The Next Mile: Finding Courage in the Unknown with Burr Purnell

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In this deeply inspiring conversation, Burr Purnell shares his journey—from corporate executive to ultrarunner, devoted dad, and social-impact leader—inviting listeners to ask themselves: What leap of courage are you holding back?

1. The Courage to Pivot
2. Burr recounts how his daughter’s innocent comment—“I’ve only ever lived in this one room”—sparked a life-altering decision. He and his wife decided to resign from their stable careers, homeschool their daughters, and travel the world doing service work with nonprofits like Yoga & Sport for Refugees  .
3. Ultrarunning as a Path to Self-Discovery
4. A seasoned ultramarathoner, Burr treats extreme running as more than sport—it’s spiritual exploration. He believes races lasting 50‑100 miles force you to “live on the edge” and ask bigger questions about purpose and resilience  .
5. Vulnerability & Leadership
6. In a 2020 interview, Burr emphasized urging men—and all people—to embrace vulnerability. “There is great power in being vulnerable,” he explained, warning against toxic machismo that distances us from ourselves and others  .
7. Marrying Creativity & Social Good
8. As VidMob Gives’ Director of Social Good, Burr leverages digital video to amplify nonprofit missions—supporting causes like charity: water and Movember. They raised over $20K in 13 days for refugees in Lesvos, Greece, funding gym equipment and athletic gear for youth  .
9. Lessons from Mistakes & Staying Grounded
10. With trademark humility, he laughs about accidentally sitting in someone else’s seat on a Virgin Atlantic flight—an event that reminded him not to take life (or himself) too seriously  .

🌱 Key Takeaways

• Vulnerability is Strength: Burr urges listeners—especially men—to shed masks and show emotional authenticity.
• Messy Transformations are Worth It: Career shifts and lifestyle changes rooted in courage can lead to richer, more meaningful paths.
• Suffering With Purpose: Ultramarathons aren’t just endurance tests—they’re journeys into identity, purpose, and connection.
• Accessible Creativity: Tech tools (like VidMob) can magnify nonprofit stories and catalyze real-world change.
• Keep Your Heart Open: Small, everyday moments (like his daughter’s question) can reframe life’s trajectory.

🔗 Notable Features

• Authority Magazine Interview (2020):
• Burr candidly discusses the importance of emotional honesty in men, calling out “machismo” and encouraging support for others  .
• TEDx Berkshires Talk (2023):
• Delivers a heartfelt narrative on aligning the mind and heart to transform personal and professional life  .
• TEDx YouTube Video:
• Explores how a moment of alignment shifted his entire trajectory  .

🎧 Quotes Worth Highlighting

“There is great power in being vulnerable… hiding behind a mask… fuels anger and even hatred, igniting a ‘machismo’ in men which distances them from who they are at best.”  

“I’ve never been more alive than running a 100‑mile race… the experiences and lessons I learned… have enhanced my life in innumerable ways.”  

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Episode Transcript

SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Nicole and you're listening to Glow Wild.
Hey everyone, and welcome backto Glow Wild, the podcast where
purpose meets passion andstories spark real change.
Today's guest is someone whoseentire life and career embodied

(00:22):
the power of purpose-drivenwork.
Burr Purnell is a creativevisionary, a changemaker, and a
storytelling strategist whodoesn't just talk about impact,
he builds it into everything hetouches.
From leading global creativecampaigns to launching
philanthropic arms of major techcompanies, from supporting
refugees in green Thank you somuch.

(01:11):
And we've

SPEAKER_01 (01:39):
mostly swim upstream in our lives as it is.
We really have never been kindof normal in how we either raise
our children, live our lives,the food we eat, the places we
visit, and the connections wemake.
But as I said at the start, I'mjust a normal human being.
And like everybody else, I don'tfind myself to be special in any

(02:01):
way.
I put attention towards thingsthat I'm interested in, and I go
pretty deep into those thingswhen I commit to doing
something.
I don't do it halfway.
Sometimes maybe to a fault, butthat's just how I'm wired.

SPEAKER_00 (02:20):
I think a lot of professionals that get to your
level are wired like that.
It is almost a fault, but youalso make an impact.
So tell us how you got intobranding and what made you
interested in that fieldinitially.

SPEAKER_01 (02:36):
Well, in the beginning, I went to school at
Northeastern University to studygraphic design.
And throughout that process,this is in the early 90s, I just
learned more and more about theability of something as small as
a logo mark to make an impact onsomebody in their life and their

(02:59):
lives and their belief system.
And that intrigued me.
I thought it was really coolthat a single mark or multiple
marks, logos, brand icons, orwhatever it might be, are really
powerful in that they distilldown the company's values and

(03:19):
what they stand for throughdesign.
Absolutely.
Which is just what can be morepowerful than that.
It's like the simplest elementof a brand should be conveyed
through their mark.
So that intrigued me early on.
And in the early 90s, I thinkI'm right in saying this, like

(03:40):
Adobe started and, or maybe lateeighties, but I remember working
in illustrator, like 1.0 andPhotoshop 1.0 at school in our
lab.
And our lab was, you know, inRyder hall and Northeastern
university.
It was, it was pretty cool.
And I, I was in there, you hadto sign up for the computers.
It wasn't like you're bringingyour computer home and working
on it at all.
You signed up for these giantCRTs you're working on.

(04:03):
And, uh, And it intrigued me.
My mother was also a graphicdesigner at a place called
Horticulture Magazine.
And so the work she was doingwas much different than what I
was doing, although in theorythey were the same, but she was
doing paste-up work and juststarting to use the computer in
a way that was going to be fordesktop publishing.

(04:25):
Her being in the space wasintriguing for me and to watch
what she was doing.
But I really jumped in with bothfeet to graphic design, got my
degree in graphic design.
Branding and marketing kind offell into line after that, where
I would freelance or work atagencies that were really
steeped in both thosedisciplines.

SPEAKER_00 (04:45):
Great.
And how did you pivot intobringing your knowledge and
branding to the projects you donow, especially your
philanthropic endeavors?

SPEAKER_01 (04:58):
Yeah.
You know, I see life as thiscontinuous journey and it's
always interesting to take kindof one career path and pivot to
another.
And

SPEAKER_02 (05:06):
I

SPEAKER_01 (05:08):
mean, we'll talk about this a little later, but
we did this big trip as a familyand before the trip, I was 100%
working in advertising.
After the trip, I startedworking and helping run a
nonprofit in New York City.
That's where the philanthropicwork came in.
I worked with hundreds ofnonprofits around the world.
What I was able to do was tohelp these nonprofits distill

(05:32):
the essence of their brand intoshort form content.
I think a lot of times,nonprofits in general have so
many things to say, they try tosay them all by saying them all,
the message is lost.

SPEAKER_00 (05:44):
I hear that.

SPEAKER_01 (05:45):
And so what I'd like to say to that is that in what I
learned through the years,there's something called an SMI.
And for us in advertising,people in marketing probably
know what it is.
It's the single main idea.
And what really is the singlemain idea that you want to
convey?
Not the two or three, Right.
Not the seven.

SPEAKER_00 (06:04):
Well, this is the first time I'm hearing of the
SMI and I,

SPEAKER_01 (06:07):
yeah,

SPEAKER_00 (06:07):
it is so important in life and especially for a
nonprofit to distill everythingdown to one idea.
Like you started this for amission.
Let's focus on that.
That's great.

SPEAKER_01 (06:20):
Well, a lot of people forget that.
And then again, as I said, they,they will then try to say three
or four things and they'll allbe lost as well.
So saying the one thing I wantis to get the, 26 people at this
fundraising lunch on Saturdaymorning.
Right.
That's my idea.
That's the one thing I want.
Because how are you going to dothat, right?
Yeah.
What are the steps to get there?

(06:40):
Right.
And not that you want those 26people and this and that and
that and that.
I mean, this and that message,you lose it entirely.
But if you hear 26 peopleSaturday morning to go to this
luncheon or pick up trash on abeach in Southeast Asia or to
who knows what, raise$100 each,whatever it might be, that one
message needs to

SPEAKER_00 (07:00):
be conveyed.
So let's go back to your tripthat you took with your family.
I remember you preparing for it,getting all the clothing needed,
all the supplies.
Was it that trip that reallybrought you into this different
life mission?
Or had you always had this pulltowards the nonprofit sector?

SPEAKER_01 (07:19):
So I've always thought that there was something
more than what I was doing.
And I should be doing somethingmore than I'm doing
professionally.
I didn't really know what itwas.
And in 2017, I At the end ofthat year, I picked up my
daughter, Ellie, at a soccerpractice and brought her home.
We got home, walked in ourmodest house in Marin County

(07:43):
when we were living inCalifornia, and she turned and
looked at me and said, Dad,we're in her room.
She goes, Dad, I've only everlived in this one room.
And my response to that was...
oh shit, I'm doing somethingwrong.
I'm not giving this kid, mychild, the opportunity to have a
bigger life, to experience more.

SPEAKER_00 (08:02):
Interesting because I find so many children of
divorce like me have been upsetthat I didn't get that one
single home.
So that is really interesting tosee that.

SPEAKER_01 (08:13):
Yeah, that's a good point.
I, I've never thought of it thatway.
My wife and I are married, butI, my feeling was that I had had
two seminal moments in my life,um, that, I feel, shaped me, who
I have become.
One of them was circumnavigatingthe North Atlantic Ocean.
The other was growing up on afarm backwoods in Maine in the

(08:35):
70s with no electricity orrunning water.
Wow.
And those two things, I think,have taught me to be
self-reliant and I felt at thepoint at this point in 2017 that
my kids weren't on an evencloser trajectory like that and
I wanted them to have somethingthat they would always remember

(08:55):
that would be seminal to theirlife that would help shape them
and it was then that we thoughtwhen I said to Jane I told her
this happened between Ellie andI and I said I think we need to
do something big we need to dosomething different and I had
felt a feeling in my stomachthat work wasn't as fulfilling
as I wanted it to be.

(09:15):
And she nodded and she said,okay, well, maybe we can go to
Greece for a couple weeks anddecompress.
And I said, no, that's not it.
It's something bigger than that.
And she said, well, what about amonth?
And I'm like, no, I don't thinkit's bigger than that.
I think it's

SPEAKER_02 (09:29):
a

SPEAKER_01 (09:30):
really sizable change in our life.
Maybe I need to quit my job anddo something different.
And maybe we need to do a...
Big family trip.

SPEAKER_00 (09:41):
And Ellie was how old at this point?

SPEAKER_01 (09:43):
Ellie's 14.
Gwen's 11.
Okay.
Just maybe even just 11.
And so within six weeks, Nicole,I mustered up the courage to
quit my job.

SPEAKER_02 (09:58):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (09:58):
January 4th, I told my then boss, Matt Query, I had
to move on, do something else.
It wasn't where I was working.
I loved where I was working, butit was something inside of me
that needed to change.
And how long had you been thereat that point?
Not that long, maybe three yearsor

SPEAKER_00 (10:12):
something like that.
But still, it's a big deal.
Yeah, it was a

SPEAKER_01 (10:15):
big deal.
Jane...
quit her job as well.
She was working on creatingdocumentaries with a good friend
of hers.
Um, we rented out our house fortwo years, pulled our kids out
of school and went on a 282 dayservice trip around the world.

SPEAKER_02 (10:31):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (10:31):
And it was what we needed to do to shake up our
lives, um, and to give our kidsa different perspective on the
world.
It's just about

SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
to say you took the word out of my mouth.
Yeah.
Perspective.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (10:44):
And lead and lead a life with purpose.

SPEAKER_00 (10:46):
Um,

SPEAKER_01 (10:46):
and that brought us to a place and an experience
multiple places and multipleexperiences that gave us
perspective on how and who weare right and how we show up and
I think traveling is the greatequalizer because when you get

(11:08):
out there and see and meet otherpeople and other cultures you
have a different appreciationfor them

SPEAKER_00 (11:14):
absolutely and How is it for the girls going into
this at 11 and 14, seeing thisside of the world, something
they're not accustomed to, butnow they're very, you know,
involved with everything thatyou do and passionate.
I see it in them.
It's amazing.
What was their initial reaction?

SPEAKER_01 (11:37):
Yeah, we're not going.

SPEAKER_00 (11:39):
Really?

SPEAKER_01 (11:40):
Yeah.
Initially they said, Yeah, we'renot going.
We're going to stay with ourfriends.

SPEAKER_00 (11:45):
Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 (11:46):
And we're going to stay with Mirabelle and Abby,
which was Gwenny's best friendand Ellie's best friend, and
their parents.
And so Jane and I kind of said,okay, all right, go ask their
parents and see if it's okay.
Right, right.
Yeah, that's going to work.
A year-long sleepover.
And they quickly realized.

(12:07):
And we said, listen, we're yourparents, and we're going to do
this.
this as a family.
This is the right time to do it.
And we know it's going to behard.
There's no question about it.
There's going to be things thatwe don't even know that we're
going to have to deal with thatare going to be hard.
That's what life is about.

(12:28):
It's not about always living ordoing the easy things.
And I think people that livethat way don't get as much out
of life perhaps as they could.

SPEAKER_00 (12:42):
I want to dive deeper into that because it is
something I've noticed is youcan take the easy path, be
comfortable, but you're alwaysyearning for more.
And I find probably most peopleare in that space right now.
What would be your advice forsomeone in that space to break
the mold, to be like, I am, weall have a talent or a purpose

(13:03):
that we can fulfill.

SPEAKER_01 (13:04):
So I, I think it comes down to the individual's
willingness to be courageous, tobe courageous and to live on the
edge.
I believe, and my kids believe,actually my daughter's 20s, The
title of her college essay is MyEducation, E-D-G.

(13:25):
Amazing.
Education, E-D-G.
Very,

SPEAKER_00 (13:27):
very smart.

SPEAKER_01 (13:29):
And they've both certainly adopted that.
I'll talk about this a littlemore, but when you live back
from the edge, life is easy.
And things, it's not like it'scomfortable, but it's easier
when you're not challengingyourself, when you're doing the
normal routine, daily shoppinghere, shopping there, meeting
your friends here, not meetingnew people.

(13:50):
People, not creating newexperiences in a way that's
going to shape who youpotentially can be or your best
self.
This is when you get stuck in arut.
Right.
And you don't develop new andexciting parts of yourself that
you don't even know exist.

SPEAKER_02 (14:08):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (14:08):
But if and when you're willing to or one is
willing to trust, have thecourage to trust that you step
over that edge.
That you'll be caught.
That you'll be okay.

SPEAKER_02 (14:18):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (14:19):
That things will turn out just in a magical way.
I mean, really, I truly believeit's like where magic happens is
when you jump off the edge.

SPEAKER_00 (14:26):
I agree.
I compare this kind of lifeshift to going to college for
the first time.
You're scared.
You don't know anyone there.
Yeah.
But it is the most engaging,unique perspective that you have
at that age.
And...
After college, we don't havemany opportunities like that

(14:47):
ever again, unless you createthem.
And I love the way you put that.
And I'm thinking he has twodaughters in college and Gwenny
is just going to be, it's goingto be great, but she's already
had these experiences that mostkids have not.
And I love that.
So I do want to get into, beforewe talk about family, because I
have a lot of questions aboutparenting.

(15:09):
I want to discuss with you howyou started ultra running and
what was the purpose behind thatand what drove you

SPEAKER_01 (15:17):
well one of your questions you sent to me think
about which I have thought aboutis the paradox between high
performance and presence andit's a good question and I
appreciate the question and inmy head I didn't really have an
answer to it when I firststarted thinking and then it
came to me that the performancepart is is is the exhale of a

(15:41):
breath

SPEAKER_02 (15:42):
okay

SPEAKER_01 (15:42):
and the presence part is my inhale and they, you
can't have one without theother.
It's my life exists.
They coexist.
And with the exhale is where Ipush myself, um, to extremes, or
at least my own extremes aredifferent than other people's
extremes, um, to, to be able tofigure out how to perform at a

(16:04):
really high level.
I really like this analogy.
The goal is where I want to getto.
Right.
Yeah.
Um, and then, The inhale iswhere I'm introspective, where I
listen.
Listen to myself.
Listen to my breath.
Listen to others.
Right.
Because you can take this tothink about it for, you know,

(16:25):
the exhale could be how I amleading a group of people at a
nonprofit or it's some coachingthing I'm doing with my kids
team or whatever it might be.
And then the exhale.
Sorry.
The inhale is is how I'mconnecting with people or
listening to people or slowingdown my own breath to to
observe.
And so I know I didn't.

(16:48):
know or think about that when Istarted my ultra career.
And my ultra career reallystarted as an accident.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_00 (16:58):
how did you accidentally start running
hundreds of

SPEAKER_01 (17:01):
miles?
I've kind of been a athlete mywhole life.
I wouldn't ever say I was arunner.
As I was a young kid, I playedhockey, soccer, and baseball.
Running wasn't something that Iwas necessarily drawn to,
although you run a lot insoccer, not so much in baseball.
I started doing triathlon inCalifornia and enjoyed it,
although I didn't swim well.

(17:22):
I ran okay, and I biked prettywell.
Then one of my friends that Imade early on in California
signed up for this race calledthe Quadruple Dipsy.
And the single dipsey is one ofthe oldest running races, I
believe, in the country,actually.

SPEAKER_00 (17:37):
Oh, interesting.
I'll have to look these up.
But the quadruple dipsey soundsterrible.
It is terrible.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (17:43):
But it goes from Mill Valley, California to
Stinson Beach.
The

SPEAKER_00 (17:46):
single dipsey.
Oh, my gosh.
So the quadruple

SPEAKER_01 (17:49):
dipsey over basically the side of Mount Tam.

SPEAKER_00 (17:51):
Yep.

SPEAKER_01 (17:52):
And the quadruple is that four times.
and

SPEAKER_00 (17:56):
uh so you're just back and forth back and forth
back and forth so mounttamalpais if you're not familiar
look it up it's a pretty bigmountain in mill valley and wow

SPEAKER_01 (18:06):
yeah

SPEAKER_00 (18:06):
four times

SPEAKER_01 (18:07):
totally wow and so my friend told me about it.
I'd never even been on the Dipsytrail before.
And he had said, Oh, she signedup.
I just signed up for it.
And I was looking for achallenge and thought, sure,
I'll sign up for this and seewhat happens.
Um, and I got on the wait listand I was maybe number 17 or 18
and, um, I'm driving to Tahoeand I got on the wait list and

(18:29):
I'm thinking I'll never get inthis race.
That's just too many people infront in front of me.

SPEAKER_02 (18:34):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (18:34):
And, um, the starts up in September, the race is,
the weekend after Thanksgivingor Thanksgiving after that
Thursday.
And, uh, so it's a few monthsaway and I figured I'd get on
that trail and do some, do someclimbing.
And, uh, and I did, when Ireturned from Tahoe, I went on
that trail and ran it andthought, wow, this is really,
really hard.

(18:55):
This is not going to be an easyrace.
And we, um, the race arrivesand, uh, My buddy who tempted me
or suggested I do this wassupposed to be there to toe the
line as well, and he was ano-show.
He's like, oh, yeah, right.
I can't do that race because Igot too busy with work and
didn't, you know, I was like.

SPEAKER_00 (19:14):
Oh, thanks for reaching out, letting me know.

SPEAKER_01 (19:16):
Yeah, Brian, you've got to be kidding me.
You can't do the race.
So he didn't do it.
I did it.
There's about 300 or so people,maybe 285 or 315.
And I came in 15th.
of all these runners, which arelike

SPEAKER_00 (19:28):
this insane race.
You really hadn't been trainingfor this.
I mean, you'd hit the hill, butyou're not months into training.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 (19:36):
this isn't like a world-class group of guys
running it.
They're mostly locals, but therehave been some very, very fast
runners that have done it.
So I do a respectable time onthe course, and it's like a 50K
or something.
Maybe it's 28 miles or somethinglike that.
And so I think that thesuccess...
I mean, 15th is pretty good.
It

SPEAKER_00 (19:54):
is really great.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (19:56):
I think my success there was a bit of an eye opener
for me to think, well, maybeI've got a little more to learn
here from myself because I wasreally suffering from On that
route, it was a five hours and15 minute run or something like
that through almost 10,000 feetof vertical.
I think it's 9,000 or somewherein that range.
So I stumbled it in that way.

(20:17):
Somebody, you know, attemptingme to do the run and then doing
it and being stood up at thestart line.

SPEAKER_00 (20:23):
So how does it feel to, you know, you go through
that suffering.
I understand it.
I used to be a runner and aracer.
You're suffering through it.
But there's something at the endwhere you feel great.
It's not just the endorphins,but it's the sense of
accomplishment.
How did you feel at the end ofthat?

SPEAKER_01 (20:41):
Yeah, I felt proud.
That's great.
Yeah.
Proud of my accomplishmentthere.
Proud of myself.
Proud also that, and this wasreally new to me, but I had done
that Almost entirely alone.
Exactly.
My training and I didn't knowanybody else in the race.
And I thought to myself, Iremember thinking, well, if I do

(21:02):
this pretty decent run just bymyself, I wonder what I could do
with other people.

SPEAKER_02 (21:06):
Right.

SPEAKER_01 (21:06):
You know, and getting other people in the mix
and training with other peopleand building community.
So that was what was intriguingfor me.
So the result of having donewell felt good.
But my interest was piquedbecause I saw all these other
people in the race that kneweach other and had done it like
10 times or 15 times, the quaddipsy.
And I thought, that's actuallywhat I want.

(21:27):
I want to be part of somethingthat's about the community as at
the core of it.
I love that.
And it's not individual running,runner training to do one thing
that's masochistic.
And so that's where I met all myrunning buddies.
That's great.

SPEAKER_00 (21:41):
And have you done that race again?

SPEAKER_01 (21:43):
I've done it.
I think I've done it eighttimes.
maybe 10 times.
That's amazing.
I did it every year.
Yeah, you lived right there.
I haven't done it since 2018 orsomewhere like that, but I did
it many, many, many times.
That's great.
I have some friends that havedone it almost 25 or 30 times.
Wow.
It's the race.

SPEAKER_00 (22:01):
And before I get into my next question, what
other ultra races have you donethat you have been proud of?
I'm sure you're proud of everysingle one you complete, even if
it's not what you were lookingfor time-wise.

SPEAKER_01 (22:13):
Yeah.
So, For me, I've done a lot ofultras, but for many others,
it's like just a drop in thehat.
But I think I've enteredsomewhere in the area of 20 to
30, maybe 35 ultra races.
An ultra is anything over 26.2,right?
I've done way too cool.
All of these mostly out inCalifornia, way too cool.

(22:34):
Sonoma 50.
50 miler, Tahoe 50 miler.
I've done the Quad Dipsies Ijust talked about, Headlands 50.
I've paced at Western States.
I've never run Western States,but I've paced there many times.
Oh, that's great.
I did the San Diego 100 in SanDiego.

SPEAKER_00 (22:52):
I have heard David Goggins did that as his first
race just to get into anotherrace.
That is no joke.
Is that

SPEAKER_01 (22:59):
no joke?
It was a tough

SPEAKER_00 (23:00):
one.

SPEAKER_01 (23:00):
It was only 108 degrees with the heat index that
day.
Oh, you know.
It was a slog.
Just a slog.

SPEAKER_00 (23:05):
lovely lovely day so which one was the hardest for
you mentally because I know thephysical part tends to be we
think it's our body breakingdown but it's really our mind
breaking down yeah do you wasthere a moment where or in one
of these races that you reallystood out to you where you were
like, how do I get my mentalityback?

SPEAKER_01 (23:28):
Yeah.
Um, yes, there's, there aremultiple, um, to, to come to
mind at headlands 50.
It was one of my first that Idid and begin by saying that I'm
terrified.
I mean, terrified of snakes.
And I

SPEAKER_00 (23:42):
think the whole Norton family is.

SPEAKER_01 (23:46):
And, um, I remember being so fatigued and so out of
it that I wanted to, to find asnake, like to find a
rattlesnake to bite me so that Icould finish the race.
I could be done with the race.
I got bit by a snake.
I'm out.

SPEAKER_00 (23:59):
I know that feeling.
Looking

SPEAKER_01 (24:02):
for excuses.
I literally began looking for onthe trail rattlesnakes.
I was going to bend down and letit bite me and go from there.
I can remember I was climbingout of Tennessee Valley in Marin
County and I just had thismoment of despair and darkness
and just fatigue.
And I was, I don't know, 38miles.

(24:25):
And within a few minutes I wasout of it and on top of the
mountain again.
And

SPEAKER_00 (24:31):
what do you think brought you out of it?

SPEAKER_01 (24:33):
Um, I don't, I don't know physiology, physiology very
well or why the mind goes there.
I just have experienced it manytimes, but there's just this,
um, highs and lows in racing andin running that are just super
telling about where you arementally.
It might be that I got to thetop of the hill I didn't think I

(24:55):
could get to when I was feelinglike my mind was going to quit.
And then when you just keep ongoing and keep putting one foot
past the next, you do get to thetop and you just don't quit on
yourself.
You don't ever quit.
And so that's the mentality thatI think you need to have in life
and in ultra racing.

SPEAKER_00 (25:17):
I agree.
So I will tell you as a highschool athlete, it was my
weakest state of mentality.
If I messed up a little bit in aski race or, you know, wasn't
going fast enough in my runningraces, I gave up.
You could see it in my bodylanguage.
So in the New York CityMarathon, 15 miles in, I'm
staying with the nine minutepacers and I am happy as a clam.

(25:40):
I am feeling great.
And then I get tripped.
My mind went to, oh my God, theydid that on purpose.
Obviously not.
I mean, there's so many racers,but I had to literally like snap
my fingers, snap myself out ofit because I was about to start
crying and just, give up I wasgoing to fake an injury just
like you were talking about andgo to the med tent and not

(26:01):
finish and I was like no this isan important thing to you you're
going to get this done But it ishard to snap out of that.
I really wanted to just go tothe med tent, cry, and quit, and
wallow in my own, I don't know.
Today,

SPEAKER_01 (26:16):
you wouldn't be that happy

SPEAKER_00 (26:17):
with yourself, would you?
No.
It was the most amazingexperience ever.
I didn't get my nine-minute milepaced the entire way like my
goal, but I finished, and that'swhat's important.
How do you see ultra running asa metaphor for the
purpose-driven work that you do?

SPEAKER_01 (26:32):
Yeah.
So I see the running...
as slow and steady.
I do not run fast.
I just don't, I'm not built thatway.
There might be some sectionsthat I scoot along quicker than
other people, but in general, Idon't run fast.
And I really like the old adage,I think it's an African proverb,

(26:53):
that if you want to go fast, goalone.
If you want to go far, go withothers.
It's basically the paraphrase ofit.
And so in my work that I do, Iwant to go lift others.
I want to lift people.
I want to practice kindness.
I want to give people what theydeserve.
I want to be a good listener.

(27:14):
And so I think what I wastalking about before, in a few
minutes ago about, um, you know,performance and presence.
This is really the presence partof, of that.
And the nonprofit work that I'vebeen fortunate enough to do is
really, truly about listening topeople's problems, um, and
helping them come up withsolutions.

SPEAKER_00 (27:36):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (27:37):
And, um, when you're out ultra running, um, for, um,
I don't know, 10 hours or 16hours or 32 hours or whatever it
is.

SPEAKER_02 (27:48):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (27:49):
There's no joke.
I mean, you're listening to alot of problems and you're
feeling and experiencing a lotof problems yourself.
Yeah.
And so there's a correlationthere, right?
How am I going to help my friendon the trail with me?
I'm feeling okay, but he's notor she's not.
And I'm not going to put my raceabove theirs because we're both

(28:11):
out here together.
Yeah.
And to me, that's, again, thecommunity building part of it
and why I'm drawn to ultrarunning is that it's a place
where people lift each other up.

SPEAKER_00 (28:22):
I love that.

SPEAKER_01 (28:23):
And are there to support each other.
So working in the nonprofitspace is where we are as humans
to lift each other up and tomake each other's lives better
in a way and leading withkindness and generosity and
purpose.
Right.

SPEAKER_00 (28:39):
So I spoke about in your intro the nonprofits that
you are working with.
And did you actually found anonprofit when you were on that
big trip with your family?

UNKNOWN (28:48):
Yes.

SPEAKER_01 (28:48):
Yeah, no, not really.
The first place we went inGreece on the island was the
running coach for a small orgcalled Yoga and Sport with
Refugees.

SPEAKER_00 (28:59):
That's the one I'm thinking

SPEAKER_01 (29:01):
of.
Yeah, and so I didn't found thatat all.
A woman named Estelle Jeanfounded that, and she's still
very, very much a part of it.
I'm one of the original boardmembers or advisory board
members for the nonprofit stillto this day.
But we...
started working with them,helping with refugees that had
come, like literally walked fromAfghanistan, Iraq, Iran, across

(29:25):
Turkey, to then get on a smallinflatable raft to get
themselves to Greece.
And this was the beginning ofour work with non-profits, and
personally mine withnon-profits.
Everything else before that inmy career had been for
for-profit organizations.
And It's also what kind of gaveus the wake up call and my

(29:47):
children included about howpeople are treated and how
fortunate we have been in ourlives to be in a position where
we're in compared to many, manyother millions, billions of
other people.

SPEAKER_00 (30:01):
Exactly.
You just can't

SPEAKER_01 (30:02):
experience it unless you experience it.
You don't know.
Like you just don't.
don't know to a level of whichpeople suffer when you're, you
know, out seeing them walkingfor five miles to go get a great
food or waiting for five hoursto get breakfast or lunch or
dinner.

SPEAKER_00 (30:19):
That's what they do.
That's their existence.
I have traveled and have seensome of that and it is
eye-opening.
I mean, I believe my firstinternational travel was at 21
and to Central America and it'seye opening.
My travel journals are things Iwould never write now because I
haven't been constantly goinginto that.

(30:40):
I wanna serve others, I alwayshave, but I think that travel
and seeing the world from adifferent perspective is so
important.
It

SPEAKER_01 (30:49):
will be by far, in my opinion, the biggest gift
you'll be able to give to

SPEAKER_02 (30:56):
your children

SPEAKER_01 (30:56):
is to leave our country, and go experience other
countries at a deep, deep level.
There's just, I mean, of course,there are places here which
people don't have the privilege,but in general, living in this
country is a privilege.
But go...
let them experience othercultures.

SPEAKER_00 (31:16):
And it's a widely taken for granted privilege that
we don't even know.
And so I think it's so importantthat you did that with your
daughters.
I do want to get into yourparenting and your legacy.
I am just shocked and proud ofthe way your two daughters have
turned out.
They are wise beyond theiryears.

(31:36):
And I heard Gwenny talking outon the porch today and her
education, her education,eloquent way of speaking.
I mean, she just knows so muchand it's incredible.
And it is kudos to you.
I know.
Well, I've got a

SPEAKER_02 (31:53):
partner.

SPEAKER_00 (31:53):
Yes, kudos to you and your wife, Jane, of course.
So you've raised two fiercelyindependent daughters who are
now carrying forward yourmission of social and
environmental impact.
What values or practices do youthink had the biggest influence
to make them latch on to yourinterests in this?

(32:14):
Well,

SPEAKER_01 (32:14):
what's interesting, I thank you, by the way, for
saying that.
I think...
Parenting, really?
Seriously, it's my mostimportant job.
It is, yeah.
Without question.
And it's yours as well.
I assume you think that.
And I approach parenting becauseit's so hard.

SPEAKER_00 (32:37):
It is the hardest job in the world.
Yeah.
And you're always wondering ifyou're messing up.

SPEAKER_01 (32:41):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (32:41):
Every little mistake or

SPEAKER_01 (32:44):
decision.
We could go

SPEAKER_00 (32:45):
deep on all the mess ups I've done.
I've done a

SPEAKER_01 (32:47):
billion

SPEAKER_00 (32:48):
mess ups.
We all have.
We are doing the best with thetools we were given.
That's

SPEAKER_01 (32:51):
what

SPEAKER_00 (32:52):
I always say.

SPEAKER_01 (32:53):
So I try to think or I hope that my superpower in
parenting is one simple thingand that is consistency.
The more consistent I am in mymessage and how I deliver that
message, I think the moreeffective I am.

(33:16):
Absolutely.
I don't know.
I think, yeah, I'm, I'll bereally curious to know if you
talk to my girls and, you know,in this context with, they would
say, I think that they would saythat that's, pretty consistent
and I have this thing so that Isay what I mean and I mean what
I say.
And it's true.
And it's not that I don't everadmit that I was wrong about

(33:38):
something or that I'm unwillingto negotiate or see someone
else's perspective.
But I try to be just asconsistent in delivering my
message based on my values.
And my values are based on basickindness.
for one another.
I

SPEAKER_00 (33:57):
was going to ask, so what, how would you describe
your core values in a sentence?

SPEAKER_01 (34:03):
Yeah.
In a sentence, I never thoughtabout it in a sentence, but just
being kind is the To yourselfand to others.
Golden rule.
Yeah.
Just be kind to yourself.
Be kind to yourself and toothers.
And it's, you know, I think whatmy girls have embodied in many

(34:24):
ways.
And, you know, they've hadplenty of arguments and fights
with each other.
But when I observe them withpeople like you or my aunts and
their great aunts or friends orparents of friends, I'm almost
in tears about how they holdthemselves and the quality of
character that they aredelivering.

(34:47):
And then sincerity about thequestions they're asking and the
interest they have in theseconversations.
And maybe you heard some of thattoday.
I

SPEAKER_00 (34:53):
did, and I was in awe.

SPEAKER_01 (34:56):
Just

SPEAKER_00 (34:56):
very proud for you.
Very excited to hopefully...
teach my daughters the same

SPEAKER_01 (35:05):
lesson.
I'm sure you and Corey will.
But it really does start therewith consistency and kindness.
And then the other mostimportant thing that I believe
is we've got two ears and onemouth.
And we should use them in thatproportion.
Listening, I think, is a form ofkindness.
Because people often need to beheard.

(35:26):
And I think that's our job in away is to listen to those people
that need to be heard.
They could be struggling withbeing insecure or having family
issues or marital issues orwhatever it might be.
And just showing up andlistening, I think, are two
qualities that the girls havebecause I'm hoping that Jane and

(35:52):
I have modeled that in a waythat has been extremely
effective.
And believe me, by the way,these kids are not turning out
the way they are because of Justme.
I mean, Jane is a super human.

SPEAKER_00 (36:05):
Oh, I am, you know, praising both of you.
It's not just you.
You just happen to be heretoday.
But are there any challengingmoments or maybe one challenging
moment you've had raising thegirls that you said, oh, my God,
I don't know if I can do this.
What am I going to do?
I don't have an answer for this.

(36:26):
I don't.

SPEAKER_01 (36:27):
Yeah.
Well, middle school was hard.
I hear.
Yeah.
Welcome to that one.
Middle school was hard and Ijust, I didn't have my stride
then.
I was being consistent as I saidI am, but I wasn't really
present entirely to, I think myown I don't know, demons.

(36:52):
I don't really know.
I struggled through that.
So there's not like oneparticular thing I remember
happening.
I'm sure the kids snuck out andthis and that.
Oh, sure.
I'm not like a superdisciplinarian guy.
I'm just saying, well, here'swhat happened.
I think this is probably theconsequence for what we've got
to do for sneaking out lastnight.
But I'm also not a hypocrite.

(37:12):
I snuck out.

SPEAKER_00 (37:14):
Oh, absolutely.
We have to remember that.
It is true.
I know.

SPEAKER_01 (37:19):
I don't really know if there was...
One thing, Nicole, nothing'slike sticking in my head right
now.
Yeah.
But just that age range for mychildren, for my relationship
with them was the hardest time.
I love where they are right now.
Oh, they're great.
Young, strong, independent youngwomen.

SPEAKER_00 (37:37):
Right.
And they were great then.
I think that, you know, even attwo years old, they're searching
for their independence.
So they act out then.

SPEAKER_02 (37:45):
Then

SPEAKER_00 (37:45):
they go through it again at six where I feel like I
have a teenager.

SPEAKER_02 (37:49):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (37:50):
finding independence, defiance.
And so I know middle school isjust so hard because you're
going through hormonal changes

SPEAKER_01 (37:59):
and

SPEAKER_00 (38:00):
bullying and all these things.
Even if you have a great groupof friends, it's going to
happen.
And I foresee that being areally hard time for us.
So in a world obsessed withoutcomes, how did you give your
girls The value of process andpassion and meaning over
performance, perfection ortitles.

SPEAKER_01 (38:21):
I think that came through my running, honestly.
See, that's huge.
I think that their observationof dad performing or being out
there and recognizing that I'mchoosing to struggle.
Mm-hmm.
Choosing to force myself, youknow, running all through the
night in the darkness withnobody around me and choosing to

(38:42):
be uncomfortable training, youknow, six days a week, 50, 60,
80 miles.
I think that's this observedthat.
Right.
And I think that they imbuedthat.
And, you know, what's alsointeresting, I didn't mention
this before, but Ellie hasgravitated towards my career.

SPEAKER_00 (39:01):
Wow.
I didn't know that.
Marketing and

SPEAKER_01 (39:03):
advertising.
She's studying at BU.
She's getting an advertisingdegree.
And Gwenny has gravitatedtowards my passion of running.
Wow.
She runs track and she runscross country.
And my ultimate goal is to runan ultra marathon with her.
So both kids have observed theirdad.

(39:25):
I haven't pushed either of themat all.
I've just been...
who I am.
Um, and I'm not going to pushanything on them.
And if Ellie ends up having asuccessful advertising career,
that's awesome.
If she ends up pivoting andbecoming a, I don't know, a
director of human resourcesthat, uh, you know, some startup
or something great.

(39:46):
If Gwennie, Takes to swimming.
Great.

SPEAKER_02 (39:48):
Great.

SPEAKER_01 (39:49):
But I've just lived my life with the purpose and the
values I have and the girls haveobserved them and taken to them.

SPEAKER_00 (39:56):
That is so wonderful because I had read a book and it
was discussing working women,working mothers, especially that
we're not doing them adisservice by working.

SPEAKER_02 (40:08):
Hmm.

SPEAKER_00 (40:09):
We are demonstrating what it is to be a strong
person, although we hold on tothat guilt of not being around
as much as we could.
But I do believe it gives themindependence, and they see it.
You're leading by example.
I'm running, doing crazy thingsto my body to stay in shape, and

(40:30):
I want them to see it.
Actually, I had a little lessonthe other morning.
I wake up at 5.15, I do myworkout at 5.30, and the girls
will wake up.
Mom, when are you going to bedone?
We need you.
And so I had them comedownstairs where I was.
I said, this is a life lessongirls.

(40:51):
You start and you finish.
You don't stop.
I'm not going to stop fiveminutes early for you.
I'm going to get it done.
And they're like, okay.
So, I mean, there are teachinglessons everywhere, even if it's
just something silly like that,but

SPEAKER_01 (41:04):
yeah, that's really good.

SPEAKER_00 (41:05):
I really don't want to keep you too long.
Um, I just want to know what hasbeen the most humbling lesson
for you, either through theultras or through your
advertising career, thenonprofit mission.
Is there one or multiple

SPEAKER_01 (41:24):
things that stick out?
We haven't touched on this, andwe could probably do a whole
session on this, but I think mykids' success and where they've
gotten...
to so far in their short livesis quite humbling in itself just
for me to observe them.
But what I'll say is thatparenting is the most important

(41:48):
thing that's happening in mylife and having these children,
but they are also my teachers.
Like they are my ultimateteachers because they are in
essence a reflection of who weare.
And I tell them, both this andat their birthdays.
I'll stand up and say somethingand remind them that they are my

(42:11):
teachers.
And I look up to them for thatreason.
And what they've taught me isnot always easy.
I am inherently a perfectionist,which is an incredible burden,
actually.
I mean, it comes with a lot ofgreat attributes, but it's also
quite burdensome.

SPEAKER_00 (42:30):
It

SPEAKER_01 (42:30):
is.
Are you a perfectionist?
Do you know?

SPEAKER_00 (42:33):
I am.
I have worked very hard to stepout of that or this podcast
would never have come to be.
Don't have a website fully setup yet.
But I was like, this has been adream of mine since 2012.
I have to take the leap or itwill never happen.

SPEAKER_01 (42:50):
And

SPEAKER_00 (42:50):
it cannot be perfect.

SPEAKER_01 (42:52):
Well, I struggle with that now.
all the time and I read books onit and I read or listen to
podcasts about it and I I havetherapy about it with my life
coach and you know I sometimeswish that I would perform at a

(43:14):
different level so that my kidswould see me doing something
differently or I had a a bettercareer, or I had a better house,
or I had a better car, orwhatever it might be.
I

SPEAKER_00 (43:24):
understand that.
None of that matters.
None of it matters.

SPEAKER_01 (43:27):
Yeah.
And so my kids are helping merecognize that.
That is great.
And that's just part of beinghuman.

SPEAKER_00 (43:36):
I do get that drive to want the material things by
making life better.
feel perfect, especially whenyou have children.
You want them to experience thebest that you have to offer.
But what I have found, I want towrite a book called You're Not a
Shitty Mom.
And it came out of the idea thatI asked the girls, what makes

(43:59):
you feel loved by me?
Parker said, rubbing my back.
Another kid said, my mom takesme shopping and buys me a
Squishmallow.
Like all these cute littlethings that It's not the grand
gestures like going to DisneyWorld or something big.
It is just the small things.

(44:19):
And so we have to remember that.
We don't need a big house.
They're happy in their housebecause it's their home.
You need love.
And love, yeah.
Most importantly, love.
And the ability to recognizewhen you've made a mistake and
apologize for it, especiallywith your children.
Do you have any closing remarks,any messages that you would like

(44:41):
to share?

SPEAKER_01 (44:43):
I think my values are what I live by, and I just
want to share that I hope peoplelive simply and live spreading
love and kindness.
And that really is the wayforward for, I think, ourselves,

(45:05):
our society in such a split andkind of controversial world we
live in, or at least the countrywe're in right now.
And I think people can do thatwith kindness and compassion.
And as I've spoken aboutearlier, it's about listening to
one another.
We don't have to agree with eachother.
We just have to listen.

(45:26):
And feel heard.
And that's half the battle, Ithink, is people don't feel
heard so that they put up afront about one thing or
another.
And that's no way to live.
It's no way to sort of splitsociety with the right or the
left.

SPEAKER_00 (45:42):
This whole polarity, I do see a lot of issues because
people aren't listening.
We don't have to agree with youropinion.
Exactly.
We may not want to be taughtanything by their opinion, but
we need...
to listen to their perspectiveand hope that they will listen
to ours.
We're not trying to change theirmind in any way, but anyone in

(46:04):
the world, that's all they wantis to be heard and know that you
care.
And

SPEAKER_01 (46:09):
ask questions.

SPEAKER_00 (46:10):
And ask questions.
Ask

SPEAKER_01 (46:11):
questions.
So tell me more.
Why is it that you feel this wayor why is it you feel that way?
I want to learn more.
that.

SPEAKER_00 (46:18):
Yeah, I want to learn from you.

SPEAKER_01 (46:20):
I want to learn from you.
Why you feel that way.
But I want to learn about whyyou're feeling this way.
And there's not enough of that.
Clearly.
We're just not there yet.
Hopefully we will

SPEAKER_00 (46:31):
be.
I know.
And finally, you made this huge,scary jump by quitting your job,
taking this year-long trip withyour family, kids still in
school.
What advice would you give tosomeone who's living
comfortably, but they know theyare destined for more.

(46:52):
What is going to get them totake that next step?

SPEAKER_01 (46:55):
You know, I don't know, but what other someone
else is going to do to do that.
But I just found the courage andI just felt in my heart that I
wasn't living the life I wanted.
Um, and it was too small.
Like I wanted to live a biggerlife.
I wanted to live a life that hadmore impact that connected with

(47:17):
more people that gave, um, uh,opened my kids eyes.
I think maybe it'd beinteresting if I didn't have
kids, if I still would have donethat, if I was just Jane and I
were married together and youknow, would we have quit our
jobs and, you know, go off andtravel the world?
I don't know.
It's not what happened, but Ithink because I felt so

(47:39):
passionate about, um, my kidsbeing able to experience the
world and have the summer momentin their life.
I was like, no, they're going todo that.
I need to do this for them.
And therefore I found thecourage to do it for myself.
Right.
Um, and for, for, for ourfamily.
And I will say one thing that'sa little bit sort of strange to

(47:59):
say, but I think it's importantto say it wasn't as if leaving
was, uh, and not having a jobwas inexpensive.
I mean, It actually was moreaffordable for us to leave Marin
County and travel the world fora year than it was to stay in
Marin County.

SPEAKER_00 (48:16):
I understand

SPEAKER_01 (48:17):
that.
And pay my mortgage and pay allmy bills and the cable and the
cell phone and everything.
We lived on not a third, butmaybe just under half of what it
cost.
would have caused us to stayhome.
So people can do it if they wantto go and figure it out.
And then you have to have thecourage to be able to say, I can

(48:39):
get a job when I return.
And I'm going to have this lifeexperience.
And I'm going to have that lifeexperience.
And I'm transferable.
Right.
Me doing that set me up for anew career in the nonprofit
space when I got back, and thatwas amazing.
And I obviously wouldn't havehad that experience had we not
had the courage to do somethingelse and to take that jump and
take the leap off the edge.

(49:00):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 (49:01):
I wish there was something we could say to those
people who...
obviously feel that desire toserve more, to have, they know
they have a purpose, but they'renot finding that courage.
And I don't think we'll get tothat answer today, but there,

SPEAKER_01 (49:20):
it just know it's there.
Like trust.
You have to trust in the processof life and to know that, um,
you will be, um, You'll beshocked about how remarkable
life gets when you live on youredge.
I just promise that.
I mean, nobody's going to knowme who listens to this podcast,

(49:40):
but I promise you will beshocked about what you're going
to experience when you go out ofyour comfort zone.
Magic happens.
It

SPEAKER_00 (49:49):
does.
And people will know you afterthis.
My mission in this podcast is tobring everyday people's stories
because all of our voices are...
you know, they need to be heardand it's important that we tell
our stories.
So I really appreciate you beinghere today.
You did wonderful.
And I think I learned a lot andI'm excited for the future.

(50:12):
Maybe we'll talk again.
As you should be.
Thanks, Nicole.
Thank you.
Thank you guys for listening toanother episode of glow wild.
I hope that this episode helpedyou.
And if you know someone thatneeds to hear it, please share
it.
And like, subscribe, and rateand review.

(50:33):
It really helps.
Thank you so much and have agreat day.