GMT proudly presents Part II of our conversation with the irrepressible and always thoughtful David Kaufman, Director of Global Strategies at Nixon Peabody LLP. In this episode David and Rob dig into global growth strategy or, to put a finer point on it, strategies. Both David and Rob know of what they speak as both are globally recognized leaders in growth across just about every border imaginable. Murray peppers in a bit but he really went to school listening to these two incredibly down-to-earth professionals share their knowledge. This is a treat. Please subscribe and, as always, let us know how we can make this podcast better for you and, if there is a subject, we should consider covering in the GMT podcast.
Contact Rob and Murray:
Robert C. Bata, Founder and Principal, WarwickPlace Legal
Email: rbata@warwickplace.com
Murray M. Coffey, Founder and Principal, M Coffey
Email: murray@mcoffey.net
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Robert, welcome to GMT, the podcast for globally minded
(00:05):
law firm leaders with your host.
Robert Bata, principal ofWarwick place legal and Murray
Coffey, principal of M Coffey,between them, Rob and Murray
have about three quarters of acentury's experience working
with some of the most notablelaw firms on the planet. This
podcast is designed to helpthose law firm leaders tasked
with growth make great decisionsabout whether and how to
(00:28):
implement cross border expansionfor their firms and what it
takes to succeed. And now parttwo of GMTs conversation with
David Kaufman, the Director ofGlobal strategies at Nixon
Peabody,
Rob Bata (00:47):
I'd like to turn a little bit to the idea of
international strategy andinternational business
development, and also in termsof not just bringing into the
business, but also looking atopportunities and perhaps law
firm expansion, which is reallywhat I do, and cross border
mergers and so forth. So one ofthe ways that I do my job is I
(01:16):
try to keep track of friends,and I look at economies, and I
look at political situations andso forth. So in one sense, you
could say that I kind of sitback and and try to absorb as
much information as I can. Butin reality, what I really do is
(01:36):
my clients come to me, or Imight come to my clients, or
prospective clients and say, Youdo x, and that's something that
you could do a lot more and lotbetter, and do much more for
your clients if you had apresence in or if you had a
relationship in such and such acountry. So when a client comes
(01:58):
to me and says, but we reallyneed a little bit more of
development and clientele in anarea that we're now really
getting into when we have, youknow this person and that person
who got great expertise in it,but they're not really sure
about how to how to make more ofit. I can say this is what that
(02:22):
practice would mean in such andsuch a country, or this is who's
doing it somewhere else in theworld. And sometimes, to use the
points you guys made, this iswhat you need to do. This is
what you need to be doing. Sowhile, on the one hand, I kind
of sit back and try to trackwhat's going on in the world.
(02:45):
The point of that really is forme to be able to respond very
quickly to clients, but at thesame time also kind of bide my
time. You know, I will take avery long time to think about,
is this firm going to beinterested, because someday they
will want to be in Luxembourg,but not right now, but I'm going
(03:07):
to call them in 16 months,
Unknown (03:09):
a single attorney. I learned a long time ago, a
single attorney is not a is nota practice. Make this because
and and and hope is not astrategy. And there's a lot of
times when, when lawyers willsay, you know, you know, we're
going to have this practicebecause that's because that's
what you want to do. Yeah, I getit. I understand that's what you
(03:30):
want to do. But it doesn't meanthat we that we have a practice
in this geography. It doesn'tmean that we have a practice in
this area, you know, let's Whoelse, who else can we get be
interested in doing this? Youknow? Because, you know, I've
seen over the years at our firmand other firms, you start, you
know people, you start withgreat fanfare, and then things
either peter out, don't happen,or that person loses interest,
(03:52):
or that person leaves, and then,like, what are you left? So I
think that an idea is that youknow, for you to put that kind
of firm weight behind somethingyou really need to have, you
know, a broad team of people.
You need to have commitment. Youneed to have, you know, in some
extent, you need to have a planB, a Plan C. You have to figure
out, like, Okay, this goesreally well, you know what? Who
else we have to work with? Andit's just, you know, it's the
(04:14):
same thing, like, when I workwith companies that are coming
into the US, you know, I alwaystell them, I said, let's think
about, like, what's the worstcase scenario? What's the best
case scenario? And, you know, inthe worst case scenario is, you
know, maybe having a jointventure is not a good idea,
because if the joint venturegoes south, you know, then
you're out of luck in the US. Somaybe we think about a joint
venture in Florida, and then wegive them Florida to do it,
(04:38):
whatever. So I think it's thesame kind of idea.
Rob Bata (04:42):
So how do you how do you spot an opportunity? You
know, in your case, you seethings happen, and you conclude
that there's an opportunity.
What do you do? And let me giveyou an example, because I know
this is a. Example that thatyou've, you've dealt with, let's
say there's some current bankingcrisis, or perhaps something
(05:06):
having to do with cryptocurrencymeltdown, or anything like that.
What's, what's the thoughtprocess that runs through your
mind? Well, the
Unknown (05:16):
advantage I have is that I deal with a lot, you
know, I'm dealing with the realtime. I'm dealing with a huge
amount of information points. Sothe idea that, you know, I have,
you know, we'll have huge amountof contact and interaction if
something's going on, you know,I'm hearing it from our own
attorneys. I'm here forcompliance and hearing from
(05:36):
referral sources, you know. Solike when Silicon Valley Bank
went down, you know, I got tonsof calls because, you know,
I've, for some people, theythink of it. I'm their guy in
San Francisco. So it's like, ohmy god, I'm going to call David
and see what's happening. And sowhat I've learned is that
oftentimes, you know, that thoseare, you know, I don't take
those as points where I kind ofshow off and say, like, I know
(05:57):
something, because, you know, atthe beginning of that, I really
didn't have that much to say.
But what I did do, you know, myand my grandmother, she had
this, this great piece ofadvice. She said, You know, you
have two years and two eyes andone mouth, use it. Use those
things and and so I listened.
And so I it was interesting,because I'd said by Saturday
(06:21):
night, I told my wife, bySaturday night, I had a pretty
good idea what was going tohappen, because I talked to
enough people from variouspoints of the world and, you
know, government, you knowbusiness, you know outside the
US, inside the US, that I kindof figured that the you know,
that there would be a backstopin some way, and that, You know
exactly I went to bed Saturdaynight, knowing what, exactly,
(06:43):
what happened on Sunday, Sundayevening. So I think, you know,
and then kind of advise peoplealong the way what I was
thinking when it comes toadopting a different strategy,
or thinking about, how do you,how do you change the business,
you know, example, thatunfortunately, was COVID, in
terms that the I was, you know,I saw the COVID pandemic given
(07:07):
my work in China, you know,ahead of time. I mean, I was
quoted in the San FranciscoChronicle talking about when
they closed Wuhan down. And, youknow, I kind of explained that
this is, this is an example whatit could be, it's Wuhan today,
but it could be other places,you know, in the future. And I
was dealing with it for manyweeks before it actually hit in
(07:29):
the US. And therefore the, Ithink that's why the firm, you
know, kind of pointed me thehead of our, our Coronavirus
Response Team, and the idea thatwe, you know, I knew what we'd
have to be doing. I knew what,where it was coming based upon
the fact that I'd seen it happenin China previously. So I think
you have to use various datapoints. You have to figure out
what's going on, but, but real,live information, and then, you
(07:51):
know, be a little, you know, askquestions, think, listen, look
and be skeptical. Because Idon't, I don't think
necessarily, you know, I think Ihave a pretty good gut.
Sometimes I think my guts prettygood, but then, you know,
sometimes it's, it's not, but Isay it's best when I, you know,
someone asked me, like, like,why do you know when there's a
good client opportunity? And Isaid, you know, that's, that's,
(08:12):
that's kind of where I, I amgood at that, you know, in terms
of my, my wife calls on myspidey sense, you know, I will,
I will fly across the world tomeet a client if I think this is
this is a great opportunity,
Rob Bata (08:25):
yeah, and I guess that's very much the kind of
thing that I do, although I'mnot sure that I can come as
quickly to a conclusion as youseem to be able to do. But for
me, a lot of what I do isactually tell people don't do
what you're thinking aboutdoing, because it's not right.
And in fact, there's an articlethat I I get published and
(08:48):
republish from time to time thatI wrote some years ago titled
1515, ways to screw up yourinternational expansion. And one
of those is when you when youtry to do it on the back of one
or two lawyers or one or twoclients. It's the worst thing
that you can do. It's almostalways bound to fail. And so I
(09:10):
do get, I do get questions, ofcourse, now the questions are
coming in about India. Gee, it'sgoing to be great to be able to
go to it. Well, you know what? Ihappen to be a little bit of a
naysayer on that, because Ithink that right now, although
India is a fantastic market, andultimately, it'll be great, but
so far, what the what the BarCouncil of India has published,
(09:33):
I think it looks like there arelots of open questions, and it's
going to take a long, long time,and there's going to have to be
a good example is
Unknown (09:39):
Korea. You know, how many US or European firms are
making money in Korea? I don'tknow the
Rob Bata (09:44):
answer. Yeah. Well, they've, they've, they've eased,
they've eased the requirementsto Korea. So a couple of firms
recently have gone, gone inthere, Asher's, then Watson,
parle and Williams under, undera new kind of system. But yeah,
it's hard to make money, ofcourse. It's hard to make money
in China too, but, but that's awhole different ballgame. But
(10:06):
it's, it seems to me that interms of strategy, what what you
do, which is keeping your earopen and keeping your eyes open
a lot, but not but, but notalways your mouth. So in other
words, just getting a lot ofdata points. I think that's
really what an outsideconsultant to a law firm needs
(10:26):
to do. They need to be able tounderstand what the firm's needs
are, what the firm's goals are,what their aspirations are, and
not just guess at it, not justlook at it, look at their
website, and find that they havethe greatest culture in the
world, and then they do thisthen and the other so
Unknown (10:43):
it's an education, back to our original, original
points. We said, you know, how,like, what's the role of non
lawyers? It's like, you know, Idon't have a practice, you know,
in terms of, you know, whatever,whatever strategy the firm,
like, I explained, I don't makethe firm strategy I you know, I
advise. I tell them, you know,this is, I love working for
lockers, because it's, I workfor the people that own the
(11:04):
firm, and they make, theydecide, they're the decider. I'm
the executor, to some extent.
And, you know, but it and I, butmy livelihood is not dependent
upon what strategy we take.
Because, you know, in terms of,I don't mean I don't have an
Indian practice, I don't have a,you know, whatever the strategy.
So that gives me the benefit tosay to people, this is what I
(11:25):
think you should be doing. Thisis like, this is what makes
sense, as opposed to, you know,thinking about, well, how is
that going to impact my life,you know, the next, whereas I
think partners say, Well, I havean insurance, you know, you
know, insurance defensepractice. And, you know, we're
thinking about getting on theinsurance defense business. And
that means, like, Oh, great.
That means I have to findanother firm to to, you know, go
after or, you know, switch mypractice, or change something
(11:49):
up. You know, I think havinghaving someone like me who
doesn't have a practice makesthose kind of conversations, you
know, easier to have, because,you know, I don't necessarily
have that kind of skin of thegame, but someone that has, you
know, decade of or two, coupledecades of building the legal
pedigree,
Rob Bata (12:11):
and I think that gives you a lot of freedom. And I
think in many ways that So,again, that's a certain kind of
similarity with with what I do.
Because, yes, although mybusiness is dependent on what my
what my clients ultimately do atthe same time, I don't
personally have skin in the gameand what you know, my clients
(12:32):
can take my advice or leave myadvice, and it's all the same.
It's all the same to me. And ofcourse, I appreciate working
with clients, and I appreciategetting paid for what I do, but,
you know, I'm a consultant, so,so it works out just fine.
Unknown (12:51):
And I think there's a there's a there's a mentality
the legal business. There's thisherd mentality, the legal
business that I think you guys,I'm sure, fight against, in
terms of, everyone says, Okay,this is what we have to do. This
is what the flavor of the monthis. We need to push for. But the
problem is, you know, likeanything else, you know, if, if
you do, everyone does the samething, then you know, everybody
(13:13):
looks exactly the same,everyone's operations, you're
going to cut out what, what theadvantages were for doing that.
And so, how do you do thingsdifferently? My my former boss
or former managing partner,Andrew Glen, sure. You know, he
woke up one day or and startedscrolling through all the the am
law, 100 websites, and herealized at some point in time
(13:37):
that he couldn't tell themapart, including our own. And he
said, and he, you know, forbetter or worse, he said, I want
something totally different. Andso we went and we hired a, a,
you know, consultant that didn'thave nothing to do with websites
and designer and everythingelse. And so for a couple years,
we actually had a amazingly kindof very cutting edge website,
(14:00):
you know, you know, we were inthe right direction. I think
some, some we're not as cuttingedge as we were then. I think we
have a great website and greatbrand and everything else. But,
you know, we had a briefincident of going the different
direction, which was, which was,was pretty cool. And we're
continuing to try to do that. Ithink our new website is
(14:21):
fantastic. I'm really excitedabout that. We used to be your
website. But, you know, doingthings differently, I think, is,
is it is going to have to bebrave in this business
Rob Bata (14:32):
you do bravery is not, you know, in a partnership,
being brave is not always thebest thing, Partially, partially
partially for good reasons. Imean, you know, it's a
collaborative enterprise at itsbest, and so, so you don't want
to be the outlier, but you dowant to be somebody who, who
brings good ideas to the table.
Unknown (14:53):
And part of it like we decided that, you know, we
jumped off the bandwagon ofopening up office. Is all over
the world because, you know, wedecided that that wasn't
necessarily our strongest suit,you know, that we didn't have to
have offices and lots of placesto have an international
presence and do work there. AndI, you know, I thought it's a
(15:16):
lot harder. I think it's like,frankly, harder, you know, it's
a lot of work for me to developrelationships with the best
firms in these geographies. Butit's a different approach. It's
a different strategy, and it'ssomething that we have, you
know, there's pluses andminuses. We give up certain
things to do that. But the ideais that we, you know, that we
have decided that that's, youknow, that's the approach we
(15:36):
want to take. And, you know,trying to ruthlessly and
rigorously executed. You know,takes discipline. You know, just
like, just like being an Ironmantriathlete, takes discipline.
You have to work at it. You haveto be, you know, constantly at
it and thinking about it. And,you know, getting getting ready
for it, and but it is, it is astrategy
Rob Bata (16:00):
the global legal market, I think, isn't all about
putting flags everywhere. Infact, there's one firm that has
put flags everywhere, which Ijust think isn't really a firm
anymore. It's a completelydifferent kind of animal, but,
but having said that, I thinkit's less about do you have
(16:23):
offices here and there, or doyou have a presence here or
there, or are you able to workyour relationships? I think it's
about the belief in globalglobalization. And I think as
long as we understand, no matterwhat the headwinds are, no
matter what's happened, whathappens, you know, with, you
know, political points of viewabout globalism, or about trade
(16:45):
wars and so on and so forth. Ithink the recognition that all
business is ultimately global,and therefore you have to
approach it in some way that initself, requires creating a
strategy. And you just describedyour firm strategy. And I think
that's that's really, reallyimportant. Sometimes strategies
change for for various reasons.
The certainly, the COVID periodsaw a lot of people change their
(17:07):
strategies, not necessarily forthe better, sometimes for the
better. In Asia, you know, therewas a widespread sort of exodus
from Hong Kong. Not a lot ofpeople are going into China
these days for all kinds ofreasons, but. But the reality
is, as long as you recognize thefact that you do need to serve
(17:31):
your clients, a business firmdoesn't have a single client,
unless there may be a family lawclient that doesn't do business
internationally. So am law 100am law 200 NLJ 250 whatever
every one of those firms is, infact, International. It's a
(17:52):
question of how you handle it,and you have a strategy I and I
think it's exactly the peoplewho deal with strategy that I
deal with, it could be somebodylike you. It can be a management
committee. It could be a senioror partner, but it's somebody
who thinks through these things.
(18:12):
And that's what, that's whatworks. I
Unknown (18:14):
would, I would think it would go even below the amla 200
I mean, every firm, yeah,because a lot of the referrals I
get are, you know, more localfirms that have an international
issue that comes up. And, youknow, part of my skill is able
to keep them involved to someextent, you know, because I want
(18:35):
them, you know, maybe you know,they have the relationship with
the client. But if they now havesome kind of international piece
or some more sophisticatedpiece, they're not, you know,
they're not, you know, able todo, you know, that's, that's
kind of where, where my rolecomes in. And I've been pretty
successful at working with, youknow, much smaller firms that,
you know, would not considerthemselves being national but
(18:56):
they now have an internationalproblem or an international
opportunity, right? Right? Howdo they? How do they deal with
that? And it's by interfacingwith folks like me.
Rob Bata (19:06):
Yeah, that's key. Can I
Unknown (19:10):
do before we break I do have a question for David, and
could have talked aboutinterfacing with people like
you. What you do for your firmis you've been successful at it
for many years. Is, is anexception in terms of the in
(19:32):
terms of the wider, large lawuniverse, there's not a lot of
people. There's more every day.
There's not a lot of people whoare doing what you're doing and
and I, I'm, I'm, you know, I'mwondering, you know, if you had
your crystal ball, what what itlooks like, what we're going to
(19:53):
see in the next five years,about as much as I can ever look
for. Worked, but five years interms of the role that you have
and where that how those rolesare going to form in other
firms, or if they're going toform, and if there's maybe a
condition proceeding that needsto be there for roles like yours
perform, I do see them as beingessential. I do not believe that
(20:16):
the that law firm growth cancontinue if we're, if we're
relying entirely upon thepartners to be the, the engine
of business development within afirm.
Yeah. I mean, I think, I thinkyou're going to see that and
grow. I think there will be moreindustry specific. So I think
(20:38):
they, you know, I think I'm abit of an outlier, and that, I
kind of came from moregeneralist, traditional law firm
marketing background, and kindof morphed into this role. I
think you'll see less of that,and you'll see more of people
that who were doing businessdevelopment, more generally in
an industry, and are applyingtheir relationships, their
contacts with, you know, in alaw firm environment, I think
(21:03):
that the I think so I see, I'dsee the growth will be kind of
very, more industry focused.
You'll see people that do that,you know, but again, there are
challenges. It's not an easyrole. I mean, I think the idea
that you know, that you know,being in an environment, you're
still, to some extent, a secondclass citizen, because you're
not a lawyer. And I've workedwith people in the past that
(21:24):
find that to be impossible toovercome that challenge, that
you know, that there's you know,even though you might be a
lawyer, but once you, once youI'm sorry, guys, once you decide
you're not practicing lawanymore, you're like me. You're
at the same, the same level. Andthat's a bit challenging, I
think, the fact that, you know,at least in America, we can't
share fees with non lawyers, soyou don't necessarily have the
(21:47):
column that they have. And I'dsay a lot of sales people live
and die by that. They want tosee what, what money they
brought in, and how they broughtit in, things like that. The
other part is that they have tobe like, you know, you know, a
lot of successful salespeopleare really type A personalities,
and they want to be the smartestperson in the room. And, you
know, I sometimes I explain topeople, you know, I, I sometimes
(22:08):
aspire to be the dumbest personin the room. Because if I'm
bringing in, you know, theexperts, the lawyers, they're
the, they're the rock stars, youknow, I might I might have the
rock star hair and beard, but inthe and the stones t shirt, but,
you know, they're the smartones. You know, my job is just
to make sure that, you know, theeverything keeps, keeps going,
(22:30):
going forward. And you know,that's sometimes challenging.
You have to keep your mouthshut. You have to, you know, you
know, not opine on everything.
And you know, let the let thepeople do their work. So I think
the so there are somechallenges. I think that it's
not a it's not an easy job. It'snot something you can go
directly from industry into thelaw firm environment. But I
(22:53):
think it's as, you know, we see,we have some successful
examples, and we'll have more ofthem, but I do see them more
around, you know, eitherindustries or ecosystems or
things like that, much less, youknow, kind of more generalist
like I am.
Rob Bata (23:08):
Yeah, I think that you are, in fact, unique in many
ways. And I'm not talking aboutthat. I'm not talking about the
hairstyle. What you do is, is,actually, I think, very rare and
and I, you know, I know a lot ofpeople in the business who do
what you do, but but don't dowhat you do. And so that's why I
(23:32):
said it's particularly apleasure that we've been able to
have this time with you and thento get a better understanding of
how you work and how youinteract with, with, with other
non lawyer executives and andhow you see the, how you
approach the the internationallegal market, and we, I think, I
think
Unknown (23:51):
there's a lot of opportunity. I think that you
know, as you know every I thinkevery firm has to figure out
what their approach to handlingthe globe is, you know, do they
want to open up offices? And ifso, where sometimes I think
that's a good idea. They shouldopen offices if there's if it
makes sense to do so. Do theywant to be involved with a with
(24:12):
a network, you know? So, like,we're involved. We've been
involved for the last 24 yearswith the terralex network. And,
you know, we're very involved inthat. Love it. You know, lots of
good relationship, but it's not,it's not our only global
strategy. And, or do you want todevelop your own network, your
own kind of best friendsnetwork, and, and maybe all
those things are not mutuallyexclusive. You can, you can have
(24:36):
a belong to network, have yourown network, or have offices. We
do some of that. So I think theidea is that, but, but kind of
making that work, I thinkrequires, like, you know, folks
like you all to help firms thinkthrough that, and, you know,
recognize, like, what works,what doesn't work. You know,
should we have a marinestructure? Should we have, you
know, how should we deal withthis, and then kind of ironing
(24:59):
out some. The, you know, what'sthe compensation issues, you
know? Why should we be thinkingabout this, or in the, you know,
the nitty gritty of, like,where, where we should open up?
I get a lot of questions like,why don't we have an office in
Germany? And I explained, well,where in Germany would you like
to, I guess, to open an office?
Because I can give you a few, Ican give you a few reasons why?
No, but I'm saying, like, youknow, it's not like, you know
(25:21):
France, you know, where Paris iskind of a natural place, if you
your international firm andyou're going to France, you know
Paris, you know, probably makesless sense. Or England, London,
you know, Germany is a morecomplex and, you know, economy,
there's lots of different, youknow, all the different cities
there have different industrialfocuses and economic focuses and
things like that. And
Rob Bata (25:44):
you know, it's not, in fact, if you want to be in
Germany, you have to be in atleast two cities. There's just
no getting around that. Sothat's, that's a whole other
complication, which is why somany foreign firms really don't
do very well in Germany. Some,some have succeeded, but it's,
it's difficult, but you'reright. They're all all those
nitty gritty issues to to thinkthrough, and that's why, that's
(26:07):
why there are experts in houseas well as outside consultants.
That's and
Unknown (26:12):
they need folks like, you know, to help them glue, put
it together. It's one thing justto open up an output or start a
practice or whatever. I thinkthat the fact of, you know,
putting the glue together andmaking it all work, I think is
really challenging, because Iwork with a lot of firms that,
you know, you know, essentially,they're a firm, but you know,
(26:33):
their international offices andtheir international
relationships do notinterconnect with, you know,
each one, and frankly, sometimesI feel like I know them better
than they know themselves.
Rob Bata (26:47):
Yep, certainly, certainly happens with quite a
few firms. The idea of beingLone Rangers out there and not
really connected to headquartersof the rest of it, and vice
versa, where people feel so wehave an office in Kazakhstan,
but I don't even know aboutthem. Why didn't anybody tell
me? How are you gonna sell that?
Unknown (27:07):
Like I said, there are ways to make referrals, and
there are ways to makereferrals. So you can say, Yes,
we have an office in Kazakh theydo oil and gas, and they're
fantastic. And I can introduceyou to a Sergey who heads up
that office. And you know, he'she's really a terrific guy. He
went to school in Oxford, so hisEnglish skills are terrific.
And, you know, try set up theZoom call tomorrow.
Rob Bata (27:27):
Exactly. That's the way to go. We learned a lot from
you.
Unknown (27:33):
David, thank you, David, thank you. Indeed. You.
Robert, welcome to GMT, the podcast for globally minded
(00:05):
law firm leaders with your host.
Robert Bata, principal ofWarwick place legal and Murray
Coffey, principal of M Coffey,between them, Rob and Murray
have about three quarters of acentury's experience working
with some of the most notablelaw firms on the planet. This
podcast is designed to helpthose law firm leaders tasked
with growth make great decisionsabout whether and how to
(00:28):
implement cross border expansionfor their firms and what it
takes to succeed. And now parttwo of GMTs conversation with
David Kaufman, the Director ofGlobal strategies at Nixon
Peabody,
Rob Bata (00:47):
I'd like to turn a little bit to the idea of
international strategy andinternational business
development, and also in termsof not just bringing into the
business, but also looking atopportunities and perhaps law
firm expansion, which is reallywhat I do, and cross border
mergers and so forth. So one ofthe ways that I do my job is I
(01:16):
try to keep track of friends,and I look at economies, and I
look at political situations andso forth. So in one sense, you
could say that I kind of sitback and and try to absorb as
much information as I can. Butin reality, what I really do is
(01:36):
my clients come to me, or Imight come to my clients, or
prospective clients and say, Youdo x, and that's something that
you could do a lot more and lotbetter, and do much more for
your clients if you had apresence in or if you had a
relationship in such and such acountry. So when a client comes
(01:58):
to me and says, but we reallyneed a little bit more of
development and clientele in anarea that we're now really
getting into when we have, youknow this person and that person
who got great expertise in it,but they're not really sure
about how to how to make more ofit. I can say this is what that
(02:22):
practice would mean in such andsuch a country, or this is who's
doing it somewhere else in theworld. And sometimes, to use the
points you guys made, this iswhat you need to do. This is
what you need to be doing. Sowhile, on the one hand, I kind
of sit back and try to trackwhat's going on in the world.
(02:45):
The point of that really is forme to be able to respond very
quickly to clients, but at thesame time also kind of bide my
time. You know, I will take avery long time to think about,
is this firm going to beinterested, because someday they
will want to be in Luxembourg,but not right now, but I'm going
(03:07):
to call them in 16 months,
Unknown (03:09):
a single attorney. I learned a long time ago, a
single attorney is not a is nota practice. Make this because
and and and hope is not astrategy. And there's a lot of
times when, when lawyers willsay, you know, you know, we're
going to have this practicebecause that's because that's
what you want to do. Yeah, I getit. I understand that's what you
(03:30):
want to do. But it doesn't meanthat we that we have a practice
in this geography. It doesn'tmean that we have a practice in
this area, you know, let's Whoelse, who else can we get be
interested in doing this? Youknow? Because, you know, I've
seen over the years at our firmand other firms, you start, you
know people, you start withgreat fanfare, and then things
either peter out, don't happen,or that person loses interest,
(03:52):
or that person leaves, and then,like, what are you left? So I
think that an idea is that youknow, for you to put that kind
of firm weight behind somethingyou really need to have, you
know, a broad team of people.
You need to have commitment. Youneed to have, you know, in some
extent, you need to have a planB, a Plan C. You have to figure
out, like, Okay, this goesreally well, you know what? Who
else we have to work with? Andit's just, you know, it's the
(04:14):
same thing, like, when I workwith companies that are coming
into the US, you know, I alwaystell them, I said, let's think
about, like, what's the worstcase scenario? What's the best
case scenario? And, you know, inthe worst case scenario is, you
know, maybe having a jointventure is not a good idea,
because if the joint venturegoes south, you know, then
you're out of luck in the US. Somaybe we think about a joint
venture in Florida, and then wegive them Florida to do it,
(04:38):
whatever. So I think it's thesame kind of idea.
Rob Bata (04:42):
So how do you how do you spot an opportunity? You
know, in your case, you seethings happen, and you conclude
that there's an opportunity.
What do you do? And let me giveyou an example, because I know
this is a. Example that thatyou've, you've dealt with, let's
say there's some current bankingcrisis, or perhaps something
(05:06):
having to do with cryptocurrencymeltdown, or anything like that.
What's, what's the thoughtprocess that runs through your
mind? Well, the
Unknown (05:16):
advantage I have is that I deal with a lot, you
know, I'm dealing with the realtime. I'm dealing with a huge
amount of information points. Sothe idea that, you know, I have,
you know, we'll have huge amountof contact and interaction if
something's going on, you know,I'm hearing it from our own
attorneys. I'm here forcompliance and hearing from
(05:36):
referral sources, you know. Solike when Silicon Valley Bank
went down, you know, I got tonsof calls because, you know,
I've, for some people, theythink of it. I'm their guy in
San Francisco. So it's like, ohmy god, I'm going to call David
and see what's happening. And sowhat I've learned is that
oftentimes, you know, that thoseare, you know, I don't take
those as points where I kind ofshow off and say, like, I know
(05:57):
something, because, you know, atthe beginning of that, I really
didn't have that much to say.
But what I did do, you know, myand my grandmother, she had
this, this great piece ofadvice. She said, You know, you
have two years and two eyes andone mouth, use it. Use those
things and and so I listened.
And so I it was interesting,because I'd said by Saturday
(06:21):
night, I told my wife, bySaturday night, I had a pretty
good idea what was going tohappen, because I talked to
enough people from variouspoints of the world and, you
know, government, you knowbusiness, you know outside the
US, inside the US, that I kindof figured that the you know,
that there would be a backstopin some way, and that, You know
exactly I went to bed Saturdaynight, knowing what, exactly,
(06:43):
what happened on Sunday, Sundayevening. So I think, you know,
and then kind of advise peoplealong the way what I was
thinking when it comes toadopting a different strategy,
or thinking about, how do you,how do you change the business,
you know, example, thatunfortunately, was COVID, in
terms that the I was, you know,I saw the COVID pandemic given
(07:07):
my work in China, you know,ahead of time. I mean, I was
quoted in the San FranciscoChronicle talking about when
they closed Wuhan down. And, youknow, I kind of explained that
this is, this is an example whatit could be, it's Wuhan today,
but it could be other places,you know, in the future. And I
was dealing with it for manyweeks before it actually hit in
(07:29):
the US. And therefore the, Ithink that's why the firm, you
know, kind of pointed me thehead of our, our Coronavirus
Response Team, and the idea thatwe, you know, I knew what we'd
have to be doing. I knew what,where it was coming based upon
the fact that I'd seen it happenin China previously. So I think
you have to use various datapoints. You have to figure out
what's going on, but, but real,live information, and then, you
(07:51):
know, be a little, you know, askquestions, think, listen, look
and be skeptical. Because Idon't, I don't think
necessarily, you know, I think Ihave a pretty good gut.
Sometimes I think my guts prettygood, but then, you know,
sometimes it's, it's not, but Isay it's best when I, you know,
someone asked me, like, like,why do you know when there's a
good client opportunity? And Isaid, you know, that's, that's,
(08:12):
that's kind of where I, I amgood at that, you know, in terms
of my, my wife calls on myspidey sense, you know, I will,
I will fly across the world tomeet a client if I think this is
this is a great opportunity,
Rob Bata (08:25):
yeah, and I guess that's very much the kind of
thing that I do, although I'mnot sure that I can come as
quickly to a conclusion as youseem to be able to do. But for
me, a lot of what I do isactually tell people don't do
what you're thinking aboutdoing, because it's not right.
And in fact, there's an articlethat I I get published and
(08:48):
republish from time to time thatI wrote some years ago titled
1515, ways to screw up yourinternational expansion. And one
of those is when you when youtry to do it on the back of one
or two lawyers or one or twoclients. It's the worst thing
that you can do. It's almostalways bound to fail. And so I
(09:10):
do get, I do get questions, ofcourse, now the questions are
coming in about India. Gee, it'sgoing to be great to be able to
go to it. Well, you know what? Ihappen to be a little bit of a
naysayer on that, because Ithink that right now, although
India is a fantastic market, andultimately, it'll be great, but
so far, what the what the BarCouncil of India has published,
(09:33):
I think it looks like there arelots of open questions, and it's
going to take a long, long time,and there's going to have to be
a good example is
Unknown (09:39):
Korea. You know, how many US or European firms are
making money in Korea? I don'tknow the
Rob Bata (09:44):
answer. Yeah. Well, they've, they've, they've eased,
they've eased the requirementsto Korea. So a couple of firms
recently have gone, gone inthere, Asher's, then Watson,
parle and Williams under, undera new kind of system. But yeah,
it's hard to make money, ofcourse. It's hard to make money
in China too, but, but that's awhole different ballgame. But
(10:06):
it's, it seems to me that interms of strategy, what what you
do, which is keeping your earopen and keeping your eyes open
a lot, but not but, but notalways your mouth. So in other
words, just getting a lot ofdata points. I think that's
really what an outsideconsultant to a law firm needs
(10:26):
to do. They need to be able tounderstand what the firm's needs
are, what the firm's goals are,what their aspirations are, and
not just guess at it, not justlook at it, look at their
website, and find that they havethe greatest culture in the
world, and then they do thisthen and the other so
Unknown (10:43):
it's an education, back to our original, original
points. We said, you know, how,like, what's the role of non
lawyers? It's like, you know, Idon't have a practice, you know,
in terms of, you know, whatever,whatever strategy the firm,
like, I explained, I don't makethe firm strategy I you know, I
advise. I tell them, you know,this is, I love working for
lockers, because it's, I workfor the people that own the
(11:04):
firm, and they make, theydecide, they're the decider. I'm
the executor, to some extent.
And, you know, but it and I, butmy livelihood is not dependent
upon what strategy we take.
Because, you know, in terms of,I don't mean I don't have an
Indian practice, I don't have a,you know, whatever the strategy.
So that gives me the benefit tosay to people, this is what I
(11:25):
think you should be doing. Thisis like, this is what makes
sense, as opposed to, you know,thinking about, well, how is
that going to impact my life,you know, the next, whereas I
think partners say, Well, I havean insurance, you know, you
know, insurance defensepractice. And, you know, we're
thinking about getting on theinsurance defense business. And
that means, like, Oh, great.
That means I have to findanother firm to to, you know, go
after or, you know, switch mypractice, or change something
(11:49):
up. You know, I think havinghaving someone like me who
doesn't have a practice makesthose kind of conversations, you
know, easier to have, because,you know, I don't necessarily
have that kind of skin of thegame, but someone that has, you
know, decade of or two, coupledecades of building the legal
pedigree,
Rob Bata (12:11):
and I think that gives you a lot of freedom. And I
think in many ways that So,again, that's a certain kind of
similarity with with what I do.
Because, yes, although mybusiness is dependent on what my
what my clients ultimately do atthe same time, I don't
personally have skin in the gameand what you know, my clients
(12:32):
can take my advice or leave myadvice, and it's all the same.
It's all the same to me. And ofcourse, I appreciate working
with clients, and I appreciategetting paid for what I do, but,
you know, I'm a consultant, so,so it works out just fine.
Unknown (12:51):
And I think there's a there's a there's a mentality
the legal business. There's thisherd mentality, the legal
business that I think you guys,I'm sure, fight against, in
terms of, everyone says, Okay,this is what we have to do. This
is what the flavor of the monthis. We need to push for. But the
problem is, you know, likeanything else, you know, if, if
you do, everyone does the samething, then you know, everybody
(13:13):
looks exactly the same,everyone's operations, you're
going to cut out what, what theadvantages were for doing that.
And so, how do you do thingsdifferently? My my former boss
or former managing partner,Andrew Glen, sure. You know, he
woke up one day or and startedscrolling through all the the am
law, 100 websites, and herealized at some point in time
(13:37):
that he couldn't tell themapart, including our own. And he
said, and he, you know, forbetter or worse, he said, I want
something totally different. Andso we went and we hired a, a,
you know, consultant that didn'thave nothing to do with websites
and designer and everythingelse. And so for a couple years,
we actually had a amazingly kindof very cutting edge website,
(14:00):
you know, you know, we were inthe right direction. I think
some, some we're not as cuttingedge as we were then. I think we
have a great website and greatbrand and everything else. But,
you know, we had a briefincident of going the different
direction, which was, which was,was pretty cool. And we're
continuing to try to do that. Ithink our new website is
(14:21):
fantastic. I'm really excitedabout that. We used to be your
website. But, you know, doingthings differently, I think, is,
is it is going to have to bebrave in this business
Rob Bata (14:32):
you do bravery is not, you know, in a partnership,
being brave is not always thebest thing, Partially, partially
partially for good reasons. Imean, you know, it's a
collaborative enterprise at itsbest, and so, so you don't want
to be the outlier, but you dowant to be somebody who, who
brings good ideas to the table.
Unknown (14:53):
And part of it like we decided that, you know, we
jumped off the bandwagon ofopening up office. Is all over
the world because, you know, wedecided that that wasn't
necessarily our strongest suit,you know, that we didn't have to
have offices and lots of placesto have an international
presence and do work there. AndI, you know, I thought it's a
(15:16):
lot harder. I think it's like,frankly, harder, you know, it's
a lot of work for me to developrelationships with the best
firms in these geographies. Butit's a different approach. It's
a different strategy, and it'ssomething that we have, you
know, there's pluses andminuses. We give up certain
things to do that. But the ideais that we, you know, that we
have decided that that's, youknow, that's the approach we
(15:36):
want to take. And, you know,trying to ruthlessly and
rigorously executed. You know,takes discipline. You know, just
like, just like being an Ironmantriathlete, takes discipline.
You have to work at it. You haveto be, you know, constantly at
it and thinking about it. And,you know, getting getting ready
for it, and but it is, it is astrategy
Rob Bata (16:00):
the global legal market, I think, isn't all about
putting flags everywhere. Infact, there's one firm that has
put flags everywhere, which Ijust think isn't really a firm
anymore. It's a completelydifferent kind of animal, but,
but having said that, I thinkit's less about do you have
(16:23):
offices here and there, or doyou have a presence here or
there, or are you able to workyour relationships? I think it's
about the belief in globalglobalization. And I think as
long as we understand, no matterwhat the headwinds are, no
matter what's happened, whathappens, you know, with, you
know, political points of viewabout globalism, or about trade
(16:45):
wars and so on and so forth. Ithink the recognition that all
business is ultimately global,and therefore you have to
approach it in some way that initself, requires creating a
strategy. And you just describedyour firm strategy. And I think
that's that's really, reallyimportant. Sometimes strategies
change for for various reasons.
The certainly, the COVID periodsaw a lot of people change their
(17:07):
strategies, not necessarily forthe better, sometimes for the
better. In Asia, you know, therewas a widespread sort of exodus
from Hong Kong. Not a lot ofpeople are going into China
these days for all kinds ofreasons, but. But the reality
is, as long as you recognize thefact that you do need to serve
(17:31):
your clients, a business firmdoesn't have a single client,
unless there may be a family lawclient that doesn't do business
internationally. So am law 100am law 200 NLJ 250 whatever
every one of those firms is, infact, International. It's a
(17:52):
question of how you handle it,and you have a strategy I and I
think it's exactly the peoplewho deal with strategy that I
deal with, it could be somebodylike you. It can be a management
committee. It could be a senioror partner, but it's somebody
who thinks through these things.
(18:12):
And that's what, that's whatworks. I
Unknown (18:14):
would, I would think it would go even below the amla 200
I mean, every firm, yeah,because a lot of the referrals I
get are, you know, more localfirms that have an international
issue that comes up. And, youknow, part of my skill is able
to keep them involved to someextent, you know, because I want
(18:35):
them, you know, maybe you know,they have the relationship with
the client. But if they now havesome kind of international piece
or some more sophisticatedpiece, they're not, you know,
they're not, you know, able todo, you know, that's, that's
kind of where, where my rolecomes in. And I've been pretty
successful at working with, youknow, much smaller firms that,
you know, would not considerthemselves being national but
(18:56):
they now have an internationalproblem or an international
opportunity, right? Right? Howdo they? How do they deal with
that? And it's by interfacingwith folks like me.
Rob Bata (19:06):
Yeah, that's key. Can I
Unknown (19:10):
do before we break I do have a question for David, and
could have talked aboutinterfacing with people like
you. What you do for your firmis you've been successful at it
for many years. Is, is anexception in terms of the in
(19:32):
terms of the wider, large lawuniverse, there's not a lot of
people. There's more every day.
There's not a lot of people whoare doing what you're doing and
and I, I'm, I'm, you know, I'mwondering, you know, if you had
your crystal ball, what what itlooks like, what we're going to
(19:53):
see in the next five years,about as much as I can ever look
for. Worked, but five years interms of the role that you have
and where that how those rolesare going to form in other
firms, or if they're going toform, and if there's maybe a
condition proceeding that needsto be there for roles like yours
perform, I do see them as beingessential. I do not believe that
(20:16):
the that law firm growth cancontinue if we're, if we're
relying entirely upon thepartners to be the, the engine
of business development within afirm.
Yeah. I mean, I think, I thinkyou're going to see that and
grow. I think there will be moreindustry specific. So I think
(20:38):
they, you know, I think I'm abit of an outlier, and that, I
kind of came from moregeneralist, traditional law firm
marketing background, and kindof morphed into this role. I
think you'll see less of that,and you'll see more of people
that who were doing businessdevelopment, more generally in
an industry, and are applyingtheir relationships, their
contacts with, you know, in alaw firm environment, I think
(21:03):
that the I think so I see, I'dsee the growth will be kind of
very, more industry focused.
You'll see people that do that,you know, but again, there are
challenges. It's not an easyrole. I mean, I think the idea
that you know, that you know,being in an environment, you're
still, to some extent, a secondclass citizen, because you're
not a lawyer. And I've workedwith people in the past that
(21:24):
find that to be impossible toovercome that challenge, that
you know, that there's you know,even though you might be a
lawyer, but once you, once youI'm sorry, guys, once you decide
you're not practicing lawanymore, you're like me. You're
at the same, the same level. Andthat's a bit challenging, I
think, the fact that, you know,at least in America, we can't
share fees with non lawyers, soyou don't necessarily have the
(21:47):
column that they have. And I'dsay a lot of sales people live
and die by that. They want tosee what, what money they
brought in, and how they broughtit in, things like that. The
other part is that they have tobe like, you know, you know, a
lot of successful salespeopleare really type A personalities,
and they want to be the smartestperson in the room. And, you
know, I sometimes I explain topeople, you know, I, I sometimes
(22:08):
aspire to be the dumbest personin the room. Because if I'm
bringing in, you know, theexperts, the lawyers, they're
the, they're the rock stars, youknow, I might I might have the
rock star hair and beard, but inthe and the stones t shirt, but,
you know, they're the smartones. You know, my job is just
to make sure that, you know, theeverything keeps, keeps going,
(22:30):
going forward. And you know,that's sometimes challenging.
You have to keep your mouthshut. You have to, you know, you
know, not opine on everything.
And you know, let the let thepeople do their work. So I think
the so there are somechallenges. I think that it's
not a it's not an easy job. It'snot something you can go
directly from industry into thelaw firm environment. But I
(22:53):
think it's as, you know, we see,we have some successful
examples, and we'll have more ofthem, but I do see them more
around, you know, eitherindustries or ecosystems or
things like that, much less, youknow, kind of more generalist
like I am.
Rob Bata (23:08):
Yeah, I think that you are, in fact, unique in many
ways. And I'm not talking aboutthat. I'm not talking about the
hairstyle. What you do is, is,actually, I think, very rare and
and I, you know, I know a lot ofpeople in the business who do
what you do, but but don't dowhat you do. And so that's why I
(23:32):
said it's particularly apleasure that we've been able to
have this time with you and thento get a better understanding of
how you work and how youinteract with, with, with other
non lawyer executives and andhow you see the, how you
approach the the internationallegal market, and we, I think, I
think
Unknown (23:51):
there's a lot of opportunity. I think that you
know, as you know every I thinkevery firm has to figure out
what their approach to handlingthe globe is, you know, do they
want to open up offices? And ifso, where sometimes I think
that's a good idea. They shouldopen offices if there's if it
makes sense to do so. Do theywant to be involved with a with
(24:12):
a network, you know? So, like,we're involved. We've been
involved for the last 24 yearswith the terralex network. And,
you know, we're very involved inthat. Love it. You know, lots of
good relationship, but it's not,it's not our only global
strategy. And, or do you want todevelop your own network, your
own kind of best friendsnetwork, and, and maybe all
those things are not mutuallyexclusive. You can, you can have
(24:36):
a belong to network, have yourown network, or have offices. We
do some of that. So I think theidea is that, but, but kind of
making that work, I thinkrequires, like, you know, folks
like you all to help firms thinkthrough that, and, you know,
recognize, like, what works,what doesn't work. You know,
should we have a marinestructure? Should we have, you
know, how should we deal withthis, and then kind of ironing
(24:59):
out some. The, you know, what'sthe compensation issues, you
know? Why should we be thinkingabout this, or in the, you know,
the nitty gritty of, like,where, where we should open up?
I get a lot of questions like,why don't we have an office in
Germany? And I explained, well,where in Germany would you like
to, I guess, to open an office?
Because I can give you a few, Ican give you a few reasons why?
No, but I'm saying, like, youknow, it's not like, you know
(25:21):
France, you know, where Paris iskind of a natural place, if you
your international firm andyou're going to France, you know
Paris, you know, probably makesless sense. Or England, London,
you know, Germany is a morecomplex and, you know, economy,
there's lots of different, youknow, all the different cities
there have different industrialfocuses and economic focuses and
things like that. And
Rob Bata (25:44):
you know, it's not, in fact, if you want to be in
Germany, you have to be in atleast two cities. There's just
no getting around that. Sothat's, that's a whole other
complication, which is why somany foreign firms really don't
do very well in Germany. Some,some have succeeded, but it's,
it's difficult, but you'reright. They're all all those
nitty gritty issues to to thinkthrough, and that's why, that's
(26:07):
why there are experts in houseas well as outside consultants.
That's and
Unknown (26:12):
they need folks like, you know, to help them glue, put
it together. It's one thing justto open up an output or start a
practice or whatever. I thinkthat the fact of, you know,
putting the glue together andmaking it all work, I think is
really challenging, because Iwork with a lot of firms that,
you know, you know, essentially,they're a firm, but you know,
(26:33):
their international offices andtheir international
relationships do notinterconnect with, you know,
each one, and frankly, sometimesI feel like I know them better
than they know themselves.
Rob Bata (26:47):
Yep, certainly, certainly happens with quite a
few firms. The idea of beingLone Rangers out there and not
really connected to headquartersof the rest of it, and vice
versa, where people feel so wehave an office in Kazakhstan,
but I don't even know aboutthem. Why didn't anybody tell
me? How are you gonna sell that?
Unknown (27:07):
Like I said, there are ways to make referrals, and
there are ways to makereferrals. So you can say, Yes,
we have an office in Kazakh theydo oil and gas, and they're
fantastic. And I can introduceyou to a Sergey who heads up
that office. And you know, he'she's really a terrific guy. He
went to school in Oxford, so hisEnglish skills are terrific.
And, you know, try set up theZoom call tomorrow.
Rob Bata (27:27):
Exactly. That's the way to go. We learned a lot from
you.
Unknown (27:33):
David, thank you, David, thank you. Indeed. You.
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