Ep 4 Poppy Mee: Claiming Your Creative Identity

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This week on the show, I chat with the wonderful Poppy Mee! Actor, theatre maker, writer and clown.

Fresh off the Adelaide Cabaret Festival, Poppy talks about how cabaret strips away the rules and gives performers space to actually bloom. It’s raw, messy, and all about real connection with an audience, the kind of honesty actors are usually told to hide.

We dive into her solo show Psychopomp, born from an existential spiral and turned into something funny, profound, and beautifully interactive. It’s about death, legacy, and asking yourself: what story will you tell the boatman?

At the core of our chat is a moment every actor will relate to. Realising “if I don’t call myself an actor, no one else will.” We talk about that shift from waiting to be picked to finally owning your identity as an artist.

You’re gonna get a lot out of this one.


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name's Poppy Mee and you should go pluck yourself
.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
We did it, guys.
I made it to the shoot withsomewhat of a voice.
It was touch and go for aminute there, but I did the
shoot.
It was awesome.
Welcome to Go.
Pluck Yourself the Actor'sPursuit.
My name is Chris Gunn.
Before we get into today'sepisode with the wonderful Poppy
Mee, I'm going to ask you allto do one thing today to really
help the show.
If you're watching on YouTubeor listening on whatever podcast
platform you prefer, please dous a favor and hit that follow

(00:37):
button.
I am so grateful for theresponse that this show has had
so early in its life and I knowthat I bark a million things at
you each episode.
You know subscribe, share, signup to the patreon, blah, blah,
blah.
But at this early stage of thepodcast, hitting that subscribe
button really gives thealgorithm a lovely little boost
and helps to find its audience.
So please hit the follow orsubscribe button wherever you're

(00:58):
listening or watching.
So I have just come back fromshooting the most beautiful
scene in the most amazing filmthat I'm so grateful to have
been a part of, and I can't saywhat it is because of NDAs and
all that.
But the director is a reallyold friend of mine and now
they're a massive superstar andI'm so impressed and unsurprised
by their success because theyare endlessly talented and they
absolutely deserve every bit ofsuccess that comes their way.

(01:20):
I'm buzzing, and I'm alwaysbuzzing after a shoot.
I'm reminded why I love this somuch.
Nothing brings me more joy thanto do this work and to play and
to be creative with old friendsand now heroes of mine.
I'm grateful, man, I'm reallygrateful.
But, holy heck, man, it nearlydidn't happen.
So since recording my podcastlast week so that was on Tuesday
the next day, I completely lostmy voice, like it was gone.

(01:42):
I could not make a squeak.
So I lost my voice on Wednesdayand I was meant to be shooting
on Friday and by the time Fridaycame around, I literally had no
voice.
But by the grace of the filmgods, they moved the shoot to
Tuesday this week, which istoday.
So I ran to the doctor and Isaid, hey, man, I need to get my
voice back, and he gave me thissteroid anti-inflammatory and

(02:06):
still, by Saturday, I still didnot have a voice and I was
freaking out.
I messaged my agent and I waslike dude, I don't know if I can
do this film.
I think I'm gonna have to pullthe pin and luckily on Sunday
morning I could talk.
I could just talk and by MondayI was like I can actually carry
a conversation now and my voicemight be husky and I and I
might have pneumonia, but I canspeak and I did the scene and it
worked and it was great and Icould do the movie and I'm so

(02:27):
grateful and I'm really excitedto share this episode today with
you guys.
My guest today is a very goodfriend of mine, poppy Mee.
Poppy is an actor, she's atheater maker, she's a writer,
she is a clown I mean, she doesit all.
She's professionally trainedand she is oh so talented.
I met Poppy at an actingworkshop and I don't know if you
guys are seeing a pattern here,but most of my friends on this

(02:48):
show so far I've met at actingworkshops.
So if you need one more reasonto sign up to a reputable
workshop, go and do it.
Go spend a weekend with otheractors, analyzing scripts,
watching each other's work.
I guarantee you're going tofind your community.
You're going to make friends.
Poppy recently completed a runof her own solo show that she
wrote Psycho Pomp, which we talkabout in this episode.

(03:09):
I saw it twice at the AdelaideFringe.
It was fantastic.
She also brings up somethingreally interesting in this
conversation the idea of askingfor permission, like permission
to act or to call yourself anactor, which sparked some really
interesting views from both ofus.
She actually asked a lot ofquestions.
I know that I'm the host ofthis podcast, but she seemed to
come in with a bunch ofquestions, which is really sweet

(03:30):
.
What else would we do?
Oh, we don't talk about this inthe chat, but Poppy and I
recently recorded a nice littlescene, just for the hell of it.
You know, she needed somethingfor a show reel and she found a
script, she found a crew, shefound a director and she just
made it happen and it looksgreat.
But yeah, it's just sort of agreat lesson in showing
initiative if you need footage,stop waiting for people to come
to you.

(03:50):
Just go out, find a crew, findsomeone to help help shoot
something and go shoot a scene.
So, yes, that's enough preamble.
Thank you so much for tuning in.
Please subscribe, please follow, share this episode, do all the
things.
Poppy is a wonderful actor.
Please check her out on socials.
I'll put all the relevant linksto her like IMDB and all that
stuff in the show notes.

(04:10):
Please check it out Now.
Please enjoy my most excellentchat with the most excellent
Poppy Mee.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
I had so many good questions and then I asked them
all in the kitchen.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
But I haven't answered them.
Oh yeah, you don't have to askthe questions.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Oh, I need information.
This has got to be worth mywhile.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
We'll get there.
Okay, just trust it, trust me.
So how's Poppy's day been?

Speaker 1 (04:38):
Well, the day started at midnight last night, which
was about when closing night ofCabaret Festival was wrapping up
.
It was very beautiful VirginiaGay passing the torch to Reuben
Kaye as the new artisticdirector, which is amazing, Nice
, but yeah.
So there was this big party,beautiful showcase of the season
, and then dancing and drinkingand partying and got home at

(05:03):
about six.
So that was my day.

Speaker 2 (05:05):
That's a big night.
Yeah, sounds fun, though, oh my.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
God, it was beautiful .

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Where was it all held ?

Speaker 1 (05:10):
It was all at the Festival Centre.
Beauty and the Beast was on inthe main theatre, which is very
strange, did they mind?
Could they hear you in there?
No, but I tell you what I diddo?
I fucked up on opening night.
I fucked up on opening night.
I went there thinking the galawas at the festival center and

(05:32):
then I rocked up and there's abunch of kids and I was like, oh
no, oh no, me and my likecabaret outfit with like zhuzhed
up hair, red lips, like titties, all out everywhere.
it's cabaret, you have to yeahand then I had to hightail it to
the majesty's yeah but yeah, itwas so cool.
The Cabaret Festival isdeveloping a really strong voice
as one of Adelaide's major artsfestivals.
A lot of oxygen is taken upwith Fringe and Adelaide

(05:53):
Festival but Cabaret Festival isgreat because it's such an
incubator for artists and it'ssuch an opportunity to network,
network and, you know, evendoing like a five-minute spot in
someone's show can really likeboost someone's career, can get
you noticed, can get you inrooms with people that you

(06:14):
wouldn't normally get in roomswith.

Speaker 3 (06:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:16):
And Virginia said something so gorgeous.
She said at the gala thatcabaret is a place where you
find an artist's unique qualitylike their little kernel, what
makes them special, and cabaretis the most effective art form
in bringing that to the fore andI was that's interesting.
Why do you think that is?

(06:36):
It's a very vulnerable art formand it's incredibly present and
it's incredibly.
It's a lot similar to clowningin that way, in that it relies
so heavily on the audience andthe performer's connection with
the audience.

Speaker 3 (06:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
It can only be live.

Speaker 3 (06:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
And because of that, like it can be messy and kind of
seem off the rails and be veryraw at times and go wrong.
But I was there with somepeople that I went to drama
school with and it was like huhinteresting that in all of our

(07:14):
training the conversation wasalways about stripping back,
taking away things, sheddingthings, and I think it's kind of
the same process that happens,because eventually you get to
that sort of kernel of someone'ssort of their essential
artistry.
But it seemed like such a morepositive take on that process of

(07:35):
, rather than shedding, it'slike growing and blooming and
blossoming.
And then you know, things thatyou don't need fall away anyway,
but you don't have to.
There was so much emphasis onlosing what doesn't serve you,
rather than digging deep andfinding, like a well of truth.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
What makes you you right?

Speaker 1 (07:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
Yeah, that's really nice and Cabaret does that yeah.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
Very beautifully and I think it's because it's very
immediate.

Speaker 2 (08:07):
It's very in the room and there's so much of the real
you that's present in theperformance or the character
Can't hide.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
A lot of times you're not playing a character.
Well, that's it.
That's what I was going to sayit is just you.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
I don't know much about how Cabaret works in terms
of like.
A lot of it its show tunes yeahyeah, but it's you performing
and you telling the tellingstories through throughout the
music, right, yeah, yeah, whichis such a different angle to
like character acting, yeahscripted theater yeah where you
are things like that you arerelying so heavily on the truth

(08:43):
of who you are and you.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
It forces you to stand on that and to trust that.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Yeah, but that's how you build the connection with
the audience.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
Yeah because they can smell it too.
You can smell when someone'sbeing genuine with you, just
like you can smell when someoneis, when it's coming from a
place of vanity rather thanconnection.
Yeah, yeah, and everyone wasreally hot and sexy, so that's
great.
That's great.
Some stunning voices.

Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Some stunning local talent.
Yeah, it's cool.
It's cool to look at it fromthe perspective of, like a
theatre maker.

Speaker 3 (09:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
It's a very different kind of category of performance
but there's a lot to be saidfor like feeding in elements of
that cabaret quality of beingpresent with an audience and
reactive, but the show thatyou've just done, yep.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
Psycho Pomp.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
Psycho Pomp.

Speaker 2 (09:38):
That's going to sound great.
It was a different experiencebecause the audience was so
important in that performanceYep, at least when I was there.
It's so interactive and as soonas you walk in the room before
the show's even started.
We're participating.

Speaker 1 (09:53):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
And we don't know what's coming, because you're
giving us a prop.
What do you call them?
Offerings, offerings, and wedon't know what that means yet
you know.
So as soon as you walk in andyou sit down, you're already
like thinking what am I going tobe doing with this?

Speaker 1 (10:10):
What did you have?
You had an apple.

Speaker 2 (10:12):
I think I had an apple.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
Yeah for a brave soul .

Speaker 2 (10:14):
Yeah, yeah Well, you know your show well I did it.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
The apple was always for a brave soul.
No, you shouldn't give it away,or the cucumber was always for
a brave soul, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
An extra brave soul.
I'm not that, but yeah, it feltvery clowny.
And again, this is not my.
I mean, I grew up clowning, butit's not my forte.
I don't really, I don'tunderstand what it all is, you
know, it's really a differentlike what we would consider
clowning with children.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, it's quite different from the sort of
performance style of clowning.
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know how to juggle.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
See, that was my thing.

Speaker 1 (10:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
We were juggling in, unicycling, oh man, and doing
magic.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
I really wish I did circuits.
Did you do circuits?

Speaker 2 (10:58):
I did it for a little bit.
My dad taught me everythingRight, Because he this sums up
my dad.

Speaker 1 (11:03):
Oh, I think he's shown me photos of him at like
Sterling Pageant, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:07):
He still does the pageant.
Amazing, he's the best.
There's a video of me, at twoyears old, sitting on the bed
with dad and he's teaching me tojuggle and I'm just like
holding the juggling bowls, justdoing this and yeah, that's.
I guess that's where it allstarted.
You know the performance stuff.

Speaker 1 (11:24):
But there's like, even without juggling if you
took that away and there wasstill that, because what he's
doing, what I would imagine hewas doing with you, was like
talking to you about it and likegetting excited when you were
getting excited and beingcurious about what you're
curious about.
That is very much like I am avery baby clown.

(11:46):
I'm not like.
I know people who you knowspent two years at Goliad and
stuff like that.
I only went for five weeks, soI'm not like an expert by any
means.
But what I love about it andwhat I found very liberating
after going through like quite astrict sort of style of
training, was just followingimpulses and following those

(12:10):
impulses with an audience yeahand that thing of like.
You're allowed to go off scriptif you do something and the
audience laughs like notice ityeah, and do it again yeah like.
That's exactly what you do witha baby right, yeah, yeah.
Like, how many times can youplay peek-a-boo, because the
child's never going to get sickof it.
You only stop doing the thingthat is making them laugh when

(12:32):
they stop laughing.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:33):
And then you find something else to make them
laugh.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, that's so interesting, so you wrote Psycho
Pomp yes.

Speaker 1 (12:47):
And like where, like where did the genesis of all
this begin?
Depression, okay, living inMelbourne, spending a winter in
Coburg, yeah, post-covid, therewas this like burst of sort of
activity that hadn't reallyhappened since I'd finished
drama school, yeah, and I'd justcome back from London and I
sort of had whiplash from COVID,sort of turning my life upside
down.

Speaker 3 (13:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
What I really wanted to do was go back to London but,
I, couldn't.
So instead I moved to MelbourneRight, ostensibly to start a
Masters of Screenwriting becauseI had, throughout 2021, written
my first solo show SlightExaggeration which was kind of
about my experiences in London.
You know how everyone's firstsolo show is like a shitty

(13:26):
autobiographical, likeconfessional.
Here's my trauma.
Yeah, yeah, it was so bad butit was fun.
No, you've got to.
You have to do the first oneYou've got to do them you have
to do.
You have to like what we did atthe start Get it out of your
system when we just talked shitfor 10 minutes.
Yeah, Get it out of your systemwhen we just talk shit for 10
minutes.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, you have to do that.
Yeah, I haven't done mine yet Ihaven't written anything.
But, that being said, I'm likeI should write a film about
alcoholism and then that'll bedone.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
Yeah, You'll do it, and then you'll be like okay.

Speaker 2 (13:57):
I've done that.
Now.
Yeah, I the geographical thing,anyway.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
So I had written a bunch in that year, yeah, and I
was like I want to move intoscreen stuff I don't know how,
there's not really a whole bunchof it in Adelaide.
So I applied and got into theMasters of Screenwriting at VCA
Nice and I hated it.
Oh, I hated it.
I left after a semester andthen I was just in Melbourne.
Yeah, I hated it.
I left after a semester andthen I was just in Melbourne and

(14:25):
I was working shitty retailjobs and not pursuing acting.
Covid had really sort of thrownme and I really had to build
myself back into what I thoughtmy life was going to, what path
I thought I was on, got superdepressed and got super
existential.
I was about to turn it was likelate 20s, I was about to turn

(14:48):
30 and I had this like time isrunning out.
Yeah, what the fuck am I doing?
But I'm stuck here and I'm, youknow, working a crap job to pay
rent in my crap share house,not pursuing what I love.
Because the reason I got intoacting was to because I found it
like a place where I couldconnect with other people.

(15:08):
Yeah, youth theatre.

Speaker 2 (15:10):
Yeah, I'm seeing a common thread from my guests
Really, and me the connectionwith like communities, yes.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
Especially if you didn't you know, really fuck
with school or you maybe were inthe wrong school.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:25):
I went to a very academic school and they didn't
give a fuck about drama or evenwriting to a certain extent.

Speaker 3 (15:35):
But like anything creative, no, I'm not really
kidding.

Speaker 1 (15:39):
It was like, okay, you're going to get into
Adelaide Uni and go and doengineering Great Back to
Melbourne.
Yeah, melbourne Got depressed.
Yeah, got Adelaide Uni and goand do engineering Great Back to
Melbourne.
Yeah, melbourne Got depressed.
Yeah, got really depressed.
Didn't know what to do.
What year was this?
That was 2023 by that stage.
Okay, and I had made, I haddone like this little show that
was like a devised Melbournefringe fun little project and

(16:04):
that was like all that waskeeping me afloat.
Yeah, and someone had suggesteda friend had just got back from
Goliad, right, and they hadgotten a lot out of it and I was
like I need to find out if Istill love acting.
I haven't really done it for agood long while and Goliad I
wasn't good at, but theexperience just going, just for

(16:26):
anyone that's listening thatdoesn't know what, oh sure, uh,
Ecole Philippe Goulier is a veryfamous, very prestigious uh
specialty clowning performanceschool, um, in a little town
called Etampes, which is an hoursouth of Paris, and it taught.
It's named after PhilippeGoulier, who is now.
He doesn't teach anymore, he'svery old, but your classic

(16:51):
French like stereotypical, wherethe beret has red round glasses
and a beard and crazy wild likewiry hair and he sits with his
drum and if he does not love youhe bangs the drum and he tells
you to get the fuck off thestage.
Wow, it's great terrible frenchaccent, but he, like his thing

(17:13):
is.
Uh, he makes up very creativeinsults yeah or like threatens
you cool, violence, cool.
It's hilarious because, like forme, his thing was my name.
It was like where are you fromAustralia?
Yeah, what is your name?

(17:34):
Poppy, ridiculous name.
This is the name you would giveto a dog.
Oh, that's amazing.
Like someone would be up theretrying their best on some sort
of improv thing.
He would bang his drum and godo we love her or do we think

(17:55):
she should never have children?

Speaker 2 (17:58):
Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
And there's like a whole, because he'd been
teaching for decades and decadesand decades.
So there's like Facebook groupsof people's like best Goliath
insults.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
I see, I see Okay.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
And people go at various points in their lives
and careers for variousdifferent reasons.
Some people who are therearen't even actors.

Speaker 3 (18:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:20):
They just want this experience, they just want to be
insulted.
Yeah, and what it does do isyou go.
You know, he tells you thatyour shit, get off the stage and
then get back on the stage.
Yeah, okay, because what he'strying to get you to do
essentially is to, in the nicestpossible way, like kind of tell

(18:41):
him to go fuck himself and belike no, this is my stage right
I see, this is my room, this ismy audience yeah they love me
yeah I love them.
Uh, and if you can do that withlike an old french man screaming
at you, then you no audience isgoing to be harder than that
yeah so if you can do that andyou love it and you want to get

(19:05):
back on stage when he tells youto fuck off, it's a very I mean,
it's not for everyone.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah, it sounds like it might be illegal somewhere.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
If you've got anything, you know it's very
intense.
And if you've got, like ifyou're working through some
mental health stuff or somethinglike that, I wouldn't recommend
it.
Yeah, like if you're workingthrough some mental health stuff
or something like that, Iwouldn't recommend it.
Yeah, but for me it was sort ofa big shot in the arm of like,
do you give a fuck about this ornot?
And that was when I came upwith the idea for Psycho Pump.

(19:36):
I'd heard the word.
I write a lot of my shows basedon the title.

Speaker 2 (19:41):
Well, it's a great, it's such a good word, it's such
a Psycho Pump.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
Yeah, do you want?
Etymology, do you want?

Speaker 2 (19:46):
word origins.

Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:48):
So psychopomp comes from ancient Greek Psyche soul,
pompos conductor or to conduct,as in like pomp and ceremony, or
pomp and circumstance.
So yeah a soul conductor,conductor of souls and

(20:10):
psychopomps exist in allmythologies, all religions, all
folklore.
They are the being, whether itbe like a demigod or some sort
of like weird creature, or likeCharon the boatman, the person
who, like ferries people overthe River Styx.

(20:32):
Classic example I was talkingto someone at Goliad who was
Chinese and they said, ah, oursis Meng Po.
Meng Po is an old woman who youcross over a bridge with.
There's always some sort ofthreshold when you're crossing
from life to death or throughdeath into whatever.
Whatever.
Meng Po gives you like a tea todrink or something, and it's

(20:55):
the tea of forgetting.
I think it's tea.
It might be soup, right, somesort of liquid.

Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
So that you can move on into your next life.
So you forget your old life canmove on into your next life.
So you forget your old life,you move on into your next life
and I was fascinated with this,and I was fascinated with like,
what that figure represents ifyou were to come at it from the
perception of like.
Okay, so that's a humaninvention, because we need
someone there.

Speaker 3 (21:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
We need someone there to sort of witness our crossing
.
What's that character?
Yeah, okay, and what would theythink of humans?
And what would they think ofwhat they discover about humans
at this incredibly crucial point.
And I was really existentialand like thinking about death

(21:41):
and shit.

Speaker 2 (21:42):
What I love about your show is it makes you
reflect very heavily on yourlegacy.
You know, because the questionis and this is a spoiler, but
the question is, what are yougoing to tell?

Speaker 1 (22:04):
the boatman.
What's your story going to be?
What's?

Speaker 2 (22:05):
your story.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
I left that show feeling like holy shit, yeah,
it's that existential, like whatam I doing?
What is my story going to be?

Speaker 3 (22:16):
Yeah it was great and what's important.

Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah, what's important.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
Because that was something that I reflected on of
like we're in an industrythat's very like there are very
clear markers of success.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:30):
How much value are you setting on those of like
getting roles, getting work,winning awards?

Speaker 3 (22:37):
stuff like that.

Speaker 1 (22:39):
Versus the experience of doing what you're doing.
Yeah, the experience of beingin a room with other people
telling stories.

Speaker 2 (22:46):
Yeah, and that's for us.
Yeah, you know that's somethingthat we can relate to because
that's the industry we're in.

Speaker 1 (22:52):
But I hope people that saw that show whatever
they're Most people came out ofit pretty like, sort of like,
with some motivation.

Speaker 3 (23:01):
Yeah, I think that's what I felt.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
I got to you know chase experiences that are going
to be a good story.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
Yeah, it kind of motivates you to fill your life
with something beautiful,beautiful things, you know.

Speaker 1 (23:17):
Yeah.
And that's what art's meant todo, right, that's.
The thing is that that's what Ineeded.
Yeah, that's what art's meantto do, right, that's the thing
is that that's what I needed.
Yeah, and I wanted toinvestigate it in terms of
clowning, because I tell youwhat I hate TED Talk theatre.
I want to see the art.
Yeah, okay, I understand thatyou've got this thing that you
want to talk about Like for me,death, existential, dread time,

(23:46):
time passing, opportunities lost.
You can't get up on stage andsay that.

Speaker 2 (23:55):
No, you can't say guys, make sure you fill your
life with beauty.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
Yeah, like why is it theatre then?

Speaker 3 (24:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
Make it into art.
Yeah, be nice to your audience.
Yeah, make it into art.
Yeah, be nice to your audience.
Yeah, it's entertainment.
Yeah, let them.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Take out of it what they need.
To take out of it, they'll getthere.
Yeah, that's what Phoebe.

Speaker 1 (24:15):
Waller-Bridge said something about that is like you
reel them in and then, whenthey realise what you're talking
about, it's like a sucker punch, which is great.

Speaker 3 (24:25):
It's very satisfying for an audience to be like oh,
yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
But if you go in being like this is about how
much I'm scared of dying, atleast make it funny.

Speaker 3 (24:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
I think you did it beautifully.
Thank you, and you got a.
I saw a five-star review.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
Yeah, oh my God, that was wild, I mean, I would have
given it a five stars if I hadthat platform, you didn't have a
media pass, did you?

Speaker 2 (24:49):
I didn't, I'm no one.
Where did you just take it?

Speaker 1 (24:58):
So I took it over to Pride Fest at Qtopia Sydney.
Qtopia is a really cool.
It used to be the oldDarlinghurst police station and
the first Pride march thathappened in Sydney.
The people that got arrestedwere taken to the Darlinghurst
police station and now it islike a museum slash art gallery

(25:18):
of like the queer history ofSydney, and at the front of it
is an old electricity substationthat they've made into a
theatre.
Amazing, yeah, and yeah, I hadno audiences.
I don't know anyone in Sydneyoh, so it was quiet.

Speaker 2 (25:32):
Oh oh, that's rough.
Yeah, it was bad.
Like how many people?

Speaker 1 (25:36):
uh, so I had booked three shows.
We consolidated into two showsokay um and like moved some
people's tickets around, but thefirst night was seven people.
The second night was about 10,a good portion of which were the
volunteers from the venue.
But someone in those 17 peoplewas an answer reviewer and they

(26:01):
gave me five stars.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
Well, jokes on everyone that didn't go.

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Jokes on everyone that didn't go Apparently
everyone that didn't go.
Yeah, apparently sydney is verysydney.
Audiences are veryweather-based because they have
such nice weather.
Yeah, if it's not nice weatherthey're like well, why would I
go out?

Speaker 2 (26:15):
I'm not going to sit in a yeah indoor theater if it's
raining yeah, melbourne people,on the other hand, melbourne
they're used to it are likenothing.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
Stop me, not like the devil himself.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
So writing your own material is it's a choice.
It's very brave.

Speaker 1 (26:33):
It was out of necessity, man.

Speaker 2 (26:34):
That's a good reason to do it.
That is a good reason youactually you had something to
get out, you know.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
Yeah, but also, I wasn't getting any acting work.
I was like.

Speaker 3 (26:44):
So what did you do about it?

Speaker 2 (26:46):
You made something.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
That was kind of how I was.
A lot of my formative trainingwas in like devising theatre.
Okay.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
So how was that feeling of like putting
something so personal out therein the world and hoping people
will rock up and understand itand get the right message from
it?
Oh, good question.
And the fear I mean even theexperience of performing it in
Sydney for two nights to a smallaudience, I think I what is

(27:17):
that for you Like?
What does that feel like foryou?

Speaker 1 (27:20):
I think over the course of the shows that I've
done so.
I've done two solo shows nowand I did.
I've done three seasons ofPsychopomp now.
I think especially this last goround I really wanted to push
myself to not spoon feed theaudience because the temptation

(27:41):
is you want to control theirreactions because, you want your
message to be clear, yeah, butto be able to trust that I can
do less, I can use less words.
I don't need to explain myself,basically.

Speaker 3 (27:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (27:58):
People will understand, which was like a
test of, like putting faith inyour own work.
Yeah, which is nice.
Yeah, which is nice.
Yeah, I think like it.
For me, at least, it was amarker of how I've developed as
a writer.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
How do you deal with people like have a tendency to
critique?

Speaker 1 (28:21):
Critics often do yeah , yeah, but like non-critics are
critical too, you know yeah.
I mean that Usually not to yourface, which is fine, which is?

Speaker 2 (28:31):
good, that's fine, they can keep it to themselves.
But, like, the thing I finddifficult is when people give me
feedback and I'm like I didn't,it was what it was, I made it.

Speaker 3 (28:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:48):
I can see the flaws in it myself.
I could probably.
I can learn from my ownmistakes, you know.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, retrospectively .
You see it from inside it.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, and there are certain people that I trust for
feedback directors, other actorsthat I trust as feedback
directors, other actors that Itrust as like friends or peers.
Am I off?

Speaker 1 (29:09):
track here.

Speaker 2 (29:11):
But when people give you feedback and you're like
cool man, I didn't ask for thatand it was what it was for you.
I mean, the risk of puttingsomething out there that you've
made is so high in terms ofdamage to yourself.
You know, and you're writingyour own stuff.

Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
It's very brave.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Especially from like something from a personal
experience.
My experience has usually beenpeople being like I can't
fucking do that.

Speaker 3 (29:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:44):
Even if what I've made was shit making something,
no one can really do that.
Yeah, Even if what I've madewas shit making something no one
can really touch.
That that's how I feel about it.
I'm not.
I'll hear, like you know,sometimes someone will comment
something mean and I'll be likefuck you.
But if the person who'soffering you critique or
criticism is speaking the samelanguage as you are,

(30:05):
artistically, creatively, Ifthey're in the world and they
understand what you're trying toget to, yeah, they actually are
trying to be constructive.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
I love notes, I love notes, I love notes.
But also those people tend tohave a tact in that they gauge
with you whether you're open fornotes.
Some people come at you and goyou should have done this and
you're like fucking thanks, ohyeah.

Speaker 1 (30:39):
I don't give a fuck what anyone says who's not like
my.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
Do you want to go there, or what is it?

Speaker 1 (30:50):
My dad.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
Okay, we don't have to keep this in Will.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah, no, well, you know maybe, but like you know
how there's always that thing oflike you're your own worst
critic.

Speaker 3 (31:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:00):
My dad's approval really means a lot to me because
he is so and he will not sparefeelings.
And when I first did PsychoPump, I remember him.
He drove me home.
He picked me up from thetheatre and drove me home,
having seen the show, yeah, andhe was looking at me like you

(31:22):
really did something that's, youknow, really impressive and
stuff, and I was like what, Ididn't know how to take it.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
Because usually he'll be like okay, ah, okay, like he
will.

Speaker 3 (31:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
It will often be some sort of slightly scathing
critique that will make me cry,and he's not, you know, in the
arts.
He's just my dad and we'recursed with wanting our parents'
approval.
I guess, yeah, but I mean whenmy family come to a?

Speaker 2 (31:56):
show.
Yeah, those are the people.
I'm like guys was it good?
They'll always say, yeah, man,yeah, we're so proud of you.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
And I'm like I don't even want you to tell me if it
wasn't good I just I think mydad I think the point I'm trying
to make is my dad is the oneperson who has no, is not yeah a
writer is not a.
He's like a well-read dude but,he's not in the creative
industry but will still give melike the dressing down of my

(32:32):
life, and I had some formativedirectors who would say things
like just act better Helpful.

Speaker 2 (32:43):
That's helpful, that's so helpful.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
Really constructive.

Speaker 2 (32:46):
If only you'd known to act better before I was like
oh yeah, no, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (32:53):
Yeah, and when you're , you know 16, 17,.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
You're like okay, I do need to act better.
I should have thought of thatbefore.

Speaker 3 (33:01):
Do you know how I can act better?
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah, I had some early directors, like at youth
theatre and stuff, who did notmince their words.
Yeah, you learn to know when totake things with a grain of
salt.

Speaker 3 (33:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:13):
You learn when someone's communication style is
just dog shit.
Yeah yeah, but they areactually trying to help you,
even if they're bad at trying tohelp you.
But it does also mean when youfind someone who you can connect
with in a professional context,who you trust and who you want

(33:35):
to critique your work, and whoyou want to because they're,
because you know that they're,they see what you're trying to
do and they want to help you,try to get there yeah even if
it's things that maybe are hardto hear yeah but important to
hear but it's.

Speaker 2 (33:50):
It's about building trust with someone that you
actually respect, and theyrespect you back.

Speaker 3 (33:57):
Yeah, and it's a relationship.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
And you're both trying to, you both have the
same goal.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
I remember I was listening to Emma Freeman, who's
like my favourite Australian.
She directed Stateless, or theepisode of Stateless that I was
on, and she directed theNewsreader oh nice, it's a
fantastic series.
And she did like a Zoom inconversation thing and she was

(34:25):
saying how she would say to AnnaTorv, who's like a fucking
incredible actor, basically likewell, we can't put that on the
telly, can we?
And I was like oh, Wow.
I love you so much.

Speaker 2 (34:42):
Wow, that's brave.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
Because, like, it's what the actor needs to hear.

Speaker 3 (34:46):
Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:47):
But it's a way of going like well, we're in this
together, we're both trying todo our best jobs for ourselves
and each other, and like it'salso fun at the end of the day.

Speaker 2 (34:59):
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
But yeah, finding a director.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
But also, that's what trust is.
Yes, yeah, because you knowthat that director's going to be
honest with you and tell you ifit's dog shit.
Yeah, and I would want to knowif it's dog shit Exactly, you
know.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
What if your dog shit ?
No one tells you.

Speaker 2 (35:17):
Yeah, yeah.
Have you ever had thatexperience where you just need
that validation at the start?
Yes, because I did a film acouple of years ago, with or
Without you, and it was thefirst big film I'd done in a
while and like quite a boldcharacter, and the director

(35:39):
hadn't seen my version of thatcharacter before.
Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
For the audience at home.

Speaker 2 (35:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
Do you want to describe your casting process?

Speaker 2 (35:48):
I didn't even audition for it, I was just
casting it and that's like thiswhere auditions can also be
important because it gives theactor an opportunity to get the
note, to know the character yeah, and and to run it by the
director and be like, okay, isthis the angle, is this the guy?
Yeah, and so the directorhadn't seen that.
And she was great though,because I she came into the

(36:10):
trailer and like had a chat tome before.
And she was great though,because I she came into the
trailer and like had a chat tome before and she's just like I
trust what you're going to doand I'm like, all right, well,
we'll see it on the day, I guess.
And we had a chat about thecharacter and like made sure we
were.
You know we're on the same page, but you know, physically she
hadn't seen any of it.
And I went onto that set.

(36:30):
Physically she hadn't seen anyof it.
And I went onto that set, noone had seen Benny except me and
my sister-in-law who read lineswith me.
But I came onto that set andI've got 50 crew there and the
director who hasn't seen myversion yet, and I was like,
well, fucking, here we go, likeI did a couple of takes and

(36:53):
Melina, who was acting oppositeme she's so sweet, she could
tell that I was looking aroundlooking for Kelly and being like
I just need to know is this?

Speaker 3 (37:04):
it yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
Then I'm good, yeah.
And Melina, just she whispersto me, she's like do you need
validation?

Speaker 3 (37:10):
I was like yeah, I do I need I, just just once.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:15):
She's like it's really good.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:17):
And then Kelly.
I think Kelly clocked on andshe came up to me.
She's like that's Benny.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (37:22):
I was like, oh, thank you, and then we were free and
it doesn't need to be likeblowing smoke up your arse.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
No, you just need to know whether or not you're on
the right track.

Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
We had a thing in drama school, but also like when
I was younger, that like, well,no notes is good notes.
So, if you don't get any notes,then whatever you're doing is
like on the right track.

Speaker 3 (37:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (37:47):
But I think at a certain point you need to
develop your sort of um spideysense yeah before you can
actually know what you're doingconsciously yeah, yeah even as
something as simple as like the,the physicality that you're
working with is yeah is workingwell.
I wouldn't even call itvalidation.

(38:09):
That's direction.
Yeah, yeah, you know, yeah sure.
I mean yeah, that's whatdirection is.

Speaker 2 (38:19):
Am.

Speaker 1 (38:19):
I on the right track, yes or no?

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Yeah, well, yeah, and what about this is working.
Yeah, yeah, it's not theblowing smoke up your ass.
I don't need to be told I'mgood.
Yeah, but I need to be.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
That this is working yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:33):
If it's working or am I fucking way off?
Yes, yeah, but then get thatconversation going.
So I know that we trust eachother and that we are actually
communicating and you would tellme if I was off.
Yes, and the fact that you'renot saying anything is good news
.
But that was a big learningmoment for me, because up until

(38:57):
that point, I hadn't experiencedreally professional directors,
because I'd done a lot ofamateur theatre or student films
or a day play a role on abigger film, but it wasn't about
me at all, you know.

Speaker 1 (39:17):
So I didn't have the time to have that one-on-one.
Yeah, you don't really get theopportunity to work with the
director.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
Yeah, exactly, but the fact that Kelly left us
alone and trusted us and I tookthat as like, why isn't she
telling me what to do?
But you know, obviously, for mewhat I got out of that film was
they don't need to hold my hand, you know, and they trust me
and they know because I'm aprofessional actor.

(39:44):
I've done all the work andwhatever I bring to it they are
happy with and they would tellme if we need to shift.
Yeah, you know, and they trustyour capacity to shift.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
Yeah yeah, if need be .
Yeah yeah, I wanted to talk toyou about this, something that
I'm only starting to sort ofunpick for myself is.
I have always felt that Ineeded permission to do anything
Right.

(40:17):
Okay, to pursue acting in thefirst place.
Yeah, to perform the kind ofwork that I wanted to perform,
to present the way I want topresent.
I always felt that I neededsomeone to give me permission to
do that.

Speaker 3 (40:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
And drama school was, was a thing for me.
This isn't the case foreveryone that goes through like
a you know, three year tertiarytraining, but it was for me.
I needed I needed to go throughdrama school so that I could
call myself an actor.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:47):
Cause, even though I'd been even though I'd been
doing it since I was 16 yearsold and I knew that it was the
thing that I loved.
The thing that I loved, Ididn't feel like I deserved to
call myself an actor untilsecond year drama school.
Okay, Second year.

Speaker 3 (41:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
Not even when I got in.
Yeah, so Shabana is a reallygood example of this.
From the moment I met Shabanaand you, I really had this
notion that you didn't have thatfeeling of I needed someone
else to give me permissionbefore I was allowed to let

(41:24):
myself do this.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
Yeah, that's interesting.

Speaker 1 (41:28):
And I don't know what it's like in your head.
Did you have that or do youcontinue to have that?
Do you have a thing of like?
Someone needs to give mepermission to do this.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
No, because it's not tangible.
What you call yourself.
You don't need necessarily tohave a qualification in this
thing to be it.
When I was younger, I had actedin things and I did drama in
high school and out of highschool, extracurricular things

(42:01):
and in my head once I had donesomething professionally as in
to me, getting paid forsomething, and someone had
trusted me to do it and I felt Ihad done well and I was
starting to understand what itis, I thought, okay, at some
point I'm going to be able tosay to myself you're an actor
now and no one's going to decidethat for me.

(42:24):
I just I defined it myselfbecause I wasn't going to train,
I didn't have time, I kind of Iwas doing other things during
my 20s.
I wasn't even acting for a lotof my 20s.

Speaker 1 (42:38):
So when did that happen, that you got your first
paid gig?

Speaker 2 (42:43):
Well, I mean I had done paid gigs when I was early
20s.
I'd done extra stuff when I wasa teenager.
Early 20s I done extra stuffwhen I was a teenager.
But my first big job was acommercial Crazy K where I
played this rapper that loseshis license.
But it was a big campaign.
It was like three days work andit paid for my van.

Speaker 1 (43:05):
Is that one of the like retro, like no?

Speaker 2 (43:07):
Oh yeah, it was a lose your license, you're
screwed campaign.
But it was so much fun, man,like it was three days of me
improvising.
I love that.
Oh, I love it, I loved it somuch.
The director Robin I justworked with him again like two
weeks ago.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
Oh, was that the Melbourne.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yeah, the Melbourne one, the best guy.
And so was like yeah, man, youknow him.
And he would be like, oh,because it was all improv.
He would be like talk aboutthis, just talk about it.
However it comes out, just makesure you mention this.

Speaker 3 (43:42):
And I would be like oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (43:43):
Rosie hasn't talked to me in like three weeks.
Man, Like I don't care though,because I've got a lineup of
chicks and that.
But you know, and we improv thewhole thing and he cut the
whole thing together in thisreally lovely little
mockumentary about this poor kidthat loses his licence and is
completely tone deaf, you know,Doesn't realise how bad he is at
rapping, Like it's really good.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
Is this on YouTube?
Yeah, yeah, do you have it?

Speaker 2 (44:02):
It's great.
Yeah, I'll show you.
It's fun.
It's my proudest work.
Honestly, it still is Like Ilove it so much.
But so that was like in my Iwas 21 when I did that and then
I played music for years andthen I worked in a warehouse for
three years and a bank, Like Idid everything but acting for a

(44:25):
long time.
But I wanted to pursue music,Like I was busking.
For like three years I wasplaying gigs in pubs full time
for like three years.
That was I wanted to do that.

Speaker 1 (44:36):
That was like scratching the itch kind of
thing.
Well, that was what I wanted tobe.

Speaker 2 (44:40):
I was like I studied film in 2010.
I started busking in 2012.
And then I was like this isgreat, I love.
I mean I still play, I justdon't perform I.
And then I was like this isgreat, I mean, I still play, I
just don't perform.
I've got like I had some vocalissues.
I'm sure it's fixable, but it'sbeen a long time now.
But when I stopped playing music, I was like what's my creative

(45:03):
outlet?
It took me years to realizethat I wasn't pursuing something
creative and I really needed to.
But I had a bank manager likemy supervisor at the bank.
He was like the nicest dude.
He took me into a private roomin the office and he's like look
, you're really good at this andyou could be promoted and be on

(45:25):
200K a year in a few years ifyou wanted to.
But you'd be a banker and youwant to be an actor.
And I was like I do want to bean actor.
He's like what are you doinghere?
I was like I don't fucking know, man, and I quit.
And he was like you can stay,we, We'll promote you, but you

(45:50):
are creative.

Speaker 3 (45:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
You don't want to be in these walls, and I was like,
yeah, dude, so I quit.
I stayed another week and didnothing.
It was awesome, and I took thebank's money.
Yes, yeah, but anyway, what'syour fucking question?

Speaker 1 (46:05):
Oh my God, the sense of permission.
Oh okay, so then?

Speaker 2 (46:09):
around that time I did a play with Red Phoenix,
laramie Project, with Jazz and alot of other really great
actors in Adelaide and that wasa big lightbulb moment for me.
I was like, oh, this is what itis, I get it and I loved it.
And from then on I was like I'mdoing this, I'm pursuing this

(46:33):
and I think around.
Then I was like if I don't callmyself an actor, no one's going
to take me seriously as anactor.
And I always say that castingand producers are not looking
for someone who's kind of anactor.
They're looking for someonethat actually has the confidence
in themselves to call them anactor so that they can be a

(46:54):
professional yeah, yeah, yeahand so it was.
That's the job that you'reapplying for.
It's kind of a fake it till youmake it kind of thing, but only
for me yeah only because, likeif I let the imposter syndrome
take over, I'd be like but youdidn't study or you didn't do
you, you haven't done a film inSydney or something.
It's like no, no, no, I know Ican do it, I know I've made good

(47:17):
stuff before and I know I'vegot more to learn and I'll never
stop learning.
But if I wait for somethreshold where I'm like now I'm
an actor, no, fuck man, I'm anactor now and I'm just going to
get better.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:33):
And I'm only going to get the opportunities.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
Nothing wrong with being a bad actor.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
No.

Speaker 1 (47:37):
As long as you're, you know, trying.

Speaker 2 (47:40):
Yeah, and I've done a lot of bad acting since calling
myself an actor and I'll domore bad acting.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
Yeah, hopefully, yeah , inevitably yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
It will happen.

Speaker 1 (47:52):
Yeah, I find that enviable I find that really
enviable and I wish, at somestage in my earlier life I would
love to work out the root of it.
But I've had like several timesin my life when I've had that
sort of crisis of like, am Idoing this or not?

(48:13):
And I've gone like, well, if Idon't do it, this is the fork in
the road.
Yeah, like a bank manager.
That's happened like a coupleof times because shit gets hard,
covid, yeah.
But yeah, I think that's reallysalient and I think it shows in

(48:34):
your work.
Thanks, man, I really do um andI'm.
I'm saying this like as someonewho's like learning to that,
like the only person who needsto give permission is myself,
but this is something that, like, I have to practice that yeah
and like there's an element ofnot wanting to piss people off,
for me, I think.
But you learn pretty quicklythat, like no one's going to get

(48:58):
pissed off at you for that, no,they want that from you?
Yeah, but I do.
I think it shows in your workand it shows in your work ethic
and your capacity to this is.
This is going to sound silly,but I'm.
When I say your capacity to act, what I mean is to take action.
I see?

Speaker 2 (49:18):
Yeah.
Um yeah, well, and that's whatthe title of this podcast is.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
That's why you got all of this fucking gear
everywhere.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
But I like to play with shit too.
Yeah, you know this is likeI've been collecting this stuff
since the music days.
You know that makes sense, sothat's why I have a lot of it.
Yeah, I mean, most of it isjust music shit.
It really is what you grow upwith.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
hey, because my studio at home is like
whiteboards, like all of thestationary title cards to like,
write scenes up and put them upand then like, and then the
self-test stuff as well.
Yeah, this is why I want towork with someone else's script.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Ah so you've only worked with your own scripts
mainly.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
For the last nearly two years Psychopom has been a
big undertaking, so that's takenup a lot of my time.

Speaker 2 (50:09):
Yeah, but not regrettably.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
No, absolutely not.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
Really amazing, you know.
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (50:17):
Hopefully it gets me another job where someone else
who's an amazing writer writessomething amazing and I can say
their words, because I lovescript analysis.
Yeah, that is like I do thatfor fun.

Speaker 3 (50:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
And like researching, like playwrights and
screenwriters and, yeah,analysing texts.

Speaker 2 (50:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:40):
Big nerd.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
So what's stopping you from finding an opportunity
to work with someone else'swords?
Poppy wants to make somethingwith someone else's writing.
Yeah, I do.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
I want to make something with someone else and
like other people in the fuckingroom, please.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
Yeah, yeah, it's so lonely doing a solo show,
One-person shows yeah.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Even though I had for this last season.
I had, like a director, adramaturg, my friend who just
came in and like chatted to, anda sound designer.
But at the end of the dayyou're on stage.
And that's where the audienceis so important in this show
because I don't have a scenepartner.
My scene partner is myself butlike, yeah, that's the thing

(51:25):
that drew me to acting and Ithink just by kind of necessity.
Um, it became a solid pursuit.

Speaker 2 (51:34):
also, funding you can't afford to pay that many
actors yeah especially if you'rean independent artist yourself
but when you do someone else'swork, don't expect to get paid.
No, because of that, that'sokay.

Speaker 1 (51:46):
Yeah, but being in the room with people.
It's so you get so much moredone so quickly through
collaboration.
I think this is the thing.
I talk about it too much.
I need to just go and do it.
Permission.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Go and do it.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
Chris, write me a play.

Speaker 2 (52:03):
My first play is going to be a sub-story about
alcoholism.
That's my solo play.

Speaker 1 (52:09):
I think you should do it cabaret.
I think you should incorporatethe story of the busker.
I think you should have like apiano and a guitar on stage.
Would you do covers or wouldyou write original songs?

Speaker 2 (52:26):
I could never write originals.

Speaker 1 (52:27):
Okay, so we're doing covers.

Speaker 2 (52:29):
All I ever did was talk about how I wanted to write
originals.
I never did it.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
Oh, interesting, this is a through line.

Speaker 2 (52:35):
Well, yeah, but this is why acting works for me.
Yeah, I don't write.
I mean, I write things, but Iwrite content, man, but only
because I write it.
See, I write what I need towrite.

Speaker 1 (52:50):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
You know what I mean.
Yeah, yeah, acting works for mebecause I get to someone gives
me something, I go.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
I know how to bring this to life you like suffuse
yourself into that and that'sfun and enlightening and
spiritual and all those goodthings.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
But you know, just on like covers, songs, that's so
synonymous with acting and doingsomeone else's work.
Okay, in terms of likespontaneity and understanding a
backstory, but not necessarilyshowing everything in a
performance that's going on orthat has gone on for the

(53:29):
character.
Showing everything in aperformance that's going on or
that has gone on for thecharacter.
But I think about, I thinkwhat's made acting feel so
normal to me is I sang otherpeople's songs for so many years
and they became my songsbecause there's meaning in it
for me.
Like if I sing a song that Ireally love and I've sung it a

(53:50):
hundred times and I've listenedto it 4,000 times, it's my song
now and so when I perform it,you're getting my story, you're
getting my interpretation ofthat song, and every time I
perform the song, it's going tobe different and I'm going to
feel something different atdifferent moments of the song
and there's going to bedifferent intonations and

(54:10):
different dynamics with everytime I sing that song.
And I think that is what westrive for with performing.
Yes, because every single timeI perform a scene in someone
else's work, it becomes mine,it's my scene, it's my character
, it's me yeah and I'm, andevery you see it, I'm going to

(54:31):
feel something different at anygiven moment.
I think that, to me, is such abloody.
That's the answer.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
There you go.
Do you know what I mean?
Well, yeah, it makes totalsense.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:43):
It makes total sense.
I want it noted for the recordthat we did start this
conversation talking about theCabaret Festival, and that's
exactly what that's the spiritof cabaret come full circle.
That's the spirit of cabaret.
Yeah, it is of like these.
You know some of the songs thatpeople were singing last night
over 100 years old yeah hearingit anew yeah, and it's theirs
it's theirs.
Yes, yeah, yes, and I love thatyou said uh, what you were

(55:08):
saying about, like, it's myscene now they're my words now.
Again, this is a mindset thingand I'm starting to wonder if
some of the training that I'veexperienced is, I think, voided
that a little bit for me, inthat it is not yours, these
words do not belong to you, youare.

Speaker 2 (55:31):
Oh, that's so interesting man.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Like Dude.
It was sort of like you are inservice of the work you are not
the work Okay.
And I really think there'ssomething to be said in 2025 for
actors to have more agency inthat capacity and I think it's
changing.
But I also think it's a verylike.
You are an empty vessel, you area blank canvas, and some of our

(55:56):
favourite actors are fullyidiosyncratic.
They are not classicallytrained and I don't mean any of
this to say that I did not valuemy training.
I valued it immensely, but youhave to kind of be like it's

(56:18):
mine.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:19):
I am the artist.
Yeah, this isn't alive if I'mnot here.
You remember when when we met?
We met at Eric Thompson'sworkshop last year and I was
sort of amazed at how sort offrankly he encouraged people to
like take up space and take uptime.

(56:40):
You're there for a reason.

Speaker 3 (56:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:44):
And it does not happen without you, yeah.
And it does not happen withoutyou Not to you know, not to like
big yourself up, but to just golike take what you need to do,
the job that you need to do.
Yeah, and I was like whoa, thatblows my mind, it's very
interesting man.

Speaker 2 (57:02):
Yeah, Because I didn't train and I don't have
anything.

Speaker 1 (57:08):
You didn't go to a training institution.
Oh yeah, yeah, no, I'vedefinitely found ways to train.

Speaker 2 (57:12):
Like I definitely.
I actively seek out workshopsand I trained doing amateur
theatre and short films.

Speaker 3 (57:20):
Yeah, there's a whole thing about like full-time
three years.

Speaker 2 (57:23):
I didn't do that and a lot of my favourite actors
didn't do that.
They're doing fine and they'revery interesting as actors, I
think, and they bring so much ofthemselves to the work.
But one thing that I'veobserved and it's one singular
thing out of all the positivesthat I have also observed from

(57:43):
people that have trained thatthere are things that I
certainly have missed out onright, but I think I'm I'm okay
with collecting those things NowI'm, I'm I'm having these
conversations being like whatdon't I know?
You know, and that's very likea lot of practical things, a lot
of industry things, a lot ofcrafty kind of things you know

(58:05):
technique-y stuff?

Speaker 1 (58:06):
Yeah, All that sort of stuff I'm still most
beneficial to me.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
I'm still a sponge.
I'm still like all right, man,I will take what I can from you
because you know you'reexperienced in your own ways.
But one singular thing is thisidea of like stripping your
individuality from yourself andmistaking that for, like, the
need to strip your ego.
Yes, right, and yes, okay,definitely, you can't bring your

(58:32):
ego onto a set.
I don't know.
Ego is kind of important in asense, because it's
self-confidence and it's theAlso, that's human, we're humans
and we're representing humans.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
Ego is crucial.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:47):
It's the negative connotations of the word ego.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Yeah, ego is important, yeah, but I think
what I've observed this is whereI was going with that.
What I've observed is, I feeland I might be wrong some people
have had their individualitybeaten out of them in drama
school or something.
Do you know what I?

Speaker 1 (59:06):
mean.
I do know what you mean.

Speaker 2 (59:07):
I don't know if that's true.

Speaker 1 (59:09):
Yeah, and I don't think it's true, for like
everyone who's ever been throughan institution.

Speaker 3 (59:13):
Certainly not.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
And, to be clear, like I had some fucking
phenomenal teachers in dramaschool, it wasn't all positive
experiences but on the wholereally glad I went.

Speaker 3 (59:24):
Loved it.

Speaker 1 (59:24):
Wouldn't trade it fantastic.
I think viola davis was on athing talking about juilliard
and um, the the interviewer waslike, basically, did they train
you to be a great actress or didthey train you to be like a
perfect white classical actress?

(59:46):
and she was like well, obviously, obviously the latter.
Like there was no room forsomeone who looked like me, who
sounded like me, who presentedlike I do?
Yeah, and how can you besurprised when you're trying to
force yourself into a box thatwasn't designed for you and it
doesn't fit, yeah, for you andit doesn't fit, yeah, for me?

(01:00:14):
I relied a lot on being toldwhat makes me good, rather than
doing the work which I thinkI've done since, and doing
things like Psychopomp, findingwhat makes me good and letting
everything else float away,letting my you know, whatever
adornments I put on performances, letting them fall away rather
than forcing myself to shed them.
Because I found, like some coreof truth and some core of

(01:00:41):
understanding of the work and ofmy part in that Acting relies
so much on that essence ofpeople.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
Yeah, you don't want to lose that yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
I'm not going to get cast in the same role as I don't
know, tilly Cobham-Hurvey, andthat's really good, because
there needs to be people wholook like her and people and
characters that she portraysfantastically yeah they need to
be visible.
Characters that look like meand that I portray fantastically

(01:01:17):
also need to be visible yeahdiversity is only going to be
our friend, and there can be notrue diversity without honoring
the strength of the individual.
And you can't do that if you'rejust trying to be perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
And that was what I was trying to be for so long.
I just wanted someone to giveme an A and a gold star and tell
me that I was just as pretty asthe other girls and, like you
know, could say words good andlook nice.

Speaker 3 (01:01:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
Does anyone have any idea who Poppy is Not through
that?

Speaker 2 (01:01:58):
lens yeah, but audiences know who Poppy is
because there are other Poppiesout there that need to see Poppy
.
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:02:07):
Yeah, exactly, but it took me unlearning that I
didn't, and I shouldn't try tobe like.
I shouldn't base what I valuein myself upon how similar it is
to other characteristics that Isee in people who have the

(01:02:29):
success that I want.
So you define your own goalsand you define your own
definition of success.

Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Sure, yeah, I think you have to, because no one's
going to do it for you.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
Hey, someone should do a podcast about that.
That was really loud.
I heard that in your drum kit.
Oh, yes, I should do a podcastabout that.
That was really loud.
I heard that in your drum kit.

Speaker 2 (01:02:49):
Oh yes, I should put a blanket over that or something
, but see why I called it this.

Speaker 1 (01:02:54):
I do, I really do, and I don't know about you, but
like being in my 30s, I think Ifeel a sense of like fortitude
that I don't think I had in my20s.

Speaker 2 (01:03:07):
Your 20s was waiting for someone to find you, find
you, see you.
Yeah, and the frustration.
We were all so depressedbecause we're like, why, why
don't they see me?
Yeah, and 30s is like no man,I'm going to go get it now.
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:23):
Yeah, it's not that you don't need other people to
see you, no but it's that youunderstand that you are worth
being seen without someone elsetelling you, and also not
everyone's going to give a shit.

Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
Yeah, but there are so many people in the world that
might resonate.
So just make shit, yeah, justgo be part of shit and throw the
spaghetti on the wall and onepiece might stick, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
Yeah and great.
That's all you need.

Speaker 2 (01:03:55):
Yeah, yeah, I think we figured it out a lot.

Speaker 1 (01:03:59):
I think we've really done a lot of good, solid work.

Speaker 3 (01:04:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:05):
We've had important conversations.
Yeah, we've made some very goodpoints.
I.
We've had importantconversations.
Yeah, we've made some very goodpoints.
I think we've had a few laughsalong the way.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
Any other burning topics.
We want to, because I should.
We should wrap up because I'mgoing to go to dinner six
minutes ago.
Okay, good, but it's okay.
Great, but if there's anythingelse, we should discuss it.
Otherwise you are alwayswelcome to come back.
So okay, Great, but if there'sanything else, we should discuss
it Otherwise you are alwayswelcome to come back, so okay.

Speaker 1 (01:04:31):
Okay, you're interviewing me, chris Gunn.
One thing I enjoy about yourself-tapes is that you seem to
be having so much fun.

Speaker 3 (01:04:40):
Yeah, doing it yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
Making them, the process of making them.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
Doesn't seem like a chore the process of making them
?
Yes, doesn't seem like a chore.
Seems like you are finding,like the joy in doing the work
which I think is something thatwe neglect about self-tapes.

Speaker 2 (01:05:00):
You used to.
I mean, yeah, I think you weresaying out there that, like
people seem to.

Speaker 1 (01:05:03):
Find them sort of burdensome.

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
What were you saying about, like, when we started
doing self-tapes, when theyfirst became a thing, what was
the attitude?

Speaker 1 (01:05:13):
it was sort of well.
There was a kind of an energyof like um, this is a very new
thing that we're being asked todo and we don't fully understand
it yet, and how do we make itgood and have?
It was essentially like tryingto emulate the experience of

(01:05:34):
having an audition in the room.
Yeah, in a tape, and I thinkwe've moved on from that.
Yeah, and great example is likethe creativity and like just
ridiculous joy that you have inyour tapes, coming up with
things like where it was likeit's a battle scene like a war

(01:05:55):
scene Like a war scene.
Yeah, and you were on the beach,but instead of like a gun, you
had a tennis racket and you werehitting off tennis balls.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
Yeah, but that was all written Like the tennis
balls was all.
It's like a sports betting app,mean, uh, ad, right, so that
was all in the scene, right, thetennis balls and stuff.
It's a, it's an ad, it's outthere.
I didn't, I didn't get it.
I was.
I think they were casting fourpeople when I was the fifth.
Oh no, I was on hold for awhile for that, but but yeah,
like.

(01:06:23):
So that brief was like theywanted you to.

Speaker 3 (01:06:27):
They wanted you to do all these things in front of a
grey wall.

Speaker 2 (01:06:31):
Yeah, like swimming Swimming in the ocean was one of
the things.
So like she was swimming in theocean and dodging tennis balls
with a tennis racket and divinginto a trench and looking over
the trench and you know I waslike yeah, you're like asked to
make a short film and lookingover the trench and you know I
was like, yeah, you're likeasked to make a short film.

(01:06:52):
I could do this in the studioand go.
But like whatever man, look, Ilive 10 minutes from the beach.
I called my mate.
I'm like, can you hold myiPhone?
And we're going to make alittle film.
And we did that.
And maybe it's a bit cheekydoing that, but I'm like you're
going to get my performance outof that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
And it's going to be a more pleasurable experience
for you.

Speaker 2 (01:07:13):
Yeah, it's a fine line, because I don't want to
just put it out there like youshould break rules and I said
this with Nick as well like youshouldn't.
Don't be arrogant about it.
You know, if you have a briefand they specifically want you
to do this in front of the wall,do that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:31):
Yeah, you know, sometimes they do and sometimes
they just want to see yeah, justgauge.
Sometimes they just want to seeyour eyes, yeah exactly,
Exactly Don't.

Speaker 2 (01:07:38):
It's not about showing off, but I kind of felt
like if I can make it look asclose to the real thing as
possible, the less imaginingthey have to do, the better.

Speaker 1 (01:07:49):
Especially for something like ads.

Speaker 2 (01:07:51):
Especially for something so like high action.
You know, yeah, might as well,and I definitely don't do that
shit every single time and Idon't have the energy to do that
every single time.
That's ridiculous.
But usually I'm in here and butI always like to have fun with
it because I'm making littlefilms.
Yeah, I fucking love it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:12):
I've been given a script and I'm like it's a fun
thing to do rather than likeit's a task that I have been set
against my will.

Speaker 2 (01:08:22):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, like I get an email.
I'm like, thank God I got anemail, yeah, like I get to
audition for something and Ihave full autonomy over how this
looks.
And I've done auditions, I'vedone.
You know, back in the day whenwe were auditioning in the room,
I wasn't very good at that.
Sometimes I was Like I had somesuccess doing that, but like I

(01:08:45):
was still figuring out how toact then.
And I remember I did anaudition with the Heesons for a
war film.
I can't remember what it was,but I had to cry over my horse
who was about to be killed and Ijust could not remove myself
from those four walls in thattiny little room.

(01:09:07):
Yeah, I can't, I don't know, Ijust wasn't it from those four
walls in that tiny little room.
Yeah, I can't, I don't know, Ijust wasn't.
It was a long time ago now.
I don't know how I would goabout it now.
But yeah, on a set you're notin the well, sometimes you are.
Yeah, Sometimes you're not askedto imagine so much yeah you're
not asked to imagine so much,but also you're given a lot more
time and a lot more space toget there and they're going to

(01:09:30):
give you as much as they can tohelp you and I mean, obviously
the Heesums do that With the 10minutes you get with them.
They give so much to you.
But yeah, self-taping is ablessing for me, like it changed
my career, because I was likefuck it, man, I'm going to play
and also I have these thingsthat I've learned about

(01:09:52):
filmmaking.
I studied that and I'm likewell, I'll use that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
Yeah, and I don't think that's like it's not
necessary to go to film schoolto learn how to do a self-tape.
But having some like eveneducating yourself.
I learnt YouTube tutorials,yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
Oh yeah, I learnt how to use a camera after film
school because I focus onediting and producing and I
wanted to direct.

Speaker 1 (01:10:17):
Yeah, and how else are you going to practise
learning how to use a camera?

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
Yeah, it's an opportunity to make something
Like have fun there, you go,yeah To make something Like have
fun.

Speaker 3 (01:10:25):
There you go yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
Emily Joy.
She talks about, like find themost pleasurable way to go about
this process.
Yeah, for you.
Yeah, man, that's it.
She talks about like don'tthink of it as a necessary, it's
a mindset thing.
Don't think of it as anecessary evil, it's not a
necessary evil, that is anopportunity.

(01:10:47):
Yeah, yeah.
And again, something I had tolearn, something I had to
reframe for myself consciously.

Speaker 2 (01:10:52):
Well, they don't want someone that wants it, they
want someone that wants to do it.
Does that make sense?
Yeah yeah, yeah, I don't wantthe job.
I want to do this thing rightnow.
I want to do this thing rightnow.
I want to do this audition?
Yeah, this is me playing.

Speaker 1 (01:11:07):
Exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:11:08):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:11:09):
But I'm also thinking beyond the audition.

Speaker 1 (01:11:11):
But even if it stops at the audition.

Speaker 2 (01:11:13):
Oh, yeah, yeah, but I'm showing them the
professionalism that I wouldbring to a set and the
playfulness that I would bringto a set and the malleability.
Is that a word?
Yeah, yeah, thanks.
Poppy me the thesaurus.

Speaker 3 (01:11:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:32):
I think we should wrap up.

Speaker 1 (01:11:33):
I think we should too , we're just saying exactly to
each other over and over againExactly Two drunk girls in the
bathroom.

Speaker 2 (01:11:38):
Exactly, dude.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
This was awesome.
My pleasure.
Guys, thank you so much forlistening.
That was a good one, right?
Please check out Poppy onInstagram.
Poppy underscore M-double-Eunderscore Poppy me.
She's awesome, she's great,she's so creative.
She knows what she's talkingabout.

(01:11:59):
Please check out her stuff.
If you want to support the show,you can do so by signing up to
the Patreon, patreoncom, slash,gopluckyourselfpod and
contributing as little as $5 amonth towards the show.
It really helps me keep thisshow going.
Guys, I do all of this myself.
I shoot it myself, I edit itmyself.
It's a lot of work, it's a lotof hours, but I love it.
I love building this communitywith you guys.
But if you do want to supportthe show, you can do so by

(01:12:21):
signing out to the Patreon.
And if you're using an iPhone,please don't use the EOS app
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Also, when you do go topatreoncom, slash,
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(01:12:42):
Press see membership options.
Joining for free does absolutelynothing.
It's just a way For Patreon totake your data.
It does nothing For you or forme.
So go to Patreoncom.
Slash, go, pluck yourself, podand press See membership options
To contribute as little as $5 amonth Towards the show.
Thank you so much To anyonethat's Already signed up.
Your support means the world.
Alright, guys, I have to gorest.

(01:13:08):
A drama class now.
Uh, it's been a long day, butI'm loving it.
I'm happy.
Guys, thank you so much forbeing here.
I'll see you next week.
My name is Chris gun and hey,go pluck yourself.
Thank you.