GMT welcomes our very special guest David Kaufman, Director of Global Strategies at Nixon Peabody LLP, for a wide-ranging discussion of all things business development, marketing, and global reach. We very quickly steered clear of higher math and had what can only be described as an epic chat with one of the sector's leading thinkers and doers. The conversation was so engaging we made it a two-part series. Episode one drops now, and we will drop episode two in the next few weeks. Make sure to subscribe so you do not miss a minute of David, Rob and Murray mixing it up. We are hitting our stride!
Contact Rob and Murray:
Robert C. Bata, Founder and Principal, WarwickPlace Legal
Email: rbata@warwickplace.com
Murray M. Coffey, Founder and Principal, M Coffey
Email: murray@mcoffey.net
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Robert, welcome to GMT, the podcast for globally minded
(00:05):
law firm leaders with your host.
Robert Bata, principal ofWarwick place legal and Murray
Coffey, principal of M Coffey,between them, Rob and Murray
have about three quarters of acentury's experience working
with some of the most notablelaw firms on the planet. This
podcast is designed to helpthose law firm leaders tasked
with growth make great decisionsabout whether and how to
(00:28):
implement cross border expansionfor their firms and what it
takes to succeed. And now. RobBata,
Rob Bata (00:42):
hello, everybody. This is our GMT podcast. We're
delighted to see you again. Thisis our is this? Did I put up 3/3
Well, it's going to be three andfour, because it's going to be a
two parter. We're very, veryprivileged to
Unknown (00:59):
have a we're going to have a matt primer at the end of
this as
Rob Bata (01:04):
well. We're gonna do a little calculus. And David,
you're gonna be helping. We are,in fact, very privileged to have
David Kaufman, who is, I think,known to probably more people in
the legal world than just aboutanyone else? David is the
Director of Global strategies,and has been for about 16 years
(01:27):
at Nixon Peabody, and he has along and distinguished career in
business development, but alsoas a businessman, we'll ask you
a little bit about that, aboutyour about how you got to all of
this. David, he's also a memberof the Board of Directors of the
San Francisco Chamber ofCommerce, and is very active
(01:48):
with lots of good deeds and gooddoings for San Francisco, both
in terms of trade and in termsof charitable activity. He's
also a an Iron Man andtriathlete and and an
indefatigable racer, and we'rejust delighted to welcome you
(02:10):
here. David, it's
Unknown (02:12):
great to be here. Thank you for the opportunity. It's a
Rob Bata (02:15):
pleasure. Absolutely you know this. This podcast is
really intended to give a senseof the interplay between the non
lawyer executive function andlaw firms, and what that means
(02:35):
for marketing, for businessdevelopment and for strategy.
And the reason that Murray and Ido this podcast really is to
show that there's a real need,not just for the the in house
executive, but at appropriatetimes, for the outside
consultant to collaborate onstrategy, to collaborate on
(02:59):
getting the right message out.
And so it seemed to us that youdo so much of what I've just
described in in your activitiesand in your role, that you would
be the perfect guest for us, andyou are our first guest on this
podcast. So welcome David. Thankyou.
Unknown (03:19):
I mean, I think I would agree with that. I mean, I think
the notion that I think I love,I love, I love my firm, I love
what I do, I love working withlawyers. Because I think lawyers
are just super smart, reallyamazing folks, but they're,
they're focused on solvingproblems for their clients and
dealing with, you know, theamazing challenges that the
(03:40):
clients have, or looking at theopportunities. Oftentimes it's
difficult to step back as a andview their their practices as
businesses. And then when you doagglomerate multiple practices
together, and you're now in alaw firm with hundreds of
lawyers, hundreds of partners,so then say to them, Well, now
you have to think about thestrategy, not just for your own
(04:02):
practice, but for all theseother businesses. I think it's,
I think it's very challenging,and I think that's that law
firms are, you know, been smartto to hire executives that have
business backgrounds, but alsoto hire consultants to assist
them as they're kind ofexamining, you know what? What
makes sense? What doesn't makesense. It's interesting.
Rob Bata (04:23):
In the case of both Mary and myself, um, we both, of
course, have legal backgrounds.
So Murray practiced in Chicago.
I have about 33 years ofpractice behind me, and I think
that that helps too, although Ialso feel that so much more of
the world opens up when youwhen, when you're not a lawyer,
but are able to think throughthings for a strictly business
(04:46):
and opportunistic perspective.
David, how did you, how did youcome to this position? You've,
you've done a lot of things inyour life. Just give us a very
short little bio. Well,
Unknown (04:58):
I grew. Been a small town Altoona, Pennsylvania, did
not have a very internationalkind of exposure. Growing up, we
were, I was born the same, sameyear that the Pennsylvania
Railroad went bankrupt, and wewere left with in my town was
built by the railroad, and thehome of the famous
Rob Bata (05:18):
Horseshoe Bend, isn't it? Horseshoe curve, the
horseshoe curve.
Unknown (05:22):
And so we had no, my dad I grew up, we had no, no
four lane highway, interstatehighway connection. Our airport
was even 20 miles out of town inthis little, tiny airport. So,
you know, I like to say I had apretty idyllic childhood, but
certainly it wasn't very, verycosmopolitan. Pittsburgh was the
big city, but you know, I lovemy I love my hometown, I love
(05:45):
the people I grew up with, and Ithink, I think it laid the
foundation for what I do today,but it did in a kind of an
interesting way that I'll getinto later. But I went to the
University of PennsylvaniaWharton school, got my
undergraduate and MBA degree.
Were involved in a couple otherbusinesses, mostly in the
apparel and the Bata business.
Part of those businesses took meto China, which was kind of
(06:06):
opened my ID eyes to, you know,the world beyond Altoona, beyond
America. And then I got to seethe rest of Asia. And at some
point in time, you know, my wifeand I decided to move to San
Francisco, and I was kind of,you know, floundering to find a
new career, because I didn'twant to go back into the apparel
and the fashion business,because that, you know, I tell
(06:29):
people, if you want to lose alot of money and make a lot of
money, get into that business.
So I was tired of someone takeso many chips off the table
there. And I found the legalbusiness, and I found that, you
know, my kind of, my what I did,which was, you know, essentially
selling could be translated intothe legal world. And the legal
(06:50):
world was just kind of openingup for that. So I did consulting
for a while, and then, and just,you know, as I was, you know,
kind of struggling to figure outwhat my next chapter. After
consulting with smalls andsolos, where I had a successful
practice, business development,started coming to four, and I
can still remember having aconversation before I had my
(07:11):
first got a real big law job,and, you know, talking to a
friend of mine who suggestedthat I apply for this job at
Deckard, the Decker law firm.
And I said, Well, you know, biglaw firms don't have people like
me working for them. And hesaid, Oh, it's changing. It's
changing now we're having thisthing called business
(07:32):
development, and they're lookingfor people just like you. I'm
not sure if anybody looked forpeople exactly like me, but that
was what he said. And so Istarted there and found out that
in reality, that was true, thatyou know, a lot of what I was
doing in my practice, you know,my consulting for small firms
(07:53):
and solos, it's all the samething. Lawyers all the same
challenges, have the sameissues. Went from Decker to a
melbourney, and then my boss atmelbourney came from the next
Peabody, and I've been here forit for since that time. And, you
know, I tell people I kind ofuntraditional, current
traditional role. I look alittle bit untraditional, or
(08:14):
quite a bit untraditional, but Iactually had fairly traditional
trajectory in terms of, youknow, I started off at the firm
and in my firms, runningRegional Marketing. And so I
think I pretty much have done,been responsible for the San
Francisco region, the Californiaregion. I ran all the regional
marketing for the firm. CO ledour business development
(08:37):
function. But over that time, Ipretty much I've done
traditional marketing for everypractice group at the firm, and
that's kind of led to what I dotoday, because about five or six
years ago, the firm, you know,asked me if I would consider,
you know, I'd always been veryinvolved in an international
practice. I helped set up ourChina, our China practice, if I
would spend all of my timefocused on international and
(09:01):
kind of move to a moreindividual contributor role and
spend more time, take the timethat I would have spent, kind of
internally, you know, focus onexternally, and work with
clients more directly. So atthis point, I would describe my
role as I spend most of my timeworking with clients that are
looking at based in the US.
They're looking to do businesssomewhere else in the world, and
clients all over the worldlooking to do business here in
(09:23):
the US. Part of that comes withme supporting our our attorneys
that have relationships, or justhave relationships, but also I
do have my own relationships,and people will work directly to
me, and I'll find the folks herethat to work with them, but it's
a it's an exciting place thatwe've seen a big uptick in
(09:44):
activity, even through thepandemic, in terms of people
looking to do internationalbusiness. I think that you know
the the quantity of deals thatwe see now, that you know when
you know it's very infrequentlythat you now have a company that
says, oh my, you know, we'regoing to buy a. Company in the
US, and a UK company or by acompany of the US. And that's
it, you know, now, almost everydeal has, okay, we're buying a
(10:05):
company in the US. We also havea company, you know, they also
have a Syrian Ireland and Italyand, you know, Singapore. So the
complexity of deals have becomemuch more profound, and that's
that's benefited me, becausethat's kind of where, where I
can come in to help, you know,shop, you know, work through
some of those issues. I've had100, like, 140 different
(10:27):
countries I work in and haveexperience working with a lot of
different different companies, alot of different industries. I'm
industry agnostic. Obviously,practice agnostic, and it's, you
know, exciting, exciting spot inthe legal ecosystem. For me,
Rob Bata (10:48):
it's, it's fantastic.
It's you really, you have aunique role, you know, people,
people talk about businessdevelopment. I think yours is
really on on a whole otherlevel. So I'd like to see if we
can kind of position what you doagainst the marketing function
and and I think Murray's goingto be able to address this very
(11:10):
well, because your yourfunction, just from a simplistic
point of view, is you'rebringing this stuff in marketing
messages out and messages alsointernally, because there's a
great deal of selling that youhave to do within a firm in
order to get people interestedor excited about an opportunity
(11:31):
and so forth. I think you dosome of that, but I think it's
also part of marketingmessaging. So do you do you see,
kind of the same way that yourwork is sort of inbound and
marketing is sort of outbound.
Unknown (11:50):
I wouldn't describe it that way. I think they're more
intertwined in terms of the, youknow, I think you need to have
the underpinnings of, you know,of of the, you know, the
structure to sell something, youknow. I mean, I couldn't do my
job without, you know, having,you know, a great marketing
function, which we have, youknow, so, like, if I'm, you
(12:12):
know, if there's a conference,and, you know, there's the the
IBA M and A conferences in NewYork in June, and I'm going to
have a breakfast, and, you know,I'm going to reach out to my
contacts, things like that. Butunless we had, you know, the
capacity to organize thebreakfast and put the, you know,
put the invitation together, andI have confidence that it's
(12:32):
going to be a great experiencefor people, and we have really
sophisticated event planners andthings like that, then, you
know, pretty much it would be ait'd be a disaster. Because, you
know, as much as I could do, I'dshow up and we'd have, you know,
cold Danish and cold Coffey and,you know, the
dreaded, the dreaded continentalbreakfast,
right? Exactly. So, I mean, Ithink that's a simplistic
(12:55):
version. There's so much morethey do. I mean, marketing, I'd
say, as all of us have done thisfor a long time. Today's
marketing is very different. Youknow, I can remember back in the
day, like when we would do analert. I know this is gonna be
shocking for some people. Wewould actually print the alert
out, and we would have to stuffit into envelopes, and we'd have
tools the clients and hope theywere opened and read it. You
(13:18):
know, nowadays it's amazing. Youknow. The other thing is the
pitches and proposals. I when Itried to talk to our our younger
colleagues, our more juniorcolleagues, about the idea that,
you know, I had to, like, youknow, stay overnight when I was
working on a big pitch, because,you know, it wasn't, there was
no PDFs. Weren't the thing.
Like, we had to actually printthem out, and you had to go
(13:39):
through, and I'm spiral bound,and you had to sit there at the
printer, and, oh, yeah. Andyou look at everything, and some
colleagues said to me, like,well, well, why did you say?
Because, what if they, what ifthe printer had screwed up and
didn't put the right page, put apage in for some other other,
you know, law firm, you know,that would be pretty bad. And
so, you know, so I think thingshave changed a lot, much more
(14:00):
sophisticated, you know, thecapacity, you know, social media
has changed the ball game. Thewebsite is such a, such a more
important tool, you know,sophisticated research, and
using the research function. SoI think, you know, I think it's,
really has changed. It's thewhole ball game. It's not just
marketing, it's marketing. It'smore traditional business
development, it'scommunications, it's library and
(14:22):
information, all that has towork together in a much more
complicated process than, youknow, I could even dreamed at
when I started this business 20years ago. Sure,
when I talked to my, you know,to my colleagues, the folks that
I'm working with on eithermanaging in the team or with
(14:45):
partners or people like yourselfwho are who are out trying to
sell. I think about, I try tosay, hey, look, there's a basket
of capabilities and servicesthat we have, and not everything
is going to be useful orrelevant to what it is. You're
doing at that moment. The skillis knowing where to kind of
reach into that basket. And Ithink that, you know, what I've
(15:07):
the development that I've seenis a greater sophistication. And
you know, people like yourself,David, Bring it. Bring this,
really, bring this to the tableto say, yeah, there's a, there's
a there's a number of differenttools that I have available to
me, and I need those to do myjob. So it's kind of, I like to
think of business developmentand marketing as as an alloy,
(15:29):
not an allied but an alloy, youknow, coming together, forming
something that's stronger thaneither one can do. Can be
separate and and so it's, andit's, it's fantastic when the
marketing team can integratewhat they're doing with what the
partners and people likeyourself are doing in terms of
(15:51):
business development. You know,the earned media is a great
example. Earned Media is afeeder, right? That is a that's
something that that is used tocan be used to help raise sort
of a profile or raise an issueout in the world, but you have
to know what you're doing withit to turn it into a business
(16:12):
development asset. And so youknow, the more that my folks on
my side of the fence are, areable to sit and talk through and
understand what's going on interms of the BD side and what,
what the firm is trying tostrategically sell, if you will.
I mean sales. We can talk sales.
It's sales. It is what it is andand it makes us better at what
(16:36):
we do, and I think that there'ssome shading that we can bring
to what you all are doing onyour side. And I don't think of
it asides. It's just we're allpart of a part of an enterprise.
And I never really sawseparations between myself and
BD and recruiting and evenattorney development. That's all
(16:57):
part of, that's all part ofmoving the enterprise forward,
or the Empire forward, to
Rob Bata (17:06):
reference your shirt.
So it's like David says, It'svery intertwined. But I love
that. I love that formulationthat you used Murray alloy, not
ally. That's a that's a greatone. I've never heard that one
before, and I think just made itup. Excellent. Well, you're
obviously a born marketer,
Unknown (17:30):
but David, I guess I would have a question for you,
and that is as you think aboutand this is in no way seeking
out a criticism of any marketingteams that you've ever worked
with. That said, Where are the,where are the most high value
touch points with the marketingteam that you have? And you
(17:50):
know, obviously, yes, the eventsteam has to get the breakfast
put together, but on a more, Ithink, on a more strategic and
maybe more tactical basis, whatare the touch points for, for
the BD teams, where the wherethe marketing teams can be more
valuable, and we can flip thataround as well, if you want. But
I'm very interested in hearingwhere I think it's,
(18:13):
I think the area where we'reseeing a lot of activity. And
I'm not a tech guy, even thoughI work with companies, I don't
understand a lot of themarketing technology, but the
ability to capture experience iscritically important, as you
know, I guess I don't want tosound so much like a dinosaur,
but I can remember when I was,you know, part of what I did was
to keep track of deals on Excelspreadsheets, right? Or, you
(18:37):
know, things like that. Youknow, that has to go away. I
mean, they, we have, we gotta,you know, pick a button. Say,
Okay, how many deals have wedone in Latin America involving,
you know, $3 billion that's thekind of information you that you
have to have. Those are tablestakes. And you have to have
that information. And, you know,you know, putting, putting
proposal materials together. Ithink that's less I think some
(18:58):
of that stuff is, is become lessimportant over the years. I
think that the expectation thatyou need to have, you know,
fancy decks, I think, is lesscritical than I'd say 20 years
ago, even. But you do have to,have to be able to, you know,
show calls in the right way. SoI think, you know, I do think
that that, you know, showingquals and and doing traditional
(19:21):
marketing in terms of proposalsand things like that, is, is
just as critical. Now, it's justdifferent.
And it's different, yeah, muchmore granular, yeah.
And people don't want to read,you know, huge you know, things
and effects about your firm isthey want to know, what have you
done in this space? What do youknow, who you work with, things
(19:42):
like that, and you know that'sthe stuff you need to have, and
you need to have it doneimmediately, because you know
that they're not going to waitfor it. So I think that's that's
the one area where I think it'simportant. I'd say the other
area that you know requiresadditional skills and experience
is social media. I think thatthe. The capacity to think about
(20:02):
social media in a professionalway. Because, you know, things I
got my joke is, if it doesn't,if you don't post it on social
media, it never happened. Youknow, you know, I felt like,
like my wife uses a fitnesstracker, like, I remember we
went walking one day, and she'slike, Oh my god, it's so
terrible. You still walk like,you know,
(20:25):
right? But it's, but it doesn'tshow up on her. Garmin,
yeah. But same thing, like, ifyou you know, you know, lawyers,
you know need to be, you know,don't have the time to be
influencers, but they reallyneed to be to some extent. So I
think the idea is, how do you,how do you help them position
themselves and use, you know,the media to amplify everything
(20:48):
you just like when you said, ifthere's an article like, you
know, who's going to read thatarticle? Well, you know, how can
you shine the spotlight on thatarticle? How can you, you know,
you know, move attention to it?
So I think, I think those arethe two areas where I think
traditional, traditionalmarketing is critically
important and will continue toplay a major role going forward.
To your point, I
Rob Bata (21:09):
thought when I first started seeing people, you know,
law firms and their marketingdepartments say, you know, we're
on Twitter, or here's ourLinkedIn, I thought, Well, gee,
who's who's going to who's goingto go on Twitter, or who's going
to go on LinkedIn? To look atthat, that seems like a waste of
time. And now that I look backon that, of course, that seems
(21:32):
ridiculous, because so muchjust, just look at the idea of
business cards. Of course, westill carry business cards from
time to time. Some of them aremore sophisticated than others.
They have QR codes and so forth.
But the first thing you do whenyou meet somebody, or right
after you meet them, if you haveany interest, is look them up on
LinkedIn and and then try tomake a connection and and so
(21:52):
forth. So it's become reallyingrained in the system. And
although lawyers, as you know,both of you are slow adopters.
That is now really all part ofthe ecosystem of the legal
market. And
Unknown (22:09):
I think Rob the the you know, to David, to your point
about, about using social mediaand earned media, etc, where I
see firms not I think the netsort of the next frontier, if
you will, for social media, andI want to talk about the quals
in a minute, but the next, thenext, the next phase, I think,
(22:32):
for social media, for law firms,for the larger firms, the
smaller firms, are actuallydoing a better, better job in
many ways on this is not used,not just looking at LinkedIn as
kind of the firm's virtualbillboard. Okay, this is what
happened. This is, this is whowent to this event, who this is
who got this award, etc, tostart to use it as a, as a, as
(22:55):
a, as a, as a tool for, forstaking out some, you know, some
intellectual space within thewithin the within our sector. A
great example I'll give you is awonderful firm out of out of New
York, a boutique friend of mineis, is the managing partner
(23:15):
there, and she identified, andthey're small. There may be 30
partners there, but sheidentified that that the net,
she felt like the next bigquestion phase, etc, in
Financial Litigation would wouldbe around the LIBOR transition,
which seems really in the kindof weeds stuff, but she's she
(23:36):
went on LinkedIn every week onThursdays and posted something
every Thursday afternoon aboutLIBOR, whether it was, you know,
the eight sentences that shepicked out of a Financial Times
article, or her own thoughts onwhat what she just heard about
LIBOR. And guess what happened?
They started getting all thecalls from Bloomberg and from
(23:58):
from Financial Times in the WallStreet Journal about libraries,
probablyfrom clients, probably from
clients too well. Andthen from clients, yeah, then
from clients, sure. Now theclient started that. Now the
clients, oh, okay, well, Anneand her firm are the LIBOR
experts, and they weren't LIBORexperts before Anne said, We're
LIBOR exports. Now they wereexperts in LIBOR, but the world
(24:18):
didn't know that they were LIBORexperts. So that's like, that's
I had the same a couple yearsago. I had a so called social
media expert tell me that hethought that I would that I he
not like my social my LinkedInfeed. He did not like it. I
thought it's cup of tea. I said,why? He said, Well, it's, it
seems very contrived. I waslike, oh, okay, why? Why do I
(24:41):
say? Why do you say that? Hesays, Well, I can so, why? So
what? You know, it seems likeyou really are, like, focusing
people's interest in trying tounderstand who you are. Like,
okay, well, who do you think?
And he said, I think you'rereally interested in
international work with theheavy emphasis on. China, you're
really involved in anythingevolving, like San Francisco,
(25:03):
with kind of economicdevelopment kind of made, and
you're like, you're this crazyathlete, dude, that's pretty
much, that's pretty much it. Iguess I do my job,
David, for the win.
I agree with you. It iscontrived. I'm glad you figured
it out. And if I posted a lot ofrandom shit, you know, that
(25:24):
probably would be bad. Would beworse, yeah,
before we hop off this topic, Iknow we're, you know, we're
getting a little little gear ontime here, I did want to circle
back to this idea, David of theof the quals, of being able to,
you know, being able to quicklyand with a level of granularity,
(25:44):
be able to say what we do, whowe do it, for, how often we've
done it, who are the people inour firm who are experts in it?
That's kind of the holy grail ofof where the marketing and BD
functions are kind ofintersecting, in my view, and
that to facilitate that, and tohave that information, and not
(26:07):
only have it but have it beaccurate, have it be instant.
You know, it should beinstantaneously available. Is
time consuming. Is relativelyexpensive in terms of in terms
of what law firms are spendingon, on Mark marketing technology
today, but I do think it's it'sabsolutely essential, and
(26:29):
there's a number of products outthere. But the point I want to
make is, I think that where I'vebeen successful in implementing
these kinds of programs is bygetting the business developers
at the firms that I was at tosay, we need this, this, this
is, this is what we need. It'snot just Murray saying we should
have this. It's David and Murraycoming together and saying to
(26:51):
the firm, we need this. We'rethis. We're we this will give us
a competitive advantage for alittle while. That window will
close and it'll be table stakes.
And if we get behind and wedon't have this as table Steven,
as table stakes as an offering,we're going to be in we're going
to be in trouble as a firm andand I think that those are the
kinds of discussions that thebusiness development team, the
(27:13):
marketing team, outsideconsultants who can say, this is
what your clients are lookingat, this is what they're this is
what They need to know. And, Imean, you know, Rob, when you
think about, you know, sort ofyour your your bread and butter,
which is, which is the, which isbringing firms and practices and
all together, being able to havethat answer, being able to have
that information at yourfingertips, makes your job. It
(27:35):
makes your job, I wouldn't sayeasier, but it certainly helps
you. It certainly helps you movethings forward. If you can say,
Yeah, I know what this firmdoes.
Good example, so on, I guessMonday or Tuesday, I got an
inquiry from a dear firm, a goodcolleague in another firm in the
(27:57):
UK, and they were interested inK through 12 education in the
US, and they said, Do you know,do you do that? And, you know, I
mean, because I I've been atthis firm for a long time, I
know everybody at the firm, likeI have, like, if I could
download my brain and do it, andso I was able to respond within
like, you know, 45 seconds, thefact that other person on email
(28:18):
is like, how did you know that?
Like, at the top of your head,you know, not only who the
person was, you know, what shedid, what Her background was,
everything else. And you know,it was able to go back
immediately and say, Yes, wehave the expert. You know, Tina
scanning is awesome. She used towork for, you know, the US
Department of Justice and theNew York State and everything
else. And she's just awesome.
(28:40):
And, you know, I think, and Itell people, there's a way to
make a referral, and there's away to make a referral, and so
you can make a referral quicklyand with specificity about, you
know, why this person is reallythe rock star, you know, I think
that that, in my, my experiencethat has, that has made a big, a
big difference, you know. Ithink the idea is that, you
know, there's, there's a line,like, once you start, you know,
(29:04):
kind of pitching, you've lostalready. So, like, if you could
get beyond the pitch, and it'slike, oh, this is the person you
have to use. Of course, this isthe first you have to use. And,
you know, so that, that's what Istrive for. But if you could
take, you know, what's in my, mylittle cop here, and turn it
into, you know, some way someoneelse could type in and say,
Okay, who do we know? Does youknow K through 12, right?
(29:27):
Education? And this is what wehave, you know, if you can, you
know, you might be replicate my,you know, my little synapses,
but you probably could good, youknow, you'll, you'll do a pretty
good job.
Yeah, I can be done.
Rob Bata (29:42):
That's a really important skill. And I have to
say that your point about ifyou're still pitching you've
lost it, is really crucial. Andfrankly, I find that true in my
business, too. And.
Unknown (30:00):
That concludes part one of our discussion with David
Kaufman, the Director of Globalstrategies at Nixon Peabody,
please stay tuned for part two,which will air shortly, and
subscribe so that you can getnotice of all of GMTs podcasts
you
Robert, welcome to GMT, the podcast for globally minded
(00:05):
law firm leaders with your host.
Robert Bata, principal ofWarwick place legal and Murray
Coffey, principal of M Coffey,between them, Rob and Murray
have about three quarters of acentury's experience working
with some of the most notablelaw firms on the planet. This
podcast is designed to helpthose law firm leaders tasked
with growth make great decisionsabout whether and how to
(00:28):
implement cross border expansionfor their firms and what it
takes to succeed. And now. RobBata,
Rob Bata (00:42):
hello, everybody. This is our GMT podcast. We're
delighted to see you again. Thisis our is this? Did I put up 3/3
Well, it's going to be three andfour, because it's going to be a
two parter. We're very, veryprivileged to
Unknown (00:59):
have a we're going to have a matt primer at the end of
this as
Rob Bata (01:04):
well. We're gonna do a little calculus. And David,
you're gonna be helping. We are,in fact, very privileged to have
David Kaufman, who is, I think,known to probably more people in
the legal world than just aboutanyone else? David is the
Director of Global strategies,and has been for about 16 years
(01:27):
at Nixon Peabody, and he has along and distinguished career in
business development, but alsoas a businessman, we'll ask you
a little bit about that, aboutyour about how you got to all of
this. David, he's also a memberof the Board of Directors of the
San Francisco Chamber ofCommerce, and is very active
(01:48):
with lots of good deeds and gooddoings for San Francisco, both
in terms of trade and in termsof charitable activity. He's
also a an Iron Man andtriathlete and and an
indefatigable racer, and we'rejust delighted to welcome you
(02:10):
here. David, it's
Unknown (02:12):
great to be here. Thank you for the opportunity. It's a
Rob Bata (02:15):
pleasure. Absolutely you know this. This podcast is
really intended to give a senseof the interplay between the non
lawyer executive function andlaw firms, and what that means
(02:35):
for marketing, for businessdevelopment and for strategy.
And the reason that Murray and Ido this podcast really is to
show that there's a real need,not just for the the in house
executive, but at appropriatetimes, for the outside
consultant to collaborate onstrategy, to collaborate on
(02:59):
getting the right message out.
And so it seemed to us that youdo so much of what I've just
described in in your activitiesand in your role, that you would
be the perfect guest for us, andyou are our first guest on this
podcast. So welcome David. Thankyou.
Unknown (03:19):
I mean, I think I would agree with that. I mean, I think
the notion that I think I love,I love, I love my firm, I love
what I do, I love working withlawyers. Because I think lawyers
are just super smart, reallyamazing folks, but they're,
they're focused on solvingproblems for their clients and
dealing with, you know, theamazing challenges that the
(03:40):
clients have, or looking at theopportunities. Oftentimes it's
difficult to step back as a andview their their practices as
businesses. And then when you doagglomerate multiple practices
together, and you're now in alaw firm with hundreds of
lawyers, hundreds of partners,so then say to them, Well, now
you have to think about thestrategy, not just for your own
(04:02):
practice, but for all theseother businesses. I think it's,
I think it's very challenging,and I think that's that law
firms are, you know, been smartto to hire executives that have
business backgrounds, but alsoto hire consultants to assist
them as they're kind ofexamining, you know what? What
makes sense? What doesn't makesense. It's interesting.
Rob Bata (04:23):
In the case of both Mary and myself, um, we both, of
course, have legal backgrounds.
So Murray practiced in Chicago.
I have about 33 years ofpractice behind me, and I think
that that helps too, although Ialso feel that so much more of
the world opens up when youwhen, when you're not a lawyer,
but are able to think throughthings for a strictly business
(04:46):
and opportunistic perspective.
David, how did you, how did youcome to this position? You've,
you've done a lot of things inyour life. Just give us a very
short little bio. Well,
Unknown (04:58):
I grew. Been a small town Altoona, Pennsylvania, did
not have a very internationalkind of exposure. Growing up, we
were, I was born the same, sameyear that the Pennsylvania
Railroad went bankrupt, and wewere left with in my town was
built by the railroad, and thehome of the famous
Rob Bata (05:18):
Horseshoe Bend, isn't it? Horseshoe curve, the
horseshoe curve.
Unknown (05:22):
And so we had no, my dad I grew up, we had no, no
four lane highway, interstatehighway connection. Our airport
was even 20 miles out of town inthis little, tiny airport. So,
you know, I like to say I had apretty idyllic childhood, but
certainly it wasn't very, verycosmopolitan. Pittsburgh was the
big city, but you know, I lovemy I love my hometown, I love
(05:45):
the people I grew up with, and Ithink, I think it laid the
foundation for what I do today,but it did in a kind of an
interesting way that I'll getinto later. But I went to the
University of PennsylvaniaWharton school, got my
undergraduate and MBA degree.
Were involved in a couple otherbusinesses, mostly in the
apparel and the Bata business.
Part of those businesses took meto China, which was kind of
(06:06):
opened my ID eyes to, you know,the world beyond Altoona, beyond
America. And then I got to seethe rest of Asia. And at some
point in time, you know, my wifeand I decided to move to San
Francisco, and I was kind of,you know, floundering to find a
new career, because I didn'twant to go back into the apparel
and the fashion business,because that, you know, I tell
(06:29):
people, if you want to lose alot of money and make a lot of
money, get into that business.
So I was tired of someone takeso many chips off the table
there. And I found the legalbusiness, and I found that, you
know, my kind of, my what I did,which was, you know, essentially
selling could be translated intothe legal world. And the legal
(06:50):
world was just kind of openingup for that. So I did consulting
for a while, and then, and just,you know, as I was, you know,
kind of struggling to figure outwhat my next chapter. After
consulting with smalls andsolos, where I had a successful
practice, business development,started coming to four, and I
can still remember having aconversation before I had my
(07:11):
first got a real big law job,and, you know, talking to a
friend of mine who suggestedthat I apply for this job at
Deckard, the Decker law firm.
And I said, Well, you know, biglaw firms don't have people like
me working for them. And hesaid, Oh, it's changing. It's
changing now we're having thisthing called business
(07:32):
development, and they're lookingfor people just like you. I'm
not sure if anybody looked forpeople exactly like me, but that
was what he said. And so Istarted there and found out that
in reality, that was true, thatyou know, a lot of what I was
doing in my practice, you know,my consulting for small firms
(07:53):
and solos, it's all the samething. Lawyers all the same
challenges, have the sameissues. Went from Decker to a
melbourney, and then my boss atmelbourney came from the next
Peabody, and I've been here forit for since that time. And, you
know, I tell people I kind ofuntraditional, current
traditional role. I look alittle bit untraditional, or
(08:14):
quite a bit untraditional, but Iactually had fairly traditional
trajectory in terms of, youknow, I started off at the firm
and in my firms, runningRegional Marketing. And so I
think I pretty much have done,been responsible for the San
Francisco region, the Californiaregion. I ran all the regional
marketing for the firm. CO ledour business development
(08:37):
function. But over that time, Ipretty much I've done
traditional marketing for everypractice group at the firm, and
that's kind of led to what I dotoday, because about five or six
years ago, the firm, you know,asked me if I would consider,
you know, I'd always been veryinvolved in an international
practice. I helped set up ourChina, our China practice, if I
would spend all of my timefocused on international and
(09:01):
kind of move to a moreindividual contributor role and
spend more time, take the timethat I would have spent, kind of
internally, you know, focus onexternally, and work with
clients more directly. So atthis point, I would describe my
role as I spend most of my timeworking with clients that are
looking at based in the US.
They're looking to do businesssomewhere else in the world, and
clients all over the worldlooking to do business here in
(09:23):
the US. Part of that comes withme supporting our our attorneys
that have relationships, or justhave relationships, but also I
do have my own relationships,and people will work directly to
me, and I'll find the folks herethat to work with them, but it's
a it's an exciting place thatwe've seen a big uptick in
(09:44):
activity, even through thepandemic, in terms of people
looking to do internationalbusiness. I think that you know
the the quantity of deals thatwe see now, that you know when
you know it's very infrequentlythat you now have a company that
says, oh my, you know, we'regoing to buy a. Company in the
US, and a UK company or by acompany of the US. And that's
it, you know, now, almost everydeal has, okay, we're buying a
(10:05):
company in the US. We also havea company, you know, they also
have a Syrian Ireland and Italyand, you know, Singapore. So the
complexity of deals have becomemuch more profound, and that's
that's benefited me, becausethat's kind of where, where I
can come in to help, you know,shop, you know, work through
some of those issues. I've had100, like, 140 different
(10:27):
countries I work in and haveexperience working with a lot of
different different companies, alot of different industries. I'm
industry agnostic. Obviously,practice agnostic, and it's, you
know, exciting, exciting spot inthe legal ecosystem. For me,
Rob Bata (10:48):
it's, it's fantastic.
It's you really, you have aunique role, you know, people,
people talk about businessdevelopment. I think yours is
really on on a whole otherlevel. So I'd like to see if we
can kind of position what you doagainst the marketing function
and and I think Murray's goingto be able to address this very
(11:10):
well, because your yourfunction, just from a simplistic
point of view, is you'rebringing this stuff in marketing
messages out and messages alsointernally, because there's a
great deal of selling that youhave to do within a firm in
order to get people interestedor excited about an opportunity
(11:31):
and so forth. I think you dosome of that, but I think it's
also part of marketingmessaging. So do you do you see,
kind of the same way that yourwork is sort of inbound and
marketing is sort of outbound.
Unknown (11:50):
I wouldn't describe it that way. I think they're more
intertwined in terms of the, youknow, I think you need to have
the underpinnings of, you know,of of the, you know, the
structure to sell something, youknow. I mean, I couldn't do my
job without, you know, having,you know, a great marketing
function, which we have, youknow, so, like, if I'm, you
(12:12):
know, if there's a conference,and, you know, there's the the
IBA M and A conferences in NewYork in June, and I'm going to
have a breakfast, and, you know,I'm going to reach out to my
contacts, things like that. Butunless we had, you know, the
capacity to organize thebreakfast and put the, you know,
put the invitation together, andI have confidence that it's
(12:32):
going to be a great experiencefor people, and we have really
sophisticated event planners andthings like that, then, you
know, pretty much it would be ait'd be a disaster. Because, you
know, as much as I could do, I'dshow up and we'd have, you know,
cold Danish and cold Coffey and,you know, the
dreaded, the dreaded continentalbreakfast,
right? Exactly. So, I mean, Ithink that's a simplistic
(12:55):
version. There's so much morethey do. I mean, marketing, I'd
say, as all of us have done thisfor a long time. Today's
marketing is very different. Youknow, I can remember back in the
day, like when we would do analert. I know this is gonna be
shocking for some people. Wewould actually print the alert
out, and we would have to stuffit into envelopes, and we'd have
tools the clients and hope theywere opened and read it. You
(13:18):
know, nowadays it's amazing. Youknow. The other thing is the
pitches and proposals. I when Itried to talk to our our younger
colleagues, our more juniorcolleagues, about the idea that,
you know, I had to, like, youknow, stay overnight when I was
working on a big pitch, because,you know, it wasn't, there was
no PDFs. Weren't the thing.
Like, we had to actually printthem out, and you had to go
(13:39):
through, and I'm spiral bound,and you had to sit there at the
printer, and, oh, yeah. Andyou look at everything, and some
colleagues said to me, like,well, well, why did you say?
Because, what if they, what ifthe printer had screwed up and
didn't put the right page, put apage in for some other other,
you know, law firm, you know,that would be pretty bad. And
so, you know, so I think thingshave changed a lot, much more
(14:00):
sophisticated, you know, thecapacity, you know, social media
has changed the ball game. Thewebsite is such a, such a more
important tool, you know,sophisticated research, and
using the research function. SoI think, you know, I think it's,
really has changed. It's thewhole ball game. It's not just
marketing, it's marketing. It'smore traditional business
development, it'scommunications, it's library and
(14:22):
information, all that has towork together in a much more
complicated process than, youknow, I could even dreamed at
when I started this business 20years ago. Sure,
when I talked to my, you know,to my colleagues, the folks that
I'm working with on eithermanaging in the team or with
(14:45):
partners or people like yourselfwho are who are out trying to
sell. I think about, I try tosay, hey, look, there's a basket
of capabilities and servicesthat we have, and not everything
is going to be useful orrelevant to what it is. You're
doing at that moment. The skillis knowing where to kind of
reach into that basket. And Ithink that, you know, what I've
(15:07):
the development that I've seenis a greater sophistication. And
you know, people like yourself,David, Bring it. Bring this,
really, bring this to the tableto say, yeah, there's a, there's
a there's a number of differenttools that I have available to
me, and I need those to do myjob. So it's kind of, I like to
think of business developmentand marketing as as an alloy,
(15:29):
not an allied but an alloy, youknow, coming together, forming
something that's stronger thaneither one can do. Can be
separate and and so it's, andit's, it's fantastic when the
marketing team can integratewhat they're doing with what the
partners and people likeyourself are doing in terms of
(15:51):
business development. You know,the earned media is a great
example. Earned Media is afeeder, right? That is a that's
something that that is used tocan be used to help raise sort
of a profile or raise an issueout in the world, but you have
to know what you're doing withit to turn it into a business
(16:12):
development asset. And so youknow, the more that my folks on
my side of the fence are, areable to sit and talk through and
understand what's going on interms of the BD side and what,
what the firm is trying tostrategically sell, if you will.
I mean sales. We can talk sales.
It's sales. It is what it is andand it makes us better at what
(16:36):
we do, and I think that there'ssome shading that we can bring
to what you all are doing onyour side. And I don't think of
it asides. It's just we're allpart of a part of an enterprise.
And I never really sawseparations between myself and
BD and recruiting and evenattorney development. That's all
(16:57):
part of, that's all part ofmoving the enterprise forward,
or the Empire forward, to
Rob Bata (17:06):
reference your shirt.
So it's like David says, It'svery intertwined. But I love
that. I love that formulationthat you used Murray alloy, not
ally. That's a that's a greatone. I've never heard that one
before, and I think just made itup. Excellent. Well, you're
obviously a born marketer,
Unknown (17:30):
but David, I guess I would have a question for you,
and that is as you think aboutand this is in no way seeking
out a criticism of any marketingteams that you've ever worked
with. That said, Where are the,where are the most high value
touch points with the marketingteam that you have? And you
(17:50):
know, obviously, yes, the eventsteam has to get the breakfast
put together, but on a more, Ithink, on a more strategic and
maybe more tactical basis, whatare the touch points for, for
the BD teams, where the wherethe marketing teams can be more
valuable, and we can flip thataround as well, if you want. But
I'm very interested in hearingwhere I think it's,
(18:13):
I think the area where we'reseeing a lot of activity. And
I'm not a tech guy, even thoughI work with companies, I don't
understand a lot of themarketing technology, but the
ability to capture experience iscritically important, as you
know, I guess I don't want tosound so much like a dinosaur,
but I can remember when I was,you know, part of what I did was
to keep track of deals on Excelspreadsheets, right? Or, you
(18:37):
know, things like that. Youknow, that has to go away. I
mean, they, we have, we gotta,you know, pick a button. Say,
Okay, how many deals have wedone in Latin America involving,
you know, $3 billion that's thekind of information you that you
have to have. Those are tablestakes. And you have to have
that information. And, you know,you know, putting, putting
proposal materials together. Ithink that's less I think some
(18:58):
of that stuff is, is become lessimportant over the years. I
think that the expectation thatyou need to have, you know,
fancy decks, I think, is lesscritical than I'd say 20 years
ago, even. But you do have to,have to be able to, you know,
show calls in the right way. SoI think, you know, I do think
that that, you know, showingquals and and doing traditional
(19:21):
marketing in terms of proposalsand things like that, is, is
just as critical. Now, it's justdifferent.
And it's different, yeah, muchmore granular, yeah.
And people don't want to read,you know, huge you know, things
and effects about your firm isthey want to know, what have you
done in this space? What do youknow, who you work with, things
(19:42):
like that, and you know that'sthe stuff you need to have, and
you need to have it doneimmediately, because you know
that they're not going to waitfor it. So I think that's that's
the one area where I think it'simportant. I'd say the other
area that you know requiresadditional skills and experience
is social media. I think thatthe. The capacity to think about
(20:02):
social media in a professionalway. Because, you know, things I
got my joke is, if it doesn't,if you don't post it on social
media, it never happened. Youknow, you know, I felt like,
like my wife uses a fitnesstracker, like, I remember we
went walking one day, and she'slike, Oh my god, it's so
terrible. You still walk like,you know,
(20:25):
right? But it's, but it doesn'tshow up on her. Garmin,
yeah. But same thing, like, ifyou you know, you know, lawyers,
you know need to be, you know,don't have the time to be
influencers, but they reallyneed to be to some extent. So I
think the idea is, how do you,how do you help them position
themselves and use, you know,the media to amplify everything
(20:48):
you just like when you said, ifthere's an article like, you
know, who's going to read thatarticle? Well, you know, how can
you shine the spotlight on thatarticle? How can you, you know,
you know, move attention to it?
So I think, I think those arethe two areas where I think
traditional, traditionalmarketing is critically
important and will continue toplay a major role going forward.
To your point, I
Rob Bata (21:09):
thought when I first started seeing people, you know,
law firms and their marketingdepartments say, you know, we're
on Twitter, or here's ourLinkedIn, I thought, Well, gee,
who's who's going to who's goingto go on Twitter, or who's going
to go on LinkedIn? To look atthat, that seems like a waste of
time. And now that I look backon that, of course, that seems
(21:32):
ridiculous, because so muchjust, just look at the idea of
business cards. Of course, westill carry business cards from
time to time. Some of them aremore sophisticated than others.
They have QR codes and so forth.
But the first thing you do whenyou meet somebody, or right
after you meet them, if you haveany interest, is look them up on
LinkedIn and and then try tomake a connection and and so
(21:52):
forth. So it's become reallyingrained in the system. And
although lawyers, as you know,both of you are slow adopters.
That is now really all part ofthe ecosystem of the legal
market. And
Unknown (22:09):
I think Rob the the you know, to David, to your point
about, about using social mediaand earned media, etc, where I
see firms not I think the netsort of the next frontier, if
you will, for social media, andI want to talk about the quals
in a minute, but the next, thenext, the next phase, I think,
(22:32):
for social media, for law firms,for the larger firms, the
smaller firms, are actuallydoing a better, better job in
many ways on this is not used,not just looking at LinkedIn as
kind of the firm's virtualbillboard. Okay, this is what
happened. This is, this is whowent to this event, who this is
who got this award, etc, tostart to use it as a, as a, as
(22:55):
a, as a, as a tool for, forstaking out some, you know, some
intellectual space within thewithin the within our sector. A
great example I'll give you is awonderful firm out of out of New
York, a boutique friend of mineis, is the managing partner
(23:15):
there, and she identified, andthey're small. There may be 30
partners there, but sheidentified that that the net,
she felt like the next bigquestion phase, etc, in
Financial Litigation would wouldbe around the LIBOR transition,
which seems really in the kindof weeds stuff, but she's she
(23:36):
went on LinkedIn every week onThursdays and posted something
every Thursday afternoon aboutLIBOR, whether it was, you know,
the eight sentences that shepicked out of a Financial Times
article, or her own thoughts onwhat what she just heard about
LIBOR. And guess what happened?
They started getting all thecalls from Bloomberg and from
(23:58):
from Financial Times in the WallStreet Journal about libraries,
probablyfrom clients, probably from
clients too well. Andthen from clients, yeah, then
from clients, sure. Now theclient started that. Now the
clients, oh, okay, well, Anneand her firm are the LIBOR
experts, and they weren't LIBORexperts before Anne said, We're
LIBOR exports. Now they wereexperts in LIBOR, but the world
(24:18):
didn't know that they were LIBORexperts. So that's like, that's
I had the same a couple yearsago. I had a so called social
media expert tell me that hethought that I would that I he
not like my social my LinkedInfeed. He did not like it. I
thought it's cup of tea. I said,why? He said, Well, it's, it
seems very contrived. I waslike, oh, okay, why? Why do I
(24:41):
say? Why do you say that? Hesays, Well, I can so, why? So
what? You know, it seems likeyou really are, like, focusing
people's interest in trying tounderstand who you are. Like,
okay, well, who do you think?
And he said, I think you'rereally interested in
international work with theheavy emphasis on. China, you're
really involved in anythingevolving, like San Francisco,
(25:03):
with kind of economicdevelopment kind of made, and
you're like, you're this crazyathlete, dude, that's pretty
much, that's pretty much it. Iguess I do my job,
David, for the win.
I agree with you. It iscontrived. I'm glad you figured
it out. And if I posted a lot ofrandom shit, you know, that
(25:24):
probably would be bad. Would beworse, yeah,
before we hop off this topic, Iknow we're, you know, we're
getting a little little gear ontime here, I did want to circle
back to this idea, David of theof the quals, of being able to,
you know, being able to quicklyand with a level of granularity,
(25:44):
be able to say what we do, whowe do it, for, how often we've
done it, who are the people inour firm who are experts in it?
That's kind of the holy grail ofof where the marketing and BD
functions are kind ofintersecting, in my view, and
that to facilitate that, and tohave that information, and not
(26:07):
only have it but have it beaccurate, have it be instant.
You know, it should beinstantaneously available. Is
time consuming. Is relativelyexpensive in terms of in terms
of what law firms are spendingon, on Mark marketing technology
today, but I do think it's it'sabsolutely essential, and
(26:29):
there's a number of products outthere. But the point I want to
make is, I think that where I'vebeen successful in implementing
these kinds of programs is bygetting the business developers
at the firms that I was at tosay, we need this, this, this
is, this is what we need. It'snot just Murray saying we should
have this. It's David and Murraycoming together and saying to
(26:51):
the firm, we need this. We'rethis. We're we this will give us
a competitive advantage for alittle while. That window will
close and it'll be table stakes.
And if we get behind and wedon't have this as table Steven,
as table stakes as an offering,we're going to be in we're going
to be in trouble as a firm andand I think that those are the
kinds of discussions that thebusiness development team, the
(27:13):
marketing team, outsideconsultants who can say, this is
what your clients are lookingat, this is what they're this is
what They need to know. And, Imean, you know, Rob, when you
think about, you know, sort ofyour your your bread and butter,
which is, which is the, which isbringing firms and practices and
all together, being able to havethat answer, being able to have
that information at yourfingertips, makes your job. It
(27:35):
makes your job, I wouldn't sayeasier, but it certainly helps
you. It certainly helps you movethings forward. If you can say,
Yeah, I know what this firmdoes.
Good example, so on, I guessMonday or Tuesday, I got an
inquiry from a dear firm, a goodcolleague in another firm in the
(27:57):
UK, and they were interested inK through 12 education in the
US, and they said, Do you know,do you do that? And, you know, I
mean, because I I've been atthis firm for a long time, I
know everybody at the firm, likeI have, like, if I could
download my brain and do it, andso I was able to respond within
like, you know, 45 seconds, thefact that other person on email
(28:18):
is like, how did you know that?
Like, at the top of your head,you know, not only who the
person was, you know, what shedid, what Her background was,
everything else. And you know,it was able to go back
immediately and say, Yes, wehave the expert. You know, Tina
scanning is awesome. She used towork for, you know, the US
Department of Justice and theNew York State and everything
else. And she's just awesome.
(28:40):
And, you know, I think, and Itell people, there's a way to
make a referral, and there's away to make a referral, and so
you can make a referral quicklyand with specificity about, you
know, why this person is reallythe rock star, you know, I think
that that, in my, my experiencethat has, that has made a big, a
big difference, you know. Ithink the idea is that, you
know, there's, there's a line,like, once you start, you know,
(29:04):
kind of pitching, you've lostalready. So, like, if you could
get beyond the pitch, and it'slike, oh, this is the person you
have to use. Of course, this isthe first you have to use. And,
you know, so that, that's what Istrive for. But if you could
take, you know, what's in my, mylittle cop here, and turn it
into, you know, some way someoneelse could type in and say,
Okay, who do we know? Does youknow K through 12, right?
(29:27):
Education? And this is what wehave, you know, if you can, you
know, you might be replicate my,you know, my little synapses,
but you probably could good, youknow, you'll, you'll do a pretty
good job.
Yeah, I can be done.
Rob Bata (29:42):
That's a really important skill. And I have to
say that your point about ifyou're still pitching you've
lost it, is really crucial. Andfrankly, I find that true in my
business, too. And.
Unknown (30:00):
That concludes part one of our discussion with David
Kaufman, the Director of Globalstrategies at Nixon Peabody,
please stay tuned for part two,which will air shortly, and
subscribe so that you can getnotice of all of GMTs podcasts
you
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