February 26, 2025 • 28 mins
🎙️ Feeling stuck in a script someone else wrote for your life? Today’s guest, Dr. Anne-Laure Le Cunff, knows exactly how that feels—and she’s here to share her powerful journey from Google to neuroscience. 💡
Despite following the "perfect" roadmap to success—great school, prestigious job, checking all the boxes—Anne-Laure felt empty and out of alignment. So, she made a bold decision: she left it all behind to pursue her passion for understanding the mind. And what she discovered is life-changing: success isn’t about following a script. It’s about experimenting, embracing curiosity, and evolving toward your ever-changing goals.
In this episode, we dive into:
✨ How to break free from the arrival fallacy
✨ Replacing linear success with circular growth
✨ Cultivating curiosity in a world that values certainty
✨ Why tiny experiments can lead to massive transformation
📖 Plus, we talk about Anne-Laure’s upcoming book, Tiny Experiments: How to Live Freely in a Goal-Obsessed World! Pre-order now to unlock incredible bonuses, including a workshop, a mindful productivity guide, and more.
đź”— Links Mentioned:
💻 Anne Laure’s Website
đź“š Pre-order Tiny Experiments: tinyexperiments.org
🎧 Tune in to discover how you can ditch the script, embrace uncertainty, and unlock infinite possibilities! If you loved this episode, don’t forget to like, comment, and subscribe for more inspiring conversations.
đź’¬ What tiny experiment will you try today?Â
#Curiosity #MindsetShift #PersonalGrowth #GlassCeilingsAndStickyFloors #PodcastInterview #SuccessBeyondTheScript
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-20 (00:00):
Today's guest, Dr.
(00:01):
Anne Laure Lecomte, has a storyto share that I think, scratch
that, y'all, I know it is goingto resonate with you.
Now, despite going to a goodschool, working at the Google
and doing all the right things,Anne Laure felt empty.
She felt as if she was livingsomeone else's life, someone
(00:21):
else's dream.
And she decided that, nope, I'mnot going to do that anymore.
So she followed her lifelongcuriosity about the mind and
began a neuroscience PhD, whichisn't that what we all do?
Yeah, right.
Hell no! We don't all do that,so I can't wait to dive in.
Because when she did that, shediscovered that success isn't
(00:43):
about following a script.
It's about experimenting withyour interests and using the
results as a guide on the pathtowards your ever evolving
goals.
And to me, that is so powerfulbecause these goals are always
changing and shifting.
So y'all, you are listening tothe Glass Ceiling and Sticky
Floor Podcast, the podcast thatwill empower you to shatter
(01:05):
limiting beliefs and toxicbehaviors to uncover infinite
possibilities, so you can liveyour best life.
I'm Erika Rooney, and I'm on amission to bring more women into
positions of power and keep themthere.
I'm obsessed with all thingsgrowth and abundance, and I'm
here to talk you through thetried and true secrets to get
you to level up your career andyour life.
(01:26):
We talk about the hard stuffhere.
Imposter syndrome,perfectionism, fear, and
burnout.
So pull up a seat, pop in anearbud, and let's dive in.
But Ann, Laura, welcome to thepodcast.
It is so great to have you.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_1 (01:41):
Thanks so much for having me.
What a great introduction.
I think this is the best summaryof my work I've ever heard.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024 (01:48):
Well, I love it, but I need to hear
this story because you don'tjust wake up and quit Google and
then go get a PhD inneuroscience.
So I'm going to need you tospill those details.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11-12 (01:58):
It really all started when I
realized while I was at Googlethat although I loved my work, I
loved my team, I was working onexciting projects, I had a sense
of emptiness.
I was a little bit bored andalso burned out at the same
time.
Bored out and burned out.
(02:18):
And the reason why is because itreally felt like someone had
spoiled the movie for me.
I knew already.
What I was supposed to do inorder to be successful.
I had an exact script in my mindas to what I was supposed to
work on with whom and when, so Icould climb the lab there and be
successful, keep on gettingpromoted and having a career
(02:41):
that was considered successfulbased on the criteria that they
had at Google.
And because of that, I felt likeI needed to explore something
else.
I need to do somethingdifferent.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_091 (02:55):
I love that.
And, I love that you said youfeel like somebody spoiled the
movie for you.
Because we are all given thatexact same roadmap to success.
Like, I don't know anotherperson that hasn't gotten that
little manual, the playbook,whatever you want to call it,
that says, go to school, getgood grades, check, right?
(03:15):
You know, try to get married andhave a great relationship and 2.
5 babies, check.
Do this promotion, thatpromotion, climb the ladder, And
all of those things, and yousaid they spoiled the movie, but
here's, here's also where I findthe twist with this, Anne Laure,
is that the, the ending isn'twhat they promised, you know,
like, even though you said theyspoiled the movie ending, like,
(03:37):
I do think that they spoiled it,but I also think that the movie
ending I was told I was going toget wasn't the movie ending that
I was actually getting.
Do you feel the same way?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_1 (03:48):
That's really interesting because I
think even more accurately, it'snot necessarily that you don't
get the ending that you want,it's more that you don't feel
the way you thought you wouldonce you get to that ending.
And a lot of successful people,they picture in their mind, this
is what psychologists actuallycall the arrival fallacy, they
feel like, once I get this, OnceI'm successful in this very
(04:13):
precise, predefined way, then Iwill be happy.
And then two things can happen.
Either you don't get there, andthen you're disappointed.
That makes sense, right?
But quite often, You do getthere and still you're
disappointed because you realizethat all along your happiness
was not necessarily tied to thisoutcome and that getting this
(04:36):
result was not the thing thatwas going to make you feel
fulfilled and alive and happy.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_0 (04:44):
So, why do you think?
Well, maybe I should, this iskind of like a two part thing,
but like, why do you think wealways tie our happiness to the
outcome?
And I'll start with that.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11- (04:57):
This gives us the illusion of
control.
We feel like if we can define aspecific milestone, something to
obtain, and then we can kind ofdefine a plan, draw a map in
order to get there.
Then we are in control of ourlives.
(05:18):
This is a lot more reassuringthan the alternative, which is
to accept that the future isuncertain.
Very often, we have no idea whatwe're doing.
We're figuring it out as we goand we have to find happiness.
In the chaos of everydaymoments, in the chaos of change
(05:39):
and in that chaos ofuncertainty.
So this is really about controland more accurately the illusion
of control.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024 (05:48):
Okay.
I love that because the secondpiece of the question that I
wanted to ask you was like this,how?
So now you're kind of leading meto the question of like, how do
I let go of that control?
Because when you said illusionof control, girl, I wrote it
down and I circled it because ifthat does not show you a picture
of who Erica Rooney is trying tocontrol all the things.
(06:09):
I don't know what does.
So how do we work on shiftingthat mindset?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11- (06:14):
It's really about, I love that you
say shifting our mindset becausethis is really what it is about.
It's about shifting our mindsetfrom fearing uncertainty to
approaching it with curiosity.
To seeing doubt as anopportunity for growth and self
discovery and really, andobviously, you know, I'm a bit
(06:35):
biased because this is what I dofor a living.
I'm a scientist, but this isreally about becoming the
scientist of your own life.
Starting approaching thosemoments of doubt and uncertainty
as an opportunity forexperimentation, for asking
questions, for exploration.
(06:55):
Once you start doing this, thenyou'll open a lot more new doors
that will allow you to grow in away that's more generative and
less predictable.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_09 (07:05):
Oh my goodness.
And I know a lot of your workcenters around inner curiosity.
And so I would love to hear yourperspective because as kids, we
are so curious and I have twomyself.
They are six and nine.
And you know, that question ofwhy and how it will drive My
sanity right out the door,right?
But I also want to celebratethat for them.
(07:28):
But to back, to get back to myquestion, why do you think our
inner curiosity gets quiet as weget older, yet our outside
voices are amplified?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11 (07:43):
Think about it.
What are you getting paid for atwork to provide answers, right?
You are paid based on your levelof expertise.
So the more you sound like.
you know what you're doing, themore you sound like you have
certainty, the more likely youare to progress on that carrier
(08:09):
ladder, that traditional carrierladder that has very clear steps
in terms of what you're supposedto prove you're able to
accomplish in order to get ontothe next rung.
And so it feels like it's in ourinterest to express certainty
rather than to expresscuriosity.
As we grow up as adults, and itstarts as early as in school,
(08:31):
where if you look again atassessments and the way school
works, you are being rewardedfor being the one who can answer
correctly, not being theannoying kid who keeps raising
their hands and asking questionsand interrupting the teacher
because they want to understandwhy, why, why.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_ (08:49):
Hmm.
You know, it's so timely becauseOn the way to carpool this
morning with all of theneighborhood kids in the car,
they were bickering back andforth about something.
And I was like, why do youalways need to be right?
And it was talking about justthis need to be right.
And I even said to my son, Isaid, what does that give you?
What does being right give you?
(09:12):
Because the reality is theanswer is just self
gratification, right?
Like you're just happy thatyou're right.
And.
I love this mindset shift tostay in the curious, right?
And to be curious about all thethings instead of just demanding
to be right.
Because we don't live in a blackand white world.
(09:34):
Like, we live in a world filledwith shades of gray.
And so I think that, yeah.
inner curiosity.
We need to even focus more onamplifying that.
Wouldn't you say so?
I
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11-1 (09:42):
I'm so glad you're mentioning this
because you talked about selfgratification, but I also think
that the reason why a lot ofpeople want to be right is
because it gives them this fullsense of confidence as well.
When in reality, true confidenceis being able to say, I actually
(10:03):
don't know.
I don't have enough data to makea decision or to have a strong
opinion on this.
I don't know, living in thisuncertainty, in this state of
unknowing actually requiresquite a bit of courage.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024 (10:19):
would absolutely agree.
And especially as, as someonewho did climb all the way up to
the C suite, I remember when Ifirst got into those positions,
I felt such pressure, whetherthat was internal or external,
really probably a mixture ofboth to have all of the answers.
So with your expertise, Whatwould you say to someone who's
(10:41):
like, I really struggle withthat because I want to show up
with all of the answers.
I want to be competent andconfident.
What advice would you give them?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11-1 (10:52):
You can actually be perceived as an
expert without coming to thetable with definitive answers.
I think what people appreciatewhen they work with others is to
see that you've been thinkingabout different possibilities,
different contingencies.
And so instead of coming to ameeting or a work conversation
and saying, Hey, here's thesolution.
(11:14):
You can just shift it a littlebit and say, Hey, here's the
problem we've been facing andhere are three potential
solutions I've been thinkingabout, but I'm not claiming to
have all of the necessary datato make that decision.
And this is why we're havingthis conversation.
I want to brainstorm together.
I want to make this decisiontogether.
What do you think?
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024 (11:36):
Well, I love the fact because you
completely just changed, uh, andunlocked like a perspective for
me, which is, you can be anexpert without having all the
answers.
And I think we often forgetthat.
Like we expect, if I'm theexpert, I do know everything,
but there's so much more powerin kind of reframing it and
(11:57):
stating it the way that you justdid.
And that kind of leads me to mynext question, which I know with
your work, you talk a lot aboutreplacing that linear success,
which is what we talked aboutfirst, right?
If I do this and then this, andI'm following.
My movie script, you know, so ifwe're following that linear
success you talk about replacingthat with circular growth.
(12:20):
First of all, talk to me aboutwhat is circular growth and then
how do we go about making thatshift from replacing linear
success.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11-1 (12:31):
The big difference between linear
success and circular growth isthat for linear success, as you
said, you go A, then B, then C,then D, and you kind of rely on
having a clear idea of whereyou're going in order to grow.
With circular growth, you don'tnecessarily know where you're
going.
And this is adapted from theexperimental cycle in science,
(12:53):
where you start Withobservation, you look around you
and you're like, what's thestatus quo?
How are things working rightnow?
And then you ask a question, howcould things be different?
You make a hypothesis, you testit, you collect data.
And based on that data, youtweak your approach, which is
going to change the status quo.
(13:16):
And you can start observingagain, what are the effects of
those changes that you haveimplemented?
And in this way, every time yougo around that cycle.
You grow, but not in a way thatis predictable, not in a way
that is linear.
And again, that does require thecourage to sit in that
uncertainty while you grow,because you don't have a clear
(13:37):
path in front of you.
But when you look back two orthree or four years later, you
look back on your growth, you'llbe surprised as to everything
you have accomplished, becausethere was no way you could have
mapped it out in advance.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_091 (13:52):
I almost believe that that makes
it possible to grow even morethan you would if you were just
taking these You know, linearsteps from a all the way to Z.
Whereas when I'm thinking aboutthis growth, I'm seeing the
circle just expand and expandover time.
And it's almost like you can'teven predict those growth jumps
(14:15):
that you're able to make whenyou look at it through that
lens.
Do you find that people are ableto?
You know, I don't want to saygrow more, but maybe just like
lean into that growth in adifferent way when they're going
more in that, you know,cyclical, cyclical, I don't know
the right word route.
(14:35):
You get my drift.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11 (14:37):
Yeah, if by growing you mean exploring
things, accomplishing things,learning things that they would
have not been able to imaginethey were capable of in the
first place, then absolutely.
Because if you have thiscircular approach to growth,
(14:58):
every time you go around and youcomplete a cycle.
you will reimagine what'spossible for you based on the
current data.
Whereas with a linear approach,you can only do what you're
capable of imagining right now.
And I really want to encourageanyone listening to this and
just thinking about What youthought you were capable of
(15:21):
maybe 10 years ago versus whereyou are today.
Chances are, there are a lot ofthings you can do today and
things you have accomplishedthat would have been impossible
for you to just imagine were inthe realm of possibility for
you.
If you apply in a moresystematic manner.
this circular model of growth,then you will just have more of
(15:42):
these things in your life, moreof these things in your career.
This is really what it'sdesigned for.
It's really made for leveragingyour curiosity on an everyday
basis.
So you can look back in a fewyears and feel like, wow, there
was no way I could have imaginedthat I would be here today.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024 (16:02):
Well, that is so powerful.
And I'm a big fan of likelooking back at the breadcrumbs
because success leaves clues andI think that it can be so hard
to see how much you've grown andhow far you've come when you're
only sitting in that moment,right?
But when you take that time, asyou said, to reflect back on
where were you 10 years ago?
Where were you 5 years ago?
(16:24):
I mean, I'll tell you.
I wouldn't be in this seattalking to you today, having a
book, having a podcast, being anentrepreneur five years ago,
that would have never entered myimagination.
And that's why I think it's soimportant to kind of bring it
back to what you said at thebeginning is these ever changing
goals.
And I want to offer this toanyone who's listening, because
(16:45):
this has been a game changer forme is, you know, that quote,
like, well, I'll believe it whenI see it.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11- (16:50):
Yes.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-20 (16:50):
telling me, you don't believe it.
Right.
But I'll believe it.
Okay.
Then I'll see it.
So like if you can envision itin your brain, then you can make
it happen.
And it always makes me thinkabout, um, the, the brothers who
invented the airplane.
Like people must have thoughtthey were bananas.
You want to get into a motorizedobject in the air?
(17:13):
Like you're crazy right now.
Could you imagine not having anairplane?
And it's like, so you have toreally get it, get into that
curiosity mindset, the inventorlike mindset.
to really expand on what'spossible.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11 (17:29):
Yeah.
And, uh, in the case of theairplane, it ended up working
out, which is great, right?
But another thing that'simportant when you start having
this more experimental mindsetis to know that there is really
no such thing as failure in theworld.
anymore because the goal is notto get to a specific milestone
(17:50):
anymore.
The goal is to learn somethingnew.
And so in the case of theairplane, that worked out right.
But if they had triedeverything, they completed the
experimental cycle that didn'twork out, then they would know
And they would try somethingdifferent and, you know, we
would have maybe another way offlying that is not what it looks
like today.
But there's no way for you tomake that kind of progress if
(18:12):
you don't give it a try.
So each cycle, even if theoutcome is, Huh, that didn't
work out.
Or maybe I don't like that.
I'm not sure this career path isfor me.
Or I'm not sure I want to workon these kind of projects.
That's fine.
You learn something.
There's no such thing as failurewhen you're collecting data that
you can use for your nextexperimental cycle.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024 (18:34):
Y'all that is like huge is all of
these experimental cycles.
And this leads me to alsosomething I really want to talk
about, which y'all Dr.
Anlor has a book coming out.
It's going to be coming out inMarch.
So get your Amazons up, get thatpre order button ready to click.
Cause you're going to want thisbook to land in your hands.
the day it comes out.
(18:54):
And this is a book that's calledtiny experiments, how to live
freely in a goal obsessed world.
And y'all, you know, I'm goalobsessed, so I cannot wait to
get my hands on this book.
But.
Dr.
Ann Lohr, please tell me what isthis book about?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11- (19:12):
It's about a lot of the things that
we've talked about togethertoday.
It's really about having a moreexperimental mindset.
I wrote this for myself firstand for everybody who's like me,
like you, and like I'm sure manypeople who are listening to this
today.
People who are highly ambitiousand highly curious and who feel
(19:35):
like there might be somethingmore.
out there, but you don'tnecessarily have the right tools
in order to explore thosedifferent possibilities because
so far they have been relying onthe more linear model of
success.
So I'm providing alternativetools that are based on science,
but there are not Complicated oranything like that.
(19:56):
There's no jargon.
It's very simple tools that youcan apply on an everyday basis
at work and in your life toexperiment with where you want
to go, what you want to do andwho you want to become.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_ (20:09):
Mmm.
And y'all, here's why you needto pre order this book.
Because when you pre order it,you guys, she has a tiny
experiments workshop.
She's got a productivity, amindful productivity guide
written by herself, which y'all,remember, she's a
neuroscientist, so it's gonna begood.
She's got a book.
A behind the book exclusivevideo walkthrough also nine life
(20:32):
changing tiny experiments.
So I am going to challenge allof you today to go ahead and
preorder the book and we can allwalk through these life changing
tiny experiments together.
And when you wrote this book,who did you write it for?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11-1 (20:49):
For my younger self, really for the
person who thought that she hadto stay at Google in order to be
successful and, uh, for anyonereally who's like her today and
who wants to explore otherpossibilities.
And again, I just want to saythat if after conducting some
(21:12):
tiny experiments, the answer isthat you do want to stay in that
big corporate job, that's greattoo.
This is all about being moreexperimental, being more
intentional.
So then you know that where youwant to go is actually where you
want to go.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_0 (21:27):
Oh, I love that.
Because I mean, this is a very,like for me, this is like
therapy for me y'all, because asyou know, I recently left
corporate and I'm all on my ownand I've got my book and all of
these things, and there's a lotof unknown, right?
There is.
I am all up in that life ofuncertainty right now.
But the cool thing aboutuncertainty y'all is when you
(21:48):
are in uncertainty, you are alsoat the doorstep of infinite
possibility.
And so you can go anywhere.
Do anything, you know, thefuture is yours.
And Dr.
Anlor's book really kind of tiesa lot of that in, because guess
what y'all, if all of thisfails, if my book flops, if I
(22:09):
decide, Oh my God, I can neverbe an entrepreneur again.
Guess what?
Maybe I go back to corporate.
Who knows?
Who cares?
Guess what, y'all?
That ain't going to happen.
I'm going to be the next MelRobbins, but I'm just saying,
okay.
And what I love about her bookis she really leans into getting
comfortable with ambiguity, eventhough your brain is screaming
(22:30):
for certainty.
And that is definitely an area Istruggle with.
So Dr.
Anlor, what would you say, whatwould you say would be the
number one thing that someoneshould do when they really
struggle?
with uncertainty.
How can they get comfortablestepping into that?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_1 (22:49):
number one thing you can do when you're
feeling anxious because thingsare a little bit uncertain is to
stop trying to find a solutionfor a second, which I know can
be hard for problem solvers andpeople who like getting things
done.
Just, Pose and put yourself in aplace of observation.
I like to call this selfanthropology because the idea is
(23:13):
to become an anthropologist ofyour own life.
And just like an anthropologistgoes to a different place and
studies a different culture andasks, why are they doing things
the way they're doing them?
Or why are they worried aboutthis?
Why do they talk about thisthing so much?
You can do the same thing withyour own life.
with your worries, with thethings that you keep on thinking
(23:35):
about, without any selfjudgment, just a neutral
observer looking at what's goingon and asking, Hey, why is it
we're so worried about this?
And when you do that, you justgive yourself and your brain a
little bit of breathing space.
So you can figure out what youwant to do next, not based on
(23:56):
the anxiety, But based on yourcuriosity,
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024 (24:01):
Okay, y'all, we are replacing judgment
with curiosity.
That is this week's assignment.
It's a big one.
So you can have all week to doit.
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
This is the one question I loveto ask every single person that
is on my show.
It's what I end with.
And I am so curious for youranswer, but if you could go back
in time to being a Googler,right?
(24:22):
Having all of the.
Outward success, doing all ofthe things, checking all the
boxes, but feeling just sodefeated inside.
So bored out, burned out all thethings as you said, what piece
of advice would you give that inlaw today?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11 (24:41):
reach out for help, because I thought,
and especially being a woman inthe corporate world at the time
in tech, where there were notthat many of us on my team, I
just felt like I had to looklike I got it all figured out.
And so instead of raising myhand and saying, Hey, I think
I'm struggling a little bithere.
(25:02):
I would just try to fixeverything on my own.
And I actually had amazingcolleagues who I know would have
been able to help me at thetime, but I felt like it would
have been a sign of weakness ifI did that.
So this is not a big piece ofadvice or saying that that's the
decision I should have made atthe time, but more on an
(25:22):
everyday basis.
asking for help because I thinka lot of people around us do
want to help us if we let themknow that we need the help.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_ (25:31):
They do.
That is also a sticky floor ofmine.
Y'all is asking for help.
And so I have to constantly leaninto what I like to call my zone
of discomfort which is askingfor help because the magic about
your discomfort zone is it getssmaller the more you lean into
(25:51):
it and your comfort zoneexpands.
Oh my gosh, Dr.
Ann Lohr, this is amazing.
I cannot wait to get my hands onyour book.
So if people want to work withyou, if they want to grab the
book, number one, I'm going toput all the links in the show
notes, but tell me how can theyget in touch with you.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11-12 (26:08):
So my website is nestlabs.
com.
I have a newsletter that I sendevery week about a lot of the
topics that we talked abouttoday.
And to pre order the book, youneed to go to tinyexperiments.
org.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_ (26:20):
Yay.
All right.
Thank you so much.
It was amazing.
I cannot wait to get my hands onthis book.
If you are listening, you'regoing to have to hit me up.
Tell me what you think about it.
Tell me what tiny experimentyou're choosing today, but Dr.
Anlor, thank you so much.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_1 (26:35):
Thanks so much, Erika.
Oh my gosh, what an incredibleconversation that was with Dr.
Ann LOR.
Today.
Now if there's one thing that Ihope that you take away from
this episode, it's this.
That your path to success doesnot have to follow someone
(26:55):
else's script.
You all life is about curiosity.
It's about growth and it isabout those tiny experiences.
It is about those tinyexperiments.
That opened the door to infinitepossibilities.
And here's your challenge forthe week?
What is one tiny experiment thatyou can try today?
(27:19):
Maybe it's asking a newquestion.
Maybe it's exploring a differentpath or simply pausing to
reflect, but whatever it is, Iwant you to do it.
You might just surpriseyourself.
But if you loved this episode,please remember to rate, review
and subscribe as it really doeshelp it land in the hands of the
person.
That needs to hear it most.
(27:39):
And don't forget to go out thereand grab Dr.
Ann Laura's book today.
It's called tiny experiments.
Pre-order that sucker so thatyou have it in your hand, on the
day that it goes live, but allof the links are in the show
notes.
And as always y'all remember theonly ceilings that exist are the
ones we place over ourselves.
Let's smash them together.
Today's guest, Dr.
(00:01):
Anne Laure Lecomte, has a storyto share that I think, scratch
that, y'all, I know it is goingto resonate with you.
Now, despite going to a goodschool, working at the Google
and doing all the right things,Anne Laure felt empty.
She felt as if she was livingsomeone else's life, someone
(00:21):
else's dream.
And she decided that, nope, I'mnot going to do that anymore.
So she followed her lifelongcuriosity about the mind and
began a neuroscience PhD, whichisn't that what we all do?
Yeah, right.
Hell no! We don't all do that,so I can't wait to dive in.
Because when she did that, shediscovered that success isn't
(00:43):
about following a script.
It's about experimenting withyour interests and using the
results as a guide on the pathtowards your ever evolving
goals.
And to me, that is so powerfulbecause these goals are always
changing and shifting.
So y'all, you are listening tothe Glass Ceiling and Sticky
Floor Podcast, the podcast thatwill empower you to shatter
(01:05):
limiting beliefs and toxicbehaviors to uncover infinite
possibilities, so you can liveyour best life.
I'm Erika Rooney, and I'm on amission to bring more women into
positions of power and keep themthere.
I'm obsessed with all thingsgrowth and abundance, and I'm
here to talk you through thetried and true secrets to get
you to level up your career andyour life.
(01:26):
We talk about the hard stuffhere.
Imposter syndrome,perfectionism, fear, and
burnout.
So pull up a seat, pop in anearbud, and let's dive in.
But Ann, Laura, welcome to thepodcast.
It is so great to have you.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_1 (01:41):
Thanks so much for having me.
What a great introduction.
I think this is the best summaryof my work I've ever heard.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024 (01:48):
Well, I love it, but I need to hear
this story because you don'tjust wake up and quit Google and
then go get a PhD inneuroscience.
So I'm going to need you tospill those details.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11-12 (01:58):
It really all started when I
realized while I was at Googlethat although I loved my work, I
loved my team, I was working onexciting projects, I had a sense
of emptiness.
I was a little bit bored andalso burned out at the same
time.
Bored out and burned out.
(02:18):
And the reason why is because itreally felt like someone had
spoiled the movie for me.
I knew already.
What I was supposed to do inorder to be successful.
I had an exact script in my mindas to what I was supposed to
work on with whom and when, so Icould climb the lab there and be
successful, keep on gettingpromoted and having a career
(02:41):
that was considered successfulbased on the criteria that they
had at Google.
And because of that, I felt likeI needed to explore something
else.
I need to do somethingdifferent.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_091 (02:55):
I love that.
And, I love that you said youfeel like somebody spoiled the
movie for you.
Because we are all given thatexact same roadmap to success.
Like, I don't know anotherperson that hasn't gotten that
little manual, the playbook,whatever you want to call it,
that says, go to school, getgood grades, check, right?
(03:15):
You know, try to get married andhave a great relationship and 2.
5 babies, check.
Do this promotion, thatpromotion, climb the ladder, And
all of those things, and yousaid they spoiled the movie, but
here's, here's also where I findthe twist with this, Anne Laure,
is that the, the ending isn'twhat they promised, you know,
like, even though you said theyspoiled the movie ending, like,
(03:37):
I do think that they spoiled it,but I also think that the movie
ending I was told I was going toget wasn't the movie ending that
I was actually getting.
Do you feel the same way?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_1 (03:48):
That's really interesting because I
think even more accurately, it'snot necessarily that you don't
get the ending that you want,it's more that you don't feel
the way you thought you wouldonce you get to that ending.
And a lot of successful people,they picture in their mind, this
is what psychologists actuallycall the arrival fallacy, they
feel like, once I get this, OnceI'm successful in this very
(04:13):
precise, predefined way, then Iwill be happy.
And then two things can happen.
Either you don't get there, andthen you're disappointed.
That makes sense, right?
But quite often, You do getthere and still you're
disappointed because you realizethat all along your happiness
was not necessarily tied to thisoutcome and that getting this
(04:36):
result was not the thing thatwas going to make you feel
fulfilled and alive and happy.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_0 (04:44):
So, why do you think?
Well, maybe I should, this iskind of like a two part thing,
but like, why do you think wealways tie our happiness to the
outcome?
And I'll start with that.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11- (04:57):
This gives us the illusion of
control.
We feel like if we can define aspecific milestone, something to
obtain, and then we can kind ofdefine a plan, draw a map in
order to get there.
Then we are in control of ourlives.
(05:18):
This is a lot more reassuringthan the alternative, which is
to accept that the future isuncertain.
Very often, we have no idea whatwe're doing.
We're figuring it out as we goand we have to find happiness.
In the chaos of everydaymoments, in the chaos of change
(05:39):
and in that chaos ofuncertainty.
So this is really about controland more accurately the illusion
of control.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024 (05:48):
Okay.
I love that because the secondpiece of the question that I
wanted to ask you was like this,how?
So now you're kind of leading meto the question of like, how do
I let go of that control?
Because when you said illusionof control, girl, I wrote it
down and I circled it because ifthat does not show you a picture
of who Erica Rooney is trying tocontrol all the things.
(06:09):
I don't know what does.
So how do we work on shiftingthat mindset?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11- (06:14):
It's really about, I love that you
say shifting our mindset becausethis is really what it is about.
It's about shifting our mindsetfrom fearing uncertainty to
approaching it with curiosity.
To seeing doubt as anopportunity for growth and self
discovery and really, andobviously, you know, I'm a bit
(06:35):
biased because this is what I dofor a living.
I'm a scientist, but this isreally about becoming the
scientist of your own life.
Starting approaching thosemoments of doubt and uncertainty
as an opportunity forexperimentation, for asking
questions, for exploration.
(06:55):
Once you start doing this, thenyou'll open a lot more new doors
that will allow you to grow in away that's more generative and
less predictable.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_09 (07:05):
Oh my goodness.
And I know a lot of your workcenters around inner curiosity.
And so I would love to hear yourperspective because as kids, we
are so curious and I have twomyself.
They are six and nine.
And you know, that question ofwhy and how it will drive My
sanity right out the door,right?
But I also want to celebratethat for them.
(07:28):
But to back, to get back to myquestion, why do you think our
inner curiosity gets quiet as weget older, yet our outside
voices are amplified?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11 (07:43):
Think about it.
What are you getting paid for atwork to provide answers, right?
You are paid based on your levelof expertise.
So the more you sound like.
you know what you're doing, themore you sound like you have
certainty, the more likely youare to progress on that carrier
(08:09):
ladder, that traditional carrierladder that has very clear steps
in terms of what you're supposedto prove you're able to
accomplish in order to get ontothe next rung.
And so it feels like it's in ourinterest to express certainty
rather than to expresscuriosity.
As we grow up as adults, and itstarts as early as in school,
(08:31):
where if you look again atassessments and the way school
works, you are being rewardedfor being the one who can answer
correctly, not being theannoying kid who keeps raising
their hands and asking questionsand interrupting the teacher
because they want to understandwhy, why, why.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_ (08:49):
Hmm.
You know, it's so timely becauseOn the way to carpool this
morning with all of theneighborhood kids in the car,
they were bickering back andforth about something.
And I was like, why do youalways need to be right?
And it was talking about justthis need to be right.
And I even said to my son, Isaid, what does that give you?
What does being right give you?
(09:12):
Because the reality is theanswer is just self
gratification, right?
Like you're just happy thatyou're right.
And.
I love this mindset shift tostay in the curious, right?
And to be curious about all thethings instead of just demanding
to be right.
Because we don't live in a blackand white world.
(09:34):
Like, we live in a world filledwith shades of gray.
And so I think that, yeah.
inner curiosity.
We need to even focus more onamplifying that.
Wouldn't you say so?
I
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11-1 (09:42):
I'm so glad you're mentioning this
because you talked about selfgratification, but I also think
that the reason why a lot ofpeople want to be right is
because it gives them this fullsense of confidence as well.
When in reality, true confidenceis being able to say, I actually
(10:03):
don't know.
I don't have enough data to makea decision or to have a strong
opinion on this.
I don't know, living in thisuncertainty, in this state of
unknowing actually requiresquite a bit of courage.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024 (10:19):
would absolutely agree.
And especially as, as someonewho did climb all the way up to
the C suite, I remember when Ifirst got into those positions,
I felt such pressure, whetherthat was internal or external,
really probably a mixture ofboth to have all of the answers.
So with your expertise, Whatwould you say to someone who's
(10:41):
like, I really struggle withthat because I want to show up
with all of the answers.
I want to be competent andconfident.
What advice would you give them?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11-1 (10:52):
You can actually be perceived as an
expert without coming to thetable with definitive answers.
I think what people appreciatewhen they work with others is to
see that you've been thinkingabout different possibilities,
different contingencies.
And so instead of coming to ameeting or a work conversation
and saying, Hey, here's thesolution.
(11:14):
You can just shift it a littlebit and say, Hey, here's the
problem we've been facing andhere are three potential
solutions I've been thinkingabout, but I'm not claiming to
have all of the necessary datato make that decision.
And this is why we're havingthis conversation.
I want to brainstorm together.
I want to make this decisiontogether.
What do you think?
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024 (11:36):
Well, I love the fact because you
completely just changed, uh, andunlocked like a perspective for
me, which is, you can be anexpert without having all the
answers.
And I think we often forgetthat.
Like we expect, if I'm theexpert, I do know everything,
but there's so much more powerin kind of reframing it and
(11:57):
stating it the way that you justdid.
And that kind of leads me to mynext question, which I know with
your work, you talk a lot aboutreplacing that linear success,
which is what we talked aboutfirst, right?
If I do this and then this, andI'm following.
My movie script, you know, so ifwe're following that linear
success you talk about replacingthat with circular growth.
(12:20):
First of all, talk to me aboutwhat is circular growth and then
how do we go about making thatshift from replacing linear
success.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11-1 (12:31):
The big difference between linear
success and circular growth isthat for linear success, as you
said, you go A, then B, then C,then D, and you kind of rely on
having a clear idea of whereyou're going in order to grow.
With circular growth, you don'tnecessarily know where you're
going.
And this is adapted from theexperimental cycle in science,
(12:53):
where you start Withobservation, you look around you
and you're like, what's thestatus quo?
How are things working rightnow?
And then you ask a question, howcould things be different?
You make a hypothesis, you testit, you collect data.
And based on that data, youtweak your approach, which is
going to change the status quo.
(13:16):
And you can start observingagain, what are the effects of
those changes that you haveimplemented?
And in this way, every time yougo around that cycle.
You grow, but not in a way thatis predictable, not in a way
that is linear.
And again, that does require thecourage to sit in that
uncertainty while you grow,because you don't have a clear
(13:37):
path in front of you.
But when you look back two orthree or four years later, you
look back on your growth, you'llbe surprised as to everything
you have accomplished, becausethere was no way you could have
mapped it out in advance.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_091 (13:52):
I almost believe that that makes
it possible to grow even morethan you would if you were just
taking these You know, linearsteps from a all the way to Z.
Whereas when I'm thinking aboutthis growth, I'm seeing the
circle just expand and expandover time.
And it's almost like you can'teven predict those growth jumps
(14:15):
that you're able to make whenyou look at it through that
lens.
Do you find that people are ableto?
You know, I don't want to saygrow more, but maybe just like
lean into that growth in adifferent way when they're going
more in that, you know,cyclical, cyclical, I don't know
the right word route.
(14:35):
You get my drift.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11 (14:37):
Yeah, if by growing you mean exploring
things, accomplishing things,learning things that they would
have not been able to imaginethey were capable of in the
first place, then absolutely.
Because if you have thiscircular approach to growth,
(14:58):
every time you go around and youcomplete a cycle.
you will reimagine what'spossible for you based on the
current data.
Whereas with a linear approach,you can only do what you're
capable of imagining right now.
And I really want to encourageanyone listening to this and
just thinking about What youthought you were capable of
(15:21):
maybe 10 years ago versus whereyou are today.
Chances are, there are a lot ofthings you can do today and
things you have accomplishedthat would have been impossible
for you to just imagine were inthe realm of possibility for
you.
If you apply in a moresystematic manner.
this circular model of growth,then you will just have more of
(15:42):
these things in your life, moreof these things in your career.
This is really what it'sdesigned for.
It's really made for leveragingyour curiosity on an everyday
basis.
So you can look back in a fewyears and feel like, wow, there
was no way I could have imaginedthat I would be here today.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024 (16:02):
Well, that is so powerful.
And I'm a big fan of likelooking back at the breadcrumbs
because success leaves clues andI think that it can be so hard
to see how much you've grown andhow far you've come when you're
only sitting in that moment,right?
But when you take that time, asyou said, to reflect back on
where were you 10 years ago?
Where were you 5 years ago?
(16:24):
I mean, I'll tell you.
I wouldn't be in this seattalking to you today, having a
book, having a podcast, being anentrepreneur five years ago,
that would have never entered myimagination.
And that's why I think it's soimportant to kind of bring it
back to what you said at thebeginning is these ever changing
goals.
And I want to offer this toanyone who's listening, because
(16:45):
this has been a game changer forme is, you know, that quote,
like, well, I'll believe it whenI see it.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11- (16:50):
Yes.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-20 (16:50):
telling me, you don't believe it.
Right.
But I'll believe it.
Okay.
Then I'll see it.
So like if you can envision itin your brain, then you can make
it happen.
And it always makes me thinkabout, um, the, the brothers who
invented the airplane.
Like people must have thoughtthey were bananas.
You want to get into a motorizedobject in the air?
(17:13):
Like you're crazy right now.
Could you imagine not having anairplane?
And it's like, so you have toreally get it, get into that
curiosity mindset, the inventorlike mindset.
to really expand on what'spossible.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11 (17:29):
Yeah.
And, uh, in the case of theairplane, it ended up working
out, which is great, right?
But another thing that'simportant when you start having
this more experimental mindsetis to know that there is really
no such thing as failure in theworld.
anymore because the goal is notto get to a specific milestone
(17:50):
anymore.
The goal is to learn somethingnew.
And so in the case of theairplane, that worked out right.
But if they had triedeverything, they completed the
experimental cycle that didn'twork out, then they would know
And they would try somethingdifferent and, you know, we
would have maybe another way offlying that is not what it looks
like today.
But there's no way for you tomake that kind of progress if
(18:12):
you don't give it a try.
So each cycle, even if theoutcome is, Huh, that didn't
work out.
Or maybe I don't like that.
I'm not sure this career path isfor me.
Or I'm not sure I want to workon these kind of projects.
That's fine.
You learn something.
There's no such thing as failurewhen you're collecting data that
you can use for your nextexperimental cycle.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024 (18:34):
Y'all that is like huge is all of
these experimental cycles.
And this leads me to alsosomething I really want to talk
about, which y'all Dr.
Anlor has a book coming out.
It's going to be coming out inMarch.
So get your Amazons up, get thatpre order button ready to click.
Cause you're going to want thisbook to land in your hands.
the day it comes out.
(18:54):
And this is a book that's calledtiny experiments, how to live
freely in a goal obsessed world.
And y'all, you know, I'm goalobsessed, so I cannot wait to
get my hands on this book.
But.
Dr.
Ann Lohr, please tell me what isthis book about?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11- (19:12):
It's about a lot of the things that
we've talked about togethertoday.
It's really about having a moreexperimental mindset.
I wrote this for myself firstand for everybody who's like me,
like you, and like I'm sure manypeople who are listening to this
today.
People who are highly ambitiousand highly curious and who feel
(19:35):
like there might be somethingmore.
out there, but you don'tnecessarily have the right tools
in order to explore thosedifferent possibilities because
so far they have been relying onthe more linear model of
success.
So I'm providing alternativetools that are based on science,
but there are not Complicated oranything like that.
(19:56):
There's no jargon.
It's very simple tools that youcan apply on an everyday basis
at work and in your life toexperiment with where you want
to go, what you want to do andwho you want to become.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_ (20:09):
Mmm.
And y'all, here's why you needto pre order this book.
Because when you pre order it,you guys, she has a tiny
experiments workshop.
She's got a productivity, amindful productivity guide
written by herself, which y'all,remember, she's a
neuroscientist, so it's gonna begood.
She's got a book.
A behind the book exclusivevideo walkthrough also nine life
(20:32):
changing tiny experiments.
So I am going to challenge allof you today to go ahead and
preorder the book and we can allwalk through these life changing
tiny experiments together.
And when you wrote this book,who did you write it for?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11-1 (20:49):
For my younger self, really for the
person who thought that she hadto stay at Google in order to be
successful and, uh, for anyonereally who's like her today and
who wants to explore otherpossibilities.
And again, I just want to saythat if after conducting some
(21:12):
tiny experiments, the answer isthat you do want to stay in that
big corporate job, that's greattoo.
This is all about being moreexperimental, being more
intentional.
So then you know that where youwant to go is actually where you
want to go.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_0 (21:27):
Oh, I love that.
Because I mean, this is a very,like for me, this is like
therapy for me y'all, because asyou know, I recently left
corporate and I'm all on my ownand I've got my book and all of
these things, and there's a lotof unknown, right?
There is.
I am all up in that life ofuncertainty right now.
But the cool thing aboutuncertainty y'all is when you
(21:48):
are in uncertainty, you are alsoat the doorstep of infinite
possibility.
And so you can go anywhere.
Do anything, you know, thefuture is yours.
And Dr.
Anlor's book really kind of tiesa lot of that in, because guess
what y'all, if all of thisfails, if my book flops, if I
(22:09):
decide, Oh my God, I can neverbe an entrepreneur again.
Guess what?
Maybe I go back to corporate.
Who knows?
Who cares?
Guess what, y'all?
That ain't going to happen.
I'm going to be the next MelRobbins, but I'm just saying,
okay.
And what I love about her bookis she really leans into getting
comfortable with ambiguity, eventhough your brain is screaming
(22:30):
for certainty.
And that is definitely an area Istruggle with.
So Dr.
Anlor, what would you say, whatwould you say would be the
number one thing that someoneshould do when they really
struggle?
with uncertainty.
How can they get comfortablestepping into that?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_1 (22:49):
number one thing you can do when you're
feeling anxious because thingsare a little bit uncertain is to
stop trying to find a solutionfor a second, which I know can
be hard for problem solvers andpeople who like getting things
done.
Just, Pose and put yourself in aplace of observation.
I like to call this selfanthropology because the idea is
(23:13):
to become an anthropologist ofyour own life.
And just like an anthropologistgoes to a different place and
studies a different culture andasks, why are they doing things
the way they're doing them?
Or why are they worried aboutthis?
Why do they talk about thisthing so much?
You can do the same thing withyour own life.
with your worries, with thethings that you keep on thinking
(23:35):
about, without any selfjudgment, just a neutral
observer looking at what's goingon and asking, Hey, why is it
we're so worried about this?
And when you do that, you justgive yourself and your brain a
little bit of breathing space.
So you can figure out what youwant to do next, not based on
(23:56):
the anxiety, But based on yourcuriosity,
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024 (24:01):
Okay, y'all, we are replacing judgment
with curiosity.
That is this week's assignment.
It's a big one.
So you can have all week to doit.
Oh my gosh.
Okay.
This is the one question I loveto ask every single person that
is on my show.
It's what I end with.
And I am so curious for youranswer, but if you could go back
in time to being a Googler,right?
(24:22):
Having all of the.
Outward success, doing all ofthe things, checking all the
boxes, but feeling just sodefeated inside.
So bored out, burned out all thethings as you said, what piece
of advice would you give that inlaw today?
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11 (24:41):
reach out for help, because I thought,
and especially being a woman inthe corporate world at the time
in tech, where there were notthat many of us on my team, I
just felt like I had to looklike I got it all figured out.
And so instead of raising myhand and saying, Hey, I think
I'm struggling a little bithere.
(25:02):
I would just try to fixeverything on my own.
And I actually had amazingcolleagues who I know would have
been able to help me at thetime, but I felt like it would
have been a sign of weakness ifI did that.
So this is not a big piece ofadvice or saying that that's the
decision I should have made atthe time, but more on an
(25:22):
everyday basis.
asking for help because I thinka lot of people around us do
want to help us if we let themknow that we need the help.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_ (25:31):
They do.
That is also a sticky floor ofmine.
Y'all is asking for help.
And so I have to constantly leaninto what I like to call my zone
of discomfort which is askingfor help because the magic about
your discomfort zone is it getssmaller the more you lean into
(25:51):
it and your comfort zoneexpands.
Oh my gosh, Dr.
Ann Lohr, this is amazing.
I cannot wait to get my hands onyour book.
So if people want to work withyou, if they want to grab the
book, number one, I'm going toput all the links in the show
notes, but tell me how can theyget in touch with you.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_11-12 (26:08):
So my website is nestlabs.
com.
I have a newsletter that I sendevery week about a lot of the
topics that we talked abouttoday.
And to pre order the book, youneed to go to tinyexperiments.
org.
erica-rooney_1_11-12-2024_ (26:20):
Yay.
All right.
Thank you so much.
It was amazing.
I cannot wait to get my hands onthis book.
If you are listening, you'regoing to have to hit me up.
Tell me what you think about it.
Tell me what tiny experimentyou're choosing today, but Dr.
Anlor, thank you so much.
anne-laure--she-her-_1_1 (26:35):
Thanks so much, Erika.
Oh my gosh, what an incredibleconversation that was with Dr.
Ann LOR.
Today.
Now if there's one thing that Ihope that you take away from
this episode, it's this.
That your path to success doesnot have to follow someone
(26:55):
else's script.
You all life is about curiosity.
It's about growth and it isabout those tiny experiences.
It is about those tinyexperiments.
That opened the door to infinitepossibilities.
And here's your challenge forthe week?
What is one tiny experiment thatyou can try today?
(27:19):
Maybe it's asking a newquestion.
Maybe it's exploring a differentpath or simply pausing to
reflect, but whatever it is, Iwant you to do it.
You might just surpriseyourself.
But if you loved this episode,please remember to rate, review
and subscribe as it really doeshelp it land in the hands of the
person.
That needs to hear it most.
(27:39):
And don't forget to go out thereand grab Dr.
Ann Laura's book today.
It's called tiny experiments.
Pre-order that sucker so thatyou have it in your hand, on the
day that it goes live, but allof the links are in the show
notes.
And as always y'all remember theonly ceilings that exist are the
ones we place over ourselves.
Let's smash them together.
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