Ep 7 Calen Vanstone: Finding Your Voice & Kicking Down Doors

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Callan Vanstone and you should go pluck
yourself.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
Hello, welcome to Go Pluck Yourself the Actor's
Pursuit.
My name is Chris Gunn and I'mreally excited to share this
episode with you guys today.
My guest today is my very goodfriend, very old friend, callan
Vanstone.
He's a director, writer,filmmaker, you know, and I've
known Callan since I was 16years old, which is more than

(00:35):
half of my life, which is kindof crazy to think about.
But Callan's always been therefor me.
You know, he's not just afellow creative, he's been a
very good friend of mine for along, long time.
He's got me through a lot ofvery difficult times and I'll
always be grateful for thefriendship that he's, you know
that we've had.
But aside from the really goodfriendship that we have, he and

(00:58):
I kind of have been on thiscreative journey, you know,
alongside each other for thelast, you know, 16 or 17 years
or whatever it is.
We both went to film schoolaround the same time.
That's where we kind of reallyconnected and ever since then
we've just I feel like we'veboth been very supportive of
each other's endeavors and I'mreally excited to see he's
finally getting his own ideasmade.

(01:18):
Obviously, he's been writingfor forever but he's finally
making some films.
He's just released a reallybeautiful short film, greg,
which is about thepersonification of anxiety,
which you can watch in the linkbelow I'll make sure I put a
link down there and he's justfinished shooting his first
feature film I think that waslast year or earlier this year
which I'm really excited to see.
I don't know too much about it,but I'm very excited for that

(01:40):
one.
And he's about to go intoproduction on his second feature
film.
So crazy ambitious guy Likeit's so exciting that he's
actually getting his ideas made.
He's pulling together thesebeautiful crews and it's just
really inspiring to see and I'mextremely proud of the guy.
We kind of talk about the thingsthat kind of held us back and
you know the things that were inour control, that we sort of of

(02:03):
used to hold ourselves back, toprocrastinate actually getting
started in this industry.
You know it's two white dudeswith microphones in a small room
, so it gets a little bit mental, healthy, forgive us for that.
That's who we are, that's whatwe do.
But yeah, if you're creative,if you're just starting out in
this industry, if you're facingsome of those, um, creative
blocks or those, uh,insecurities, I think I think

(02:24):
you might get a lot out of thisepisode, coming from a couple of
guys that waited way too longto get started but are finally
giving it a good push now.
So, yeah, I think it's a goodone.
If you like what I'm doing here,please support the podcast by
following or subscribingwherever you're listening or
watching, leave a comment, sharethe episode, all that sort of
stuff.
You know, the more engagementyou guys give this podcast, you
know it really helps thealgorithm and gets the podcast

(02:45):
in front of the right people.
So thanks so much for all thesupport and all the engagement,
and I love hearing your commentsand your feedback.
Before we get started, pleasegive his production company a
follow on Instagram at Cats orDeath Films.
That's Cats or Death Films, ifyou know.
You know and you don't know,but anyway, it's a long episode

(03:05):
so we'll just get into it.
Please enjoy my excellent chatwith my very good friend, callan
Vanstone.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
Man.
I came here prepared.
I put beard oil in my beard.

Speaker 3 (03:22):
That's a good place to do it.
That's a good start.
Yeah, does it look like I'vegot stuff in it?
I was going to say your beardis good.
Is it glistening?
Is it glistening for the camera?
Do you ever watch Flight of theConchords?
What is it?
You don't know?
Flight of the Conchords?
I'm joking, thank God, yeah,when Brett.
Your beard is good, fantastic,beautiful.

(03:43):
Your beard is good man.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah my beard.
Thank you, no, really reallygood man.
It's really nice to be kind ofuncomplicatingly good for the
most part, because this thing oflike you have to be brooding to
kind of make good art.
You have to be suffering, andDavid Lynch talks about.
He said something about thissort of like.
When I'm suffering I can't doanything.

Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
So like it's the bit when I'm clear of that and then
I can think, and then I whenyou're reflecting on it and
reflecting on it.
Yeah, I remember like I went tothis silver chair gig.
They played at the Clipsall backin 2005, or whatever and then
people like heckling, going liketo play like the old stuff yeah
, but people like heckling,going like to play like the old
stuff yeah, but the angle of thehecklers was like we liked it
better when you were depressed,yeah, and I'm like I understood

(04:28):
it enough to be like that'sfucking horrible.
Yeah, how, why would you wantthat on anyone?
Yeah, and then it felt likegetting into the arts and stuff
and it's like it felt like themessage was like you're one or
the other and and geniuses thatwere like the sufferers and the
kafkas that would only exist atnight and you know, like how
that gets dangerously kind ofperpetuated and idealised and
sort of fetishised.

(04:50):
Now in this last, probably likesix, seven months since we're
writing this new thing- it'slike the best writing I've ever
done and it's been probably thebest mental health space I've
been in, probably of my adultlife, probably the best it
health space I've been in,probably of my adult life,
probably the best it's ever been.
Again, it's not saying it's allhigh.

Speaker 3 (05:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:09):
But the lows, I know how to manage them and I
acknowledge them.
Yeah, and they're safe to be in,be steady, but then otherwise.
But it's, you know you've gotebbs and flows, I know.
I understand that, but they'relike you know how to return to
the baseline, yeah, yeah, butI'm, you know, and this is by
far the most personal thing I'veever done yeah, and I think
it's good to create from, like,having a bit of a chip on your
shoulder and stuff like that,something to kind of prove in

(05:31):
what you want to say, but thatyou also have to be in the dark
place of the thing that you'redoing While you write it.
Yeah, well, I think I mean it'slike a lot of it kind of
there's so much for so long hasbeen like once you're good, like
do not look back, like don't,like you're good, you're good,
oh, okay.
Just don't just keep theblinders on and go and live in

(05:54):
that and don't reflect, and thenyou miss all this growth.
It's the like, and that's whatI'm saying before is like.
I'm not saying that I'm like,okay, I'm good now, so I go into
a dark place to write.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
But I'm looking back at it safely.
I mean, I wouldn't dare do anyof it if I wasn't in a good
place.

Speaker 3 (06:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:10):
But, like I said, I think I really draw on like this
thing, like I said, this ideaof kind of having a chip on your
shoulder and, like you know,like I wasn't particularly
encouraged or supported at filmschool and I was obviously still
just trying to find mesupported at film school and I
was obviously still just tryingto find me, but ever since then
it's it's like, well, I've gotto prove them wrong which?
at least that drove me for alittle while, that kind of pride

(06:31):
thing.
But that's evolved into likewell, I wasn't the chosen one,
so my voice had to be earned, ina sense right and so then it
was like there's a friction andit's like it needs to be made to
get this voice out.
And it involves more and it'slike, oh, I've just got things I
want to say because I'm so waryof filmmakers who like start

(06:52):
out, and they are really wellreceived straight out the gate.

Speaker 3 (06:56):
Do you think that actually happens though?

Speaker 1 (06:58):
I think it's that thing of like.
Sometimes, like say, you go tofilm school and then you make
something and you kind of don'tknow quite what you're doing
yeah which you shouldn't by thatpoint really and then people go
oh wow, great amazing yeah andthen that's a high you'd want to
chase.
I just don't think school isthe place to like succeed.
I think the school is the placeto fail of course well, no, but

(07:20):
I don't think it's, but I thinkI don't think it's obvious all
the time and I don't thinkteachers encourage it maybe as
much as I feel like they shouldbut second year was like gloves
are off and it was like I madethis just super weird kind of
lynchy Eraserhead was right inmy brain and I was like no, I
want to chase that feelingBecause I can.
I'm not in the industry andteachers hated it.

(07:42):
My auntie at the screening wentup to one of my teachers and
been like oh, he was like proudof Kelly doing this thing and he
was like to my auntie at thescreening Really Fuck you.
But I was like I really had.
I was really locked into thisthing of like it felt bad but I
was getting it anyway and theyweren't seemingly approving of
my choices anyway.
So I might as well follow thatand learn from failing, because

(08:05):
I've got the safety net.
I've paid for this place.
There's all these resources.
You know, it's the same thing Italk to a lot of actors about,
about like when they graduatefrom acting school and I was
like do a fringe show, yeah, andlike not saying like hope it
bombs, but I'm'm like if it does, it's an amazing learning

(08:25):
experience.
You get the spectrum of hereare all the resources, here are
your family and friends.
Come and go.
Well done, they're encouragingand that's lovely.
But now go and do a thing whereyou've got no safety net, and I
think it really then teachesyou, like, how passionate you
are, how much you give a shitabout this thing.
Oh, that sucked.
But underneath all of that,there was this little jewel of a

(08:46):
feeling that I want to keep andhold, and so, yeah, I think I
just have an opinion and I don'tknow if it's just me built on,
like, built on the fact thatthat was what it was like for me
.
Yeah, but I think you justshould have to fight a little
bit for your idea, because inthe process of that fight, your
idea strengthens and it's like'slike, you know, when you talk
to people, you like read thescript, share a script with

(09:07):
someone, and it's like the bestthing you can do is get someone
to be like pulled apart, andthen you have to either justify
those decisions and then,through talking about justifying
it, you strengthen your idea oryeah, they go, oh shit.
Yeah, you're right, I've missedthat thing.

Speaker 3 (09:20):
Yeah, yeah, go back.
Yeah, I've missed that thing.
Yeah, yeah, go back.
Yeah, I think in those earlieryears, you know around the film
school era, and you know I waslike 19, didn't really know what
I exactly, what pathway Iwanted to take.
I knew I wanted to be in film,but I mean I didn't really stick
around in it for very long.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
Well, I feel like we both went left into I mean, you
were already doing music but weboth went into the music thing
for a bit.

Speaker 3 (09:43):
Yeah, yeah, we did, yeah, yeah, but there was
something strange about thattime, like I was really looking
outward for sort of approvalfrom other people, yeah, and I
mean it might have been drilledinto us by the sort of contact
that we had had with theindustry Telling a student that
their work doesn't count orisn't good enough.

(10:04):
It kind of destroys the entirelearning process because it's
subjective, Like who cares whatthe end product is Exactly.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
It's about what's your journey.
I'm learning something.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
I've got an idea.
I'm going to make it.
It might be good, it might bebad, but that's irrelevant,
because I'm learning somethingand I've got an experience
working with other crew andwriting something, and I'm I've
got an experience working withother crew and writing something
and directing something andshowing my work to an audience.
That whole process is is just alearning process and I don't I
can't really justify grading it.
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (10:36):
Because it's but it's also like like I hate the way a
lot of industry people, if youget them to like read something,
they approach it like a veryunfortunately, often very
egotistically and kind of like.
There's a little bit of likewell, I'm going to tell you what
to shoot, because I'm you know.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
But then a bit of posturing, but also like they
come from it like, okay, well,I'm going to tell you what's
good and bad about it, and it'slike if I ever read anyone's
thing or watch anyone's stuff,it's anyone's stuff.
Is like, just quickly before Ilook at it, what was your
intention?

Speaker 3 (11:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
And you sort of you don't talk about the art, you
talk about the artist, you know,and even the process and the
kind of development process it'slike talk to the artist and go
like what are you trying to dowith this?
Like what's the most importantthing that you say with this,
that you want to say with thisfilm?
Well, I think here are somecraft things.
I think here are some craftthings.
Here's maybe some ways you canstructure or whatever Things

(11:25):
that are like proven somewhatthat help with storytelling.
Otherwise, it's like, you know,do you feel like you've got
this thing out of it?
And this is the stuff that I dofor myself, I try to do.
I think that's like the biggestcrime in this kind of in
educating art is all right, makea thing, all right, we'll talk
about let's critique thepainting at the end of this and
we'll give it a B or an A.

(11:46):
Anyway, I just I feel stronglyabout it because I just I hate
any artists being put off at anearly stage.

Speaker 3 (11:56):
Yeah, I mean you're not just working with technical
filmmaking.
Yeah, you're working withpotential artists yeah, and
ideas and ideas because you knowyou're working with potential
artists yeah.
You know ideas and ideasbecause you know we're learning
production as well.
Yeah, and there's do's anddon'ts oh, for sure but then in
terms of directing and writingyeah and editing choices and,
and you know, just any sort offilmmaking creative choices.

(12:20):
You're nurturing an artistthere yeah, we do it.

Speaker 1 (12:23):
We do it in preschool , like we do it for babies and
children.
We don't constrict them withlike results driven sort of.
That's the thing you need tonurture this yeah, openness and
all right, just go play andwe'll see what happens.
Yeah, maybe go left, yep, maybepick?
Yep, great yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
Otherwise hands off, and especially at a younger age,
when we were at film school youknow straight out of high
school, kind of lost out in thebig world, yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:55):
I mean, that was the thing before they were
struggling to get people in forlike acting schools and stuff.
They would all.
They used to say people wouldtry to go in straight after
school.
They'd go no, no, no go travelfor a year and just do some shit
and kind of explore life a bit,yeah, and then come back and
now we'll pull it apart, but Iwould probably almost say the
same thing yeah, to do any art.
It's like go.

(13:16):
I mean it's easier said thandone, travel money and whatever,
but yeah, go have someexperiences.

Speaker 3 (13:25):
It's kind of interesting that you and I both
basically took about 10 yearsoff actually following through
In a public way.
Yeah, that's right.
I think we kind of we had thisdream a long time ago, both of
us.

Speaker 1 (13:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:37):
Well, a few artistic dreams, right.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (13:40):
And we both sort of had little moments of like going
for it, going for it ortiptoeing around certain things,
but also just living life andmaking mistakes and being very
separate from any sort ofartistic world at times as well.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
I'm speaking for myself there, no, no, no, I
agree, I'm with you, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (14:00):
But now it seems that we're both finally just going.
I'm going to ignore the noiseand just do the thing that.

Speaker 1 (14:06):
I want to do.
I think we both subconsciously,and then that blurred into a
bit of consciousness.
We both were like we're readynow.

Speaker 3 (14:15):
I think so, yeah, and I think we both did.
It might be a thing of gettingthrough your 20s.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, and I think, because I made a choice but I
didn't realise I made thatchoice until a bit later, to
like kind of spend the majorityof my twenties watching other
people succeed and fail andlearning that way and I think it
was a part of me that was likeI don't think I deserve a voice
yet in a in a way, even thoughthere was stuff I could tell.
but I was you know, I wasn't anexperience chaser, I was sort of

(14:42):
like a lot of my youth, a lotof my 20s.
I was watching other people dothat.
Like high school was prettytame for me.
A lot of stuff came a little bitlater and then it suddenly like
around funnily enough, likewhen I met you and that sort of
extended group was when I waslike, oh okay, I think I'm going
to play catch up for a bit, andI think that bled into my early

(15:09):
20s and I think the music scenewas almost a version of doing
that, because you're out atnight and you're playing, you're
meeting people and whatever,but I was always writing.
So I've never not been writing,I've been.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
so there's as far as like yeah, unmade things it's
endless.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
There is so much, there's such a massive.
So by the time I made greg theother a couple years ago yeah,
it was like on paper or publiclyit was my first.
It was my debut short yeah, Iwas like this is like my 30th to
me.
You're not saying it was perfect, but yeah, it was a very
conscious thing to sit and watchand but I also realized that
that was also me going.
My voice is ready and it's abit more refined.

(15:37):
That's why I kind of like Ionly sort of really did this
like greg that short, and nowI'm like straight to a feature.
I was like I'm oh, I'm ready,you know.

Speaker 3 (15:43):
When you say ready, I mean I know what you, I know, I
know you're saying like Notperfection, I'm not mixing up
with perfection.
Right.
So what is it Cause?
I also get the impression thatthere might be a sense of and I
think you mentioned this beforea sense of feeling like do I
have the right to express myselfor send a message to an
audience?
Do I?

(16:04):
Yeah, probably Do you know whatI mean, I think yeah, I think
there's a little bit like.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
I think the part of it that comes from the
insecurity, anxiety thing ofjust like, you know, just
feeling like I built that intomy brain that I don't have, like
I don't really deserve a voicein space that was so much of my
twenties was like me fightingfor air and I would do go to
such great length to I wouldsuffer some of the stuff I did
for other people that I just go,god.

(16:27):
I went so out of my way to dothat for that person just
seeking to be like, to berecognized.
You know, going back beforeabout where I'm at now, he's
like that stuff is so done now,which is so good, and the
standards I've set for myself.
Now I like I'm so happy, youknow that I've got there.
But so I think there was a lotof like oh, what can I say?
You know, yes.
Yeah.
And then what can I say?
Because I haven't feel like Ididn't do a lot, even though

(16:50):
once I thought about it I waslike, oh, I've done heaps, yeah.
And then the thing of like,well, who will care?

Speaker 3 (17:06):
And who will, like I, think creatively.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:08):
Thinking about an audience and thinking about who
would care.
Yeah, like.
So how do you get around that?
Because I have my view on that,but I'm curious about yours.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
I think I mean one way is you just get so used to
hearing like the wisdoms you getfrom other filmmakers who are
just like, just fucking like.
Let's do it like I just make ityes and that seems so like
nothing, but it's like therhythm of hearing that, like you
hear it regularly.
It's like you have to do itright, like I know, because
you're asking me this question.

(17:38):
What's your advice?
And I can tell that you careabout it.
I can identify that the thing,this thing in here, needs to do
it.

Speaker 3 (17:45):
Yeah, so that needs to override what other people
who you think you're doing it?

Speaker 1 (17:50):
for yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:52):
Because we're so focused on the audience, but
really you've got to do it foryou.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
Yeah, and then when people talk, you know you see
people respond to.
When filmmakers talk about like, oh, we don't really think
about who it's for, we make itfor us.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
And people go.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
Oh, it's so obnoxious .
Tarantino talks about it allthe time.
I make a film that I want tosee.
Yeah, yeah.
But again it's like they're notignorant to the fact that
they're making something for anaudience, but they go.
I like this film.
Yeah, I'm a human being.
Yeah, like I'm alone.
So if I like something, there'sa pretty good chance that some

(18:26):
other people will like it, andthat's a beautiful thing to
realise, it's very liberatingfor yourself.
And then, like I guess theawareness that comes from that
is going is recognising maybehow many people might like that
thing.
And then you go, and that's howyou, I think, manoeuvre in the
business.

Speaker 3 (18:41):
Well, the audience will find you.
Yeah, even if it takes a whileor even if it's a couple of
people.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:49):
But I think the people who, like you know, like
musicians who do like superniche things, the point of kind
of, I think what would beconsidered success is not how
good it does or whatever it'sthem becoming aware of exactly,
or more or less, how many peoplecare about that thing and
accepting that and loving thatand going.
I make this really fuckingcrazy.
Weird jazz, metalcore, likefusion dance music.

(19:12):
Yeah, I'm aware enough to knowthat that's not going to be
played on like triple J.
Yeah, but then I play thisbasement to like five, 10, 20
people and they love it and I'mhappy with that.
Yeah, that is the success.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
So I think it's like so tough to get there internally
.

Speaker 3 (19:30):
Yeah, but then you get there Because you have so
many pressures to succeed.

Speaker 1 (19:35):
Well, that's all that also.
Yeah, like all the messagingfrom the industry of, like the
competitive funding thing, yeah,Because, again, of course, if
you're going to make peoplecompete for funding,
subconsciously or consciously,you're going to probably make
choices that you think they willapprove of, which is not how
art should ever be created.
The business side of a thing,the business side of just having
entertainment I'm sure there'speople sick of just me saying

(19:55):
like referring to thisexclusively as art.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
That's how you get 20 Marvel films, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (20:00):
But it's like you know, I watch them and don't
mind some of them, but like, andthere's a place for those
things obviously.
Entertainment Mindless is nevergoing to poo-poo that stuff.
But when that's the mainmessage, you get from the main
funding bodies, that kind ofcompetitive funding mindset.
And then you're talking to someyoung filmmakers and again I do

(20:21):
not blame them for a second,but it's like they're all
talking about but where's yourfunding?
You know, yeah, it's like theconsistency of that message,
that's what is consideredsuccess to them.
It's like, oh, you got thismuch money from these people.
Yeah, you know, like greg, likeso I was so proud of like making
.
Greg got into adelaide filmfestival and it was the only
film that didn't have any likesupport you know, and I was so

(20:41):
proud of thatand I thought that might mean
something more and it kind ofdidn't like.
A few people got it.
What do you mean?
Oh, it was.
I was really hoping that,because I still have that
prescribed to that idea.
It's the like, the ways thatlike, oh you, you made this
thing for not a lot of money.
Look how good it is for howlittle you had.
That's really great.
Or we'll give you a little bitmore and look, let's see you
expand on that, that sort ofidea.

(21:02):
Like two festivals.
They were saying basically like, well, because they don't have
funding is why we didn't acceptit.
Because they sort of see islike, if you're funded, if
you're supported, then you'reconnected to this thing.
And it's like if you get somefunding from adelaide film
festival, we can see, oh, you'reconnected to that film festival
.
And obviously, because so manyfestivals now it's very
business-minded.
So it's like, well, we can'tsee how you're going to bring
attention to us.

(21:22):
But it's like that messaging.
Again, I'm glad that I'mstubborn in the way that I am.
By going, you know that maybeyou want to do it more.
Again, that's me being stubborn, but as again it's like people
who maybe don't have that sametenacity, sort of inbuilt
tenacity that I have, I was likeno wonder you know a lot of
them would have, after they gotreceived, what I received would

(21:51):
have gone all right well I guess, seemingly the only way to get
approved or, you know, grantedpermission to exist in this
industry is like, well, I guessI have to get money and then
they don't, maybe, and then theyfeel like they're nothing.
Yeah, you know, I get so likeaffected by the idea of people
with great ideas existing andnot being approved because of
the boxes they don't tick forother people.
Yeah, yeah, like, really,genuinely fucking, like really
kills me.

Speaker 3 (22:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
That people who are looking at purely at the numbers
are the ones that approve.
And this is not a new, you knowstatement that I'm not
revelatory thing I'm making, butso I'm I'm glad, I'm very happy
that I'm where I'm at with thatin that sort of stubborn way,
and glad I'm very happy that I'mwhere I'm at with that in that
sort of stubborn way.
And then this, like this nextfeature that I'm about to shoot,
is again self-funded and I waslike I'm going to establish my
voice, I'm going to, you know,kick the door down.
Yeah, and I think that wasbefore I realized was a bit of

(22:33):
what I was doing for all thoseyears was a bit like I'm not
going to ask for permission.
You know, yeah, I'll take mytime, I'll grow as a person,
I'll have all these experiences,try and watch other people kind
of learn from that, and thenI'm going to, in my own way, do
it when I'm ready.
And so I think that idea ofearning the voice sort of thing
has evolved.

Speaker 3 (22:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
And then, like I said , I'm happy where it sits now.

Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yeah, and especially when, in so many of the avenues
that we are taking here, thereare no official kind of hurdles
that you need to take across tobe called an artist, you know.
And so when you're lost in thatworld as a young artist that
doesn't really know how it works, hasn't really made anything
yet, but you know, you want to,or you've got something in you

(23:21):
that's this desire to create.
So before you've made anythingand you can't prove to the world
that you are an artist, youseek validation from people that
you feel are higher up than you.
And then what happens is theysort of inherently just kind of
shut you down?

Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah, because they're kind of gatekeeping in their
own way, because you've gotnothing to prove, but they're
kind of holding on to a spotthemselves Cause you've got
nothing to prove, but they'rekind of holding onto a spot
themselves.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
Exactly, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:47):
And so I know what you mean.
Yes, there are.
I mean it's a business and,like, filmmaking is a business,
but at the same time, I thinkit's so important to hold onto
the idea that you are also justan artist and a human and you
should, if you've got somethingto create, just go and create it

(24:07):
and forget the rules and forgetthe process and the you know
the pathway that's going toappease the business, because
it's not like.

Speaker 1 (24:18):
there's data that backs that up, the amount of
things that have succeeded fromsomeone's crazy ideas.
But I think what art to me is isthe thing in between.
Everything backs that up, theamount of things that have
succeeded from someone's crazyideas, but I think what art to
me is is the thing in betweeneverything.
So it's like the art is there'sthe artist, there's the thing
they create, and then theaudience.
Though if you want to justlimit it to like that little
kind of bermuda triangle of yeah, you're starting conversation,

(24:39):
so like I've shared a thingabout me, you've accepted it,
taken it in, relating it towhatever's going on with you,
and then you've connected withme.
Even if we don't ever talk,there's a connection here.
So I was like that's for me isthe art.
Again, it's the thing inbetween, the beautiful kind of
thing we can't touch the air inbetween.
And the reason I think about itlike that again is to remind

(25:04):
myself of all the stuff that Iput into the film and all the
stuff that's received and thenfelt you know, yeah, and then we
only look at the product or weonly look at, well, how does the
audience receive it?
You know.

Speaker 3 (25:19):
Yeah, and we only think about it in business terms
or something.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
Yeah, the business thing cuts all that art, all
that conversation out of it.
It just looks at the polls, youknow.
Yeah, yeah, it's a weirdconcept to talk about because,
particularly in this country andI think, going back to what
you're saying about being anartist and looking for approvals
this country has a majorproblem with recognising what
artists do.
Yeah, yeah, it's not the sameoverseas and I so hoped that,
you know, covid was going tochange that and everyone would

(25:44):
sit in their living rooms andthen going.
We are kept alive in a lot ofways by the art that's been put
out there.
I mean, it's the way that Ikind of view in a lot of
respects, kind of Western, a lotof mainstream Western
philosophy around art,filmmaking, where it's like they
make films to make money andthey hope they're good.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:06):
And then I think a lot of stuff particularly in
places in Europe and stuff wherethey get what the process is.
They're trying to make goodstuff and hopefully it makes
some money.
And I think that's actually arisk worth taking.

Speaker 3 (26:19):
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's really funny.
It's so interesting that like,are they really flogging that
dead horse about superhero films?
And then Anora wins the OscarRight.
And then Sinners smashes Allthese years where they're saying
oh, no one cares about horror.

Speaker 1 (26:38):
There's no market for it and it's like well, stranger
Things is the biggest show onTV and Walking Dead and stuff
and then, you just waited acouple more years and now that's
like everywhere.
And now every like celebrity istrying to make a horror film
now, because it's the.
Thing because they've finallyaccepted that people.
That's what people want.

Speaker 3 (26:53):
But then that will go out of fashion.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
Oh, exactly, because it gets exploited and it won't
be an original thing anymore.

Speaker 3 (26:59):
No, eventually it will again.
Yeah, but you know superherofilms, you know worked for a bit
.
And they're like that's whatwe're making.
And then I see articles thatare like Hollywood deciding that
independent original ideasmight actually have a place in
this industry.

Speaker 1 (27:17):
That's what we grew up on.
That Sean Baker win was likehim winning that.
It just destroyed me in thekind of this great way where I
was like I was really sad andsort of almost depressed in a
weird way, but not from like abad thing, it was like almost,
like it was such a confrontingrealisation that, oh fuck, maybe

(27:37):
there is an opportunity for me,that there's someone that
doesn't want to ever make Marvelfilms or anything you know, and
stuff Again, not to shit onthem, but like oh man, there's.
And obviously his speech waslike killed me.
It was just this beautiful, youknow, acknowledgement of
independent theatre, ofindependent film, and that has
sat with me, you know, eversince.

(27:57):
And it's crazy that it's likeit took.
Yeah, it felt like it took solong because I felt like the
industry was like he's alwaysbuilt on those people, because
you know all the filmmakersstart somewhere, you know, and
suddenly then we're like seeingall these like foreign
filmmakers quote unquote,foreign filmmakers blowing up
and Parasite, winning, you knowthe other year and it's like wow

(28:18):
, I think they're finallystarting to get it and it's like
it's proven.
And then even just to it's like,it's proven, it's like again.
And then just even just to lookat Australia, it's like how we
keep forgetting that our besttime, our best time in our
industry, was when we had, youknow, the break of our ants and
you know Gallipolis picking ahang of rock, whatever stuff
that was doing well in generalyeah.

(28:38):
Underneath it.
We had, you know, obviously youknow the Mad Maxes and Turkey
shoots All these like.
I mean, you can have any opinionabout it, but that was our most
successful time People still inAmerica talk about obviously
you know Tarantino talks aboutthat not quite Hollywood
documentary is so good becauseit's acknowledging that this was
actually a really strong timefor us.

(28:59):
It wasn't just this weird kindof thing that you have to kind
of unearth.
It was a really strong time.
How do we keep forgetting aboutthat?
Yeah, and something happened inthe 90s, I don't know what
happened.
We stopped kind of making likehorror films, particularly.
You see around like 93, 94, itsort of starts to die off and I
don't know where we, I don'tknow what.
And then it just never, hasnever seemed to come back with
these exceptions of people, allthese strong voices like the

(29:21):
Philippi Brothers doing, youknow.

Speaker 3 (29:23):
Well, I think we can kind of go full circle to what
we were, how we started thisconversation, which is people
start to chase what they thinkwill make money.
Yeah, and that seems to be thedownfall.

Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (29:38):
And every time an independent artist actually
slips through the cracks andgets into a cinema, yeah, the
world goes yeah, that's what wewant Exactly, but the world gets
it.
But imagine if the Philippibrothers were shut down, which
they were by so many people yeah.
Until they were finally pickedup.
Yeah, but it was like numbersthat weren't.

(29:58):
They weren't defiant and theyjust.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
But it was numbers.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
It was so frustrating because it took recognition
outside of our country.
The same thing with theBabadook.
I remember when it first gotlaunched and it was like nothing
here, it was so dead.
And then it goes to America,gets two of the best I talk
about this all the time atNauseam Two of the best quotes a
horror film could ever get.
You get something from WilliamFrege and the director of the

(30:24):
Exorcist and Stephen King.
And then suddenly it's like ohWell, that's it.
Oh, okay, now we.

Speaker 3 (30:30):
That happens in Australian music too.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
Oh, no, exactly, Absolutely.
Look at.

Speaker 3 (30:35):
Amel and the Sniffers and you know yeah absolutely.
It's the tall poppy syndromethat we have here which is which
is?
I think it's probably what heldus back for 10 years, and
that's probably what we weretrying to fight through in our
heads is like we don't deserveto express ourselves, you know.

Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah, because we're not meeting the standards of.

Speaker 3 (30:56):
We don't deserve to just make anything yeah.
Because we're asking forpermission before we have learnt
the skills.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
Yeah, dude, there you go.
That's a really good.
You know asking permissionbefore you even know what you're
asking for Exactly.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
And people are just going.
Well, you're no one.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
He's like yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
I know I'm no one.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
I would like to get good at something so I can be
someone I know, I know you know,no, there's a part of me that
is really excited for what'scoming up, because I feel like
there's been enough of not beingallowed and then seeing these
people break through, like thefact that last I think it was
last year at Film Festival therewas two feature screens like
low, no budget feature screenthat were only an hour long

(31:36):
which is like the death knellfor festivals?
Yeah, like, no one, you do notdo that.
And they had two back-to-backin this little screening, the
Movie Juice guys were amazingand I was like, oh, amazing,
yeah, amazing, more of this.
Yeah, yeah, like, and itbridges, I think, totally
bridges to actors In this ideaof I think.

(31:57):
For a long time it felt likeactors had to be so malleable
and open and neutral and sort ofvanilla, and it's like the best
thing you can bring is yourself.
Yeah, you know yeah dude, yeah,and then having people in the
industry that can do you know,can sort of encourage that for
actors.

Speaker 3 (32:15):
Yeah, yeah, I think I felt for a long time that I was
like maybe people pleasing andtrying to fit a certain version
of myself to, to participate inthis world, and definitely
rejecting my own voice, you know, allowing myself to actually
have a say in this world or justmeeting people and being like.

(32:37):
This is just who I am, this is,you know.
I know where I'm at in the, inthe, in the industry, but I'm
not going to try to be whateverit is I think you want me to be
and I think there's this kind ofnaivety that you have in your
20s when you're walking aroundjust being like please, please,
please please just give me ashot or give me some validation
or let me in, you know yeah.

(32:59):
And so you're very much justlike yeah, yeah, okay, yeah,
whatever, you want, whatever,and then you end up just doing.
You're sort of exploitingyourself and doing all these
favours for people, which youdefinitely learn things from.
Yeah, I was going to say youknow it's not wasted time, you
know, and it's not like youdeserved a salary.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
You know no exactly.

Speaker 3 (33:19):
But I mean, pay your artist if you can, but um, but
no one can hear.
You know, that's understandable, but just really putting
yourself last and not givingyourself any sort of backing as
an artist.
And I think I think you kind ofhit this point eventually,
hopefully, in your life, whereyou say, all right, that's
enough, like I care about thepeople around me, I'm not going

(33:39):
to, I'm not going to tread onanyone's toes here, but I now I
have a voice and I'm and I'm.
I'm not going to tread onanyone's toes here, but now I
have a voice.
Yeah, and I'm not here to hurtanyone, but I want to.
I'm going to have this is mylittle lane to say what I want
to say.
Yeah, you know, not to hurtanyone else but, just now.
I just want to.
It's my turn to get my littlemessage out for anyone that's

(34:00):
interested.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah, and that makes you then that makes you good for
you know, I think you've talkeda bit about with auditioning
and different things, but it'slike remembering that, no, an
actor shouldn't, can't butshouldn't fill any role.
Yeah, yeah, and that it's likeI'm looking for a thing and
there's obviously a part of methat will obviously let
something in from the person,but it's that sort of that

(34:20):
marriage of someone beingthemselves within the role,
because it's sort of like, ifyou're just bringing it to life
with none of you, it's just likeFrankenstein's monster.

Speaker 2 (34:32):
There's no, it's dead behind the eyes.

Speaker 1 (34:34):
Yes, yeah, yeah, like , animate the character with you
and then that marriage of those, that's what the
decision-making should be.
Is it that part of you doesthat marry well with the
character?
Yeah, you know, and it's likeit's hard because you want, you
don't, don't like rejection andyou want to get work and you
want and that's the thing againof how little, how few spots

(34:55):
there are to fill in the waythat we in australia it's such a
problem of of, yeah, castingpeople, because it's just like,
well, we know the person, itit's easy, it's, you know, it's
major theatre companies thatjust kind of go, well, we'll
just retrofit you intoeverything you know, because
you're here and it's establishedand people know you.
And we do this with actors,australian actors, and it's like
you look back at all thosefilms that were shot here, like

(35:17):
Hollywood sort of studio films,but particularly that hotspot of
shooting in the sort of late90s, early 2000s, um, you know,
matrix, uh, mission possible toall these things so much.
Um, it's like so often thesupporting character is the same
fucking actors it's, and it'slike, because they're just as
strange, like, oh, you know,here have have the one that you
know, here's our like best, youknow, and and yeah, and that's

(35:40):
just become so ingrained and andand like it's crazy that one of
the best ways to get cast inthis country sort of being you
is on like soap operas yeah yeah, yeah, um, but in film and you
know, and it's like so I thinkthere is a again.
This is my point of I don'tblame anyone for suffering this

(36:01):
way and and feeling like theyhave to malform and become this
kind of, you know, blob, neutralblob, to do these things,
because it's like, well, I needthe work because there's not
enough work going around and I'mvulnerable because you know I
don't like rejection and that'sfair enough, yeah, but then like
, yeah, the industry's sort ofnot showing you that unique

(36:22):
people get the right peoplearen't always cast for the thing
that fits them best.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
And when you say unique people, which everyone is
yeah, exactly.
I think that's an importantpoint to make we're talking
about.
Everyone has something that'sunique about them, so don't
forget your voice, don't throwit away.
Bring that.
Bring that to your brand andyour true character.

Speaker 1 (36:48):
And long term.
I do believe, despiteeverything I said, you do that
enough.
I do genuinely believe thatdoes get recognised.

Speaker 3 (36:56):
I think so.

Speaker 1 (36:57):
Whether it all gets recognised in this country or
not is a different story, but Ithink in the world as a whole it
absolutely gets recognised.
I think that is always going tobe a better option for you and
it's better for your soul.

Speaker 3 (37:08):
Yeah, that's right, because, look, you're just not
going to enjoy the process ifyou have forgotten.

Speaker 2 (37:14):
You're not being you.
You're not being yourself.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:17):
And I think, yeah, through that whole period when I
think we were discovering thatas individuals, as artists and
as people trying to figure outwho other people want us to be,
so that we can be part of theirfilm or be an actor or get the
role or whatever and I've talkedabout this before walking into
an audition and saying what doyou want from me as a beginner

(37:41):
actor?
You know, as a beginner actor.
And then, thank goodness, I hadthat moment when I booked a
Crazy K, right yeah, yeah.
And I was so dejected by therejection, right yeah, and I hit
fuck it.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:58):
You know, and not in an angry way.
Just like I don't want thisanymore Such a great way.
I just want to go and have abit of fun now.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
And.

Speaker 3 (38:08):
I've got an opportunity to play a character.
That's a bit of a laugh.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
You know it's comedy.
I was so impressed when allthat happened.
Thanks, man.
It was so fun.
And then obviously that you'velike an energy you've carried
since, but like that inparticular, I remember just the
way that, yeah, like you werelike I'm going to show you why
I'm right for this.

Speaker 3 (38:29):
Yeah, but I didn't realise that at the time.

Speaker 1 (38:31):
No, I don't know, but the way, but it was like it
wasn't, my point being that itwasn't like I'm going to prove
to you that I can do the thingyou're asking me to do.
It's like you've given thisidea of a thing.
I'm telling you.
I'm going to show you why thisis.
I'm the right person to youknow.
Yeah, bring it to life.
And by being you like, yeah,and bringing you out, yeah, yeah

(38:51):
, yeah.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
It's like oh, yeah, yeah, a version of me.
Yeah, in a parallel universe.
You're not still a rapper, it'sin my, but it's the same thing.
I definitely based my characteron certain people that I'm
related to.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
But even like the same thing.
When you showed me that initialvideo, that like test video
thing you did for the Robbiefilm as Liam because that's
particularly when you're playinglike a real person it's like,
well, how do I, you know thatclassic thing?
Or how do I be like them somuch that you know it's not?
Well, how do I, you know thatclassic thing?
Or how do I be like them somuch you know it's not me
anymore, it's not being lit, youknow.
And the way that it was like Iwatched that video, so proud

(39:29):
because of how hard you workedfor it but knew that that was
coming from you, that was you asa fan and understanding and
appreciate it but as a performer, that was you doing.
You doing like which is likethat's yeah, that's, that's the
Like, that's what you want, andthanks, and I love that.
Yeah, that's something you've,that's you've been able to stick

(39:51):
with and Thanks, man.

Speaker 3 (39:53):
Yeah, I mean I just I'm just glad that I I had that
epiphany and that theopportunities came up and and
all the circumstances just kindof aligned eventually, that I
did get to a point where I waslike so I'd kind of given up on
trying so hard, and that's whatset me free to come to that

(40:15):
realisation that, oh, I justneed to let go of that and just
trust in myself and bring myversion of this to the room.
You know, and even when I'm inan audition, I'm bringing my own
brand, which is the genuine meright, which is much different

(40:37):
to the approach that I wastaking before that which was hi,
hi.
What do you need?
You know, yeah.
But coming in and just beinglike all right, let's play,
let's see what happens.

Speaker 2 (40:47):
I mean it's like your audition Take it or leave it.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (40:51):
No, I think yeah again.
It's just like we can talk allabout how that applies to being
a better actor and being, youknow, making a better character,
but it's like learning comingfrom where I'm coming Again.
The much more important endgoal is that it's your soul, is,
you know, looked after.

Speaker 3 (41:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:09):
Yes, Because you live with that more than any
character you know that youembody Absolutely.
And again, this is like that'sbeen the big thing that I
transitioned.
You know, transitioned throughthis sort of end of last year.
This year was like I realised Icould quite lighten days see, I
was existing as a sort of aboxed in form of myself in every
place that I went to and I letthat happen yeah, and again part

(41:32):
of that was insecurities andanxieties and different things.
And then also was yeah, like um,not not knowing how good it is
having never been there, notknowing how good it is to be me
in at every environment, inevery theoretical room that I
walk into.

Speaker 3 (41:49):
And it's not arrogant .
No, and I think that's the fear.
I think people fear that ifthey actually develop a voice,
that they're coming across asarrogant.
Yeah, you're still curiousabout other people's.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
You know opinions and lives and yeah, that is a
really really, really, really,really hard hill to climb over.
But yeah, boy, when you getthere, yeah, my god it's part of
why I started this as well isbecause I was, you know, I was
kind of getting somewhere as anactor, um, you know, through
social.

Speaker 3 (42:23):
But what I've found, and what I find is a lot of
people post a lot of photos andthey develop, you know, they
show a sort of image of theirlife or how they want to be
perceived as a working actor,which is very important for your
branding right.

(42:43):
But I think the next step isconnecting to people by actually
showing them who you are withyour voice.
And you know I didn't postanything.
You know it was all pictures,right?
And I was like what the hellwould I post?
You know what kind of reelswould I post?
You know, just like mepretending to be, you know, a

(43:05):
day in the life of a workingactor, which is mainly me, just
waiting for an email andwatching movies, you know, and
cleaning houses, you know.
That's the reality yeah, youknow, I could keep.
We could keep lying about how,how successful we are as actors.
Yeah to, to try to prove tosomeone that we are, but that's

(43:25):
not connecting Exactly.
And so my realisation was youknow the few moments that I have
to actually act in something.
I'll start talking about that.
Yeah, and talk about whatdidn't work.

Speaker 1 (43:39):
Exactly the vulnerability, because otherwise
that's the big threat of socialmedia and I think we're all
kind of tapping into it,starting to tap into
understanding it now.
It's shifted us from one biggroup of people on this earth to
a collection of individuals.

Speaker 2 (43:55):
Yeah, yes.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
And it's like we're just projecting us.

Speaker 3 (43:58):
That's a wall, that's a barrier, that's a painting on
a wall, that's you know, yeah,then you're not really getting
to know an artist at all.

Speaker 1 (44:09):
No exactly.
You're only looking at someproduct, yeah and like you're
saying you're tapping into,you're saying it's like it's an
ulterior motive of trying to.
You know again, look foracceptance or approval or
healing stuff and it's like no,that doesn't you know and we
know that it only damages people.
We only know.
We know that when someonepeople only post like the good

(44:31):
stuff and all the other peoplesee that and then they judge
themselves against that, we knowthat that doesn't.
It's not helping us.
Yeah yeah, and so if I think ifanyone should be not doing that,
it's artists.
If there's anyone thatshouldn't, just be posting when
things are going great and allthe success and all the staff is

(44:51):
artists, because we're ourbusiness is vulnerability, yes,
yeah, and emotions and feelingsor whatever.
Yeah and um, and I'm trying todo this thing.
I was doing a little bit withthe film last year.
I was trying to do this thingwhere I was doing these kind of
bloggy video.
Yeah, yeah, yeah it was morethan I.
I was like, as you know, I'm abit resent, resistant to social
media posting itself.
But who isn't?
Well, yeah, exactly, but um,and I don't I do do so like

(45:12):
believe that it doesn't have tobe for everyone or you find your
way.
Sure, you find your own way,yeah, to exist with it, but yeah
but I was, so I was more thatit did.
It stopped or it dropped offbecause it was more because of
that, but while I was doing it,it it was.
You know, it was just likeshowing the process.
And then it was reallyinteresting because I would get
a very mixed response, like fromsome people who would project
onto me and go and it's tryingto answer the thing that I'm

(45:34):
solving.
Yeah, yeah, I was like no, I'mactually.
I'm feeding you, evon, really,because I want it back.
Yes, Because, that's some peopledid, which is amazing, and I'm
going to try, and I'mcontemplating doing it for this
one, just to like.
Even if nothing that I say isuseful, just the act of showing

(45:55):
the vulnerability.
It's like I don't know.
I believe in that.

Speaker 3 (45:59):
I think it's great man, I think.

Speaker 1 (46:01):
But I would love, I would follow, like all these
actors that I do, and I see themwhen they get the roles and
that's great, I'm happy for them, but I'm like.
Personally, I'm like I'd loveto see them talk about like
something they didn't get and,within you, know what they're
allowed to talk about yeah andthen kind of exploring why they
yeah, they felt didn't quiteconnect or yeah, yeah how
they're feeling about it andwhatever like that's.

(46:21):
I would cast people based onthat shit because I'm like oh
cool, I'm seeing the human being.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
Yeah, and also like those moments where they didn't
get a role.
There's so many factors aroundwhy they might not have got that
role.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
It's got nothing to do with them most of the time.
Nothing to do with the factthat it might have been bad work
.

Speaker 3 (46:36):
It probably was really good work.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
Yeah, and yeah, you hear, that all the time and it
has happened since the dawn offilm, like my, you know like
people not getting roles forjust totally inconsequential or,
like you know, arbitrary, youknow conditional, other things
and stuff that you know.

Speaker 3 (46:55):
Yeah, I don't know, it is really.
I think it's important to sharethose stories because it's kind
of validating.
You know, you never know howclose you were.
You know, and it's okay.
I don't know, what am I tryingto say?
I don't know.
I mean, it's kind of dead, butyou're not a failure.
Yeah, and that's relatable,that's more relatable than
success.

Speaker 1 (47:15):
Success isn't very relatable.
No, it's desirable but it's notvery relatable.
Like even just that littlemoment where you didn't know
what to say.
People like you might feel theneed to cut that, and you may,
but like I guarantee you 95% ofthe people, even if they don't
quite realise it, that's thething that will actually connect
them to you, more than theclean, perfect, you know and

(47:38):
stuff.
And that's what I've learntthrough, like you know, learning
about my mental health stuffand notably the anxiety, is like
, oh, talking about it makes mefeel better, but then it seems
to make other people feel betterand that's really lovely
because it's like, because if Ijust hide that my soul's kind of
crashed, but then it's also I'mnot.

(48:01):
what am I doing for the worldthat way, If everything's, if
I'm just?

Speaker 3 (48:02):
projecting, perfection, yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
Social media is just making us like, taking us
further and further away fromthe tribe that should remain.
You know that we don't lookafter it.
You know that the fact that youknow the tribe mentality use
that word sort of tribe, to meanyou know a collection of people
that are helping each otherthat you know if this person's

(48:25):
not good at that thing, theother person who is can sort of
step up and support that, andthen it's like who people are is
so important to the success ofit, so we know we can identify
what everyone's strengths are,and then other people pick up
that slack and then vice versa,you know, and that kind of stuff
, and we're just like socialmedia is taking us so far away

(48:47):
from that to be, like I said,just a collection of individuals
.
Yeah, like that does absolutelynothing other than just be like
a blip of dopamine, and then arepressed feeling of, you know,
insufficiency that impactscertain people more than others.

Speaker 3 (49:06):
Yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
It's like I love when people refer to social media as
like a drug, because it's likea recognition of the addiction,
which is something I've sort offinally I put that out recently
sort of acknowledging.
I'm like, oh, I'm actuallyreally.
And I was just a video, talkingto someone about it who it was
kind of quizzing the otherperson of like what, Okay, Do
you think when you wake up inthe morning, you know what?
Do you pick up your phone.

Speaker 3 (49:26):
Is that the first thing?

Speaker 1 (49:27):
And the guy who's like he's married and he's like
and the other guy was like doyou look at it before you say hi
, say good morning to your wife,yeah.
And he's like oh well, if Iclock that, I'll be making so
much more effort to distancemyself from it.

Speaker 3 (49:44):
What is it that you think you get out of it?

Speaker 2 (49:46):
Get out of what.

Speaker 3 (49:47):
Social media Like watching it.

Speaker 1 (49:49):
Well, that's what I mean.
I think it's this thing of like.
I think people have been taught, and again, no fault of their
own.

Speaker 3 (49:56):
I don't blame people for being sucked into this thing
.
No, of course not.
We're all addicted to it.
Yeah, so Of course not, we'reall addicted to it.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
Yeah, so it's again if we're all addicted, it's not
our fault, it's in our control.
We need to take back thecontrol, but like, and it's up
to us to sort of change it.
But it's again.
It's this like the littledopamine hit of like new,
because I think we all recognizethat new things and a color
that we might not have seenbefore is like.
all that stuff is like you know,in the moment is a nice little

(50:21):
thing.
There's, I think, a false senseof seeing other people's lives,
like a false sense ofrelatability, like a surface
kind of like oh, that person'sgot a dog that makes the funny
noise, well, so does mine.
And then I think there is thissort of thing of like well, if
that person has this perfectlife, maybe I can.
But again, it's such a surfacelike thing that you take in.

(50:42):
It's like the iceberg at thetop, above the water, but
underneath the water the rest ofthe iceberg is is it's, it's
actually going well, my life'snothing if it's because I can't
do that thing.
That seems so effortless and soeasy and achievable by it and
tangible to this person, yeah,that I'm like.
Well, I can't.
I don't look that good when Itake that photo in front of that
wall at the winery.

Speaker 3 (51:02):
Well.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
I'm nothing.
All that stuff underneath isthe stuff that's, you know,
killing us, but that surfacestuff just is just enough to
kind of keep it active and,again, just to keep it on track.
A bit like on theme a bit, it'slike none of that helps us as
people.
I think there's some beautifulthings about social media people
you can keep in contact withand stuff but, like you know,

(51:24):
this thing is sort of indirectlyin some cases very directly
teaching us that whatever we'redoing, no matter what, is not
good enough.
Yeah, and the overwhelmingmessage of insufficiency and not
enoughness.
It's like, yeah, that's notgoing to breed anything
beautiful.
No, I don't know.

(51:44):
I think something with actorsis.
I think there is something very.
There is a wonderful way thatyou can use it as a business
tool yeah, but it doesn't haveto be sheen, that you can be
vulnerable and then keep it at adistance, yeah, and know that
that's what it's there for.

Speaker 3 (52:01):
And then, I don't know, this is a bit of a messy
point.
Well, I think I made a choiceto make my social media
active-based and not share toomuch of my personal life,
because I think that was justpretty fake.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
But it's not all, shane, though I think.
That's why I think you've got agood example.
I think you've got a good thingwhere.
I feel like no, seriously, Ifeel like I still feels like I'm
looking at a human being, yeah,and like sure I know you, so I
can pick up on things thatothers might not but it doesn't
feel like it's all gloss.
Like it does feel like, yeah,it's the, the individual is

(52:42):
present, and and it's not allprojecting glossy veneer Like
you know it's, it's.

Speaker 3 (52:53):
It would be extremely hard for me to keep up glossy
veneer.
It's just not me.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
I don't put beet or beet all in my beard every day.
You know, I can't do this everyday, yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:06):
I think I used to post a lot more.
You know, look at the coolthings I'm doing.

Speaker 1 (53:12):
And it's used like I'm not saying there's an
absence of that either, liketell people when you do.
Well, hey man, if I go onholiday, I'm like look, I did a
little holiday, that feels good,because if you marry it, I
think, with the vulnerabilityit's, then it just becomes like
I see, you know, see that and go, oh, I'm happy for you.
You know, I'm not kind ofcomparing, because I remember
the human being, because youpresent that as well, but I

(53:33):
think with art or withfilmmaking or with like um, and
that's what I'm trying tobalance like with like the cats
or death films page, againworking through my resistance to
social media posting and stuffand that kind of shit, but it's
going all right.
Well, I'll tell you, when thefilm does well, because that's
nice and it's a nice thing and,yes, it does have a little bit
of like, people, you see, justbump into people who are kind of

(53:53):
like, oh, it seems like it'sdoing well, then there's a
little bit of worth there.
In that, for sure, people feellike you're doing the right
thing.
That's like, that makessomething.
Yeah, that means something.
But I try to marry it with like.
Again, this thing's kind of notworking and I don't know if I'm
succeeding in it.
I mean, I don't post a lotanyway, but I'm really conscious
of it.
I'm trying to do more of that.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
Yeah, but I think what makes you beautiful as a
human and interesting as anartist is your vulnerability
Sure.
Beautiful as a human andinteresting as an artist is your
vulnerability Sure.
Do you know what?
I mean and I think that'ssomething that you lean on and I
think it's perfect.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
Sure, so yeah, and your beard is good.
Copy and paste.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
Everyone out there.

Speaker 1 (54:37):
Thank you, that was really lovely and I do.
It does feel like a strength,like it was a thing where I was
like I have to be to survive.
For me personally, I have to beon or just the first way for me
to get through things.

Speaker 3 (54:48):
It's who you've always been, though I think the
brand is is like I said it'sit's the real you yeah, it's
vulnerability is truth, you know.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
In that sense, I hope that's what my films kind of
become, whatever genre, whatever, it's not a sheen or a
projection of yeah, gloss it's.
There's a vulnerability like,no matter what, even if it's
some weird horror comedy,schlocky fucking thing, there's
like there's a hopefully afeeling of vulnerability to it.
Yeah, because if it's not there, then it's.
Yeah, it's not me, yeah, umyeah, so where?

Speaker 3 (55:15):
so your film, greg, which is so good, um, and
something I was like so proud tosee you do, because, as we've
talked about through this chat,it felt like there was so much
waiting for both of us toactually do the thing Not that
we weren't trying things, butyou made this thing finally, and

(55:36):
I remember like catching upwith you around that time when
you were writing and you werejust hard out writing these
things, and then you justfinally went and did it and you
got the crew together and youmade this really beautiful short
film on no budget and peoplecame together for it.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
Well, it was interesting.
It was like a period of timeCause I, like I said, I've
always been writing and it wasthrough some of some friends
that we have this kind of filmgroup with, um, you know, them
all being filmmakers and activefilmmakers, yeah.
So it was like, I think thestuff of kind of like, okay, I'm
ready to do it now, it was alittle bit like, oh, competitive

(56:13):
spirit maybe injected into it,which was great of like, oh well
, yeah, but then the pressureI'd put on myself was the first
thing that I do has to bebecause it's been, you know,
it's been a while and everyoneI've been telling people for 10
fucking plus years, I'm afilmmaker.

Speaker 3 (56:27):
Yeah, you've got to put pressure on yourself to blow
them away with something.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
It's been a talk for so long,exactly.

Speaker 1 (56:34):
And I'm doing all the failing because they're not
seeing that I've been doing allthe failing and succeeding and
whatever like in the backgroundon my computer, you know.
Anyway, so I had a bunch ofscripts and then I so one of my
like key people in my life, butspecifically as a filmmaker, is
a guy called Shane McNeill thatI met at film school and was

(56:55):
kind of like between him andmaybe, like Ashley, were the
only people that seemed to kindof go oh, there's something here
that saw the artist.

Speaker 3 (57:01):
You know or looked at the artist.

Speaker 1 (57:02):
I was in this kind of slump, covid time, like I was
again.
I was writing and I wrote, youknow, most of the feature script
, one that I haven't made yet.
So it was always still thethings were happening behind the
scenes.
But, yeah, there's pressure toall right, I've got to pick the
right thing.
And then I saw like I had, andthen I happened to start
developing more like shorts, andthen I was working it during

(57:24):
the fringe and then bumped intoShane and I was like holy shit,
and I could immediately, like Iwas aware enough to go like, oh,
this needed to happen.
I just felt in my bones, I waslike, oh shit, yeah, I
desperately needed to see himagain Reconnected.
And he's telling me, oh so whathave you got?
What are you doing?
You know, I've got these thingsand stuff and I was talking
through these different ideasand, um, one of them was greg

(57:48):
that I wrote.
It just was birthed from, youknow, the recent kind of
exploration or kind ofunderstanding of me having
anxiety and struggling withanxiety and kind of just wanting
to translate that to people whomaybe, who are around me that
maybe don't quite get it and Iprobably, if I searched that
more.
I was like I'm probably justtrying to tell like my family or
whatever.

Speaker 3 (58:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:09):
This is what it's like for me, and I happened to
show it to Dave Gregan.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
Yeah, and he was like oh, I like it, you know, I'd
work on this.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
But I held his other ones and I remember I was saying
to Shane the first time wecaught up I got all these
scripts and I go, oh there'sGreg, but like it feels a bit
safe.
And he immediately was like, soDave said he'd do it.
Yeah, just cut through all thatshit.
And he was like, well, thereyou go.
Like you wrote that from aplace of you know truth and
vulnerability and stuff.
Yeah, why would you make thelike, dude, it's half made this,

(58:41):
you've already started, youknow, yeah.
And then I just sort of, yeah,ejected this idea of it has to
be the first thing.
This thing has to bechallenging and daring and crazy
and ambitious or whatever.
And I was like not to say thatthis is.
It is safe, greg, necessarilynothing is safe, but it's, it's
got, it's got something in therealready that someone has, you
know, said yes to, and again,with no money or anything,

(59:04):
that's like that's half the filmbeing made.
So, yeah, I just kind offollowed that and I, yeah, shane
is a voice that you know, it'sone of the few and I think it's
why he's so special to me.
It's one of the few male voicesthat I listen to that I'm not
just immediately kind ofrejecting and he's totally like
become my kind of like film dadin that sense, and I ring him up
, I'm like it's like, I need,I've got this, I need, like I'm

(59:27):
on the therapy couch, you know,about this thing to do with some
script or something or whatever, and he will always listen and
always have time for me.
He's one of the most beautifulpeople on the planet, so, so
generous and amazing, and soit's really his spirit, paired
with Dave's kind of blessing andand sort of acknowledgement of
it, and then obviously theforever continued support of,
like my mom.

(59:47):
That was the person in my life,more than anyone, that's never
said no to me for any of thisstuff.
It just kind of kept rolling.
And then, unfortunately, nearthe end, Dave had to pull out
for a different thing.
But then Katrina Penning, whowas the first AC, stepped up
nobly and and just just did suchan amazing job.
And she sort of admitted laterthat it was like oh, I didn't
bring too much of myself to itbecause it was, like you know,

(01:00:09):
filling the hole that Dave leftand I was like that's you kind
of, oh, just sit back.
He was like that's what you didwith that yeah.
She was amazing and you see itin all her other work Like she's
one of the best here and sograteful, obviously for saving
it but for bringing what youknow her craft I mean incredible
craft to it.
Yeah, but dave's that initialthing that he you know the
energy that he gave it anacceptance or whatever another

(01:00:31):
beautiful, beautiful, beautifulman that's so unbelievably
generous and amazing yeah, andsomeone, someone, a friend, but
also someone that you reallylook up to oh yeah, yeah,
because he was the first guylike I met him film school was
the first sets that Iprofessional sets I was working
on was sort of gaffing orassisting him and those three
people really, you know, mum,dave and Shane, sort of they're
the key people, yeah, and it'skind of interesting that, like

(01:00:53):
you had and this might have beenan anxiety thing, I don't know
finding excuses of why youshouldn't follow.

Speaker 2 (01:01:04):
That will follow through with something that you
actually want to do.

Speaker 3 (01:01:06):
Oh, the myriad you know, and like the excuses we
make for ourselves to not do ityeah and the procrastination
yeah, you know and and it's sonice that shane had that
foresight.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
Just be like he's that you've got the thing
weaving, just do the thing, justdo it yeah.
Break the seal, man, yeahthere's the same reason why I
kind of jumped.
You know well one of thereasons why I jumped sort of
straight then after that tomaking my first feature.
Yeah, because it was like justdo it.

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
I think it takes practice, like it is really hard
to break that seal and do itthe first time.
But it's just, that issomething to practice you know
committing to something thatfeels, so that you feel you
don't have a right to do.

Speaker 1 (01:01:46):
Yeah, that was another thing that kind of
identified in my 20s or my late20s.
It was like you know, ifsomething doesn't have a manual,
I would be like, well, thatstays in the box.
You know that kind of mentality.

Speaker 3 (01:01:56):
You know I was so bad at that and now I do not give
up, but it's kind of it maybekind of makes me think of what
you were saying at the startabout your anxiety and
recognising how to sort ofmanage it and, you know, living
with it and Befriending it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:11):
Befriending- sure it's the best part of it,
personifying it, you know, yeah,but that's what Greg was all
about.
It was like that was a.
It was.
You know the film's about a guyjust before a date talking to
his anxiety and the anxiety iskind of trying to bully him, but
he's sort of not talking out ofthis, this thing, that could be
really good for him, yeah, butthe anxiety's intention is
actually he wants, he's tryingto help him.
He's trying to help him, butit's his war on war idea of what

(01:02:33):
help is.
He's kind of you know, go home,sit in the dark room by yourself
, because that's safe yeah, soit's a good intention, yeah, and
then you, when you learn totalk to your anxiety, that's
what sort of the end of the filmis.
It's like Evie's character was.
It's just a little hint of like.
She's actually someone that hasa conversation, is having a
conversation with hers, and soshe's in a slightly better place
.
So you know, if they do form arelationship, there's a bit of

(01:02:53):
like.
I can show you the ropes alittle bit.
Yeah, it's so nice.
That's sort of its method isreally ugly and yeah, and if I'm
not on my my game, it canreally throw me.
It's a big thing and it waslike, oh, the way that it held
me back for all those years.
It was like, well, it's not theanxiety's fault, it was my

(01:03:14):
fault for, again, not being notlistening to it in the right way
, and yeah, and then it's likethe anxiety actually, um, is
what's now kind of weirdlypropelling me, you know one of
the things, because it's part ofme.
And then now it's like, yeah,cool, I'm in feature land now
and I look at shorts.
I mean, neither of them havecome out yet.
But even if they fuckingdisappear and die, I feel, yeah,

(01:03:37):
like I said, I feel like I'vebroken that seal.
But it's like no, I'm there nowand now I'm just, I'm the devil
on everyone else's shoulders.
Every other filmmaker that Iknow's shoulders going can't do
the feature.
Do the feature.

Speaker 3 (01:03:46):
Yeah, yeah, Just do it.
Oh man, it feels so good yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:03:50):
I feel like I've validated myself.

Speaker 3 (01:03:58):
Yeah, that's it and you know it takes practice to
push through all the fears anddo it.
Well, anything that we evertalk about doing, any plans we
make doing this podcast, I thinkI had the idea for more than a
year and what I found myselfdoing was I kept buying shit to.
That was my version ofprocrastination.

(01:04:20):
Sure, Because I got all theseother mics that I got off.
Marketplace.
They're fine Then.
I'm like nah, because I alreadygot one of these ones.
They got a match and I shouldget this mixing desk thing.
I already had a, you know aninterface.
Yeah, I need to buy anothercamera.
I was just procrastinatingstarting the thing and then,

(01:04:42):
even once I started recordingthem, it took me ages to release
the first one.
Do you remember like we webumped into each other in the
supermarket and we were talkingabout like how to release the
first one?
Oh yeah, and and again, likethe same reason why I I it took
me so long to record the firstone and I had to bite the bullet
and I called nick and he was atmy house within 20 minutes and
I wasn't even set up and I justsaid, just come over.

(01:05:03):
I don't know how to record apodcast, but I definitely have
the equipment now.
Like I think we can do it justand I don't.
I don't know how to run aninterview and I don't even want
it to be an interview.
I just want to talk to myfriend and just come over.
And he was like, yeah, man.

(01:05:29):
And he, he just like jumped inin the deep end with me and we,
just, we just did it.
And then I was like I'll seewhat it comes out like, I'll
edit, edit it and trim the fat,and, and you know I waslike oh
, it was fine, yeah, and peopleliked it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:32):
You jumped off the cliff and you didn't hurt your
legs and you're like exactly,but like kind of fun while I was
gliding in the air.

Speaker 3 (01:05:35):
Yeah but but even that chat we had in the
supermarket, like I'd hitanother block where I was
procrastinating and I wasthinking about the perfect way
to release the first fewepisodes and, yeah, there's
probably a formula that's likeyou know, release three at once
and have you know to activatethe algorithm or whatever.
But then that became the reasonwhy I wasn't releasing anything

(01:05:57):
and I just went no, it's outthere.
The first one's out there nowand I've committed to weekly
episodes and you know I'm, youknow I missed one week, but you
know whatever, like I got sickbut at least I I've started and
now I'm like, okay, now there's,there's a pressure to release
them and that's going to allowme to actually not think about

(01:06:17):
when they're finished and justrelease them.
Yeah, do you know what I mean?
Yeah, like it doesn't have tobe perfect to get them out there
.
But the point is like juststarting and recognising when
you're procrastinating, andrecognising when you're finding
excuses not to start something.

Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
And be you know, be gentle with yourself and be like
going yeah there's that thingagain.
Okay, that's not actually a bigdeal, I should just do it, but
don't punish yourself if you youknow no, but recognise it.
It's part of the process.
I think, yeah, you know, youcan get yourself out of it in
the right way.

Speaker 3 (01:06:47):
It's funny Like Sona always reminds me of this.
Anytime I make something, likeany of the content that I make,
there's always a period becauseit takes like those reels took
me freaking ages, man, like toolong, can't keep that up.
But with this as well, there'salways a period where I'm
driving in the car with her andI'm like I don't know where it's

(01:07:08):
going.
I don't know what to do.
I've got no ideas.
It's crap.
I've wasted so much timerecorded all this stuff.
It's just rubbish.
And she's like you say thisevery single time and the next
day you've cracked it all andthen you release it three days
later and you're so stoked withit.
Yeah, but you go every singletime.
I go through that period whereI'm like I've, this is a waste

(01:07:29):
of time.
I don't know why I'm doing this.
I've got my ideas are crap.
Yeah, but that's part of myprocess.
You know, all that self-doubtis part of the process and
recognizing when that happensI'm like, oh, I'm doubting
myself, I hate everything I'mdoing.
I just have to get through thatlittle or just like bypass it

(01:07:49):
and be like okay enough of that.
Yeah, finish the thing, get itdone and release it.
You know it's part of theprocess you know, and the same
with like starting you know, allthat self-doubt and all the
procrastination is part of theprocess.
Yeah, get it done.
Yeah, okay, and you're inpre-production of another
feature.

Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
Yeah, which I don't know when this will be released.
It might be shooting by thatpoint.
But yeah, right in the thick ofit, where are you at in that
process, like what's?
Well, it's a bit blurry becauseI'm sort of it's a big ensemble
film and it's sort of like howI'm casting is also a bit based
on availability, so I want todevelop it with people as much

(01:08:29):
as possible.
But yeah, it's this sort ofsmall, beautiful crew of people.
But then it's like you know,casting is sort of like I'm
casting good people.
That's how it starts.
That's the first thing.
If they're a good actor, that'sa bonus.

Speaker 3 (01:08:42):
Sure, but just like genuine people yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:45):
And it's like it's helpful for this film, because
hey surprise, surprise, it's avery vulnerable film, yeah, but
yeah, so it's a really.
It's this really beautifulorganic thing.
It's kind of moving along andlike evolving.

Speaker 3 (01:08:58):
It's so cool, man, I'm really stoked that you're
like you're not just making thefilms that you want to make and
writing the films that you wantto write.
You're creating the environmentthat you want to work in as
well and finding the crew andthe cast that fit that ethos.

Speaker 2 (01:09:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:13):
Which is like it's just going to make for good art.
I think I think so, but so whenthese films are out, where can
you know?
Obviously, we want to keep someof the details under wraps for
the creative process andeverything but where can we find
you on social media so that wecan keep updated with your work?

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
Yeah, so it's all.
I'm all sort of.
All this stuff is localized onCats or Death Films.
Yeah, which is at Cats or DeathFilms?
Yeah, awesome Craig's out there.
You can watch it on the page.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:39):
That's done its little run All the bios and then
the other two.

Speaker 1 (01:09:42):
These features sometime next year.
We'll see Amazing.
We'll see where we go.

Speaker 3 (01:09:45):
But yeah, awesome man , thanks so much for being here,
man, this means so much, dude.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
Thank you, man.

Speaker 3 (01:09:50):
Love you, brother, love you too.

Speaker 2 (01:09:53):
Callan, you're the best man Thanks so much for on
Instagram at CatsOrDeathFilms.
But before you do ask yourselfone question Is it cats or death
?
Anyway, join me next week.
I have another really wonderfulguest coming on.
I won't say who it is becausewe haven't recorded the episode
yet, and just in case we get toobusy and it doesn't happen.

(01:10:16):
I don't want to make promises,but she's a wonderful actor and
I can't wait to have a chat withher.
It's going to be such a goodepisode.
Um, stay tuned for that one.
Please subscribe, hit, followall of those things.
Make sure you don't miss thatepisode.
All right, guys, I'll see younext week.
Stay off the internet.
It's too terrifying.
My name is chris gunn and, hey,go pluck yourself.
Thank you.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 7 Calen Vanstone: Finding Your Voice & Kicking Down Doors

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Dateline NBC

Stuff You Should Know

All Episodes

Ep 7 Calen Vanstone: Finding Your Voice & Kicking Down Doors

On Purpose with Jay Shetty