. And you startlooking at it through the lens
of how do I serve? How can Iserve? How can I come alongside?
(17:19):
How can I partner? What is theuniversal call of God, to love
God with all our heart, soul andmind? And to love your neighbor
as yourself? I mean, that's sosimple, Christian 101. But
sometimes we need a reminderthat this is the universal call.
But then there's a specificcall. There's a specific call
based on your desires, yourexpertise, your nature, what
(17:40):
you're good at your skills.
Yeah, right. Yeah, your skillscan help you frame what your
specific call is within thatuniversal call. And here is a
newsflash that you cannot get itwrong. As long as you're doing
the ways of God, the will of Goddoesn't have to be super
(18:04):
mysterious, right? A lot ofpeople like get stressed out
about I'm going to make thewrong decision. You can't.
Because if you're doing it inthe ways of God, you are
actually in as well. And so ifyou're entrepreneur, that's
permission, that's freeing, justdo something. Yeah. Just create
something, just make something.
And God will be in it.
Yeah. You know why? Because youlive in Silicon Valley context,
(18:27):
which is very different. I thinkwe can admit that very different
than most churches in America.
Yeah. Why do you think that mostchurches have trouble
understanding how to empowerentrepreneurs in the church?
Intimidation, fear, right? What?
There's a lot of differentdynamics that I've seen, and it
varies per community and percontext, right? I think I've
(18:48):
seen relational dynamics wherethere's people in vocational
ministry that feel like becausethey don't speak the language of
business, or they don't speakthe language of
entrepreneurship, that theycan't serve these people maybe
in a way, that's effective. Andthat can be furthest from the
(19:09):
truth. Yeah, right. People don'tgo to church, people don't seek
a pastor to get business advice.
Necessarily, maybe they can. Butthat's not why they're going to
church. Yeah, they're going tochurch because they want to
connect to God. They want to beguided by God's principles in
their life. And so if you dothat, to the best of your
(19:30):
ability, you will speak thelanguage of an entrepreneur.
Actually, you know what thelanguage of an entrepreneur is,
more than knowing businesslingo, its vision. Habakkuk
tells us without vision, thepeople perish. That verse goes
really well with entrepreneurs.
Entrepreneurs love vision, likethey love vision, they they're
all for vision and business planthat that that is goals that is
(19:53):
OKRs. That's objectives, keyresults. That's KPIs you're
speaking the language or Ready,you don't even need to know,
these acronyms. They are allabout vision. So if they go into
your church, and there is novision being spoken, or the
vision of the church is smallerthan the vision that they have
for their own life, it's goingto be hard for them to connect.
(20:14):
And so I do think that incertain dynamics, there is this
fear and intimidation aspect toit. And I would say that we're
blessed to be pastoring in theSilicon Valley, and understand
that we have the greatestvision. I mean, we're in the
location of literally across thestreet is Google, up the street
(20:37):
is meta slash Facebook down thestreet is apple. We're in the
land of some of the titans inthe industry. And I have the all
the confidence and the assurancein the world that we have a
bigger vision than them. Youknow, Google, Apple, Facebook,
collectively serve four or 5billion people on this planet.
The Great Commission is greaterthan that. Go into all the
(21:00):
world. Yeah. Right. Go until allthe way that's a great
commission and make disciples.
Yeah. That's powerful. Also, Iwas just thinking about, if you
haven't become part of overflowinsider, yet, yes, you need to,
because you actually had anincredible conversation with
Lita Ming. Oh, come on, Lee,about entrepreneurs, and how to
(21:23):
steward and talk the language ofthis with your high impact
owners. Yeah. Sooverflow.co/insider? Yeah, if
you have not joined yet, this isan exclusive. What are you doing
just for you on there, and it'sfree. And it's free? Best part
about that? Come on, you know, Iheard this message from Steven
Chandler a couple years ago.
Yeah. And he was talking abouthow he's learned to talk to
(21:43):
high, high impact donors, butalso really, hyper specific,
career driven people in hischurch. So for instance,
lawyers, interesting, someonecame up to him who was on the
church staff, and they said,Steven, you're not gonna believe
this. We just got Billy Bob Joe,obviously, don't know his name,
(22:05):
the lawyer, Esquire, whatever.
They said, We just got him tojoin the parking team. And he
was like, okay, and they'relike, why aren't you excited
about that? Look, a servantheart. And he made this profound
statement. He said, Why are wenot having him? Be part of legal
(22:28):
on our team? Like if his giftsare there? Why are we saying you
need to be stripped of thosegifts? And use what's put in a
box here in this church? Right?
What is your thoughts on that?
Yeah, I do think that we'relimited some times, right? There
is a formula to church in themodern church, where it's these
next steps. Yes, these programs.
And I'm actually all for that Ilove next steps. I love
(22:52):
progressions, I love programs, Ido think that God works through
systems, that systems facilitatethe vision. And so I am 1,000%,
all about that, at the sametime. Systems are not in
replacement of the Spiritsystems are not in replacement
of common sense. Right? Yeah.
(23:13):
And so if you do have somebodythat is clever, in the things of
legal clever in things ofbusiness, clever in the things
of entrepreneurship, and you areaiming to accomplish something
specific within your church, whynot leverage them? Yeah, for the
purposes of that, instead ofjust kind of, because of your
system, having them adhere to avery specific path. Yeah, that
(23:35):
might be limited to a parkinglot team in saying that, I'm all
for lawyers, venture capitalist,doing kids check in definitely
doing parking lot team, if theyfeel called to that. I do think
especially in our context, inthe Silicon Valley in this
church, that I've beenprivileged to be able to serve
that I have actually seen peoplefind a ton of fulfilment a ton
(23:57):
of freedom, to get out of theirday to day, and to serve in a
context that is much differentfrom what they do from Monday
through Friday, or sometimeseven Saturday. Sure. And so it's
a case by case basis. Again, Idon't think there's a formula or
a rule of law. But I will saythat sometimes we get so buried
in our processes in our systemsthat we forget to see the person
(24:20):
and how we can best utilize thatperson. Our systems should be
there to serve people, not sothat it can just serve
ourselves,ultimately, really well said.
So, if someone's listening tothis, and they're a pastor of a
church, and they're like,actually, I've never thought
about this group of peoplebefore. How what are some good
first steps they can take tolearn how to come alongside
(24:42):
entrepreneurs and businesspeople in their church?
Yeah, I would say if you don'thave some sort of ministry, in
different churches, it's calledKingdom builders in different
churches is called Legacy team.
We talk about that in differentpodcast episodes. We should
probably actually talk aboutthat more as it's heading into
urine giving season. For formany, many churches, capital
(25:05):
campaigns building campaigns, Iwould highly encourage you to
have a context in which you cantalk about this type of stuff.
We call it at our church Kingdombuilders, Kingdom builders is
the financial engine room ofvive church, it is so mission
critical to what we do in ourchurch, we know that God gives
(25:25):
vision to pastors, but he allowsKingdom builders to provide the
resources to accelerate thatvision. And so very simply put,
there is a structure and there'sa system and there's a flow, and
there's a cadence, and there's arhythm in which we communicate
and develop our kingdombuilders, so that we can
continue to equip them andcontinue to point them towards
(25:46):
the mission that specificallyvive church has in the context
of the kingdom of God. And sowhat that looks like, in
practicality is that our kingdombuilders, they meet once a
quarter, at a kingdom buildersbreakfast. It's a Saturday
morning, where we do somethingvery simple, but very, very
powerful. We come together overfood come on somebody that's
(26:08):
anointed already. Yeah, we comeover food. And what we do is we
first celebrate all God did thepast quarter, right? We
facilitate community, we letpeople cross connect in these
roundtable kind of breakfastsettings. Because some of these
people they can't make it toevery Sunday, some of these
people are not yet serving on aSunday. So this is their moment
(26:30):
to find their tribe to find likeminded people that are
furthering the church alongsidethem. And then we we give people
an inside scoop. We give peopleclear communication, exclusive
communication that theyotherwise wouldn't have not had,
if they weren't part of thiskingdom builders crew. And so
(26:51):
our pastor, what he does isafter celebrating everything
that God did, he pointseverybody to what God is about
to do the next quarter. And heinvites people to pray to
financially partner, and tofigure out ways that they can
leverage their skill sets. Andthey can figure out ways that
they can leverage their networkto see the vision fulfilled,
(27:14):
whether it's a building, we'regoing after a new campus, we're
about to plant, an outreachcenter, and outpost that we want
to do. Just recently, we wereone of the first responders to
the Maui fires. And we leveragedpeople within our kingdom
builders network to be able tonot only give, but to have
resources deployed on the groundin Maui. And so this can be a
(27:35):
catalytic community that youneed to start if you haven't
started already, and we'd loveto talk to you about that here.
I'd overflow.
Wow. Yeah, I love this. I thinkthis has been really encouraging
for former me. And for a lot ofnew units, correct? Yes. The
Salta Paul, conversion hashappened here. But you know what
(27:56):
I was thinking just to close on.
That whole concept of Kingdombuilders and how you lay that
out is also really good prayer.
Starting with thankfulness andgratitude. Casting, the vision
is also dreaming, which is aform of praying, and also saying
like, here's what we'rebelieving for, but also God,
what is in my hands that I canuse right now. Good. So I think
(28:17):
that's awesome format. So, forall of you, entrepreneurs and
businesspeople out here, beencouraged because we love you.
And question the next episode.
Let's go. Thanks so much forlistening to the give it up
podcast if you want to receiveeven more insights on church
innovation, culture, and givingnow you can sign up for free to
be an overflow insider, whereyou'll receive exclusive content
(28:39):
discounts direct access to VanceRoush to get your questions
answered, and also invite onlyaccess to our monthly
fundraising leadership forums,head to overflow.co backslash
insider, or just click the linkin our bio to sign up for free
today. In order to get thispodcast in the ears of even more
church leaders. Could you pleasesubscribe and leave a review for
(29:02):
the show? This tells the podcastplayers what people are enjoying
and want to hear more of and weare adamant about providing
maximum value to even morechurch leaders. Thanks so much.
We'll see you next time.
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