Ep 6 Virginia Blackwell: An Actor's Guide to Directing Actors

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, my name is Virginia Blackwell and you
should go pluck yourself.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, welcome to Go Pluck Yourself, the actor's
pursuit.
My name is Chris Gunn.
I know, I know it's Friday.
I'm a whole day late.
I'm very sorry, guys.
I know you guys were alltossing and turning last night
wondering where this week'sepisode was.
But I'm here, I'm alive, I'msounding better, I can breathe
again, yeah.
But to be honest, guys, I'vefound it really hard to keep up
with the podcast this week.

(00:36):
I can't seem to get off myphone and stop watching the news
.
There's just so much happeningin the world right now and it's
a bit terrifying.
And we live in this very safebubble over here in Australia
and even we're creating suchunnecessary problems and
divisive problems between ourown society.
And I know that this is not theonly issue that's happening in

(00:58):
the world.
But today I just want to pay myrespects to the people of Nepal
who are going through such aheartbreaking and frustrating
and stressful time, and Iespecially wanted to pay my
respects to all the people thatdied so unnecessarily in that
protest the other day.
My heart goes out to everyonein Nepal right now and everyone
that's living abroad inAustralia and around the world

(01:20):
that can't be back home in Nepalwith their families.
All my love to all.
I'm sorry for what you're allgoing through right now and the
rest of the world.
Okay, I'm not going to get intopolitics.
That's for my other Instagrampage, where I vent my
frustrations with the world.

(01:41):
But this podcast is about actingand we're going to talk about
acting and I'm sorry, virginia,I don't want to dampen your
episode with a heartbreakingopening, but the world's hurting
man.
Yeah, okay, here we go.
If you're an actor who reallyjust wants to understand the ins
and outs of what goes on insidea director's mind or,
conversely, you're a directorwho wants to better understand

(02:03):
the language of actors so thatyou can communicate and get the
best out of your actors, thisepisode is a true masterclass.
My guest this week is the truepowerhouse that is Virginia
Blackwell.
Virginia is a professionallytrained actor.
She is a director, a writer, amusician.
She has already lived a veryfulfilling and rich artistic

(02:25):
life and she's just at thebeginning of her journey and
it's so exciting to see, it'ssuch an honor to know her.
I can't wait to see what shedoes with her career.
I first met Virginia only a fewmonths ago in person.
I think we were following eachother on Instagram for a while,
but I went to one of her shows,the Ugly One, which was put on
by Famous Last Words Theatre,and it was fantastic.

(02:49):
I was literally cackling in myseat.
It was such a good show,directed by James Watson.
And, trust me, guys, if youguys ever get a chance to see
any production by Famous LastWords Theatre, please go and
check them out.
Give them a follow.
I'll put that right here Now.
Virginia just doesn't seem tostop Even now, as she's about to
start packing her bags to takeher first short film, dragging

(03:09):
the Chain, to Copenhagen.
She is in pre-production andseeking funding for her first
feature film, which she didn'twant to tell me too much about,
understandably, but youdefinitely need to keep an eye
out for her work.
Dragging the Chain is notonline yet, but it will be on
YouTube eventually.
So please make sure you giveher a follow so you don't miss

(03:29):
out on any of her work thatshe's about to release.
You can follow her on Instagramat Ginny.
That's spelled G-I-N-N-I,separated by underscores.
You'll work it out.
I'll put that one in thedescription as well below.
So I'll put that one in thedescription as well below.
So make sure you give her afollow.
Don't miss any of her upcomingwork.
I really loved having thisconversation with Virginia.
It was really interesting.
We covered everything from herexperience at Flinders Drama

(03:51):
School to how she was thrustinto the world of directing and
some really wonderful insightsinto how her training as an
actor has strengthened herskills as a director in the best
way.
Now remember guys, this is theinternet.
Everything you hear on thispodcast is purely subjective.
If and when you hear somethingthat sounds like advice, please
remember that these are justloose conversations between two
creatives.

(04:11):
We're mainly just spitballing,but that doesn't mean that we
don't have some reallyinteresting insights or opinions
or ideas.
But please don't take anythingyou hear on this podcast as
gospel.
If something resonates with youtry it out.
But if not, just please ignoreit, but do join the conversation
.
If you have an opinion onsomething, or you hear something
you really like or you don'tlike, please leave a comment.

(04:33):
Let us know what you think.
I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Now one more thing before weget into the chat.
Please help out the podcast byhitting that subscribe or follow
button wherever you'relistening or watching.
It really does help get thepodcast in front of the right
audience.
All right, actors, directors,producers, filmmakers, whatever
you are, whatever you callyourself, get your notes app
ready, fire up your thumbs, getready to take some notes, and I

(04:55):
hope this sparks someinspiration for you as much as
it did me.
All right, guys, now pleaseenjoy my wonderful chat with the
unstoppable Virginia Blackwell.
With the unstoppable VirginiaBlackwell.
So what's going on?
How are you?

Speaker 1 (05:11):
I'm good.
I'm good I've been busy, whichis nice, not always the case in
the arts Busy doing what I feelreally lucky.
I created this short filmcalled Dragging the and I.
I had no real experience when Imade it um, but I managed to
pull together.
The most insane team ever madesomething we're really proud of,

(05:32):
and we just found out that wegot into um down under film
festival in copenhagen.
so no way yeah, I know it's kindof crazy how good.
Um.
So our first our sort of debutof the film is going to be in
copenhagen, um in like threeweeks that's awesome, yeah yeah,
it's gonna be fantastic andyou're going I am me and riley
scott who shot the film with meuh, we're going over to see it

(05:54):
on the big screen.
So it's gonna be, really cool.
Is it available anywhere here?
Not yet it will be.
Um, we're kind of waiting forthe festival run to finish
because some of them are a bitfunny about, you know,
distribution and who gets to seeit first, that kind of thing.
But yeah, it was such a nicesurprise and it's such a
beautiful festival Like it'syeah, kind of amazing that we're

(06:15):
able to go at all.

Speaker 2 (06:16):
So how long are you going over for?

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Well, we're going over for the festival week and
then Riley and I are just takingthe rest of the trip.
So I think we're going to.
Amsterdam together for a fewdays and then I'm going off to
Paris by myself for like eightdays.
He's going off and doing hisown thing, and then we're
meeting back in Berlin for likea week.
Yeah, and so nice, how lucky.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
I know it's crazy something you made is is taking
you overseas.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
That's so cool, I know especially something that
you've worked on for so long,and I feel like this is an
experience it's not like uniqueto people behind the camera
either.
I think it's maybe even worsesometimes for actors, because I
think about the guys who were indragging the chain yeah they
shot it in 2023, then they heardnothing yeah, for ages and they

(06:59):
have seen it at like a littlecast and crew screening yeah but
that was beginning of this year, Like so long of being like
what's it doing?
Where are we going?
Am.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
I going to you know.
That's what happens, though,Like you shoot something and
then you're just like okay, Imean, I'm in the dark, I'm in
the dark now I guess I mean Imight see it.
I've got projects that I'm likehey, what happened to that
thing we shot like and I justdon't.
I don't know if I never gotfinished or that's such a
universal experience for actors.
I think yeah, like just goingwell.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
I I hope that I did good and I I don't know if it'll
ever materialize into somethingI can use, but look, if it
sucks, don't put it out you know, leave it yeah it's all good I
had an experience once when, uh,someone, someone was asking me
to edit their film and they knewthat it couldn't be saved right

Speaker 2 (07:53):
but they, they wanted me to save it and they, they
hired a cinema like three monthsin advance and they're like,
can you have it finished by then?
And I was like, why would youshow people something you don't
know you're happy with?
Yeah, do you know what I mean?
I don't think that's how artworks.
No, do you know what I mean?
Like you make as much as youcan, you make what you can, you
put everything you can intoeverything you make and then you

(08:13):
throw the spaghetti on the walland you see what sticks.
Absolutely you don't pick it upoff the ground and be like, oh
no, this bit.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
But try it, yeah, yeah I mean it's a bit chewy,
yeah, yeah, you know yeah, it'stricky, especially when it's
something like you're editingand you're not the person in
charge of the whole project.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yeah, because you want me to save this thing, and
then it's, it's kind of on meyeah, and at what point?

Speaker 1 (08:36):
like, how do you have that conversation?

Speaker 2 (08:37):
it's so hard to go like I said no, yeah, yeah, I'm
out, yeah, and sometimes youhave to, but but it's so
difficult.

Speaker 1 (08:46):
It's so difficult and editing in particular, I feel
like it can just make or break afilm.
Yeah.
And it takes so long, so muchlonger than I ever anticipated.
Yeah, like Dragging the Chain.
We had Billy Lambert Stockman,who's insane, she's so talented,

(09:07):
fantastic, and I had come toher and been like okay, so we
finished shooting in like march.
I want it done, I want it doneby november.
She just laughed and was like,all right, like we'll, we'll try
is that a?

Speaker 2 (09:17):
short it was for what we were doing.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
We had so much footage, and so, because it was
my first film too, I willdefinitely take ownership of the
fact that I did not write orshoot for the edit.
I really was like everyone onset was so patient with me
because I was like I don'treally know what I'm doing with
this bit, or like we shot acouple of different scenes that

(09:41):
like didn't work when we came toactually cutting the film
together.
Or like maybe a moreexperienced director even me,
now I'm like, oh, I know what Iwouldn't do there, but that's.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
But that's why you made, that's why that's why we
go out and just do it, because Imean you can't just wait to be
like, oh, when will I be readyto to make a film you just have
to be like I'm gonna go make afilm and and then I'll learn
from that experience.

Speaker 1 (10:05):
The biggest thing that I learnt from that whole
experience and I felt like Ilearnt like a semester's worth
of film school every single dayof the shoot, I just was
constantly soaking in newinformation, but you don't
actually need anyone'spermission to start making the
things you want to make.
Yeah.
And kind of like what we weretalking about with lauren and

(10:26):
the sort of teapot analogy islike yeah, yeah you, you don't
actually need it to be perfect.
The first time and like it'samazing if you can make it into
something that you are reallyproud of.
And yeah, especially for myfirst film I am I'm really proud
of what we were able to do yeah, yeah, absolutely but like I
didn't need it to be perfect, Ikind of went into it and went.

(10:47):
I know what I want to say.
I know what I want it to looklike.
I know who I want to work withand I just want to try it and if
it's terrible, then that sucks,but I'll never show it to
anyone.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
I doubt it's terrible Thank, you.
But I've seen snippets of itand it looks unreal.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
Thank you so much it looks so good.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
Thank you, kate Owen.
She's unbelievable.
Oh my goodness, so was she thelead, yeah she is.

Speaker 1 (11:11):
I mean the three actors that we had.
We had Kate Owen, tom Healy,who actually taught me and Kate
how to act at drama school.
Oh really, yeah, he was myteacher through drama school, so
it was a really special thingto to have him on and work with
him in that way.
And then jude turner, who Idon't know if you've met him
before, but he is so wonderfulhe's kind of a young guy yeah,

(11:32):
yeah, he was in um, I think.
Yeah, I've forgotten.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
Follow each other on socials yeah, they've renamed
the film.
I can't remember what they'verenamed it to, but it was called
emotion is dead um, yeah, itwas the feature that he was in
and riley actually suggested tolook at him.

Speaker 1 (11:45):
Um, because we'd auditioned so many people for
this role and every singleperson that we had was
phenomenal, like all of theactors that went up for it were
so talented.
But I was like, oh, there's justlike some quality that I can't
quite describe yeah that I can'tfind in these auditions and
like we were trying to narrow itdown and there were some really

(12:08):
, really beautiful performancesfrom people, but I was like who
they are as an individual wasjust like not quite in alignment
with what we were looking forfor the character, yeah, and he
was like just have a look atthis guy.
Like I saw him in adelaide filmfestival.
I don't know if he's like theright fit or whatever, but, um,
just see, see what you think.
And he showed me his instagram.

(12:28):
I was like that's the guy howgood and then we got him to send
in a tape just to see, like youknow, what he was like on
camera.
Yeah, and he was phenomenal andliterally just smashed it out
of the park immediately.
I was like this is unreal ohyeah sometimes those casting
choices come down to a vibe likeoh yeah it's so odd and I think
it kind of it made me a littlebit more confident, actually,

(12:51):
weirdly, as an actor, to gothrough the experience of
actually watching all of thesetapes and being like, wow, these
people are so talented, butthere's something that's missing
.
That yeah that is nothing to dowith anything they're doing,
yeah, and then have someone popup who I'd never heard of before
and just be like, yep, that'sthe quality that I'm looking for
.
Yeah.
That he just innately has in hispersonality yeah.

(13:14):
It kind of made me go oh,sometimes if I'm missing out on
a role, I'm so it's so easy tobe like, oh man, I probably To
take it to heart.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
Yeah, it's so easy to be like oh man, I probably To
take it to heart and blame yourperformance or your?
Acting.
Yeah, Sometimes it's.
It's literally just the vibe orthe chemistry that you give off
or or just, yeah, everythingthat's made you who you are in
that moment that just happened.
You just need it to fit to thisvery specific character
Sometimes.

Speaker 1 (13:40):
No one that I watched was I like that was bad.
Yeah, no one that I watched wasI like that was bad and
actually I don't think in all ofthe auditions I've ever watched
for projects I've done or otherpeople's projects where they've
been like what do you think forcasting?
Yeah.
I've never once watched anactor and been like, oh, that
was shit, Like it doesn't happen.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
And I just think it was comforting for me as an
actor.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
As an actor, yeah, to go like, oh, it's actually not
even a quality thing, it's like,purely, what kind of energy do
I bring to that role?
And some of the performancesthat we had in the tapes for
that character was so beautifulbut just not the right person
for whatever reason.

Speaker 2 (14:22):
For that character.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:23):
But it's also funny and really lovely and comforting
from an acting perspective forme to then look at, like all of
the conversations that arehappening behind closed doors in
film world yeah where I'mrecommending people for roles,
other people are recommendingpeople for roles and that those
people that I'm seeing in thoseauditions or I'm watching in

(14:44):
their plays or showcases orwhatever that stuff isn't going
unnoticed by industry.
Like actually a lot of peopleare talked about super highly.
I've never had anyone like gooh, I don't like that actor, I
don't think they're any good,Like it's.
Actually I was shocked at howoften people were talking highly

(15:04):
of actors.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah, there is so much support in this industry,
and especially I mean I onlyreally know this Adelaide bubble
, but I've never heard peopletalk badly about anyone in this
industry Yep, and I think peoplejust genuinely are just happy
to see other people doing thingsand trying things and working
together, and it's.
It's just about supporting eachother and making things.

(15:26):
Absolutely and there is thisvery toxic competitive idea.
That kind of creeps into yourbrain sometimes, and it's not
that you feel it about otherpeople, but you sort of project
their thoughts onto you and youthink, oh, they see me as
competition and they'redefinitely thinking badly about

(15:47):
me or talking badly about me,but who am I to impose that idea
on them, that that's what theythink of me Do?

Speaker 1 (15:52):
you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
It's crazy how easy it is to convince yourself that
you know what other people arethinking yeah or like, what
other people are saying it'sreally rude to assume someone
else thinks that way, to assumethat someone else is such a
horrible person to think thatabout someone else you know but
it's protective right.

Speaker 1 (16:10):
It's a reflex to be like it's projection yeah to go
like well, if I think thatsomebody else is thinking these
things that actually I thinkabout myself or I'm insecure
about in myself then, that makesit easier to to deal with if I
externalize it rather thanconfronting that like maybe
that's actually coming from meand my own insecurity.
I think I definitely felt thatwith, like talking about you

(16:32):
know, what career path to godown.
Coming from you know, mybackground was originally in
music, classical music.
Really.
Yeah, so I started playing pianowhen I was three Nice.
And started classical voicewhen I was three.
Nice and uh started classicalvoice when I was there's a piano
right there.
She's gonna play a song at theend of this episode?

Speaker 2 (16:49):
no, I won't what that's in the contract.

Speaker 1 (16:52):
Hey, come on now.
Yeah, I like I started outthere and I had a really
wonderful like semi-professionalcareer as a teenager, which was
kind of crazy no way I knowyeah and then awesome I like I
came to an impasse when I wasleaving high school.
Yeah, I'd done like maybe liketwo years of drama classes.
I didn't do it through most ofschool, but I did the Adelaide

(17:15):
Cabaret Festival.
They had a program called Classof Cabaret, which I think they
still run.
Basically, you got in thesegroups and you wrote like a
little improv or like littlespeech that you were going to do
, yeah, and then you'd likelaunch into playing the piano
and singing or playing guitarand singing whatever.
Yeah, nice, and I ended updoing a little section that was
like a stand-up comedy pieceabout how much my parents didn't

(17:40):
want me to get tattoos and howbadly I wanted them.
So you wrote that.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
I wrote it.
Yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (17:45):
And did it in front of like 200 people.
It was terrifying.

Speaker 2 (17:48):
Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 (17:49):
How old were you?
I was in year 11, so like 16.

Speaker 2 (17:52):
Yeah, oh, vulnerable age.

Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, and to try and be funny in front of people at
that age is like wow, but it wasso nice because it actually
went over really well.
Yeah, and I was like man, maybe, I maybe I can do this.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
I'm hilarious.
Maybe I'm actually the funniestperson to ever live in the
entire world.

Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, I think I might be better than everyone else,
exactly, yeah and then I I wasso lucky that I had uh, as part
of that program I was doing thisnight school.
Yeah, that was like a dramacourse I don't even know how to
describe it was likespecifically for acting, which
is so amazing.
And I had this teacher namedEmma, emma Heavenstright.
She works in industry.

(18:30):
Hi, emma, she is so delightfuland I really credit her with
like giving me the confidence toactually pursue this as a
career, because I'd done theshow, or I was doing the show at
the time and I was like man, Ireally love this, but like I
don't really know.
I think when I was like sevenor eight, I'd been in a school

(18:50):
musical and one of the parentshad pulled me aside and been
like, oh, you're so good atmusic, but don't ever act.
I was like, oh man, all right,I know it's so weird, but I was
like talking to her about it andI know it's crazy how much
those things stick I know theydo, they get in it's wild.
Yeah, she was so great becauseshe she looked at what I was
doing and she was like you couldabsolutely do this as your

(19:12):
career.
You definitely should considergoing to drama school.
I will help you find monologues.
I'll help you prep for it.
Like she was so wonderful, hownice is that I know it's so
beautiful and I got to likereconnect with her as an adult
and yes, he's still in touchyeah, yeah, um, because, like
the you know, my normal dramaclasses were fine, but it was
just so interesting to like havethat support from a teacher and

(19:34):
someone who, yeah, I reallylooked up to, um, and that kind
of set me on the path to doacting, yeah, and I loved it.
I absolutely loved drama schoollike it was so right for me.
I know it's not right foreveryone, um, and I definitely
don't think it's necessary foractors to go to drama school,
but it was necessary for me yeah, well, I mean like listening
back to some of the episodesthat we've done so far.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
I've had people on that are that have gone to drama
school and and that haven't,and I'm in the latter category
and.
I really hope I'm not comingacross as like damning it, no,
no, no, like you don't need togo there, because I'm only
talking from my experience, andI hope I'm not coming across as
biased.
I don't think so.
Good, that's a disclaimer, but Iam so curious.

(20:19):
I'm so curious and there'sprobably something in me that's
like what don't I know and whatdid I miss out on?
So I think that's what I loveabout doing this is learning
about what you got out of dramaschool and what goes on there.
But yeah, tell me about dramaschool.
Where did you go?
Went to Flinders.

Speaker 1 (20:36):
Drama Centre yeah, so same as Connor.
Yeah, and, man, like I think Ireally needed it because it's
changed a little bit now interms of when they let people in
.
But when I was going through um, they really waited until most
people were quite a bit older tolet them in.
So most people in my year levelhad auditioned like at least
once before, sometimes twice, ora couple people who were like

(20:58):
three times and is that becausethey want people to have a bit
of life experience?

Speaker 3 (21:01):
yes, yeah yeah, I've heard that, I've heard that with
like NIDA and stuff.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
they kind of turn people away if they're 18.
Yeah, Like, go get some traumamate.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
I think in some ways, like I'm not saying at all,
that there's like one right wayto do it but I kind of think in
some ways that it is a good ruleof thumb because, not so much
because I think you need to likehave a huge amount of life
experience to be an actor, likeI think whatever your life is is
experience enough.
Yeah, but I do think that ithelps to clarify for some people

(21:36):
whether or not it's actuallysomething they really want to do
.

Speaker 2 (21:39):
As a career.

Speaker 1 (21:39):
Yes, If you get knocked back and you go, oh well
, I'm just not meant to do it.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
I guess that's it.
Yeah, then this is not thecareer path for you, because as
you would well know, like youjust get rejected constantly in
this job?

Speaker 1 (21:53):
Yeah, absolutely, and that's like something you have
to get quite comfortable with.
Yeah, but also, you know, thepeople that I really admire are
the people who you know maybehad a setback like they didn't
get into drum school or theythey, for whatever reason, chose
not to, and they were buildingit from the the ground up yeah
and that they managed to I hatethis term, but like they hustled

(22:13):
their way up to where they are,um, and I think that's such a
good quality for an actor or anycreative really to have
probably a good quality for aperson to have is like I want
something, I'm gonna go make ithappen, yeah, but I loved it
because I think I wantedintensity.
At the start, I wanted toreally throw myself into it as

(22:35):
someone who had no realexperience with acting
performance.
I did a lot of musicperformance, but not a lot of
experience with text and not alot of experience, um, you know,
working with other people asactors.
Yeah, and that's what I think Iloved most about it was that it
was every day like 8, 30 till 5so intense man.

(22:57):
It was so intense and so like noholidays, really like you might
.
I think you got like no food,two or three, literally like
sleep.
No, it was full on, and likethere were moments, of course,
that I was like this is so hard,like this is the hardest thing
I've ever done, but I think itwas so rewarding to have the
experience of doing it every day, building a practice and like

(23:22):
having those skills to fall backon, which you absolutely can do
by, you know, going to classesthat aren't as structured as
that, but I know that I neededthat structure to actually force
me to do it.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
The structure is something that it's so hard to
find anywhere else yeah I mean,like if you choose to go when
you're younger, before, you sortof have those the pressures of
the world and you know, bringingin money and keeping a job, and
you kind of have thisopportunity to just throw
everything into acting.
And learning to act andstructure is something that it's

(23:58):
really hard to keep up outsideof drama school and I think it
took me a very long time to evenset up a lifestyle that fits
around acting and it's probablypart of the reason why I didn't
really act through most of my20s.
Yeah.
Because I'm like when yeah, I'vegot to work, I've got to, you

(24:22):
know when will I have time ormoney to go to workshops or do a
play or even just meet peopleand find those experiences.
So, yeah, drama school is agreat opportunity to just be
like, right, this is it, this ismy whole life, right now,
before I get too late into my20s, when the pressures of the

(24:45):
world are forcing me out of thisindustry.

Speaker 1 (24:49):
And I do think there's a lot of privilege that
comes along with being able toset aside four years that you,
that you can devote all of yourtime and energy and resources
into this Very lucky, absolutely, and that's why I think it's
not necessary for everyone.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:04):
The dice that we rolled in this life to have the
opportunities to do somethinglike that we're extremely lucky
and I don't think it's a loss weall recognise that like yeah,
this is.
It's such a privileged choiceto make as a lifestyle.
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (25:19):
It is a big thing to weigh up to go like it is a
full-time job to be at dramaschool or up to go like it is a
full-time job to be at dramaschool, or at least it was in my
experience but what you get outof it is the intensity of
having constant work, which justnever happens in industry.
Um, outside of that, it's alsoI really loved as someone who
didn't feel confident orexperienced when I went in yeah

(25:41):
that it was a safe place to fail.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, it was a like thestructure and the teachers that
I had was so wonderful and sorigorous, but also like being
within the walls of of the dramaschool.
It was like I can do the worstwork of my entire life and
nobody is going to know about it, except for the other 12 people

(26:02):
that were in the room with meat the time.

Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, and they're all going through it too, exactly,
and they're all feeling the samefears and yeah, and, and
learning that safety from theirpeers as well.

Speaker 1 (26:12):
100 and I think like that's really the main things I
got out of drama school I meanthe connections with my teachers
are so wonderful as well yeahbut I think if you were a more
like self-confident person thanI was when I was 18, going to
drama school, then I don't knowthat it's necessary for you to
be in that environment, but forme it was because it allowed me

(26:34):
to go.
Let me set my perfectionismaside and explore the
possibilities of what I can doin an environment that is
designed for me to make mistakesin.

Speaker 2 (26:44):
Yeah, yeah, I think about that and the choices that
I made and the pathways that Itook.
I don't think I would have madeit through drama school.
I was such a defiant littleshit.
Do you know what?
I mean.
Like.
I just didn't like peopletelling me what to do.
Yeah.
And even as a younger actordoing amateur plays and
directors having these ideas.
I'm like what would you know?

(27:06):
You know what I mean, but thatwas something that I really
learnt, like come on, man,they're not criticising you.
They're trying to makesomething you know.

Speaker 1 (27:14):
Yeah, it's so funny though, like I mean, I think we
got spoiled at drama school in alot of ways because we had such
fantastic teachers who were allbrilliant directors, yeah.
And then I came out and Idefinitely experienced a little
bit of that, mostly because Ifound a lot not all, obviously,

(27:34):
but a lot of newer filmdirectors don't know how to talk
to actors.
Yes.
They really don't know how totalk to actors, and I feel like
I actually stole this from TomHealy, who was in the film.
Yeah, I really believe that alldirectors need to know how to
talk to actors, and I feel likeI actually stole this from Tom
Healy, who was in the film.
Yeah, I really believe that alldirectors need to learn how to
act and not just learn on paper,but you have to actually do it
because you don't know that.

(27:54):
What you're asking is stupid orreally difficult.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
It just doesn't translate.

Speaker 1 (28:00):
Yeah, like, or or you know what's hard about being an
actor without having done it.
Yeah, and I get like you canlearn over time with experience
directing and watching whatactors respond to and you know
that kind of thing.
It's not impossible, but Ithink it's such a fast track to
being able to succeed as adirector.
Yeah.

(28:20):
To know what it's like to be infront of the camera, because
it's tough, like it's the bestjob ever, but it's also really
difficult for so many reasonsand it's really hard when, like,
if there is a communicationbreakdown between the two
parties.

Speaker 2 (28:37):
it's so hard.
As a younger actor, I was veryintimidated by any director or
anyone behind the camera or anycrew.
It was when I realised that,like we're all on the same team
and they actually want me to do,they want to help me succeed
Absolutely.
When I realised that and we'reall on the same, it's an even
playing field, we're on the sameteam I really relaxed and I was

(28:57):
actually able to do good workand it was a big shift for me.
So you started in music but thenyou went into acting.
So for me.
So you started, you started inmusic but then you went into
acting.
So where did the spark tobecome to try out directing?
Where did that come from?
Was it, was it being in frontof the camera and going like I
can do this better?
Or was it?
Or was it like I think I canmake some really interesting
work with the knowledge I knowas an actor?

(29:19):
But where was the actual spark?
Where did that come from, totry out directing?

Speaker 1 (29:23):
yeah, so I keep talking about it.
But tom, yeah, healy.
Yeah, he was my head of actingum at drama school and I don't
know whether he just went.
This girl's a control freak uh,she needs to put that energy
somewhere or what it was well um, you have to ask him.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
Well, you haven.
You haven't directed me beforeI know I'll let you know if we
ever work together Exactly Likeoh, I'm not doing that again.
Yeah, no, avoid her seriously.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
But he kept forcing me into these situations where I
would have to direct, and itwas kind of funny at first
because I thought it was acoincidence.
Like every year, I think fromsecond year, we did a film block
as a student body.
Basically, everyone had to actin the film.
They tried to make it that youhad to have everyone in even
roles, which is like never goingto happen.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
Oh, it's so hard, and you also had to-.
How do you find material forthat?
Well, you have to write it.
You have to write it, oh my God.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
So you have to devise it as a group.
Write it out.
This is why I wouldn't have,and it was really tough because
we're not cinematographers.
We're not lighting designers,we're not costume designers.
And so it was really difficultto try and coordinate all of
that.
And I remember the first filmthat I did, I think I said I
would be a writer and then Iended up co-directing it, and

(30:37):
then none of these will see thelight of day.
By the way, if you have a copy,delete it or I will find you,
but like seriously, it was sobad.
But delete it, or I will findyou, but like seriously, it was
so bad.
But the second one I ever did,I was adamant I was not going to
direct and then my friendLockie Williams, who's a really
beautiful actor and musician.
He was set to direct it and thenhe got really sick and we were

(31:01):
right there ready to shoot oh no.
And I remember my film teacherpulling me aside and being like
you have to do it, you have todirect it.
And I was like what?
This was the one thing I said Iwasn't gonna do.
So I did it and it was toughbut it was fine.
And then third year film waslike the big film and I remember
talking about it with so manypeople.
I was like absolutely 100.

(31:22):
No, I am not directing it, I donot care.
Yeah, I'm not doing it again,because it was so stressful and
so difficult and I didn't knowwhat I was doing.
And it was like a couple ofheads of department that were
like everybody, choose what youwant to do, but we're going to
decide who's directing it andwho's writing it.
And I remember sitting in thismeeting being like can't wait to
just be like right at numberfour in the team.

(31:44):
Yeah.
And he was like so Virginia'sgoing to be directing?
I was like you are actuallyjoking Like this is the last
thing I wanted.
I don't understand why you'redoing this.
To me this is so difficult LikeI've never been more stressed
in my life.
But there was no discussion.
It was like that's what'shappening.

Speaker 2 (32:02):
That's what's happening, yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
There was one day in particular where I was like this
is a disaster.
It's all falling apart.
It was like one week out fromshooting.
I was like why have you donethis to me?

Speaker 2 (32:11):
He was like Virginia.

Speaker 1 (32:12):
Be honest, where else were you going to be, like you
are meant to be, a director?
There's like guide peoplebecause you're skilled at doing
that and at the time I was likeI don't think that anyone else
thinks that except for you, mate, like nobody else wants to have

(32:34):
me in this role.
I don't want to be in this role.
It's like really, reallydifficult.
He was like no, trust me, likeI put you in this role for a
reason and it's because I cansee that you have really good
potential as a director.
Oh, that's really's reallysweet.
It was so lovely and like.
At the time I was like, butit's still really hard, but like

(32:57):
now I look at it and I go, ohmy God, he knew before I did.
And I do think that, despitethe fact that I don't think
anyone in my year would say thatthose films were a pleasant
experience, like they werealways difficult, but despite
that I really do credit the factthat I was always put in that
position with why I was able tomake Dragon and the Chain as my
first film because, I had madeso many mistakes Like every

(33:21):
mistake you could possibly makeas a director, as a writer, I
made it in those films and theenvironment allowed me to fail,
yeah, and go okay.
Well, that wasn't great, butthat taught me a lot about what
works and what doesn't work, sothat when it did come to being
on a film set, as a director,yeah, as a writer I hope that I

(33:45):
was able to run that seteffectively you know and make it
an enjoyable experience.
And.
I know I loved being on set andI loved working with everyone
and everything went reallysmoothly, which I do also credit
the crew that I had, majorly Ofcourse, that's the difference
you have from trying to make afilm in drama school, where
everyone is an actor, notfilmmakers.

Speaker 2 (34:08):
in drama school where everyone is an actor, not
filmmakers, where I wouldimagine that that experience
would be, so much pressure onyou as the director and the sort
of obligation to sort of haveyour hands on every little
department, which is sodifferent to what it's really
like when you're working withdedicated crew yeah that know

(34:32):
their job and know theirobligations and and are there to
take that pressure off you soyou can just focus on your job.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
Yeah, directly, and I mean, I also think like it
wasn't just the other people inmy year, it was also at the time
.
I didn't want to be a director,I wanted to be an actor.
And being a director meant Ihad the smallest role in every
film we did because I didn'thave the capacity to direct and
also do a lead role.

(35:00):
It just wasn't possible.
And so I remember being sofrustrated because I was like,
well, I never get to do likeanything meaty in film acting
because I'm constantly.
Well, I never get to do likeanything meaty in film acting
because I'm constantly directing.
Yeah.
And that was, you know, I think, a big reason why I felt
tension about it, because I waslike well, I want to make sure
I'm doing a good job foreveryone else yeah, yeah.
But like at the time I was likeI want to also be acting.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
Yeah, I want to be directed by someone.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
Exactly.

Speaker 2 (35:24):
Yeah, so when did you graduate?

Speaker 1 (35:26):
2021.
Okay.

Speaker 2 (35:28):
And so what was that experience like?
After uni, you know, what didyou go into Like.
What was your first film oryour first experience?
Did you just like go straightinto theatre, or did you find
opportunities in film, or didyou continue to?

Speaker 1 (35:42):
direct or what.
Yeah, it was tough.
I mean we were sort of thesecond COVID year.
Oh, of course, yeah.
So I mean I was really luckythat I'd had two theatre
projects lined up right awaybefore I left.
One of them was with Cram, theother one was with Connor Reedy
for his grad show.
Yeah.
And those were so amazing and Icame out and was like, oh, this

(36:03):
is so nice.
And then those projects endedand I was like guys, and then
those projects ended and I waslike guys like what are we doing
now?
And it was like, well, there'snothing because there's too many
risks, like definitely it wasreally quite a brutal start to
my experience to industry,because it was like nothing was
happening like literally zero.

(36:24):
And every you know, every agentyou contact, or at least you
know.
At the time it was like wecan't take anyone new on because
we can't even get work for ouractors that we already have.
Like so sorry, contact us inthree years.
You know you set theseexpectations of what your life
is going to look like when youcome out of drama school.
And they're almost always wrong, but like this was particularly

(36:45):
wrong because it was like therewas no student film to hustle
in.
There was no short indie filmthat was being produced, like it
was empty.
Yeah, it was definitely not aneasy intro to industry.

Speaker 2 (36:59):
So when did it start picking up then, man I?

Speaker 1 (37:02):
had a few different things like really really major
family illness and things likethat that meant that I stepped
away from the arts pretty muchcompletely, um until sort of, I
guess 2024 really, wow, okay, um, I started writing dragging the
chain because I was dealingwith this you know close family

(37:24):
member who was terminally illand I was like I need to be
creative because I feel like ifyou're a creative person, that's
not a job that you do, that's athing that you are yeah, and
and being away from it for solong I was like I just think I'm
going insane not making stuffand you know, coming out, I was
disillusioned a little bit withthe kinds of roles that were

(37:46):
available to me.
Yeah, you know, I went through aperiod where I I think I did
like five or six auditions in arow for like dead girlfriend
number two you know it was likeI can't do another dead
girlfriend like please, yeah,let me do something else.
But I was like, okay, well, Ineed a creative outlet to cope
with what's going on in my life.

(38:06):
Yeah, and I'm also, if I'm nothappy with the roles that are
out here for for me or for womenin general, or you know
whatever, I can be the person tocreate that.
Yeah absolutely and so that kindof brought me back into the
arts a little bit yeah intowriting and yeah, yeah, and it
kind of directing again and yeahyeah, because I really I hadn't

(38:28):
thought about directing reallyat all until I started writing
this project and I was soconvinced that this thing was
never gonna get made, like yeahit was like a two week long
minimum, two weeks shoot in thedesert.
So you have to house 30 pluspeople oh my god in the outback
for two weeks.
But when I was pitching it Iwas like like there's no way,

(38:51):
like they'd have to be insane,because the other part of it was
it wasn't just that, I wouldsay, 50 of the film takes place
in a moving vehicle, which islike not, you really shot
yourself in the foot I know wellthat's.
I had such hubris because I waslike it's never getting made.
So I was like I'll just writewhat I want to write yeah, yeah,
I I don't want to just writethe the typical first film,

(39:12):
which is definitely what I didin drama school that was like
it's all set in a living roomand you know we just talk a lot
like I was like no, I lovehorror films, I love thrillers I
I love road movies.
Like I want to try and writethat so is that what it is?
yeah, yeah um and kate, whostarred in the film.
Yeah, um, very, very, veryclose friend of mine for a very

(39:32):
long time yeah, she was crazyenough to help me write a grant
application for helpman.
Um, then I sent it off, didn'thear anything.
Then they got me in for a callback and they were like we want
to interview you.
And I was like, oh my god, likewhat is going on.
Yeah, how good and then I got inthere and they were so lovely,
but I basically sat at the headof this table with, like some of

(39:54):
the the leading industryprofessionals in the state wow,
and was like here's why youshould give me ten thousand
dollars as someone who has noidea what they're doing.
Um, and I think our budget Iknow it's like a bit taboo to
talk about money, but whatever,I think I think at the time our
budget was like 40 grand, yeah,and I was like, look, we're only

(40:19):
gonna get 10 grand from thesepeople yeah.
I remember we applied foranother grant and they were like
you I've got to be joking likethere's no way you're going to
raise that amount of money, um.
But I went in and I must haveyapped long enough and
convincing enough that they werelike you know what, let's just
give her a shot, let's just seewhat happens.

(40:39):
Really, yep.
And they ended up awarding itto me, um, as someone who had
never really made a film before,and I was so grateful, like I
just I couldn't even believe it.
And then the reality set inthat I was actually going to
have to make the film and I waslike oh the pressure oh my God,
like what have I done?

(41:01):
Because I've written thisincredibly ambitious idea
thinking oh well, you know.
I'll never actually have towork out the logistics of that
and then, thank goodness, Iended up finding the crew that I
did because, they were so onboard and so good at being
supportive and like everybodyjust really wanted to make it,

(41:22):
which was such a blessing likethat.
I don't think that alwayshappens on sets like that.
Everyone is like a 100%.
We want to make this work.
Yeah, like poor Maddie Ziegertzwho was producer one of the
producers on this project.
She was so wonderful.
She's like fielding my phonecalls at 2am, being like what
are we going to do?

(41:43):
Like I've just got this emailor this thing isn't working or
whatever, and she was like wewill handle it.
Like, and you know know, Rileywas so incredible like he's just
so phenomenal at what he does,oh my god like I just adore him.
Um, and he was so great toobecause I I've never experienced

(42:04):
it, thankfully, but Idefinitely had heard other
female directors who were likejust be mindful of
cinematographers, becausesometimes you know, they can
talk down to you or whatever,and I was like oh okay, like I
can't imagine Riley doing thatnever, no, and he, I, literally
I came into it not just can'timagine.
I know Riley wouldn't know, hewouldn't know he's so good like
that, but also like I came intoit going dude, I don't Like.

(42:28):
I don't know what I'm doing.
I think that you're great, butlike I'm going to be honest,
like there are going to be timeswhere you're going to say
something to me and I'm going togo, what does that mean?
Like, what lens is that?
I don't understand what thatterm means you know, but that's
why you have Riley, exactly.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
Because, that's his job.
Well, yeah, that's the thing,and I know that he's the kind of
guy that would you know.
If you seem like you're seekinga moment to learn something, he
would do that in a reallygracious way.

Speaker 1 (42:58):
Absolutely, I mean.
I'm sure of that you know, yeah,and I mean I will say I was
kind of astounded at howwelcoming the film community is,
like I've just had nothing butpositive experiences, which is
so wonderful, like every singleperson I've come across has been

(43:19):
so supportive, so welcoming,like so many of the film guys
that I admired for years and waslike oh my God, they're so
amazing, like I hope I get towork with them one day.
Yeah, like coming to thescreenings and stuff they're
like supporting.
Yeah, it's just like sowonderful and so supportive.
And I think like the nicestthing that I've sort of

(43:41):
recognised this long out ofdrama school is like if one
person wins, everybody wins.
Yeah.
Like I think there's definitelythis sort of cliche that actors
in particular are like preyingon other people's downfalls or
they're really jealous or youknow like, and obviously that's
a natural response.
There's nothing wrong withseeing someone else get a gig

(44:03):
you really wanted and going likeman, I wish I'd got that.
But like, ultimately, ifsomebody manages to reach
incredible heights or they do aproject that's really fantastic
and it takes off, that is only agood thing for everybody else
in this industry.
Yeah, that's it, you knowbecause it's like what does
competition really achieve?

Speaker 2 (44:22):
Yeah, it just kind of singles you out and isolates
you from people.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
Yeah, and it makes you feel insecure.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
That's the only thing that it ultimately achieves you
know, it cuts you off frompeople and as soon as you lean
into those feelings, you're yourown island then, and people
won't back you anymore.

Speaker 1 (44:42):
No, but it's easier said than done, obviously, I
think, coming from a place ofcuriosity and and wanting to
learn from everyone, um, andknowing that, like everybody who
you come into contact with hassomething valuable that you can
learn from them, and like thatalso, you just don't know where
people are going to end up inthis industry.

(45:03):
It's so random and like someonethat you met, who was you know,
an extra on a random ad thatyou did could end up on the next
major TV show or you know somebig film for Netflix or whatever
, and it's like you just don'tknow where these paths are going
to go.

Speaker 2 (45:23):
So, yeah, it's so tough not to be a comparison
game in this job, speaking oflike toxic thoughts, that kind
of sneak into your, into yourhead.
Since I've started doing this,the feedback has been so nice,
like so lovely, and people aretuning in and they and they're
sending me really amazingmessages and it's it's, it's all
positive yeah and and even theeven if I have received

(45:44):
criticism or not.
Not even criticism, just feetconstructive feedback, like I
don't know what's going tohappen.
Like you know, we just hitrecord and we sit down, we have
a chat and like obviously wecheck in with each other about
what kinds of things, whatdirection we want to go, but
like it just is what it is andlike and that's how you keep it
genuine and real.
But what I find when peoplegive me feedback is I sort of

(46:06):
have this response of like Idon't have any control over it.
What do you mean?
Like how am I supposed toimplement these things?
I don't know what's going tohappen.
What I've realized is that whensomeone else is giving me
feedback, what that means isI've made something and I've put
it out in the world and theyfeel a sense of ownership over
it, which is really lovely.
Like they feel the sense that,like you've given me this thing

(46:28):
and now it's, it's.
I'm a stakeholder in it, youknow, and I want it to be as
good as it can be and I've gotmy own ideas and I want, I want
to shape it.
Can I give you these ideas and,as the creator, I can take that
or leave it so okay, so you'reabout to put your film out into
into this festival down underfilm festival
yeah, as a first-time director,where you know you can

(46:49):
self-analyse and go.
I know what's wrong with it andI'm okay with what's wrong with
it because I can see mymistakes or where I've grown
already.
But people are going to come atyou and say you know they're
going to write reviews.
Oh, I really like this.
But this was a problem and it'spart of the contract of putting
something out into the world.
I mean, how do you take that?
Like, are you prepared to takethat?

(47:10):
How are you preparing to takethat?

Speaker 1 (47:12):
You know, yeah, so I think any feedback that anyone
has obviously, like you canfilter it.
But, like you said, you knowyou don't need to take on every
piece of feedback, and Idefinitely didn't.
But, like, if somebody respondsto my film and has a note or has
feedback that's valuable to me,yeah, and if you can step
outside of how personal thatfeels, yeah, because as much as

(47:36):
I would like to, you know, feellike I can make whatever I want
in a bubble and I don't careabout what the audience and just
have people tell you everythingyou do is wonderful.
Exactly, I don't grow like that,you know and like there's only
so much that you can reallyanalyze yourself.
You need other people to seeyour work and respond to it and
I I found that doing it from areally early point and doing it

(48:00):
often desensitized me a littlebit to that criticism.
And I know a lot of peopledon't like to do that because
they feel like it's probablyindividual to the project you
know, know, like, what are youworking on?
How, what, at what point do yougive it to people?
I think it's definitely reallyimportant, like I just applied
for funding for my first feature, which is very exciting.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
Oh, amazing, thank you.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
And I definitely waited, like I haven't shown
anyone outside of my family whatthat outline looked like and I
didn't even tell them about theidea until I'd finished the
outline, because I was like no,I know that if I sort of speak
this out too early, that it'snot ready for feedback and it
could kill it.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
Yeah, it's going to start shaping, you're going to
start pleasing other people'sexpectations or trying to
appease other people'sexpectations, and then
eventually you forget why youstarted and it won't be yours
anymore.
But yeah, you're right, I thinkwhen I have an idea to do
something, I get so excited, orlike it's the same feeling as
when you're sort of on hold fora role, yes, and you're like, oh

(49:01):
, ndas, yeah, I want to telleveryone you know it's that same
feeling and I've got to.
I don't know where I learnedthis.
I heard this and it's not myoriginal idea, but I heard it
once and it really stuck with meDon't announce your plans until
the ball is really rolling oruntil you think it's ready to

(49:21):
receive some feedback.
But, yeah, don't announce yourplans, because with this I had
this idea and I didn't tellanyone.
I think I told Nick Launchbury.
But if I started telling people, especially like all my acting
peers and filmmaker peers if Istarted telling people, then I
was worried that people wouldstart being like taking
ownership of it too soonthemselves as the recipient of

(49:44):
this product and going well, itshould be like you should do
this, you should do this, youshould do this.
And I think if you take on allthat feedback too early, they
can become creative blocks.
Absolutely and even now I'mstill really careful with what
feedback I do sort of take on.
It's that thing where it's likeI know I can self-analyze, but

(50:07):
I really appreciate that youcare enough to give me feedback
because, you know it's.
It's such a really lovely thingfor them to do absolutely but
you must have gotten used tothat in drama school as well
absolutely because I'm in my ownecho chamber where I'm.
I'm out here doing this on myown, yeah, and going that was
good work, and not hearingreally any feedback because I'm

(50:27):
so isolated.

Speaker 1 (50:32):
Yeah, I definitely think that drama school was
super helpful at desensitisingyou to feedback.
It does definitely give you athick skin when you have to do
it every day, and every singleday is like I know I'm going to
get looked at and analysed andpicked apart for my benefit.
But it's not comfortable in themoment.
No, no know, I'm going to getlooked at and analyzed and
picked apart for my benefit.
Yeah, but it's not comfortablein the moment.
No, no, and sometimes you knowyou're having an off day or you

(50:55):
haven't prepared because you'rea bit tired.

Speaker 2 (50:57):
And you're in front of your peers Yep, and it's
happening and they're allwatching.
You receive this information.

Speaker 1 (51:03):
Yeah, it definitely makes you, I think, also more
generous to other actors atleast from my perspective,
because everyone is at differentstages and has different things
they need to work on, and it'snever just a straight upward
trajectory.
Everybody's doing peaks andvalleys and plateaus and all
that kind of stuff.
Nobody is above criticism inthat environment.

(51:23):
No.
And you just don't know whenit's going to be your turn to
have an amazing day and do greatwork, or when it's going to be
your turn to have an amazing dayand do great work, or when it's
going to be your turn to betorn a new one.
Yeah, that definitely keeps youhumble.

Speaker 2 (51:35):
I think yeah.
So you wrote Dragging the Chainand you've just written your
own feature, your first feature.

Speaker 1 (51:43):
You've kind of gone through this journey of like
trying out so many differentthings right like music, acting,
directing and writing yeah, soI never had one specific thing
yeah that I was like oh, I haveto just do that, and I guess
maybe like the closest thing toit would have been music, and
that was that was purely becauseI'd been exposed to it for so

(52:05):
long.
You know, starting at threeit's like a long times, um yeah
but I I think I always resentedwhen people would tell me that I
had to do one thing.
I think I got to choosesomething, yeah it got
particularly hard, obviously, asyou you get, you know, towards
the end of school, becausethere's some really logical,
reasonable questions of likeyeah how are?

(52:26):
You gonna make money yeah, youcan't just be hopping around too
much like at some are you goingto make money?

Speaker 2 (52:28):
What are you going to do?
You can't just be hoppingaround too much At some point.
We've got to kind of narrow itdown to a couple of things at
least.

Speaker 1 (52:35):
You know and like, there's a natural desire to want
to categorise what kind ofartist you are right that I
noticed when I made Dragging theChain.
People stopped calling me anactor, they started calling me a
filmmaker.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, calling me an actor, they
started calling me a filmmaker.

Speaker 1 (52:48):
Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, it's like that's great
because I love being called afilmmaker.

Speaker 2 (52:50):
You guys better not call me a podcaster.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
I'm an actor, yeah, still an actor yeah, it's like
you know, and that's a naturalthing to want to do is go like
oh, that person's doing thisthing, so that's that's what
they they are yeah and I thinkin some settings that's super
helpful, like if I'm going to anetworking event for film.
It's not particularly helpfulfor me to go up to a producer or

(53:12):
you know any industry personand go oh, I'm Virginia and I'm
a musician, actor, writer,producer, like the list of
things.
They just go.
What?

Speaker 2 (53:22):
are you Like?
What are you hoping to find?
I know what you mean.
Like professionally, it doesreally help.
Like that was something for mewhen I started, just being sure
of myself and just introducingmyself as an actor.
It was a very sudden shift.
People's perception of me washe's an actor and they believed

(53:43):
me.
And.
I'm just lying.
I'm not anymore.
I'm just lying, I'm not anymore.
I'm not really.

Speaker 1 (53:54):
But like, I think what I've kind of learnt is that
I am allowed to pivot at anytime.
Yes and like, just because I'vespent, you know, four years at
drama school and another fouryears working in industry
doesn't mean I have toexclusively do acting.
Like I can actually decide youknow what right now I want to
produce, or I want to direct, or, you know and I.
That's so freeing to me to go.

Speaker 2 (54:15):
I think it's a fairly contemporary idea though, yeah,
but also necessary.
Yeah, because to be in thisindustry now, you have to be
multi-hyphenate, and it's it'sonly going to work in your favor
, anyway.
Yeah.
But all your experiences haveallowed you this freedom to sort
of hop around and today I'm adirector.

(54:36):
But I'm a good director becauseI'm an actor and I'm a good
creative because I'm a musician.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
You know, and I'm a good filmmaker because I'm a
storyteller- yeah.
And I write stories.
You know what I mean.
Like it's a package, yeah, youknow.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
Absolutely, and I think, like feeling like you
can't pursue something becauseyou're an actor or you're this
kind of person or that kind ofperson.
It just holds you back fromthings that could be really
enjoyable.
Yeah.
And if I had have told myselfwell, no, I can't make a film
because I haven't trained atfilm school and I I've never
made a film, really apart fromuni.

(55:10):
Yeah, what a horrible shamethat would be if I had have said
but that's not what I am, it'snot what I do, yeah, yeah you
know and leaving that door open,allowing myself to kind of be
be flexible and be justintuitive about what it is that
feels good for me at that time,yeah, whatever that is, and
we're lucky that time.
Yeah, whatever that is.

Speaker 2 (55:29):
And we're lucky.
I think we're so lucky that youknow this is a privileged thing
, but like we are lucky to beable to act upon our creative
impulses and make a choice likethat.
Yeah.
We're so lucky, but it is whathas guided us in this direction.
And you know we're not makingmoney, but we are fulfilled.

(55:53):
Yeah, you know, and I cleanhouses other, you know that's my
bread and butter yep and I makea little bit of money from
commercials but you know it's.
You can't rely on that yeah butI'm I found something that I
just get so much fulfillmentfrom, and I don't get to do it
all the time.
Yeah, like I rarely get to doit, but I wake up every day and
I think about acting and I thinkabout you know what my peers

(56:18):
are doing, and I'm just likeit's constantly in my head.
Yeah, and I couldn't be happierlike I get to act maybe once
every two months.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
Yeah, that's so real, but I'm an actor every day and
I feel so happy about that, youknow we were talking a little
bit earlier, off off camera,about anxiety and feeling like
sometimes you know you, you area person that does things, and
sometimes you're a person thattalks about doing things yeah,
and I've definitely been both metoo um and I.

(56:49):
Are you familiar with the figtree analogy from okay?
It is basically talking aboutthis woman who's sitting at the
bottom of a fig tree and shesees like her life spread out
before her and all of thedifferent things she could be
are these, these figs at theends of each branch, but she
can't make a decision aboutwhich one she wants to be, and
so they all plop off the treeand rot and die at her feet,

(57:10):
right oh yeah and I remember Iwas just having this moment
where I was like I I feelparalyzed by too many options
and like there's so many thingsI want to do and I just don't
know what to do.
And I remember saying this to mybrother and he was like man,
fuck that fig tree, eat all thefigs.
You know you can do it allthat's bullshit like yeah you
don't have to just defineyourself by one specific thing

(57:33):
you can actually eat all thefigs.
Yeah, um, yeah, yeah you knowyeah and and that waiting is is
not gonna achieve anything youknow it's not gonna make me feel
good and it's not.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
Figs will go rotten exactly.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
They'll go rotten regardless.
You can either enjoy them whilethey're here or you can let
them go.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
Yeah yeah, it kind of makes me think about the, the,
the paralysis that I felt fromfrom sort of allowing the
anxieties of of pursuingsomething get in the way of
actually taking action.
Yeah, like I was saying in thekitchen, like with music, like I
played music for years and Iplayed cover gigs for years and

(58:12):
it was very lucrative and Ibusked and it was like so fun
and so exciting and it was likeI loved it so much.
But the dream was always towrite my own music.
But I was always blocked bycomparison and I would look at
the bands that I adore and Iwould say, well, they've already
written all the good songs.
They're already, they'realready doing it.

(58:34):
Like what am I going tocontribute to this world?
you know, yeah, and I and I'lltry to write stuff and I'll just
be like it's unfinished so ofcourse it's crap and because I
hadn't really pushed through andlet it, let it evolve, and I
would look at these other bands,but it's not what they're doing
and I'll just and and just giveup on it.

(58:54):
Yeah, and I never pursued itand the figs went rotten you
know, but thank god I, like, wasable to transcend those things
and just do it anyway andactually take action with this
acting thing.
I just didn't do it with some ofthe other avenues that I really
, really wanted to pursue, butit you know, those doors aren't

(59:14):
closed.
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (59:16):
No, and I think like something that I talk about with
my brother.
A lot is the fear of cringe andhow debilitating that is
because everything is cringeuntil it works, and I think
giving yourself the permissionto do something poorly is so
freeing because, you reallydon't know where those songs

(59:39):
could have gone.
Or you know, if I had have shutdown every idea I ever had
before I wrote it, then Iwouldn't have the films that I
have now and like to be seen astrying.
I think, particularly inAustralia, is such a deeply
embarrassing thing.
But it's so worthwhile toendure that embarrassment, to

(01:00:00):
endure that cringe, for the sakeof trying something new,
because you don't know until yougive it a shot what could come
of it and how good it could be.

Speaker 2 (01:00:10):
It's so true, the fear of cringe man.
It's so real.
And it's another reason why Itry not to announce my plans.
Because if I announce my plansto anyone, I find their initial
reaction is but what if thishappens?
Or what if you don't make it?
Or what if this?
And, yeah, you're alreadyfeeling that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
And if you don't give it a go, like, hey, of course
it could all turn to shit, itcould all fail.
But you know, people have theirbest interests at heart and
they're saying it because theydon't want you to feel those
feelings, they don't want you togo through the failure.
Yeah, but you just won't startif you lean into those anxious

(01:00:53):
feelings.

Speaker 1 (01:00:54):
Absolutely, and the starting is the thing right,
yeah.
Like I'm so bad at trying toplan too much Like we were
talking about with you know,lauren's episode feeling like
I've always been the girl who'slike sitting there meticulously
making the one teapot the entiretime and constantly trying to
make whatever I'm doing perfectyeah and I really had to learn

(01:01:14):
to let go of that once I leftdrama school in particular
because I was like well, ifevery gig I ever do has that
much pressure, I'm gonna quit,like I, I won't enjoy it.
And one of the biggest things Ilearnt from drama school about
acting was tension will kill itevery single time.
Mental tension physical tension, vocal tension, it is like the

(01:01:38):
root of every problem.
And the second that you havetension.
You can hear it, you can feelit, you can see it Other actors
in the room can feel it Like itis such a killer and I was
finding that I was putting somuch pressure on myself that I
wasn't able to be present withthe other actors.
Yeah, I wasn't able to bepresent with the script.

(01:01:59):
I wasn't, I wasn't.
I was so fixated on like am Ibeing perfect?
That I wasn't being generous tothe other artists in the room
yeah and that killed it too.
And so, yeah, you know, I I lookback at some of those really
early film projects that I didand I'm like man, if only you
just accepted that, like, noteverything you're going to do is

(01:02:19):
going to be the highlight ofyour career yeah I actually
think probably those projectswould have been way better than
they were if I just took thepressure off and went let's
relax and see what I can do andplay around rather than focusing
on on feeling like you need itto be perfect the very first
time.

Speaker 2 (01:02:35):
Yeah, I think that's what I started to feel too.
I think that's why I feel sorelaxed on a set now, because,
yeah, I just don't know what'sgoing to happen and I just
don't't have any control over it.
And yes, of course, I do allthe homework and you, you're a
professional, so you put allthat work in beforehand.
But at the end of the day, onceyou, once you're there, you,
you just you trust the peoplearound you and you let it go and

(01:02:56):
you know it's not going to beperfect, but you're going to
capture something magic yeah, doyou?
know what I mean.
If, if you're free from those,from those inhibitions, do you
know Absolutely?

Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
But, yeah, like it's having the freedom to play
around and the connection withthe other actor in the room is
what makes a scene.
And I think that you know I'mso grateful that I did so much
acting before I came todirecting, because I think that
it really changed the way Iwould have if I'd started in
directing before acting.

(01:03:25):
I think I would not be anywherenear as good.
I think my ethos also maybethis comes from being less
experienced as a director, butI've always felt like for me as
a director and I've never feltlike this as an actor.
But as a director, I alwaysfeel like I'm the least
important person in the room,like my job is essentially to
steer everyone in doing theirincredible creative work in a

(01:03:49):
specific direction, and I'm notlike some overlord that knows
exactly what the right thing todo is at all times, and that's
why I love working with actors.
Yeah, so lucky that I had theteam I did on Dragon Chain,
because they're all coming at itfrom really different
viewpoints and have differentlanguage for things and

(01:04:10):
different you know just ways ofattacking a script, but I hope
that I was able to give them thespace to tell me if they wanted
to try something, to feel likethey shouldn't be scared to talk
to me or to talk to camera ortalk to anyone on set.

Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
It's way too much pressure for you to feel like
you have to offer all of theideas.
That's why we choose the actorsthat we choose, because we want
people and, as an actor, youwant to be bringing your own
ideas to the set and, as adirector, you're curating an
open dialogue between you andyour actors.

Speaker 1 (01:04:48):
And I think I'm sure you've experienced this too,
Like I've been on many setswhere especially the bigger ones
, where you kind of feel a bitscared to say, oh actually, I've
got an idea.
And like and it's like I neverwant to make actors feel like
that.
I know they probably do anywaybecause it's such a, you know,

(01:05:09):
funny environment to like be infront of people.
But I really try when I'mdirecting to open up that
dialogue enough that if anactor's like I hate that line,
I'll be like brilliant, why?
What is it that you don't likeabout it?
What can we do to change it?
And sometimes you know, like Ithink there was a line or two
that like Jude had or Kate hadthat they're like I don't really

(01:05:31):
know about this one and I waslike nah, like that's important
for these reasons, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:05:36):
Yeah, you got to make sure the story is going to get
told.

Speaker 1 (01:05:39):
Yeah, but then I went okay, but like what is it
exactly that's feeling weirdabout it?
Because, even though I mightneed you to say those specific
words for a reason that's youwouldn't know, because it's
going to be important in theedit or whatever, um, what is it
that's feeling off?
Let's talk about it, let's workthrough it and going probably
much to my beautiful ad's dismaygoing we will hold until we

(01:06:02):
work this out.
You know like I think the job ofa director is to look at the
actors that you have assembledor to look at the crew that you
have assembled and read the roomand go.
What does this person want?
Because on Dragging the Chain,there were moments where, like I
could see, Kate had somethingand she didn't want to talk
about it and I was likebrilliant let's just go Capture

(01:06:25):
it, you know.
And like, see what it is Othertimes with her or other actors.
You're like okay, I can seethat this isn't quite working.
How am I going to approach it?
What?
What do they need?
Do they need like a little bitof a physical reset?
Like, do we need to talk it out?

(01:06:47):
Do we need to just do it acouple more times?
It's your job as the directorto assess that for the actors.
And I think I feel stronglyabout rehearsal personally.
Um, because I think it justgives everybody the freedom to
know what they're walking intoon set.
But I know a lot of actorsdon't like to rehearse, so then
I would go.
Well, rehearsal is important tome, but if I'm working with an
actor who really doesn't want torehearse, so then I would go
well, rehearsal is important tome, but if I'm working with an

(01:07:07):
actor who really doesn't want torehearse the lines, maybe we're
not rehearsing the lines in ourrehearsal.
Maybe we're talking through whatwe're feeling in a scene or
what actions we're using, or youknow, we're just talking
generally about the script, yeah, but familiarizing ourself with
the space or with the othercreatives or with how we talk
about acting, and I think, yeah,it's very much a job of

(01:07:29):
tailoring your approach towhoever you've got in the room
and so that you can get the bestout of them.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
Yeah, for sure it made me think.
You know, I was talking beforeabout feeling intimidated by
directors or crew and I realiseI think sometimes directors have
felt intimidated by theiractors.

Speaker 1 (01:07:48):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:07:49):
And scared to ask for things or to try things.
And I think that's where it'sthe confidence thing of building
that relationship andunderstanding the conversation
and facilitating a really fluiddialogue.
You know.
And facilitating a really fluiddialogue, you know, because

(01:08:10):
I've at times had sort of newerdirectors that have felt they
wanted to ask me for somethingright, and I could see I'm like,
just what is it?
Just come and talk to me aboutit, you know.
Or they feel the need to moveon from a scene really quickly
because they don't want to wastemy time.
I'm like, mate, I would do 100takes of this happily you know,

(01:08:30):
if we can get some variety, ifwe can discover something that
we can't.
Even we couldn't talk aboutwhat's going to happen, because
we might figure something out onthe seventh take, do you know
what I mean.
It might just happen and youmight not even notice until the
edit.
Yeah, where you're scrubbingthrough that footage and you're
going whoa, yeah, I didn't evenknow that happened, you know,

(01:08:53):
but yeah, I, I my my message todirectors is like I just want
people to feel comfortable tohave this have these
conversations with, with youknow both ways.
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (01:09:04):
like absolutely yeah and I think the other part of
that that you know feeds intothat fear is, I think, really
that that ability to admit thatmaybe you don't know what it is
that you want or you don'treally know what you're doing in
that moment, or that you areunsure as to where to go, like I
think I love.

Speaker 2 (01:09:23):
I love it when a director comes up to me and says
I don't know.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:09:26):
I don't know, what to do.

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
You got any ideas.

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
Yeah, exactly, and.

Speaker 2 (01:09:29):
I'm like, oh, thank you so much for just being
honest and not trying to pretendthat you know everything.
Yeah, you know.

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
Because it is a collaborative process where
we're all trying to work out howto put together this puzzle.
Yeah, think that sometimesnewer directors can feel a lot
of pressure yeah to have all theanswers yes and you don't need
them like it?
You really don't.
In fact, most of the actorsthat I know don't necessarily
want to be told outright exactlywhat to do.

(01:09:56):
They want to have a discussionabout it and and find it
together yeah and so if youaren't sure as a director, I
think it's such a gift to givean actor to say like I'm, yeah,
I don't.
How are you feeling about it?
Like what, I don't really knowwhere to go from here.
Is there anything you want toplay with?
Like let's talk it through?
Yeah.
You know what are we feeling,what actions are we using?
Like yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
I've, I've had that are giving it a go.
It's awesome, you know, and I'mgiving it a go too.
This is not a criticism, it'sjust something that I've noticed
that before we've even done thefirst take, they are talking
through the whole scene and thenyou're going to do this and
then you're going to do this,and then you're going to say
this yeah, okay, block the scene.
Yeah, that's different, that'sdifferent.

(01:10:41):
But like really over explaining, and at this point you're going
to feel this and and you do,you know, you're going to yell
at her here or whatever.
And I just, I just think like,okay, so we're not even going to
do, do a first take and seewhat happens in that first take
and then be like, oh, that wasinteresting, that was

(01:11:02):
interesting.
And then mold it.
But the best directors thatI've worked with, like on this
TV series the other day or theother week now she just
introduced herself she's likeall right, have fun.
And I was like okay, I mean I'vealready done the audition, I
know what's happening in thescene.
The ADs explained the action,the blocking and that first take

(01:11:25):
.
Obviously we're not going touse the first take.
It was a complicated scene withlots of extras.
Obviously the first take is notgoing to be the one.
And she didn't talk to me forabout four takes and then she
came up to me and she goes yeah,nice, nice, I like what you're
doing there, let's try this.
And then she just left me alonefor another four takes and I

(01:11:47):
was just playing and I felt sofree and I felt like she trusted
me and that would have reallythrown me as an earlier actor,
because I was so used to havingmy hand held from before we even
did a take.
I mean, she's a bloodyworld-class director, having my
hand held from before we evendid a take, you know.
I mean, she's a bloodyworld-class director.

(01:12:10):
Yeah, but she felt it justshows you know.
She felt she really trusted usand she felt very comfortable to
come up and be like I love thatman, let's try this thing now
and just left me alone, andevery now and then I would just
look over after a take and she'dbe like keep going with that,
keep playing with that.
I was like cool, I'm creatingover here, Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:12:34):
And I think when you're talking about the younger
, more experienced directors,over-explaining I think that
comes from the same place ofperfectionism and wanting to get
it right.
And anxiety, yeah, and goinglike I really want to make sure
I'm giving them enough.

Speaker 2 (01:12:49):
Yeah, it comes from a good place, for sure.

Speaker 1 (01:12:55):
That.
It's like I think some lessexperienced directors can forget
that we know how to do our jobsjust as much as the DOP does,
or you know the lightingdesigner or the costume designer
, Like you've cast us for aspecific reason.

Speaker 2 (01:13:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:13:07):
And that goes beyond what we look like.
It's actually like what we canbring to the room, and what we
can bring to the room is thoseinterpretations.
And if you don't give the spacefor an actor to breathe and and
actually try some stuff beforeyou start having an opinion
about it.
That makes it really hard forus to do our jobs.
Yeah, for sure, which I thinkis why my entry point is always

(01:13:30):
take some acting classes and bein front of a camera.

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
It's such good advice , well, find some way to
understand the actor'sperspective.
Yeah, and like you know, that'swhy I started this podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:13:39):
Yeah, exactly Seriously.
Hey watch this podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
I was like I wish I could say this to a director,
and well, a new director, youknow.

Speaker 1 (01:13:48):
And I think it's just interesting, though, like
having been on both sides of itnow.
I have empathy for both sidesbecause I'm like it is, both of
them are so hard, they're suchhard jobs so complicated, yeah,
you're just riddled with anxiety.

Speaker 2 (01:14:01):
But if we can just learn that we're all on the same
team.

Speaker 1 (01:14:03):
Exactly and find that connection you know, um, even
if it is like, you know, whenyou're on that big set and
you're, maybe you're onlygetting those moments of
connection at the beginning andthen every now and then, when
they need a note, like even justthe little thing of like giving
a thumbs up or just you know,having those moments of
connection is really importantbecause it gives everyone that
sense of safety and that senseof like oh, I can actually, I

(01:14:27):
have something to bring here andif there's a problem, they'll
let me know or I can come tothem.
It's like, ultimately, we're allin it to make something really
good, and trusting each other todo that means that the work
will be better in the in the youknow the long run, and everyone
will enjoy themselves morebecause they feel like they're
able to actually you know workto their skillset and bring

(01:14:50):
something really beautiful to it.

Speaker 2 (01:14:51):
Yeah, absolutely Okay .
Where can we find you onsocials?

Speaker 1 (01:14:55):
You can find me on Instagram at Ginny spelled
G-I-N-N-I with underscores inbetween all of those letters,
Just to complicate it Just tocomplicate it, my film Dragging
the Chain will be out on YouTubeat some point soon.
Yeah, I will update you.

Speaker 2 (01:15:15):
And yeah, that's really it, hell yeah, well, all
the best with where is itCopenhagen?
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:15:24):
Yeah, it's been so great.

Speaker 2 (01:15:25):
Thank you so much for being here.

Speaker 1 (01:15:26):
Oh, thank you for having me.
It's been so much fun.

Speaker 2 (01:15:27):
This is awesome and thanks for putting up with my
very husky little voice and mycoughing.

Speaker 1 (01:15:34):
Don't be silly, it's totally fine, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:15:37):
This flu has gone on.
Well, it's not the flu now, butthis sickness has gone on for
like five weeks and I'm Poorthing.
Yeah, anyway, thank you so much, man.
Yes, how good was that?
Seriously, we could havechatted for hours.
In fact we did.
Even after this chat, I thinkwe chatted for like another hour

(01:15:58):
just about acting andfilmmaking in the kitchen.
So yeah, I don't know, we justlove to talk about this stuff.
Thanks for listening, guys.
Make sure you hit, subscribe,follow, share this episode on
your story, tell your friends,come on, guys, let's get this
out there.
And hey, if you really likewhat I'm doing here and if this
podcast fires you up creativelyand you'd like to support me and
what I'm doing here, you can doso by signing up to the Patreon

(01:16:19):
for as little as $5 a month atpatreoncom slash
gopluckyourselfpod.
Thanks to everyone that'salready signed up.
You guys are amazing.
Thank you so much.
Theme music is by the one andonly Nick Gunn.
That's my cousin.
You can check him out onSoundCloud at soundcloudcom
slash Nick Gunn.
I'll be back next week chattingto another very talented
filmmaker and very old friend ofmine, kellen Vanstone.

(01:16:42):
Make sure you don't miss thatepisode.
Thanks so much for listening.
Guys, stay positive, stayunited.
Reach out to a friend that's along way from home.
Give them some love, thank you.

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