March 19, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode of Glass Ceilings and Sticky Floors, we’re joined by Jenny Wood, a former Google executive turned keynote speaker, author, and career development expert. Her bold moves, like chasing her now-husband off a subway and launching one of Google’s largest career programs, are just the beginning of what makes her story remarkable.
Topics Covered:
- The Subway Meet-Cute: How Jenny’s bold decision to chase down a stranger changed her life.
- Building a Career at Google: From entry-level to executive leadership and founding Own Your Career.
- The Power of Micro-Moments: How small, courageous actions like following up with a VP can lead to big results.
- Wild Courage Defined: Practical tips for navigating fear, taking risks, and owning your choices.
- The Pencil Sharpener Technique: Why sharing a rough project draft within 24 hours can transform your workplace reputation.
- Not Actually Promotable (NAP) Work: How to say no to tasks that don’t move your career forward.
- The ROCK-CHALK-TALK-WALK Framework: A powerful goal-setting tool to help you identify and achieve your dreams.
Key Takeaways:
- Courage doesn’t have to look like chasing a man off a subway—it’s often found in micro-moments.
- Bias to action is one of the most underrated workplace superpowers.
- Stop doing “NAP” work and start saying yes to tasks that make a measurable impact on your career.
- Naming your goals, saying them out loud, and taking consistent steps (no matter how small) is the key to success.
Links and Resources:
- Connect with Jenny: itsjennywood.com
- Preorder her book: Wild Courage: Go After What You Want and Get It
- Speaking and workshops: itsjennywood.com/speaking
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
What if the secret to unlockingyour wildest dreams was a mix of
(00:04):
bold moves, big, small moments,and the courage to step out of
your comfort zone.
Even if that means chasing atotal stranger.
Off of the New York subway.
Well, today's guest Jenny woodis here to prove that it is from
rising through the ranks atGoogle to become a career mentor
for thousands through her ownyour career program.
(00:25):
Jenny's journey is anything butconventional.
She's also a pretty rad personwith some crazy hobbies that
you're going to hear about injust a bit, but she's also the
author of wild courage go afterwhat you want and get it.
And y'all.
If you have been waiting for asign to go after what you want,
this is it.
(00:46):
Welcome to the glass ceiling andsticky floor podcast.
The show that's here to empoweryou to break free from limiting
beliefs, ditch toxic behaviors,and unlock the infinite
possibilities waiting for you.
This is your time to live yourbest life unapologetically I'm
Erica Rooney, your host andbiggest cheerleader on a mission
to get more women into positionsof power and keep them there.
(01:08):
Where they belong.
If you're ready to shatterceilings, crush self-doubt and
build a career in life,overflowing with growth and
abundance, you're in the rightplace.
Here's the real deal.
We talk about the real stuffhere.
Imposter syndrome,perfectionism, fear, burnout,
you name it.
It's raw.
It's honest.
And it's exactly what you needto level up.
(01:29):
So grab a seat, pop in those earbuds and let's dive in.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-202 (01:33):
In her 18 years at Google.
Today's guest grew from entrylevel to executive where she
most recently led a largeoperations team that helped
drive billions of dollars ofrevenue per year.
In 2021, she started a passionproject within Google called Own
Your Career, which grew to oneof the largest career
(01:54):
development programs in thehistory of Google.
She is an expert on acing a jobsearch, building relationships,
personal branding, and y'all, somuch more.
Her work has been featured inHarvard Business Review,
Entrepreneur Inc., and Forbes,and y'all, I gotta add in these
next tidbits because damn, youare about to be impressed.
She's a licensed private pilotand a tapped, and y'all, she has
(02:18):
the most incredible, meet cutestory that was actually featured
in New York times.
So talk about wild y'all, butshe's a wife, a mom and the
author of the book, wildcourage, go after what you want
and get it.
So without further ado, Jennywould, I'm so excited.
You're here.
Welcome to the glass ceiling andsticky floor podcast.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_ (02:40):
Hello, hello! It is such a joy to be
here today.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-202 (02:44):
Oh my gosh, I'm so pumped and the
title of your book, we're goingto dive in, it's Wild Courage.
Go after what you want and getit.
And girl, you did, on a subway,chasing after someone that you
had no idea who he was, was hemarried or not.
Spoiler alert y'all, he wasn't,thankfully, but now he is.
Can you please tell me thisstory of chasing your husband
(03:05):
out of the subway?
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_11102 (03:07):
I most certainly can.
Okay, so the story is, isbananas when you now know how it
turned out, which you justshared.
This stranger, this attractivestranger on the subway, uh, was
standing about 20 feet away fromme.
I was writing at home from workone day in New York City.
And, uh, I was just like reallytaken by this guy thinking,
what's he all about?
Where's he going?
(03:28):
Where's he coming from?
What does he do?
And I said, I made a deal withmyself.
I said, if he gets off at mystop, then I will try to strike
up a conversation with him.
But if not, then.
So, he gets off at the nextstop, which is not my stop, and
I said, Okay, that's theuniverse telling me it wasn't
meant to be.
The people got off the train,new people got on the train, and
(03:50):
just as the doors were about toclose, I said, No! Screw the
universe! And I ran off thattrain.
So I chased after him to catchup with him, and, uh, as he was,
uh, Exiting the, the stationstairs, I tapped him on the
shoulder.
I said, excuse me, I'm sorry tobother you.
And he said, that's okay.
You seem nice.
(04:10):
And I said, well, you're, thispart is so crazy because this
was, I had no plan as to whatwas going to come out of my
mouth.
I just knew I didn't want to letthis moment pass me by.
So what came out of my mouth wasyou were on my subway and I
thought you were cute.
I can't see if you're wearing awedding ring because you're
(04:31):
wearing gloves.
It was like a blizzard inJanuary in New York city.
I said, I can't see if you'rewearing a wedding ring because
you're wearing gloves, but inthe event that you're not
married, I'd love to give you mybusiness card.
And, and I didn't mean to bethat, I mean, I guess I was
being, uh, uh, assertive if, if,if you will.
By taking all these steps, but Ididn't mean for that to be my
(04:53):
opening line.
And of course, he's got a greatsense of humor.
So he kind of chuckled and, uh,I gave him my business card.
We went out a week later, had,and I just knew in that moment,
sitting there across from him atthis dive bar on Columbus and
75th called dive 75.
I just knew, I was like, this isit.
This is the one.
Um, and yeah, we've been veryhappily married 11 years with
(05:14):
two kids.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-202 (05:15):
Oh my goodness.
Well, okay.
I gotta know.
Have you ever done somethinglike that before?
Not just like with men, but justin general.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (05:24):
Yeah, so I, it's, I definitely err on
the side of more bold.
One example is when I was inmiddle school, I was with a
bunch of friends in this yogurtshop and they dared me, or I
dared myself, somehow a dare wasput out there to stand on a
table and sing my country tis ofthee.
(05:44):
And, and I was like, okay, sure.
Why not?
What do I have to lose?
And it's not like I didn't haveany moments of embarrassment in
life or feeling insecure.
I mean, I have those moments allthe time, but it's almost like I
would test myself to see if Icould build a thicker skin just
by doing one little dare at atime.
So just like I dared myself orsomebody dared me and I accepted
(06:06):
the dare in middle school to dothat.
And I did, I sang up, I stood upthere and sang all the stanzas,
um, until the very end.
Do thee we sing, or whatever thelast line is, right?
Of thee I sing.
Somebody, some, some, somebodysing something.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09 (06:23):
That's it.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_ (06:25):
right?
You know, similar to how in thisFlash moment on the subway.
I was like, just do it.
Just go for it.
So it's not like I wouldregularly walk up to people on
the street and give them mynumber.
There was something that daythat like some inertia that
pushed me off of, of pushed meout of my subway seat and told
me, no, Jenny, go chase afterwhat you want in life, because
(06:46):
if we sit back and let life addidly, Pass us by, then, you
know, we'll probably not end upwhere we would want to, if we
were choosing our own destinyone moment at a time.
And that applies to life.
That applies to work.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-202 (07:00):
Oh my goodness.
100%.
And I, I love opening with thisstory because it's the red
thread of your life and it'slike this red thread of the
book.
And it's so amazing, but.
You know, you were an executiveat Google.
We talked a little bit aboutthat.
Tell me what you're doing nowand how this book came to be.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (07:16):
Yeah, sure.
So now I, so I was at Google foralmost 18 years and I, I left,
um, this past summer, so summer2024, because I was so excited
about writing a book that helpedpeople get more of what they
want in their career.
To answer your question, I'mdoing this full time.
(07:37):
I am a full time writer andkeynote speaker and corporate
facilitator, workshop leader,um, consultant, and I'm having
an absolute ball, an absoluteball.
It was really, really scary.
I'm the breadwinner for myfamily.
It was really scary to leaveGoogle, which is a substantial
(07:58):
paycheck.
As an exact and, you know, a lotof financial comfort and
benefits and, you know, I've gottwo kids like it's, it's, it was
a lot, uh, took a lot for me towalk away a lot of soul
searching and thinking andfrankly, reevaluating the value
I place on money versus beinghigh net freedom or.
(08:19):
Um, just being able to put allof my time and energy into what
I am currently loving.
So really really hard decision,but I'm having an absolute ball
And I am just working on thisbook promoting this book full
time, which is just an absoluteblast.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-202 (08:36):
Oh my gosh.
Well, I've got the book.
I've got an early release copyy'all.
Don't be jealous.
But in your book, you talk abouthow courage is essential to
success because we are oftentimid on the inside and
absolutely agree with all ofthat.
But how can someone push throughthat fear?
(09:00):
To take action so they can chasea man off the subway or leave a
nice six figure job at googleLike how do we take that action?
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (09:09):
Yeah.
So I think it's meeting yourselfwhere you are, right?
Not everybody.
And we actually have to bereally mindful of this in the
book.
And I was asking for feedbackearly on, like, is this book
realistic for people?
Cause most people are not goingto stand on the table at the
yogurt shop.
And most people are not going tochase an attractive stranger off
the subway, but there's a lot ofbig, small things people can do
(09:31):
each day.
And it's actually the name of mynewsletter, perhaps you want a
mentor or a sponsor and you'rejust too nervous to ask or you,
and so the big small thing issending them that note, right?
Or, pinging them after or noteven asking them to be your
mentor, but after your VP atyour company leads the town hall
in front of 200 people.
Just pinging them and beinglike, that was so helpful that
(09:53):
that they gave me a lot ofinformation about this upcoming
reorg that I didn't have, forexample, even that is the
beginning of building arelationship that's not chasing
someone off the subway.
That's not like followingsomeone into the hall after they
deliver this in a presentationto the company and being like,
Hey, will you mentor me?
I'm Jenny, right?
And yes, I have done things likethat.
But again, meeting, meetingyourself where you are, if
(10:15):
you're.
Perhaps we're introverted oryou're more shy or you grew up
in a culture that is much morereserved or just different than
the American or Westerncorporate culture.
Right?
Where or even a Google culturewhere like a lot of Latitude is
given to people at very bottomrungs who have great ideas,
(10:36):
right?
So I have a product, I have apersonality and I'm a product of
the culture that allows forthese more bold moves, but there
are all these little teeny,tiny, big, small things you can
do each day, like asking for aone on one with your boss's
boss, or asking your boss, ifyou can present for 20 minutes
in their leadership meeting toexpose this cool project you're
working on, or the, you know,ideas I just shared.
(10:58):
Pinging, uh, uh, a leader atyour company after their
presentation and saying, Hey,that was awesome.
I learned a lot and leaving itat that.
So what are these micro momentsthat you can integrate into your
day that still help you,frankly, have more courage.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2024 (11:11):
I love that idea of the micro
moments and big small thingsbecause I think when we're
thinking about The big ask orthe next big bold step.
It's always like this hugemonumental thing and people
forget the power of just thosetiny moments, like pinging the
VP, which then you've gotrecognition there.
(11:32):
They're talking to you.
They're noticing you, even ifit's just in a small gesture of
gratitude.
Like you
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1110 (11:37):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Can I share another one?
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09- (11:39):
yeah, please
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_ (11:40):
Here's another example.
Occasionally, you'll be in a oneon one meeting with your manager
and they'll just like drop ahumdinger on you, right?
Like a total doozy of a projectand you're overwhelmed and
insecure and you feel impostersyndrome that they're even
giving you this project and youhave literally no clue where to
start.
So mild courage is going back tothem and asking for them to
(12:03):
clarify like, Hey, what are thegoals here?
And you know, what should I befocused on?
And when do you want it by wildcourage is doing something that
I call a pencil sharpener.
A pencil sharpener is within thefirst 24 hours of getting that
Totally overwhelming project.
You just open up a blankdocument on your computer.
You can jot it down on pen andpaper too, I suppose.
(12:23):
And you write down a couplecategories.
Let's say the categories aregoal of the project, self
imposed deadline, first threestakeholders I want to meet with
on this project, questions thatI need you to answer, boss, You
know, fill in one, one othercategory, you then rough it out
rough sketch.
That's why I call it a pencilsharpener.
Like you're just kind of likewarming up the ideas, but you're
(12:46):
creating an artifact.
You're creating something thatexists on paper that did not
exist before, especially inknowledge work where so much is
like ephemeral ideas ortheoretical discussion, right?
Bosses love things that move theball forward and a pencil
sharpener, which is just acouple of bullets in these three
to five categories on a sharedoc shows that you're moving the
(13:09):
ball forward.
And that's really all you needto get started on a big, scary,
hairy project.
And then share it with them.
And this part is so, so, socritical, Erica, share it with
them within 24 hours.
The reason that is important isbecause then you're not stewing
on the Oh my gosh, it's beenseven days.
We have our next one on onecoming up.
I don't have anythinginteresting to share with them.
(13:31):
I should have had a lot ofprogress on this in seven days.
Like no, if it's within 24hours, the expectations are so
low of what you'd be able to puttogether, right?
Even do it like day of, right?
Like the hour after you leavethat meeting, just get something
down and you'll realize twothings.
One, as you get some ideas down,You come up with other ideas and
it starts to solidify in yourmind what they might be looking
for.
And two, you're giving themsomething to react to your, your
(13:52):
boss, something to react to,which is always going to a show
that you are the kind of personwho has a bias to action and B
allows them to start the dancewith you of like, Oh, we can
tweak this.
We can adjust this.
Nah, it's not really that goal.
That's more of this.
You put these two stakeholders.
Those are the right ones.
This third one I disagree with.
Let me write in on this documentwho the person should be.
And then boom, you're off to theraces.
(14:13):
So again, so, and that is wildcourage, right?
Mild courage is asking for morehelp because it still takes
courage to ask for more help ormore direction from your boss.
But wild courage is.
Taking those next stepsyourself, and even if they're
wrong, even if they're rough,and that is the pencil
sharpener.
And that, again, is a big, smallthing, right?
(14:33):
Not too hard to do that.
But people think it needs to be,like, perfect before they go
back to the boss and, and haveanother conversation about it.
Whatever that scary project is.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2 (14:42):
That is so powerful because I'm
thinking back to when I was incorporate America and how
impressed I would have been if Ithrow out this big project for
someone to do and they came backto me by end of day or the next
morning.
With, like you said, the mostsimplest of documents with just
like some goals and next stepsand ideas.
(15:02):
It shows you're proactive.
It shows you're taking aninterest.
Like, you're gonna be my go toperson.
So there is so much power inthat one example you just gave.
So much.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_11102 (15:12):
I am such a nerd because when you
said that, I had chills.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-20 (15:19):
I'm literally like a chief people
officer.
I'm like, like, and that's whyso many people, they're so
scared of doing these tinylittle things.
They don't realize what a bigimpact it would have.
I think what's so crazy is likeyou said, we think it has to be
perfect.
We think it has to be this bigwhole thing, but it's that
timing piece, right?
Like nobody expects greatness in12 hours,
jenny-wood_1_12-09- (15:40):
everybody's impressed by bias to action and
everybody's impressed by justalso the confidence it shows to
take a stab at some ideas, evenif they're wrong.
Like another thing I say is givethree options, have a POV.
Your boss is not some wizardbehind a curtain with all the
magical answers.
If they're giving you thisproject, they don't necessarily
know the best way to go about itand you can get there together.
(16:01):
But let's say that the projectwas, I don't know, figure out if
we're going to do vegan vanillaice cream, strawberry ice cream,
or chocolate ice cream next yearas our like big product launch.
They don't necessarily have a.
An opinion like you, and youdon't have to have the right
opinion.
You might say, actually, the,what I know about these three
flavors working in the ice creamindustry for a long time, I
think we should go with vanillaand it, that in and of itself,
(16:22):
like giving three options showsthat you're able to look at
things from differentperspectives and having a,
having a POV saying, and Irecommend we go with X shows
that you have the confidence,the future leadership potential,
the.
the, uh, I'll just
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-20 (16:38):
the gumption,
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1110 (16:38):
of anything else.
Yeah, the gumption! Thank you!Right, exactly.
Yeah, um, to actually have aperspective.
And that's what, that's the kindof person who gets a raise, who
gets a promotion, who gets theleadership.
And the other thing that I'mpicking up on is that, you know,
when you were chief peopleofficer, so you probably saw
these opportunities all the timeand you probably saw how often
(17:00):
people don't write that halfpage, one page, no more than
that doc by the end of the dayor the next day.
And that's why I got chillsbecause it really does stand
out.
And that's why.
It's this like tiny little movethat's not chasing somebody off
the subway.
It's just putting down a coupleof bullets that may or may not
be correct and sharing themwithin 24 hours.
(17:21):
But something concrete, some inkon paper, but nobody, nobody
does it.
Right?
Nobody
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2 (17:27):
they don't.
They don't.
And I love that we are on ascale of zero to chasing someone
off a subway.
That's our standard here, guys.
Oh my gosh.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-202 (17:37):
Totally.
Totally.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-202 (17:39):
in the book, you have nine labels
that you turn in to powerfultraits that help you fuel your
courage.
Now, I'm not going to have youname all nine traits here,
right?
When it's not pop quiz,
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (17:50):
Yeah, I can.
Would you like
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-20 (17:52):
bet you could, but what are some of
your, your favorite ones to talkabout?
And like, let's dive into, Idon't know, just pick one.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (18:00):
Okay, I'm going to pick the spiciest
one.
Okay, I am going to share themall.
So it's weird, selfish,shameless, nosy, obsessed,
manipulative, brutal, reckless,and bossy.
And they're all These powerfulwords, especially for women, but
truly for everyone that createthe bars of an invisible cage
that keeps you playing small.
(18:21):
And I want all of you listeningto stop playing small and start
playing smart.
And these are the traits thatare going to help you play smart
when used in a savvy, insaneway.
Of course, we don't want to harmanybody, right?
We don't want to, um, be cruelor abusive.
These are obviously.
Plays on words here, areclaiming of language.
So manipulative is, is, isbecoming my favorite one to talk
(18:43):
to.
Cause it's the one I was mostscared to write about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2024 (18:48):
I love to say too, and just a
little plug here, I've beencalled every single one of those
things in the book, y'all, butyes, let's talk about being
manipulative.
Let's do it.
How, how did you, Like take thatand turn that into this
powerful, positive thing.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1110 (19:04):
So manipulative to me is just build
influence through empathy andcraft lasting relationships.
Because at the end of the day,we are.
Always trying to influencesomebody or something, whether
it is.
Me trying to influence apublisher to give me a big book
deal, or me trying to influencemy son Ari to get the hell out
(19:28):
of the house in the morning.
And I give him just enoughchoice.
Do you want to wear the redshirt or the blue shirt to make
him feel like he has agencywhile not derailing my agenda to
be at school in seven minutes.
So I think the first part isjust acknowledging that it is
okay to want to influence asituation.
We're doing it right now.
We're not speaking just to likemassage each other's eardrums.
(19:49):
We are speaking with theintention to influence your
audience to help them getbetter.
And sometimes it's for analtruistic purpose.
You purely want to help somebodyelse sometimes.
And like, it is okay if ourpurpose is for you to sell More
of your book or to get people toshare the episode and get other
people excited about these ideasand gain more monthly listeners,
(20:10):
and it's okay if I also have agoal of helping millions of
people through my book andhaving your listeners, all of
you listening right now, go outand buy my book, which I
encourage you to do.
I think it's first justacknowledging that it is okay to
want to influence.
And then we can start to unpackall the different ways you can.
Wield that influence at work.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2 (20:32):
Hmm.
I love that.
And you also talk about traittraps.
So tell me what is a trait trap?
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_111 (20:38):
Ah, okay.
Great question.
So trait traps are when you takethe trait too far.
So for example, obsessed isabout push, perform, It's not
about grinding yourself into apulp and overworking yourself
till you're numb, right?
Um, it's about a good strongwork ethic.
It's not about taking it too farthat you make yourself sick In
(20:59):
uh in a manipulative since wewere just talking about that.
It's about influencing in theright way And you know one trait
trap in there for example is isBuild relationships, but know
when you've maybe gone a littlebit too far.
So here's an example where thatwould fall into healthy
manipulation.
Um, and this is when I reallywanted this.
(21:21):
I'll say who it is.
Vanessa Van Edwards is this allstar author.
Um, super well known and I justwas so admired her and I was
going to Austin for an, for awork related event and I emailed
her and I said, Hey, Vanessa,I'm going to be in Austin.
I'd love to take you out tocoffee since you know, I'm
working on my first book, etc.
And she said, Okay.
(21:42):
Great.
Um, the only thing is I've gotsome travel dates that like are
just over the time you're goingto be there.
Here's when I leave.
Here's when I come back.
And I saw that she was going tobe leaving just, she was going
to be leaving Austin just beforeI arrived.
So I said, Hey, what time, um, Iguess she'd already shared her
flight information.
And I said, Oh, that is perfect.
I get in just a couple hoursbefore you.
(22:03):
We're probably going to be atthe airport at the same time.
Why don't we just get coffee atthe airport when you're about to
leave?
And I've just landed.
She's like, that's perfect.
Sounds great.
So we had this awesome coffee,you know, became friends, et
cetera.
But Erica, here's the thing.
I actually was not supposed toland a couple hours before her.
I was supposed to land a couplehours after her.
So I quickly checked the Deltawebsite for 60 bucks.
(22:24):
I got myself on a new flightthat landed earlier and.
Got me there to make my storytrue.
So, you know, some might sayliar, liar, pants on fire, but
in this case, a little whitelie, a little bit of healthy
manipulation to influence thesituation without making it
awkward or over the top ortelling her how the sausage was
made and saying like, well, Iland later, but I could use my
(22:44):
flight.
In which case you'd be like, Oh,don't do that.
That's absurd.
And I'd look a little bit, Ithink, extra right.
And, and so I think just beingsmart about how you influence or
how you Manipulate thesesituations is also important.
And so the trick trap here wouldbe just being way over the top
or exposing every single thingthat's going on in your head,
um, to the person who is therecipient of your thoughtful
(23:07):
manipulation.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2 (23:09):
love some thoughtful manipulation,
and I have done that, I couldnot even tell you how many
times.
I love the word manipulationwith that, I like to think of it
more like orchestrating myfuture, something like that, you
know?
Yeah!
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024 (23:24):
Someone else had another great name for
this that is escaping me rightnow, but if we were to call it
strategic or, um, you know,planning ahead, People wouldn't
pay nearly as much attentionabout it.
And I like to do thingsdifferently and I like to be a
little bit out there.
And so I'm calling itmanipulation and we'll see if I
get canceled.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-0 (23:46):
culture is real.
Oh my gosh.
Okay, Jenny, on this podcast wetalk a lot about the sticky
floors, which are the limitingbeliefs and toxic behaviors that
keep you stuck.
And I saw so many connections.
In the work that you do, right?
We're just kind of manipulatingour language to talk about a
little bit of the same things.
(24:06):
When you hear that, you know,sticky floors and these trait
traps and things like that, whatwas one of those that you
struggled with the most?
And then how did you get overthat?
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (24:17):
Easy, easy.
So this is again, something thatcan happen to anybody, but I
think women can be particularly,um, prone to falling into this.
And this is what I call nap workand nap work is NAP stands for
not actually promotable work.
(24:37):
And I got to credit my mom.
We were sitting together at thekitchen table and she came up
with this acronym, which Itotally love.
So not actually promotable work.
So what is that?
This is um, taking notes in themeeting always.
This is planning the offsite.
Oh, our leaders in town.
Can you plan the dinner and likethe snacks and can you organize
the share drive or come in earlyto decorate for the holiday
(24:58):
party?
That is not actually promotablework.
Yes, it is.
Important work for teams tofunction.
And it's great to build culture,you know, through these
activities.
But if you're always doing it,then you are really doing a
disservice to yourself when thestuff that you should be doing
more of is.
The stuff that's pr, that'spromotable.
(25:19):
So these are, this is like the2025 marketing plan that is the
key priority for the head ofyour company or the thing that's
most important to your boss onthe strategy for that ice cream
project that we talked aboutbefore, or anything else that
really matters for your careeror matters for the company that
you can hang your hat on andwrite a really solid bullet
(25:39):
point in your annual review.
With numbers and metrics thatyou helped move.
And it's hard to say no to thesethings, right?
Like it's hard to, for someoneto say to you, Hey, can you hop
on a call?
And can we talk about thelogistics for X, Y, Z thing?
And so owning that no andsaying, sorry, heads down now on
my H2 marketing project issomething that takes practice,
(26:01):
but really worthwhile because ifyou're.
Always getting stuck in the napwork.
You're really not puttingyourself in a position to
continue to move up in yourcareer.
And it's not like you shouldnever do it.
I think maybe 15 percent napwork is probably fine, but if
you find yourself getting tappedover and over and over again, it
takes some wild courage to pushback and say, I had a great time
(26:25):
planning the company offsitelast year, and I'm so excited to
give somebody else anopportunity to do it.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2 (26:30):
Yes.
And I can attest to that assomeone in HR, which is often
the dumping ground for a lot ofnap work.
You really do have to be smartin how much of that you take on.
And I do think as women, we areso often other focused and we
don't want to put others outthat we just take it on
ourselves, but you're right.
Like start to list that out.
(26:50):
If you can't put her a number ora metric behind how that moved
the business forward, you've gotto limit that.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (26:55):
Yeah.
And in general, I would broadenthis up to saying yes to the big
and no to the small right?
The big stuff is that h2 projecton strategy or the ice cream,
you know, metric you want tomove and the small is the taking
notes, the planning the offsiteand even within HR, right?
Because I, I, I was never the.
The program I led at Google wascompletely fine as a passion
project.
I was actually never in anypeople operations role.
(27:16):
But I have enough experienceworking with those folks to know
that even within there, there ispromotable work and non
promotable work.
So for example, you know, ifyou're doing something in the HR
capacity, at least.
Find a metric you can tie it to.
If your company has an annualsatisfaction survey and career
development is always in the 40percent range or whatever it is,
like at least I'm doing thisthing with the goal to move this
from 40 percent satisfaction to47 percent satisfaction, as
(27:40):
opposed to always taking notesfor the meeting, which there's
no metric tied to that.
It's just helping out andsomebody else can help out next
time if you've done it too much.
squadcaster-91ci_1_ (27:48):
absolutely.
And I will say here too, I thinkit's helpful to track that stuff
because when you sit there andyou tell your old pale, stale
white male boss, like, Hey, I'mthe one always taking the notes.
They're going to be like, no,you're not.
I asked little Bobby to do it.
And you're like, but if you havethe metrics, you can put that in
a performance review.
I took, you know, all of thenotes on the strategic HR
(28:11):
meetings for 87 percent of themeetings in 2024.
Now it's not it's it's still napwork, right?
But when you can document it andput it in that review You're
also going to bring that tolight where you're spending your
time So I still think you canfind those metrics and make them
Sound impressive for somethingthat's not that impressive, like
(28:31):
note taking.
And then maybe you'll get yourboss to think a little
differently in 2025.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_11102 (28:36):
I love it.
I love it.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-20 (28:38):
All right, Jenny, can you tell me
about the ROC, CHOC, TOC, andWOC formula?
What is, what is it, and like,how can we use it?
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (28:48):
Yeah, for sure.
So this is goal setting in anutshell, essentially, and rock
is your big thing you want toaccomplish and have wild courage
when you set your rock, right?
Not like, oh, I want to makesome music and put it on
Spotify, right?
Like, no, I want to have, youknow, Um, this let's, let's just
like aim for the stars.
I want to have a Grammy awardwinning album by 2029.
(29:12):
Right?
Okay.
So that's your big rock and Icall it a rock because if you
think about filling the jar ofyour life, the rocks are the
things that take up the mostspace or should take up the most
space the pebbles.
Are going to then fill up thenext amount of space.
And then the sand is like littlebitty things, but your rocks are
the big ones, those big thingsthat you kind of want to like
continue to push.
And then chalk is write it down.
So I oftentimes on my monitorright in front of me here have a
(29:35):
goal and that goal will be, youknow, Grammy award winning album
by 2029 or whatever it is.
So I can keep reminding myselfof what that big rock is and be
specific there, right?
That's when you can say, youknow, I want to.
Um, to get there, you know, Igot to, I got to put some
pebbles in there as well andsome sand in there as well.
So I want to record my firstthree practice tracks by end of
(29:58):
June.
And I want to reach out to sevenproducers by the end of August.
Right.
So that's where you can get alittle bit more granular in
these micro goals.
Cause we're also talking aboutlike, what are these baby steps
you can take if you're not goingto chase someone off the subway.
Um, and then, so that's rock is,what is your goal?
chalk, chalk is writing down.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2 (30:15):
What are we talking
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (30:16):
We're talking about, you're just
saying it out loud.
So sometimes like I am not amanifested into the world kind
of person, but I am a, webelieve what we say kind of
person.
And the more we say these wordsout loud, the more we feel
comfortable having that goalversus feel foolish having that
goal.
For example, in 2006, when Iwanted to work for Google, I was
(30:37):
living with my parents at thetime and I walked around the
house, like this like nuttymantra.
I'm going to work for Google.
I'm going to work for Google.
I'm going to work for Google.
And Google is like the hottestthing then with the lava lamps
and the beanbag chairs and allthese like sizzling news
segments, you know, promotingthis as the best company to work
for ever.
And I was like, I'm going towork at Google.
So I was talking this goal outloud so that I wouldn't shy away
(30:59):
from it and just have it kind ofstew around in my brain and my
heart and my stomach, but never,we're going to work for Google.
Really believe that it couldhappen by saying it out loud.
You have people who can keep youaccountable.
And frankly, more importantly,you keep yourself accountable.
And then finally walk is you gotto walk the walk.
You got to, you got to reach outto those seven producers.
You got to record those threetracks.
You've got to send that resumeto Google.
(31:20):
You got to jump off the subwaytrain.
And that is rock, chalk, talk,walk goal setting in a nutshell.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2024 (31:27):
I love that.
My favorite step in all of thatis the talk portion because
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_11 (31:31):
Tell me why.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09- (31:33):
found that that is what makes me do
the thing.
And I'll give you an examplebecause I can dream it all day.
I can write it in my plannersand I can journal about it, but
if I am really struggling withmy sticky floors of worrying
about what other people think orperfectionism or this, that, and
the other.
If I don't tell somebody else inmy circle that I know will hold
(31:56):
me accountable, that dream willeventually wither and die.
Like I just know myself.
And so for me talking about it,and when I wanted to start this
podcast, I didn't do it for avery long time and I know
myself.
So I did the thing to set it inmotion, right?
I did the thing I couldn't takeback.
And I sent an email to just 10women who I knew would support
(32:18):
me.
And boom! It was out there, ithad to be done.
Mmm.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_11102 (32:24):
I love it.
That is so, so, so great.
And then as you say it out loud,you start to believe it, right?
Or you get other ideas, like itbecomes an iterative process.
Talking it is almost like yourown little pencil sharpener,
right?
Where You put the idea out thereand other people might say, Oh,
well, what about this woman?
Or you'd be awesome, Erica, oryou were born for this.
And then that like builds theconfidence and reduces the
(32:44):
imposter syndrome.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2024 (32:46):
I love all of that.
Jenny, if you could go back intime to The young Jenny walking
around her parents housemumbling, I'm going to work for
Google.
I'm going to work for Google,you know, and you, you think
about all the things you'velearned in your time and your
experience.
What piece of advice would yougive that Jenny today?
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (33:05):
Chill the fuck out.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-20 (33:10):
Oh, there's a round of applause for
that one because I need to geton that bandwagon.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_111 (33:16):
And like other people have told me
this too.
I remember sitting on the couchwith Kim Scott in her house, and
she's just been like an angelhelping me.
Kim Scott, who wrote RadicalCandor, she's just been an angel
on this book project, and areally wonderful mentor.
And we were talking, This point,like, okay, what else should I
be doing on the book launch?
And she's like, uh, relax.
And I was like, okay, yeah,points taken.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09- (33:38):
Well, that actually vibes very much
with who she is.
And I'll give her a shamelessplug here.
She was on this podcast about ayear ago.
So head back and listen to theKim Scott episode, y'all.
Um, oh my gosh, she's amazing.
Jenny, if people want to workwith you.
Where can they find you?
I'll tell everybody.
We're going to link the book forthe pre orders in the show
(34:01):
notes.
First of all, when does the booklaunch?
Let's, let's start with that.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (34:05):
Yeah.
March 25th.
So
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09- (34:07):
Okay.
March 25th coming for us.
I love it where I'm going tolink the pre orders, but where
can people find you?
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (34:13):
Yeah.
Uh, to bring me into yourorganization for a keynote or
any kind of speaking engagement,fireside chat or workshop, it's,
it's Jennywood.
com slash speaking,
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2024 (34:23):
I love it.
Jenny, this was so fun.
Thank you so much.
And best of luck on the booklaunch and everything else.
It's going to be amazing.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (34:31):
Thank you so much.
What a fun conversation to havetoday and hope all of you
listening got something out ofit and thank you for giving us
an opportunity to contribute toyour goals.
Jenny just gave us the blueprintfor breaking through.
From her signature pencilsharpener technique that can
change how you show up at workto reframing manipulative.
As building influence withempathy, this conversation was
(34:54):
packed with just game changinginsights.
Y'all.
Jennie story reminds us all thecourage.
Isn't about waiting for theperfect moment.
No, no, no.
It's about making the move thatscares you.
And showing up again and again,and again, her book wild courage
hits the shelves on March 25th,2025, but you can pre-order it
(35:17):
now.
And.
But you can pre-order it now.
And you should.
If you're ready to stop playingsmall and start building a life
you love, this is yourpermission slip until next time
y'all keep chasing those dreams.
Even if it means jumping off thetrain.
Thanks for tuning in to theglass ceiling and sticky floor
(35:38):
podcast.
If this episode lit a fire underyou, go ahead and hit that five
star review.
It's how this message lands inthe hands of the women that need
to hear it.
Most, and don't stop now, headto Amazon order the book, glass
ceilings, and sticky floors.
Follow me on Facebook,Instagram, LinkedIn, antique
talk for daily doses ofinspiration and all the tools
(35:58):
you need to keep smashing thoseceilings.
What if the secret to unlockingyour wildest dreams was a mix of
(00:04):
bold moves, big, small moments,and the courage to step out of
your comfort zone.
Even if that means chasing atotal stranger.
Off of the New York subway.
Well, today's guest Jenny woodis here to prove that it is from
rising through the ranks atGoogle to become a career mentor
for thousands through her ownyour career program.
(00:25):
Jenny's journey is anything butconventional.
She's also a pretty rad personwith some crazy hobbies that
you're going to hear about injust a bit, but she's also the
author of wild courage go afterwhat you want and get it.
And y'all.
If you have been waiting for asign to go after what you want,
this is it.
(00:46):
Welcome to the glass ceiling andsticky floor podcast.
The show that's here to empoweryou to break free from limiting
beliefs, ditch toxic behaviors,and unlock the infinite
possibilities waiting for you.
This is your time to live yourbest life unapologetically I'm
Erica Rooney, your host andbiggest cheerleader on a mission
to get more women into positionsof power and keep them there.
(01:08):
Where they belong.
If you're ready to shatterceilings, crush self-doubt and
build a career in life,overflowing with growth and
abundance, you're in the rightplace.
Here's the real deal.
We talk about the real stuffhere.
Imposter syndrome,perfectionism, fear, burnout,
you name it.
It's raw.
It's honest.
And it's exactly what you needto level up.
(01:29):
So grab a seat, pop in those earbuds and let's dive in.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-202 (01:33):
In her 18 years at Google.
Today's guest grew from entrylevel to executive where she
most recently led a largeoperations team that helped
drive billions of dollars ofrevenue per year.
In 2021, she started a passionproject within Google called Own
Your Career, which grew to oneof the largest career
(01:54):
development programs in thehistory of Google.
She is an expert on acing a jobsearch, building relationships,
personal branding, and y'all, somuch more.
Her work has been featured inHarvard Business Review,
Entrepreneur Inc., and Forbes,and y'all, I gotta add in these
next tidbits because damn, youare about to be impressed.
She's a licensed private pilotand a tapped, and y'all, she has
(02:18):
the most incredible, meet cutestory that was actually featured
in New York times.
So talk about wild y'all, butshe's a wife, a mom and the
author of the book, wildcourage, go after what you want
and get it.
So without further ado, Jennywould, I'm so excited.
You're here.
Welcome to the glass ceiling andsticky floor podcast.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_ (02:40):
Hello, hello! It is such a joy to be
here today.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-202 (02:44):
Oh my gosh, I'm so pumped and the
title of your book, we're goingto dive in, it's Wild Courage.
Go after what you want and getit.
And girl, you did, on a subway,chasing after someone that you
had no idea who he was, was hemarried or not.
Spoiler alert y'all, he wasn't,thankfully, but now he is.
Can you please tell me thisstory of chasing your husband
(03:05):
out of the subway?
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_11102 (03:07):
I most certainly can.
Okay, so the story is, isbananas when you now know how it
turned out, which you justshared.
This stranger, this attractivestranger on the subway, uh, was
standing about 20 feet away fromme.
I was writing at home from workone day in New York City.
And, uh, I was just like reallytaken by this guy thinking,
what's he all about?
Where's he going?
(03:28):
Where's he coming from?
What does he do?
And I said, I made a deal withmyself.
I said, if he gets off at mystop, then I will try to strike
up a conversation with him.
But if not, then.
So, he gets off at the nextstop, which is not my stop, and
I said, Okay, that's theuniverse telling me it wasn't
meant to be.
The people got off the train,new people got on the train, and
(03:50):
just as the doors were about toclose, I said, No! Screw the
universe! And I ran off thattrain.
So I chased after him to catchup with him, and, uh, as he was,
uh, Exiting the, the stationstairs, I tapped him on the
shoulder.
I said, excuse me, I'm sorry tobother you.
And he said, that's okay.
You seem nice.
(04:10):
And I said, well, you're, thispart is so crazy because this
was, I had no plan as to whatwas going to come out of my
mouth.
I just knew I didn't want to letthis moment pass me by.
So what came out of my mouth wasyou were on my subway and I
thought you were cute.
I can't see if you're wearing awedding ring because you're
(04:31):
wearing gloves.
It was like a blizzard inJanuary in New York city.
I said, I can't see if you'rewearing a wedding ring because
you're wearing gloves, but inthe event that you're not
married, I'd love to give you mybusiness card.
And, and I didn't mean to bethat, I mean, I guess I was
being, uh, uh, assertive if, if,if you will.
By taking all these steps, but Ididn't mean for that to be my
(04:53):
opening line.
And of course, he's got a greatsense of humor.
So he kind of chuckled and, uh,I gave him my business card.
We went out a week later, had,and I just knew in that moment,
sitting there across from him atthis dive bar on Columbus and
75th called dive 75.
I just knew, I was like, this isit.
This is the one.
Um, and yeah, we've been veryhappily married 11 years with
(05:14):
two kids.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-202 (05:15):
Oh my goodness.
Well, okay.
I gotta know.
Have you ever done somethinglike that before?
Not just like with men, but justin general.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (05:24):
Yeah, so I, it's, I definitely err on
the side of more bold.
One example is when I was inmiddle school, I was with a
bunch of friends in this yogurtshop and they dared me, or I
dared myself, somehow a dare wasput out there to stand on a
table and sing my country tis ofthee.
(05:44):
And, and I was like, okay, sure.
Why not?
What do I have to lose?
And it's not like I didn't haveany moments of embarrassment in
life or feeling insecure.
I mean, I have those moments allthe time, but it's almost like I
would test myself to see if Icould build a thicker skin just
by doing one little dare at atime.
So just like I dared myself orsomebody dared me and I accepted
(06:06):
the dare in middle school to dothat.
And I did, I sang up, I stood upthere and sang all the stanzas,
um, until the very end.
Do thee we sing, or whatever thelast line is, right?
Of thee I sing.
Somebody, some, some, somebodysing something.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09 (06:23):
That's it.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_ (06:25):
right?
You know, similar to how in thisFlash moment on the subway.
I was like, just do it.
Just go for it.
So it's not like I wouldregularly walk up to people on
the street and give them mynumber.
There was something that daythat like some inertia that
pushed me off of, of pushed meout of my subway seat and told
me, no, Jenny, go chase afterwhat you want in life, because
(06:46):
if we sit back and let life addidly, Pass us by, then, you
know, we'll probably not end upwhere we would want to, if we
were choosing our own destinyone moment at a time.
And that applies to life.
That applies to work.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-202 (07:00):
Oh my goodness.
100%.
And I, I love opening with thisstory because it's the red
thread of your life and it'slike this red thread of the
book.
And it's so amazing, but.
You know, you were an executiveat Google.
We talked a little bit aboutthat.
Tell me what you're doing nowand how this book came to be.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (07:16):
Yeah, sure.
So now I, so I was at Google foralmost 18 years and I, I left,
um, this past summer, so summer2024, because I was so excited
about writing a book that helpedpeople get more of what they
want in their career.
To answer your question, I'mdoing this full time.
(07:37):
I am a full time writer andkeynote speaker and corporate
facilitator, workshop leader,um, consultant, and I'm having
an absolute ball, an absoluteball.
It was really, really scary.
I'm the breadwinner for myfamily.
It was really scary to leaveGoogle, which is a substantial
(07:58):
paycheck.
As an exact and, you know, a lotof financial comfort and
benefits and, you know, I've gottwo kids like it's, it's, it was
a lot, uh, took a lot for me towalk away a lot of soul
searching and thinking andfrankly, reevaluating the value
I place on money versus beinghigh net freedom or.
(08:19):
Um, just being able to put allof my time and energy into what
I am currently loving.
So really really hard decision,but I'm having an absolute ball
And I am just working on thisbook promoting this book full
time, which is just an absoluteblast.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-202 (08:36):
Oh my gosh.
Well, I've got the book.
I've got an early release copyy'all.
Don't be jealous.
But in your book, you talk abouthow courage is essential to
success because we are oftentimid on the inside and
absolutely agree with all ofthat.
But how can someone push throughthat fear?
(09:00):
To take action so they can chasea man off the subway or leave a
nice six figure job at googleLike how do we take that action?
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (09:09):
Yeah.
So I think it's meeting yourselfwhere you are, right?
Not everybody.
And we actually have to bereally mindful of this in the
book.
And I was asking for feedbackearly on, like, is this book
realistic for people?
Cause most people are not goingto stand on the table at the
yogurt shop.
And most people are not going tochase an attractive stranger off
the subway, but there's a lot ofbig, small things people can do
(09:31):
each day.
And it's actually the name of mynewsletter, perhaps you want a
mentor or a sponsor and you'rejust too nervous to ask or you,
and so the big small thing issending them that note, right?
Or, pinging them after or noteven asking them to be your
mentor, but after your VP atyour company leads the town hall
in front of 200 people.
Just pinging them and beinglike, that was so helpful that
(09:53):
that they gave me a lot ofinformation about this upcoming
reorg that I didn't have, forexample, even that is the
beginning of building arelationship that's not chasing
someone off the subway.
That's not like followingsomeone into the hall after they
deliver this in a presentationto the company and being like,
Hey, will you mentor me?
I'm Jenny, right?
And yes, I have done things likethat.
But again, meeting, meetingyourself where you are, if
(10:15):
you're.
Perhaps we're introverted oryou're more shy or you grew up
in a culture that is much morereserved or just different than
the American or Westerncorporate culture.
Right?
Where or even a Google culturewhere like a lot of Latitude is
given to people at very bottomrungs who have great ideas,
(10:36):
right?
So I have a product, I have apersonality and I'm a product of
the culture that allows forthese more bold moves, but there
are all these little teeny,tiny, big, small things you can
do each day, like asking for aone on one with your boss's
boss, or asking your boss, ifyou can present for 20 minutes
in their leadership meeting toexpose this cool project you're
working on, or the, you know,ideas I just shared.
(10:58):
Pinging, uh, uh, a leader atyour company after their
presentation and saying, Hey,that was awesome.
I learned a lot and leaving itat that.
So what are these micro momentsthat you can integrate into your
day that still help you,frankly, have more courage.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2024 (11:11):
I love that idea of the micro
moments and big small thingsbecause I think when we're
thinking about The big ask orthe next big bold step.
It's always like this hugemonumental thing and people
forget the power of just thosetiny moments, like pinging the
VP, which then you've gotrecognition there.
(11:32):
They're talking to you.
They're noticing you, even ifit's just in a small gesture of
gratitude.
Like you
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1110 (11:37):
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Can I share another one?
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09- (11:39):
yeah, please
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_ (11:40):
Here's another example.
Occasionally, you'll be in a oneon one meeting with your manager
and they'll just like drop ahumdinger on you, right?
Like a total doozy of a projectand you're overwhelmed and
insecure and you feel impostersyndrome that they're even
giving you this project and youhave literally no clue where to
start.
So mild courage is going back tothem and asking for them to
(12:03):
clarify like, Hey, what are thegoals here?
And you know, what should I befocused on?
And when do you want it by wildcourage is doing something that
I call a pencil sharpener.
A pencil sharpener is within thefirst 24 hours of getting that
Totally overwhelming project.
You just open up a blankdocument on your computer.
You can jot it down on pen andpaper too, I suppose.
(12:23):
And you write down a couplecategories.
Let's say the categories aregoal of the project, self
imposed deadline, first threestakeholders I want to meet with
on this project, questions thatI need you to answer, boss, You
know, fill in one, one othercategory, you then rough it out
rough sketch.
That's why I call it a pencilsharpener.
Like you're just kind of likewarming up the ideas, but you're
(12:46):
creating an artifact.
You're creating something thatexists on paper that did not
exist before, especially inknowledge work where so much is
like ephemeral ideas ortheoretical discussion, right?
Bosses love things that move theball forward and a pencil
sharpener, which is just acouple of bullets in these three
to five categories on a sharedoc shows that you're moving the
(13:09):
ball forward.
And that's really all you needto get started on a big, scary,
hairy project.
And then share it with them.
And this part is so, so, socritical, Erica, share it with
them within 24 hours.
The reason that is important isbecause then you're not stewing
on the Oh my gosh, it's beenseven days.
We have our next one on onecoming up.
I don't have anythinginteresting to share with them.
(13:31):
I should have had a lot ofprogress on this in seven days.
Like no, if it's within 24hours, the expectations are so
low of what you'd be able to puttogether, right?
Even do it like day of, right?
Like the hour after you leavethat meeting, just get something
down and you'll realize twothings.
One, as you get some ideas down,You come up with other ideas and
it starts to solidify in yourmind what they might be looking
for.
And two, you're giving themsomething to react to your, your
(13:52):
boss, something to react to,which is always going to a show
that you are the kind of personwho has a bias to action and B
allows them to start the dancewith you of like, Oh, we can
tweak this.
We can adjust this.
Nah, it's not really that goal.
That's more of this.
You put these two stakeholders.
Those are the right ones.
This third one I disagree with.
Let me write in on this documentwho the person should be.
And then boom, you're off to theraces.
(14:13):
So again, so, and that is wildcourage, right?
Mild courage is asking for morehelp because it still takes
courage to ask for more help ormore direction from your boss.
But wild courage is.
Taking those next stepsyourself, and even if they're
wrong, even if they're rough,and that is the pencil
sharpener.
And that, again, is a big, smallthing, right?
(14:33):
Not too hard to do that.
But people think it needs to be,like, perfect before they go
back to the boss and, and haveanother conversation about it.
Whatever that scary project is.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2 (14:42):
That is so powerful because I'm
thinking back to when I was incorporate America and how
impressed I would have been if Ithrow out this big project for
someone to do and they came backto me by end of day or the next
morning.
With, like you said, the mostsimplest of documents with just
like some goals and next stepsand ideas.
(15:02):
It shows you're proactive.
It shows you're taking aninterest.
Like, you're gonna be my go toperson.
So there is so much power inthat one example you just gave.
So much.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_11102 (15:12):
I am such a nerd because when you
said that, I had chills.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-20 (15:19):
I'm literally like a chief people
officer.
I'm like, like, and that's whyso many people, they're so
scared of doing these tinylittle things.
They don't realize what a bigimpact it would have.
I think what's so crazy is likeyou said, we think it has to be
perfect.
We think it has to be this bigwhole thing, but it's that
timing piece, right?
Like nobody expects greatness in12 hours,
jenny-wood_1_12-09- (15:40):
everybody's impressed by bias to action and
everybody's impressed by justalso the confidence it shows to
take a stab at some ideas, evenif they're wrong.
Like another thing I say is givethree options, have a POV.
Your boss is not some wizardbehind a curtain with all the
magical answers.
If they're giving you thisproject, they don't necessarily
know the best way to go about itand you can get there together.
(16:01):
But let's say that the projectwas, I don't know, figure out if
we're going to do vegan vanillaice cream, strawberry ice cream,
or chocolate ice cream next yearas our like big product launch.
They don't necessarily have a.
An opinion like you, and youdon't have to have the right
opinion.
You might say, actually, the,what I know about these three
flavors working in the ice creamindustry for a long time, I
think we should go with vanillaand it, that in and of itself,
(16:22):
like giving three options showsthat you're able to look at
things from differentperspectives and having a,
having a POV saying, and Irecommend we go with X shows
that you have the confidence,the future leadership potential,
the.
the, uh, I'll just
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-20 (16:38):
the gumption,
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1110 (16:38):
of anything else.
Yeah, the gumption! Thank you!Right, exactly.
Yeah, um, to actually have aperspective.
And that's what, that's the kindof person who gets a raise, who
gets a promotion, who gets theleadership.
And the other thing that I'mpicking up on is that, you know,
when you were chief peopleofficer, so you probably saw
these opportunities all the timeand you probably saw how often
(17:00):
people don't write that halfpage, one page, no more than
that doc by the end of the dayor the next day.
And that's why I got chillsbecause it really does stand
out.
And that's why.
It's this like tiny little movethat's not chasing somebody off
the subway.
It's just putting down a coupleof bullets that may or may not
be correct and sharing themwithin 24 hours.
(17:21):
But something concrete, some inkon paper, but nobody, nobody
does it.
Right?
Nobody
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2 (17:27):
they don't.
They don't.
And I love that we are on ascale of zero to chasing someone
off a subway.
That's our standard here, guys.
Oh my gosh.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-202 (17:37):
Totally.
Totally.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-202 (17:39):
in the book, you have nine labels
that you turn in to powerfultraits that help you fuel your
courage.
Now, I'm not going to have youname all nine traits here,
right?
When it's not pop quiz,
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (17:50):
Yeah, I can.
Would you like
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-20 (17:52):
bet you could, but what are some of
your, your favorite ones to talkabout?
And like, let's dive into, Idon't know, just pick one.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (18:00):
Okay, I'm going to pick the spiciest
one.
Okay, I am going to share themall.
So it's weird, selfish,shameless, nosy, obsessed,
manipulative, brutal, reckless,and bossy.
And they're all These powerfulwords, especially for women, but
truly for everyone that createthe bars of an invisible cage
that keeps you playing small.
(18:21):
And I want all of you listeningto stop playing small and start
playing smart.
And these are the traits thatare going to help you play smart
when used in a savvy, insaneway.
Of course, we don't want to harmanybody, right?
We don't want to, um, be cruelor abusive.
These are obviously.
Plays on words here, areclaiming of language.
So manipulative is, is, isbecoming my favorite one to talk
(18:43):
to.
Cause it's the one I was mostscared to write about.
Yeah.
Yeah.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2024 (18:48):
I love to say too, and just a
little plug here, I've beencalled every single one of those
things in the book, y'all, butyes, let's talk about being
manipulative.
Let's do it.
How, how did you, Like take thatand turn that into this
powerful, positive thing.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1110 (19:04):
So manipulative to me is just build
influence through empathy andcraft lasting relationships.
Because at the end of the day,we are.
Always trying to influencesomebody or something, whether
it is.
Me trying to influence apublisher to give me a big book
deal, or me trying to influencemy son Ari to get the hell out
(19:28):
of the house in the morning.
And I give him just enoughchoice.
Do you want to wear the redshirt or the blue shirt to make
him feel like he has agencywhile not derailing my agenda to
be at school in seven minutes.
So I think the first part isjust acknowledging that it is
okay to want to influence asituation.
We're doing it right now.
We're not speaking just to likemassage each other's eardrums.
(19:49):
We are speaking with theintention to influence your
audience to help them getbetter.
And sometimes it's for analtruistic purpose.
You purely want to help somebodyelse sometimes.
And like, it is okay if ourpurpose is for you to sell More
of your book or to get people toshare the episode and get other
people excited about these ideasand gain more monthly listeners,
(20:10):
and it's okay if I also have agoal of helping millions of
people through my book andhaving your listeners, all of
you listening right now, go outand buy my book, which I
encourage you to do.
I think it's first justacknowledging that it is okay to
want to influence.
And then we can start to unpackall the different ways you can.
Wield that influence at work.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2 (20:32):
Hmm.
I love that.
And you also talk about traittraps.
So tell me what is a trait trap?
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_111 (20:38):
Ah, okay.
Great question.
So trait traps are when you takethe trait too far.
So for example, obsessed isabout push, perform, It's not
about grinding yourself into apulp and overworking yourself
till you're numb, right?
Um, it's about a good strongwork ethic.
It's not about taking it too farthat you make yourself sick In
(20:59):
uh in a manipulative since wewere just talking about that.
It's about influencing in theright way And you know one trait
trap in there for example is isBuild relationships, but know
when you've maybe gone a littlebit too far.
So here's an example where thatwould fall into healthy
manipulation.
Um, and this is when I reallywanted this.
(21:21):
I'll say who it is.
Vanessa Van Edwards is this allstar author.
Um, super well known and I justwas so admired her and I was
going to Austin for an, for awork related event and I emailed
her and I said, Hey, Vanessa,I'm going to be in Austin.
I'd love to take you out tocoffee since you know, I'm
working on my first book, etc.
And she said, Okay.
(21:42):
Great.
Um, the only thing is I've gotsome travel dates that like are
just over the time you're goingto be there.
Here's when I leave.
Here's when I come back.
And I saw that she was going tobe leaving just, she was going
to be leaving Austin just beforeI arrived.
So I said, Hey, what time, um, Iguess she'd already shared her
flight information.
And I said, Oh, that is perfect.
I get in just a couple hoursbefore you.
(22:03):
We're probably going to be atthe airport at the same time.
Why don't we just get coffee atthe airport when you're about to
leave?
And I've just landed.
She's like, that's perfect.
Sounds great.
So we had this awesome coffee,you know, became friends, et
cetera.
But Erica, here's the thing.
I actually was not supposed toland a couple hours before her.
I was supposed to land a couplehours after her.
So I quickly checked the Deltawebsite for 60 bucks.
(22:24):
I got myself on a new flightthat landed earlier and.
Got me there to make my storytrue.
So, you know, some might sayliar, liar, pants on fire, but
in this case, a little whitelie, a little bit of healthy
manipulation to influence thesituation without making it
awkward or over the top ortelling her how the sausage was
made and saying like, well, Iland later, but I could use my
(22:44):
flight.
In which case you'd be like, Oh,don't do that.
That's absurd.
And I'd look a little bit, Ithink, extra right.
And, and so I think just beingsmart about how you influence or
how you Manipulate thesesituations is also important.
And so the trick trap here wouldbe just being way over the top
or exposing every single thingthat's going on in your head,
um, to the person who is therecipient of your thoughtful
(23:07):
manipulation.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2 (23:09):
love some thoughtful manipulation,
and I have done that, I couldnot even tell you how many
times.
I love the word manipulationwith that, I like to think of it
more like orchestrating myfuture, something like that, you
know?
Yeah!
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024 (23:24):
Someone else had another great name for
this that is escaping me rightnow, but if we were to call it
strategic or, um, you know,planning ahead, People wouldn't
pay nearly as much attentionabout it.
And I like to do thingsdifferently and I like to be a
little bit out there.
And so I'm calling itmanipulation and we'll see if I
get canceled.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-0 (23:46):
culture is real.
Oh my gosh.
Okay, Jenny, on this podcast wetalk a lot about the sticky
floors, which are the limitingbeliefs and toxic behaviors that
keep you stuck.
And I saw so many connections.
In the work that you do, right?
We're just kind of manipulatingour language to talk about a
little bit of the same things.
(24:06):
When you hear that, you know,sticky floors and these trait
traps and things like that, whatwas one of those that you
struggled with the most?
And then how did you get overthat?
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (24:17):
Easy, easy.
So this is again, something thatcan happen to anybody, but I
think women can be particularly,um, prone to falling into this.
And this is what I call nap workand nap work is NAP stands for
not actually promotable work.
(24:37):
And I got to credit my mom.
We were sitting together at thekitchen table and she came up
with this acronym, which Itotally love.
So not actually promotable work.
So what is that?
This is um, taking notes in themeeting always.
This is planning the offsite.
Oh, our leaders in town.
Can you plan the dinner and likethe snacks and can you organize
the share drive or come in earlyto decorate for the holiday
(24:58):
party?
That is not actually promotablework.
Yes, it is.
Important work for teams tofunction.
And it's great to build culture,you know, through these
activities.
But if you're always doing it,then you are really doing a
disservice to yourself when thestuff that you should be doing
more of is.
The stuff that's pr, that'spromotable.
(25:19):
So these are, this is like the2025 marketing plan that is the
key priority for the head ofyour company or the thing that's
most important to your boss onthe strategy for that ice cream
project that we talked aboutbefore, or anything else that
really matters for your careeror matters for the company that
you can hang your hat on andwrite a really solid bullet
(25:39):
point in your annual review.
With numbers and metrics thatyou helped move.
And it's hard to say no to thesethings, right?
Like it's hard to, for someoneto say to you, Hey, can you hop
on a call?
And can we talk about thelogistics for X, Y, Z thing?
And so owning that no andsaying, sorry, heads down now on
my H2 marketing project issomething that takes practice,
(26:01):
but really worthwhile because ifyou're.
Always getting stuck in the napwork.
You're really not puttingyourself in a position to
continue to move up in yourcareer.
And it's not like you shouldnever do it.
I think maybe 15 percent napwork is probably fine, but if
you find yourself getting tappedover and over and over again, it
takes some wild courage to pushback and say, I had a great time
(26:25):
planning the company offsitelast year, and I'm so excited to
give somebody else anopportunity to do it.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2 (26:30):
Yes.
And I can attest to that assomeone in HR, which is often
the dumping ground for a lot ofnap work.
You really do have to be smartin how much of that you take on.
And I do think as women, we areso often other focused and we
don't want to put others outthat we just take it on
ourselves, but you're right.
Like start to list that out.
(26:50):
If you can't put her a number ora metric behind how that moved
the business forward, you've gotto limit that.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (26:55):
Yeah.
And in general, I would broadenthis up to saying yes to the big
and no to the small right?
The big stuff is that h2 projecton strategy or the ice cream,
you know, metric you want tomove and the small is the taking
notes, the planning the offsiteand even within HR, right?
Because I, I, I was never the.
The program I led at Google wascompletely fine as a passion
project.
I was actually never in anypeople operations role.
(27:16):
But I have enough experienceworking with those folks to know
that even within there, there ispromotable work and non
promotable work.
So for example, you know, ifyou're doing something in the HR
capacity, at least.
Find a metric you can tie it to.
If your company has an annualsatisfaction survey and career
development is always in the 40percent range or whatever it is,
like at least I'm doing thisthing with the goal to move this
from 40 percent satisfaction to47 percent satisfaction, as
(27:40):
opposed to always taking notesfor the meeting, which there's
no metric tied to that.
It's just helping out andsomebody else can help out next
time if you've done it too much.
squadcaster-91ci_1_ (27:48):
absolutely.
And I will say here too, I thinkit's helpful to track that stuff
because when you sit there andyou tell your old pale, stale
white male boss, like, Hey, I'mthe one always taking the notes.
They're going to be like, no,you're not.
I asked little Bobby to do it.
And you're like, but if you havethe metrics, you can put that in
a performance review.
I took, you know, all of thenotes on the strategic HR
(28:11):
meetings for 87 percent of themeetings in 2024.
Now it's not it's it's still napwork, right?
But when you can document it andput it in that review You're
also going to bring that tolight where you're spending your
time So I still think you canfind those metrics and make them
Sound impressive for somethingthat's not that impressive, like
(28:31):
note taking.
And then maybe you'll get yourboss to think a little
differently in 2025.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_11102 (28:36):
I love it.
I love it.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-20 (28:38):
All right, Jenny, can you tell me
about the ROC, CHOC, TOC, andWOC formula?
What is, what is it, and like,how can we use it?
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (28:48):
Yeah, for sure.
So this is goal setting in anutshell, essentially, and rock
is your big thing you want toaccomplish and have wild courage
when you set your rock, right?
Not like, oh, I want to makesome music and put it on
Spotify, right?
Like, no, I want to have, youknow, Um, this let's, let's just
like aim for the stars.
I want to have a Grammy awardwinning album by 2029.
(29:12):
Right?
Okay.
So that's your big rock and Icall it a rock because if you
think about filling the jar ofyour life, the rocks are the
things that take up the mostspace or should take up the most
space the pebbles.
Are going to then fill up thenext amount of space.
And then the sand is like littlebitty things, but your rocks are
the big ones, those big thingsthat you kind of want to like
continue to push.
And then chalk is write it down.
So I oftentimes on my monitorright in front of me here have a
(29:35):
goal and that goal will be, youknow, Grammy award winning album
by 2029 or whatever it is.
So I can keep reminding myselfof what that big rock is and be
specific there, right?
That's when you can say, youknow, I want to.
Um, to get there, you know, Igot to, I got to put some
pebbles in there as well andsome sand in there as well.
So I want to record my firstthree practice tracks by end of
(29:58):
June.
And I want to reach out to sevenproducers by the end of August.
Right.
So that's where you can get alittle bit more granular in
these micro goals.
Cause we're also talking aboutlike, what are these baby steps
you can take if you're not goingto chase someone off the subway.
Um, and then, so that's rock is,what is your goal?
chalk, chalk is writing down.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2 (30:15):
What are we talking
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (30:16):
We're talking about, you're just
saying it out loud.
So sometimes like I am not amanifested into the world kind
of person, but I am a, webelieve what we say kind of
person.
And the more we say these wordsout loud, the more we feel
comfortable having that goalversus feel foolish having that
goal.
For example, in 2006, when Iwanted to work for Google, I was
(30:37):
living with my parents at thetime and I walked around the
house, like this like nuttymantra.
I'm going to work for Google.
I'm going to work for Google.
I'm going to work for Google.
And Google is like the hottestthing then with the lava lamps
and the beanbag chairs and allthese like sizzling news
segments, you know, promotingthis as the best company to work
for ever.
And I was like, I'm going towork at Google.
So I was talking this goal outloud so that I wouldn't shy away
(30:59):
from it and just have it kind ofstew around in my brain and my
heart and my stomach, but never,we're going to work for Google.
Really believe that it couldhappen by saying it out loud.
You have people who can keep youaccountable.
And frankly, more importantly,you keep yourself accountable.
And then finally walk is you gotto walk the walk.
You got to, you got to reach outto those seven producers.
You got to record those threetracks.
You've got to send that resumeto Google.
(31:20):
You got to jump off the subwaytrain.
And that is rock, chalk, talk,walk goal setting in a nutshell.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2024 (31:27):
I love that.
My favorite step in all of thatis the talk portion because
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_11 (31:31):
Tell me why.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09- (31:33):
found that that is what makes me do
the thing.
And I'll give you an examplebecause I can dream it all day.
I can write it in my plannersand I can journal about it, but
if I am really struggling withmy sticky floors of worrying
about what other people think orperfectionism or this, that, and
the other.
If I don't tell somebody else inmy circle that I know will hold
(31:56):
me accountable, that dream willeventually wither and die.
Like I just know myself.
And so for me talking about it,and when I wanted to start this
podcast, I didn't do it for avery long time and I know
myself.
So I did the thing to set it inmotion, right?
I did the thing I couldn't takeback.
And I sent an email to just 10women who I knew would support
(32:18):
me.
And boom! It was out there, ithad to be done.
Mmm.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_11102 (32:24):
I love it.
That is so, so, so great.
And then as you say it out loud,you start to believe it, right?
Or you get other ideas, like itbecomes an iterative process.
Talking it is almost like yourown little pencil sharpener,
right?
Where You put the idea out thereand other people might say, Oh,
well, what about this woman?
Or you'd be awesome, Erica, oryou were born for this.
And then that like builds theconfidence and reduces the
(32:44):
imposter syndrome.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2024 (32:46):
I love all of that.
Jenny, if you could go back intime to The young Jenny walking
around her parents housemumbling, I'm going to work for
Google.
I'm going to work for Google,you know, and you, you think
about all the things you'velearned in your time and your
experience.
What piece of advice would yougive that Jenny today?
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (33:05):
Chill the fuck out.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-20 (33:10):
Oh, there's a round of applause for
that one because I need to geton that bandwagon.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_111 (33:16):
And like other people have told me
this too.
I remember sitting on the couchwith Kim Scott in her house, and
she's just been like an angelhelping me.
Kim Scott, who wrote RadicalCandor, she's just been an angel
on this book project, and areally wonderful mentor.
And we were talking, This point,like, okay, what else should I
be doing on the book launch?
And she's like, uh, relax.
And I was like, okay, yeah,points taken.
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09- (33:38):
Well, that actually vibes very much
with who she is.
And I'll give her a shamelessplug here.
She was on this podcast about ayear ago.
So head back and listen to theKim Scott episode, y'all.
Um, oh my gosh, she's amazing.
Jenny, if people want to workwith you.
Where can they find you?
I'll tell everybody.
We're going to link the book forthe pre orders in the show
(34:01):
notes.
First of all, when does the booklaunch?
Let's, let's start with that.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (34:05):
Yeah.
March 25th.
So
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09- (34:07):
Okay.
March 25th coming for us.
I love it where I'm going tolink the pre orders, but where
can people find you?
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (34:13):
Yeah.
Uh, to bring me into yourorganization for a keynote or
any kind of speaking engagement,fireside chat or workshop, it's,
it's Jennywood.
com slash speaking,
squadcaster-91ci_1_12-09-2024 (34:23):
I love it.
Jenny, this was so fun.
Thank you so much.
And best of luck on the booklaunch and everything else.
It's going to be amazing.
jenny-wood_1_12-09-2024_1 (34:31):
Thank you so much.
What a fun conversation to havetoday and hope all of you
listening got something out ofit and thank you for giving us
an opportunity to contribute toyour goals.
Jenny just gave us the blueprintfor breaking through.
From her signature pencilsharpener technique that can
change how you show up at workto reframing manipulative.
As building influence withempathy, this conversation was
(34:54):
packed with just game changinginsights.
Y'all.
Jennie story reminds us all thecourage.
Isn't about waiting for theperfect moment.
No, no, no.
It's about making the move thatscares you.
And showing up again and again,and again, her book wild courage
hits the shelves on March 25th,2025, but you can pre-order it
(35:17):
now.
And.
But you can pre-order it now.
And you should.
If you're ready to stop playingsmall and start building a life
you love, this is yourpermission slip until next time
y'all keep chasing those dreams.
Even if it means jumping off thetrain.
Thanks for tuning in to theglass ceiling and sticky floor
(35:38):
podcast.
If this episode lit a fire underyou, go ahead and hit that five
star review.
It's how this message lands inthe hands of the women that need
to hear it.
Most, and don't stop now, headto Amazon order the book, glass
ceilings, and sticky floors.
Follow me on Facebook,Instagram, LinkedIn, antique
talk for daily doses ofinspiration and all the tools
(35:58):
you need to keep smashing thoseceilings.
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