Welcome to Season Two of GMT! A heartfelt thank you to all of our listeners. We're excited to announce that we have a jam-packed lineup of episodes coming your way in 2024. Kicking off our new season, we're thrilled to have Gus Sellitto, Founder of Byfield Consultancy, join us. Gus and his firm specialize in proactive reputation counsel for law firm leaders worldwide. In today's episode, you'll discover why a firm's reputation needs to be guarded, promoted, and protected all at once. Given our current media landscape, managing a firm's reputation is more crucial and challenging than ever. Controlling the narrative is increasingly seen as a vital part of law firms' strategic planning. Gus will highlight the major challenges law firms face in managing their reputation globally. In Part Two, we'll delve deeper into geopolitics' role and how the global marketplace influences firms' perceptions both externally and internally.
For more information contact:
Gus Sellitto
Rob Bata
Murray Coffey
Contact Rob and Murray:
Robert C. Bata, Founder and Principal, WarwickPlace Legal
Email: rbata@warwickplace.com
Murray M. Coffey, Founder and Principal, M Coffey
Email: murray@mcoffey.net
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Robert, welcome to GMT, the podcast for globally minded
(00:07):
law firm leaders with your host.
Robert Bata, principal ofWarwick place legal and Murray
Coffey, principal of M Coffey,between them, Rob and Murray
have about three quarters of acentury's experience working
with some of the most notablelaw firms on the planet. This
podcast is designed to helpthose law firm leaders tasked
(00:28):
with growth make great decisionsabout whether and how to
implement cross border expansionfor their firms and what it
takes to succeed. And now. RobBata,
Rob Bata (00:45):
hello everybody. This is Robert Bata, and I'm here
with my podcast partner, MurrayCoffey, hello everyone. GMT, and
we're very, very lucky today tohave as our guest Gus salito.
Gus salito is the founder ofByfield consultancy, which is a
reputation counsel to law firmsprofessional service
(01:09):
organizations and also manycompanies and individuals and
helping them when they facereputational risk. And we're
going to talk about what thatall means. Gus is also, in
addition to being a very goodfriend of mine, somebody I've
known for a long time, He'sbased in London. So welcome Gus.
(01:32):
And I guess I'd like to kick offby by asking you, you know What?
What? What is reputationmanagement, really, and, and how
does it come about that that youare sought out by your clients,
so and, and, and how do you dealwith all that? But that's,
that's a very big question aboutyour entire work day. But I'd
(01:55):
like to have an understanding sothat we have a distinction
between, say, PR and marketingand reputation management and
risk and so forth.
Gus Sellitto (02:07):
Well, thank you, Robert. Great to be here on the
on the podcast with you atMurray, and really looking
forward to our conversation. Andthis question is one that I'm
very happy to answer. I thinkreputation management, PR,
reputation managementcommunications is kind of the
wrap around, if you like, to PRbranding activity, marketing
(02:28):
activity. It's it's the way anorganization or individual is
perceived and how thatperception is is managed. And
that perception can be by themedia, it can be by internal
stakeholders. It can be by theregulator. It can be by your
people. It can be by a number ofinfluential bodies or
(02:50):
organizations or individualsthat you care about how they see
you. And when we look at publicrelations and marketing and
business development, they'reall brand building exercises
around promoting building apositive perception of an
organization or an individual ora law firm. And that reputation
(03:11):
management piece is, is how youmanage that on an ongoing basis.
When we talk about reputationmanagement, reputation
management PR, it's often has asort of a, maybe a negative
aspect to it, ie, reputation isbeing damaged, or there's
potential for it to be damagedin some way. And that's when we
go into the realms of crisis,PR, issues, management,
(03:34):
litigation, communications. Butbroadly, reputation management
is, is about managing the way anorganization or an individual is
perceived by your key the peoplethat the people and
organizations you care aboutmost. When it comes to
reputation management, PR, interms of the more difficult
(03:54):
areas that we're going to talkabout, some of those on this
podcast this afternoon. It's anyorganization faces risk, and
that risk has been heightened bythe global business environment
that we all operate in asbusinesses, the the increasing
globalization of regulation aswell cross border regulation,
(04:18):
laws and customs in localgeographies that impact how a
global brand is seen, how aglobal law firm is seen, the
increasing complexity of doingbusiness in New jurisdictions,
and all of these things takentogether with the increasing
glare of a bigger mediaspotlight, not just traditional
(04:39):
print, broadcast Media, but alsothe media that we have on our
phones now every day, socialmedia, Instagram, Tiktok, this
is 24 hour news that we have atour fingertips. And so you can
see that as the regulatory andbusiness environment has become
much more complex that needs tomanage reputation has become
(04:59):
more. Important and morecomplex. And with any risk comes
any business risk comeslitigation risk comes risk to
being under the glare of a mediaspotlight, and therefore that
that whole reputation managementpiece and how it's handled
globally and locally becomeseven more important.
Unknown (05:19):
You know, because quick, you know question on
this, you know, the the, I'llprobably butcher this, but I
think one of my favorite OscarWilde quotes is, you know, the,
the only thing worse than beingtalked about is not being talked
about, right? And, and so, youknow, we're Yes, we hear about
this 24 hour news cycle. We hearabout the glare of media, but
(05:43):
there's also the there's also,then I've experienced this, the
sort of, the how hard it is toto maintain the reputation, not
even in a crisis stat situation,but in a in a just just staying
sort of front of mind, and andI, you know, I know that
reputation management is notjust a is not just, it doesn't
(06:06):
just it's not just the safetynet for the reputation for the
organization, but also pushingit forward. And maybe you can
talk a little bit about howyou're working with clients,
especially on the professionalservices side, where there is
just a lot of churn going onright now in staying front of
mind, how they keep thatreputation, that they've earned
that good reputation, how they,how they continue to move it
(06:27):
forward, how they, how they, howthey, you know, don't fall into
the category of not being talkedabout.
Gus Sellitto (06:33):
Well, we're all Murray. We all work in
professional services and have aspecialism in the legal sector.
And certainly in the 25 yearsthat I've worked with law firms,
the way they conduct themselvesas corporate entity has
competent corporate entities haschanged hugely, and the way
they've professionalized theircorporate communications and the
(06:56):
investments they've madecommunications, you'll you'll
both be very aware of this. Youknow, if you walk into a top 100
UK law firm or a top 100 am lawfirm, every single one of them
now will have a corporatecommunications manager or
director, they'll have abusiness development director,
they'll have a marketingdirector. And that wasn't the
(07:18):
case 1520, years ago, and Ithink the way that corporate
businesses have grown anddeveloped, we're now seeing that
we've seen that much, much morein professional services and
those teams, those internalteams, who've become very
experienced and very talentedover the years. It's competition
(07:39):
is fierce. I'm always asked byclients, you know, how do we
differentiate ourselves as a lawfirm? Essentially, we're
offering the same kinds ofservices to similar clients, and
we're all competing for space,and our pricing is similar, and
profile and reputation are twokey elements in how you try and
(08:04):
get some white space foryourself in a very crowded
market. So having coordinatedcommunication campaigns thought
leadership, you know, we've allseen this develop hugely, and
the market, even for things likethought leadership and reports,
has become quite crowded, andseeing differentiation firms
doing it really, really well, iswhen you really notice that, but
(08:25):
the way we consume information,the way we can consume advice,
ultimately, law firms areselling their professionalism,
their expertise, theirknowledge, their people, and
therefore making sure thatthat's communicated to the
people who matter most, the GCS,the C suite, the individuals
that they're acting for.
Competition is fierce out there,so you have to be communicating
(08:47):
regularly. You have to be comingup with original and innovative
campaigns to help you stand outa little bit more. And you have
to be promoting your people asexperts for the reasons that
their clients hire them. Andthat can be a practice area
level. It can be an industry andsector area level. It can be and
(09:09):
this is, this is an area thatwe've seen as well law firms
being more than or lawyers beingseen them more than being
technically excellent, you needto be able to really good
knowledge of your clients,industry and sector, and
producing really good contentand campaigns that show your
clients you've gone the extramile. Is, is does give you the
(09:32):
ability to stand out a littlebit. And this is where, I think,
where we talk about profile,raising, PR and reputation. It
becomes really, reallyimportant,
Rob Bata (09:43):
yeah, and that's, and you mentioned how intensely
competitive it is, and, and whatyou're describing is a very
difficult job, and, and youobviously do that well, but let
me take it. Let me zoom out alittle bit more. So Murray had a
quote, so I'm going to try tobutcher another quote, which is
(10:04):
the Shakespeare quote. Firstfirst thing, let's kill all the
lawyers. So law firms generally,or lawyers generally, have had,
let's say, an interestingreputation through the ages. But
but the reality is that in thebusiness world, of course, that
wasn't the case. But untilfairly recently, law firms were
(10:28):
not the subject of generaldiscussion in the world. People
didn't know law firms by name.
People didn't talk about didn'thear about lawyer salaries or
how much young people were beingpaid they didn't hear about whom
they represented. All of that.
Today you have a global arena inwhich many law firms actually
(10:55):
are very well known householdnames, maybe not to every, every
person in the street, but butmuch, much better known and they
acquire certain reputations.
Some are criticized forrepresenting certain
politicians. Some are criticizedfor being involved in helping to
pick US Supreme Court justices.
(11:18):
Some are criticized because theyrepresent oil companies in terms
of that bigger picture, leavingaside how you communicate with
those very importantconstituents, the clients, the
internal teams, the potentialrecruits, potential lateral
acquisitions and so forth. Howdoes, how does reputation
(11:44):
manage? How has reputationmanagement changed over the past
few years, in terms of seeinglaw firms from that bigger that,
that more universal type ofpicture, law firms either as
crusaders for the good, let'ssay, let's say, you know, public
interest law firms versus say,corporate law firms, which are
(12:09):
really our clients, and thenwhich, which we know, do a world
of good, but also are oftencriticized in one way or
another, depending on Whatpeople's perspectives are. How,
how, how does, how does that gethandled? And let me just add
this. There have been both inthe US and the UK, criticisms of
(12:34):
lawyers. You had the famous casein in in the UK with a minister
talking about lefty lawyers thisand that you've got similar
sorts of things going on in theUS, in other words, where the
whole function of the legalindustry has been somewhat under
(12:55):
attack, as opposed to what hadalways been a universally
accepted notion that everybodydeserves to be represented. I
think has been sort ofuniversally accepted everybody
deserves representation, whetheryou're a murderer or a private
equity company. How have howhave you seen that shift, and
(13:22):
how have you responded to that,that those kinds of challenges?
Well,
Gus Sellitto (13:27):
I take you back to your quote, your Shakespeare
quote, that you know,Shakespeare killed all the
lawyers. So that perception oflawyers being negative, shall we
say, is quite an age oldperception. I think it goes back
to Murray's point. You know,when we talk about reputation
management and the huge job thatlaw firms have done in raising
(13:50):
their profiles. That you knownow if you mention a law firm,
it is, are they? Are theybrands? Well, there are a few
law firms we can mention thatare seen as brands and that
people would recognizeimmediately, if, if you mention
that that law firm's name. Andso with that, with that brand
recognition, comes additionalscrutiny. And I think the it's
(14:12):
not just law firms. We've seenthis, as I said, as the
regulatory environment has hasbecome much more complex, and
the globalization of businessand doing business globally. It
means we're dealing withdifferent cultures, different
customs. We're seeing this nowwith law firms opening in Saudi
Arabia, for example, and thentheir commitments lgt LGBTQ
(14:34):
plus, for example. And the mediais really looking at that quite
closely. So I think there's noeasy answer here, Robert and law
firms the right torepresentation. Certain law
firms will take certain stancesin terms of clients they will
and won't act for. But if youlook at, for example, polluting
clients, there's a questionthere, where do you just stop
(14:58):
acting for those clients? Or doyou. Of those clients go on a
journey so that they becomecleaner? And that's that's a
question that's going to dividea lot of opinion, particularly
with the younger generation oflawyers coming through, who do
have more sort of they want,they want their organizations to
be seen, to be acting in acertain way. So I don't think
(15:21):
there were any easy answers tothis, but it comes down to the
law firm and its kind of broadpositioning in the market, the
kinds of clients it acts for,and being honest and transparent
about those those areas that itacts in, and making sure that
its communications areconsistent across offices and
(15:42):
across jurisdictions. And as Isay, that's not always an easy
balancing act, but having acertain level of I mean, we all
now have law firms. All willhave values and principles that
they adhere to. They will havepurpose statements and making
sure that as much as possiblethey are adhering to what
they're saying publicly, butrealizing that there are gray
(16:06):
areas and difficulties, whereyou have law firms operating
globally for companies thatgenerally can have a bad public
image or a tarnish reputation,but that you are acting for
those companies, but you'rebeing clear about some of where
your your your sort ofboundaries lie in terms of the
kinds of clients you will andwon't take on. I mean, clearly
(16:27):
we saw this when law firmsclosed down their operations in
in Russia following the war inUkraine. Obviously that was
followed by sanctions whichprevented you from acting for
those clients. But it's thosekind of big geopolitical,
geopolitical issues that comesbefore where law firms do have
to take more of a determinedresponse. But some of these gray
(16:49):
areas where law firms areoperating in Saudi or they're
acting for big polluters who aregoing on a journey to become
clearer, those are difficultareas to navigate for any
business.
Rob Bata (17:02):
Yeah, that's, that's, that's very insightful, and,
and, and I think it's certainlycorrect that this is, it's
become more difficult to to dothose things. And you're right
that it's perhaps part of thejob of the outside consultant or
the reputation managementconsultant to to help them on
(17:23):
what you describe as the journeyto become perhaps more
responsible citizens, orwhatever the case, depending on
your perspective, I want to askyou before we get to the
geopolitical types of risks, Iwanted to ask you about the
growth of class actions, orsometimes in Europe, that's
(17:44):
known as collective redress andso forth. America has perfected
the the the class action model,but also the sort of personal
injury and kind of plaintivepractice, and without, without
(18:06):
putting any value judgment on onclass actions, I I'd be
interested in your sense of, howdid that come about, that
there's so much more of thatgoing on right now in the UK and
in Europe and and how are, howare the reputations of the firms
(18:31):
defending these class actionsaffected by that development?
Gus Sellitto (18:37):
It's a huge area of development here in Europe
right now, Robert, and that'sbecause we've got legislation
across Europe, which is thisconsumer redress directive, and
even though now UK is outside ofthe EU, we still have our own
class action system, which isdeveloping and is probably a
more advanced stage of many ofour European cousins. It's
(19:00):
really interesting, because Iwas dealing with class actions,
where you would have arepresentative group, it would
be US law firms that were comingto the UK to look for class
members who were affected,because they had a link back to
a listing, a company that waslisted in the US. So it's, it's
(19:22):
not new in terms of classactions of UK companies and
entities and pension funds beingparty to class actions that are
taking place back in the States.
But very much it's, it's theit's the US model that we're now
seeing here, with all of thecriticisms and benefits that
we're seeing the compensationsystem is very different in the
(19:43):
US. But as you two know muchbetter than I do, there's been a
huge benefit of class actions, ahuge sort of public good
perception of class actions inbeing able to offer access to
justice. But that has come witha lot. Be which has said, you
know, this is ambulance chasing.
The damages are ridiculous.
There are spurious claims beingbrought. So that that reputation
(20:06):
management of the claimant anddefendant, the plaintiff bar in
the US has been something thatI've watched very, very closely
over the years, and thedevelopment of the third party
funding industry, which, again,we've seen develop from the US,
and is now firmly establishedhere in the UK, certainly, and
more, more and more so inEurope, I think look, if we look
(20:29):
at what the directive says,it's, it's the consumer redress
directive, and the intentionthere is, is to protect
consumers. So we have these bigDavid versus Goliath type
actions, you know, majorcorporations being sued, where
that there is a real public harmthat's happened, and we've seen
this with some, you know,seminal cases in the US that
(20:53):
have turned into blockbustermovies. So as a principle the
protection of consumer rightsthrough these group actions and
these class actions has to besomething which is a real public
good in the furtherance of ofaccess to justice. And that
debate is happening here in theUK, and we're seeing these big
David versus Goliath actionsbeing taken, but they come with
(21:15):
reputational risk and criticismas well. There's often you know
the motivations of the the theparties you know, how much
compensation do you actuallyget? Back after this class
section has been going on for somany years? Is it sort of
ambulance chasing to bring theseclaims, all of those issues that
(21:37):
you've dealt with in the States,where we're seeing here. So I
think, as a principle and as away of achieving access to
justice, class actions areimportant part of our litigation
environment. We're going to seemore and more of them in the UK
and Europe because of thisconsumer redress directive and
(21:59):
the reputational aspects need tobe managed, both from the
plaintiff claim of bar in termsof the motivations for bringing
these actions, how they'recoordinated, how the class is
kept informed throughout, whichis one of the areas that we do a
lot of work in making sure thatpeople know why they're part of
a class Action, how themechanics work, how long it
(22:20):
might take, and what kind ofcompensation they might receive,
and from a defendantperspective, it goes back to
your point, Robert, and reallyinterested to hear your views on
how you've seen class actionsdevelop and perceptions of class
actions develop in the States.
But for those defending classactions, you know, corporations
have a right also to defendthose class actions, or at least
(22:45):
where there is some liability,to explain how they've addressed
that issue, if there's been aregulatory finding. And so the
defense lawyers have animportant part to play in that,
too. Sure.
Rob Bata (22:59):
Well, yeah, I think you're absolutely right that the
US model is now taking root,what you might call the US model
taking root in Europe and and alot of that is has been made
possible by the variousdirectives. I think that you
know, there's, there's a conceptin in US law that talks about
(23:22):
the notion of the PrivateAttorney General, so the lawyer
who brings the case really kindof stands in the shoes of the
government that may not be ableto represent the rights of
somebody who has been wronged insome way, in some way, that can
be legally addressed the US. Thediscussion is very often about,
(23:47):
there are too many wrongs beingaddressed legally as opposed to
some other manner. And I thinkthat's a legitimate discussion.
Everything doesn't necessarilyresult in shouldn't necessarily
result in lawsuits. On the otherhand, class actions have been
very, very important, and Ithink, I think the role for
(24:09):
those, for those defending classactions, and I think it's
important to defend them too,because everybody deserves a
defense the successful ways ofdoing that is not to throw
around accusations of ambulancechasing or saying that it's not
doing anything for theindividual members, but really
(24:31):
to look at the actual legalissues and also to figure out
ways that, yes, maybe there's away of changing some behavior
That wasn't right, and maybethere's a way of addressing the
compensation element that isn'tjust seen as a big payoff for
the plaintiffs firm, for theclass action firm, although
there's that too, because thosepeople put in a lot of time and
(24:55):
genuine effort. So I think inthe. Us. It's it's certainly
very much accepted. It's a verymuch accepted notion. And I
think firms that defend classactions are well prepared for
them. They know who are thebetter law firms that bring
class actions and know how towork with them and deal with
(25:17):
them and ultimately negotiatesettlements and so forth. And I
think on the whole, they've,they've, they've done a good
job. The danger again and the USis very you know, everybody's a
lawyer in this country in thesense that our monarch is the
constitution, or precisely theConstitutional Convention, and
(25:41):
that's all about rights. TheBill of Rights, you have this
right, you have that right. Andthere is a there's a tendency to
feel that that means that everywrong has a legal remedy. And
sometimes that's magnified bysocial media and on that that
could be a legitimate debate.
Unknown (26:04):
And that ends part one of GMTs conversation with Gus
solito, founder of Byfieldreputation Council. You.
Robert, welcome to GMT, the podcast for globally minded
(00:07):
law firm leaders with your host.
Robert Bata, principal ofWarwick place legal and Murray
Coffey, principal of M Coffey,between them, Rob and Murray
have about three quarters of acentury's experience working
with some of the most notablelaw firms on the planet. This
podcast is designed to helpthose law firm leaders tasked
(00:28):
with growth make great decisionsabout whether and how to
implement cross border expansionfor their firms and what it
takes to succeed. And now. RobBata,
Rob Bata (00:45):
hello everybody. This is Robert Bata, and I'm here
with my podcast partner, MurrayCoffey, hello everyone. GMT, and
we're very, very lucky today tohave as our guest Gus salito.
Gus salito is the founder ofByfield consultancy, which is a
reputation counsel to law firmsprofessional service
(01:09):
organizations and also manycompanies and individuals and
helping them when they facereputational risk. And we're
going to talk about what thatall means. Gus is also, in
addition to being a very goodfriend of mine, somebody I've
known for a long time, He'sbased in London. So welcome Gus.
(01:32):
And I guess I'd like to kick offby by asking you, you know What?
What? What is reputationmanagement, really, and, and how
does it come about that that youare sought out by your clients,
so and, and, and how do you dealwith all that? But that's,
that's a very big question aboutyour entire work day. But I'd
(01:55):
like to have an understanding sothat we have a distinction
between, say, PR and marketingand reputation management and
risk and so forth.
Gus Sellitto (02:07):
Well, thank you, Robert. Great to be here on the
on the podcast with you atMurray, and really looking
forward to our conversation. Andthis question is one that I'm
very happy to answer. I thinkreputation management, PR,
reputation managementcommunications is kind of the
wrap around, if you like, to PRbranding activity, marketing
(02:28):
activity. It's it's the way anorganization or individual is
perceived and how thatperception is is managed. And
that perception can be by themedia, it can be by internal
stakeholders. It can be by theregulator. It can be by your
people. It can be by a number ofinfluential bodies or
(02:50):
organizations or individualsthat you care about how they see
you. And when we look at publicrelations and marketing and
business development, they'reall brand building exercises
around promoting building apositive perception of an
organization or an individual ora law firm. And that reputation
(03:11):
management piece is, is how youmanage that on an ongoing basis.
When we talk about reputationmanagement, reputation
management PR, it's often has asort of a, maybe a negative
aspect to it, ie, reputation isbeing damaged, or there's
potential for it to be damagedin some way. And that's when we
go into the realms of crisis,PR, issues, management,
(03:34):
litigation, communications. Butbroadly, reputation management
is, is about managing the way anorganization or an individual is
perceived by your key the peoplethat the people and
organizations you care aboutmost. When it comes to
reputation management, PR, interms of the more difficult
(03:54):
areas that we're going to talkabout, some of those on this
podcast this afternoon. It's anyorganization faces risk, and
that risk has been heightened bythe global business environment
that we all operate in asbusinesses, the the increasing
globalization of regulation aswell cross border regulation,
(04:18):
laws and customs in localgeographies that impact how a
global brand is seen, how aglobal law firm is seen, the
increasing complexity of doingbusiness in New jurisdictions,
and all of these things takentogether with the increasing
glare of a bigger mediaspotlight, not just traditional
(04:39):
print, broadcast Media, but alsothe media that we have on our
phones now every day, socialmedia, Instagram, Tiktok, this
is 24 hour news that we have atour fingertips. And so you can
see that as the regulatory andbusiness environment has become
much more complex that needs tomanage reputation has become
(04:59):
more. Important and morecomplex. And with any risk comes
any business risk comeslitigation risk comes risk to
being under the glare of a mediaspotlight, and therefore that
that whole reputation managementpiece and how it's handled
globally and locally becomeseven more important.
Unknown (05:19):
You know, because quick, you know question on
this, you know, the the, I'llprobably butcher this, but I
think one of my favorite OscarWilde quotes is, you know, the,
the only thing worse than beingtalked about is not being talked
about, right? And, and so, youknow, we're Yes, we hear about
this 24 hour news cycle. We hearabout the glare of media, but
(05:43):
there's also the there's also,then I've experienced this, the
sort of, the how hard it is toto maintain the reputation, not
even in a crisis stat situation,but in a in a just just staying
sort of front of mind, and andI, you know, I know that
reputation management is notjust a is not just, it doesn't
(06:06):
just it's not just the safetynet for the reputation for the
organization, but also pushingit forward. And maybe you can
talk a little bit about howyou're working with clients,
especially on the professionalservices side, where there is
just a lot of churn going onright now in staying front of
mind, how they keep thatreputation, that they've earned
that good reputation, how they,how they continue to move it
(06:27):
forward, how they, how they, howthey, you know, don't fall into
the category of not being talkedabout.
Gus Sellitto (06:33):
Well, we're all Murray. We all work in
professional services and have aspecialism in the legal sector.
And certainly in the 25 yearsthat I've worked with law firms,
the way they conduct themselvesas corporate entity has
competent corporate entities haschanged hugely, and the way
they've professionalized theircorporate communications and the
(06:56):
investments they've madecommunications, you'll you'll
both be very aware of this. Youknow, if you walk into a top 100
UK law firm or a top 100 am lawfirm, every single one of them
now will have a corporatecommunications manager or
director, they'll have abusiness development director,
they'll have a marketingdirector. And that wasn't the
(07:18):
case 1520, years ago, and Ithink the way that corporate
businesses have grown anddeveloped, we're now seeing that
we've seen that much, much morein professional services and
those teams, those internalteams, who've become very
experienced and very talentedover the years. It's competition
(07:39):
is fierce. I'm always asked byclients, you know, how do we
differentiate ourselves as a lawfirm? Essentially, we're
offering the same kinds ofservices to similar clients, and
we're all competing for space,and our pricing is similar, and
profile and reputation are twokey elements in how you try and
(08:04):
get some white space foryourself in a very crowded
market. So having coordinatedcommunication campaigns thought
leadership, you know, we've allseen this develop hugely, and
the market, even for things likethought leadership and reports,
has become quite crowded, andseeing differentiation firms
doing it really, really well, iswhen you really notice that, but
(08:25):
the way we consume information,the way we can consume advice,
ultimately, law firms areselling their professionalism,
their expertise, theirknowledge, their people, and
therefore making sure thatthat's communicated to the
people who matter most, the GCS,the C suite, the individuals
that they're acting for.
Competition is fierce out there,so you have to be communicating
(08:47):
regularly. You have to be comingup with original and innovative
campaigns to help you stand outa little bit more. And you have
to be promoting your people asexperts for the reasons that
their clients hire them. Andthat can be a practice area
level. It can be an industry andsector area level. It can be and
(09:09):
this is, this is an area thatwe've seen as well law firms
being more than or lawyers beingseen them more than being
technically excellent, you needto be able to really good
knowledge of your clients,industry and sector, and
producing really good contentand campaigns that show your
clients you've gone the extramile. Is, is does give you the
(09:32):
ability to stand out a littlebit. And this is where, I think,
where we talk about profile,raising, PR and reputation. It
becomes really, reallyimportant,
Rob Bata (09:43):
yeah, and that's, and you mentioned how intensely
competitive it is, and, and whatyou're describing is a very
difficult job, and, and youobviously do that well, but let
me take it. Let me zoom out alittle bit more. So Murray had a
quote, so I'm going to try tobutcher another quote, which is
(10:04):
the Shakespeare quote. Firstfirst thing, let's kill all the
lawyers. So law firms generally,or lawyers generally, have had,
let's say, an interestingreputation through the ages. But
but the reality is that in thebusiness world, of course, that
wasn't the case. But untilfairly recently, law firms were
(10:28):
not the subject of generaldiscussion in the world. People
didn't know law firms by name.
People didn't talk about didn'thear about lawyer salaries or
how much young people were beingpaid they didn't hear about whom
they represented. All of that.
Today you have a global arena inwhich many law firms actually
(10:55):
are very well known householdnames, maybe not to every, every
person in the street, but butmuch, much better known and they
acquire certain reputations.
Some are criticized forrepresenting certain
politicians. Some are criticizedfor being involved in helping to
pick US Supreme Court justices.
(11:18):
Some are criticized because theyrepresent oil companies in terms
of that bigger picture, leavingaside how you communicate with
those very importantconstituents, the clients, the
internal teams, the potentialrecruits, potential lateral
acquisitions and so forth. Howdoes, how does reputation
(11:44):
manage? How has reputationmanagement changed over the past
few years, in terms of seeinglaw firms from that bigger that,
that more universal type ofpicture, law firms either as
crusaders for the good, let'ssay, let's say, you know, public
interest law firms versus say,corporate law firms, which are
(12:09):
really our clients, and thenwhich, which we know, do a world
of good, but also are oftencriticized in one way or
another, depending on Whatpeople's perspectives are. How,
how, how does, how does that gethandled? And let me just add
this. There have been both inthe US and the UK, criticisms of
(12:34):
lawyers. You had the famous casein in in the UK with a minister
talking about lefty lawyers thisand that you've got similar
sorts of things going on in theUS, in other words, where the
whole function of the legalindustry has been somewhat under
(12:55):
attack, as opposed to what hadalways been a universally
accepted notion that everybodydeserves to be represented. I
think has been sort ofuniversally accepted everybody
deserves representation, whetheryou're a murderer or a private
equity company. How have howhave you seen that shift, and
(13:22):
how have you responded to that,that those kinds of challenges?
Well,
Gus Sellitto (13:27):
I take you back to your quote, your Shakespeare
quote, that you know,Shakespeare killed all the
lawyers. So that perception oflawyers being negative, shall we
say, is quite an age oldperception. I think it goes back
to Murray's point. You know,when we talk about reputation
management and the huge job thatlaw firms have done in raising
(13:50):
their profiles. That you knownow if you mention a law firm,
it is, are they? Are theybrands? Well, there are a few
law firms we can mention thatare seen as brands and that
people would recognizeimmediately, if, if you mention
that that law firm's name. Andso with that, with that brand
recognition, comes additionalscrutiny. And I think the it's
(14:12):
not just law firms. We've seenthis, as I said, as the
regulatory environment has hasbecome much more complex, and
the globalization of businessand doing business globally. It
means we're dealing withdifferent cultures, different
customs. We're seeing this nowwith law firms opening in Saudi
Arabia, for example, and thentheir commitments lgt LGBTQ
(14:34):
plus, for example. And the mediais really looking at that quite
closely. So I think there's noeasy answer here, Robert and law
firms the right torepresentation. Certain law
firms will take certain stancesin terms of clients they will
and won't act for. But if youlook at, for example, polluting
clients, there's a questionthere, where do you just stop
(14:58):
acting for those clients? Or doyou. Of those clients go on a
journey so that they becomecleaner? And that's that's a
question that's going to dividea lot of opinion, particularly
with the younger generation oflawyers coming through, who do
have more sort of they want,they want their organizations to
be seen, to be acting in acertain way. So I don't think
(15:21):
there were any easy answers tothis, but it comes down to the
law firm and its kind of broadpositioning in the market, the
kinds of clients it acts for,and being honest and transparent
about those those areas that itacts in, and making sure that
its communications areconsistent across offices and
(15:42):
across jurisdictions. And as Isay, that's not always an easy
balancing act, but having acertain level of I mean, we all
now have law firms. All willhave values and principles that
they adhere to. They will havepurpose statements and making
sure that as much as possiblethey are adhering to what
they're saying publicly, butrealizing that there are gray
(16:06):
areas and difficulties, whereyou have law firms operating
globally for companies thatgenerally can have a bad public
image or a tarnish reputation,but that you are acting for
those companies, but you'rebeing clear about some of where
your your your sort ofboundaries lie in terms of the
kinds of clients you will andwon't take on. I mean, clearly
(16:27):
we saw this when law firmsclosed down their operations in
in Russia following the war inUkraine. Obviously that was
followed by sanctions whichprevented you from acting for
those clients. But it's thosekind of big geopolitical,
geopolitical issues that comesbefore where law firms do have
to take more of a determinedresponse. But some of these gray
(16:49):
areas where law firms areoperating in Saudi or they're
acting for big polluters who aregoing on a journey to become
clearer, those are difficultareas to navigate for any
business.
Rob Bata (17:02):
Yeah, that's, that's, that's very insightful, and,
and, and I think it's certainlycorrect that this is, it's
become more difficult to to dothose things. And you're right
that it's perhaps part of thejob of the outside consultant or
the reputation managementconsultant to to help them on
(17:23):
what you describe as the journeyto become perhaps more
responsible citizens, orwhatever the case, depending on
your perspective, I want to askyou before we get to the
geopolitical types of risks, Iwanted to ask you about the
growth of class actions, orsometimes in Europe, that's
(17:44):
known as collective redress andso forth. America has perfected
the the the class action model,but also the sort of personal
injury and kind of plaintivepractice, and without, without
(18:06):
putting any value judgment on onclass actions, I I'd be
interested in your sense of, howdid that come about, that
there's so much more of thatgoing on right now in the UK and
in Europe and and how are, howare the reputations of the firms
(18:31):
defending these class actionsaffected by that development?
Gus Sellitto (18:37):
It's a huge area of development here in Europe
right now, Robert, and that'sbecause we've got legislation
across Europe, which is thisconsumer redress directive, and
even though now UK is outside ofthe EU, we still have our own
class action system, which isdeveloping and is probably a
more advanced stage of many ofour European cousins. It's
(19:00):
really interesting, because Iwas dealing with class actions,
where you would have arepresentative group, it would
be US law firms that were comingto the UK to look for class
members who were affected,because they had a link back to
a listing, a company that waslisted in the US. So it's, it's
(19:22):
not new in terms of classactions of UK companies and
entities and pension funds beingparty to class actions that are
taking place back in the States.
But very much it's, it's theit's the US model that we're now
seeing here, with all of thecriticisms and benefits that
we're seeing the compensationsystem is very different in the
(19:43):
US. But as you two know muchbetter than I do, there's been a
huge benefit of class actions, ahuge sort of public good
perception of class actions inbeing able to offer access to
justice. But that has come witha lot. Be which has said, you
know, this is ambulance chasing.
The damages are ridiculous.
There are spurious claims beingbrought. So that that reputation
(20:06):
management of the claimant anddefendant, the plaintiff bar in
the US has been something thatI've watched very, very closely
over the years, and thedevelopment of the third party
funding industry, which, again,we've seen develop from the US,
and is now firmly establishedhere in the UK, certainly, and
more, more and more so inEurope, I think look, if we look
(20:29):
at what the directive says,it's, it's the consumer redress
directive, and the intentionthere is, is to protect
consumers. So we have these bigDavid versus Goliath type
actions, you know, majorcorporations being sued, where
that there is a real public harmthat's happened, and we've seen
this with some, you know,seminal cases in the US that
(20:53):
have turned into blockbustermovies. So as a principle the
protection of consumer rightsthrough these group actions and
these class actions has to besomething which is a real public
good in the furtherance of ofaccess to justice. And that
debate is happening here in theUK, and we're seeing these big
David versus Goliath actionsbeing taken, but they come with
(21:15):
reputational risk and criticismas well. There's often you know
the motivations of the the theparties you know, how much
compensation do you actuallyget? Back after this class
section has been going on for somany years? Is it sort of
ambulance chasing to bring theseclaims, all of those issues that
(21:37):
you've dealt with in the States,where we're seeing here. So I
think, as a principle and as away of achieving access to
justice, class actions areimportant part of our litigation
environment. We're going to seemore and more of them in the UK
and Europe because of thisconsumer redress directive and
(21:59):
the reputational aspects need tobe managed, both from the
plaintiff claim of bar in termsof the motivations for bringing
these actions, how they'recoordinated, how the class is
kept informed throughout, whichis one of the areas that we do a
lot of work in making sure thatpeople know why they're part of
a class Action, how themechanics work, how long it
(22:20):
might take, and what kind ofcompensation they might receive,
and from a defendantperspective, it goes back to
your point, Robert, and reallyinterested to hear your views on
how you've seen class actionsdevelop and perceptions of class
actions develop in the States.
But for those defending classactions, you know, corporations
have a right also to defendthose class actions, or at least
(22:45):
where there is some liability,to explain how they've addressed
that issue, if there's been aregulatory finding. And so the
defense lawyers have animportant part to play in that,
too. Sure.
Rob Bata (22:59):
Well, yeah, I think you're absolutely right that the
US model is now taking root,what you might call the US model
taking root in Europe and and alot of that is has been made
possible by the variousdirectives. I think that you
know, there's, there's a conceptin in US law that talks about
(23:22):
the notion of the PrivateAttorney General, so the lawyer
who brings the case really kindof stands in the shoes of the
government that may not be ableto represent the rights of
somebody who has been wronged insome way, in some way, that can
be legally addressed the US. Thediscussion is very often about,
(23:47):
there are too many wrongs beingaddressed legally as opposed to
some other manner. And I thinkthat's a legitimate discussion.
Everything doesn't necessarilyresult in shouldn't necessarily
result in lawsuits. On the otherhand, class actions have been
very, very important, and Ithink, I think the role for
(24:09):
those, for those defending classactions, and I think it's
important to defend them too,because everybody deserves a
defense the successful ways ofdoing that is not to throw
around accusations of ambulancechasing or saying that it's not
doing anything for theindividual members, but really
(24:31):
to look at the actual legalissues and also to figure out
ways that, yes, maybe there's away of changing some behavior
That wasn't right, and maybethere's a way of addressing the
compensation element that isn'tjust seen as a big payoff for
the plaintiffs firm, for theclass action firm, although
there's that too, because thosepeople put in a lot of time and
(24:55):
genuine effort. So I think inthe. Us. It's it's certainly
very much accepted. It's a verymuch accepted notion. And I
think firms that defend classactions are well prepared for
them. They know who are thebetter law firms that bring
class actions and know how towork with them and deal with
(25:17):
them and ultimately negotiatesettlements and so forth. And I
think on the whole, they've,they've, they've done a good
job. The danger again and the USis very you know, everybody's a
lawyer in this country in thesense that our monarch is the
constitution, or precisely theConstitutional Convention, and
(25:41):
that's all about rights. TheBill of Rights, you have this
right, you have that right. Andthere is a there's a tendency to
feel that that means that everywrong has a legal remedy. And
sometimes that's magnified bysocial media and on that that
could be a legitimate debate.
Unknown (26:04):
And that ends part one of GMTs conversation with Gus
solito, founder of Byfieldreputation Council. You.
Popular Podcasts
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.