February 14, 2024 • 46 mins
Send Me Questions on Attachment
When the weight of addiction intersects with the strength of faith, an intense and deeply personal battle emerges. This is the journey my colleague, Lewis Alvey, and I navigate in our latest God Attachment Healing Podcast. Lewis, a mental health professional with over a decade of experience, joins me in a conversation that peels back the layers of shame and isolation that often plague Christians grappling with addiction. Together, we shed light on the complexities of recovery, from the recognition of the problem to the hopeful steps toward transformation, all within the framework of our spiritual beliefs.
The path to overcoming addiction is rarely walked alone, and our discussion reveals the importance of community and connection—elements that can be as healing as they are vital. We delve into the role of various support groups and the potential for church communities to extend a hand in this journey. The raw and honest experiences we share underscore the emotional toll addiction takes, not just on the afflicted but also on the family and friends who stand by them. Their stories of perseverance and compassion become powerful testaments to the human spirit and the transformative power of hope.
As we wrap up, we take a moment to reflect on the broader implications of our dialogue, the intersection of forgiveness, redemption, and the gospel's message of grace. It's a reminder that these tough conversations, while challenging, are necessary and can ultimately lead to healing. For anyone touched by addiction or seeking solace in faith, this episode stands as a beacon of understanding and encouragement, inviting listeners to find strength in vulnerability and renewal in their faith journey with us.
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My mission is to help you understand your attachment style to learn how you can heal from the pain you’ve experienced in your relationship with God, the church and yourself.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Alright, everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
As you know, we have beenmaking a couple of changes not
big changes, but just some newdirection when I introduce the
podcast.
I'm especially blessed todaybecause I have my good friend,
lewis Alvey.
Lewis is my neighbor, is mycoworker and is my friend.
(00:28):
We are talking today aboutaddictions and classmate.
That's right.
We just there's another part oflife that you can do, that's
true.
Yeah.
So and now podcast guests Lookat this.
We're looking for all of thoseconnections.
So I like it.
So I'm excited about today'spodcast because we're talking
(00:50):
about faith and addictions and Idon't think I've done a podcast
on this.
So when I was thinking about Ithink we were having a
conversation and it came upsomething about addictions and I
was like you know what?
We never really talked aboutthat and I've never had anyone
and that's one of your passions.
And I said, well, we alreadytalk enough anyways, why don't
(01:11):
we just record it and put it outon the podcast?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
right, so it makes sense You'll have a lot of
editing ahead of you, ourconversations meander and go.
I enjoy them, but I don't knowthat it's clean material for
podcasts.
It will be.
It will be good, yeah, yeah,you know.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
So, louis, why don't you tell us the audience, a
little bit about your background?
We're going to talk aboutaddictions, so the audience
likes to know, okay, who are wetalking to?
And there we know someinformation, my personal
relationship with you.
But now how can you introduceyourself to the audience?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Hi audience.
I'm Louis Sam's neighbor Now soI guess professional kind of
resume leading up to thisentered the mental health field,
been in the cat back kind ofcapacity for the past.
I think it's over 15 years nowwell yeah, in various and I'll
say coming into like a calladdictions, I was reluctant
(02:07):
right I was like I kept feelinga pole but I had other ideas for
myself professionally and butearly on was it was in some ways
heavy handed, pushed in thatdirection.
But then was one of thoseexperiences where it resonated
with me and then, once I saw it,and I saw it prevalence of it
as well.
I couldn't unsee it, and so nowfor good or bad.
(02:29):
Most of the way I approachmental health is through that
lens of addiction right.
And the things it has, like avery familiar peer recovery
program would say, the Hertzhabits and hangups.
And so my catchphrase, which Iprobably stole from Steve
Nielsen, dr Nielsen's amazingguy yeah was everybody's got
(02:50):
something right, and so whetherit's a DSM recognized and
cluster of criteria that we candiagnose, or if it's something
that we elevate to levels ofhigher importance or consume
more of our kind of cognitivebandwidth and that's, I think, a
theme I'll come back to alittle bit there is something
(03:11):
that that we do.
Then how I tie that in and howI understand that kind of from a
faith or spiritual aspect isCalvin was our hearts are
perpetual idol factories right,yeah.
And so in my mind, again that's,I see that, especially in our
field, as being true and true tothis idea of addictions, or
everybody's got something thatthey, maybe they're holding on
(03:34):
to or maybe they're againelevating to a place and level
of importance and it's taking upmore of their time and capacity
than we know as Christians atall.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, and it really does.
At least it feels like too manypeople struggle with addiction,
that it controls their lives,right, it really dictates a lot
of what they do.
And I'm just curious because Idon't think I've necessarily
maybe asked this particularquestion, but typically when we
go into the counseling field, wehave a hard for an area where
we ourselves have experiencedhurt, or where someone close to
(04:06):
us has experienced hurt, or justsomething where our skills line
up well with meeting that thatneed.
So for you, when you thinkabout addictions, like was there
, is there a personal backgroundstory there, with someone
addicted to something or how didyour heart Well?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
I think we all have our addiction, so but, I didn't
learn that.
To the other end, in my lesserChristlike moment when I was
entering into the field foringinto psychology, I said I just
want to understand what peoplethink.
I want to understand why we dothe things that we do.
And at the time a lot of thatfor me was well, I want to dive
heavy into psychologicalresearch.
(04:45):
When do a lot of these type ofthings and I think God had and
allowed that in my heart, thatdesire which I would argue is
ungodly at the time because itwas a lot of pride baked into
that I want to know Ultimatelyto show well, this is, this is
how that looks.
Yes.
This and through the model ofaddiction that I relate here
closely to, I think it makes, ithelps me understand, and I
(05:10):
think when I interact withpeople and we share that space
together, it helps give them agreater understanding of as well
.
Well, that's why I'm here.
Also, I can recognize I'm stuckand these are the contributing
factors to why I'm being stuck.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, and you know, for Christians I don't know if
it's a different layer Do yousee a difference between how
Christians manage addictionsversus those who are not
Christian?
You know, we work.
We work in a Christian setting,but it seems like there's maybe
little difference between howboth Christians and
non-Christians manage addictionsor deal with addictions.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
I'll say, and I'm sure we'll come back to this as
well that's a trait, or yeah, ofChristians with addiction is
excessive.
Shame, right, because there's.
I should be better than this,or even questioning faith.
I can't possibly be a Christianand have these things, these
(06:11):
attachments, this misalignedaffection you know, so, if
anything, I'm not sayingChristians are worse off, right.
I'm saying that that that conconcept of shame, the things
that surround that, I think aremore prevalent maybe, or maybe
even more intense in religiouscircles, and that's.
(06:33):
I think it does come down tothe individual, as you know, and
so much of what group orculture they're in and what
their faith and their, theirbelief system, kind of how it
addresses that.
So in all of the upbringing tolike what was I taught that?
How does God look at these you?
know, these kind of things soyeah all of that goes into it,
(06:57):
but I think, unfortunately, butthen also I know there's such
redeeming qualities about aswell.
I don't want to make it soundlike it's just you know, those
poor Christian addicts, but yeah, that that heavy component of
shame oftentimes accompanies oris more maybe intense or
prevalent with Christians asthey're struggling with their
addiction.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
That's true, yeah, yeah.
And you know, when I wasthinking about this particular
episode, I was thinking aboutwhat verses are there that we've
referenced that are true, butmaybe some people have a hard
time understanding.
And I thought about secondCorinthians 517, and the verse
basically is right being a newcreation.
If there's anyone in Christ,therefore, he's a new creation.
(07:36):
All things have passed away,behold, all things have become
new.
And there's that, that element.
And I feel it sounds like withChristians who are addicted to
something kind of have thatshame based approach because,
well, if I'm a Christian,shouldn't all of this be passed
away?
Right, shouldn't this be allgone?
And you know, it's interestingtoo, because with Christians who
(08:02):
grew up in the church, it seemslike they have that struggle
and that shame much more dynamicand stronger in their lives.
Those who maybe come to Lordafterwards, they now experience
Christ in a new way.
So everything that they've doneprior to their relationship
with Christ, it seems to greatlydiminish once they come to
(08:26):
Christ.
And I don't know if you've seenthat I grew up in the church, so
I know that those who grew upin there there's a standard that
they're called to live by.
Hey, you've been given more towho much is given, much is
expected.
So they kind of have thisnarrative of I need to keep that
going.
So when they mess up, it's allon the worst ever, with new
believers who maybe come to theLord later down the line.
(08:49):
For them it's that was my life,I was it, I was all of these
things, and now the Lord haschanged me.
So then you could see that 180,but I don't know, have you seen
that?
Is there a difference?
Speaker 3 (09:00):
there that you also the former expert in the field
that I like to quote the most.
I mean to my wife right.
Yeah, in the mental health fieldprior to me she would 100%
agree with that.
Like she says that there is,there are things that are
attached, or again thisOftentimes unhealthy belief
system that comes with peoplethat have grown up Christian
(09:22):
advice, someone who Was saved inan older age, maybe in their
teens or early adulthood, andespecially saved out of
addiction, because they have adifferent, I think, perspective
or a perspective on Freedom andgrace.
Right, because, again I was, Iwas completely lost and until I
was plucked from that until myeyes were open.
(09:43):
I was you know, no chance in theworld of going to heaven and no
chance in the world of a lot ofthings especially.
With all the overlaying Kind ofoutlook that a lot of people
with addiction have.
So I'll quote Amanda and say,yeah, she would absolutely be.
In some ways From our talksabout this she sees it as being
(10:07):
more hopeful, right, like therecan be more hope and more
Radical acceptance of that grace.
Whereas yeah, someone who has.
I feel like I'm talking aboutgrowing up in a Christian
household like baggage, and Idon't mean it that way saying
some of those things youarticulated that are baked in
that we can't.
We have a hard time reconcilingyeah, they can't.
(10:29):
I think it can make it muchmore complicated and Make it
more difficult in some ways, hmm, to understand and really
embrace that freedom.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Embrace, yeah, absolutely, and you know to your
point about Not looking at thatpast or growing up in a
Christian home being seen asbaggage, because there's a lot
of pros to it.
But I think the cons aredifferent.
They're still there.
You know it's not perfect andyou know I would say that I grew
up in mostly a healthyChristian church.
But as I got older I start tounderstand things differently
(10:59):
and I just didn't know how to,how, to see myself not meeting
the standard.
So it was this expectation of Ineed to be this way and if I
wasn't, I was just a completefailure.
So I think that's kind ofspeaks to the shame component
that we've been discussing butultimately correct me from wrong
.
Addiction is about coping withthe stressor.
Or is there more to it, right?
(11:21):
So if I'm addicted to something, I'm using that to cope with
the pain, with some form ofstress, and if it's been my
go-to for years and years andyears, which is typically kind
of what happens, then why wouldI let go of something that's
helped me cope with thestressors of life?
But what is addiction?
That's just kind of I was gonnatry to get back to you and say,
(11:43):
yeah, well work, your licensedclinical mental health
practitioners.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
So when we go to our diagnostic manual, where do you
find the word addiction?
We don't right, so not thatthat's wrong.
I think some people think of itas an antiquated term.
I think it's very.
It can be helpful and healthyin a lot of ways to give life.
Yeah, yeah, but DSM 5 we're now5 TR Is going to use different
(12:10):
use disorders.
Well, so we'll say whatchemicals specifically.
Yeah so substance use disordersand then specified alcohol, you
know opioids different thingslike that and and I think that
there's utility in that criteria, so I'm not in one camp or the
other.
I think there's a lot that wecan Utilize and it is helpful
for us to do so.
We'll start with Diagnosticcriteria from the manual and
(12:31):
those fall into.
We can yeah, if I can, if I can, a clean real quick.
It's.
It has a lot to do with levelof impairment of your
functioning and From then tryingto our to figure out how to
articulate that, because youknow when you're with a client
that they could read the DSM ifthey wanted to.
(12:52):
Yeah, so how do we break thisinto?
Maybe?
an analogy or something that'shelpful.
I look at like we have Cognitiveand emotional bandwidth right
like you do the internet'scouldn't come through a cable
and that bandwidth is taken upby different things throughout
any given day, and so, asdifferent areas of that
(13:14):
bandwidth are consumed again,areas of functioning
Relationships, things like that,those are the criteria through
which we look at the severity ofthe what we'd call addiction,
or we'll stay with substances,substance use disorder.
So it appears things like ourrelationships, our ability to
find and hold occupations, legalright that's, and that's a
(13:37):
helpful one too, because we do,as a society, have a legal like
A legal system with laws andthings in place, and it can be
helpful in that.
That's a whole.
I could go off on a whole otherWell yeah drug ports and
everything else.
Yeah, but stay focused looksall right.
So that's that criteria andagain, not to abandon that.
But when we talk aboutaddictions, again we're not
(13:57):
gonna find that in the DSM.
So how would we defineaddictions?
I would say you take a lot ofthose same components and say
Addictions typically think of aslike behavioral things like
gambling or pornography,anything like that.
I would say similar criteria,but we don't have them
recognized by a state of mind,we don't have them recognized by
(14:18):
a statistical manual yet.
But again, taking up thatbandwidth right it's taking up
the more I am either.
Oh, and also another amountwould.
Another criteria would befrequency, intensity and volume
of use whatever I'm using.
So I think that some of that cantranslate over to more of our
what we call behavioraladdictions as well and so kind
(14:39):
of similar look at it is howmuch of your bandwidth is being
taken up with this and not justuse of whatever.
That is a very common one.
Frequent is Pornography, so notjust the act of viewing
pornography, but how much timeagain, cognitive bandwidth is
being taken away and devoted tothat.
And then again, not just aroundthat singular use or multiple
(14:59):
use within one day, but, as wetalked about before, the guilt,
shame especially associated withthat, the time and energy that
you spend acquiring or thinkingabout acquiring or think about
the next time that you're gonnaengage in whatever that is.
So all of that bandwidth, themore, the more and more of
whatever Substance or behavioror interaction consumes that
(15:22):
bandwidth that you have, thenthe more and more you are
addicted to something.
Yeah, but yeah and and peopledon't like that word yeah
meaning.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
I mean it has the obviously the negative
connotation to it, but Somepeople feel relieved that it is
and some people don't.
Right, and again I go back tokind of just the upbringing of
the whole idea and this happensin and a meetings right where
it's like I'm so-and-so, I'm analcoholic, is that kind of what
(15:52):
the verbiage?
So it's one of those thingslike am I really an alcoholic?
Am I really an addicted pornuser?
Am I really a drug at, like allof these different things and
and For some it's freedom likeokay, there's a reason why this
is happening.
There's a name to put to thisright and for others, it's like
the shame gets reinforced withI'm this and sometimes and again
(16:14):
, sometimes that becomes theiridentity.
However, I haven't experiencedthat, seen with people that they
make that their identity,addiction their identity.
But I mean what?
What have you seen it?
Has that been a pro for peopleto identify with being addicted
to something?
Speaker 3 (16:32):
it?
Yeah, so it depends on theindividual and Okay so many
other variables about what makesthat person that person.
But for many people it'shelpful to have that right
because, rather than then bethis kind of maybe ambiguous or
non-tangential sort of like,Struggle I've been going through
.
I now have alcoholism and I canput a finger on that and I've I
(16:53):
can almost personify it.
So when I'm struggling withsomething, I'm not just beating
the air I've got something thatI can point to, especially with
alcoholism, there's, you know,decades and decades of
literature and a community'sbeen phenomenal and on the peer
recovery side of stuff too, forthat and again for that kind of
outlet that we're talking about.
To your other point, and maybenot necessarily conversely, but
(17:16):
that maybe the other side of thesame point is it can be
crippling or it can be in manyways shaming or again reinforce
you know, elements or actualshame that's already there and
be problematic for that person.
I think.
I think, regardless of wherethat person starts off, there's
like an evolution that happens.
So if.
I'm not willing to say I'm anaddict, I'm an alcoholic at some
(17:39):
point in time they're gonnaembrace.
It naturally happens.
Naturally happens where I'm anaddict and then sometimes that's
where they stay and they'relike again.
I finally put a face to thisthing, I've got a name for it.
And sometimes the evolutioncontinues.
Where I'm still, I'm inrecovery.
This is a thing that this was apart of me is certainly with
behavioral addictions.
They're like but I'm not.
(17:59):
I'm not an addict.
I've got so many years of beingfree from this, so so
recovering, addict, right?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Is that kind of the words that are used?
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Like I'm a, recovering addict More often
times now.
Yeah, I mean I'm so and so inrecovery Again.
That is more kind of forwardfacing and powering type of
language and so.
And then there's someindividuals that would say they
don't adhere to this disease,chronic disease model, that it's
something that's always thereand you're always susceptible to
that through whatevermechanisms they work through,
that at one point in time theymight have had an addiction or
(18:30):
had a substance use disorder,but in the future they don't
feel that they're susceptible tothat and they're free from that
, and I want to encourage thatmindset.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Right, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
That's the one I'm the least comfortable with,
because we know how the brainworks.
So we know how the bodyremembers things.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
And so that's the one I'm least comfortable with.
But I wouldn't take that awayfrom someone if that's helpful
for them.
Yeah.
But that mindset is, I would sayit's also the least
scientifically supported,because I think anything that's
happened, like any other injury,once you've had an injury
you're at greater risk for that.
I think of addictions similarto TBI's.
(19:09):
We've seen a lot of wonderfuloverlap in the veteran community
about how TBI's and things likePTSD have overlapping symptoms
and the kind of chronicity ofeach of those two.
So in a lot of ways I look atnot exactly, but look at a lot
of aspects of someone withsomeone who's suffered from
(19:29):
addiction who some people wouldsay have an addictive brain,
right Like just the brain knowsand remembers.
That may have healed from that,but again we're potentially one.
We'll call it relapse fromreturning, re-engaging those
neuro pathways and being rightback where we were.
So that sounds really gloom anddoom.
(19:51):
But what I want to say is like,regardless of how that person
enters and maybe even exits orstays in that continuum of
addiction, recovery and thosethings, that's hopeful right,
Because the non-hopeful part isnever entering it, never raising
to a level of awareness wherethis is something that I'm
addressed and a lot of peoplespend much of their life like
that.
So, to save us from gloom anddoom, just as a spectrum is good
(20:14):
man.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
No, no, I'm just trying to think and see what
kind of questions would come upfor someone who is going through
that right now as a Christian,as a Christian podcast that's
addressing attachment.
One sign that I saw was thataddiction has to do.
You talked about bandwidth,emotional bandwidth, mental
(20:38):
bandwidth, and there's thisother aspect of relationship
bandwidth.
Right, that addiction is a formof trying to recover connection
, that it is a loss ofconnection and because I don't
feel connected, I rather notfeel anything or feel something,
(20:58):
anything right, kind of thisidea, and it's just the feeling.
It's the feeling of connection.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
So I don't know if that's.
Let me go after it from thisangle.
Dr Lemke, Stanford psychiatrist, and she's phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
My boy Louis super well researched, by the way, I
love that's why he's here.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
So, and she's got great, great content out there,
she, oh, this is a plug.
So when they listened to thispodcast, Dr Andrew.
Huberman, who we all know andlove, we do, and Dr Lemke did a
wonderful podcast on addictionand it's steeped in all it's
like kind of the child of all ofthe years of research and stuff
.
She's on there.
So and anyone that knowsHuberman knows dopamine, right.
(21:41):
So she talks heavily aboutdopamine and it's this she calls
it the pleasure pain teeter,totter, Right.
So yeah.
So more on one side or the other, and we're always, in all areas
, looking for homeostasis, right, and our body wants to return
to homeostasis.
So an increase, you can expectat least an equal amount of
decrease or movement in theother direction as well.
(22:02):
So so what, louis?
Great question.
An individual will stay withsubstances and I think we can
expand from there if necessary.
Someone who uses alcohol, it'svery common.
Lots of research, lots ofpeople experience things around.
We'll stick there, Use alcoholand then experiences that up and
(22:27):
that down, right All of theneurotransmitters, not least of
which, on the forefront isdopamine, happening and then
comes back on the other side.
And now again, we've created aneuropath.
We've created some sort of ifyou stick with Lemke pleasure,
pain, teeter, totter, and so thebrain and body remembers.
And the next time that I need,or I feel the need to engage in
(22:51):
pleasure and or remove pain,because it's not always just a
pursuit of pleasure.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
It's a pursuing pleasure or alleviating pain.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
And this is where I kind of go off the deep in my
own way, but again steeped inresearch, hayes, tonig and
Levine living a lot of stuffover the past 10 to 15 years.
On this steeping a lot of fromthe problematic pornography side
of the house is there's somesort of I call an activating
event or trigger that happensand that leads to a craving and
(23:21):
leads to use.
Hmm, and then let me go so.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I go late, eighties and nineties, we would say hey,
we've got to eradicate this drugproblem.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah let's look at the behavior.
They're smoking crack, they'resmoking alcohol.
Just say no, just stop it.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I said oh right, remember that one that was a
video often used in our classes.
Yeah, it was.
I mean it was for fun, butstill, that was the message that
people were receiving.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Just say, just say no , we're saying well, there's
this negative outcome, this badbehavior that's maladaptive
coping, that's happening.
Just stop doing it.
Yeah, and surprise, it didn'twork right so again, we're
talking four decades worth of ifyou got it all up of study.
Specific to this and the modelthat I love and that I adhere to
is there's an activating eventtrigger right.
(24:08):
And then there is psychologicalpain or discomfort Right, and
then I don't know anything aboutyou, but I know you're an
American, sam, and I know wedespise discomfort right, so
much so that I don't want to geton my car to go.
Get my food I'll go through adrive-thru.
No better yet I'll call ubereats.
Soon we're gonna have robots,every thing.
This right like it's what youvisited earlier.
(24:34):
Yeah, so we despise discomfort,right?
So, and that's on, that's onjust feeling cold or not wanting
to be inconvenienced.
Talk about significantpsychological discomfort, right?
So many individuals that End uphaving what maybe call a full
fledged addiction, like youthere, in the grips of this
thing, trauma is somewhere intheir past.
(24:55):
Yeah so think about, from aseverity scale.
You know, psychological traumathat you haven't worked through,
you haven't dealt with thegrief you haven't gone through
yet and the constant need pullto avoid that pain, to avoid
that Pain.
So maybe it's a flashback,maybe it's seeing someone, maybe
it's the myriad of things thatcan trigger a negative
(25:19):
Psychological pain reaction ordiscomfort reaction.
And then my brain knows oh, wedon't like discomfort, we need
to avoid that.
Avoidance pieces is key.
And so what does it do?
Well, I know how to get usthere.
All right, at least know how tomake it stop for a while.
And so let's get back toalcohol.
So I'm gonna drink, I can go tothe bar, right, I can do this.
(25:42):
And then the insidious part ofthat is is then the addiction
becomes the Pain pleasureteeter-totter, because I don't
know how frequently you've beenlike just blackout drunk in your
life, sam, just kidding, butbut you typically physically
don't feel well afterwards, andthen, when you're up in the
morning, all of the things thatyou were drinking away.
(26:03):
Mm-hmm are still.
They are usually compoundedeven more right.
So now we have to deal withthat reality.
And then this is where thatshame element typically enters
in Is during that avoidancepiece, if it's not already there
, because now, now there issomething wrong with me.
Now looking, how could I do?
You know all and turn on allthe things, the horrible and
start so lower and then thatfeeds it right.
(26:24):
Yeah, it's this negative,insidious loop of, and that's
why that's why I was like, well,it's not really.
Just I want to get high or justwant to get drunk.
It that usually leaves a longtime ago and it's just.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I need to end off the pain.
So now just becomes a habit.
It was part of their daily life.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Yeah, yeah, you know again thinking about that
bandwidth, it only consumes moreand more.
Right and only consumes more andmore, and the more shameful I
am or feel I shouldn't say Ifeel Um the less I'm gonna have
interactions with relationships,the less I'm gonna care about
job, the less I'm going to Again, we're gonna go Adam and Eve,
so we're gonna sew fig leaves.
We're gonna distance ourselvesfrom God because, well, he's
(27:03):
perfect and especially asChristians will look what he
saved me from.
How could you know what I mean?
And then yeah, and then we'rejust hitting that loop over and
over again.
And so not from a DSM criteriastandpoint.
That's why I like the term oridea of addiction Is because I
think now, the more that weunder understood it and we owe a
lot of that to neuroscience onthe past several years is, um,
(27:27):
it really can be more thingslike if we look at it from,
limkey would say that plainpleasure, pleasure, teeter,
totter, um, and how weunderstand that.
You know, dopamine system, thatis um.
That's a good point too.
So the dopamine is, it's noteven I'm not even using at that
point.
This was, this was early on,right after I got out of school
(27:49):
right and I be heroin drug userman.
Young girl.
Oh goodness, um.
She said, louis, I relapse aweek before I ever put a needle
in my Hand and again raised inthe 80s.
I was like, no, you're only anaddict when you're injecting.
And she walked me through thetime and then further research
and study on my own was likeshe's.
She was adequately explaining.
(28:10):
This whole dopaminergicsituation she found herself in
is the.
It's anticipation of bothdirections.
It's the anticipation of pain,because our brain Thank you, dr
Huberman is a massivelyefficient prediction machine.
I know it's coming.
I have to believe that.
I know what's coming, that Ican.
Who wouldn't say this out loud?
But I, I can tell the futureright.
(28:31):
I know that that interaction isgoing to leave me hurting.
I know that, um, those peopleare gonna think this way about
me.
I know that I've got thiscriminal record.
Now, as most people strugglewith addiction do, no one in
society is gonna care about me,so it's not even necessarily
being confronted with the pain.
It's the anticipation of thepsychological pain which can
(28:53):
kick this in, and then thatdopamine Back to our earlier
reference of that young lady was.
I don't even need to stick tothe middle of my arm.
It is the anticipation ofgetting there.
It's calling the dealer.
It's wondering when he's gonnashow up.
It's it's scrambling to get themoney.
It's doing all these things,yeah, because we know that
alcohol and other chemicals andsubstances like that, uh, we
(29:15):
never get that initial high.
That's why they call it chasingthe dragon window heroine,
opioid users, because that,whatever that initial high was,
whenever we felt that Petepleasure, they're never able to
replicate that.
And so again to, to kind of.
I would use this tosubstantiate my argument for the
why this is an accurate modelIs because pleasure left a long
time ago that high that we saywe're chasing or not, we are
(29:38):
stuck on the loop, or the that Ican say that insidious cycle of
avoiding pain.
And anticipating that it'scoming and brain stepping in and
being like I got us, I'llprotect us.
I got us, I know how to get usthere, and um, and oftentimes
it's the.
The best thing that happens tosomeone who's, like I said, this
(29:59):
deep in addiction is theanticipation of getting there.
It's the drive to the bar, it'sthe um, yeah, we've got, we've
had such a spike in like all theWe'll say things around like
sexual compulsive disorders.
Or sexual compulsive typebehavior, uh, lately, and I
think it pays serious credenceto this right.
(30:20):
Yeah, and so the act of itself,whatever sexual act that
they're engaging in um In someway shape or form, is involving
them physically, but so much ofit is to lead up to it, I mean I
can have.
I can have people in greatdetail be like I just I can't
delete the app.
I've got to stay on whateverapp.
That is that is a snapchat, orwhether it's an actual app
design for, you know, hooking upwith people, but it's, it's
(30:43):
that little hook that keeps mecoming back.
So it's not actually the timethat I interface with a person
or you know, fill whatever,whatever act I'm ultimately
going to do, it's all of thatbuild up, it's all that initial
dope.
I mean that that lead up to it.
So sorry, ramble, no no, it'sgood ways there yeah but that I
mean.
(31:03):
again back to how I got here.
Well, I Was seeking, in a lotof ways, selfishly and
pridefully, I wanted tounderstand, I want to know, and
now I believe, and I've seenenough in my own life and lives
of the I don't gosh probablyhundreds or thousands of clients
I've worked with, to be, like.
This is what.
This is what's going on.
Yeah this is what is happeningand this is that insidious cycle
(31:24):
that we get pulled into, thatwe, that we just keep feeding.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Yeah, absolutely no, and I appreciate you sharing the
Neuroscience part.
Yeah, because I think thequestion now that becomes even
more real is well, god createdus this way, you know.
God created us to have dopamineand, and dopamine in its proper
use, I guess we could say issupposed to be there or Positive
(31:51):
things.
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Why is the thing that's meantto be good for me dopamine,
feeling good right, the pleasure, seeking out, the pleasure in
things that are pleasurable.
Why do I feel that when I amAddicted to something?
Why don't I feel pain in theaddiction?
(32:12):
But, if I'm understanding youcorrectly, that is part of the
balance is that there's pain andthen there's pleasure, and
you're using one to get rid ofthe other, in a sense.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
And, like said, oftentimes pleasures left and
it's really just that pursuit.
That don't mean is the pleasureYou're gonna derive from that,
it's just a pursuit of that.
It's not even there anymore.
That yeah.
I is not there.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I'm.
I thought that was a reallygood point.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
I think to answer.
The question too is Well, howcould God do this?
Why would he create us this wayand all?
He created everything perfectand in its time, right.
And so we're humans and wehuman it up, you know, and then
we, we take it and we, yeah, we,we pervert it in some way, or
it's again.
It was gonna be a fall too,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
And I think that's what.
I think that's really whatwe're, what we're seeing, and I
remember someone sharing a longtime ago.
They said you know what healthylooks like is?
What is what we picture beforethe garden, before the fall and
the go.
Yeah, what's unhealthy iseverything that followed after
that.
I mean immediately, you see theimpact of it, with Killing able
and so on.
(33:18):
But the question is what do we?
What do we want that to looklike?
We won't have that here, right,it's gonna be in our perfect
bodies when we go to heaven.
For those of us who havebelieved in Christ, that's gonna
be our eternal home in ourbetter bodies.
But for now, as Christiancounselors and as Christians,
how do we help people?
So there's people who arelistening right now, who are
(33:38):
thinking about maybe inaddiction that they're currently
having and it's affecting theirrelationship with God.
What, what can we share withthem that can give them hope?
We talked a little bit aboutthat, like you know, maybe
defining it in your life, sayingthat it is an addiction, maybe
that can provide the whole good.
Maybe it'll cause some shame.
(33:58):
How do you deal with the shamethat comes after that?
So what?
What are some?
Some words of encouragement, ofwisdom they could share with
others about how to Attach toGod during this difficult time
where they feel like God doesn'twant to be close to them, like
they feel, like you know,they're a failure and that maybe
, even if they're not aChristian anymore.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Yeah, because there there was his name's escaped,
muted, a TED talk on it, but agentleman that kind of did a
self-study on addiction he had alot of his family's from the
United Kingdom was steeped inthis and the quote from him is
the opposite of addiction isconnection and I'd say that's,
that's the one.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
There's a lot of truth.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
He goes a little bit further than I would with it in
some kind of political andsocial spheres.
But there's a lot of truth tothat man.
Okay, and I would even say theopposite of addiction is
community like it's much to talkabout community.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
And they're eating and all about that.
Oh man, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
There's a big by nature of in virtue of how
they're constructed.
There's people who often saywell, there's no.
Where's the data?
Where's you know so?
I think, I was like, well, theyshouldn't exist.
You know what I mean.
Like, okay, they don't have anypeer reviewed published studies
, but tell all of the hundredsof thousands of people you know
that's not helpful, so anyway,oh, the opposite of addiction is
(35:15):
connection or communityrelationship right.
So addiction does that.
It takes more and more of yourbandwidth and devotes to it
again.
The pursuit of the consumption,of the aftermath of Whatever
we're engaging in.
So one which will bechallenging, obviously,
especially how far this hasprogressed, because the more
(35:36):
Consumed we are with something,the less we have of other things
we lose friendships we losefamily members.
There is one that never leavesus, though, and again it would
be hard, especially withProbably the compounding shame
that's going on, but he's, god'sthere, like Christ isn't
leaving us.
So I would say, not just achurch answer of like praying
(35:57):
more and faith, but that being aPinnacle of whatever recovery
is gonna look like for you, andthen, as well, community.
I don't know what thatcommunity looks like, because
there's so many Variants and somany different things that are
out there, but there are greatthings like a, a in a, sex
holics, anonymous, celebraterecovery.
(36:18):
They have great chapters allover the place here Thomas road,
freedom ministries.
There are a lot of good thingsabout them.
All of these kind of curriculumdriven 12-step peer recovery
groups can be good locations.
I will caution people and Ialways do when I sit them out.
It's like You're gonna go to agroup that's full of hurting
people or maybe even full ofpeople who are addicts, right,
so it's not necessarily a safeplace just to walk in there and
(36:41):
assume that everyone's going tobe safe, that's true, but they
are.
There are great communities andthere are great people within
those communities and as well asthe lives and Relationships
that you have or maybe had thatwere abandoned.
Some of them, unfortunately,are not gonna be repaired
immediately, so we can take asmuch time, if not longer, that
they took to deconstruct.
To demand, yeah, but a largepart of it is going to be
(37:04):
community.
Yeah and it's going to be.
It's going to be againreclaiming a lot of that
bandwidth Mm-hmm in that all.
Now, if it's chemically related, especially alcohol, alcohol is
a drug that you know you candie from withdrawal Most of them
.
Just you feel like you want todie when you're drawing but
alcohol.
So if it is, if for the audience, if it is chemically related, I
(37:26):
would say it would definitelyworth speaking to a physician or
maybe even going to some sortof Crisis stabilization, medical
stabilization, if that's onboard, but that that can be a
hard first step, right, butsometimes a hard first step is
enough momentum to keep becauseit's going to be a long process
to like.
I don't.
That's good to know.
I don't.
I don't deceive anybody, likewhen I talked about like.
(37:48):
This is gonna be hard.
This is arguably going to bethe most difficult thing of your
life, but I can tell you it'sgoing to be worth it, because
the fact that you're it's reasonto your awareness and you're
willing to address it means thatyou can't keep doing this.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yeah, oh, and actually it's like family or
people who are close to thosewho are addicted that kind of
make that push for them to seekhelp right, or they reinforce
that, they become kind of, IGuess, reinforce just that
behavior by either allowing itto happen, I don't know what's,
I guess what's the rule forsomeone who is has a friend or
(38:22):
family member, because I thinkthat's, that's difficult to do
like how do I tell you know mydad, how do I tell my friend,
how do I tell my sibling thatthey have a problem?
because usually, from what Iunderstand addicts, they don't
see it as a problem initially.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
So what you don't want to do is.
Yeah yeah, give both sides.
Yeah, For some it depends on,like, the progressive nature and
whatever that person'srelationship is.
Because there's just so manypossibilities, I'll give a
generality.
Yeah and hopefully we can derivethings from that, and that is
if you see someone who is Fullyimmersed in whatever addiction
(39:03):
this is going on.
They're probably prettyisolated, right, right, again,
various stages, but generalgeneralizing here, just to be
able to See their humanity andright be like, and it's that
delicate balance of beingtransparent, being honest and
being compassionate, right, yeah, and so I'm gonna get on this
(39:25):
soapbox to me.
I'm like gosh, why does notevery church just have like an
addiction recovery program, ifnot Christians?
Who is better equipped to say Isee you, I know you're hurt, I
know, you know, I know I've hurt, I know of being captive, I
know of being shackled tosomething again, what thing that
(39:45):
is, you know, god only knows.
But so, man, yeah, anyway,sorry, and get back on my
soapbox and just turn it back tobeing the church man but um oh
sorry.
So that individual that believesor recognizes that someone they
know and care about is againmeeting them there In helping
walking with them.
So so much can be done Withgoing with someone to that
(40:09):
appointment or going withsomeone to that first meeting
that they're going to or aregoing with.
It's difficult becauseoftentimes people that are in
like, fully immersed in anaddiction, it's, it's, it has
kind of taken over thatchronicity and More of a disease
model mindset.
That's not the person you knewbefore.
(40:30):
Right, and you can think aboutthat.
Helps.
You can think about that too.
It's like you're not talking toLewis, you're not talking to
your friend.
That addiction has consumedmuch, if not all of that
bandwidth.
So, that's, that's the lensthrough which they're viewing
life, and so it can be.
It can be really hard, that canbe, but that might be a good
first step.
For Someone who loves or isfamily member, friend of someone
(40:53):
with addiction is to say, hey,if I want to, if I want a hope
of getting them back, then itmight be a lot of hard first
steps.
Yeah, but so that's what it is.
You see the humanity.
Have compassion and be honestwith them, right.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
That's good.
That's good and for the personwho is wanting to trust God
during this time.
Obviously, there's plenty ofexamples in scripture where God
has did a bunch of 180s wherechange people's lives.
You have a lot of testimonies,we have our own testimony,
people in the audience havetheir own testimonies.
So it's, it's possible, and Ithink somewhere along the way in
(41:33):
the midst of all that there'sthis loss of hope, and If you
could just speak a little bit tothat, you know how does someone
gain hope Throughout thisprocess, because it seems
never-ending.
Yeah, I don't know what theturning point is, but we touched
a lot on connection andcommunity.
You know, and I think even partof the AA statements is kind of
(41:53):
like this belief in God, or Iguess they use the word higher
power and so on.
But for those of us who arebelievers, you know Oftentimes
that that loss of hope is thehardest thing to get back, and
I'm just curious to hear yourthoughts like how, how do people
Regain that hope?
What?
Where do you see the shift inthe process of counseling or in
(42:17):
their stage of life, thatthey're in that and it's boom.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
That's now they're hopeful.
That's the question sayingyou're good podcast.
That is the question, and if Ihad that answer I would freely
share it with everyone like acure to cancer man.
Yeah, but you hit on the cruxof it is hope.
As long as there's hope, or aslong as we have the capacity to
hope, because sometimes it againthe addictions consuming
(42:40):
everything, then it's possible.
And that's what I would say toanyone struggling with it.
Anyone that's with someonethat's struggling through it is
long man.
We choked up, sam oh yeah.
Yeah, as long as there's air intheir lungs, right, god can
still move and as long as, aslong as we can continue to
(43:01):
strengthen ourselves To helpothers, have a pass to help
others and there's always hope,so All right.
What does it actually mean?
All right so yeah, find outwhat that is but, again.
That's that, approaching thatperson with Compassion and
humanity and being honest withthem, yeah, saying what is it?
You didn't wake up one day asan eight-year-old man by the
(43:25):
time I'm 24.
I want to have a criminal rapsheet as long, as my arm and be
have stolen and pilfered from somany people in my life that
everyone's cut me off, donethings like unspeakable things
to people into myself.
Mm-hmm just to get this,whatever it is, just get this
alcohol, just to get this stuffto cook up and shoot my arm.
(43:48):
No one did that, so maybe it isspeaking to that part of them,
that part of them that's stillalive.
It's good.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Yeah, I, you know to your point about just kind of
like wolf, that that struck anerve somewhere.
And you know, we're talkingabout hope and I'm thinking now
About my mom and my uncle andone of my uncles.
He was just having to drink.
I I'd never Got drunk, I'venever drank excessively, yeah,
(44:19):
you know, and One of the reasonswhy is because I remember
seeing my uncle was so drunk andI hated how they were around me
, mm-hmm, and there were yearswhere you know, they were in and
out of jail and kind of doingall these different things and
and I told my mom, mom, stop,stop, stop helping them or stop
doing this stuff doing that.
So I was telling her and my momsaid, yeah, right, yeah, it does
(44:43):
get you.
She's like I'm gonna keeppraying and I'm gonna keep
hoping for him and things aregonna change.
And you know, today I can sharethat monk was changed and you
know it's it was crazy becausehe had said that before like
there's this aspect of no, I'mchange, I'm new, and then go
back to it.
I felt disappointed that ithappened.
But I remember that, not justhope for the person, but how
(45:08):
those around the person need tohold out that hope, because they
get tired, yeah, of wanting ahope, wanting to change, and
then you have the people aroundthem who can still instill that
hope.
So it just reminded me of thatand I'm thankful for that and
I'm glad that you touched onthat and and that hope.
And I think that this is gonnabe helpful to listeners because
(45:29):
that is a powerful thing,because sometimes we feel like
giving up on the people aroundus and I think it just
Re-emphasizes the point of thegospel right, christ came and
died for us in spite of, well,how we treated him, and now you
know we have the blessing to beable to minister to others by
(45:49):
seeing what he's done in ourlives and I just man thank you
so much for sharing from yourexperience and your insights and
bringing the data, which I love.
You know I love that and this is.
I think this is gonna be ablessing and I appreciate you as
a person, as a friend.
This is fun and this was good,so do another one.
(46:09):
Absolutely yeah okay, cool,remember the contract.
Yes, yeah 50%, that's what weagree on.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
Yeah, well, no, I appreciate you having me on,
appreciate you being willing toapproach this topic right.
Especially often tonight'sreligious circle, it's not one
that we want to do.
So, it's kind of courageous youdoing it.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Thank you guys.
Alright, everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
As you know, we have beenmaking a couple of changes not
big changes, but just some newdirection when I introduce the
podcast.
I'm especially blessed todaybecause I have my good friend,
lewis Alvey.
Lewis is my neighbor, is mycoworker and is my friend.
(00:28):
We are talking today aboutaddictions and classmate.
That's right.
We just there's another part oflife that you can do, that's
true.
Yeah.
So and now podcast guests Lookat this.
We're looking for all of thoseconnections.
So I like it.
So I'm excited about today'spodcast because we're talking
(00:50):
about faith and addictions and Idon't think I've done a podcast
on this.
So when I was thinking about Ithink we were having a
conversation and it came upsomething about addictions and I
was like you know what?
We never really talked aboutthat and I've never had anyone
and that's one of your passions.
And I said, well, we alreadytalk enough anyways, why don't
(01:11):
we just record it and put it outon the podcast?
Speaker 3 (01:14):
right, so it makes sense You'll have a lot of
editing ahead of you, ourconversations meander and go.
I enjoy them, but I don't knowthat it's clean material for
podcasts.
It will be.
It will be good, yeah, yeah,you know.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
So, louis, why don't you tell us the audience, a
little bit about your background?
We're going to talk aboutaddictions, so the audience
likes to know, okay, who are wetalking to?
And there we know someinformation, my personal
relationship with you.
But now how can you introduceyourself to the audience?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Hi audience.
I'm Louis Sam's neighbor Now soI guess professional kind of
resume leading up to thisentered the mental health field,
been in the cat back kind ofcapacity for the past.
I think it's over 15 years nowwell yeah, in various and I'll
say coming into like a calladdictions, I was reluctant
(02:07):
right I was like I kept feelinga pole but I had other ideas for
myself professionally and butearly on was it was in some ways
heavy handed, pushed in thatdirection.
But then was one of thoseexperiences where it resonated
with me and then, once I saw it,and I saw it prevalence of it
as well.
I couldn't unsee it, and so nowfor good or bad.
(02:29):
Most of the way I approachmental health is through that
lens of addiction right.
And the things it has, like avery familiar peer recovery
program would say, the Hertzhabits and hangups.
And so my catchphrase, which Iprobably stole from Steve
Nielsen, dr Nielsen's amazingguy yeah was everybody's got
(02:50):
something right, and so whetherit's a DSM recognized and
cluster of criteria that we candiagnose, or if it's something
that we elevate to levels ofhigher importance or consume
more of our kind of cognitivebandwidth and that's, I think, a
theme I'll come back to alittle bit there is something
(03:11):
that that we do.
Then how I tie that in and howI understand that kind of from a
faith or spiritual aspect isCalvin was our hearts are
perpetual idol factories right,yeah.
And so in my mind, again that's,I see that, especially in our
field, as being true and true tothis idea of addictions, or
everybody's got something thatthey, maybe they're holding on
(03:34):
to or maybe they're againelevating to a place and level
of importance and it's taking upmore of their time and capacity
than we know as Christians atall.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Yeah, and it really does.
At least it feels like too manypeople struggle with addiction,
that it controls their lives,right, it really dictates a lot
of what they do.
And I'm just curious because Idon't think I've necessarily
maybe asked this particularquestion, but typically when we
go into the counseling field, wehave a hard for an area where
we ourselves have experiencedhurt, or where someone close to
(04:06):
us has experienced hurt, or justsomething where our skills line
up well with meeting that thatneed.
So for you, when you thinkabout addictions, like was there
, is there a personal backgroundstory there, with someone
addicted to something or how didyour heart Well?
Speaker 3 (04:24):
I think we all have our addiction, so but, I didn't
learn that.
To the other end, in my lesserChristlike moment when I was
entering into the field foringinto psychology, I said I just
want to understand what peoplethink.
I want to understand why we dothe things that we do.
And at the time a lot of thatfor me was well, I want to dive
heavy into psychologicalresearch.
(04:45):
When do a lot of these type ofthings and I think God had and
allowed that in my heart, thatdesire which I would argue is
ungodly at the time because itwas a lot of pride baked into
that I want to know Ultimatelyto show well, this is, this is
how that looks.
Yes.
This and through the model ofaddiction that I relate here
closely to, I think it makes, ithelps me understand, and I
(05:10):
think when I interact withpeople and we share that space
together, it helps give them agreater understanding of as well
.
Well, that's why I'm here.
Also, I can recognize I'm stuckand these are the contributing
factors to why I'm being stuck.
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, and you know, for Christians I don't know if
it's a different layer Do yousee a difference between how
Christians manage addictionsversus those who are not
Christian?
You know, we work.
We work in a Christian setting,but it seems like there's maybe
little difference between howboth Christians and
non-Christians manage addictionsor deal with addictions.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
I'll say, and I'm sure we'll come back to this as
well that's a trait, or yeah, ofChristians with addiction is
excessive.
Shame, right, because there's.
I should be better than this,or even questioning faith.
I can't possibly be a Christianand have these things, these
(06:11):
attachments, this misalignedaffection you know, so, if
anything, I'm not sayingChristians are worse off, right.
I'm saying that that that conconcept of shame, the things
that surround that, I think aremore prevalent maybe, or maybe
even more intense in religiouscircles, and that's.
(06:33):
I think it does come down tothe individual, as you know, and
so much of what group orculture they're in and what
their faith and their, theirbelief system, kind of how it
addresses that.
So in all of the upbringing tolike what was I taught that?
How does God look at these you?
know, these kind of things soyeah all of that goes into it,
(06:57):
but I think, unfortunately, butthen also I know there's such
redeeming qualities about aswell.
I don't want to make it soundlike it's just you know, those
poor Christian addicts, but yeah, that that heavy component of
shame oftentimes accompanies oris more maybe intense or
prevalent with Christians asthey're struggling with their
addiction.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
That's true, yeah, yeah.
And you know, when I wasthinking about this particular
episode, I was thinking aboutwhat verses are there that we've
referenced that are true, butmaybe some people have a hard
time understanding.
And I thought about secondCorinthians 517, and the verse
basically is right being a newcreation.
If there's anyone in Christ,therefore, he's a new creation.
(07:36):
All things have passed away,behold, all things have become
new.
And there's that, that element.
And I feel it sounds like withChristians who are addicted to
something kind of have thatshame based approach because,
well, if I'm a Christian,shouldn't all of this be passed
away?
Right, shouldn't this be allgone?
And you know, it's interestingtoo, because with Christians who
(08:02):
grew up in the church, it seemslike they have that struggle
and that shame much more dynamicand stronger in their lives.
Those who maybe come to Lordafterwards, they now experience
Christ in a new way.
So everything that they've doneprior to their relationship
with Christ, it seems to greatlydiminish once they come to
(08:26):
Christ.
And I don't know if you've seenthat I grew up in the church, so
I know that those who grew upin there there's a standard that
they're called to live by.
Hey, you've been given more towho much is given, much is
expected.
So they kind of have thisnarrative of I need to keep that
going.
So when they mess up, it's allon the worst ever, with new
believers who maybe come to theLord later down the line.
(08:49):
For them it's that was my life,I was it, I was all of these
things, and now the Lord haschanged me.
So then you could see that 180,but I don't know, have you seen
that?
Is there a difference?
Speaker 3 (09:00):
there that you also the former expert in the field
that I like to quote the most.
I mean to my wife right.
Yeah, in the mental health fieldprior to me she would 100%
agree with that.
Like she says that there is,there are things that are
attached, or again thisOftentimes unhealthy belief
system that comes with peoplethat have grown up Christian
(09:22):
advice, someone who Was saved inan older age, maybe in their
teens or early adulthood, andespecially saved out of
addiction, because they have adifferent, I think, perspective
or a perspective on Freedom andgrace.
Right, because, again I was, Iwas completely lost and until I
was plucked from that until myeyes were open.
(09:43):
I was you know, no chance in theworld of going to heaven and no
chance in the world of a lot ofthings especially.
With all the overlaying Kind ofoutlook that a lot of people
with addiction have.
So I'll quote Amanda and say,yeah, she would absolutely be.
In some ways From our talksabout this she sees it as being
(10:07):
more hopeful, right, like therecan be more hope and more
Radical acceptance of that grace.
Whereas yeah, someone who has.
I feel like I'm talking aboutgrowing up in a Christian
household like baggage, and Idon't mean it that way saying
some of those things youarticulated that are baked in
that we can't.
We have a hard time reconcilingyeah, they can't.
(10:29):
I think it can make it muchmore complicated and Make it
more difficult in some ways, hmm, to understand and really
embrace that freedom.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Embrace, yeah, absolutely, and you know to your
point about Not looking at thatpast or growing up in a
Christian home being seen asbaggage, because there's a lot
of pros to it.
But I think the cons aredifferent.
They're still there.
You know it's not perfect andyou know I would say that I grew
up in mostly a healthyChristian church.
But as I got older I start tounderstand things differently
(10:59):
and I just didn't know how to,how, to see myself not meeting
the standard.
So it was this expectation of Ineed to be this way and if I
wasn't, I was just a completefailure.
So I think that's kind ofspeaks to the shame component
that we've been discussing butultimately correct me from wrong
.
Addiction is about coping withthe stressor.
Or is there more to it, right?
(11:21):
So if I'm addicted to something, I'm using that to cope with
the pain, with some form ofstress, and if it's been my
go-to for years and years andyears, which is typically kind
of what happens, then why wouldI let go of something that's
helped me cope with thestressors of life?
But what is addiction?
That's just kind of I was gonnatry to get back to you and say,
(11:43):
yeah, well work, your licensedclinical mental health
practitioners.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
So when we go to our diagnostic manual, where do you
find the word addiction?
We don't right, so not thatthat's wrong.
I think some people think of itas an antiquated term.
I think it's very.
It can be helpful and healthyin a lot of ways to give life.
Yeah, yeah, but DSM 5 we're now5 TR Is going to use different
(12:10):
use disorders.
Well, so we'll say whatchemicals specifically.
Yeah so substance use disordersand then specified alcohol, you
know opioids different thingslike that and and I think that
there's utility in that criteria, so I'm not in one camp or the
other.
I think there's a lot that wecan Utilize and it is helpful
for us to do so.
We'll start with Diagnosticcriteria from the manual and
(12:31):
those fall into.
We can yeah, if I can, if I can, a clean real quick.
It's.
It has a lot to do with levelof impairment of your
functioning and From then tryingto our to figure out how to
articulate that, because youknow when you're with a client
that they could read the DSM ifthey wanted to.
(12:52):
Yeah, so how do we break thisinto?
Maybe?
an analogy or something that'shelpful.
I look at like we have Cognitiveand emotional bandwidth right
like you do the internet'scouldn't come through a cable
and that bandwidth is taken upby different things throughout
any given day, and so, asdifferent areas of that
(13:14):
bandwidth are consumed again,areas of functioning
Relationships, things like that,those are the criteria through
which we look at the severity ofthe what we'd call addiction,
or we'll stay with substances,substance use disorder.
So it appears things like ourrelationships, our ability to
find and hold occupations, legalright that's, and that's a
(13:37):
helpful one too, because we do,as a society, have a legal like
A legal system with laws andthings in place, and it can be
helpful in that.
That's a whole.
I could go off on a whole otherWell yeah drug ports and
everything else.
Yeah, but stay focused looksall right.
So that's that criteria andagain, not to abandon that.
But when we talk aboutaddictions, again we're not
(13:57):
gonna find that in the DSM.
So how would we defineaddictions?
I would say you take a lot ofthose same components and say
Addictions typically think of aslike behavioral things like
gambling or pornography,anything like that.
I would say similar criteria,but we don't have them
recognized by a state of mind,we don't have them recognized by
(14:18):
a statistical manual yet.
But again, taking up thatbandwidth right it's taking up
the more I am either.
Oh, and also another amountwould.
Another criteria would befrequency, intensity and volume
of use whatever I'm using.
So I think that some of that cantranslate over to more of our
what we call behavioraladdictions as well and so kind
(14:39):
of similar look at it is howmuch of your bandwidth is being
taken up with this and not justuse of whatever.
That is a very common one.
Frequent is Pornography, so notjust the act of viewing
pornography, but how much timeagain, cognitive bandwidth is
being taken away and devoted tothat.
And then again, not just aroundthat singular use or multiple
(14:59):
use within one day, but, as wetalked about before, the guilt,
shame especially associated withthat, the time and energy that
you spend acquiring or thinkingabout acquiring or think about
the next time that you're gonnaengage in whatever that is.
So all of that bandwidth, themore, the more and more of
whatever Substance or behavioror interaction consumes that
(15:22):
bandwidth that you have, thenthe more and more you are
addicted to something.
Yeah, but yeah and and peopledon't like that word yeah
meaning.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
I mean it has the obviously the negative
connotation to it, but Somepeople feel relieved that it is
and some people don't.
Right, and again I go back tokind of just the upbringing of
the whole idea and this happensin and a meetings right where
it's like I'm so-and-so, I'm analcoholic, is that kind of what
(15:52):
the verbiage?
So it's one of those thingslike am I really an alcoholic?
Am I really an addicted pornuser?
Am I really a drug at, like allof these different things and
and For some it's freedom likeokay, there's a reason why this
is happening.
There's a name to put to thisright and for others, it's like
the shame gets reinforced withI'm this and sometimes and again
(16:14):
, sometimes that becomes theiridentity.
However, I haven't experiencedthat, seen with people that they
make that their identity,addiction their identity.
But I mean what?
What have you seen it?
Has that been a pro for peopleto identify with being addicted
to something?
Speaker 3 (16:32):
it?
Yeah, so it depends on theindividual and Okay so many
other variables about what makesthat person that person.
But for many people it'shelpful to have that right
because, rather than then bethis kind of maybe ambiguous or
non-tangential sort of like,Struggle I've been going through
.
I now have alcoholism and I canput a finger on that and I've I
(16:53):
can almost personify it.
So when I'm struggling withsomething, I'm not just beating
the air I've got something thatI can point to, especially with
alcoholism, there's, you know,decades and decades of
literature and a community'sbeen phenomenal and on the peer
recovery side of stuff too, forthat and again for that kind of
outlet that we're talking about.
To your other point, and maybenot necessarily conversely, but
(17:16):
that maybe the other side of thesame point is it can be
crippling or it can be in manyways shaming or again reinforce
you know, elements or actualshame that's already there and
be problematic for that person.
I think.
I think, regardless of wherethat person starts off, there's
like an evolution that happens.
So if.
I'm not willing to say I'm anaddict, I'm an alcoholic at some
(17:39):
point in time they're gonnaembrace.
It naturally happens.
Naturally happens where I'm anaddict and then sometimes that's
where they stay and they'relike again.
I finally put a face to thisthing, I've got a name for it.
And sometimes the evolutioncontinues.
Where I'm still, I'm inrecovery.
This is a thing that this was apart of me is certainly with
behavioral addictions.
They're like but I'm not.
(17:59):
I'm not an addict.
I've got so many years of beingfree from this, so so
recovering, addict, right?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Is that kind of the words that are used?
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Like I'm a, recovering addict More often
times now.
Yeah, I mean I'm so and so inrecovery Again.
That is more kind of forwardfacing and powering type of
language and so.
And then there's someindividuals that would say they
don't adhere to this disease,chronic disease model, that it's
something that's always thereand you're always susceptible to
that through whatevermechanisms they work through,
that at one point in time theymight have had an addiction or
(18:30):
had a substance use disorder,but in the future they don't
feel that they're susceptible tothat and they're free from that
, and I want to encourage thatmindset.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Right, right yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
That's the one I'm the least comfortable with,
because we know how the brainworks.
So we know how the bodyremembers things.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
And so that's the one I'm least comfortable with.
But I wouldn't take that awayfrom someone if that's helpful
for them.
Yeah.
But that mindset is, I would sayit's also the least
scientifically supported,because I think anything that's
happened, like any other injury,once you've had an injury
you're at greater risk for that.
I think of addictions similarto TBI's.
(19:09):
We've seen a lot of wonderfuloverlap in the veteran community
about how TBI's and things likePTSD have overlapping symptoms
and the kind of chronicity ofeach of those two.
So in a lot of ways I look atnot exactly, but look at a lot
of aspects of someone withsomeone who's suffered from
(19:29):
addiction who some people wouldsay have an addictive brain,
right Like just the brain knowsand remembers.
That may have healed from that,but again we're potentially one.
We'll call it relapse fromreturning, re-engaging those
neuro pathways and being rightback where we were.
So that sounds really gloom anddoom.
(19:51):
But what I want to say is like,regardless of how that person
enters and maybe even exits orstays in that continuum of
addiction, recovery and thosethings, that's hopeful right,
Because the non-hopeful part isnever entering it, never raising
to a level of awareness wherethis is something that I'm
addressed and a lot of peoplespend much of their life like
that.
So, to save us from gloom anddoom, just as a spectrum is good
(20:14):
man.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
No, no, I'm just trying to think and see what
kind of questions would come upfor someone who is going through
that right now as a Christian,as a Christian podcast that's
addressing attachment.
One sign that I saw was thataddiction has to do.
You talked about bandwidth,emotional bandwidth, mental
(20:38):
bandwidth, and there's thisother aspect of relationship
bandwidth.
Right, that addiction is a formof trying to recover connection
, that it is a loss ofconnection and because I don't
feel connected, I rather notfeel anything or feel something,
(20:58):
anything right, kind of thisidea, and it's just the feeling.
It's the feeling of connection.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
So I don't know if that's.
Let me go after it from thisangle.
Dr Lemke, Stanford psychiatrist, and she's phenomenal.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
My boy Louis super well researched, by the way, I
love that's why he's here.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
So, and she's got great, great content out there,
she, oh, this is a plug.
So when they listened to thispodcast, Dr Andrew.
Huberman, who we all know andlove, we do, and Dr Lemke did a
wonderful podcast on addictionand it's steeped in all it's
like kind of the child of all ofthe years of research and stuff
.
She's on there.
So and anyone that knowsHuberman knows dopamine, right.
(21:41):
So she talks heavily aboutdopamine and it's this she calls
it the pleasure pain teeter,totter, Right.
So yeah.
So more on one side or the other, and we're always, in all areas
, looking for homeostasis, right, and our body wants to return
to homeostasis.
So an increase, you can expectat least an equal amount of
decrease or movement in theother direction as well.
(22:02):
So so what, louis?
Great question.
An individual will stay withsubstances and I think we can
expand from there if necessary.
Someone who uses alcohol, it'svery common.
Lots of research, lots ofpeople experience things around.
We'll stick there, Use alcoholand then experiences that up and
(22:27):
that down, right All of theneurotransmitters, not least of
which, on the forefront isdopamine, happening and then
comes back on the other side.
And now again, we've created aneuropath.
We've created some sort of ifyou stick with Lemke pleasure,
pain, teeter, totter, and so thebrain and body remembers.
And the next time that I need,or I feel the need to engage in
(22:51):
pleasure and or remove pain,because it's not always just a
pursuit of pleasure.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
It's a pursuing pleasure or alleviating pain.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
And this is where I kind of go off the deep in my
own way, but again steeped inresearch, hayes, tonig and
Levine living a lot of stuffover the past 10 to 15 years.
On this steeping a lot of fromthe problematic pornography side
of the house is there's somesort of I call an activating
event or trigger that happensand that leads to a craving and
(23:21):
leads to use.
Hmm, and then let me go so.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
I go late, eighties and nineties, we would say hey,
we've got to eradicate this drugproblem.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah let's look at the behavior.
They're smoking crack, they'resmoking alcohol.
Just say no, just stop it.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
I said oh right, remember that one that was a
video often used in our classes.
Yeah, it was.
I mean it was for fun, butstill, that was the message that
people were receiving.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Just say, just say no , we're saying well, there's
this negative outcome, this badbehavior that's maladaptive
coping, that's happening.
Just stop doing it.
Yeah, and surprise, it didn'twork right so again, we're
talking four decades worth of ifyou got it all up of study.
Specific to this and the modelthat I love and that I adhere to
is there's an activating eventtrigger right.
(24:08):
And then there is psychologicalpain or discomfort Right, and
then I don't know anything aboutyou, but I know you're an
American, sam, and I know wedespise discomfort right, so
much so that I don't want to geton my car to go.
Get my food I'll go through adrive-thru.
No better yet I'll call ubereats.
Soon we're gonna have robots,every thing.
This right like it's what youvisited earlier.
(24:34):
Yeah, so we despise discomfort,right?
So, and that's on, that's onjust feeling cold or not wanting
to be inconvenienced.
Talk about significantpsychological discomfort, right?
So many individuals that End uphaving what maybe call a full
fledged addiction, like youthere, in the grips of this
thing, trauma is somewhere intheir past.
(24:55):
Yeah so think about, from aseverity scale.
You know, psychological traumathat you haven't worked through,
you haven't dealt with thegrief you haven't gone through
yet and the constant need pullto avoid that pain, to avoid
that Pain.
So maybe it's a flashback,maybe it's seeing someone, maybe
it's the myriad of things thatcan trigger a negative
(25:19):
Psychological pain reaction ordiscomfort reaction.
And then my brain knows oh, wedon't like discomfort, we need
to avoid that.
Avoidance pieces is key.
And so what does it do?
Well, I know how to get usthere.
All right, at least know how tomake it stop for a while.
And so let's get back toalcohol.
So I'm gonna drink, I can go tothe bar, right, I can do this.
(25:42):
And then the insidious part ofthat is is then the addiction
becomes the Pain pleasureteeter-totter, because I don't
know how frequently you've beenlike just blackout drunk in your
life, sam, just kidding, butbut you typically physically
don't feel well afterwards, andthen, when you're up in the
morning, all of the things thatyou were drinking away.
(26:03):
Mm-hmm are still.
They are usually compoundedeven more right.
So now we have to deal withthat reality.
And then this is where thatshame element typically enters
in Is during that avoidancepiece, if it's not already there
, because now, now there issomething wrong with me.
Now looking, how could I do?
You know all and turn on allthe things, the horrible and
start so lower and then thatfeeds it right.
(26:24):
Yeah, it's this negative,insidious loop of, and that's
why that's why I was like, well,it's not really.
Just I want to get high or justwant to get drunk.
It that usually leaves a longtime ago and it's just.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I need to end off the pain.
So now just becomes a habit.
It was part of their daily life.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
Yeah, yeah, you know again thinking about that
bandwidth, it only consumes moreand more.
Right and only consumes more andmore, and the more shameful I
am or feel I shouldn't say Ifeel Um the less I'm gonna have
interactions with relationships,the less I'm gonna care about
job, the less I'm going to Again, we're gonna go Adam and Eve,
so we're gonna sew fig leaves.
We're gonna distance ourselvesfrom God because, well, he's
(27:03):
perfect and especially asChristians will look what he
saved me from.
How could you know what I mean?
And then yeah, and then we'rejust hitting that loop over and
over again.
And so not from a DSM criteriastandpoint.
That's why I like the term oridea of addiction Is because I
think now, the more that weunder understood it and we owe a
lot of that to neuroscience onthe past several years is, um,
(27:27):
it really can be more thingslike if we look at it from,
limkey would say that plainpleasure, pleasure, teeter,
totter, um, and how weunderstand that.
You know, dopamine system, thatis um.
That's a good point too.
So the dopamine is, it's noteven I'm not even using at that
point.
This was, this was early on,right after I got out of school
(27:49):
right and I be heroin drug userman.
Young girl.
Oh goodness, um.
She said, louis, I relapse aweek before I ever put a needle
in my Hand and again raised inthe 80s.
I was like, no, you're only anaddict when you're injecting.
And she walked me through thetime and then further research
and study on my own was likeshe's.
She was adequately explaining.
(28:10):
This whole dopaminergicsituation she found herself in
is the.
It's anticipation of bothdirections.
It's the anticipation of pain,because our brain Thank you, dr
Huberman is a massivelyefficient prediction machine.
I know it's coming.
I have to believe that.
I know what's coming, that Ican.
Who wouldn't say this out loud?
But I, I can tell the futureright.
(28:31):
I know that that interaction isgoing to leave me hurting.
I know that, um, those peopleare gonna think this way about
me.
I know that I've got thiscriminal record.
Now, as most people strugglewith addiction do, no one in
society is gonna care about me,so it's not even necessarily
being confronted with the pain.
It's the anticipation of thepsychological pain which can
(28:53):
kick this in, and then thatdopamine Back to our earlier
reference of that young lady was.
I don't even need to stick tothe middle of my arm.
It is the anticipation ofgetting there.
It's calling the dealer.
It's wondering when he's gonnashow up.
It's it's scrambling to get themoney.
It's doing all these things,yeah, because we know that
alcohol and other chemicals andsubstances like that, uh, we
(29:15):
never get that initial high.
That's why they call it chasingthe dragon window heroine,
opioid users, because that,whatever that initial high was,
whenever we felt that Petepleasure, they're never able to
replicate that.
And so again to, to kind of.
I would use this tosubstantiate my argument for the
why this is an accurate modelIs because pleasure left a long
time ago that high that we saywe're chasing or not, we are
(29:38):
stuck on the loop, or the that Ican say that insidious cycle of
avoiding pain.
And anticipating that it'scoming and brain stepping in and
being like I got us, I'llprotect us.
I got us, I know how to get usthere, and um, and oftentimes
it's the.
The best thing that happens tosomeone who's, like I said, this
(29:59):
deep in addiction is theanticipation of getting there.
It's the drive to the bar, it'sthe um, yeah, we've got, we've
had such a spike in like all theWe'll say things around like
sexual compulsive disorders.
Or sexual compulsive typebehavior, uh, lately, and I
think it pays serious credenceto this right.
(30:20):
Yeah, and so the act of itself,whatever sexual act that
they're engaging in um In someway shape or form, is involving
them physically, but so much ofit is to lead up to it, I mean I
can have.
I can have people in greatdetail be like I just I can't
delete the app.
I've got to stay on whateverapp.
That is that is a snapchat, orwhether it's an actual app
design for, you know, hooking upwith people, but it's, it's
(30:43):
that little hook that keeps mecoming back.
So it's not actually the timethat I interface with a person
or you know, fill whatever,whatever act I'm ultimately
going to do, it's all of thatbuild up, it's all that initial
dope.
I mean that that lead up to it.
So sorry, ramble, no no, it'sgood ways there yeah but that I
mean.
(31:03):
again back to how I got here.
Well, I Was seeking, in a lotof ways, selfishly and
pridefully, I wanted tounderstand, I want to know, and
now I believe, and I've seenenough in my own life and lives
of the I don't gosh probablyhundreds or thousands of clients
I've worked with, to be, like.
This is what.
This is what's going on.
Yeah this is what is happeningand this is that insidious cycle
(31:24):
that we get pulled into, thatwe, that we just keep feeding.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Yeah, absolutely no, and I appreciate you sharing the
Neuroscience part.
Yeah, because I think thequestion now that becomes even
more real is well, god createdus this way, you know.
God created us to have dopamineand, and dopamine in its proper
use, I guess we could say issupposed to be there or Positive
(31:51):
things.
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Why is the thing that's meantto be good for me dopamine,
feeling good right, the pleasure, seeking out, the pleasure in
things that are pleasurable.
Why do I feel that when I amAddicted to something?
Why don't I feel pain in theaddiction?
(32:12):
But, if I'm understanding youcorrectly, that is part of the
balance is that there's pain andthen there's pleasure, and
you're using one to get rid ofthe other, in a sense.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
And, like said, oftentimes pleasures left and
it's really just that pursuit.
That don't mean is the pleasureYou're gonna derive from that,
it's just a pursuit of that.
It's not even there anymore.
That yeah.
I is not there.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I'm.
I thought that was a reallygood point.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
I think to answer.
The question too is Well, howcould God do this?
Why would he create us this wayand all?
He created everything perfectand in its time, right.
And so we're humans and wehuman it up, you know, and then
we, we take it and we, yeah, we,we pervert it in some way, or
it's again.
It was gonna be a fall too,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:58):
And I think that's what.
I think that's really whatwe're, what we're seeing, and I
remember someone sharing a longtime ago.
They said you know what healthylooks like is?
What is what we picture beforethe garden, before the fall and
the go.
Yeah, what's unhealthy iseverything that followed after
that.
I mean immediately, you see theimpact of it, with Killing able
and so on.
(33:18):
But the question is what do we?
What do we want that to looklike?
We won't have that here, right,it's gonna be in our perfect
bodies when we go to heaven.
For those of us who havebelieved in Christ, that's gonna
be our eternal home in ourbetter bodies.
But for now, as Christiancounselors and as Christians,
how do we help people?
So there's people who arelistening right now, who are
(33:38):
thinking about maybe inaddiction that they're currently
having and it's affecting theirrelationship with God.
What, what can we share withthem that can give them hope?
We talked a little bit aboutthat, like you know, maybe
defining it in your life, sayingthat it is an addiction, maybe
that can provide the whole good.
Maybe it'll cause some shame.
(33:58):
How do you deal with the shamethat comes after that?
So what?
What are some?
Some words of encouragement, ofwisdom they could share with
others about how to Attach toGod during this difficult time
where they feel like God doesn'twant to be close to them, like
they feel, like you know,they're a failure and that maybe
, even if they're not aChristian anymore.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Yeah, because there there was his name's escaped,
muted, a TED talk on it, but agentleman that kind of did a
self-study on addiction he had alot of his family's from the
United Kingdom was steeped inthis and the quote from him is
the opposite of addiction isconnection and I'd say that's,
that's the one.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
There's a lot of truth.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
He goes a little bit further than I would with it in
some kind of political andsocial spheres.
But there's a lot of truth tothat man.
Okay, and I would even say theopposite of addiction is
community like it's much to talkabout community.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
And they're eating and all about that.
Oh man, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
There's a big by nature of in virtue of how
they're constructed.
There's people who often saywell, there's no.
Where's the data?
Where's you know so?
I think, I was like, well, theyshouldn't exist.
You know what I mean.
Like, okay, they don't have anypeer reviewed published studies
, but tell all of the hundredsof thousands of people you know
that's not helpful, so anyway,oh, the opposite of addiction is
(35:15):
connection or communityrelationship right.
So addiction does that.
It takes more and more of yourbandwidth and devotes to it
again.
The pursuit of the consumption,of the aftermath of Whatever
we're engaging in.
So one which will bechallenging, obviously,
especially how far this hasprogressed, because the more
(35:36):
Consumed we are with something,the less we have of other things
we lose friendships we losefamily members.
There is one that never leavesus, though, and again it would
be hard, especially withProbably the compounding shame
that's going on, but he's, god'sthere, like Christ isn't
leaving us.
So I would say, not just achurch answer of like praying
(35:57):
more and faith, but that being aPinnacle of whatever recovery
is gonna look like for you, andthen, as well, community.
I don't know what thatcommunity looks like, because
there's so many Variants and somany different things that are
out there, but there are greatthings like a, a in a, sex
holics, anonymous, celebraterecovery.
(36:18):
They have great chapters allover the place here Thomas road,
freedom ministries.
There are a lot of good thingsabout them.
All of these kind of curriculumdriven 12-step peer recovery
groups can be good locations.
I will caution people and Ialways do when I sit them out.
It's like You're gonna go to agroup that's full of hurting
people or maybe even full ofpeople who are addicts, right,
so it's not necessarily a safeplace just to walk in there and
(36:41):
assume that everyone's going tobe safe, that's true, but they
are.
There are great communities andthere are great people within
those communities and as well asthe lives and Relationships
that you have or maybe had thatwere abandoned.
Some of them, unfortunately,are not gonna be repaired
immediately, so we can take asmuch time, if not longer, that
they took to deconstruct.
To demand, yeah, but a largepart of it is going to be
(37:04):
community.
Yeah and it's going to be.
It's going to be againreclaiming a lot of that
bandwidth Mm-hmm in that all.
Now, if it's chemically related, especially alcohol, alcohol is
a drug that you know you candie from withdrawal Most of them
.
Just you feel like you want todie when you're drawing but
alcohol.
So if it is, if for the audience, if it is chemically related, I
(37:26):
would say it would definitelyworth speaking to a physician or
maybe even going to some sortof Crisis stabilization, medical
stabilization, if that's onboard, but that that can be a
hard first step, right, butsometimes a hard first step is
enough momentum to keep becauseit's going to be a long process
to like.
I don't.
That's good to know.
I don't.
I don't deceive anybody, likewhen I talked about like.
(37:48):
This is gonna be hard.
This is arguably going to bethe most difficult thing of your
life, but I can tell you it'sgoing to be worth it, because
the fact that you're it's reasonto your awareness and you're
willing to address it means thatyou can't keep doing this.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
Yeah, oh, and actually it's like family or
people who are close to thosewho are addicted that kind of
make that push for them to seekhelp right, or they reinforce
that, they become kind of, IGuess, reinforce just that
behavior by either allowing itto happen, I don't know what's,
I guess what's the rule forsomeone who is has a friend or
(38:22):
family member, because I thinkthat's, that's difficult to do
like how do I tell you know mydad, how do I tell my friend,
how do I tell my sibling thatthey have a problem?
because usually, from what Iunderstand addicts, they don't
see it as a problem initially.
Speaker 3 (38:39):
So what you don't want to do is.
Yeah yeah, give both sides.
Yeah, For some it depends on,like, the progressive nature and
whatever that person'srelationship is.
Because there's just so manypossibilities, I'll give a
generality.
Yeah and hopefully we can derivethings from that, and that is
if you see someone who is Fullyimmersed in whatever addiction
(39:03):
this is going on.
They're probably prettyisolated, right, right, again,
various stages, but generalgeneralizing here, just to be
able to See their humanity andright be like, and it's that
delicate balance of beingtransparent, being honest and
being compassionate, right, yeah, and so I'm gonna get on this
(39:25):
soapbox to me.
I'm like gosh, why does notevery church just have like an
addiction recovery program, ifnot Christians?
Who is better equipped to say Isee you, I know you're hurt, I
know, you know, I know I've hurt, I know of being captive, I
know of being shackled tosomething again, what thing that
(39:45):
is, you know, god only knows.
But so, man, yeah, anyway,sorry, and get back on my
soapbox and just turn it back tobeing the church man but um oh
sorry.
So that individual that believesor recognizes that someone they
know and care about is againmeeting them there In helping
walking with them.
So so much can be done Withgoing with someone to that
(40:09):
appointment or going withsomeone to that first meeting
that they're going to or aregoing with.
It's difficult becauseoftentimes people that are in
like, fully immersed in anaddiction, it's, it's, it has
kind of taken over thatchronicity and More of a disease
model mindset.
That's not the person you knewbefore.
(40:30):
Right, and you can think aboutthat.
Helps.
You can think about that too.
It's like you're not talking toLewis, you're not talking to
your friend.
That addiction has consumedmuch, if not all of that
bandwidth.
So, that's, that's the lensthrough which they're viewing
life, and so it can be.
It can be really hard, that canbe, but that might be a good
first step.
For Someone who loves or isfamily member, friend of someone
(40:53):
with addiction is to say, hey,if I want to, if I want a hope
of getting them back, then itmight be a lot of hard first
steps.
Yeah, but so that's what it is.
You see the humanity.
Have compassion and be honestwith them, right.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
That's good.
That's good and for the personwho is wanting to trust God
during this time.
Obviously, there's plenty ofexamples in scripture where God
has did a bunch of 180s wherechange people's lives.
You have a lot of testimonies,we have our own testimony,
people in the audience havetheir own testimonies.
So it's, it's possible, and Ithink somewhere along the way in
(41:33):
the midst of all that there'sthis loss of hope, and If you
could just speak a little bit tothat, you know how does someone
gain hope Throughout thisprocess, because it seems
never-ending.
Yeah, I don't know what theturning point is, but we touched
a lot on connection andcommunity.
You know, and I think even partof the AA statements is kind of
(41:53):
like this belief in God, or Iguess they use the word higher
power and so on.
But for those of us who arebelievers, you know Oftentimes
that that loss of hope is thehardest thing to get back, and
I'm just curious to hear yourthoughts like how, how do people
Regain that hope?
What?
Where do you see the shift inthe process of counseling or in
(42:17):
their stage of life, thatthey're in that and it's boom.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
That's now they're hopeful.
That's the question sayingyou're good podcast.
That is the question, and if Ihad that answer I would freely
share it with everyone like acure to cancer man.
Yeah, but you hit on the cruxof it is hope.
As long as there's hope, or aslong as we have the capacity to
hope, because sometimes it againthe addictions consuming
(42:40):
everything, then it's possible.
And that's what I would say toanyone struggling with it.
Anyone that's with someonethat's struggling through it is
long man.
We choked up, sam oh yeah.
Yeah, as long as there's air intheir lungs, right, god can
still move and as long as, aslong as we can continue to
(43:01):
strengthen ourselves To helpothers, have a pass to help
others and there's always hope,so All right.
What does it actually mean?
All right so yeah, find outwhat that is but, again.
That's that, approaching thatperson with Compassion and
humanity and being honest withthem, yeah, saying what is it?
You didn't wake up one day asan eight-year-old man by the
(43:25):
time I'm 24.
I want to have a criminal rapsheet as long, as my arm and be
have stolen and pilfered from somany people in my life that
everyone's cut me off, donethings like unspeakable things
to people into myself.
Mm-hmm just to get this,whatever it is, just get this
alcohol, just to get this stuffto cook up and shoot my arm.
(43:48):
No one did that, so maybe it isspeaking to that part of them,
that part of them that's stillalive.
It's good.
Speaker 1 (43:56):
Yeah, I, you know to your point about just kind of
like wolf, that that struck anerve somewhere.
And you know, we're talkingabout hope and I'm thinking now
About my mom and my uncle andone of my uncles.
He was just having to drink.
I I'd never Got drunk, I'venever drank excessively, yeah,
(44:19):
you know, and One of the reasonswhy is because I remember
seeing my uncle was so drunk andI hated how they were around me
, mm-hmm, and there were yearswhere you know, they were in and
out of jail and kind of doingall these different things and
and I told my mom, mom, stop,stop, stop helping them or stop
doing this stuff doing that.
So I was telling her and my momsaid, yeah, right, yeah, it does
(44:43):
get you.
She's like I'm gonna keeppraying and I'm gonna keep
hoping for him and things aregonna change.
And you know, today I can sharethat monk was changed and you
know it's it was crazy becausehe had said that before like
there's this aspect of no, I'mchange, I'm new, and then go
back to it.
I felt disappointed that ithappened.
But I remember that, not justhope for the person, but how
(45:08):
those around the person need tohold out that hope, because they
get tired, yeah, of wanting ahope, wanting to change, and
then you have the people aroundthem who can still instill that
hope.
So it just reminded me of thatand I'm thankful for that and
I'm glad that you touched onthat and and that hope.
And I think that this is gonnabe helpful to listeners because
(45:29):
that is a powerful thing,because sometimes we feel like
giving up on the people aroundus and I think it just
Re-emphasizes the point of thegospel right, christ came and
died for us in spite of, well,how we treated him, and now you
know we have the blessing to beable to minister to others by
(45:49):
seeing what he's done in ourlives and I just man thank you
so much for sharing from yourexperience and your insights and
bringing the data, which I love.
You know I love that and this is.
I think this is gonna be ablessing and I appreciate you as
a person, as a friend.
This is fun and this was good,so do another one.
(46:09):
Absolutely yeah okay, cool,remember the contract.
Yes, yeah 50%, that's what weagree on.
Speaker 3 (46:17):
Yeah, well, no, I appreciate you having me on,
appreciate you being willing toapproach this topic right.
Especially often tonight'sreligious circle, it's not one
that we want to do.
So, it's kind of courageous youdoing it.
Speaker 1 (46:35):
Thank you guys.
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