All Episodes

March 18, 2025 42 mins

Between 1999 and 2011, 17 Salvadoran women were sentenced to up to 40 years in prison after experiencing miscarriages, which were shockingly classified as aggravated homicide.

This episode unpacks that outrageous reality, raising questions about how miscarriages (spontaneous abortions) can even be treated as crimes and why the government chose to prosecute rather than protect these women in a healthcare crisis. We speak with Lina Lopez, an abortion activist with Abortiondata.org and Viva Futura who shares her insights from her experiences as an abortion doula in Colombia, a country that has faced significant restrictions on abortion rights.

The goal? To shed light on the stigma surrounding abortion and advocate for a narrative that places women's health and autonomy front and center.

Check out the shownotes for resources and more!

Takeaways:

  • In El Salvador, the shocking reality is that women can face homicide charges for miscarriages, which raises serious questions about healthcare and justice.
  • Abortion stigma is a global issue, deeply rooted in societal views of womanhood and autonomy over one's body, and it's time to challenge these norms.
  • Data shows that legal restrictions on abortion do not prevent the procedure but rather lead to unsafe practices that endanger women's lives.
  • Conversations about abortion should be grounded in empathy and respect for individual experiences, emphasizing that every story matters in this discourse.

Links referenced in this episode:


This episode is done in partnership with Podcasthon, a global charity movement focused on raising awareness for the charities and nonprofits that we love through the voices of podcasters all around the world. This week, and this week only from March 15 to 21st, over 1600 podcasters from around the world are dedicating one episode to a cause that they care deeply about.

-----

Support the Podcast: Click here to send in a one-time or monthly donation

Join the Podcast Mailing list: https://www.globalhealthpursuit.com/mailing-list

Make sure to follow me on LinkedIn, Instagram and Facebook!

Email me at hetal@globalhealthpursuit.com

Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Between 1999 and 2011, 17Salvadorian women were sentenced
to up to 40 years in jailfollowing reported miscarriages,
or as they would call it,spontaneous abortions.
These women were charged withaggravated homicides.
Yeah, you heard that right.

(00:21):
Aggravated homicide.
If you haven't heard thiscase, this may be shocking to you
because one, how could youprevent a miscarriage from happening
in the first place?
Two, how and why would this beseen as a homicide?
And three, why did theSalvadorian government prosecute

(00:42):
and not protect these womenthrough what seemingly was a healthcare
matter?
Welcome to another episode ofthe Global Health Pursuit podcast.
The podcast where we explorethe world's most pressing health
challenges through abeginner's lens.

(01:05):
My name is Hebdal Bahman.
I'm a biomedical engineerturned social impact podcaster and
I'm your host.
Today we're talking about abortion.
It's a conversation aboutabortion through the stories of women
in countries where laws haveoppressed their rights and even criminalized
them.
It's a conversation about dataand how we could use data to destigmatize

(01:29):
the narrative around abortionby improving access to reliable global
information and presenting itas a public health and social justice
issue.
Notice how I didn't mentionthe word political because I really
don't think it's a politicalissue, do you?
The criminalization ofabortion has been put into law in

(01:52):
countries around the worldwhere even spontaneous miscarriages
are seen as abortions.
The case of the 17 Salvadoranwomen is just an example.
Our guest today is someone whospent so much of her life in Colombia,
a country that was once one ofthe very few countries where abortion
was totally banned.

(02:13):
And through her experiences asan abortion doula, yep, that job
exists.
She realized just howstigmatized abortion is around the
world.
I want to start thisconversation by talking about the
definition of abortion stigma.
When I was taking a lookthrough your report of Colombia's

(02:37):
abortions laws and the stigmaaround it, there was one thing that
really stood out to me and itwas through a paper by Kumar, Hasini
and Mitchell.
This is what they say.
They have proposed one of themost iconic definitions of abortion
stigma and they define it asthe negative attribute ascribed to

(03:03):
women who seeked to terminatea pregnancy that marks them internally
or externally as inferior toideals of womanhood.
So I thought that was so interesting.
What are your thoughts aroundthis definition and how would you
define it?
I think that this definitionis great because help us to understand

(03:27):
better the discussions that wehave nowadays regarding legal restrictions
of abortion or not.
You're listening to LenaLopez, a sociologist with a postdoctorate
degree in Social Innovationand a joint Erasmus Mundus Masters
in Women's and Gender Studies.
She's an abortion activist anddirector and founder of abortiondata.org

(03:52):
and Viva Futura, a feministand transnational organization dedicated
to revolutionizing thedelivery and accessibility of information
regarding sexual health andnon reproductive rights.
By connecting scholarlyknowledge with feminism and activism,
they empower individuals tobecome agents of change.

(04:15):
Lena has served as amultilingual abortion counselor and
a partnerships coordinator forLatin America at Women First Digital.
Usually all those discussionsare with with the debate between
if we are defending life or not.
But then when you startchecking really close and detailed

(04:36):
all the arguments, they arenot really defending life.
The restrictions of abortionsincrease maternal death, but also
a new study in the US saysthat is also include newborn death
but also decrease the qualityof life.
So when you go like at thosestep backs and you check this definition
of a stigma, you see that thereal problem behind is women having

(05:01):
autonomy over their bodies.
There is just something that Iwill just add to this definition
that they retake thisdefinition but they also add a layer
of healthcare fears like allthis part of people having in mind
that abortion could besomething super scary, but also that
abortion procedures happen inpretty ugly dirty places.

(05:25):
And that's also a layer ofstigma that I would add.
But I think mainly all thediscussions that we have with abortion
goes around this idea of womenaccepting with an abortion that have
sex for fun, that they don'twant always to be mom and also that
they don't want always to takecare of others over their own well

(05:47):
being.
And these three things arecompletely challenging of what we
learned traditionally that awoman is or how a woman behaves.
Growing up in Colombia.
What was your very firstexperience with the term abortion?
For those who don't know,Colombia is a country pretty Catholic

(06:11):
traditional in that terms onthat values.
In Latin America.
The first time that I hearabout abortion it was in 2006, 2005.
I was around 15, 14 years oldI think.
So it was because Colombia atthat point was one of the 4% of the

(06:31):
countries that abortion wastotally banned, totally prohibited
in all cases.
And there was a case of awoman who needed a therapeutic abortion.
That means an abortion withyour life is at risk or it's because
of health reasons.
She had cancer and she couldnot get access to her treatment because
when you get chemotherapy thatcan cause an abortion and when abortion

(06:55):
is criminalized, you need thiskind of treatment.
You cannot get access to it.
There was three organizations.
It was Women's Link, so LaMesa por Lavida de las Salute.
They were asking the court tochange the law.
It was a lawyer called MonicaRoa who represent the case to decriminalize
abortion in three cases.

(07:15):
In case of sexual violence,risk of life of the pregnant person
and enviability of the fetusup to the end of the pregnancy.
Day one.
We got the ruling C355 that itallows abortion on these three cases.
But when that happened, it wasalready too late for her now.
Now, according to the centerfor Reproductive Rights, even though

(07:38):
this ruling was a big stepforward for women's reproductive
rights in Colombia, theinclusion of abortion as a crime
in the penal code creates astigma for both those who are seeking
abortions and the healthcareproviders who perform them.
Doctors were still scared togo to jail and therefore many Colombian

(08:00):
women were unable to accesssafe abortion services even when
they fell within theexceptions of the law.
So what do they do?
Well, they relied onclandestine abortions that would
ultimately threaten theirhealth, their lives and of course
their dignity.
And it's not the first casethat a state ruled something that

(08:23):
is already too late in termsof abortion here.
Cancer was already in a stagefour and she could not get access
any longer to chemotherapy or anything.
She died.
She was also a mom of anotherdaughter at that point.
For me, it's those cases thatalways is a concern regarding what
is the pro life movementtalking about.

(08:45):
Because when you say that youare pro life, it means that you are
defending life.
And that means also that youshould defend this case like this
kind of treatment, like anabortion to save the life of people,
to save the well being of people.
So it was super shocking forme because it was the first time
that I just faced the realitythat not always the state gonna protect

(09:06):
your life.
You know, when you think aboutbeing pro life in this type of movement,
you always think about prolife for the baby and not for the
mom.
And that is so impactful whatyou said because it's like if you're
pro life, you should be pro life.
Everyone, mom, baby, every,everyone involved.

(09:26):
I just know that if there arepeople listening, and I have a lot
of people who listen to thispodcast in the US and right now there
is a huge divide of people whoare pro life and then pro choice.
And it feels like you'rewalking on eggshells when you're

(09:49):
talking to people about this,especially if you don't know where
they stand.
What was your family's take onall of this that was happening in
Colombia around this movement.
This is a really complexquestion because I feel like some
things struck to you more thanthe other people around you.

(10:10):
Because for my mom at thatpoint, of course she's super Catholic
and still she is super Catholic.
So this topic is always likesomething that appealed to her a
lot.
But also we have like a reallyrich discussion regarding that.
And at that point for her itwas not making sense what was going
on on the cart.

(10:30):
Because usually when peopletalk about abortion, they imagine
this idea of like a teenagerwho wants to get an abortion.
And this is super stigmatizedidea, first of all, because a teenager
is if the person wants tointerrupt the pregnancy, they should
have the right to do it.
But then also they just havethis really narrow image of what

(10:51):
abortion means.
So for her was like why thiswoman cannot have access to a treatment
that she needs, but in hermind would not be possible that an
like an abortion restrictioncan have some relationship with these
things.
And still when we talk aboutthese kind of restrictions in country
like El Salvador, Honduras forhair is always the same question.

(11:13):
But what happened if I need anabortion because I just get an accident?
Well, it's restricted.
The doctor can go to jail, soyou're not going to get access to
the abortion.
And it's still something thatmakes tons of noise in her mind that
for her it's like just thepieces are just falling apart.
And sometimes I just hear hertalking with her friends, they are

(11:35):
against abortion and she'strying to explain these small things
that they are super importantwhen we talk about these restrictions.
And that's also the reason whyit's so important understand that
abortion is a healthcare matter.
Because when we just see it asa political discussion between.
I agree, I disagree.
We just really lost thepossibility to see all the real aspects

(11:56):
of all the fact that involvedabortion in terms of health care,
in terms of health.
And all the many times thatabortion is just a healthcare procedure
that we needed.
Could be physical reason,mental reason, economical reason,
or social reason.
But sometimes all this stigmareally don't let people to see the

(12:17):
big picture of what abortion is.
And sometimes even this newspeople really cannot make the real
match.
It just make noise.
Sometimes it seems like socialmedia, the news and the media in
general will portray issueslike abortion in a way that is divisive
and political.
When in reality, I think thatwhat she's trying to say is we really

(12:40):
need to distill theinformation of what an abortion is
and how it affects A woman inher body.
How can we remove the noiseand see it for what it truly is without
putting a politicalaffiliation or a label on it?
And because we're mentioningpolitics here, I was curious and
wanted to know when abortioneven became a political issue, at

(13:03):
least in the United States.
According to an NPR article byDeepa Shivaram, abortion wasn't always
as politically charged as itis today.
Even after the Supreme Courtruled on Roe v.
Wade In 1973, there wereDemocratic and Republican candidates
against abortion.
For a long time this wassomething that appealed to candidates,

(13:25):
Catholic voters.
And then in 1976, Republicansadopted an anti abortion stance in
their party platform and theGOP became this political vehicle
for the movement as a morevocal Christian right started to
rise.
Of course now, since theSupreme Court overturned Roe V.

(13:48):
Wade on June 24, 2022, endingfederal protection of abortion rights,
now 1 in 3 women live in theUS where abortion is not accessible.
You lead an organizationcalled abortiondata.org and I think
the work that you're doing isso is so important because it's not

(14:08):
just a US problem, but it's aproblem all over the world.
When I was scrolling on yourwebsite, there was a chart that showed
country classifications byincome level and abortion rates.
And it showed that the mostunintended pregnancies occurred in
low income countries and themost unintended pregnancies that
ended in abortion was inmiddle income countries.

(14:32):
And it's so interestingbecause the difference was like 66%
in middle income countriesversus 40% in low income countries.
What would you say when youlook at that data?
How would you interpret that?
This study is superinteresting and has some limitations
because it's just based onunintended pregnancies and not all
abortions happen on unintended prognosis.

(14:55):
But it's super interestingbecause the study has like this relationship
that present like most of theunintended pregnancy happens in low
income countries and that'sfor the first analysis that you can
do can be the result of thelack of access to sexual and reproductive
care services.
But that also includes thingslike lack of infrastructure in the

(15:18):
country.
So for example those countrieslike Colombia, that even we are not
in the low income country, wehave this kind of characteristics
sometimes.
Like there are some areas thatyou need to travel hours to get to
the closest healthcare service.
I live in Pennsylvania andaccording to the center for Reproductive
Rights, the state of abortionlaw's constitution and court decisions

(15:40):
on abortion has been noted ashostile here.
Yeah, that doesn't sound too Friendly.
I guess at least it's one stepup from being illegal.
Now that the Supreme Court hasoverturned Roe, abortion will likely
remain accessible inPennsylvania, but without legal protection.

(16:05):
Our current governor, JoshShapiro, is supportive of abortion
rights, but numerous medicallyunnecessary restrictions make it
really difficult to accessabortion care in my state.
But here's the thing.
From where I live, which isoutside of Philadelphia, if I drive
about an hour east, I crossinto New Jersey where abortion will

(16:27):
remain legal.
In 2022, New Jersey enacted astatutory protection for abortion
as a fundamental right.
And the state's highest courtrecognized the, quote, fundamental
right of a woman to controlher body and destiny under the New
Jersey constit.
But here's the deal.
Imagine living in San Antonio,Texas, where the nearest state where

(16:51):
abortion rights are protectedis Kansas.
Guess how long of a road tripthat is?
Yeah, almost 12 hours.
That does not sound like fun,especially if you're in need of urgent
care.
If you're in the UnitedStates, you can learn more about
abortion laws in your state bygoing to reproductiverights.org maps.

(17:15):
It'll be linked in the shownotes as well.
But when we zoom out and lookat the world, let's try to understand
why unintended pregnanciesseem to be higher in low income countries
as opposed to higher income countries.
You can understand that theunintended pregnancy are higher in

(17:36):
those low income countriesbecause access to all of these like
ad, education, the health careset, contraception, so on is difficult.
But then when you go again tothe same point in the low income
countries, the lack also ofthese healthcare services also decrease
the possibility of peopleaccessing safe abortion.

(17:56):
So we are having more peoplecontinue pregnancies that they don't
want because of the lack ofhealthcare services.
Think that then in middleincome countries will be better,
they will have more access to it.
But they also have like thisbackground of not having enough resources
for contraception, educationand all those conditions that could

(18:19):
decrease in unintended pregnancy.
And when you havecomprehensive sex and reproductive
education also to reduceunintended pregnancy, but at the
same time to reduce the numberof abortions that are result of lack
of economic sources or social environment.
Also because you reduce aswell sexual violence, that is another
factor for abortion.

(18:40):
When we had spoken last, youshared with me A story of 17 women
in El Salvador who wereimprisoned because of abortions.
Can you talk about the lawsthere as well as some of the laws
in other countries?

(19:00):
I think when we talk aboutLatin America it's a really like
the laws are super Diverse aswe have countries where abortion
is totally banned asNicaragua, El Salvador, Honduras
and then we have othercountries when we have like one of
the most liberal laws rightnow in abortion as Colombia, that

(19:22):
abortion is discriminalized upto 24 weeks by request and then under
the three grounds that Imentioned before like in case of
sexual violence, risk of lifeof the pregnant person and enviability
of the fetus up to the end ofthe pregnancy.
Then you also do havecountries like Argentina that also

(19:44):
decriminalized abortion up to24 weeks.
Uruguay, Cuba and Mexico thatthey have decriminalized abortion
by national way, but they areas the US so they have like a lost
by state that regulate inwhich state you can have access to
abortion and under which conditions.
But then of course you havecountries when the restrictions are

(20:07):
make difficult the life of thepeople who live there.
In the world map of countrieswhere abortiondata.org has gathered
information from, you can seecountries that are labeled with different
colors.
The red labeled countries iswhere abortion is very restricted
and green labeled countriesare the most liberal when it comes
to abortion.

(20:28):
And if you're listening andnot watching this episode on Spotify
or YouTube, you can head tothe link in Show Notes to explore
that as well.
If we click on Bolivia, welearn that abortion is allowed under
certain circumstances, such asthe risk to the life or health of
the pregnant person, rape,incest and severe fetal malformations.

(20:49):
However, there are barriersthat hinder access to legal abortions,
including social stigma, lackof information and the availability
of healthcare services.
As Leena has mentioned.
When we click on a greencountry like Nepal, we see that they
take a liberal legal stancewhile addressing abortion.

(21:09):
In 2002, Nepal legalized safeabortion and the 2015 constitution
guarantees safe parenthood andreproductive health as a fundamental
right for all individuals.
The 2018 Safe Parenthood andReproductive Health act ensures the
right to safe abortion for all.
There are countries that floatin the middle, like Brazil, where

(21:33):
there are only three legalinstances of abortion.
These include rape, imminentdanger to the pregnant person and
a severe birth defect.
One out of five Brazilianwomen have undergone at least one
abortion by the age of 40 andtheir induced abortion is still regulated
as a crime, with penalties ofone to three years of imprisonment

(21:57):
for the pregnant woman andeven one to four years of imprisonment
for the doctor or any otherperson who was involved in the abortion
procedure.
Imagine being the doctor inthis situation.
I wouldn't want to practice there.
But this keeps bringing meback to the case of the 17 women
in El Salvador.
So we have the case of ElSalvador, as you mentioned before,

(22:18):
in El Salvador there is thismovement that it was called the 17
women were in prison becausethey had miscarriages, as they are
called in English, in Spanish,we don't have a difference for miscarriage
and abortion.
Really?
Yeah.
So if you lose the baby, thenit's still called an abortion.
It's interesting because atthe end when you talk about medical

(22:42):
terms is the same procedure.
So in a country that abortionis restricted.
If you go to the doctorbecause you are having a miscarriage,
the doctor cannot determinephysically talking if you have a
miscarriage of an abortion.
And if the person is afraid togo to prison or is afraid of the

(23:02):
person, have some stigmas thatlet this doctor think that you induce
the abortion, they can policeand you can end up criminalized medically
talking a spontaneousabortion, like a miscarriage, an
aversion works the same.
Can we just take a moment toreflect on this?
In Spanish, there is no wordfor the term miscarriage.

(23:26):
Honestly, I'm kind of mindblown by this.
So those women, they were putin prison under the crime of homicides.
They were charged withhomicide, yeah.
Oh my gosh.
Because actually one of thestories that for me is super hard,
it was a woman who wasexpecting to finish like her week

(23:49):
of work so she could go to thematernal leave.
And when she finished, shestarted feeling bad.
And she mentioned that she wasfeeling bad and no one at her workplace
help her.
She was living there at oneschool, she was like a cleaning service
person or something.
And she was living at the school.
And then no one offered totake her to the hospital or anything.

(24:12):
And when she tried to go tothe hospital, already was too late.
She lost the pregnancy.
And it was an intended pregnancy.
She wanted to have thispregnancy and she ended up in prison.
So all those cases also makeus to reflect on what are the consequences
of these restrictions.
Also there is another casesuper similar to that one in Colombia

(24:33):
that happened in Salvador to awoman called Beatrice.
Beatrice was a woman who hadlike some healthcare complications
during her pregnancy.
And she asked the state of ElSalvador to let her do the abortion.
And they denied to thepossibility to do this procedure
at the beginning.
So then she was like in thiscontinued fight at the end, she was

(24:54):
able to access to theabortion, but it was already too
late.
And like her whole health wasalready impacted.
And she died some time afterfor a respiratory disease that it
was not really meant to diefor it.
So all these restrictionsreally take you to these things that
we were discussing before,when we talk about abortion, we talk

(25:16):
about healthcare topic thatmany things can happen and these
restrictions that they arejust debating a political space,
they really don't match withwhat is the health care reality.
And also these restrictionsaffect the people who can have access
to abortion, who need theabortion, like the abortion seekers,
but also persons who want toget pregnant.

(25:38):
Because if you don't haveaccess to an abortion and something
goes wrong during thepregnancy, your life can be at risk
and then also affect the lifeof the newborn.
Because as is happening now inthe US As I mentioned before, there's
a study that proved that nowin the U.S.
since the new restrictions,the number of deaths of newborns
have increased.

(25:59):
And one of the reasons thatthe doctors are giving is because
many of those pregnancies werenot mean to finish differences that
some complications and thenthey are just continue pregnant.
Like you just have to continuebeing pregnant knowing that the fetus
is not viable.
That's torture.
It's affecting also healthcare providers.

(26:20):
Because the health careproviders are in the first line seeing
how the promise that they'regoing to take care the life of their
patients and they are seeinghow their practices because of legal
reasons are just causing painand they are not able to really protect
their lives in the whole termsof life.
Like talking about dignity.

(26:40):
Yeah, like a full well beingas a full definition of health by
the World Health Organization.
That is like the completelywell being of the person, not just
being alive.
Those stories are complicated.
Also we have countries likeBrazil in Latin America that have
also high restrictions.
In Brazil there are stories ofwomen who need to travel abroad the

(27:01):
country like go to Colombia,Argentina to get access to an abortion.
The same as is happening nowin US and we are talking about someone
who had can take care of theirkids at home.
So you really need to figureit out with who you're going to leave
your kids.
People who maybe it's thefirst time that they're going to
be abroad of their country andthey have to do it for an abortion

(27:23):
because they cannot get accessto the healthcare service that they
need in their country and theyneed to go to another country to
get access to it.
And then also we need to talkabout the economical weight of that.
Not everyone has the money togo to another country to get access
to a health care procedure.
So at the end theserestrictions also are increasing

(27:43):
the inequality of access tohealthcare service, to access to
the right of health.
When you saw the chart of theincome countries and abortion decrease,
there is also another chartthat shows how the legal restrictions
do not reduce the number of abortions.
What the legal restrictionsreally do, they reduce the number

(28:03):
of safe abortions.
So then is the people who canpay for it, who can have access to
safe abortions, and then thosewho cannot pay for it will have the
abortion if they need it, butunder unsafe conditions.
And that also increase theamount of money that the government,
they're gonna pay in postabortion complications.

(28:26):
What keeps coming back to meis like, you know, it's not just
about the baby, but you'realso talking about maternal mortality,
right?
So when you speak to peoplewho are against abortion, like how
do you have a constructiveconversation with people who believe
a different thing?
It's based on like threeprinciples, I would say.

(28:49):
First, I try to base all theconversations in data.
Not for reducing the storiesof the people, just with numbers,
but to prove that we are nottalking about like some weird story
that just you saw in news, butsomething that's happening a lot
in many women.
Second, under a base of humanrights, this is a health right.

(29:13):
Because for me that makessense, but not for everyone.
This makes sense.
If I ask you make a picture ofwhat is a human right, it's difficult,
but what is really the pictureof that is, well, being life that
is worth living.
So I tried to put this interms of what is a life worth living
and then in terms of empathy.

(29:33):
Because when people get superemotional against abortion, they
have their reasons, they havethe stories that not many times are
based on evidence or manytimes are based on fears and myths.
So I think it's also embracethose fears, let them to put their
fears there, and then alsopresent your case.

(29:56):
And my case, for example, isnot convince everyone to become pro
choice if they don't want.
But my case is that everyonecan have a constructive conversation
regarding abortion.
For me, the problem is notthat a person is against abortion.
For me, the problem is thesepeople are using arguments that can

(30:17):
harm everyone who is listeningto them.
So when they call a person whoneeds an abortion a killer, when
they stigmatize women andpeople who make abortion seekers,
when you stigmatize healthcareproviders, they are really harming
someone.
So for me, they hope you canbe against an abortion using data

(30:40):
and having a debate with real arguments.
And that also take me to apoint that is I don't expect that
they change their opinion immediately.
I just expect that they justcome back to talk with me later.
And I think that's a healthyway to go about it.
If you've thought this way foryour whole life.
There's you're not going tochange your opinion overnight.
It's a process.

(31:01):
Why focus so much on the data?
Because that is really likeyour organization.
It's all about data.
When you first wanted to foundthis organization, where you're like,
I want to do the research andpost it online for everybody to see,
was that the whole goal fromthe very beginning?

(31:22):
This question has like twoparts of the answers.
I wanted to focus more on thelack of data because the lack of
data is super political,because it shows what people is not
counting, is not existing.
So we don't count safe abortions.
People think that safeabortions did not exist.
And then we have tons ofstudies on safe abortions that are

(31:43):
super important to provide advocacy.
And I was feeling okay, but wealso need studies or we need spaces
that people can go and readabout all the stories that go well.
And that's.
It was a need, like a personal need.
For me, data becomes for methis place to tell them you are not
alone.
Like, I don't know, one out ofthree unintended pregnancy end up

(32:03):
in abortion.
So it's show people that youare not alone.
It's normal to have more thanone abortion.
It happens, but people don'ttalk about it.
So for me, this become a placethat people could see that they could
survive.
Because as we don't talk aboutsafe abortion stories enough, people

(32:24):
usually think that they don'tknow anyone who have an abortion.
And they think that the reasonbecause they don't know anyone is
because people die for abortions.
And that's no, it's becauseall of us, we know people who have
abortions, but they don't feelsafe telling us.
So data for me become like athis space that we could have this
discussion.
Counting abortions is supercomplicated because of the legal

(32:44):
restrictions, because of the stigma.
In 1998 in Brazil, womendiscovered misoprostol to wait to
have abortions at home.
Safe.
And actually the World HealthOrganization recognized that as a
safe method, like mifepristoneand misoprostol.
But also is safe in terms thatyou don't face a stigma.
So you don't need to go to aplace that someone gonna say something.

(33:08):
If you live in a small town,no one gonna know that you did abortion
at home.
But that also makes moredifficult to count safe abortions.
Lena just referred to a drugcalled misoprostol.
And if you don't know whatthat is, it's a synthetic prostaglandin.
And if you don't know whatthat is.
Prostaglandins are a group ofhormone like lipids that play an
important role in regulatingbodily functions like inflammation

(33:30):
and pain.
In terms of abortion, usingmisoprostol causes cervical softening,
dilation and uterine contractions.
It's an option for managementof early pregnancy failure and incomplete
abortion.
According to plannedparenthood.org, it causes cramping
and bleeding that then emptiesyour uterus.

(33:53):
Essentially, it feels likehaving an early miscarriage or a
really, really heavy period.
So when we started project, itwas a complete challenge and we decided
abortion data is a dataproject in terms of we count official
data, we take sources from theofficial data, but we also contact
organizations that supportabortion seekers and we ask them,

(34:15):
if they are public, to sharewith us the data that they have.
So on.
This is like accounting appleswith peers, but at the same time
it's no, because our goal isnot having like the real number of
abortions, because we alreadyknow that it's super complicated.
But we want to give up people,the landscape of what's happening
for an abortion seekers, fordifferent abortion seekers, and what

(34:37):
are the options and to showthat safe abortion exists.
So that for us was like aplace of advocacy.
Also, we know that talk aboutdata is not enough, because even
if we try to have a feministapproach to data that recognize every
number as a part of a story ofsomeone, many times people feel like
data is too dehumanized.

(34:59):
So we also try to rely onstories of people because the data
itself sometimes just get tojust numbers.
And these numbers at the end,they are just another way to tell
stories.
For us, those numbers arecollective stories or many people
who just have similar experiences.
And we are just trying to showthat there are many of them.

(35:21):
Like I always say, one out ofseven is like one person who maybe
is me, who maybe is you, whomaybe is a mom, a person who has
a completely life story likeshe was a kid, she has dreams.
And that's something that wealso try to put also with the data,
like give some context.
I wanted to take a moment totell you about our partner for today's

(35:43):
episode.
Podcasthon Podcast THON is aglobal charity movement focused on
raising awareness for thecharities and the nonprofits that
we love through the voices ofpodcasters all around the world.
This week and this week only,from March 15th to the 21st, over
1600 podcasters from aroundthe world registered to dedicate

(36:07):
one episode to a cause thatthey deeply care about.
For this year's podcast on I'mfeaturing Lena's story and nonprofit
abortiondata.org and VivaFutura because I believe women's
rights and abortion are asocial justice issue.
Go to podcaston.org todiscover other podcasters featuring
charities that they love.

(36:27):
Find the link in the showNotes have you heard some stories
like in the recent past ofabortions that women have gotten
that have changed their life.
In terms of that?
I'm a former abortion doulaand once I read a letter of someone
who said, today is mygraduation day, I can be here because

(36:51):
I could take that decision.
And now I'm just getting my degree.
And for me it's so powerfulbecause for me, abortion is also
like decide to have an abortion.
It's not just because yourlife is at risk, because you are
at risk, but also because youloved yourself and you can put yourself
first and your need first.

(37:12):
And then in the future maybeyou can decide to have a kid, but
under other conditions whenyou feel like it's consent and makes
sense with your life.
That story really touched me.
But the story that touched mea lot was a woman, an old woman who
approached me telling me abouther abortion.
And she was super mad at thebeginning, like talking about abortions,

(37:35):
why this?
And then I was just liketrying to explain her and let her
to talk.
And then she said, I had anabortion when I was younger and it's
the first time that I can talkabout it.
And for me it was so strongbecause immediately she finished
the sentence, she started crying.
And when we talk aboutrestrictions, well, we talk about
all those stories that havelike a impact on physical health

(37:59):
but also have impact on mental health.
And here I'm talking aboutlegal restrictions, but also stigma
and social restrictions.
We talk about it because oneof the things that really can be
complicated regarding anabortion is the stigma that surrounds
experience.
So people feel isolated, theyfeel alone.
The thing that I said beforeregarding the numbers is also to

(38:22):
show that you are not alone.
Well, many abortion seekers,many people who had an abortion,
they feel alone after thatexperience, right?
And for me, it's so hard tothink that you need to go to a healthcare
procedure in secret whenusually we feel so vulnerable when
we need to do any kind ofhealthcare procedure.

(38:43):
I'm not just talking aboutabortion, I'm talking about any kind
of healthcare procedure.
And we want to go with someonethat we can trust.
So for me, that story wasreally shocking.
And just the fact that shekeep in secret her abortion for like
40.
Years in the US approximatelyone in four women will have an abortion

(39:03):
by age 45.
Someone you know might havehad one and they may not have had
the courage to tell their story.
Maybe that someone is you.
Lena and the team atabortiondata.org understands how
complex and nuanced andemotionally charged this topic is.
@abortiondata.org you can tellyour abortion story anonymously.

(39:27):
Everything will be processedby a form that is focused on privacy
and security and it won't askfor your name or any other sensitive
information, just the story.
If you feel inclined to share,click the link in the show notes
that states share your story.
And as we close out thisconversation, I had to ask how we

(39:48):
as listeners and learners cansupport her work.
This is what she said.
The first way to support meand support us is really always understand
ourselves as abortion communicators.
Like always when we talk aboutabortion, like get a commitment to
always that you talk about abortion.
Talk with empathy and theresponsibility that someone who is

(40:11):
listening to you maybe hadthat experience.
And that's for me is hugebecause that creates a different
environment for all of us.
A more friendly society.
We also work on volunteerbasis and donation basis so you can
go to the website and donateto our work.
You can donate monthly, youcan do one time donation and like

(40:33):
all donations are really welcome.
As you mentioned before, wetry to make like a really strong
research on that and thatrequires time, resources.
That's another way to support.
If you follow us in our socialmedia, Instagram is the main channel
that we use is at abortion data.
We also have a shop online.

(40:53):
So if you want to buy someproducts, especially if you are in
the US that is easy to chipin, that helps us a lot and you get
like a beautiful product, afeminist product.
If you want to volunteer on.
If you have like any companythat you know that can support at
work, any other organizationthat can support at work, or if you
do similar work and you wantto do a collaboration that's also

(41:17):
super welcome.
So there are thousands of waysthat we can receive support.
If you're still here andlistening, know that I truly appreciate
you and I really hope that youtake a moment to check out Lena's
work, maybe buy some of hermerch or maybe donate to fuel more
of her advocacy.
All of the resources will belinked in the show notes and if you

(41:38):
resonate with anything thatwas said in this conversation, please
comment below.
If you're watching orlistening on YouTube or Spotify,
if you're listening anywhereelse, feel free to email me@hetallobalhealthpursuit.com
this episode was researched,hosted, produced, edited, and all
of the above by me.
And a huge shout out to mycoach, Anna Xavier of the Podcast

(42:02):
Space, who continues to pushme to create a show that is meaningful,
educational and entertainingall at the same time.
Would you be willing tosupport the production of this podcast?
And if so, there are a fewways to do it.
As an independent podcaster,I'd love to give you a shout out
on the show, and all you haveto do is become a patron by donating

(42:22):
as little as $3 a month.
You can donate by clicking thesupport link in the description below.
Please follow this podcastwherever you're listening.
Write me a review on ApplePodcasts or rate me on Spotify.
I'll see you next week.
Advertise With Us

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

Crime Junkie

Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.

24/7 News: The Latest

24/7 News: The Latest

The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.

Stuff You Should Know

Stuff You Should Know

If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.

Music, radio and podcasts, all free. Listen online or download the iHeart App.

Connect

© 2025 iHeartMedia, Inc.