January 3, 2023 • 33 mins
In this pilot podcast of GMT Rob and Murray discuss some of the basics regarding how and whether a firm should expand internationally. Including key considerations such as experience in a given geography, client needs, communications strategy, and when to bring the executive team into the discussion (spoiler alert...early.) And listen for Bata's Best Bet, Rob's hot take on the newest intel on global law firm expansion.
Contact Rob and Murray:
Robert C. Bata, Founder and Principal, WarwickPlace Legal
Email: rbata@warwickplace.com
Murray M. Coffey, Founder and Principal, M Coffey
Email: murray@mcoffey.net
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:04):
Robert, welcome to GMT, the podcast for globally minded
law firm leaders with your host.
Robert Bata, founder andprincipal of warwood Place legal
LLC and Murray Coffey, founderof M Coffey LLC, this podcast is
designed to answer some nuts andbolts questions, provide best
practices and even share a fewhard won lessons about how, when
(00:25):
and why to expand your firm'sglobal presence. The audience we
serve are those with theresponsibility for growing their
firms through internationalexpansion, whether you're a
managing partner, executivecommittee member or rising
partner with your eye on gaininggreater legal access to global
markets for legal services. Wehope our podcast provides you
(00:45):
advice, counsel, and maybe evena few challenges to preconceived
notions for just what makes aglobal expansion necessary and
how to make it successful. Andnow a little bit about our
hosts, I'm very happy tointroduce to you Robert Rob
Bata, who for over a decade hasexclusively focused on
formulating and implementingcross border expansion
(01:07):
strategies for leading law firmsof all sizes in a wide array of
markets. Prior to founding warworkplace, Rob practiced for
more than 30 years as a crossborder mergers and acquisitions
partner at prominent firmsincluding Sullivan and Cromwell,
Mayor Brown and salons, nowknown as Dentons, Rob was among
the first lawyers to establish asuccessful practice in many of
(01:29):
Europe's emerging economies.
During his legal career, heestablished and managed offices
in London, throughout Europe andin China. Rob's consulting
practice is notable for his fullcycle approach to advising his
client. Rob invests significanttime with his clients to
establish a well reasonedstrategy for global growth where
(01:51):
appropriate, correlating thefirm's culture, practice,
aspirations and client needsagainst current and foreseeable
geopolitical, economic andsocial trends. Rob's record of
success is legend, and he hasbecome one of the most sought
after consultants in the sector.
Rob Bata (02:08):
Thank you, Murray.
That's a very kind introduction.
Murray Coffey is an attorneywith over 30 years of
experience. He began his careerin the courtroom crucible of the
Cook County Public Defender'sOffice. For the last 20 years,
Murray has served in marketingand business development roles,
including 13 years as the CMOfor a number of am law, 100 law
firms during his tenure, each ofthe firms with which he worked
(02:32):
expanded domestically andglobally, often during
exceedingly challengingcircumstances such as the post
Lehman Brothers financialmeltdown and recession, the
roller coaster ride of globalenergy prices, a pandemic,
Brexit and natural disasters,including hurricanes and
earthquakes. Through it all, thefirms he served prospered and
(02:52):
grew. Murray has developedmarketing and business
development strategies that areboth focused on promoting and
growing the enterprise whileadapting a localized approach
for each market, especially inbusiness centers such as Mexico
City, Shanghai, London and Riode Janeiro, to name a few,
Murray is currently advisingleadership partners of highly
(03:14):
innovative law firms on how bestto grow and market their
services. He also maintains apro bono practice representing
global not for profits in theDallas Fort Worth region. Murray
has traveled extensively andfinds emerging markets to be of
keen interest. Thank
Unknown (03:31):
you, Rob. Why don't we go ahead and dig in? You?
Rob Bata (03:43):
Murray. So the reason Murray and I decided to have a
podcast like this is we feltthat there was a need to get a
little bit more information outthere about how strategy works
in in a concrete sense, on a dayto day basis. That doesn't mean
(04:03):
that we're going to focus on theday to day, but what we're
really focusing on is theinterplay of strategic advice
with sound messaging practices,and how that interplay, how that
teamwork, really contributes toa successful cross border law
Unknown (04:24):
firm merger. Yeah. And I think, oh, go ahead, Rob.
Rob Bata (04:28):
Sorry, we won't just be talking about mergers
necessarily. We'll be talkingabout strategy. We're gonna try
to talk about strategy withoutthe buzzwords, without the
consulting buzzwords. But alsogiven that Murray and I have
experience in having workedtogether on a significant cross
border merger, and we've knowneach other for a long time, and
(04:49):
we respect each other's talents,we felt that it would be really
good to get across the idea ofhow these things work in a
practical way. So. So thatpeople who watch this podcast,
the many hundreds we hope toattract, will 1000s come up from
understanding some of thepractical steps that need to be
(05:12):
taken to make it successful. And
Unknown (05:14):
I think a key key concept here, Rob is the idea of
teamwork, and we're going totalk in this podcast and others
about what the team how youshould be thinking about the
team, because it's not in a lawfirm setting, oftentimes, not
always, and we'll talk about thenot always part, probably more
(05:35):
than the oftentimes part, butoftentimes the professional
staff are among, among the thelast to know that the merger or
the or the lift out, or howeveryou want to talk about, about
the the the action happens. Sowe're also going to talk about
(05:56):
when to bring folks in earlierthan you might think. And as Rob
said, we worked on on a prettysignificant merger a number of
years ago, and and I think we, Ithink we developed some best
practices through that. So Rob,you want to just kind of
continue with taking us throughsome of the some of the ideas on
(06:17):
the why you do this?
Rob Bata (06:20):
Well, why one does this? Let's start with why I do
what I do, and then we can talkabout why a law firm might want
to do what they do, and how thatimplicates my work, and then
ultimately, how it implicateswhat what you do. As Murray said
(06:41):
in the introduction, I practicedfor many, many years with a
number of big firms, and when Iretired from that, I thought
that law firms could use abetter understanding of
international markets and how tobreak into international
markets, either through mergeror through Greenfield or through
alliances or a number of otherways, including just
(07:02):
internationalizing one'sdomestic practices. So having
now been at this for about 12years with workplace legal, I
think that I have a couple ofthings that I may be able to say
of value on the subject normallywhat happens is the usual
scenario that I find, is that alaw firm is thinking about
(07:28):
strategies, thinking about whatare we going to do in the next
three years, next five years?
And very often, what comes up,especially with larger law firms
and a broad variety of practicesis, should we be more
international? Is there a placeto where we should be that we
aren't sometimes the questionis, how are we doing in a
(07:50):
particular place where we are?
Should we get the heck out ofthere? Because it's terrible and
so, so it can be a number ofdifferent things, but that's the
time when I usually get calledin. Sometimes I don't get called
in, but I will call up a contactof mine at a law firm and say,
(08:10):
you know, you guys are doingreally fantastically, but your
practice would be greatlyenhanced if you had an office in
x or if you did this in aparticular region, or if you
paid more attention to thatparticular region or a country.
So that's how it comes about,and the ordinary scenario, and
this is where I want to get tothis interplay that we were
(08:32):
talking about earlier, and whereMurray comes in, and where his
role is so important, and therole of the person who is the
CMO or or similar role is soimportant, and normally what
happens is a person like me willbe talking to the managing
partner, senior partner,management committee, or maybe
(08:55):
even a strategy committee. Inother words, a partner led
exercise within the firm, and Iwill be speaking to them. And
it's only really recently thatpeople have begun to realize
that that circle needs to beexpanded a little bit, and that
you need to involve the nonlawyer, or the non practicing
(09:19):
lawyer, executives of the firmin order to formulate, to
disseminate and to ultimatelyexecute strategy. So I find, and
I have found in my work over thepast number of years that having
the involvement of the executiveteam is really, really crucial.
(09:41):
And I think that, Murray, youcan address that because you
you've seen the point at whichinternally, people turn to you
and say, okay, Murray, how do wego about this? And what do we
need to know? What do we need toknow? And what can you tell us
now? About what, what thisoutside guy is telling us about
(10:03):
strategy and what we ought to bedoing. And
Unknown (10:06):
I think that that the the the idea of sort of
expanding that circle andexpanding it earlier is is the
right one. And I've been in bothsituations where, you know, it
just kind of gets dropped onyour lap. And you are whether
it's a domestic opening, adomestic office, bringing in a
(10:26):
bringing in a large group, or aninternational cross border
situation, gets dropped in yourlap, and you can't do your best
job when it's just dropped inyour lap. These are very
complicated. And Rob, I knowyou, you're very you're very
aware of this, the complicatedaspects of these kinds of
(10:47):
transactions. And it's not justcomplicated because, you know,
there's there's business,there's complex business issues
at play. There are, but you'realso in a partnership setting.
You're also in a setting inwhich you have sort of all the
eyes on you, and we know whathappens sometimes, when, when,
when the message gets out beforethe firm is ready to have it get
(11:07):
out, and all those eyes are onyou, and doesn't happen that
looks bad for both both firms.
So what, what I have worked onwith leadership at firms that
I've worked with is to say, hey,you know what? The earlier we
can get in, the better the jobthat we can do, and we can help
you be more informed about that,because we take those of us who
(11:28):
are on the growth side, and Ihope that you know any CMOS that
are listening to this, or headsof business development that
might be listening to this, youare, you are part of the growth
equation for your firm, and youshould be thinking about about
that, your role in that and inthat role you need to, you need
to make sure that you'rethinking very clearly about how
(11:49):
you assist the firm andunderstanding what this growth
will mean. So you're, you shouldbe looking at the client base
with with, with it, with, with,with more detail and at a
greater sort of granular level.
And maybe the partners are, orthe or the managing partner is,
is doing and reallyunderstanding, sort of where the
(12:10):
source of volume is. And youknow, you're not going to be
able to pull the plug on aninternational expansion if it
needs to have the plug pulled,but you can certainly, you can
certainly create, create enoughquestions so that people can be
asking the right questionsabout, let
Rob Bata (12:27):
me, let me just go back, because you mentioned a
very important word here, whichis, which is clients. And after
all, that's what, that's whatdrives law firms, and that's
what law firms ought to bepaying attention to. More than
anything else, more thangeography, more than how many
foosball tables you get in yourrec room. It's clients, and we
(12:47):
know that. So I simplifiedthings earlier on when I said,
you know, I'll approach a firmand say, shouldn't you be doing
x? Or a firm approaches me andsays, we're thinking about x
before those approaches happen,both sides do a great deal of
analysis. I follow trends inaround the globe about what law
(13:11):
firms are doing, what specificpractices are doing, where
economies are headed, what thegeopolitics are that may drive
the direction of the dollar, ifyou will, one way or another. So
there's a good deal ofanalytical thinking, first, I
think, on both sides, on the lawfirm side and on the on the
(13:32):
consultant side. But where thosereally meet is clients. So
understanding what your clientswant, what your clients need,
and how best to serve them, andwhere best to serve them, that
comes together with realconsultation. And that's where I
(13:56):
also think what you were saying,Murray, is so important that
you're looking at those clientlists, and you're looking at
client performance, you'relooking at perhaps client teams
and the message that they'vebeen putting out thanks to your
team, to their clients, andunderstanding how you can advise
(14:17):
Law Firm leadership about whatmay be suitable for clients and
what may not be, what may workand what may not work. And I
think that that's really key,because it comes down to that
ultimately, if, if a if anexpansion is just a vanity
project, or if it only serves avery small group of partners, or
(14:39):
if, for some reason it's donejust because everybody else is
doing it. It's not going towork. It only works if the
firm's clientele, by and large,is going to understand that this
is good for them, and of course,for them to understand that
other. Then, of course, thelawyers talking to their clients
(15:02):
and explaining it. The messagehas to come from you. The
message has to come from thepeople who really understand how
to deliver a message. But beforeyou get there, there's internal
messaging. So before you get tothat point, you need to be able
to work with the people youknow, with the partners that you
(15:23):
work with and that you work for,and be able to say to them,
Look, here is why this wouldwork. But more important, here's
how we explain why this wouldwork. And by the way, if you
were skeptical, here are some ofthe reasons that you might
(15:44):
consider why this actually was agood idea.
Unknown (15:48):
Yeah. And as a as a communications professional,
which is part of part of my, myjob, it really is sort of
burrowing into the the reasoningfor this and and being able to
help the management teaminternally express it in a way
that is consistent with firmculture, and also provide the
(16:10):
partners with tools to talk totheir clients about it, or to or
to, you know, ping their clientsa little bit and find out if
this would matter to them andand, you know, unfortunately,
not, not part, I shouldn't sayunfortunately, fortunately,
partners are getting better andbetter about talking about the
business of the firm with theirclients, because the clients
(16:31):
actually do care about thebusiness of your firm, their
business people, and so theywant to know that you're
thinking very rationally andreasonably about your business
and why you're doing what you'redoing. But the the the the
International, internationalgrowth doesn't mean that you
suddenly have two of everyeverybody it. It means that you
(16:55):
may have a couple of extra handson deck. Once, the once the the
merger happens, but generallyspeaking, it means that the that
the team that has been workingwith, working and running the
firm day to day, has additionalresponsibilities. And that's a
there's communications that haveto be, you know, that have to be
(17:16):
framed around that verycarefully, because it's, it is,
it is additional work. Those ofus who enjoy growth say that's
good work. That's great work. Welike to we like to engage in
that. That's not the case foreverybody in the firm, even the
other even the other lawyers atthe firm. So there is, there's a
lot of consideration on theinternal messaging, and then
(17:39):
there's also the external can.
The external happens once, theonce that, once the the final
decision has been made to pursuethis. Not the paper. The ink is
not dry on the on the mergerpapers yet, but that, that
decision is, we're going to dothis. This is, this is going to
happen. That's when my teamshould be. They should have
(17:59):
already been fully engaged, butnow we should really be deep
into it, thinking through howwe're going to communicate this
in the marketplace, which I haveto say, you know, working with
Rob on that, on that merger thathe and I worked on. Unlike other
people in Rob's position, Robwas at the table for those
discussions as well. Rob wasweighing in, Rob, you know, not
(18:22):
micromanaging it by in stretchof the imagination, but helping
in a in a very important way, toto couch the to help couch the
messaging. And the earlier wewere able to do that, the again,
the better job that we can do,and the more flexible we can be.
And that's a key to the tocommunications about, especially
(18:45):
the external communicationsabout, about growth in a merger.
And you know, Robert, you'llremember the the incidents that
happened around that, that thatmerger that we were talking
about.
Rob Bata (19:00):
Yes, of course. So and we'll, we'll have a little bit
more detail on that in a minute,but I just, I want to mention
one thing that's important. Fromwhat you said for a consultant,
what's really important is tobelieve in his or her
recommendations and and if youdo, if you really feel that
(19:22):
you've given the right adviceand it's being executed as it
should be, then you shouldbelieve in helping to move it
forward, even after the papershave been signed, even after
everybody's shaking hands, Evenafter the initial press releases
have gone out. You you want tobe there to make sure that it's
(19:45):
going right. That's just alittle bit of consulting. Best
practice. I've never walked awayfrom a situation like that where
two parties agreed to. Dosomething together, and I
thought my work was not I'vealways felt that my work
continues until everyone'ssatisfied, that not only has
(20:09):
some particular transaction beenagreed, but it's actually
rolling down the highway. So Ithink that that's an important
point. Now it's true, thetransaction Murray is referring
to, happened to be right aroundthe time that Brexit was was
voted in,
Unknown (20:28):
like the week of rob the week, it was the week
Rob Bata (20:32):
off. And, you know, I would say 50% of the people in
the world would have thoughtthat that was the worst time to
do a merger, and the other 50%in the world might have maybe
scratched their head about it,but I think we were able to
construct a message with Murray,and Murray got that out there
(20:53):
very effectively, that the thismerger, in fact, works not only
on its own merits, but despitewhat obstacles Brexit might
throw up and in fact, alsocreate certain advantages that
(21:16):
that a non Brexit situationmight not even have had. So that
was quick and nimble thinking,and it was extremely well done.
And it's just one of thosethings we always hope that there
isn't some sort of horribledisaster right around the time
mergers announced. But thathappened to want to be one of
those situations where you hadto act very, very fast and and
(21:40):
make lemonade out of a lemon, ifyou will. And
Unknown (21:45):
please go ahead, Murray. And the point here is
that that we have thatflexibility, because we were
brought in early into into thediscussions I personally and my
team had already hadrelationships with the partners
on the on the on the thepartners at the firm we were
(22:08):
acquiring with their leadershiphad had good, you know, good
relationships that were goingback and forth. We were all
pretty well versed in why we'redoing this, and what it was
going to bring to the to theclients. We had a, we had a, you
know, we had a we had an onsite, you know, on the ground
(22:30):
agency that we were workingwith, who we brought in very
early, and they were able topivot the the message, but the
the the point being, we were, wewere only able to exercise that
level of flexibility because wehad, we had a deep knowledge of
(22:53):
the of the engagement, a deepknowledge of the transaction at
a and a and a, you know, buddingrelationships with people on on
both sides of the Atlantic onthat one, and
Rob Bata (23:03):
it ultimately it all made sense. And of course,
that's remained a verysuccessful law. Oh yeah, I'm
gonna ask you a tough question.
One of the things that you findI've written an article that
gets republished from time totime, that's titled 15 ways to
screw up your internationalmerger. And one of the things I
(23:24):
talk about is what drives aninternational merger if, let's
say it's one partner or smallgroup of partners who believe
that their practice wouldbenefit without really regard to
anybody else, but their practicewould benefit if you were in
country X or region y. But itactually isn't that great. It's
(23:50):
not that important for the firm,and it might be additional
management resource wasted andso forth. How? How does one deal
with the sort of the kind ofenthusiast who really wants to
be somewhere where the firmisn't but it doesn't make the
(24:12):
best sense is that the kind ofsituation where you and and
people in your position canactually play their role.
Unknown (24:27):
The way that we play a role there, Rob is, if that
partner is really pursuing workin that geography, and maybe
they're successful in thatgeography, we'll find ways to
support them and support them onthe ground. So we might find, we
might find on the ground groupsthat we can work with. We I've
(24:48):
done this in Mexico City. I'vedone this in in in, you know,
Rio, where we, where we had anoffice for a while, where, where
you've where you you havepeople. And this is, this is the
important thing. This is why youneed. To need to really think
this stuff through. You need to,you need to help that partner
localize their messaging andlocalize what they're doing and
how they're approaching themarket. And oftentimes they'll
(25:10):
have some relationships there,but they won't have, they won't
have business supportrelationships there. And I'm not
talking about secretarialsupport or or drivers or things
like that, but, people who canbe Sherpas and translators. And
when I say translator, I don'tmean language, but I mean
business translators with theselawyers, because you know you
(25:33):
that that might, it might turninto, it might turn into an
office at some point. So you,you're you, you're also sort of
laying the, laying thegroundwork that you know, let's
see what we can do in thisjurisdiction, and maybe we,
maybe we do now, you know, I hadpartners that I worked with who
were doing a lot oftransactions, oil and gas
(25:55):
transactions in Africa, andthere just wasn't, we just
weren't going to open an officeIn West Africa, and they
weren't. They weren't, theyweren't advocating that we
opened an office in West Africa,but we did find ways for them to
get out and market on theground, you know, and not just
and not just in, not just in,you know, going to see their
(26:17):
clients, etc, but, but, youknow, finding conferences that
are related to, you know,development in West Africa, and
finding, finding journals wherethey could, they could write,
really, you know, some basicblocking and tackling. But it's
it. It does it. Oftentimes cansort of quiet down that
(26:37):
immediate, you know, knee jerkreaction of we need to have an
office on the ground in Mali
Rob Bata (26:43):
so you can, so you can. So basically you you've
been able to sort of gentlysteer them away from kind of
world reading ambition, but atthe same time, we're able to
persuade them that there areother ways of of expanding, that
that their ability to projecttheir footprint, their profile,
(27:04):
their presence, withoutnecessarily going going all the
way by acquiring an office oropen in Greenfield
Unknown (27:13):
and making sure that we have the budget and the
management support we do. You doneed that as well, as long as
the management understands thatthe budget that you're going to
be that you're asking for, andit usually is not budget that
you anticipated, is going to beused carefully and and is going
to be managed carefully. You canusually get that, especially if
(27:34):
you've got a partner who'sreally, really needs, really
says, Hey, we've got someopportunities here. I got to be
on the ground. I got to jointhese organizations, I've got to
get a leadership position, etc.
So those are and oftentimes I'vehad, I've, you know, more than
once I've had a managing partnercome and say, hey, you know this
partner really wants to, reallywants to burrow into this
particular area. Can you givesome special resources to this
(27:55):
person for a limited amount oftime to see what we can, what we
can come up with. And sometimesit works. Sometimes it doesn't,
but, but, but, you know, youlearn pretty quickly that no is
not a word that that that youuse often in a law firm, there's
different there's artful ways ofsaying no. That could be a whole
podcast in and of itself. Rob,yes,
Rob Bata (28:17):
it's artful persuasion. Is, is, is quite an
important talent. I think that,I think we've now laid the
groundwork for what it is thatwe're trying to convey in this
podcast. We've ranged a littlebit back and forth and future
podcasts, we're going tocontinue to talk about the
mechanics. Also, we'll have someguests on Murray. You and I have
(28:41):
talked about having people fromfor example, from outside PR or
lawyers who handle partnershipmergers and so forth. We'll be
announcing those. But I thinkthat, for starters, we've
probably managed to stake outsome decent ground for the
understanding of what theinterplay is between the outside
(29:03):
consultant and the in house, nonlawyer, executive. And I think
if you have something else onthat, chances are maybe we
should. We should keep that foranother podcast. Yeah,
Unknown (29:20):
I agree. And I, you know, I think we've, we've,
we've laid that groundwork. Whatwe haven't done, though, Rob is
what will be my favorite part ofthese podcasts, and that's Bata
best bet, and so and so. Thisis, this is a ROB Bata. Rob
Bata, 50,000 foot view on, on,sort of where you, where, where
(29:43):
you, where you might be thinkingabout putting your your next
office or group of lawyers orlift out, or whatever it might
be. So Rob, and we'll have atrumpet drill at some point,
Rob, I promise you. But Rob,what's your best bet?
Rob Bata (29:57):
Well, my best bet, and, and I. Think my best bet
may not always be about where itmight be about just what's
happening, but my best bet rightnow, I have to say, is Singapore
is an extremely vibrant economiccenter. Over the past couple of
years, while I've seen andworked with some of eight to 10
(30:23):
law firms opening up offices inSingapore. Some law firms have
expanded dramatically. Look,Singapore is is first of all, a
hub for Southeast Asia, so andreally even reaching into China.
Second, Singapore is nowbecoming a hedge against Hong
Kong, where circumstances havebecome a little bit difficult,
(30:46):
although that may be changing,but I do think it's a hedge.
Singapore has an extraordinarilylively Investment Fund, so
private equity, private wealth,maritime insurance and and, of
course, oil and gas energy andLNG practice, not to mention
(31:08):
arbitration and litigation withtheir special International
Commercial Court and theirarbitration center. So my bet
for now is if, if we're thinkingabout what makes sense, and
remember, it's not for everyone,but if you're in an appropriate
practice area, Singapore is is amust, certainly for the next few
(31:33):
years. And just to, just torattle off a couple of names,
just practically this quarter,or the past two quarters,
Greenberg, traurig, Goodwin,Proctor, the Spanish firm Perez
York, and English firm CharlesRussell speech leads, which is
which is a private wealthspecialist, have all opened
offices just very recently.
Mayor Brown, my friends therejust recently, entered into an
(31:54):
important alliance there. Theyalready had an office, but the
Alliance allows them to practiceSingaporean law. So it is hot,
it's great. It's literally hot,but it's, it's, it's an
excellent place, and it's aplace that welcomes expatriates
as well. That's my
Unknown (32:14):
and it's, yeah, you're right, right on the equator. So
it's, it's always hot there. Andit's a it's also just a great
place to visit. Reallyremarkable when, when you get to
Singapore and see what, whatthey've done with what it was
essentially a rock, but it'scertainly, certainly has matured
substantially in those years, inthe ensuing years. Well, Rob, I
(32:37):
want to thank everybody who'stuned in. And I want to thank
you for for for your brilliantidea of getting this podcast off
the ground and and I lookforward to getting our next, our
next podcast teed up and and outinto the out into the wild.
Rob Bata (32:55):
And thank you, Murray, for being a great partner in
this podcast. You
Robert, welcome to GMT, the podcast for globally minded
law firm leaders with your host.
Robert Bata, founder andprincipal of warwood Place legal
LLC and Murray Coffey, founderof M Coffey LLC, this podcast is
designed to answer some nuts andbolts questions, provide best
practices and even share a fewhard won lessons about how, when
(00:25):
and why to expand your firm'sglobal presence. The audience we
serve are those with theresponsibility for growing their
firms through internationalexpansion, whether you're a
managing partner, executivecommittee member or rising
partner with your eye on gaininggreater legal access to global
markets for legal services. Wehope our podcast provides you
(00:45):
advice, counsel, and maybe evena few challenges to preconceived
notions for just what makes aglobal expansion necessary and
how to make it successful. Andnow a little bit about our
hosts, I'm very happy tointroduce to you Robert Rob
Bata, who for over a decade hasexclusively focused on
formulating and implementingcross border expansion
(01:07):
strategies for leading law firmsof all sizes in a wide array of
markets. Prior to founding warworkplace, Rob practiced for
more than 30 years as a crossborder mergers and acquisitions
partner at prominent firmsincluding Sullivan and Cromwell,
Mayor Brown and salons, nowknown as Dentons, Rob was among
the first lawyers to establish asuccessful practice in many of
(01:29):
Europe's emerging economies.
During his legal career, heestablished and managed offices
in London, throughout Europe andin China. Rob's consulting
practice is notable for his fullcycle approach to advising his
client. Rob invests significanttime with his clients to
establish a well reasonedstrategy for global growth where
(01:51):
appropriate, correlating thefirm's culture, practice,
aspirations and client needsagainst current and foreseeable
geopolitical, economic andsocial trends. Rob's record of
success is legend, and he hasbecome one of the most sought
after consultants in the sector.
Rob Bata (02:08):
Thank you, Murray.
That's a very kind introduction.
Murray Coffey is an attorneywith over 30 years of
experience. He began his careerin the courtroom crucible of the
Cook County Public Defender'sOffice. For the last 20 years,
Murray has served in marketingand business development roles,
including 13 years as the CMOfor a number of am law, 100 law
firms during his tenure, each ofthe firms with which he worked
(02:32):
expanded domestically andglobally, often during
exceedingly challengingcircumstances such as the post
Lehman Brothers financialmeltdown and recession, the
roller coaster ride of globalenergy prices, a pandemic,
Brexit and natural disasters,including hurricanes and
earthquakes. Through it all, thefirms he served prospered and
(02:52):
grew. Murray has developedmarketing and business
development strategies that areboth focused on promoting and
growing the enterprise whileadapting a localized approach
for each market, especially inbusiness centers such as Mexico
City, Shanghai, London and Riode Janeiro, to name a few,
Murray is currently advisingleadership partners of highly
(03:14):
innovative law firms on how bestto grow and market their
services. He also maintains apro bono practice representing
global not for profits in theDallas Fort Worth region. Murray
has traveled extensively andfinds emerging markets to be of
keen interest. Thank
Unknown (03:31):
you, Rob. Why don't we go ahead and dig in? You?
Rob Bata (03:43):
Murray. So the reason Murray and I decided to have a
podcast like this is we feltthat there was a need to get a
little bit more information outthere about how strategy works
in in a concrete sense, on a dayto day basis. That doesn't mean
(04:03):
that we're going to focus on theday to day, but what we're
really focusing on is theinterplay of strategic advice
with sound messaging practices,and how that interplay, how that
teamwork, really contributes toa successful cross border law
Unknown (04:24):
firm merger. Yeah. And I think, oh, go ahead, Rob.
Rob Bata (04:28):
Sorry, we won't just be talking about mergers
necessarily. We'll be talkingabout strategy. We're gonna try
to talk about strategy withoutthe buzzwords, without the
consulting buzzwords. But alsogiven that Murray and I have
experience in having workedtogether on a significant cross
border merger, and we've knowneach other for a long time, and
(04:49):
we respect each other's talents,we felt that it would be really
good to get across the idea ofhow these things work in a
practical way. So. So thatpeople who watch this podcast,
the many hundreds we hope toattract, will 1000s come up from
understanding some of thepractical steps that need to be
(05:12):
taken to make it successful. And
Unknown (05:14):
I think a key key concept here, Rob is the idea of
teamwork, and we're going totalk in this podcast and others
about what the team how youshould be thinking about the
team, because it's not in a lawfirm setting, oftentimes, not
always, and we'll talk about thenot always part, probably more
(05:35):
than the oftentimes part, butoftentimes the professional
staff are among, among the thelast to know that the merger or
the or the lift out, or howeveryou want to talk about, about
the the the action happens. Sowe're also going to talk about
(05:56):
when to bring folks in earlierthan you might think. And as Rob
said, we worked on on a prettysignificant merger a number of
years ago, and and I think we, Ithink we developed some best
practices through that. So Rob,you want to just kind of
continue with taking us throughsome of the some of the ideas on
(06:17):
the why you do this?
Rob Bata (06:20):
Well, why one does this? Let's start with why I do
what I do, and then we can talkabout why a law firm might want
to do what they do, and how thatimplicates my work, and then
ultimately, how it implicateswhat what you do. As Murray said
(06:41):
in the introduction, I practicedfor many, many years with a
number of big firms, and when Iretired from that, I thought
that law firms could use abetter understanding of
international markets and how tobreak into international
markets, either through mergeror through Greenfield or through
alliances or a number of otherways, including just
(07:02):
internationalizing one'sdomestic practices. So having
now been at this for about 12years with workplace legal, I
think that I have a couple ofthings that I may be able to say
of value on the subject normallywhat happens is the usual
scenario that I find, is that alaw firm is thinking about
(07:28):
strategies, thinking about whatare we going to do in the next
three years, next five years?
And very often, what comes up,especially with larger law firms
and a broad variety of practicesis, should we be more
international? Is there a placeto where we should be that we
aren't sometimes the questionis, how are we doing in a
(07:50):
particular place where we are?
Should we get the heck out ofthere? Because it's terrible and
so, so it can be a number ofdifferent things, but that's the
time when I usually get calledin. Sometimes I don't get called
in, but I will call up a contactof mine at a law firm and say,
(08:10):
you know, you guys are doingreally fantastically, but your
practice would be greatlyenhanced if you had an office in
x or if you did this in aparticular region, or if you
paid more attention to thatparticular region or a country.
So that's how it comes about,and the ordinary scenario, and
this is where I want to get tothis interplay that we were
(08:32):
talking about earlier, and whereMurray comes in, and where his
role is so important, and therole of the person who is the
CMO or or similar role is soimportant, and normally what
happens is a person like me willbe talking to the managing
partner, senior partner,management committee, or maybe
(08:55):
even a strategy committee. Inother words, a partner led
exercise within the firm, and Iwill be speaking to them. And
it's only really recently thatpeople have begun to realize
that that circle needs to beexpanded a little bit, and that
you need to involve the nonlawyer, or the non practicing
(09:19):
lawyer, executives of the firmin order to formulate, to
disseminate and to ultimatelyexecute strategy. So I find, and
I have found in my work over thepast number of years that having
the involvement of the executiveteam is really, really crucial.
(09:41):
And I think that, Murray, youcan address that because you
you've seen the point at whichinternally, people turn to you
and say, okay, Murray, how do wego about this? And what do we
need to know? What do we need toknow? And what can you tell us
now? About what, what thisoutside guy is telling us about
(10:03):
strategy and what we ought to bedoing. And
Unknown (10:06):
I think that that the the the idea of sort of
expanding that circle andexpanding it earlier is is the
right one. And I've been in bothsituations where, you know, it
just kind of gets dropped onyour lap. And you are whether
it's a domestic opening, adomestic office, bringing in a
(10:26):
bringing in a large group, or aninternational cross border
situation, gets dropped in yourlap, and you can't do your best
job when it's just dropped inyour lap. These are very
complicated. And Rob, I knowyou, you're very you're very
aware of this, the complicatedaspects of these kinds of
(10:47):
transactions. And it's not justcomplicated because, you know,
there's there's business,there's complex business issues
at play. There are, but you'realso in a partnership setting.
You're also in a setting inwhich you have sort of all the
eyes on you, and we know whathappens sometimes, when, when,
when the message gets out beforethe firm is ready to have it get
(11:07):
out, and all those eyes are onyou, and doesn't happen that
looks bad for both both firms.
So what, what I have worked onwith leadership at firms that
I've worked with is to say, hey,you know what? The earlier we
can get in, the better the jobthat we can do, and we can help
you be more informed about that,because we take those of us who
(11:28):
are on the growth side, and Ihope that you know any CMOS that
are listening to this, or headsof business development that
might be listening to this, youare, you are part of the growth
equation for your firm, and youshould be thinking about about
that, your role in that and inthat role you need to, you need
to make sure that you'rethinking very clearly about how
(11:49):
you assist the firm andunderstanding what this growth
will mean. So you're, you shouldbe looking at the client base
with with, with it, with, with,with more detail and at a
greater sort of granular level.
And maybe the partners are, orthe or the managing partner is,
is doing and reallyunderstanding, sort of where the
(12:10):
source of volume is. And youknow, you're not going to be
able to pull the plug on aninternational expansion if it
needs to have the plug pulled,but you can certainly, you can
certainly create, create enoughquestions so that people can be
asking the right questionsabout, let
Rob Bata (12:27):
me, let me just go back, because you mentioned a
very important word here, whichis, which is clients. And after
all, that's what, that's whatdrives law firms, and that's
what law firms ought to bepaying attention to. More than
anything else, more thangeography, more than how many
foosball tables you get in yourrec room. It's clients, and we
(12:47):
know that. So I simplifiedthings earlier on when I said,
you know, I'll approach a firmand say, shouldn't you be doing
x? Or a firm approaches me andsays, we're thinking about x
before those approaches happen,both sides do a great deal of
analysis. I follow trends inaround the globe about what law
(13:11):
firms are doing, what specificpractices are doing, where
economies are headed, what thegeopolitics are that may drive
the direction of the dollar, ifyou will, one way or another. So
there's a good deal ofanalytical thinking, first, I
think, on both sides, on the lawfirm side and on the on the
(13:32):
consultant side. But where thosereally meet is clients. So
understanding what your clientswant, what your clients need,
and how best to serve them, andwhere best to serve them, that
comes together with realconsultation. And that's where I
(13:56):
also think what you were saying,Murray, is so important that
you're looking at those clientlists, and you're looking at
client performance, you'relooking at perhaps client teams
and the message that they'vebeen putting out thanks to your
team, to their clients, andunderstanding how you can advise
(14:17):
Law Firm leadership about whatmay be suitable for clients and
what may not be, what may workand what may not work. And I
think that that's really key,because it comes down to that
ultimately, if, if a if anexpansion is just a vanity
project, or if it only serves avery small group of partners, or
(14:39):
if, for some reason it's donejust because everybody else is
doing it. It's not going towork. It only works if the
firm's clientele, by and large,is going to understand that this
is good for them, and of course,for them to understand that
other. Then, of course, thelawyers talking to their clients
(15:02):
and explaining it. The messagehas to come from you. The
message has to come from thepeople who really understand how
to deliver a message. But beforeyou get there, there's internal
messaging. So before you get tothat point, you need to be able
to work with the people youknow, with the partners that you
(15:23):
work with and that you work for,and be able to say to them,
Look, here is why this wouldwork. But more important, here's
how we explain why this wouldwork. And by the way, if you
were skeptical, here are some ofthe reasons that you might
(15:44):
consider why this actually was agood idea.
Unknown (15:48):
Yeah. And as a as a communications professional,
which is part of part of my, myjob, it really is sort of
burrowing into the the reasoningfor this and and being able to
help the management teaminternally express it in a way
that is consistent with firmculture, and also provide the
(16:10):
partners with tools to talk totheir clients about it, or to or
to, you know, ping their clientsa little bit and find out if
this would matter to them andand, you know, unfortunately,
not, not part, I shouldn't sayunfortunately, fortunately,
partners are getting better andbetter about talking about the
business of the firm with theirclients, because the clients
(16:31):
actually do care about thebusiness of your firm, their
business people, and so theywant to know that you're
thinking very rationally andreasonably about your business
and why you're doing what you'redoing. But the the the the
International, internationalgrowth doesn't mean that you
suddenly have two of everyeverybody it. It means that you
(16:55):
may have a couple of extra handson deck. Once, the once the the
merger happens, but generallyspeaking, it means that the that
the team that has been workingwith, working and running the
firm day to day, has additionalresponsibilities. And that's a
there's communications that haveto be, you know, that have to be
(17:16):
framed around that verycarefully, because it's, it is,
it is additional work. Those ofus who enjoy growth say that's
good work. That's great work. Welike to we like to engage in
that. That's not the case foreverybody in the firm, even the
other even the other lawyers atthe firm. So there is, there's a
lot of consideration on theinternal messaging, and then
(17:39):
there's also the external can.
The external happens once, theonce that, once the the final
decision has been made to pursuethis. Not the paper. The ink is
not dry on the on the mergerpapers yet, but that, that
decision is, we're going to dothis. This is, this is going to
happen. That's when my teamshould be. They should have
(17:59):
already been fully engaged, butnow we should really be deep
into it, thinking through howwe're going to communicate this
in the marketplace, which I haveto say, you know, working with
Rob on that, on that merger thathe and I worked on. Unlike other
people in Rob's position, Robwas at the table for those
discussions as well. Rob wasweighing in, Rob, you know, not
(18:22):
micromanaging it by in stretchof the imagination, but helping
in a in a very important way, toto couch the to help couch the
messaging. And the earlier wewere able to do that, the again,
the better job that we can do,and the more flexible we can be.
And that's a key to the tocommunications about, especially
(18:45):
the external communicationsabout, about growth in a merger.
And you know, Robert, you'llremember the the incidents that
happened around that, that thatmerger that we were talking
about.
Rob Bata (19:00):
Yes, of course. So and we'll, we'll have a little bit
more detail on that in a minute,but I just, I want to mention
one thing that's important. Fromwhat you said for a consultant,
what's really important is tobelieve in his or her
recommendations and and if youdo, if you really feel that
(19:22):
you've given the right adviceand it's being executed as it
should be, then you shouldbelieve in helping to move it
forward, even after the papershave been signed, even after
everybody's shaking hands, Evenafter the initial press releases
have gone out. You you want tobe there to make sure that it's
(19:45):
going right. That's just alittle bit of consulting. Best
practice. I've never walked awayfrom a situation like that where
two parties agreed to. Dosomething together, and I
thought my work was not I'vealways felt that my work
continues until everyone'ssatisfied, that not only has
(20:09):
some particular transaction beenagreed, but it's actually
rolling down the highway. So Ithink that that's an important
point. Now it's true, thetransaction Murray is referring
to, happened to be right aroundthe time that Brexit was was
voted in,
Unknown (20:28):
like the week of rob the week, it was the week
Rob Bata (20:32):
off. And, you know, I would say 50% of the people in
the world would have thoughtthat that was the worst time to
do a merger, and the other 50%in the world might have maybe
scratched their head about it,but I think we were able to
construct a message with Murray,and Murray got that out there
(20:53):
very effectively, that the thismerger, in fact, works not only
on its own merits, but despitewhat obstacles Brexit might
throw up and in fact, alsocreate certain advantages that
(21:16):
that a non Brexit situationmight not even have had. So that
was quick and nimble thinking,and it was extremely well done.
And it's just one of thosethings we always hope that there
isn't some sort of horribledisaster right around the time
mergers announced. But thathappened to want to be one of
those situations where you hadto act very, very fast and and
(21:40):
make lemonade out of a lemon, ifyou will. And
Unknown (21:45):
please go ahead, Murray. And the point here is
that that we have thatflexibility, because we were
brought in early into into thediscussions I personally and my
team had already hadrelationships with the partners
on the on the on the thepartners at the firm we were
(22:08):
acquiring with their leadershiphad had good, you know, good
relationships that were goingback and forth. We were all
pretty well versed in why we'redoing this, and what it was
going to bring to the to theclients. We had a, we had a, you
know, we had a we had an onsite, you know, on the ground
(22:30):
agency that we were workingwith, who we brought in very
early, and they were able topivot the the message, but the
the the point being, we were, wewere only able to exercise that
level of flexibility because wehad, we had a deep knowledge of
(22:53):
the of the engagement, a deepknowledge of the transaction at
a and a and a, you know, buddingrelationships with people on on
both sides of the Atlantic onthat one, and
Rob Bata (23:03):
it ultimately it all made sense. And of course,
that's remained a verysuccessful law. Oh yeah, I'm
gonna ask you a tough question.
One of the things that you findI've written an article that
gets republished from time totime, that's titled 15 ways to
screw up your internationalmerger. And one of the things I
(23:24):
talk about is what drives aninternational merger if, let's
say it's one partner or smallgroup of partners who believe
that their practice wouldbenefit without really regard to
anybody else, but their practicewould benefit if you were in
country X or region y. But itactually isn't that great. It's
(23:50):
not that important for the firm,and it might be additional
management resource wasted andso forth. How? How does one deal
with the sort of the kind ofenthusiast who really wants to
be somewhere where the firmisn't but it doesn't make the
(24:12):
best sense is that the kind ofsituation where you and and
people in your position canactually play their role.
Unknown (24:27):
The way that we play a role there, Rob is, if that
partner is really pursuing workin that geography, and maybe
they're successful in thatgeography, we'll find ways to
support them and support them onthe ground. So we might find, we
might find on the ground groupsthat we can work with. We I've
(24:48):
done this in Mexico City. I'vedone this in in in, you know,
Rio, where we, where we had anoffice for a while, where, where
you've where you you havepeople. And this is, this is the
important thing. This is why youneed. To need to really think
this stuff through. You need to,you need to help that partner
localize their messaging andlocalize what they're doing and
how they're approaching themarket. And oftentimes they'll
(25:10):
have some relationships there,but they won't have, they won't
have business supportrelationships there. And I'm not
talking about secretarialsupport or or drivers or things
like that, but, people who canbe Sherpas and translators. And
when I say translator, I don'tmean language, but I mean
business translators with theselawyers, because you know you
(25:33):
that that might, it might turninto, it might turn into an
office at some point. So you,you're you, you're also sort of
laying the, laying thegroundwork that you know, let's
see what we can do in thisjurisdiction, and maybe we,
maybe we do now, you know, I hadpartners that I worked with who
were doing a lot oftransactions, oil and gas
(25:55):
transactions in Africa, andthere just wasn't, we just
weren't going to open an officeIn West Africa, and they
weren't. They weren't, theyweren't advocating that we
opened an office in West Africa,but we did find ways for them to
get out and market on theground, you know, and not just
and not just in, not just in,you know, going to see their
(26:17):
clients, etc, but, but, youknow, finding conferences that
are related to, you know,development in West Africa, and
finding, finding journals wherethey could, they could write,
really, you know, some basicblocking and tackling. But it's
it. It does it. Oftentimes cansort of quiet down that
(26:37):
immediate, you know, knee jerkreaction of we need to have an
office on the ground in Mali
Rob Bata (26:43):
so you can, so you can. So basically you you've
been able to sort of gentlysteer them away from kind of
world reading ambition, but atthe same time, we're able to
persuade them that there areother ways of of expanding, that
that their ability to projecttheir footprint, their profile,
(27:04):
their presence, withoutnecessarily going going all the
way by acquiring an office oropen in Greenfield
Unknown (27:13):
and making sure that we have the budget and the
management support we do. You doneed that as well, as long as
the management understands thatthe budget that you're going to
be that you're asking for, andit usually is not budget that
you anticipated, is going to beused carefully and and is going
to be managed carefully. You canusually get that, especially if
(27:34):
you've got a partner who'sreally, really needs, really
says, Hey, we've got someopportunities here. I got to be
on the ground. I got to jointhese organizations, I've got to
get a leadership position, etc.
So those are and oftentimes I'vehad, I've, you know, more than
once I've had a managing partnercome and say, hey, you know this
partner really wants to, reallywants to burrow into this
particular area. Can you givesome special resources to this
(27:55):
person for a limited amount oftime to see what we can, what we
can come up with. And sometimesit works. Sometimes it doesn't,
but, but, but, you know, youlearn pretty quickly that no is
not a word that that that youuse often in a law firm, there's
different there's artful ways ofsaying no. That could be a whole
podcast in and of itself. Rob,yes,
Rob Bata (28:17):
it's artful persuasion. Is, is, is quite an
important talent. I think that,I think we've now laid the
groundwork for what it is thatwe're trying to convey in this
podcast. We've ranged a littlebit back and forth and future
podcasts, we're going tocontinue to talk about the
mechanics. Also, we'll have someguests on Murray. You and I have
(28:41):
talked about having people fromfor example, from outside PR or
lawyers who handle partnershipmergers and so forth. We'll be
announcing those. But I thinkthat, for starters, we've
probably managed to stake outsome decent ground for the
understanding of what theinterplay is between the outside
(29:03):
consultant and the in house, nonlawyer, executive. And I think
if you have something else onthat, chances are maybe we
should. We should keep that foranother podcast. Yeah,
Unknown (29:20):
I agree. And I, you know, I think we've, we've,
we've laid that groundwork. Whatwe haven't done, though, Rob is
what will be my favorite part ofthese podcasts, and that's Bata
best bet, and so and so. Thisis, this is a ROB Bata. Rob
Bata, 50,000 foot view on, on,sort of where you, where, where
(29:43):
you, where you might be thinkingabout putting your your next
office or group of lawyers orlift out, or whatever it might
be. So Rob, and we'll have atrumpet drill at some point,
Rob, I promise you. But Rob,what's your best bet?
Rob Bata (29:57):
Well, my best bet, and, and I. Think my best bet
may not always be about where itmight be about just what's
happening, but my best bet rightnow, I have to say, is Singapore
is an extremely vibrant economiccenter. Over the past couple of
years, while I've seen andworked with some of eight to 10
(30:23):
law firms opening up offices inSingapore. Some law firms have
expanded dramatically. Look,Singapore is is first of all, a
hub for Southeast Asia, so andreally even reaching into China.
Second, Singapore is nowbecoming a hedge against Hong
Kong, where circumstances havebecome a little bit difficult,
(30:46):
although that may be changing,but I do think it's a hedge.
Singapore has an extraordinarilylively Investment Fund, so
private equity, private wealth,maritime insurance and and, of
course, oil and gas energy andLNG practice, not to mention
(31:08):
arbitration and litigation withtheir special International
Commercial Court and theirarbitration center. So my bet
for now is if, if we're thinkingabout what makes sense, and
remember, it's not for everyone,but if you're in an appropriate
practice area, Singapore is is amust, certainly for the next few
(31:33):
years. And just to, just torattle off a couple of names,
just practically this quarter,or the past two quarters,
Greenberg, traurig, Goodwin,Proctor, the Spanish firm Perez
York, and English firm CharlesRussell speech leads, which is
which is a private wealthspecialist, have all opened
offices just very recently.
Mayor Brown, my friends therejust recently, entered into an
(31:54):
important alliance there. Theyalready had an office, but the
Alliance allows them to practiceSingaporean law. So it is hot,
it's great. It's literally hot,but it's, it's, it's an
excellent place, and it's aplace that welcomes expatriates
as well. That's my
Unknown (32:14):
and it's, yeah, you're right, right on the equator. So
it's, it's always hot there. Andit's a it's also just a great
place to visit. Reallyremarkable when, when you get to
Singapore and see what, whatthey've done with what it was
essentially a rock, but it'scertainly, certainly has matured
substantially in those years, inthe ensuing years. Well, Rob, I
(32:37):
want to thank everybody who'stuned in. And I want to thank
you for for for your brilliantidea of getting this podcast off
the ground and and I lookforward to getting our next, our
next podcast teed up and and outinto the out into the wild.
Rob Bata (32:55):
And thank you, Murray, for being a great partner in
this podcast. You
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.