May 14, 2025 • 43 mins
This week on Givers, Doers, & Thinkers, Jeremy is joined by one of America’s foremost thinkers on philanthropy, Indiana University’s Les Lenkowsky, about the Jewish philanthropic tradition in America. They highlight, in particular, Julius Rosenwald, who funded over 5,000 schools for African Americans in the Deep South in the first half of the 20th century. They also discuss the impact of the Trump administration on contemporary philanthropy and touch on the troubling rise of anti-Semitism.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week on Givers, doers and Thinkers, we talk to
one of America's foremostthinkers on philanthropy,
indiana University's LesLankowski, about the Jewish
philanthropic tradition inAmerica.
We highlight in particularJulius Rosenwald, who funded
over 5,000 schools for AfricanAmericans in the Deep South in
the first half of the 20thcentury.
Les also discusses the impactof the Trump administration on
(00:24):
contemporary philanthropy and wetouch on the troubling rise of
anti-Semitism.
Let's go Welcome to Givers,doers and Thinkers, a podcast on
(00:50):
philanthropy and civil society.
My name is Jeremy Beer.
I'm your host, honored to haveyou with us and very honored to
have with me today as our guestDr Les Lankowski.
How are you doing, les?
Hello, I'm fine, thank you.
We are going to be talkingabout the Jewish philanthropic
tradition in America andspecifically an especially
(01:11):
interesting representative ofthat tradition in Julius
Rosenwald.
Before we get going, let metell people a bit about who you
are, although this is yoursecond time on this podcast and
I appreciate you coming on.
Les is professor of practice inthe Paul H O'Neill School of
Public and Environmental Affairsat Indiana University, my alma
mater.
We used to call it SPIA.
(01:32):
Do they still call it SPIA?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
I think we have.
We somehow combined them, soit's very long.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yeah, it is it's too long a name but it works and a
member of the philanthropicstudies faculty of the IU Lilly
Family School of Philanthropy,which, of course, is the leading
such academic department orschool in the country.
Les is a political scientist bytraining PhD from Harvard, also
served as the president ofnonprofits in the past,
(01:58):
including the Hudson Institute,and in government as the CEO of
the Corporation for National andCommunity Service under
President George W Bush from2001 to 2004.
So, pretty much correct.
That's got it.
I know there's more, but try tokeep these things reasonably
simple.
Ray, happy to have you with us.
(02:19):
We're going to talk about JuliusRosenwald, what he did, why he
was important.
Let's go back to the foundingera first, because the theme of
this season of the podcast isthe American semi
-quincentennial I think I'msaying that correctly America's
250th birthday or anniversary.
(02:40):
So because that's a theme here,let's just go back first before
we get to Julius Rosenwald.
What was the position or placeof American Jews within American
society around 1776?
And what kind of interactiondid Jewish communities have with
key figures in the foundinggeneration?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
There were not a lot of Jews here, but I think the
general atmosphere of tolerationin many, though not all, of the
colonies proved to be awelcoming one for Jews.
A Jewish financier named ChaimSolomon helped finance the
Revolutionary War armies.
Shortly after he becamepresident, george Washington
(03:26):
wrote a famous letter to theTruro Synagogue in Rhode Island
welcoming Jews and pledging thatthis would be a country which
they'd be able to pray and situnder their own I believe it was
a fig tree peacefully.
So there was a generalrecognition of tolerance.
(03:48):
On the other hand, you know itwas also true that there were
elements of discrimination inpractice against Jews, say,
admission to higher education,for one.
There were quotas, limits tothat, perhaps certain businesses
, but they were certainly lessthan those that Jews had
(04:12):
encountered in the old world.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Fewer pogroms per year.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Oh, absolutely, in fact, a very different attitude
here.
One of my favorite stories iswhen Ulysses S Grant was
president in the latter part ofthe 19th century.
There was a pogrom, I believeit is, in what is now Romania or
Moldova, and Grant not onlydenounced it, but he nominated
(04:45):
as his ambassador to thatcountry a Jewish American.
This was the spirit, notconsistently, of course, but
there was certainly a lot ofthat.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
What were the great periods of Jewish immigration
into the US prior to the 20thcentury?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
There was a major Jewish immigration in the middle
part of the 1800s, mostlycoming from Germany.
There were quite a bit ofpolitical ferment in Germany at
the time.
Right, a lot of Jews left thecountry.
1948 and all that, yeah,exactly.
And then again, at the end ofthe 19th and the early 20th
(05:24):
century, we saw a major influxof Jews in the United States,
this time from Eastern Europe,russia, poland and so on.
That was probably a much largergroup.
(05:54):
Just like we would see withCatholic philanthropy, as you
get these huge influxes of Irishand Italian immigrants and
others, which we would regard asmutual societies today in New
York City in the early 20thcentury, and found hundreds of
them, often among new Jewishimmigrants, often organized by
(06:16):
the parts of Europe from whichthey came, and these were
societies that enabled these newimmigrants to learn how to
become Americans.
They would typically begin withthe Pledge of Allegiance and so
on.
They also provided some usefulfunctions, such as maintaining
(06:37):
cemeteries.
My family, actually there is afamily plot in a cemetery on
Long Island that dates back tothis period, and regularly I
send a small amount of money toa person I've never met but is a
distant relative whose job itis to collect the money and send
it to the people who maintainthe cemetery.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, we forget that burial was one of the big needs
that mutual aid societies roseto meet, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yes, indeed, of course there were lots of
synagogues in all parts of thecountry.
We typically think of theJewish immigration into the
Northeast, but in fact it spreadwidely.
Julius Rosenwald, whom we'll bediscussing later, his family
made it to Illinois.
Others went into the South.
A lot of them were merchantsand some of the famous early
(07:31):
marketing names were Jewishfamilies that had immigrated and
moved elsewhere, and where theywent they founded communal
institutions.
In addition to cemeteries, ofcourse, there would be
synagogues, hospitals or otherkinds of health clinics, not so
much schools as we saw amongCatholics.
(07:51):
For example, there was a Jewishday school movement.
It was pretty small untilfairly recently.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
The communal institutions that were founded
and funded these communalinstitutions?
Were they mainly to serve theJewish community or do they have
more of an external focus?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
They were mainly to serve the Jewish community.
So as Jews became moreprosperous in their community
they would join other groupsthat were broader the Rotary,
kiwanis and so on.
Obviously, public schoolsprovided a very important nexus
for communication with the widercommunity.
(08:31):
Also, again, one shouldn'tminimize the amount of
discrimination that went on.
I still remember I went to highschool in the 1950s and I was
invited to join a club, or thepossibility of joining a club
arose, and it was explained tome by my parents that this was a
(08:52):
club for Christians, not forJews.
Yeah, interesting, but Jews hadtheir own clubs and their own
institutions.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
The experience of discrimination.
That's a good segue intotalking about Julius Rosenwald.
So Rosenwald was born in 1862.
Yeah, is he born in Chicago?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I believe it was Springfield Illinois.
In fact the house in which hegrew up is now part of the
Abraham Lincoln Homestead.
It's one of the buildings onthat homestead in Springfield
Illinois.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
How does he rise to become an executive at Sears
Roebuck?
Yeah, for those who don't know,that's what he did.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
It's a fascinating story that really touches on
what we were just talking about.
Mr Rosenwald's parents weretailors and they ran a clothing
store in Springfield, illinois,and Julius was headed into the
business In Yiddish we call itthe shmata business and he was
(09:46):
headed into it and as part ofhis education he took a trip to
New York to learn about thebusiness as well as finance and
so on, and he wound up living ina boarding house.
He's a young man now, probablylate teens, early 20s lives in a
boarding house where among's ayoung man now probably late
teens, early twenties lives in aboarding house where among the
(10:07):
other residents there werepeople named Morgenthau and
Goldman, as in Goldman Sachsthat was the Goldman.
So in this little network I'msure this would have been a
boarding house for young Jewishmen.
They got to know each otherwell.
He goes back into the businesseventually is the chief
(10:30):
executive, moves up to Chicago.
A business there and got areputation in Chicago.
Sears what we knew as SearsRoebuck started in the late 19th
century and was modestlysuccessful but did have its
(10:51):
problems.
And Rosenwald moved over toSears Roebuck as, I believe, the
marketing executive for it.
Sears in many ways was theAmazon of its day.
If you think of it that way,one of the principal marketing
efforts was a catalog that wouldgo to houses, families, all
(11:13):
over the United States andparticularly in the Midwest.
You could buy anything youneeded from this catalog,
including a prefabricated homethat you could then put up.
Eventually, opportunities arose,largely because of some
business problems the companyhad and I think this was the
first decade of the 20th century, maybe the last of the 19th and
(11:37):
Mr Rosenwald used hisconnections with a young Goldman
to develop an initial privateoffering.
This was the first one that thecompany we now know as Goldman
Sachs ever did Wow, and he usedit to buy out by a controlling
(11:58):
share in the company and becameits chief executive and used his
marketing skills as well, as hewas very good on what today we
would call HR personnel.
He had a real feel for how doyou motivate employees, get the
best performance out of them andso on, and he used all those
(12:19):
skills to build Sears Roebuckinto a colossus as well as
create a substantial fortune forhimself.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Had to be one of the biggest companies in America at
this time we're talking about.
Probably was at that time.
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
A lot depends how you count.
The Rockefeller Oil Trusts Okay, and maybe the Ford Motor
Company Right, but there's noquestion at all that Rosenwald
was among the giants of commercein that time.
There are any number ofpictures of banquets and so on
which you'll see people likeRockefeller and Ford and
(12:58):
Rosenwald Carnegie and thoseguys.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Did he have the personal wealth of those, the
Robert Barron types?
Was it that big or is it reallya tier or two down?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
It probably was a tier or two down, partly because
he would continue to give itaway.
One of the key characteristicsof Mr Rosenwald's philanthropy,
whose roots lie in the Jewishreligious obligation to repair
the world as it's called hewould constantly be engaged in
(13:29):
philanthropic projects.
So while he made a lot of money,he also gave a lot of it away.
In the 1920s, in fact, he wrotetwo famous essays I believe for
Harper's Magazine, believe forHarper's Magazine making the
case for what we call todaygiving while living and limiting
(13:50):
the lifetime of yourfoundations.
Now, this was not a new idea.
In fact, andrew Carnegie, inthe Gospel of Wealth, also said
that wealthy people should giveaway their money in their
lifetimes.
Carnegie wrote the man who dieswith his wealth intact dies in
disgrace.
But Carnegie himself nevermanaged to do it, whether
(14:13):
because he didn't try hardenough or because his wealth
just kept growing, and so at acame a point around 1910 where
he transferred everything into afoundation, which we know today
is the Carnegie Corporation.
Rosenwald really had the sameidea and articulated it very
(14:35):
well, as not only an obligationto give in one's lifetime, but
he also felt that foundationsthat were set up as permanent
endowments were likely to becometoo bureaucratic.
This was not a politicalargument, as far as we know.
Rosenwald was a Republicanbusinessman of his era, very
(14:58):
much a centrist, a MidwesternRepublican, but that didn't
really enter into hisphilanthropy.
Republican, but that didn'treally enter into his
philanthropy.
He felt that if a foundation isset up to live forever, the
people running it, especiallyafter the initial donor, would
be spending too much timeworrying about preserving the
(15:19):
endowment, avoiding taking risksand so on.
Employment, avoiding takingrisks and so on.
So basically his argument wasfor good philanthropy, you need
to have a limited lifetime givewhile living, and that's what he
did initially.
A lot of his giving went tojewish communal causes,
particularly in chicago,cultural centers and so forth
(15:43):
but then he starts giving toblack yMCA's.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Is this sort of his first foray into?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, this is always a little bit murky, but I think
he attended a synagogue inChicago whose rabbi knew Booker
T Washington.
Okay, and so connected the two.
Rabbi was a very famous rabbiin the United States at the time
, connected the two andRosenwald started supporting
(16:11):
Washington's school, tuskegeeInstitute in the South and
others like it.
The Washington's thrust wasreally for what today we would
call vocational and technicaltraining for people who, after
all, were the children of freeslaves.
At some point, though,rosenwald asked Washington what
(16:35):
else could he do?
Remember, rosenwald's anentrepreneur and, like most
entrepreneurs, he's looking forthe next thing, and Washington
basically tells him I'msummarizing.
There's an excellent book by awoman who is married to a
Rosenwald descendant on theschools, stephanie Deutsch,
(16:58):
called you need a schoolhouseand I was not going to show very
well, yeah, but I was going toask you this question anyway,
though, so I'm glad we'recalling it out.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
So you need a schoolhouse.
That's a good book on this,right.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
You need a schoolhouse, by Stephanie
Deutsch.
And what Washington toldRosenwald was we're in the in.
In the South and the Statesbelow the Mason Dixon line,
schools were still segregated,which meant for
African-Americans and forespecially rural ones the
(17:31):
quality wasn't very good.
So in 1910, Rosenwald began aprogram that resulted in the
building of 5,000 schools forAfrican-Americans in the South.
You might think of them asearly versions of charter
(17:53):
schools.
They were public schools.
In fact, Rosenwald also gavemoney to the various state
education departments in theSouth to provide for the
oversight of these schools, butthey were run.
They were built, actually, andrun by the communities
(18:13):
themselves.
They were community schools.
And they had to help come upwith the money for these schools
too, right, yes, they did andthey had to come up with the
money, but also a lot of sweatequity.
There were buildings to bringin teachers.
We're talking about the poorestregion in the country and the
poorest parts of that regionneeded housing for schools.
(18:35):
Many of them were elementaryschools.
Some were also junior highschools or junior senior high
schools combined.
The school, for example, fromwhich the young people left to
integrate Central High School inLittle Rock, Arkansas in the
1950s was a Rosenwald JuniorHigh School.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, I would assume that, by definition, most of
these schools are fairly smallbecause of yes, they're very
small.
That's why there have to be5,000 of them because of
transportation difficulties andeverything.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
They're basic one-room schoolhouses, yeah, and
so you had multiple grades inthe room and so on, but it was a
great improvement over whatotherwise would have been
available.
Wise would have been available.
In fact.
(19:31):
We estimate I believe it wassomething like a third of the
children being educated at theelementary school in the deep
South over the period 1910through the 1930s were educated
in Rosenwald schools.
Wow, an enormous number.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Was Rosenwald.
Besides the schools themselvesand maybe some.
I don't know if any money didgo from the state boards of
education, I guess for oversightand maintenance and so forth
were there other largephilanthropists that got in on
this?
There was.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
There was a branch of the Rockefeller Foundation, the
Laura Spellman RockefellerFoundation, that was involved,
and several others.
This was a big interest of anumber of philanthropies in the
first third of the 20th century.
In fact, what happened was bythe middle of the 20th century.
(20:21):
They did what foundations do bythe end of the first or during
the depression and commissioneda big study of what we've
accomplished.
What should we do next?
That study eventually turnedout to be an important work in
the development of the civilrights movement.
(20:43):
A book called An AmericanDilemma by Gunnar Myrdal.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Oh, that's what informed that book that is
exactly what did.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
The foundations wanted to take stock of where
they were.
It was led by the CarnegieFoundation at this point To
finish the Rosenwald story, bythe way.
So he does this over a 20 yearperiod and unfortunately he
passes away in 1932.
The foundation is set to livefor a generation after his death
(21:17):
.
It was called the RosenwaldFund, and so there was a staff
headquartered in Memphis,tennessee, and they continued
with the schools, but they alsoestablished another program that
had enormous effect.
It was the Rosenwald FellowshipProgram, and what it did was
(21:37):
identify African-Americanprofessionals of great talent
and essentially give themfellowship.
These were people already intotheir careers but needed a boost
.
Old-fashioned patronage it was,but it was also a talent search.
There was a lot of talk at thetime of finding the talented
(22:00):
10th the talented 10th yep, andthat's what the Rosenwald Fund
did, and they were verysuccessful.
Among the people they selectedwas the singer Marian Anderson,
the diplomat Ralph Bunche, andall sorts of scientists and
others who went on to greatdistinctions in their career.
(22:22):
Marian Anderson, for example,used her fellowship to go to
France to continue her vocaltraining.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Did I read too, that Langston Hughes and James
Baldwin were also recipients?
It's quite possible I couldn'teven begin.
There were several of them.
I think I read that they hadsome sort of connection with
Rosenwald support.
I think I read that they hadsome sort of connection with
Rosenwald support.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
The fund eventually dissolves, as was Rosenwald's
intention right after the SecondWorld War.
In effect, there's still anumber of Rosenwald-related
foundations, the differentbranches of the family, but the
main one, the Rosenwald Fund,does dissolve as intended.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
So it's hard to imagine more impactful I hate
that word, I can't barely justuse that word but a strategy
that had more effectiveness thanwhat Rosenwald did.
We're talking about somethingthat leads right up to the Civil
Rights Movement of the 1960s.
It raises the groundwork, Ithink everybody agrees.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
In fact, one of the young men who went to a
Rosenwald school turned out tobe John Lewis, the Civil Rights
leader.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
And Maya Angelou too, for that matter.
Maya Angelou.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
You could just trace all sorts of people with ties
back to those schools.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
If you're educating one third of the
African-American kids in theSouth, you're going yeah,
there's going to be a lot offamous people who went through
those schools.
But my point in saying this wasgoing to be here.
You have this very effectivestrategy of the schools and the
fellowships here.
You have this very effectivestrategy of the schools and the
fellowships and then it reallylays the groundwork for the
civil rights movement.
All from a centrist midwesternkind of republican businessman
(24:11):
type.
Exactly curious, it wasn't.
He didn't have a sociallyradical point of view, as far as
we know not.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
As far as I know, he was basically your midern
business.
He was always and I think thisis partly out of his religious
upbringing care for the poor andthe needy was always very
central.
His experience as a Jewrecognizing that discrimination
is something you have to work toovercome, over, overcome, and
(24:50):
then just a vision, which wasactually widely shared at the
time, of what united statesshould be like, where people
have opportunities.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
We were really believed quite strongly in equal
opportunity and this was a waythat he could do something
directly to further it a sense Iguess you could look at the,
the triumph of Rosenwald, as thetriumph of Booker T Washington
and his particular philosophyfor how the African-American
(25:13):
community was going to be raisedup and or raise itself up
socially to something morelooking more like equality.
But is that fair to say?
I?
Speaker 2 (25:24):
think that's true.
Washington, of course, hasbecome more controversial now
than he was when he lived, butit certainly does testify to the
importance of Washington'sphilosophy, though it really
should be noted that in thecontext of his time, his
(25:44):
philosophy was by no meansunique number one.
Also, Rosenwald was involved insupporting other kinds of
efforts for civil rights.
The NAACP, for example, iscreated during this period, and
Rosenwald was among thesupporters.
Was among the supporters.
(26:08):
He did recognize that theobstacles were not only those of
lack of education and training,but laws as well.
This too, this was somethingthe Jewish community generally
recognized.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Yeah, so talk about the National Park Campaign.
How did this?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
come about.
I've been a member for severalyears of an organization whose
mission is to create a nationalhistoric park in honor of Julius
Rosenwald and the Rosenwaldschools.
The genesis of this park reallycame about because it turns out
(26:47):
there are no parks, nothing, nonational parks, historic sites
that commemorate the work of aphilanthropist as important as
philanthropy is in our countrypark or historic site that
(27:09):
commemorates the work of aJewish American and nothing that
commemorates the importance ofthe partnership between the two
groups.
And it was that last point.
We all know that the last yearshave been very difficult in
terms of A variety of things wedon't need to rehearse, but the
idea was we need something thattells a positive story about the
role of philanthropy inAmerican life, of
(27:32):
Jewish-American andAfrican-American partnerships
and so on.
So this began several years agoto create a National Historic
Site to be administered by theNational Park Service as a
permanent reminder of this.
That's what national historicsites do they serve as permanent
(27:52):
reminders.
The site itself is meant toconsist of a museum or visitor's
center in Chicago that willtalk about Rosenwald's work and
the schools.
And then there are maybe wedon't even have an exact number
of the 5,000 schools that werecreated we think about three
(28:15):
dozen at least are stillexisting in some shape or form,
and so the historic site wouldprovide for the National Park
Service to take over perhaps upto six of those schools provide,
upgrade them as necessary,maintain them and then open them
(28:38):
to the public with docents andso on, so you can visit them.
And these schools are invarious parts of the country
Maryland, south Carolina,arkansas, and so on.
So that's the idea for thehistoric site.
So it's not one place, but youmight call it a virtual historic
site.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It's all part of the same National Historic Park.
They would be right.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yes, exactly different, and so it's meant to
be a memorial, but also teaching.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
What is the level of support for this, especially in
the south?
Do you have the painful memoryproblem?
Yeah, this is so far so good.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
so where the project stands in, the first step in the
process is to have the NationalPark Service do what you might
call a feasibility study of thisidea of work, and to do that
you need a bill that directs thePark Service to do it, and that
bill was passed in December of2020 with bipartisan support on
(29:46):
the Senate side.
Senator Durbin of Illinois tookthe lead, but the co-sponsor
was Senator Lamar Alexander ofTennessee.
There's also bipartisan supporton the House side, and then it
goes to the White House, since abill does not become law unless
(30:06):
a president signs it, andPresident Trump did sign it.
He understood the importance ofthis, why it was important to
do this.
Feasibility study involvedpublic hearings and all sorts of
stuff, and recommended creationof the historic site, as has
(30:32):
the Department of the Interior.
So it was awaiting furtheraction in Congress but, of
course, in 2024, but that wasnot to be done.
But that was not to be done.
So we are about to see theintroduction of a new bill in
the current Congress.
We know Senator Durbin isprepared to be a co-sponsor and
(30:56):
we're talking to a variety ofRepublican senators at this
point about co-sponsoringSimilarly on the House side am
confident.
Uh, it will be bipartisan again.
There are some costimplications, though.
A lot of the money for thebuildings and so on will have to
be raised privately is thattypical for how these things
(31:17):
work that is how they work thesedays.
the park service basically is astandard setting operation,
provides the docents and thingslike that, but the actual
facilities, collection ofmaterials and so on usually are
financed privately.
(31:39):
On the cusp of actually seeinga piece of legislation to create
the park or the historic parkis re-gearing itself to be a
kind of friends of group thatwill raise the funds and oversee
the collections.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
I would think there would be pretty widespread
interest in this for the reasonsyou mentioned, a sort of
celebration of what can beaccomplished with private
philanthropy, certainly acelebration of something that's
just good, a social good thatwas brought about through
private philanthropy.
Is that your expectation too,that there's going to be a lot
of support?
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Yeah, we have a number of people besides me with
backgrounds in philanthropy onthe governing board of the
campaign and we don't reallythink that fundraising is going
to be a major problem.
Now.
We haven't really started, butall of us have lots of
experience and, I think, have agood idea that this is a very
(32:42):
doable fundraising task.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
And people want to know more about this.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I think it's.
Is it Rosenwaldparkorg?
I believe?
Speaker 1 (32:51):
that's our website.
I double check myself here, yep, so you can go there.
There's actually a lot, lotsand lots of historical stuff.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
You'll see some of the schools that'll be included
in the park.
There's also an excellent videothat we commissioned like you
normally do to promote something, but it really is wonderful and
emphasizes the theme of workingtogether to improve the nation,
which we so badly need today.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yeah, and a great, as I say, we talk about America
250, a great, historical,positive, historical story to
tell an important one.
So, yeah, I wish you luck withit Now.
While I have you, though, we'regoing to get off Rosenwald here
for a little bit.
Switch, switch, okay, break.
I have you here and you're afrequent and incisive
(33:42):
commentator on philanthropy andpolitics.
What do you think?
Or I should say, we'rerecording this, it's February 21
, 2025.
What do you think the newadministration if, at a
whirlwind, five weeks of the newsix weeks of the administration
, what do you expect the impactto be on philanthropy and
nonprofits.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
As you say, we're only one month in.
We live under what I call thetyranny of the hundred days,
which is all presidential terms.
Are supposed to do things in ahundred days and they rush to do
them, create a lot of confusionand chaos and philanthropic
(34:22):
world about what theadministration is doing.
For example, its actionsrelated to USAID actually affect
lots of nonprofits, includingreligious charities that do a
good deal of contracting for AID.
So I'm hearing a lot of that.
(34:42):
I've spoken to lots of peoplein the philanthropic world.
The things to keep in mind,besides the fact that we're only
one month in number one theactual direct actions the
administration has taken need tobe looked at.
Richard Nixon's attorneygeneral, john Mitchell, once
(35:04):
said don't look at what we say,look at what we do, and it's
sometimes hard.
The rhetoric, I know, is verydifficult, but it's important to
look at what the administrationis doing.
Number one a memorandum issuedon heads of federal agencies
(35:27):
that work with nonprofits.
It consisted of two paragraphs.
One was a lot of bluster.
I would have preferred itdidn't, but then.
But there it was.
The second, though, was theoperative paragraph, which
basically instructed theagencies to review their rules,
their guidelines, procedures tomake sure they're consistent
(35:50):
with administration policy.
That's standard operatingprocedure.
I did it in Bush 43 when Iheaded the Corporation for
National Community Service.
So we really have to lookcarefully at what is being done.
A lot of concern about the DEIrules.
(36:11):
Again, there's a lot ofsymbolism here.
I don't want to underestimatethe importance of symbolism, but
when you look at it, most ofwhat the administration is doing
is going back to the SupremeCourt decision and telling
grantees and contractors tocomply with it.
(36:31):
So that's number one.
Number two Congress has yet toweigh in.
We're going to start to see nowwhat happens.
Perfect example A lot ofnonprofits are concerned by an
effort to reduce the amountallowed for overhead expenses by
the National Institutes ofHealth to 15 percent.
(36:54):
Right now, every institutionnegotiates an overhead rate
which could be as high as 60percent or so, could be as high
as 60% or so.
The Trump administration hasproposed a flat 15% rate,
pointing out, not incorrectly,that this is still higher than
(37:16):
private donors often allow.
This is not a new idea.
The first Trump administrationtried exactly the same idea.
What happened?
It was rebuffed by Congress.
The appropriations bills madeit quite clear Can't do this,
and it was repeated many years.
(37:37):
We'll have to see what happensand I'm not drawing any
conclusion about merits here.
Yeah, I'm just saying that theprocess has just begun Already.
I know Senator Britt of Alabamaraised questions about this cut
, so this is an issue and ofcourse it'll affect University
(37:59):
of Alabama and otherinstitutions in her state.
This is a big issue.
It could account for a lot ofsavings, but that the Trump
administration has taken a stepdoesn't mean it will be the
final word.
We'll see where Congress weighsin what I've told groups.
(38:20):
I did a briefing for a group inphilanthropy.
I said difficult as it is.
I did a briefing for a group inphilanthropy.
I said difficult as it is.
Now is the time to recall thefamous World War II motto from
Great Britain keep calm andcarry on.
Non-profit sector should justkeep calm, keep doing what it
(38:43):
does, including advocate forpoints of view that it feels are
not being properly considered.
I think there are going to be alot of those with regard to
international development.
But don't panic.
We have a process here.
We have to go through it.
Obviously, president Trump,elon Musk, jd Vance are very
(39:06):
articulate in expressing theirviews, and that will undoubtedly
rub people the wrong way.
There are lots of people,particularly probationary
employees, who are being let gofrom the federal government.
This is a big mistake.
Creating a climate of fear andanxiety is not a way in any
(39:28):
organization to get goodperformance and I think sooner
or later the Trumpadministration will recognize
this To some extent, already hadto roll back some of these cuts
it moving target.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah, after October 7th and everything that's
happened after that, both abroadand domestically, with protests
and universities and so forth,I would get a call from
reporters several times, well,every couple of months, like,
hey, what do you think theoutcome of all this will be for
philanthropy?
What's going to change?
What is changing?
And it wasn't really my area, Ididn't know enough about that,
(40:03):
but what have you seen withJewish philanthropy perhaps in
particular, maybe philanthropymore broadly, in light of
October 7th, because it seems tome there's been a big light
bulb moment in the last,whatever now 18 months, 16
months.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, I think that's right.
There's going to be animportant new book coming out in
July by a man named JackWertheimer who is the guru on
Jewish philanthropy, and I'veread a long article drawn from
the book and his findings arewe've heard a lot about Jewish
donors withdrawing money fromuniversities where there have
(40:43):
been protests.
That has happened, but it's notthe most important event.
The most important event hasbeen a renewal of support for
Jewish communal organization.
This has been a major issue whythere has, in our country
certainly, and other countries,been a lot of assimilation and
(41:06):
when, say, a Jewish woman or manmarries a non-Jewish man or
woman, chances are funding ofJewish institutions will decline
.
But October 7th has remindedeverybody about their importance
and so we are seeing that Now.
How long that will last is animportant issue, important
(41:29):
question.
The other side of this is thereare there's no question of all
at all and well-documented anincrease in anti-Semitism.
Jewish students I just did anevent here with our Jewish
students are concerned aboutbeing too identifiably Jewish.
(41:50):
This is all unfortunate.
We need good leadership here.
At Indiana University we had anencampment last spring.
The president brought the statepolice in immediately.
President brought the statepolice in immediately.
I'd like to see more leadershiplike that from people who had
(42:11):
institutions of higher education, but also other kinds of
institutions.
It would be very good.
There's also, by the way, agrowing amount of interest in
Jewish Christian Hindu.
Jewish Christian Hindu.
Interestingly, collaboration.
We've worked with groups in theChristian community that want
(42:32):
to do something about risinganti-Semitism.
Same with Hindus Interesting,so we may see lots developing
Hindus.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
I didn't know about Catholics and Christians.
I did through an organizationcalled the Filos Project.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yes, that's exactly the one we've been working with.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Yeah, on the Christian side to highlight and
expose and address this to mejust absolutely bonkers.
Insane rise in anti-Semitism,not just on the fringy or highly
progressive left but also onthe right.
Maybe it'd be good in the endtoo.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
It certainly is very good for Jewish students to know
that they are not alone.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Telling the, as we said, the very inspiring,
positive story of JuliusRosenwald and what he
accomplished maybe is one way todo that.
Thanks, les, for what you'redoing on that project and for
joining us here today.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
My pleasure.
Thank you very much, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Appreciate you as always.
Thanks, my friend.
Hey, thanks for joining us fortoday's podcast.
If you enjoyed it, we inviteyou to subscribe and or rate and
or review us on YouTube, apple,spotify or wherever you listen
to our podcasts.
Thanks a lot.
This week on Givers, doers and Thinkers, we talk to
one of America's foremostthinkers on philanthropy,
indiana University's LesLankowski, about the Jewish
philanthropic tradition inAmerica.
We highlight in particularJulius Rosenwald, who funded
over 5,000 schools for AfricanAmericans in the Deep South in
the first half of the 20thcentury.
Les also discusses the impactof the Trump administration on
(00:24):
contemporary philanthropy and wetouch on the troubling rise of
anti-Semitism.
Let's go Welcome to Givers,doers and Thinkers, a podcast on
(00:50):
philanthropy and civil society.
My name is Jeremy Beer.
I'm your host, honored to haveyou with us and very honored to
have with me today as our guestDr Les Lankowski.
How are you doing, les?
Hello, I'm fine, thank you.
We are going to be talkingabout the Jewish philanthropic
tradition in America andspecifically an especially
(01:11):
interesting representative ofthat tradition in Julius
Rosenwald.
Before we get going, let metell people a bit about who you
are, although this is yoursecond time on this podcast and
I appreciate you coming on.
Les is professor of practice inthe Paul H O'Neill School of
Public and Environmental Affairsat Indiana University, my alma
mater.
We used to call it SPIA.
(01:32):
Do they still call it SPIA?
Speaker 2 (01:34):
I think we have.
We somehow combined them, soit's very long.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
Yeah, it is it's too long a name but it works and a
member of the philanthropicstudies faculty of the IU Lilly
Family School of Philanthropy,which, of course, is the leading
such academic department orschool in the country.
Les is a political scientist bytraining PhD from Harvard, also
served as the president ofnonprofits in the past,
(01:58):
including the Hudson Institute,and in government as the CEO of
the Corporation for National andCommunity Service under
President George W Bush from2001 to 2004.
So, pretty much correct.
That's got it.
I know there's more, but try tokeep these things reasonably
simple.
Ray, happy to have you with us.
(02:19):
We're going to talk about JuliusRosenwald, what he did, why he
was important.
Let's go back to the foundingera first, because the theme of
this season of the podcast isthe American semi
-quincentennial I think I'msaying that correctly America's
250th birthday or anniversary.
(02:40):
So because that's a theme here,let's just go back first before
we get to Julius Rosenwald.
What was the position or placeof American Jews within American
society around 1776?
And what kind of interactiondid Jewish communities have with
key figures in the foundinggeneration?
Speaker 2 (03:01):
There were not a lot of Jews here, but I think the
general atmosphere of tolerationin many, though not all, of the
colonies proved to be awelcoming one for Jews.
A Jewish financier named ChaimSolomon helped finance the
Revolutionary War armies.
Shortly after he becamepresident, george Washington
(03:26):
wrote a famous letter to theTruro Synagogue in Rhode Island
welcoming Jews and pledging thatthis would be a country which
they'd be able to pray and situnder their own I believe it was
a fig tree peacefully.
So there was a generalrecognition of tolerance.
(03:48):
On the other hand, you know itwas also true that there were
elements of discrimination inpractice against Jews, say,
admission to higher education,for one.
There were quotas, limits tothat, perhaps certain businesses
, but they were certainly lessthan those that Jews had
(04:12):
encountered in the old world.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Fewer pogroms per year.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Oh, absolutely, in fact, a very different attitude
here.
One of my favorite stories iswhen Ulysses S Grant was
president in the latter part ofthe 19th century.
There was a pogrom, I believeit is, in what is now Romania or
Moldova, and Grant not onlydenounced it, but he nominated
(04:45):
as his ambassador to thatcountry a Jewish American.
This was the spirit, notconsistently, of course, but
there was certainly a lot ofthat.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
What were the great periods of Jewish immigration
into the US prior to the 20thcentury?
Speaker 2 (05:02):
There was a major Jewish immigration in the middle
part of the 1800s, mostlycoming from Germany.
There were quite a bit ofpolitical ferment in Germany at
the time.
Right, a lot of Jews left thecountry.
1948 and all that, yeah,exactly.
And then again, at the end ofthe 19th and the early 20th
(05:24):
century, we saw a major influxof Jews in the United States,
this time from Eastern Europe,russia, poland and so on.
That was probably a much largergroup.
(05:54):
Just like we would see withCatholic philanthropy, as you
get these huge influxes of Irishand Italian immigrants and
others, which we would regard asmutual societies today in New
York City in the early 20thcentury, and found hundreds of
them, often among new Jewishimmigrants, often organized by
(06:16):
the parts of Europe from whichthey came, and these were
societies that enabled these newimmigrants to learn how to
become Americans.
They would typically begin withthe Pledge of Allegiance and so
on.
They also provided some usefulfunctions, such as maintaining
(06:37):
cemeteries.
My family, actually there is afamily plot in a cemetery on
Long Island that dates back tothis period, and regularly I
send a small amount of money toa person I've never met but is a
distant relative whose job itis to collect the money and send
it to the people who maintainthe cemetery.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, we forget that burial was one of the big needs
that mutual aid societies roseto meet, wasn't it?
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Yes, indeed, of course there were lots of
synagogues in all parts of thecountry.
We typically think of theJewish immigration into the
Northeast, but in fact it spreadwidely.
Julius Rosenwald, whom we'll bediscussing later, his family
made it to Illinois.
Others went into the South.
A lot of them were merchantsand some of the famous early
(07:31):
marketing names were Jewishfamilies that had immigrated and
moved elsewhere, and where theywent they founded communal
institutions.
In addition to cemeteries, ofcourse, there would be
synagogues, hospitals or otherkinds of health clinics, not so
much schools as we saw amongCatholics.
(07:51):
For example, there was a Jewishday school movement.
It was pretty small untilfairly recently.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
The communal institutions that were founded
and funded these communalinstitutions?
Were they mainly to serve theJewish community or do they have
more of an external focus?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
They were mainly to serve the Jewish community.
So as Jews became moreprosperous in their community
they would join other groupsthat were broader the Rotary,
kiwanis and so on.
Obviously, public schoolsprovided a very important nexus
for communication with the widercommunity.
(08:31):
Also, again, one shouldn'tminimize the amount of
discrimination that went on.
I still remember I went to highschool in the 1950s and I was
invited to join a club, or thepossibility of joining a club
arose, and it was explained tome by my parents that this was a
(08:52):
club for Christians, not forJews.
Yeah, interesting, but Jews hadtheir own clubs and their own
institutions.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
The experience of discrimination.
That's a good segue intotalking about Julius Rosenwald.
So Rosenwald was born in 1862.
Yeah, is he born in Chicago?
Speaker 2 (09:08):
I believe it was Springfield Illinois.
In fact the house in which hegrew up is now part of the
Abraham Lincoln Homestead.
It's one of the buildings onthat homestead in Springfield
Illinois.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
How does he rise to become an executive at Sears
Roebuck?
Yeah, for those who don't know,that's what he did.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
It's a fascinating story that really touches on
what we were just talking about.
Mr Rosenwald's parents weretailors and they ran a clothing
store in Springfield, illinois,and Julius was headed into the
business In Yiddish we call itthe shmata business and he was
(09:46):
headed into it and as part ofhis education he took a trip to
New York to learn about thebusiness as well as finance and
so on, and he wound up living ina boarding house.
He's a young man now, probablylate teens, early 20s lives in a
boarding house where among's ayoung man now probably late
teens, early twenties lives in aboarding house where among the
(10:07):
other residents there werepeople named Morgenthau and
Goldman, as in Goldman Sachsthat was the Goldman.
So in this little network I'msure this would have been a
boarding house for young Jewishmen.
They got to know each otherwell.
He goes back into the businesseventually is the chief
(10:30):
executive, moves up to Chicago.
A business there and got areputation in Chicago.
Sears what we knew as SearsRoebuck started in the late 19th
century and was modestlysuccessful but did have its
(10:51):
problems.
And Rosenwald moved over toSears Roebuck as, I believe, the
marketing executive for it.
Sears in many ways was theAmazon of its day.
If you think of it that way,one of the principal marketing
efforts was a catalog that wouldgo to houses, families, all
(11:13):
over the United States andparticularly in the Midwest.
You could buy anything youneeded from this catalog,
including a prefabricated homethat you could then put up.
Eventually, opportunities arose,largely because of some
business problems the companyhad and I think this was the
first decade of the 20th century, maybe the last of the 19th and
(11:37):
Mr Rosenwald used hisconnections with a young Goldman
to develop an initial privateoffering.
This was the first one that thecompany we now know as Goldman
Sachs ever did Wow, and he usedit to buy out by a controlling
(11:58):
share in the company and becameits chief executive and used his
marketing skills as well, as hewas very good on what today we
would call HR personnel.
He had a real feel for how doyou motivate employees, get the
best performance out of them andso on, and he used all those
(12:19):
skills to build Sears Roebuckinto a colossus as well as
create a substantial fortune forhimself.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Had to be one of the biggest companies in America at
this time we're talking about.
Probably was at that time.
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
A lot depends how you count.
The Rockefeller Oil Trusts Okay, and maybe the Ford Motor
Company Right, but there's noquestion at all that Rosenwald
was among the giants of commercein that time.
There are any number ofpictures of banquets and so on
which you'll see people likeRockefeller and Ford and
(12:58):
Rosenwald Carnegie and thoseguys.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Did he have the personal wealth of those, the
Robert Barron types?
Was it that big or is it reallya tier or two down?
Speaker 2 (13:07):
It probably was a tier or two down, partly because
he would continue to give itaway.
One of the key characteristicsof Mr Rosenwald's philanthropy,
whose roots lie in the Jewishreligious obligation to repair
the world as it's called hewould constantly be engaged in
(13:29):
philanthropic projects.
So while he made a lot of money,he also gave a lot of it away.
In the 1920s, in fact, he wrotetwo famous essays I believe for
Harper's Magazine, believe forHarper's Magazine making the
case for what we call todaygiving while living and limiting
(13:50):
the lifetime of yourfoundations.
Now, this was not a new idea.
In fact, andrew Carnegie, inthe Gospel of Wealth, also said
that wealthy people should giveaway their money in their
lifetimes.
Carnegie wrote the man who dieswith his wealth intact dies in
disgrace.
But Carnegie himself nevermanaged to do it, whether
(14:13):
because he didn't try hardenough or because his wealth
just kept growing, and so at acame a point around 1910 where
he transferred everything into afoundation, which we know today
is the Carnegie Corporation.
Rosenwald really had the sameidea and articulated it very
(14:35):
well, as not only an obligationto give in one's lifetime, but
he also felt that foundationsthat were set up as permanent
endowments were likely to becometoo bureaucratic.
This was not a politicalargument, as far as we know.
Rosenwald was a Republicanbusinessman of his era, very
(14:58):
much a centrist, a MidwesternRepublican, but that didn't
really enter into hisphilanthropy.
Republican, but that didn'treally enter into his
philanthropy.
He felt that if a foundation isset up to live forever, the
people running it, especiallyafter the initial donor, would
be spending too much timeworrying about preserving the
(15:19):
endowment, avoiding taking risksand so on.
Employment, avoiding takingrisks and so on.
So basically his argument wasfor good philanthropy, you need
to have a limited lifetime givewhile living, and that's what he
did initially.
A lot of his giving went tojewish communal causes,
particularly in chicago,cultural centers and so forth
(15:43):
but then he starts giving toblack yMCA's.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Is this sort of his first foray into?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Yeah, this is always a little bit murky, but I think
he attended a synagogue inChicago whose rabbi knew Booker
T Washington.
Okay, and so connected the two.
Rabbi was a very famous rabbiin the United States at the time
, connected the two andRosenwald started supporting
(16:11):
Washington's school, tuskegeeInstitute in the South and
others like it.
The Washington's thrust wasreally for what today we would
call vocational and technicaltraining for people who, after
all, were the children of freeslaves.
At some point, though,rosenwald asked Washington what
(16:35):
else could he do?
Remember, rosenwald's anentrepreneur and, like most
entrepreneurs, he's looking forthe next thing, and Washington
basically tells him I'msummarizing.
There's an excellent book by awoman who is married to a
Rosenwald descendant on theschools, stephanie Deutsch,
(16:58):
called you need a schoolhouseand I was not going to show very
well, yeah, but I was going toask you this question anyway,
though, so I'm glad we'recalling it out.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
So you need a schoolhouse.
That's a good book on this,right.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
You need a schoolhouse, by Stephanie
Deutsch.
And what Washington toldRosenwald was we're in the in.
In the South and the Statesbelow the Mason Dixon line,
schools were still segregated,which meant for
African-Americans and forespecially rural ones the
(17:31):
quality wasn't very good.
So in 1910, Rosenwald began aprogram that resulted in the
building of 5,000 schools forAfrican-Americans in the South.
You might think of them asearly versions of charter
(17:53):
schools.
They were public schools.
In fact, Rosenwald also gavemoney to the various state
education departments in theSouth to provide for the
oversight of these schools, butthey were run.
They were built, actually, andrun by the communities
(18:13):
themselves.
They were community schools.
And they had to help come upwith the money for these schools
too, right, yes, they did andthey had to come up with the
money, but also a lot of sweatequity.
There were buildings to bringin teachers.
We're talking about the poorestregion in the country and the
poorest parts of that regionneeded housing for schools.
(18:35):
Many of them were elementaryschools.
Some were also junior highschools or junior senior high
schools combined.
The school, for example, fromwhich the young people left to
integrate Central High School inLittle Rock, Arkansas in the
1950s was a Rosenwald JuniorHigh School.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
Yeah, I would assume that, by definition, most of
these schools are fairly smallbecause of yes, they're very
small.
That's why there have to be5,000 of them because of
transportation difficulties andeverything.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
They're basic one-room schoolhouses, yeah, and
so you had multiple grades inthe room and so on, but it was a
great improvement over whatotherwise would have been
available.
Wise would have been available.
In fact.
(19:31):
We estimate I believe it wassomething like a third of the
children being educated at theelementary school in the deep
South over the period 1910through the 1930s were educated
in Rosenwald schools.
Wow, an enormous number.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Was Rosenwald.
Besides the schools themselvesand maybe some.
I don't know if any money didgo from the state boards of
education, I guess for oversightand maintenance and so forth
were there other largephilanthropists that got in on
this?
There was.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
There was a branch of the Rockefeller Foundation, the
Laura Spellman RockefellerFoundation, that was involved,
and several others.
This was a big interest of anumber of philanthropies in the
first third of the 20th century.
In fact, what happened was bythe middle of the 20th century.
(20:21):
They did what foundations do bythe end of the first or during
the depression and commissioneda big study of what we've
accomplished.
What should we do next?
That study eventually turnedout to be an important work in
the development of the civilrights movement.
(20:43):
A book called An AmericanDilemma by Gunnar Myrdal.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
Oh, that's what informed that book that is
exactly what did.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
The foundations wanted to take stock of where
they were.
It was led by the CarnegieFoundation at this point To
finish the Rosenwald story, bythe way.
So he does this over a 20 yearperiod and unfortunately he
passes away in 1932.
The foundation is set to livefor a generation after his death
(21:17):
.
It was called the RosenwaldFund, and so there was a staff
headquartered in Memphis,tennessee, and they continued
with the schools, but they alsoestablished another program that
had enormous effect.
It was the Rosenwald FellowshipProgram, and what it did was
(21:37):
identify African-Americanprofessionals of great talent
and essentially give themfellowship.
These were people already intotheir careers but needed a boost
.
Old-fashioned patronage it was,but it was also a talent search.
There was a lot of talk at thetime of finding the talented
(22:00):
10th the talented 10th yep, andthat's what the Rosenwald Fund
did, and they were verysuccessful.
Among the people they selectedwas the singer Marian Anderson,
the diplomat Ralph Bunche, andall sorts of scientists and
others who went on to greatdistinctions in their career.
(22:22):
Marian Anderson, for example,used her fellowship to go to
France to continue her vocaltraining.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Did I read too, that Langston Hughes and James
Baldwin were also recipients?
It's quite possible I couldn'teven begin.
There were several of them.
I think I read that they hadsome sort of connection with
Rosenwald support.
I think I read that they hadsome sort of connection with
Rosenwald support.
Speaker 2 (22:45):
The fund eventually dissolves, as was Rosenwald's
intention right after the SecondWorld War.
In effect, there's still anumber of Rosenwald-related
foundations, the differentbranches of the family, but the
main one, the Rosenwald Fund,does dissolve as intended.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
So it's hard to imagine more impactful I hate
that word, I can't barely justuse that word but a strategy
that had more effectiveness thanwhat Rosenwald did.
We're talking about somethingthat leads right up to the Civil
Rights Movement of the 1960s.
It raises the groundwork, Ithink everybody agrees.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
In fact, one of the young men who went to a
Rosenwald school turned out tobe John Lewis, the Civil Rights
leader.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
And Maya Angelou too, for that matter.
Maya Angelou.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
You could just trace all sorts of people with ties
back to those schools.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
If you're educating one third of the
African-American kids in theSouth, you're going yeah,
there's going to be a lot offamous people who went through
those schools.
But my point in saying this wasgoing to be here.
You have this very effectivestrategy of the schools and the
fellowships here.
You have this very effectivestrategy of the schools and the
fellowships and then it reallylays the groundwork for the
civil rights movement.
All from a centrist midwesternkind of republican businessman
(24:11):
type.
Exactly curious, it wasn't.
He didn't have a sociallyradical point of view, as far as
we know not.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
As far as I know, he was basically your midern
business.
He was always and I think thisis partly out of his religious
upbringing care for the poor andthe needy was always very
central.
His experience as a Jewrecognizing that discrimination
is something you have to work toovercome, over, overcome, and
(24:50):
then just a vision, which wasactually widely shared at the
time, of what united statesshould be like, where people
have opportunities.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
We were really believed quite strongly in equal
opportunity and this was a waythat he could do something
directly to further it a sense Iguess you could look at the,
the triumph of Rosenwald, as thetriumph of Booker T Washington
and his particular philosophyfor how the African-American
(25:13):
community was going to be raisedup and or raise itself up
socially to something morelooking more like equality.
But is that fair to say?
I?
Speaker 2 (25:24):
think that's true.
Washington, of course, hasbecome more controversial now
than he was when he lived, butit certainly does testify to the
importance of Washington'sphilosophy, though it really
should be noted that in thecontext of his time, his
(25:44):
philosophy was by no meansunique number one.
Also, Rosenwald was involved insupporting other kinds of
efforts for civil rights.
The NAACP, for example, iscreated during this period, and
Rosenwald was among thesupporters.
Was among the supporters.
(26:08):
He did recognize that theobstacles were not only those of
lack of education and training,but laws as well.
This too, this was somethingthe Jewish community generally
recognized.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Yeah, so talk about the National Park Campaign.
How did this?
Speaker 2 (26:23):
come about.
I've been a member for severalyears of an organization whose
mission is to create a nationalhistoric park in honor of Julius
Rosenwald and the Rosenwaldschools.
The genesis of this park reallycame about because it turns out
(26:47):
there are no parks, nothing, nonational parks, historic sites
that commemorate the work of aphilanthropist as important as
philanthropy is in our countrypark or historic site that
(27:09):
commemorates the work of aJewish American and nothing that
commemorates the importance ofthe partnership between the two
groups.
And it was that last point.
We all know that the last yearshave been very difficult in
terms of A variety of things wedon't need to rehearse, but the
idea was we need something thattells a positive story about the
role of philanthropy inAmerican life, of
(27:32):
Jewish-American andAfrican-American partnerships
and so on.
So this began several years agoto create a National Historic
Site to be administered by theNational Park Service as a
permanent reminder of this.
That's what national historicsites do they serve as permanent
(27:52):
reminders.
The site itself is meant toconsist of a museum or visitor's
center in Chicago that willtalk about Rosenwald's work and
the schools.
And then there are maybe wedon't even have an exact number
of the 5,000 schools that werecreated we think about three
(28:15):
dozen at least are stillexisting in some shape or form,
and so the historic site wouldprovide for the National Park
Service to take over perhaps upto six of those schools provide,
upgrade them as necessary,maintain them and then open them
(28:38):
to the public with docents andso on, so you can visit them.
And these schools are invarious parts of the country
Maryland, south Carolina,arkansas, and so on.
So that's the idea for thehistoric site.
So it's not one place, but youmight call it a virtual historic
site.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
It's all part of the same National Historic Park.
They would be right.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Yes, exactly different, and so it's meant to
be a memorial, but also teaching.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
What is the level of support for this, especially in
the south?
Do you have the painful memoryproblem?
Yeah, this is so far so good.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
so where the project stands in, the first step in the
process is to have the NationalPark Service do what you might
call a feasibility study of thisidea of work, and to do that
you need a bill that directs thePark Service to do it, and that
bill was passed in December of2020 with bipartisan support on
(29:46):
the Senate side.
Senator Durbin of Illinois tookthe lead, but the co-sponsor
was Senator Lamar Alexander ofTennessee.
There's also bipartisan supporton the House side, and then it
goes to the White House, since abill does not become law unless
(30:06):
a president signs it, andPresident Trump did sign it.
He understood the importance ofthis, why it was important to
do this.
Feasibility study involvedpublic hearings and all sorts of
stuff, and recommended creationof the historic site, as has
(30:32):
the Department of the Interior.
So it was awaiting furtheraction in Congress but, of
course, in 2024, but that wasnot to be done.
But that was not to be done.
So we are about to see theintroduction of a new bill in
the current Congress.
We know Senator Durbin isprepared to be a co-sponsor and
(30:56):
we're talking to a variety ofRepublican senators at this
point about co-sponsoringSimilarly on the House side am
confident.
Uh, it will be bipartisan again.
There are some costimplications, though.
A lot of the money for thebuildings and so on will have to
be raised privately is thattypical for how these things
(31:17):
work that is how they work thesedays.
the park service basically is astandard setting operation,
provides the docents and thingslike that, but the actual
facilities, collection ofmaterials and so on usually are
financed privately.
(31:39):
On the cusp of actually seeinga piece of legislation to create
the park or the historic parkis re-gearing itself to be a
kind of friends of group thatwill raise the funds and oversee
the collections.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
I would think there would be pretty widespread
interest in this for the reasonsyou mentioned, a sort of
celebration of what can beaccomplished with private
philanthropy, certainly acelebration of something that's
just good, a social good thatwas brought about through
private philanthropy.
Is that your expectation too,that there's going to be a lot
of support?
Speaker 2 (32:19):
Yeah, we have a number of people besides me with
backgrounds in philanthropy onthe governing board of the
campaign and we don't reallythink that fundraising is going
to be a major problem.
Now.
We haven't really started, butall of us have lots of
experience and, I think, have agood idea that this is a very
(32:42):
doable fundraising task.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
And people want to know more about this.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I think it's.
Is it Rosenwaldparkorg?
I believe?
Speaker 1 (32:51):
that's our website.
I double check myself here, yep, so you can go there.
There's actually a lot, lotsand lots of historical stuff.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
You'll see some of the schools that'll be included
in the park.
There's also an excellent videothat we commissioned like you
normally do to promote something, but it really is wonderful and
emphasizes the theme of workingtogether to improve the nation,
which we so badly need today.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yeah, and a great, as I say, we talk about America
250, a great, historical,positive, historical story to
tell an important one.
So, yeah, I wish you luck withit Now.
While I have you, though, we'regoing to get off Rosenwald here
for a little bit.
Switch, switch, okay, break.
I have you here and you're afrequent and incisive
(33:42):
commentator on philanthropy andpolitics.
What do you think?
Or I should say, we'rerecording this, it's February 21
, 2025.
What do you think the newadministration if, at a
whirlwind, five weeks of the newsix weeks of the administration
, what do you expect the impactto be on philanthropy and
nonprofits.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
As you say, we're only one month in.
We live under what I call thetyranny of the hundred days,
which is all presidential terms.
Are supposed to do things in ahundred days and they rush to do
them, create a lot of confusionand chaos and philanthropic
(34:22):
world about what theadministration is doing.
For example, its actionsrelated to USAID actually affect
lots of nonprofits, includingreligious charities that do a
good deal of contracting for AID.
So I'm hearing a lot of that.
(34:42):
I've spoken to lots of peoplein the philanthropic world.
The things to keep in mind,besides the fact that we're only
one month in number one theactual direct actions the
administration has taken need tobe looked at.
Richard Nixon's attorneygeneral, john Mitchell, once
(35:04):
said don't look at what we say,look at what we do, and it's
sometimes hard.
The rhetoric, I know, is verydifficult, but it's important to
look at what the administrationis doing.
Number one a memorandum issuedon heads of federal agencies
(35:27):
that work with nonprofits.
It consisted of two paragraphs.
One was a lot of bluster.
I would have preferred itdidn't, but then.
But there it was.
The second, though, was theoperative paragraph, which
basically instructed theagencies to review their rules,
their guidelines, procedures tomake sure they're consistent
(35:50):
with administration policy.
That's standard operatingprocedure.
I did it in Bush 43 when Iheaded the Corporation for
National Community Service.
So we really have to lookcarefully at what is being done.
A lot of concern about the DEIrules.
(36:11):
Again, there's a lot ofsymbolism here.
I don't want to underestimatethe importance of symbolism, but
when you look at it, most ofwhat the administration is doing
is going back to the SupremeCourt decision and telling
grantees and contractors tocomply with it.
(36:31):
So that's number one.
Number two Congress has yet toweigh in.
We're going to start to see nowwhat happens.
Perfect example A lot ofnonprofits are concerned by an
effort to reduce the amountallowed for overhead expenses by
the National Institutes ofHealth to 15 percent.
(36:54):
Right now, every institutionnegotiates an overhead rate
which could be as high as 60percent or so, could be as high
as 60% or so.
The Trump administration hasproposed a flat 15% rate,
pointing out, not incorrectly,that this is still higher than
(37:16):
private donors often allow.
This is not a new idea.
The first Trump administrationtried exactly the same idea.
What happened?
It was rebuffed by Congress.
The appropriations bills madeit quite clear Can't do this,
and it was repeated many years.
(37:37):
We'll have to see what happensand I'm not drawing any
conclusion about merits here.
Yeah, I'm just saying that theprocess has just begun Already.
I know Senator Britt of Alabamaraised questions about this cut
, so this is an issue and ofcourse it'll affect University
(37:59):
of Alabama and otherinstitutions in her state.
This is a big issue.
It could account for a lot ofsavings, but that the Trump
administration has taken a stepdoesn't mean it will be the
final word.
We'll see where Congress weighsin what I've told groups.
(38:20):
I did a briefing for a group inphilanthropy.
I said difficult as it is.
I did a briefing for a group inphilanthropy.
I said difficult as it is.
Now is the time to recall thefamous World War II motto from
Great Britain keep calm andcarry on.
Non-profit sector should justkeep calm, keep doing what it
(38:43):
does, including advocate forpoints of view that it feels are
not being properly considered.
I think there are going to be alot of those with regard to
international development.
But don't panic.
We have a process here.
We have to go through it.
Obviously, president Trump,elon Musk, jd Vance are very
(39:06):
articulate in expressing theirviews, and that will undoubtedly
rub people the wrong way.
There are lots of people,particularly probationary
employees, who are being let gofrom the federal government.
This is a big mistake.
Creating a climate of fear andanxiety is not a way in any
(39:28):
organization to get goodperformance and I think sooner
or later the Trumpadministration will recognize
this To some extent, already hadto roll back some of these cuts
it moving target.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Yeah, after October 7th and everything that's
happened after that, both abroadand domestically, with protests
and universities and so forth,I would get a call from
reporters several times, well,every couple of months, like,
hey, what do you think theoutcome of all this will be for
philanthropy?
What's going to change?
What is changing?
And it wasn't really my area, Ididn't know enough about that,
(40:03):
but what have you seen withJewish philanthropy perhaps in
particular, maybe philanthropymore broadly, in light of
October 7th, because it seems tome there's been a big light
bulb moment in the last,whatever now 18 months, 16
months.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, I think that's right.
There's going to be animportant new book coming out in
July by a man named JackWertheimer who is the guru on
Jewish philanthropy, and I'veread a long article drawn from
the book and his findings arewe've heard a lot about Jewish
donors withdrawing money fromuniversities where there have
(40:43):
been protests.
That has happened, but it's notthe most important event.
The most important event hasbeen a renewal of support for
Jewish communal organization.
This has been a major issue whythere has, in our country
certainly, and other countries,been a lot of assimilation and
(41:06):
when, say, a Jewish woman or manmarries a non-Jewish man or
woman, chances are funding ofJewish institutions will decline
.
But October 7th has remindedeverybody about their importance
and so we are seeing that Now.
How long that will last is animportant issue, important
(41:29):
question.
The other side of this is thereare there's no question of all
at all and well-documented anincrease in anti-Semitism.
Jewish students I just did anevent here with our Jewish
students are concerned aboutbeing too identifiably Jewish.
(41:50):
This is all unfortunate.
We need good leadership here.
At Indiana University we had anencampment last spring.
The president brought the statepolice in immediately.
President brought the statepolice in immediately.
I'd like to see more leadershiplike that from people who had
(42:11):
institutions of higher education, but also other kinds of
institutions.
It would be very good.
There's also, by the way, agrowing amount of interest in
Jewish Christian Hindu.
Jewish Christian Hindu.
Interestingly, collaboration.
We've worked with groups in theChristian community that want
(42:32):
to do something about risinganti-Semitism.
Same with Hindus Interesting,so we may see lots developing
Hindus.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
I didn't know about Catholics and Christians.
I did through an organizationcalled the Filos Project.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Yes, that's exactly the one we've been working with.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
Yeah, on the Christian side to highlight and
expose and address this to mejust absolutely bonkers.
Insane rise in anti-Semitism,not just on the fringy or highly
progressive left but also onthe right.
Maybe it'd be good in the endtoo.
Speaker 2 (43:09):
It certainly is very good for Jewish students to know
that they are not alone.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Telling the, as we said, the very inspiring,
positive story of JuliusRosenwald and what he
accomplished maybe is one way todo that.
Thanks, les, for what you'redoing on that project and for
joining us here today.
Speaker 2 (43:27):
My pleasure.
Thank you very much, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
Appreciate you as always.
Thanks, my friend.
Hey, thanks for joining us fortoday's podcast.
If you enjoyed it, we inviteyou to subscribe and or rate and
or review us on YouTube, apple,spotify or wherever you listen
to our podcasts.
Thanks a lot.
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