July 16, 2025 • 51 mins
Send Me Questions on Attachment
The complex relationship between faith and psychology takes center stage in this third installment of our shame series with theologian Jason Glenn. What happens when biblical understanding meets modern psychology? Can they coexist, or are they fundamentally at odds?
This rich conversation explores the suspicion many Christians hold toward therapeutic approaches, while acknowledging the growing recognition that faith practices positively impact mental health. Jason shares his perspective on how the counseling field has often prioritized making people "feel at peace with who they are" over addressing deeper spiritual needs, yet he also challenges harmful Christian misconceptions that equate mental health struggles with spiritual failure.
Through powerful personal stories, Jason reveals how his parents helped him navigate shame in psychologically and spiritually healthy ways. His mother's object lesson of burning written sins to illustrate God's forgiveness offered him a way to "disassociate my identity in Christ from my past sins" – creating resilience while maintaining appropriate conviction. Such formative experiences show how theology and psychology can work together rather than in opposition.
The discussion ventures into provocative territory when examining how church culture has shifted from fire-and-brimstone approaches to sometimes overcorrecting with therapeutic methods that prioritize affirmation over accountability. As Jason notes, "If the good news doesn't speak to your victimhood, it's not good news" has become an unspoken assumption in many congregations, reflecting how psychological concepts have subtly reshaped theological understanding.
For anyone struggling to reconcile their faith journey with psychological healing, this conversation offers a thoughtful middle path – one that honors both our complex psychological reality and timeless biblical truth. Whether you're a counselor, pastor, or simply someone navigating your own healing journey, you'll find wisdom for approaching shame in ways that lead to genuine transformation rather than either denial or identity-consuming guilt.
FOLLOW ME ON INSTAGRAM:
@godattachmenthealing
FOLLOW ME ON FACEBOOK:
God Attachment Healing
ABOUT ME 👇
My mission is to help you understand your attachment style to learn how you can heal from the pain you’ve experienced in your relationship with God, the church and yourself.
I look forward to walking alongside you as you draw closer to Christ!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
All right, everyone, as always, welcome back to the
God Attachment Healing Podcast.
I'm here again with my friend,jason Glenn, talking about shame
, and we are in the third partof this series and really
excited to have a greatconversation so far really
outlining the differencesbetween shame, guilt and
conviction, which was the lastepisode that we did, and the
(00:27):
first one was the biblical roleof shame in the life of a
Christian.
And today we're going to talkabout maybe some theological and
trauma-informed differences.
So more kind of counseling,biblical, and see where there's
overlap and maybe where there'ssome differences.
And again, just Jason, thanksfor being on the podcast.
I really enjoyed having you onthe show.
(00:50):
Really deep conversations, greatinsights on this aspect of
shame that I hadn't even thoughtof before.
I love the examples that you'vebeen providing and again, this
is just has been a blessedconversation.
So thank you for that.
Yeah, and now, as part of ourthird part of this series,
talking about how this respondsor how this correlates to the
(01:14):
counseling field and maybe howthe church has dealt with shame
in general.
But a question that may be Idon't know if it'll be
(01:36):
surprising but just as we've hadour conversations about shame
and how the Bible talks about it, and even how modern psychology
or counseling has kind ofaddressed it.
How do you feel aboutcounseling this aspect of shame
in people?
Because I think, as we've hadour conversations, not that you
maybe see it in a negative light, but there's been maybe how the
counseling field has approachedshame or just maybe mental
(01:59):
health issues in general, thereseems to be some opposition to
it or maybe some there's someprejudice.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
There's some prejudice, for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Okay.
So yeah, just curious aboutthat.
I mean, I understand yourbackground.
I came from Southern Baptistbackground, latino background,
so the idea of going into thecounseling field for me as a
profession was not the easiestroute.
Regarding my upbringing andculture.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
It was a shameful move, my friend.
A shameful move.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
It was and it honestly did, did very much feel
like that.
Where are you going to get intopsychology Like don't?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
you know that you might as well have gone into
alcohol.
You know distribution forgoodness sake, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah, I mean, there's this whole thing about it that
I had to go through anexperience of.
You know, why are you goinginto counseling?
Like you know, psychology justkind of removes the
responsibility from people.
You know, counseling is justkind of for the weak-minded.
You know Jesus is enough.
Like why do people even needcounseling?
So that's kind of what I grewup with and I had to really
(03:09):
wrestle with a lot of thoseconcepts and how does the bible
inform my approach to counseling?
So I I nailed that down.
I feel like I have a goodapproach and how I address
things through a christianworldview, uh, christian lens.
And yeah, just wanted to getyour thoughts in general.
What have you seen, becauseit's going to tie into our, our
topic today of uh, yeah, whathave you seen in the counseling
(03:32):
field that you feel hesitantabout or caution people about
modern psychology or counseling?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
yeah, yeah, totally, and and let me clarify again, I
appreciate the work of a lot ofcounselors doing really positive
things with the Word of God.
Uh is is becoming a narrow andnarrower road in many cases in
(04:08):
terms of regulation and what youcan say and can't say, um, and
how you can counsel and can'tcounsel.
So I, I I have some sympathy uhfor that, because I, these are
dear Christian friends who lovethe Lord uh deeply and feel
trapped uh at times, and somehave just simply left uh the
vocation and gone on to.
You know, some have landed insome good church counseling
(04:29):
positions, you know, someprivate, newthetic sort of
counseling, biblical counseling,and so I appreciate those
opportunities for them.
But all that to say yes, I'veobserved in my lifetime and of
course it started well before mylifetime in the counseling
field this migration totherapeutic counseling to make
(05:05):
the person feel at peace withwho they are, as long as they
are not hurting someone,including themselves, and that's
the goal, as long as you're atpeace with yourself, not hurting
yourself, not hurting anybodyelse, job done.
And that of course, can be donewith drugs or, you know, with
(05:30):
the use, the help of drugs, orof course it can be a which
sometimes is necessary.
I'm not saying there arecertainly some issues,
biologically, physically, thatcertainly necessitates the use
of psychiatry, but I'm justsaying this is the mode, this is
(05:53):
the modus operandi of the wholesystem, and if they don't need
drugs, then they use concepts offreedom, concepts of self-love
of freedom, concepts ofself-love that oftentimes are
more akin to licentiousness, aremore akin to theologically
(06:16):
speaking self-delusion, wherethey adopt an identity that they
can affirm and they jettisonany voice or any conviction or
any guilt or any shame that isulterior to the identity that
(06:39):
they can live with in a peacefulmanner.
That's what I have seen incounseling for decades and
that's you know.
Granted, again, not everycounselor and lots of Christian
counselors that intertwine, evencarefully, they intertwine the
scripture and biblicalprinciples into their counseling
(07:03):
and some of them do a great joband they never run into any
lawsuits or or any pushback.
And it's a beautiful thing andand I'm a man, I'm thankful for
it because they they're allowedthe space to really help people
according to what I would thinkthe word of God would have them
help people.
And and again, it's not.
I'm not just talking aboutnewthetic biblical counselors
(07:25):
only.
There are certainly greatconcepts that we've learned from
psychology and philosophy.
Uh, and that's, that's a partof my.
My dissertation is wrestling iswrestling with, um, primitive
shame versus, uh, a matureunderstanding of shame?
Yeah, working with holdingright and attachment concepts
(07:55):
and how that relates to shame.
So that's I have to.
I've got to read, you know,that stuff and try to figure out
.
Okay, how do we address thisfrom a biblical, theological
space that validates, you know,the presence of a type of shame
(08:16):
where I can say it's a healthything, even though there is some
truth to the fact that there'sprimitive shame.
There is primitive shame that,if carried with you in a
narcissistic way, is veryunhealthy.
So it's, yeah.
(08:37):
So all that to say.
I agree with so much, but I dodisagree with a lot.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, yeah, and you know, you you made the point
there about the, the limitationsthat are being placed on, uh,
counselors who are Christian orwho have Christian counselor
settings and so on, and I thinkthere's been a shift in the last
two to three years of peopleacknowledging you know, even in
the secular world the importanceof the way that they'll say it
(09:07):
is, the importance of religionin a person's life.
So it's called religiosity,where the practices that you do
are helpful to your overallmental health, to your wellbeing
.
So, seeking out community,praying, having meals together,
all of these things that we doas part of the church that
they're seeing, yeah, thesethings are helpful and it makes
(09:28):
perfect sense when we thinkabout how God created us.
He created us for connection,for relationships, so all of
those things that may have beenpushed back a number of years
ago, it sounds like counselorsare starting to see that and
saying, hey, you know what?
There is something about thisthat contributes to a person's
overall mental health.
(09:49):
Again, for us, we see clients asa whole.
Right, it's not just physical,mental and emotional, but we see
the spiritual piece that peopleare trying to meet that need
through these various ways.
And a big push was, and Iactually did an episode with a
girl who came out of this Gosh.
(10:09):
Why is it escaping me?
Not the New Ages?
What am I thinking about?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
The cult.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Not the cult.
The buffet of religions thatpeople can turn to and pick and
choose from all these differentthings.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Oh okay, pluralism or something like that, yeah, yeah
.
Or something like that, yeah,yeah like new age spirituality.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
That's the word.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So this new age spirituality where it's the way
that she described it was I likethis from this religion, I like
this from this religion, and soon, and I found out that at the
end of it it was empty, Becauseit was just doing certain
things to try to fill thisspiritual need that I had.
It was just doing certain thingsto try to fill this spiritual
need that I had until I foundJesus.
(10:49):
Was that need met right?
So where we can take thisconversation, I think, is when
we talk about the theologicalunderstanding're not addressing
the spiritual.
Then everything else is goingto be off right.
(11:12):
But in reality it seems thatpeople can be good in their
physical, mental and emotionaland be very off in their
spiritual being or the oppositeside.
They can be very good in theirspiritual being or the opposite
side.
They can be very good on theirspiritual side, and this is
maybe where you can add to thispart here, where they can be in
right relationship with God butmay also be struggling mentally,
(11:34):
emotionally and physicallyTotally.
Yeah, yeah, is there anythingto add to?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
that there's so much, there's so much meat there.
I mean we can.
We can go in hundreds ofdifferent directions.
Obviously there's a low-hangingfruit of chemical dependencies.
There's a Christian that is analcoholic, has been an alcoholic
, that might need chemical ordrug intervention to help them
(12:05):
get through, to get off thataddiction.
There might be the Christianthat struggles with
schizophrenia, that struggleswith obsessive compulsive
(12:26):
disorder.
Right, and yes, there areChristians out there and, man,
I'm sure you've got your ownfeelings and convictions about
this.
But there are Christians outthere that said, well, if
they're still struggling withobsessive compulsive disorder,
if they're still struggling withbipolar disorder, then they, to
(12:51):
your point, they haven't gottheir spirituality right, they
aren't truly a Christian.
Holy Spirit really isn'tabiding in them.
You hear that every now andthen from people and you're like
I think your bodies are a bitmore complex.
You know it's.
It's it's kind of like saying,oh did, did your, did your dad
get alzheimer's man?
(13:12):
I can't believe he lost hissalvation you know, because all
of a sudden it is.
he doesn't know who he is andhis body's not working right,
his mind's not working right.
Does that mean that now he'snot right spiritually?
Well, we would, most of uswould say, well, that's nonsense
, jason.
But Does that mean that nowhe's not right spiritually?
Well, most of us would say,well, that's nonsense, jason.
But in many ways that's whatwe're talking about with some of
these mental disabilities andbiological disabilities that
(13:37):
cause people to really struggleChristians, christians To really
struggle with these issues.
So, yeah, there's definitely aplace in my book for psychiatry.
Now do I think that drugs havebeen used in an improper way and
overused and the wrong drugsused to address symptoms?
(14:02):
And yeah, yes, yes, and that'sa whole problem.
But that doesn't mean that thedesire to try to use this
natural world to address thesepsychos, psychosomatic these,
these, these mental and physicalphysiological problems,
(14:25):
problems, is a bad thing.
I mean, again, that's likesaying, well, you know, they
need a blood transfusion, butman, it's just, it's not right
for us to actually put somebodyelse's blood inside that person.
You know and there are somereligions that believe that,
right, you know, and there aresome religions that believe that
(14:50):
, right, um, but I think youraverage christian would say,
let's, let's give that personsome blood, you know, okay, uh.
So, yeah, I definitely agree,uh, that counseling can serve,
does serve, um, to really comealongside of spiritual truths.
I really benefited.
Early on my dad got a hold of,and I don't know when he first
(15:11):
ran into it.
He ran into a guy named NeilAnderson and I don't know if
you've ever heard of NeilAnderson.
He was out of Talbot Seminary,yeah, that's right.
But Neil definitely did addressthe fact that we've we've got
body issues as well as mindissues as well, as you know.
(15:31):
So, uh, and early on, my dadhanded me a list of who I am in
Christ that Neil Anderson madeup of all the verses that said
all the things about who weliterally are, what God says
about who we are in Christ Jesus, and that list, the list of who
we are in Christ.
I read through that many timesin my life.
(15:56):
But get this, this is what myfather had me do when I was, uh,
I'd say maybe eight to tenyears old.
He had me speak into amicrophone this list of who I am
in christ, using pure scripture, and then on a tape recorder
and then listen to the tapeevery single night before I went
(16:19):
to bed.
Call that biofeedback right,and that's a psychological tool.
Um, it's a.
Sometimes it's a counselingmethodology.
Um, but my dad had me listen tomyself staying the scriptures
of who I am in christ everynight.
For, I mean, I did it probablyfor a at least six months or so.
(16:43):
How was that for you?
I've never struggled with who Iam in Jesus.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Have I felt shame when you were going through the
stage where you were rebellingagainst the Lord?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
No, even when I was rebelling, I felt ashamed for
what I was doing and felt guiltyabout it.
But then I would confess thesin and just do it again the
next day.
But I never doubted my identityin Christ.
Maybe I should have right, butI didn't.
(17:23):
And so when, when I, when Ireally became repentant, I had
all of these things happen to me, my girlfriend, who I thought I
was going to marry, broke upwith me.
I was going in the Marine Corps.
I went to officer candidateschool in Quantico.
(17:44):
I had some run-ins with theleadership there.
I wrote a bad check at a bar.
Before I left, my mom called meand told me that there was a
warrant out for my arrest, youknow.
So I'm sitting in the middle of,and my father was dying of
cancer at the time.
And so I'm at Quantico, I'maway, I'm in a horrible
(18:06):
environment.
It's very difficult, it's verylonely, it's hard.
And I had all these thingsgoing on around me and I broke
down and I was alone and I readthe word of God alone in the
barracks for the first time in along time, when everybody else
(18:26):
was off in Washington DC for theweekend because they got to go
and I was being disciplined formy activities and so I couldn't
go and I was alone and I readthe word of God and I felt
convicted in that moment that Iwas not being who I was supposed
to be.
So it was kind of a firstbreakthrough, if you will, of
(18:51):
shame, real shame, conviction,real conviction, real exposure.
And then I went back home, I gotout of there, I left the Marine
home, I got out of there, Ileft the Marine Corps, I got out
of there and I was at a men'sconference the spring semester
of my senior year 1998.
(19:13):
Uh, and it was some of theseguys Rick Rigsby, I don't know
if you know any of these guys,some of these guys are still
going, they're still speaking atThomas road Baptist, at
conferences periodically.
But it was a men's conferenceand I sat in the stadium with
all these men and these guys,one after another, were getting
up that wrote books on how to bea man and repentance and sin,
(19:37):
and I felt this enormous stingcome over me.
And again I had been sleeping,I'd been fornicating, I had been
being a drunk, abusive, and Ihad already walked away from the
Marine Corps and I'd alreadystarted to change my activities
(19:59):
but I still hadn't kind of bornethe weight of who I'd been
being to, I think, the degreethat I needed to own it and I
went back to my I took, I leftthe conference and went back to
my dorm and I got on the phonewith my parents and I started
bawling, weeping, and I just, Ijust said mom, dad, I have, I
(20:22):
have been slandering your, ourname, um, I have been dragging
our name through the mud and Ihave been not the man I was
supposed to be and the Christian.
So I'm weeping uncontrollablyand that was my moment of
(20:45):
contrition and it was shame thatled to that contrition I
appreciate you sharing thatbrother yeah it sounds like, uh,
your shame.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I guess one part speaks to the level of interest
you have in it.
And then there's this realpowerful part of your story that
ties into that as well, totallyyeah um, you know, I'm curious
what you think about people whogrew up christian homes as well
yeah and maybe had shamingparents maybe not in the way
(21:19):
that you described.
Like you know, we talked in ourfirst episode of how we do that
with our kids at times, but theshaming maybe of that example
you gave of the restaurant whereyou mess everything up.
You're good for nothing.
You know the Lord can't love youbecause A, b and C, you know
girl, the daughter gets pregnantat age 14, 15, and you know
you're good for nothing.
You're brushing and shamingthings right, and that person
(21:43):
comes into the counseling officeand they have this level of
shame.
Their experience with shame isone of.
This is who I am and themessaging is strong and this is
where, from a biblicalperspective, we know what the
Bible teaches about that, aboutthem being you.
If they come to know the Lord,they repent, but they still have
(22:04):
these ongoing thoughts andfeelings about shame in general
and feelings about shame ingeneral, and the number one
predictor or contributor to aclient's growth is their
experience with a counselor.
One of the main reasons why I dothe work that I do is that God
provides these opportunities tomeet people where they are and
(22:26):
have them have a differentexperience, a corrective
experience, than that that theyhave with their parents.
So this aspect they come in withthis level of I'm this, I'm
that, and I'm not only sharingthe opposite of that message,
but the experience that theyhave with me in the session of
compassion, loving graciousness,what the Lord has done in my
(22:49):
life.
Hopefully, presenting there inthe session is what starts to
bring about some of that shamefrom maybe some traumatic
experience that they had growingup.
Is that something that you seeevidence in the scriptures?
Scriptures there's so manypeople and obviously, reading
(23:11):
through scriptures, there's somany people that by today's
terms, and maybe even as youlook and you're like wow, that
was traumatic that we would saythat was a traumatic instance
and we don't get the story ofwhat that process was like for
them.
We just know kind of what theend result was.
Paul was probably someone whodealt with a lot of traumatic
memories from what he did toChristians, right.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yeah, he had PTSD from everything.
He had PTSD from everything.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Joseph, you know, being sold and enslaved by his
brother.
So all of these examples thatwe see in Scripture, we don't
see the process of that, and Ithink that's one of the things I
had to wrestle with a lot isthat all we see is okay, here's
what they went through and thenthe Lord showed up in this way.
But that middle ground a lot ofpeople struggle with that
because they want that resultthat the Lord shows up and the
(24:02):
ups and downs to get therecauses doubt and confusion for
them, and that's part of mewalking with them.
How would you explain thatprocess?
Because that is what we see, ordo you see something different?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
No, man, I just I'm so fortunate.
I am so fortunate I had amother that really helped me
understand God's grace.
My father preached God's graceand he certainly understood
God's grace, but he was not agreat interpersonal communicator
(24:39):
.
His father was a drunkard, hismother was abusive.
He came from the wrong side ofthe tracks.
He just had a really hard, hardupbringing.
His father would go, lose thepaycheck and gambling card game
and my dad would have to, as ateenager, go back into the card
(25:00):
game, win his father's paycheckback, take it back home.
Just a hard, hard environment.
All that to say, my fatherdidn't necessarily have the good
one-on-one help me walk throughsome of the interpersonal,
(25:20):
emotional, psychologicalstruggles as a teenager and as
an adolescent that I would haveliked, but my mother actually
did Right.
Adolescent that I would haveliked, but my mother actually
did Right.
And so one of the wonderfulthings my mom did with me early
on as a child when I had a heavy, I got saved.
(25:40):
When I was five and I would saythat again, a lot of my story is
having a very heavy consciencefrom a very early age and the
Holy Spirit was with me, talkingto me, convicting me, and I
just could not get away withanything in myself.
I would go and confess, confess, confess.
(26:04):
And there were times when I waslike Mom, I'm doing this again,
I'm doing this again, does Godreally forgive me?
Does God really forgive me?
And I'm like Mom, I'm doingthis again, I'm doing this again
.
Does God really forgive me?
Does God really forgive me?
And I'm like, I mean, I'm likesix years old, seven years old,
and my mom said, jason, let's goin the kitchen, let's sit on
the floor.
And she said write all of yoursins on a piece of paper.
And so I wrote them.
And then she brought out thisbowl and she brought out a
(26:27):
lighter and she just lit them toflame and burned all those
pieces of paper in front of me.
She says, jason, that's whatthese are to God, right?
So I had a mother that helpedme to in some ways disassociate
my identity in Christ from mypast sins, if that makes sense,
(26:53):
yeah, right, yeah, so I'm not,I'm not, I'm not.
I was taught by my parents tonot carry my, my sins, with me
in my identity.
Now, that's not to say thatthey didn't say stuff like jason
, there you go again.
You know, or you know, you're,you're.
You just can't shut your mouth,can you?
(27:15):
you know, you know, of course Iget, I've got a bit of that
right, but when it came down tothose really deeply, um,
internal struggles, uh, onissues of sin, my, my mom, uh,
my father, gave me the biblicallanguage, taught me scripture,
gave me the verses, and my momgave me a bit of the psychology,
(27:40):
if you will, to help me to walk.
And so when I talk toindividuals and counsel them,
young men, I disciple a lot ofyoung men.
I am walking them through thescriptures, I'm showing them
that the scriptures identify thefact that they are sinners.
(28:00):
They're still going to sinperiodically.
They might even sin more, youknow, a lot more than they want
to.
However, if their faith is inChrist and they truly have
(28:26):
repented and believed, they havea new identity, deal with the
complexity of that old sinnature and the consequences of
that sin that they dip and diveback into, while they are
(28:46):
seeking to conform moreperfectly in their actions and
in their patterns and behaviorsto their identity that is fixed
and secured in Christ Jesus.
So that's a complex, you knowit's clearly a complex answer
because you've got multipleidentities that you're dealing
(29:09):
with.
Because you've got multipleidentities that you're dealing
with, you've got who you are inChrist and then who you were and
who you have a tendency tostill be and act upon on the
daily.
(29:29):
That the Bible gives you andthat a counselor can give you,
that a community ofaccountability can give you, to
try and continue to conform moreperfectly to the image of
Christ Jesus.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah, absolutely, brother, absolutely.
And you were 5'6 at this stage,when you're being taught these
things.
And I think the other importantpiece of this is that there are
these stages of life that we gothrough that show us different
aspects of god's character,different experiences, right?
So when you become a teenager,I remember, just to show my, my
(30:06):
sister, I was like um, I think Iwas like listening to this
music and it was like it wouldcost and all these things.
And I told her you know, Irecommitted my life to christ.
I think I was like 12, no, Iwas like 15 or something.
And I told her you want to seehow committed I am?
and I grabbed all my cds andjust broke them like here's how
committed I am, so trying toshow all these things, because
in that time I felt convictedabout that and I felt like she
(30:29):
was judging me, like you're notreally a good example to me.
I'm the oldest of four, soyou're not really being a good
example, and in my teenage mindthat for me was a level of
commitment.
But then it felt fake becausethen I went right back to it.
I still liked it and I feltguilty about it.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
So all of these things, these different stages
of life that just show usdifferent aspects of who god is
and how he shows up in thosemoments, and our little
commitment yeah, no, I, I getthat with young guy, with young,
young college students, guysand girls that I've, I've, I've
counseled in my role as ateacher and just discipling.
Um, I was saved at seven.
(31:10):
Uh, things were good, went off,I was in high school and got it
with the wrong crowd and I hadsex and I started doing drugs or
man, I got into pornography and, uh, man, mr gwen, I just uh, I
don't, I don't think I'm saved,I don't and I'm saved and I'm
(31:30):
like right, let's walk throughthis, you know, to your point.
Because the mistake in myopinion and of course sometimes
they're certainly, I'm suresometimes they're not actually
saved yeah, let's just get thatout of the way but oftentimes
they most certainly are.
They most certainly are aChristian.
(31:52):
The Spirit of God mostcertainly abides in them.
The mistake is, I reached adifferent phase of life and I
didn't know how to control myflesh.
I didn't have the resources toaddress the temptation sources,
(32:13):
to address the temptation.
I wasn't mature enough, didn'thave the community of support to
help me to walk my faith intothis new place in life.
I had never experienced thepower of that particular type of
temptation before and I gave in, and I gave in and I gave in
and now I don't think that Iever was saved, because I'm
giving into this temptation thatI had never experienced when I
(32:36):
was young and when I was withChrist, when I was a Christian,
when I was a good Christian andI truly believed or I truly was
faithful.
But this must mean maybe I'mnot a Christian after all.
So these stages of life arehuge when it comes to emotional
(33:01):
health, psychological health andspiritual health and how they
all blend together and determinethe thought life for a lot of
people.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know we talked aboutthe stages of life and the part
where identity really starts toget formed in the life of a
person really starts in thatadolescent age.
You know, where we're reachingfor different things to see who
we identify with, who's ourgroup, who's not.
So one of the things I thinkthat I see in practice,
(33:33):
especially when we talk aboutidentity, trauma, shame and all
these different things, is it'sduring that period of
adolescence where children arereaching out for different
things, different groups, tofind their identity, and a big
part of that is the parent'srole within that.
And whatever is going on inthat time for that child is the
(33:54):
message that they're getting,whether it be indirectly or
directly, right.
So, for example, the dynamic haschanged a lot in our culture
around the presence of parentswithin the home.
So when both parents areworking outside of the home and
children get home and there's noone there, there's this belief
(34:14):
that creeps in that I'm notreally cared for.
I kind of have to fend formyself.
Mom and dad are doing whatthey're doing and that's just
what they have to do, butthere's this element of neglect.
Right, that's how it'sperceived at an experiential
level for a lot of thesestudents.
So, yeah, so that's changed theconversation a lot.
(34:38):
So one of the things that'sbeen hard for me as a Christian
counselor is how do I deal withthat dynamic that they bring
into, this feeling of beingneglected?
Even though that may not bewhat the parents wanted to
communicate, that is what theyunderstood from it.
So it's hard because you're notdenying the experience but at
the same time, you're trying tohelp them understand, maybe,
(34:58):
some of the realities thathappen in life and it's hard.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
No, it is.
Yeah, again, I don't need tosay this in a pejorative way,
but the victim mindset is huge,it's huge and it is taken over,
at least.
And if there's, if there's amovement away from it.
You know, praise, praise, god,um, but the?
But psychologists got andcounselors got so used to
(35:27):
looking for the victim in everypatient.
Yeah, yeah, I would agree withthat.
And is there, is there anotherside to that?
Is there, is there the pastor,or the Sunday school teacher or
the parent that looks for, youknow, the criminal on every
child?
Sure, yeah, and, and this, thisis where counseling comes into
(35:51):
play.
Right To work with people thathave been banged up, by people
that didn't articulate thegospel with compassion and
balance.
But, yeah, the counselingpsychology industry has just
been looking for and validatingevery ounce of the victim that
(36:15):
they can find.
And that, I think, ultimately,is probably what?
Because this started decadesago.
Yeah, um, that's probably whatreally started this whole
anti-shame movement, becauseshame is inherently tied to
(36:37):
victim and if you treat thevictim in the wrong way or
ignore the fact that they are avictim, then you are inherently
shaming them and it makes thevictim feel bad.
It doesn't help them to comeout of their hurt and their pain
(37:00):
and into a flourishing life,and we want to create safe
spaces where the victims willnever be shamed, and we want to
create school systems where theidentity that they have chosen,
where they can be at peace withthemselves and not hurt anybody,
(37:23):
is that has to be protectedfrom any ounce of something that
would make them feel ashamed,which is impossible, which, of
course, is impossible, I meanone of the ways you know you
mentioned.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
I don't know if it's moving away from the victim
mindset, but there is a lot ofresearch on the topic of
resilience and that is a spacewhere, at least for me and a
number of other Christiancounselors where there's this
focus of okay, well, okay, youwent through that, you're here
today, how did you get throughthat?
And you're here today.
(38:00):
And that's the focus, asopposed to what maybe secular
accounts may focus on is thatwas so horrible?
And maybe they keep them inthat mindset.
As a matter of fact, they'veeven done research on what
brings healing is not talkingabout the past.
It's using that understanding tobehave or to start implementing
(38:21):
certain behaviors now to changethe narrative, moving forward
right yeah and you need to focuson what kept you resilient
throughout that time and infaith communities, it's you know
what for me it was.
When this happened with myparents, the church really came
and supported, uh me throughoutthat process.
They were there for me.
I got involved in awana.
(38:41):
I had a great, you know, youthpastor.
Whatever the case is, there'sthese aspects of how the church
helps people cope with thosedifficulties and that becomes
the focus, and this is againgoes back to the idea of how
does faith play a role in mentalhealth, exactly like we're
talking about it Usually,through community, the influence
of a mentor, someone involvedin the process that helps them
(39:04):
through that stage of life,discipleship, right, we see that
in Scripture as well.
So I just love that that hasbecome part of the conversation
now, because it is somethingthat we need to focus on.
We can't focus on that victimmentality because, again, that
just keeps people in that stateof mind.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Yeah, the end game of resiliency and I do.
Yeah, I've heard of that andI've looked into it a little bit
.
I think so much of that isintuitive to scripture, right?
Um, and?
And it's that balance that Iwas talking about earlier.
It's the balance of jasonyou're a sinner, you're broken
(39:43):
and you're gonna do sinfulthings.
However, in christ, you're anew creation and old things have
passed away and all things havebecome new and you are given,
via the Holy Spirit, the meansto act upon this new person that
you are.
Yes, it's hard, yes, it takestime to learn.
(40:05):
Romans 12, 1 and 2, like do notconform any longer to the
pattern, pattern this world.
Be transformed by the renewingof your mind.
Then you'll be able to test andimprove.
What god's will is is good,pleasing, perfect will, right.
So it's in the text where wehave an old person who is bent
towards sin, destruction, uh,selfishness, egotistical
(40:31):
ambition, whatever the case,self-preservation at the expense
of others.
We have that person with us,but we have this as a Christian,
this new creation, and we needto work on renewing our mind
about how that new creation seesthings, how he acts on things,
(40:54):
how he loves things and peopleand how he approaches life and
how he approaches pain, how heapproaches offense and being
insulted right.
And this is where I say the endgame.
The end game of resiliency, inmy opinion, is getting that
(41:19):
person that has now recognizedchurch as being a part of their
coping and has recognized churchas a part of their formative
and has recognized church as apart of their formative safe
place to grow and to be affirmedin the right things.
The endgame is to get them tothe point where they don't need
(41:43):
that constant affirmation andthey don't view the church for
what it can give to them ideallyand primarily, but they view it
as the place where god hascalled them to serve and to
minister and to be available, uh, and to and and and to be
(42:06):
taught and to glean right.
Because all too often when avictim-mindsetted person leans
over and grabs the church asthat safe place that just
ministers to them and doesn'tharm them, then they see the
(42:27):
church that way, and when aviolation comes in, as it most
certainly always does, givenenough time, then their
association of their pain comesback to the church Right, and
the church is no longer thatsafe place anymore, and so the
end game is to help them getbeyond that.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Yeah, the focus that you were mentioning there seems
to be on what is self-servingand not what is ultimately going
to be.
What can I give to others?
Based off what I received fromthe church, because I think I
encounter more, especially forthose who grew up in the church.
They have a good understandingof their fallen nature, their
(43:11):
wretchedness, of their sinfulacts.
They have a good understanding.
What they have a difficult timeunderstanding is grace,
patience and love.
Like they, because they usuallygrow with parents who are a
little bit more the harsher ormore critical side.
Like they get it.
Like that makes sense.
No, this is the Bible.
The Bible teaches this and that.
(43:33):
That was me right.
But having a hard timeunderstanding what grace and
patience and love is becausethat's seen as weak or it's seen
as, oh, you're justifyingsomeone's behavior because
you're not addressing the rootissue.
But no, someone's behaviorbecause you're not addressing
the root issue.
But no, it's this newexperience with people from the
(43:53):
church or a specific person thatshows a different side of God's
character.
You're already very well awareof your fallenness and sometimes
overemphasizing that keeps youstuck in it.
So when you experience gracefrom someone else and patience
and love now, it's like, okay,this is new for me, but I still
understand my fallenness.
But now I'm understanding.
This new aspect of God'scharacter is like that he still
(44:15):
loves me, right, and that's thehard part that people have those
who grew up in the church.
Now, those who did not grow upin the church they've lived
their life they think you know,well, you know God's going to
accept me anyways.
They come to the Lord and theyrealize, oh no, I got to change
(44:36):
my life around.
This is not pleasing to theLord.
So for them, the hard part, forthem to accept that first is
all these new ways of livinglife, of giving of myself to
other people.
Well, people hurt me, why wouldI give to?
Speaker 2 (44:44):
them.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Well, that's kind of part of being self-sacrificial.
That's what Jesus did for usand so on.
So it really comes down to atleast the way that it's
approached in my setting is whatdoes the client need?
And if they receive thatmessage of always, of just being
a sinful, wretched person, thenwhat they're gonna need in the
(45:06):
counseling session is how theyexperienced me as a counselor,
with the grace, mercy,compassion, peace, and hopefully
the goal is that they find abalance between those two, cause
you usually have people oneither side either all justice,
all wrath, all you know, fire,brimstone and then you have over
here all grace, all love, allmercy and no judgment.
(45:27):
Right, it's trying to helpeither one see the other side
and find a balance in that, intheir yeah I just these days,
sam, I just don't run into thatfire and brimstone.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
I can't remember the last time I did.
Yeah, you know, I'm sure I'm.
It's probably out there incertain denominations.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
You see more of the other side now.
Like the more grace thateverything passed non-judgmental
oh yeah, totally in theevangelical churches.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
I have not seen this highly judgmental fire and
brimstone thing.
I don't know for years.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Yeah, why do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
again because they've adopted therapeutic psychology.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
That's true, they have become and which drives me
nuts.
By the way, I hate when, fromthe pulpit Again, because
they've adopted therapeuticpsychology.
That's true, they have become,which drives me nuts.
By the way, I hate when, fromthe pulpit, pastors are trying
to teach pop psychology.
That's the approach.
Just teach the scriptures, man,stick to your lane.
But they're trying to approachall these principles.
Talk in psychology, leave thatseparate.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
That's my perspective on it yeah, but, and again, you
have to remember that, uh,these things have woven
themselves into systematictheology and they've been done.
They've done so for the past 100years.
So we're not, we're not talkingabout, necessarily, just about,
(46:50):
uh, you know, winnicott holding,and, and, and we're not talking
about these stages of life thatappeared, um, uh, you know, in
the, in in the last 50 years,although you know that's
certainly a part of it.
We're talking about Kierkegaardand we're talking about Hegel,
(47:12):
and we're talking about a lot ofother postmodern philosophers
that have been feedingtheologians, that have been
teaching pastors in theirseminaries for over 100 years
now on these issues of identity,on these issues of how do you
(47:35):
address sin, and the pastor andthe youth minister and the
biblical counselor are just asconcerned about making their
parishioners feel good as thecounselor is, to bringing peace
to them, as the counselor is,and and and, of course, yes, um,
(48:01):
the counselor, god willing, hasgone to school for it, and at
least they're experts in theparticular, supposed to be in
that particular ideology andfield.
And so, yeah, the youthminister might think he
understands some things, or thepastor might think he
understands some thingsclinically that he doesn't
actually understand.
But there's enough integrationof what we would call liberal
(48:24):
theology that has been informedby German idealism, right that
you know you're going to getthese understandings of the
therapeutic reality in ourchurches and in our small groups
and in our church, our pastor'soffices.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Yeah, yeah, it almost seems like it's so much right
Because both of them are dealingwith the person.
Both fields are, and one, atleast from a pastor perspective,
it seems it's morecongregational, more community,
and with a counselor it'sindividual.
I feel like a lot of timespastors are just so overwhelmed
with all the other stuff goingon within the church that to
(49:08):
really actually walk withsomeone through something, uh,
it's, it's too much right.
And that's where I advocate alot for, you know, for those of
us who are counselors in thefield and have a christian
worldview, that's, you know, weneed to be able to be there for
that.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
And, yeah, good resources good churches, yeah,
good churches with you know.
You know, for those that holdto the normal model, that are
successful oftentimes, willbring on a pastoral counseling
minister and have them on staff,and that's a beautiful thing.
But you're right, a lot ofpastors feel indebted to speak
(49:51):
to the victimhood of all oftheir parishioners.
Yeah, because what, sam, whatthe average Christian in the
United States has been told forthe last several decades, is, if
the good news doesn't speak toyour victimhood, it's not good
(50:12):
news.
And so if you're a pastorattempting to convince your
congregation that you've gotgood news to them and that the
Bible is good news, you've gotto convince yourself through
study and through maybe adoptingsome ideology and reading up
(50:33):
some books, and you've got toconvince your congregation that
the gospel speaks directly tothe victimhood that is being
addressed constantly in our dayand time.
Yeah, yeah, in our day and time.
Yeah, yeah, and you're right,there are tragic consequences to
(50:55):
that that were never intended,but they are realities.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
Right.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
That's good, Bro.
We could keep on going.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
We could talk forever .
Speaker 1 (51:06):
No, I appreciate you so much, bro.
This has been a greatconversation.
I think we've got some threesolid episodes here.
Obviously, there's always morethat we can discuss.
Hopefully in the future we canlink up again and have some more
conversations.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
You bet, but thank you for your time.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Thank you, sam.
I know the audience is going toreally appreciate these
conversations, so thank you,brother, god willing, those of
you who are listening.
Thanks for tuning in and I'llsee you next time.
All right, everyone, as always, welcome back to the
God Attachment Healing Podcast.
I'm here again with my friend,jason Glenn, talking about shame
, and we are in the third partof this series and really
excited to have a greatconversation so far really
outlining the differencesbetween shame, guilt and
conviction, which was the lastepisode that we did, and the
(00:27):
first one was the biblical roleof shame in the life of a
Christian.
And today we're going to talkabout maybe some theological and
trauma-informed differences.
So more kind of counseling,biblical, and see where there's
overlap and maybe where there'ssome differences.
And again, just Jason, thanksfor being on the podcast.
I really enjoyed having you onthe show.
(00:50):
Really deep conversations, greatinsights on this aspect of
shame that I hadn't even thoughtof before.
I love the examples that you'vebeen providing and again, this
is just has been a blessedconversation.
So thank you for that.
Yeah, and now, as part of ourthird part of this series,
talking about how this respondsor how this correlates to the
(01:14):
counseling field and maybe howthe church has dealt with shame
in general.
But a question that may be Idon't know if it'll be
(01:36):
surprising but just as we've hadour conversations about shame
and how the Bible talks about it, and even how modern psychology
or counseling has kind ofaddressed it.
How do you feel aboutcounseling this aspect of shame
in people?
Because I think, as we've hadour conversations, not that you
maybe see it in a negative light, but there's been maybe how the
counseling field has approachedshame or just maybe mental
(01:59):
health issues in general, thereseems to be some opposition to
it or maybe some there's someprejudice.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
There's some prejudice, for sure.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Okay.
So yeah, just curious aboutthat.
I mean, I understand yourbackground.
I came from Southern Baptistbackground, latino background,
so the idea of going into thecounseling field for me as a
profession was not the easiestroute.
Regarding my upbringing andculture.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
It was a shameful move, my friend.
A shameful move.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
It was and it honestly did, did very much feel
like that.
Where are you going to get intopsychology Like don't?
Speaker 2 (02:40):
you know that you might as well have gone into
alcohol.
You know distribution forgoodness sake, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yeah, I mean, there's this whole thing about it that
I had to go through anexperience of.
You know, why are you goinginto counseling?
Like you know, psychology justkind of removes the
responsibility from people.
You know, counseling is justkind of for the weak-minded.
You know Jesus is enough.
Like why do people even needcounseling?
So that's kind of what I grewup with and I had to really
(03:09):
wrestle with a lot of thoseconcepts and how does the bible
inform my approach to counseling?
So I I nailed that down.
I feel like I have a goodapproach and how I address
things through a christianworldview, uh, christian lens.
And yeah, just wanted to getyour thoughts in general.
What have you seen, becauseit's going to tie into our, our
topic today of uh, yeah, whathave you seen in the counseling
(03:32):
field that you feel hesitantabout or caution people about
modern psychology or counseling?
Speaker 2 (03:38):
yeah, yeah, totally, and and let me clarify again, I
appreciate the work of a lot ofcounselors doing really positive
things with the Word of God.
Uh is is becoming a narrow andnarrower road in many cases in
(04:08):
terms of regulation and what youcan say and can't say, um, and
how you can counsel and can'tcounsel.
So I, I I have some sympathy uhfor that, because I, these are
dear Christian friends who lovethe Lord uh deeply and feel
trapped uh at times, and somehave just simply left uh the
vocation and gone on to.
You know, some have landed insome good church counseling
(04:29):
positions, you know, someprivate, newthetic sort of
counseling, biblical counseling,and so I appreciate those
opportunities for them.
But all that to say yes, I'veobserved in my lifetime and of
course it started well before mylifetime in the counseling
field this migration totherapeutic counseling to make
(05:05):
the person feel at peace withwho they are, as long as they
are not hurting someone,including themselves, and that's
the goal, as long as you're atpeace with yourself, not hurting
yourself, not hurting anybodyelse, job done.
And that of course, can be donewith drugs or, you know, with
(05:30):
the use, the help of drugs, orof course it can be a which
sometimes is necessary.
I'm not saying there arecertainly some issues,
biologically, physically, thatcertainly necessitates the use
of psychiatry, but I'm justsaying this is the mode, this is
(05:53):
the modus operandi of the wholesystem, and if they don't need
drugs, then they use concepts offreedom, concepts of self-love
of freedom, concepts ofself-love that oftentimes are
more akin to licentiousness, aremore akin to theologically
(06:16):
speaking self-delusion, wherethey adopt an identity that they
can affirm and they jettisonany voice or any conviction or
any guilt or any shame that isulterior to the identity that
(06:39):
they can live with in a peacefulmanner.
That's what I have seen incounseling for decades and
that's you know.
Granted, again, not everycounselor and lots of Christian
counselors that intertwine, evencarefully, they intertwine the
scripture and biblicalprinciples into their counseling
(07:03):
and some of them do a great joband they never run into any
lawsuits or or any pushback.
And it's a beautiful thing andand I'm a man, I'm thankful for
it because they they're allowedthe space to really help people
according to what I would thinkthe word of God would have them
help people.
And and again, it's not.
I'm not just talking aboutnewthetic biblical counselors
(07:25):
only.
There are certainly greatconcepts that we've learned from
psychology and philosophy.
Uh, and that's, that's a partof my.
My dissertation is wrestling iswrestling with, um, primitive
shame versus, uh, a matureunderstanding of shame?
Yeah, working with holdingright and attachment concepts
(07:55):
and how that relates to shame.
So that's I have to.
I've got to read, you know,that stuff and try to figure out
.
Okay, how do we address thisfrom a biblical, theological
space that validates, you know,the presence of a type of shame
(08:16):
where I can say it's a healthything, even though there is some
truth to the fact that there'sprimitive shame.
There is primitive shame that,if carried with you in a
narcissistic way, is veryunhealthy.
So it's, yeah.
(08:37):
So all that to say.
I agree with so much, but I dodisagree with a lot.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, yeah, and you know, you you made the point
there about the, the limitationsthat are being placed on, uh,
counselors who are Christian orwho have Christian counselor
settings and so on, and I thinkthere's been a shift in the last
two to three years of peopleacknowledging you know, even in
the secular world the importanceof the way that they'll say it
(09:07):
is, the importance of religionin a person's life.
So it's called religiosity,where the practices that you do
are helpful to your overallmental health, to your wellbeing
.
So, seeking out community,praying, having meals together,
all of these things that we doas part of the church that
they're seeing, yeah, thesethings are helpful and it makes
(09:28):
perfect sense when we thinkabout how God created us.
He created us for connection,for relationships, so all of
those things that may have beenpushed back a number of years
ago, it sounds like counselorsare starting to see that and
saying, hey, you know what?
There is something about thisthat contributes to a person's
overall mental health.
(09:49):
Again, for us, we see clients asa whole.
Right, it's not just physical,mental and emotional, but we see
the spiritual piece that peopleare trying to meet that need
through these various ways.
And a big push was, and Iactually did an episode with a
girl who came out of this Gosh.
(10:09):
Why is it escaping me?
Not the New Ages?
What am I thinking about?
Speaker 2 (10:14):
The cult.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Not the cult.
The buffet of religions thatpeople can turn to and pick and
choose from all these differentthings.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Oh okay, pluralism or something like that, yeah, yeah
.
Or something like that, yeah,yeah like new age spirituality.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
That's the word.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
So this new age spirituality where it's the way
that she described it was I likethis from this religion, I like
this from this religion, and soon, and I found out that at the
end of it it was empty, Becauseit was just doing certain
things to try to fill thisspiritual need that I had.
It was just doing certain thingsto try to fill this spiritual
need that I had until I foundJesus.
(10:49):
Was that need met right?
So where we can take thisconversation, I think, is when
we talk about the theologicalunderstanding're not addressing
the spiritual.
Then everything else is goingto be off right.
(11:12):
But in reality it seems thatpeople can be good in their
physical, mental and emotionaland be very off in their
spiritual being or the oppositeside.
They can be very good in theirspiritual being or the opposite
side.
They can be very good on theirspiritual side, and this is
maybe where you can add to thispart here, where they can be in
right relationship with God butmay also be struggling mentally,
(11:34):
emotionally and physicallyTotally.
Yeah, yeah, is there anythingto add to?
Speaker 2 (11:41):
that there's so much, there's so much meat there.
I mean we can.
We can go in hundreds ofdifferent directions.
Obviously there's a low-hangingfruit of chemical dependencies.
There's a Christian that is analcoholic, has been an alcoholic
, that might need chemical ordrug intervention to help them
(12:05):
get through, to get off thataddiction.
There might be the Christianthat struggles with
schizophrenia, that struggleswith obsessive compulsive
(12:26):
disorder.
Right, and yes, there areChristians out there and, man,
I'm sure you've got your ownfeelings and convictions about
this.
But there are Christians outthere that said, well, if
they're still struggling withobsessive compulsive disorder,
if they're still struggling withbipolar disorder, then they, to
(12:51):
your point, they haven't gottheir spirituality right, they
aren't truly a Christian.
Holy Spirit really isn'tabiding in them.
You hear that every now andthen from people and you're like
I think your bodies are a bitmore complex.
You know it's.
It's it's kind of like saying,oh did, did your, did your dad
get alzheimer's man?
(13:12):
I can't believe he lost hissalvation you know, because all
of a sudden it is.
he doesn't know who he is andhis body's not working right,
his mind's not working right.
Does that mean that now he'snot right spiritually?
Well, we would, most of uswould say, well, that's nonsense
, jason.
But Does that mean that nowhe's not right spiritually?
Well, most of us would say,well, that's nonsense, jason.
But in many ways that's whatwe're talking about with some of
these mental disabilities andbiological disabilities that
(13:37):
cause people to really struggleChristians, christians To really
struggle with these issues.
So, yeah, there's definitely aplace in my book for psychiatry.
Now do I think that drugs havebeen used in an improper way and
overused and the wrong drugsused to address symptoms?
(14:02):
And yeah, yes, yes, and that'sa whole problem.
But that doesn't mean that thedesire to try to use this
natural world to address thesepsychos, psychosomatic these,
these, these mental and physicalphysiological problems,
(14:25):
problems, is a bad thing.
I mean, again, that's likesaying, well, you know, they
need a blood transfusion, butman, it's just, it's not right
for us to actually put somebodyelse's blood inside that person.
You know and there are somereligions that believe that,
right, you know, and there aresome religions that believe that
(14:50):
, right, um, but I think youraverage christian would say,
let's, let's give that personsome blood, you know, okay, uh.
So, yeah, I definitely agree,uh, that counseling can serve,
does serve, um, to really comealongside of spiritual truths.
I really benefited.
Early on my dad got a hold of,and I don't know when he first
(15:11):
ran into it.
He ran into a guy named NeilAnderson and I don't know if
you've ever heard of NeilAnderson.
He was out of Talbot Seminary,yeah, that's right.
But Neil definitely did addressthe fact that we've we've got
body issues as well as mindissues as well, as you know.
(15:31):
So, uh, and early on, my dadhanded me a list of who I am in
Christ that Neil Anderson madeup of all the verses that said
all the things about who weliterally are, what God says
about who we are in Christ Jesus, and that list, the list of who
we are in Christ.
I read through that many timesin my life.
(15:56):
But get this, this is what myfather had me do when I was, uh,
I'd say maybe eight to tenyears old.
He had me speak into amicrophone this list of who I am
in christ, using pure scripture, and then on a tape recorder
and then listen to the tapeevery single night before I went
(16:19):
to bed.
Call that biofeedback right,and that's a psychological tool.
Um, it's a.
Sometimes it's a counselingmethodology.
Um, but my dad had me listen tomyself staying the scriptures
of who I am in christ everynight.
For, I mean, I did it probablyfor a at least six months or so.
(16:43):
How was that for you?
I've never struggled with who Iam in Jesus.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Have I felt shame when you were going through the
stage where you were rebellingagainst the Lord?
Speaker 2 (16:58):
No, even when I was rebelling, I felt ashamed for
what I was doing and felt guiltyabout it.
But then I would confess thesin and just do it again the
next day.
But I never doubted my identityin Christ.
Maybe I should have right, butI didn't.
(17:23):
And so when, when I, when Ireally became repentant, I had
all of these things happen to me, my girlfriend, who I thought I
was going to marry, broke upwith me.
I was going in the Marine Corps.
I went to officer candidateschool in Quantico.
(17:44):
I had some run-ins with theleadership there.
I wrote a bad check at a bar.
Before I left, my mom called meand told me that there was a
warrant out for my arrest, youknow.
So I'm sitting in the middle of,and my father was dying of
cancer at the time.
And so I'm at Quantico, I'maway, I'm in a horrible
(18:06):
environment.
It's very difficult, it's verylonely, it's hard.
And I had all these thingsgoing on around me and I broke
down and I was alone and I readthe word of God alone in the
barracks for the first time in along time, when everybody else
(18:26):
was off in Washington DC for theweekend because they got to go
and I was being disciplined formy activities and so I couldn't
go and I was alone and I readthe word of God and I felt
convicted in that moment that Iwas not being who I was supposed
to be.
So it was kind of a firstbreakthrough, if you will, of
(18:51):
shame, real shame, conviction,real conviction, real exposure.
And then I went back home, I gotout of there, I left the Marine
home, I got out of there, Ileft the Marine Corps, I got out
of there and I was at a men'sconference the spring semester
of my senior year 1998.
(19:13):
Uh, and it was some of theseguys Rick Rigsby, I don't know
if you know any of these guys,some of these guys are still
going, they're still speaking atThomas road Baptist, at
conferences periodically.
But it was a men's conferenceand I sat in the stadium with
all these men and these guys,one after another, were getting
up that wrote books on how to bea man and repentance and sin,
(19:37):
and I felt this enormous stingcome over me.
And again I had been sleeping,I'd been fornicating, I had been
being a drunk, abusive, and Ihad already walked away from the
Marine Corps and I'd alreadystarted to change my activities
(19:59):
but I still hadn't kind of bornethe weight of who I'd been
being to, I think, the degreethat I needed to own it and I
went back to my I took, I leftthe conference and went back to
my dorm and I got on the phonewith my parents and I started
bawling, weeping, and I just, Ijust said mom, dad, I have, I
(20:22):
have been slandering your, ourname, um, I have been dragging
our name through the mud and Ihave been not the man I was
supposed to be and the Christian.
So I'm weeping uncontrollablyand that was my moment of
(20:45):
contrition and it was shame thatled to that contrition I
appreciate you sharing thatbrother yeah it sounds like, uh,
your shame.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
I guess one part speaks to the level of interest
you have in it.
And then there's this realpowerful part of your story that
ties into that as well, totallyyeah um, you know, I'm curious
what you think about people whogrew up christian homes as well
yeah and maybe had shamingparents maybe not in the way
(21:19):
that you described.
Like you know, we talked in ourfirst episode of how we do that
with our kids at times, but theshaming maybe of that example
you gave of the restaurant whereyou mess everything up.
You're good for nothing.
You know the Lord can't love youbecause A, b and C, you know
girl, the daughter gets pregnantat age 14, 15, and you know
you're good for nothing.
You're brushing and shamingthings right, and that person
(21:43):
comes into the counseling officeand they have this level of
shame.
Their experience with shame isone of.
This is who I am and themessaging is strong and this is
where, from a biblicalperspective, we know what the
Bible teaches about that, aboutthem being you.
If they come to know the Lord,they repent, but they still have
(22:04):
these ongoing thoughts andfeelings about shame in general
and feelings about shame ingeneral, and the number one
predictor or contributor to aclient's growth is their
experience with a counselor.
One of the main reasons why I dothe work that I do is that God
provides these opportunities tomeet people where they are and
(22:26):
have them have a differentexperience, a corrective
experience, than that that theyhave with their parents.
So this aspect they come in withthis level of I'm this, I'm
that, and I'm not only sharingthe opposite of that message,
but the experience that theyhave with me in the session of
compassion, loving graciousness,what the Lord has done in my
(22:49):
life.
Hopefully, presenting there inthe session is what starts to
bring about some of that shamefrom maybe some traumatic
experience that they had growingup.
Is that something that you seeevidence in the scriptures?
Scriptures there's so manypeople and obviously, reading
(23:11):
through scriptures, there's somany people that by today's
terms, and maybe even as youlook and you're like wow, that
was traumatic that we would saythat was a traumatic instance
and we don't get the story ofwhat that process was like for
them.
We just know kind of what theend result was.
Paul was probably someone whodealt with a lot of traumatic
memories from what he did toChristians, right.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yeah, he had PTSD from everything.
He had PTSD from everything.
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Joseph, you know, being sold and enslaved by his
brother.
So all of these examples thatwe see in Scripture, we don't
see the process of that, and Ithink that's one of the things I
had to wrestle with a lot isthat all we see is okay, here's
what they went through and thenthe Lord showed up in this way.
But that middle ground a lot ofpeople struggle with that
because they want that resultthat the Lord shows up and the
(24:02):
ups and downs to get therecauses doubt and confusion for
them, and that's part of mewalking with them.
How would you explain thatprocess?
Because that is what we see, ordo you see something different?
Speaker 2 (24:15):
No, man, I just I'm so fortunate.
I am so fortunate I had amother that really helped me
understand God's grace.
My father preached God's graceand he certainly understood
God's grace, but he was not agreat interpersonal communicator
(24:39):
.
His father was a drunkard, hismother was abusive.
He came from the wrong side ofthe tracks.
He just had a really hard, hardupbringing.
His father would go, lose thepaycheck and gambling card game
and my dad would have to, as ateenager, go back into the card
(25:00):
game, win his father's paycheckback, take it back home.
Just a hard, hard environment.
All that to say, my fatherdidn't necessarily have the good
one-on-one help me walk throughsome of the interpersonal,
(25:20):
emotional, psychologicalstruggles as a teenager and as
an adolescent that I would haveliked, but my mother actually
did Right.
Adolescent that I would haveliked, but my mother actually
did Right.
And so one of the wonderfulthings my mom did with me early
on as a child when I had a heavy, I got saved.
(25:40):
When I was five and I would saythat again, a lot of my story is
having a very heavy consciencefrom a very early age and the
Holy Spirit was with me, talkingto me, convicting me, and I
just could not get away withanything in myself.
I would go and confess, confess, confess.
(26:04):
And there were times when I waslike Mom, I'm doing this again,
I'm doing this again, does Godreally forgive me?
Does God really forgive me?
And I'm like Mom, I'm doingthis again, I'm doing this again
.
Does God really forgive me?
Does God really forgive me?
And I'm like, I mean, I'm likesix years old, seven years old,
and my mom said, jason, let's goin the kitchen, let's sit on
the floor.
And she said write all of yoursins on a piece of paper.
And so I wrote them.
And then she brought out thisbowl and she brought out a
(26:27):
lighter and she just lit them toflame and burned all those
pieces of paper in front of me.
She says, jason, that's whatthese are to God, right?
So I had a mother that helpedme to in some ways disassociate
my identity in Christ from mypast sins, if that makes sense,
(26:53):
yeah, right, yeah, so I'm not,I'm not, I'm not.
I was taught by my parents tonot carry my, my sins, with me
in my identity.
Now, that's not to say thatthey didn't say stuff like jason
, there you go again.
You know, or you know, you're,you're.
You just can't shut your mouth,can you?
(27:15):
you know, you know, of course Iget, I've got a bit of that
right, but when it came down tothose really deeply, um,
internal struggles, uh, onissues of sin, my, my mom, uh,
my father, gave me the biblicallanguage, taught me scripture,
gave me the verses, and my momgave me a bit of the psychology,
(27:40):
if you will, to help me to walk.
And so when I talk toindividuals and counsel them,
young men, I disciple a lot ofyoung men.
I am walking them through thescriptures, I'm showing them
that the scriptures identify thefact that they are sinners.
(28:00):
They're still going to sinperiodically.
They might even sin more, youknow, a lot more than they want
to.
However, if their faith is inChrist and they truly have
(28:26):
repented and believed, they havea new identity, deal with the
complexity of that old sinnature and the consequences of
that sin that they dip and diveback into, while they are
(28:46):
seeking to conform moreperfectly in their actions and
in their patterns and behaviorsto their identity that is fixed
and secured in Christ Jesus.
So that's a complex, you knowit's clearly a complex answer
because you've got multipleidentities that you're dealing
(29:09):
with.
Because you've got multipleidentities that you're dealing
with, you've got who you are inChrist and then who you were and
who you have a tendency tostill be and act upon on the
daily.
(29:29):
That the Bible gives you andthat a counselor can give you,
that a community ofaccountability can give you, to
try and continue to conform moreperfectly to the image of
Christ Jesus.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah, absolutely, brother, absolutely.
And you were 5'6 at this stage,when you're being taught these
things.
And I think the other importantpiece of this is that there are
these stages of life that we gothrough that show us different
aspects of god's character,different experiences, right?
So when you become a teenager,I remember, just to show my, my
(30:06):
sister, I was like um, I think Iwas like listening to this
music and it was like it wouldcost and all these things.
And I told her you know, Irecommitted my life to christ.
I think I was like 12, no, Iwas like 15 or something.
And I told her you want to seehow committed I am?
and I grabbed all my cds andjust broke them like here's how
committed I am, so trying toshow all these things, because
in that time I felt convictedabout that and I felt like she
(30:29):
was judging me, like you're notreally a good example to me.
I'm the oldest of four, soyou're not really being a good
example, and in my teenage mindthat for me was a level of
commitment.
But then it felt fake becausethen I went right back to it.
I still liked it and I feltguilty about it.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
So all of these things, these different stages
of life that just show usdifferent aspects of who god is
and how he shows up in thosemoments, and our little
commitment yeah, no, I, I getthat with young guy, with young,
young college students, guysand girls that I've, I've, I've
counseled in my role as ateacher and just discipling.
Um, I was saved at seven.
(31:10):
Uh, things were good, went off,I was in high school and got it
with the wrong crowd and I hadsex and I started doing drugs or
man, I got into pornography and, uh, man, mr gwen, I just uh, I
don't, I don't think I'm saved,I don't and I'm saved and I'm
(31:30):
like right, let's walk throughthis, you know, to your point.
Because the mistake in myopinion and of course sometimes
they're certainly, I'm suresometimes they're not actually
saved yeah, let's just get thatout of the way but oftentimes
they most certainly are.
They most certainly are aChristian.
(31:52):
The Spirit of God mostcertainly abides in them.
The mistake is, I reached adifferent phase of life and I
didn't know how to control myflesh.
I didn't have the resources toaddress the temptation sources,
(32:13):
to address the temptation.
I wasn't mature enough, didn'thave the community of support to
help me to walk my faith intothis new place in life.
I had never experienced thepower of that particular type of
temptation before and I gave in, and I gave in and I gave in
and now I don't think that Iever was saved, because I'm
giving into this temptation thatI had never experienced when I
(32:36):
was young and when I was withChrist, when I was a Christian,
when I was a good Christian andI truly believed or I truly was
faithful.
But this must mean maybe I'mnot a Christian after all.
So these stages of life arehuge when it comes to emotional
(33:01):
health, psychological health andspiritual health and how they
all blend together and determinethe thought life for a lot of
people.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Yeah, absolutely.
And you know we talked aboutthe stages of life and the part
where identity really starts toget formed in the life of a
person really starts in thatadolescent age.
You know, where we're reachingfor different things to see who
we identify with, who's ourgroup, who's not.
So one of the things I thinkthat I see in practice,
(33:33):
especially when we talk aboutidentity, trauma, shame and all
these different things, is it'sduring that period of
adolescence where children arereaching out for different
things, different groups, tofind their identity, and a big
part of that is the parent'srole within that.
And whatever is going on inthat time for that child is the
(33:54):
message that they're getting,whether it be indirectly or
directly, right.
So, for example, the dynamic haschanged a lot in our culture
around the presence of parentswithin the home.
So when both parents areworking outside of the home and
children get home and there's noone there, there's this belief
(34:14):
that creeps in that I'm notreally cared for.
I kind of have to fend formyself.
Mom and dad are doing whatthey're doing and that's just
what they have to do, butthere's this element of neglect.
Right, that's how it'sperceived at an experiential
level for a lot of thesestudents.
So, yeah, so that's changed theconversation a lot.
(34:38):
So one of the things that'sbeen hard for me as a Christian
counselor is how do I deal withthat dynamic that they bring
into, this feeling of beingneglected?
Even though that may not bewhat the parents wanted to
communicate, that is what theyunderstood from it.
So it's hard because you're notdenying the experience but at
the same time, you're trying tohelp them understand, maybe,
(34:58):
some of the realities thathappen in life and it's hard.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
No, it is.
Yeah, again, I don't need tosay this in a pejorative way,
but the victim mindset is huge,it's huge and it is taken over,
at least.
And if there's, if there's amovement away from it.
You know, praise, praise, god,um, but the?
But psychologists got andcounselors got so used to
(35:27):
looking for the victim in everypatient.
Yeah, yeah, I would agree withthat.
And is there, is there anotherside to that?
Is there, is there the pastor,or the Sunday school teacher or
the parent that looks for, youknow, the criminal on every
child?
Sure, yeah, and, and this, thisis where counseling comes into
(35:51):
play.
Right To work with people thathave been banged up, by people
that didn't articulate thegospel with compassion and
balance.
But, yeah, the counselingpsychology industry has just
been looking for and validatingevery ounce of the victim that
(36:15):
they can find.
And that, I think, ultimately,is probably what?
Because this started decadesago.
Yeah, um, that's probably whatreally started this whole
anti-shame movement, becauseshame is inherently tied to
(36:37):
victim and if you treat thevictim in the wrong way or
ignore the fact that they are avictim, then you are inherently
shaming them and it makes thevictim feel bad.
It doesn't help them to comeout of their hurt and their pain
(37:00):
and into a flourishing life,and we want to create safe
spaces where the victims willnever be shamed, and we want to
create school systems where theidentity that they have chosen,
where they can be at peace withthemselves and not hurt anybody,
(37:23):
is that has to be protectedfrom any ounce of something that
would make them feel ashamed,which is impossible, which, of
course, is impossible, I meanone of the ways you know you
mentioned.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
I don't know if it's moving away from the victim
mindset, but there is a lot ofresearch on the topic of
resilience and that is a spacewhere, at least for me and a
number of other Christiancounselors where there's this
focus of okay, well, okay, youwent through that, you're here
today, how did you get throughthat?
And you're here today.
(38:00):
And that's the focus, asopposed to what maybe secular
accounts may focus on is thatwas so horrible?
And maybe they keep them inthat mindset.
As a matter of fact, they'veeven done research on what
brings healing is not talkingabout the past.
It's using that understanding tobehave or to start implementing
(38:21):
certain behaviors now to changethe narrative, moving forward
right yeah and you need to focuson what kept you resilient
throughout that time and infaith communities, it's you know
what for me it was.
When this happened with myparents, the church really came
and supported, uh me throughoutthat process.
They were there for me.
I got involved in awana.
(38:41):
I had a great, you know, youthpastor.
Whatever the case is, there'sthese aspects of how the church
helps people cope with thosedifficulties and that becomes
the focus, and this is againgoes back to the idea of how
does faith play a role in mentalhealth, exactly like we're
talking about it Usually,through community, the influence
of a mentor, someone involvedin the process that helps them
(39:04):
through that stage of life,discipleship, right, we see that
in Scripture as well.
So I just love that that hasbecome part of the conversation
now, because it is somethingthat we need to focus on.
We can't focus on that victimmentality because, again, that
just keeps people in that stateof mind.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
Yeah, the end game of resiliency and I do.
Yeah, I've heard of that andI've looked into it a little bit
.
I think so much of that isintuitive to scripture, right?
Um, and?
And it's that balance that Iwas talking about earlier.
It's the balance of jasonyou're a sinner, you're broken
(39:43):
and you're gonna do sinfulthings.
However, in christ, you're anew creation and old things have
passed away and all things havebecome new and you are given,
via the Holy Spirit, the meansto act upon this new person that
you are.
Yes, it's hard, yes, it takestime to learn.
(40:05):
Romans 12, 1 and 2, like do notconform any longer to the
pattern, pattern this world.
Be transformed by the renewingof your mind.
Then you'll be able to test andimprove.
What god's will is is good,pleasing, perfect will, right.
So it's in the text where wehave an old person who is bent
towards sin, destruction, uh,selfishness, egotistical
(40:31):
ambition, whatever the case,self-preservation at the expense
of others.
We have that person with us,but we have this as a Christian,
this new creation, and we needto work on renewing our mind
about how that new creation seesthings, how he acts on things,
(40:54):
how he loves things and peopleand how he approaches life and
how he approaches pain, how heapproaches offense and being
insulted right.
And this is where I say the endgame.
The end game of resiliency, inmy opinion, is getting that
(41:19):
person that has now recognizedchurch as being a part of their
coping and has recognized churchas a part of their formative
and has recognized church as apart of their formative safe
place to grow and to be affirmedin the right things.
The endgame is to get them tothe point where they don't need
(41:43):
that constant affirmation andthey don't view the church for
what it can give to them ideallyand primarily, but they view it
as the place where god hascalled them to serve and to
minister and to be available, uh, and to and and and to be
(42:06):
taught and to glean right.
Because all too often when avictim-mindsetted person leans
over and grabs the church asthat safe place that just
ministers to them and doesn'tharm them, then they see the
(42:27):
church that way, and when aviolation comes in, as it most
certainly always does, givenenough time, then their
association of their pain comesback to the church Right, and
the church is no longer thatsafe place anymore, and so the
end game is to help them getbeyond that.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Yeah, the focus that you were mentioning there seems
to be on what is self-servingand not what is ultimately going
to be.
What can I give to others?
Based off what I received fromthe church, because I think I
encounter more, especially forthose who grew up in the church.
They have a good understandingof their fallen nature, their
(43:11):
wretchedness, of their sinfulacts.
They have a good understanding.
What they have a difficult timeunderstanding is grace,
patience and love.
Like they, because they usuallygrow with parents who are a
little bit more the harsher ormore critical side.
Like they get it.
Like that makes sense.
No, this is the Bible.
The Bible teaches this and that.
(43:33):
That was me right.
But having a hard timeunderstanding what grace and
patience and love is becausethat's seen as weak or it's seen
as, oh, you're justifyingsomeone's behavior because
you're not addressing the rootissue.
But no, someone's behaviorbecause you're not addressing
the root issue.
But no, it's this newexperience with people from the
(43:53):
church or a specific person thatshows a different side of God's
character.
You're already very well awareof your fallenness and sometimes
overemphasizing that keeps youstuck in it.
So when you experience gracefrom someone else and patience
and love now, it's like, okay,this is new for me, but I still
understand my fallenness.
But now I'm understanding.
This new aspect of God'scharacter is like that he still
(44:15):
loves me, right, and that's thehard part that people have those
who grew up in the church.
Now, those who did not grow upin the church they've lived
their life they think you know,well, you know God's going to
accept me anyways.
They come to the Lord and theyrealize, oh no, I got to change
(44:36):
my life around.
This is not pleasing to theLord.
So for them, the hard part, forthem to accept that first is
all these new ways of livinglife, of giving of myself to
other people.
Well, people hurt me, why wouldI give to?
Speaker 2 (44:44):
them.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Well, that's kind of part of being self-sacrificial.
That's what Jesus did for usand so on.
So it really comes down to atleast the way that it's
approached in my setting is whatdoes the client need?
And if they receive thatmessage of always, of just being
a sinful, wretched person, thenwhat they're gonna need in the
(45:06):
counseling session is how theyexperienced me as a counselor,
with the grace, mercy,compassion, peace, and hopefully
the goal is that they find abalance between those two, cause
you usually have people oneither side either all justice,
all wrath, all you know, fire,brimstone and then you have over
here all grace, all love, allmercy and no judgment.
(45:27):
Right, it's trying to helpeither one see the other side
and find a balance in that, intheir yeah I just these days,
sam, I just don't run into thatfire and brimstone.
Speaker 2 (45:40):
I can't remember the last time I did.
Yeah, you know, I'm sure I'm.
It's probably out there incertain denominations.
Speaker 1 (45:46):
You see more of the other side now.
Like the more grace thateverything passed non-judgmental
oh yeah, totally in theevangelical churches.
Speaker 2 (45:54):
I have not seen this highly judgmental fire and
brimstone thing.
I don't know for years.
Speaker 1 (46:03):
Yeah, why do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
again because they've adopted therapeutic psychology.
Speaker 1 (46:08):
That's true, they have become and which drives me
nuts.
By the way, I hate when, fromthe pulpit Again, because
they've adopted therapeuticpsychology.
That's true, they have become,which drives me nuts.
By the way, I hate when, fromthe pulpit, pastors are trying
to teach pop psychology.
That's the approach.
Just teach the scriptures, man,stick to your lane.
But they're trying to approachall these principles.
Talk in psychology, leave thatseparate.
Speaker 2 (46:29):
That's my perspective on it yeah, but, and again, you
have to remember that, uh,these things have woven
themselves into systematictheology and they've been done.
They've done so for the past 100years.
So we're not, we're not talkingabout, necessarily, just about,
(46:50):
uh, you know, winnicott holding,and, and, and we're not talking
about these stages of life thatappeared, um, uh, you know, in
the, in in the last 50 years,although you know that's
certainly a part of it.
We're talking about Kierkegaardand we're talking about Hegel,
(47:12):
and we're talking about a lot ofother postmodern philosophers
that have been feedingtheologians, that have been
teaching pastors in theirseminaries for over 100 years
now on these issues of identity,on these issues of how do you
(47:35):
address sin, and the pastor andthe youth minister and the
biblical counselor are just asconcerned about making their
parishioners feel good as thecounselor is, to bringing peace
to them, as the counselor is,and and and, of course, yes, um,
(48:01):
the counselor, god willing, hasgone to school for it, and at
least they're experts in theparticular, supposed to be in
that particular ideology andfield.
And so, yeah, the youthminister might think he
understands some things, or thepastor might think he
understands some thingsclinically that he doesn't
actually understand.
But there's enough integrationof what we would call liberal
(48:24):
theology that has been informedby German idealism, right that
you know you're going to getthese understandings of the
therapeutic reality in ourchurches and in our small groups
and in our church, our pastor'soffices.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
Yeah, yeah, it almost seems like it's so much right
Because both of them are dealingwith the person.
Both fields are, and one, atleast from a pastor perspective,
it seems it's morecongregational, more community,
and with a counselor it'sindividual.
I feel like a lot of timespastors are just so overwhelmed
with all the other stuff goingon within the church that to
(49:08):
really actually walk withsomeone through something, uh,
it's, it's too much right.
And that's where I advocate alot for, you know, for those of
us who are counselors in thefield and have a christian
worldview, that's, you know, weneed to be able to be there for
that.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
And, yeah, good resources good churches, yeah,
good churches with you know.
You know, for those that holdto the normal model, that are
successful oftentimes, willbring on a pastoral counseling
minister and have them on staff,and that's a beautiful thing.
But you're right, a lot ofpastors feel indebted to speak
(49:51):
to the victimhood of all oftheir parishioners.
Yeah, because what, sam, whatthe average Christian in the
United States has been told forthe last several decades, is, if
the good news doesn't speak toyour victimhood, it's not good
(50:12):
news.
And so if you're a pastorattempting to convince your
congregation that you've gotgood news to them and that the
Bible is good news, you've gotto convince yourself through
study and through maybe adoptingsome ideology and reading up
(50:33):
some books, and you've got toconvince your congregation that
the gospel speaks directly tothe victimhood that is being
addressed constantly in our dayand time.
Yeah, yeah, in our day and time.
Yeah, yeah, and you're right,there are tragic consequences to
(50:55):
that that were never intended,but they are realities.
Speaker 1 (50:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (50:58):
Right.
Speaker 1 (51:01):
That's good, Bro.
We could keep on going.
Speaker 2 (51:04):
We could talk forever .
Speaker 1 (51:06):
No, I appreciate you so much, bro.
This has been a greatconversation.
I think we've got some threesolid episodes here.
Obviously, there's always morethat we can discuss.
Hopefully in the future we canlink up again and have some more
conversations.
Speaker 2 (51:22):
You bet, but thank you for your time.
Speaker 1 (51:23):
Thank you, sam.
I know the audience is going toreally appreciate these
conversations, so thank you,brother, god willing, those of
you who are listening.
Thanks for tuning in and I'llsee you next time.
Popular Podcasts
NFL Daily with Gregg Rosenthal
Gregg Rosenthal and a rotating crew of elite NFL Media co-hosts, including Patrick Claybon, Colleen Wolfe, Steve Wyche, Nick Shook and Jourdan Rodrigue of The Athletic get you caught up daily on all the NFL news and analysis you need to be smarter and funnier than your friends.
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com