April 10, 2024 • 46 mins
Send Me Questions on Attachment
When we consider the blueprint of a man's soul, we often overlook the silent architects—the mentors who guide us through the labyrinth of life's challenges. Dr. James Honeycutt joins me on a profound exploration of mentorship and its inextricable link to spiritual and personal development for men. We unravel the tapestry of our own experiences to reveal how mentors, from our fathers to our academic guides, have been the weavers of our faith and understanding, especially for those of us who have felt the void of growing up in a fatherless home.
The journey of faith is seldom a straight path—it is a road marked with questions, reconstruction, and the search for authenticity. We recount our personal narratives of shedding military-influenced perceptions of masculinity to embrace diverse male role models who preach Christian nonviolence and pacifism. With Dr. Honeycutt's insights, we navigate the complex dance of deconstructing and reconstructing faith, uncovering the urgent need for strong, present mentors for the younger generation facing a barrage of new societal pressures.
But what does it truly mean to embody a healthy male role model in today's world? This episode delves into the intersection of Stoicism and Christianity, the importance of emotional strength, and the harmonious blend of humility and conviction in leadership. We reflect on how virtues like wisdom, courage, temperance, and justice can shape not just our personal ideals, but also how we perceive and relate to the Divine. Join us as we honor these silent architects and the profound influence they hold in sculpting men of faith, character, and empathy.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
all right, well, thanks everyone.
Welcome back to the godattachment healing podcast and
we're knocking out hopefully wecan knock out two episodes here,
but I have my good friend andfellow co-worker, licensed
clinical social worker, dr jameshoneycutt, visited me today and
we were talking about the needmen have for mentors.
(00:27):
What do you think about thistopic in general, james?
I think it's an important topic.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I know you and I have had conversations about it.
Outside of this, it seems likesomething that we continue to
see again and again come up,especially in research around
developmental issues and howfatherless homes or young men
growing up without fathers,higher rates of criminal
(00:55):
activity and addiction and otherthings.
But yeah, you can approach thisfrom a number of different ways.
Whether you're looking at froma religious perspective, yeah,
you can approach this from anumber of different ways.
Whether you're looking at froma religious perspective, it's
one of the things that Iremember when I did a training a
while back on whether or notindividuals who were raised
religious stayed in the religionof their family growing up, and
(01:17):
one of the biggest significantfactors that they found was
whether or not the father wasinvolved.
Yeah, so if they grow up withstrong men in their lives who
are active in their faith, it'sa much higher likelihood that
the children would stay in thefaith as well.
But oftentimes, you know, yousee churches full of women and
(01:42):
it's usually women leading a lotof these different areas in
ministry and education and stuff, because either the fathers are
minimally involved or notinvolved.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah, yeah, and we have the.
We often talk about the threepillars of society.
Right, we have the homeeducation system, and then we
have the church, and we'reseeing that decline in each of
those areas.
Now you might be asking well,what does this have to do with
God, attachment healing?
Well, when you think about God,usually you know, for us, as we
look at our fathers, we look atour mothers and, as men, you
(02:09):
know, if we don't have involvedfathers, emotionally involved
fathers, it's hard to see inScripture.
When we look at parts ofScripture that describe God's
goodness, His grace, His mercy,you know things that we
typically would associate to mom, but it's those things that we
have a difficult timeunderstanding about God in
Scripture because we didn't seethat with our fathers, and you
(02:32):
know.
So we might see the truthaspect, the disciplinary aspect
of God, and we get it, weunderstand it, but when it comes
to these other aspects that arevery important, especially in
culture today, we miss it, or alot of people miss it.
So I think that's why we werethinking about this topic.
You know why men need strong,godly men in their lives.
(02:54):
So mentors.
So we were talking not too longago about people that have
influenced us in our lives.
So it could be people that weauthors, that we read, it could
be pastors, it could have beenour fathers, could have been
many other people, but what doyou think were the biggest
influences, I guess, so far inyour life that you can mention?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Well, it's funny, I know.
When we talked about itinitially, I just kind of jumped
ahead to young adulthood andthe men that influenced me then.
I have come to believe, though,that maybe there's different
seasons of our lives wheredifferent men will come into our
lives in those seasons, ideally.
And I remember, even as a childyou know my dad's career
(03:37):
military, growing up in the AirForce.
You know we lived on differentAir Force bases and things like
that, and as a child I very muchidealized my father and I used
to say if I could be half theman my dad is.
You know that'll be something.
He was a young father, though,so he was very active with us
playing sports.
He was still able to do that.
You know I can't do that now.
You know.
But then when I got older andthen I went off to college and I
(04:00):
, you know, was a young gradstudent and therapist and things
like that, it was different menthat came into my life.
So, for example, you and I,when we had spoken before I
talked about several professorsthat really made an impression
on me and they were strongChristian men but they were at a
(04:21):
different level in theirdevelopment, not just
educationally, but they helpedme take it to the next level
myself.
You know, my dad was great asfar as instilling patriotism and
morals and hardworking ethicsand things like this and basic
skills, but he was not, hewasn't anywhere involved in
(04:42):
higher education or things thatlater interested me.
So he, you know, obviously wewere pretty limited in what we
could discuss.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Was he a believer at the time?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
He was not.
We were really raised and theywere agnostic.
I think if you asked my parentsthey would have said that they
were Christian.
But you know, we wouldoccasionally go to church and
things like that, but we movedso much that was part of being
in the military and there wereyears of my life where he was
stationed remote assignments,you know, in Alaska or Korea or
Portugal or something.
So that plays a role as well.
(05:15):
But I think that when I got intocollege and I was a young
Christian, I had just beenbaptized and became a Christian
at the age of 20.
So I had a pretty drastic turnin my life at that point as well
and seeing these men that cameinto my life and I mentioned by
name when we had talked beforebut in college and grad school
(05:36):
and stuff and just reallyfeeling a lot of gratitude later
in life.
They were there at thatstepping stone when I needed
them to be.
And I think there are men inour lives and around us if we
take the time to look and investin those relationships, because
there's so much wisdom that alot of these people have.
My wife and I were just talkingearlier today about how so many
(05:59):
people will just resort to chitchat, just basic superficial
conversations.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Only for a little bit .
I can't leave the small talkfor a little bit.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I'm right there with you.
I have a low tolerance for thatbecause I'm introverted by
nature and so we spend all daylistening to people you know
talk.
So if I'm going to invest intime to do that outside of work,
it has to be something likesubstantial.
Yeah, invest in time to do thatoutside of work.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
It has to be something like substantial, yeah
, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
So you know when you can find people like that and
there are, you will find thosegems if you look for them.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Not just, you know, men, but all people who can
really have something tocontribute at different stages
of our lives yeah, and I wonderdid you realize that they were
having that type of influence onyou at that time, or was it
like a reflective piece later onthat you're like man?
They really were there for meat a very trying time or a very
difficult time or a very goodtime in my development.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
That's a great question.
I think that I had a suspicion.
I had a sneaky suspicion thatthey were getting past my
defenses and affecting me on acore level that I wasn't even
fully aware of at the time.
But it really kind ofgerminated later and I realized
in retrospect how much theyinfluenced me.
I know I felt a lot ofappreciation for it and I
(07:16):
expressed it at the time, buteverything was so new and a lot
of my energy and capacity wasjust trying to process all these
new ideas that I'm beingexposed to and this new faith
that I had just really embracedin my early 20s and that, I
think, took up a lot of my timeand energy.
So it was later on.
I look back and especially whenyou get older and you're
(07:38):
comparing, maybe men that youhave in your life to men, that
unique men that came along, andyou realize just the contrast of
just how important they were.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, yeah, you know you displayed something very.
That's part of God attachmenthealing, which is the
compensation theory.
And the compensation theorysays that whatever you felt you
lacked as a child, god fulfillsfor you.
When you come to him later onin life, when you have that
reflective piece to him later onin life, when you have that
reflective piece, you reflectback on your life, right, and
(08:08):
what was I doing?
And then you come to the Lordand he just kind of fills those
missing pieces in your life.
Those who grew up in the churchthey have what's called a
correspondence theory, which iswhatever experience they had
with their parents.
They kind of carry that intoadulthood and reflect the same
characteristics with God.
So if their parents weredegrading, harsh, critical,
(08:29):
judgmental, then they will growup and see God as critical,
harsh and judgmental.
If they had parents who werecaring, loving and attentive,
then they will see God in thatsame way.
Did you experience God in thatway when you came to the Lord
later on?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, experience got in that way when you came to the
Lord later on.
Yeah, it's funny that youmentioned that, because I think
early on I had this naiveunderstanding that I had to.
I had to know everything Like.
I had to figure it all out.
Uh, part of that was because myupbringing and you're a natural
study.
You love reading, but again, youknow you're talking about the
(09:04):
traits that we inherit, pass on,you know, on from our parents
to us and things like that.
My dad was real strict ongrades.
He was a good student.
He really pressed that in on usto do well in school.
But you know, we also hadfamily members that were around
us who had anger issues.
I was surrounded by men withanger issues and so it made
sense that my view of God waskind of a punitive.
(09:27):
You better have this figuredout.
If you step out of line, I'mgoing to smite you.
So it was.
Yeah, I joke with people.
When I graduated college I'dstudied religion and philosophy.
My dad asked me at graduationso what did you learn?
I said humility, because I wasunder this ridiculous concept
that I was going to grow so holyin my studies that I was going
(09:49):
to float across the stage andreceive my diploma with this air
of holiness halo around me.
So, yeah, I think that that waskind of my conception of God
that I came into my earlyChristian life with, and it was
largely based on many of theauthority figures that I had
known growing up.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And from the so, from the men that you did that start
getting involved in your life,did anyone show you like a
different part?
So you said, growing aroundangry men, were there men who
were caring, intellectual, like,who were the men that were
surrounding you around that timeLike a character characteristic
, wise?
Speaker 2 (10:26):
You mean when I got into college?
Speaker 1 (10:27):
and older.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Uh, yeah, it was very different than keeping in mind,
like I said, you know, when yougrow up in a military family
and any of your listeners whohave ever grown up in like
missionary families and militaryfamilies you kind of become a
little um, I don't know, yoursupport system, really becomes
just the nuclear family, becausemy brother and my parents were
(10:49):
the only consistentrelationships, your friendships
and familiar sites andsurroundings.
They change, you know, prettyfrequently.
So the male image was reallyjust my dad as far as a
consistent male figure in mylife and occasionally we would
go visit grandparents and stuff,but they were pretty minimally
connected and you know unclesand things.
(11:10):
But yeah, when I got older Iwas exposed to a very different
type of male presence.
You know, professors, like I'dmentioned a little bit before,
just their, the things that theyhad prioritized and just their
sense of inner balance that theydisplayed.
You know, and I'd mentioned, Iwas coming out of the military
myself.
(11:30):
After high school I went in themilitary and then I went to
college because I couldn'tafford to go to college before
that.
And so here's this guy who wasplanning on going into the US
Marshals.
I went into the military, Ibecame a Christian.
You know, two to three yearsinto the military my whole life
changed in the sense of mydirection.
And now here I am going intostudying religion and philosophy
(11:52):
under these guys, some of whomare pacifists or advocates for
Christian nonviolence?
I'm thinking of one or twoprofessors in particular, and I
mentioned them because it was sodrastically different from
myself and they would challengeme.
But they were you know, therewere many, many things that were
said and done and that I couldkind of sit at their feet and
(12:13):
just be just kind of takingtheir wisdom and chew on it,
reflect on it and think.
You know, this is so differentfrom anything I've been exposed
to.
And you know, later, when Iwent into, I was working and did
my internship at VanderbiltCounseling Center and they would
(12:39):
send the divinity students tome because of my background in
religion and what I had known tobe true when exposed to new
information and new concepts,having to reevaluate some of the
most foundational things of whoI am as a person and what I
believe Absolutely, which isterrifying it is.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
It is, and yet it's also become something very
popular among I guess you'd saywhat millennials and Gen Zers,
where deconstruction is a bigpart of their life, but it's
different than it was before,and I don't know if that's
because of the lack of rolemodels or not, but there is this
(13:16):
aspect of deconstructing foreither the sake of it, just to
do it, because everyone's doingit, or because they really are
having a struggle withunderstanding their faith in
this new, challenging way, andthey don't know what to do with
that, with the torn down partsto rebuild, cause that's
typically what happens right andthat's happened throughout
history, where people who havequestioned their faith, they
(13:38):
question it, get clear on theiranswer and then build it back up
.
I don't know if you're seeingthe same thing today especially,
we work with college students,so we're seeing a little bit of
both, maybe the same thing todayespecially we work with college
students, so we're seeing alittle bit of both maybe.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Well, and when you first started talking about that
, I have to admit that I thinkit's actually more difficult
today because at least when Iwas coming up, and you know, I
mean I was born in 1976.
So when I was in college andstuff, it was still the 1990s
and early 2000.
So I think that at that timethere's a little bit more
stability around me, Like Ididn't worry so much about what
(14:11):
society believed was true orfeeling some sense of security,
moving forward and things likethat.
But I hear it from a lot of theyoung people today it's one
thing when you're going throughthat deconstructive process and
just dealing with that alone,which is difficult, but then you
add to it the social pressuresand concerns and worries and
this.
(14:31):
You know what is true and howdo we understand all these hot
topics that are now out?
and about and you got riots andpandemics and all these
different things going on.
It just adds a whole level ofchaos to it.
So the context in which you'retrying to process these things
feels a little bit more intense,I think.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, and the family was more stable at that time.
So when we talk about fathersand we talk about men in general
, so what's the?
I wonder what you see as thegreatest weakness?
I guess for men is todaybecause we're trying to find men
to look up to right, we want tofind mentors, and I have heard
this from some students, whereeither they just don't feel like
(15:11):
they connect with these men orthey don't see anyone who they
can aspire to be.
They grew up in a single parenthome with the, which was mainly
with mom.
Maybe that was not as involved,so they don't really have a
clear idea of what even to lookfor.
So I'm wondering if it's theolder men.
I think even the scriptures talkabout this right Of how we
(15:32):
should respect our elders, theolder men, and receive their
teaching.
So that seems to be lacking.
I remember we would go to thepark and you'd have fun just
talking to an older man thereand he would just give you
wisdom, and now it just seemslike we don't care about their
wisdom.
We just want to do whatever wewant.
So there's this aspect on bothsides.
Maybe the older person alsofeels like they can't give them
(15:55):
anything or that they don't wantto receive their wisdom, and
the younger ones feel like, well, you don't have anything to
teach me, so I'm just going todo whatever I want right and
learn the hard way.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
But I do see that a lot in culture and it's kind of
sad, honestly it is, and I thinkit's kind of a mixed bag, you
know, because I even individualswho may want to share their
wisdom.
Like you know, you get theanalogy of going to the park and
talking.
It's like now you talk to astranger at the park and you're
thinking you're gonna getaccused of like saying something
inappropriate, or the parentscan be so paranoid let them talk
(16:27):
to anybody other than you knowtheir little friends and uh so
there's a little bit more and Ithink this gets back to what I
was saying about just a littlebit more, um, paranoia and a
sense of chaos, a little bitmore in culture, um.
So I I do think that adds to it.
You asked a very open-endedquestion about what's kind of
(16:49):
the main concern regarding maleleadership and men and stuff
like that.
I think that that's a verylayered question because we
could approach that from anumber of different ways.
I doubt we'd have time to getinto even a fraction of it.
I'm a big fan of.
Thomas Sowell, have you heardof him Okay so.
I mean he would obviously comeat this from a financial
(17:09):
perspective and talk abouteconomics and you know the
development of the economy andwelfare state and how a lot of
that affected the male role inthe house when, for example,
like he would talk about early20th century, you know in a lot
of the minority neighborhoodsthere was stable families and
you know it was only later on,with some of the changes in
(17:29):
government policy that he atleast attributes to directly
having an impact on the no rolemodel.
That's just one of manyexamples.
You know, and we've alreadytalked a little bit more about
just a sense of distrust withpeople.
And some of it is warranted.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I think some of it is warranted but we, some of it is
warranted but we, you know,working with college students,
we hear a lot about, uh,hesitancy to date and you know
more and more people are movinginto um wanting to get married
but afraid that they won't beable to get married, or they're
having a hard time findingpartners and using dating apps
and all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
So I think literally just had a conversation I have
to deal with.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
You know growing up.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Yeah, it's definitely changed the dynamics and we
have more access to information.
So, even if there are peoplethat we're wanting to gain
wisdom from, we have socialmedia.
So all you do is just follow aperson that you like.
You have that, but it stilllacks that person to person
connection, which I think iswhat we still need to be
focusing on, but, I guess, forthe audience, so they can
(18:31):
understand or see something alittle better.
If you've never had exposure towhat a healthy male figure looks
like, maybe we can help themlook for certain characteristics
of what a healthy male rolemodel looks like, because we
want both of what a healthy malerole model looks like, because
we want both strength and theability to care for people.
Well, right, and they both feedinto each other.
(18:53):
Right, in order for me to carefor someone, well, I need to be
strong.
In order for me to be strong, Ineed to learn how to use that
strength to care for others.
So it seems that today theylean on one side or the other,
right.
So you have this hypermasculine man who's just very
dominant, very controlling, verydemanding.
So you have that part.
And then you have the other onewho's super passive, not really
(19:13):
motivated to do anything, andpeople are going to lean towards
whatever they've seen growingup.
So what does a healthy malerole model look like?
And this is important becauseit's going to set the stage for
how are we experiencing God?
Right, we call this the Godimage.
How you experience God in arelationship is different than
(19:35):
your God concept, which is howyou understand God.
You know, for me, I had a verygood God concept, like I knew
the Bible.
I knew what the Bible saidabout God, but I didn't have
that experience of what is arelationship with Jesus actually
look like.
But I didn't have thatexperience of what is a
relationship with Jesus actuallylook like until I got older and
experienced relationships withprofessors or just mentors who
taught me that they justlistened.
(19:57):
I never knew what that was like.
It was just, basically, if Godsays, do this, I do that.
But there's the relationalcomponent to it and that was.
I'm very thankful that I, thatGod put men in that season, both
seasons in my life, tounderstand those different
aspects of him.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah, and I think you were blessed to have that.
It's not something thateverybody has.
Yeah, that's true, and man,you're asking these tough
questions I really are Becauseyou know, again, we could go a
number of different ways withthis.
You asked what characteristicsdo we look for in healthy,
strong men?
And you know, of course,anytime you ask that question,
(20:33):
you're going to get a biasedresponse.
I'll try to be as balanced as Ican in this perspective because
I acknowledge you know again mybackground I tend to defer a
little bit more towards thattypical stereotypical masculine
you know strong, you knowsupporter, protector, things
like that.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Which are all good?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, which is all good Absolutely, but you know,
of course, any extreme is goingto be unhealthy in that way.
But you know, we believe thatGod embodies both the best of
masculine and feminine qualitiesand that he created male and
female to be complementary inthat way and to exhibit,
naturally you know, traits thatare different but complementary
in that way, and to exhibit,naturally you know, traits that
are different but complimentaryin that way.
I think, as far as just lookingat male leadership, one of the
(21:13):
things male, healthy male rolemodels, one of the things I
think people should seek out, ismen who are solid in what they
believe, like they have a goodbelief, well-formulated belief
system, a worldview that theyhave spent time reflecting on,
but not rigid in the sense thatI can say this is what I believe
(21:38):
in.
This is why I believe that, butI'm not going to become
reactionary and upset with youif you ask me questions that
even challenge my views, and Ithink that that is something
that is a little bit moredifficult to find.
You can find people all day whohave lots of opinions.
Some people will get veryaggressive with those opinions.
It's hard to find someone who,like the truly wise person, is
(22:01):
someone who says I have spentthis time investing in myself
and understanding these things,but I always remain open to the
possibility that some of thiscould be wrong.
I might need to adjust it ortweak it.
And the best way to do that isto listen to other people with
different views, and by doing soit's that kind of iron sharpens
iron mentality.
So I think that having ahealthy male role model who can
(22:23):
listen attentively, respectfullydisagree with you, explain why
they believe what they believe,but also really interested in
passing what they know on toother people and I think you
know, conversely, it's difficultbut, I think, worth the effort
to also be a good student.
You know you talked about howI'm kind of a nerd.
(22:45):
I like to do education.
You obviously as well.
We're both pursuing moreschooling.
Who can deal with some of thefrustrations and the ignorance
(23:11):
and the I don't know apathysometimes that students exhibit
you know confronting that in ahealthy way, especially if that
person you're trying to teach isa family member or someone
that's going to be in your lifefor a long time.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's good, and I'm glad that
you mentioned that because itbasically sums up with this
aspect of humility, right.
And then there's this otherpart of being strong, and so
what does it mean for a personto be strong?
You and I have had aconversation about the Stoics,
right, and how they had thismentality where you know you
can't let your externalcircumstances affect how you
(23:45):
think or how you live your life,but rather understand your
emotions and be able to pressthrough trials and tribulations
and so on.
So they have this mentality,which makes a lot of sense, and
I'm wondering if any teachingfrom the Stoics contradicts
scripture.
It seems that a good amount ofit lines up with it, but are
there areas where I don't knowabout that, because this is
(24:06):
making kind of this.
I don't know if I would say it'strending, but there is this
idea of to be a stoic is to notlet anything around you bother
you.
But it gets to the point whereyou don't even feel your
emotions, and I think that'swhere men get confused.
They think that being a stoicnot letting your external
circumstances affect you is tonot feel anything.
So I think that's where I seethe leaning towards, but the
(24:31):
real part of it is that you areable to feel what you're feeling
and have dominion or some sortof control over it, or giving
that over to God.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, and I think you know, of course we we see that
all the time as a defensemechanism with clients where
they try to resort to eitherintellectualizing their problems
or numbing out to the point ofbeing indifferent, like you're
describing.
And you know you can paint overit and say, well, this is I'm
practicing Stoic philosophy, ifyou want to say that.
(24:59):
But I do think that the fourcardinal virtues of Stoic
philosophy, if I'm understandingthe writings correctly, you
know wisdom, courage, temperanceand justice.
Justice there you go.
So I think when you look atthose four virtues, we can say,
and especially as you read andkind of flesh them out in the
writings, you can say, yeah, alot of this really lines up with
(25:21):
the Christian worldview.
However, considering that theemperor Marcus Aurelius was one
of the great Stoic philosophersand he was also known for
persecuting Christians in histime, clearly there's not a
perfect balance, because you'dlike to think that if he said,
hey, they think a lot like I doand so maybe I shouldn't be
feeding them to the lions in thearena.
But I think there are some goodconcepts that we can take from
(25:44):
that that very much match withthe Christian worldview, that we
can take from that that verymuch match with the christian
worldview.
Uh, one of the things weconstantly deal with, you know,
whether it's in families, um,you know in our, in our work,
whether it's with employees andbosses and things, is this idea
of boundaries, right and sothat's one of the things that
stoics talk a lot about.
And, uh, this concept of knowingwhere your limits of control
(26:07):
end and things that are outsideof your control, not allowing it
to upset you, not allowing itto steal your peace, because we
can get upset all day aboutthings and vent and get
frustrated.
When it all comes down to it,it says, is that beyond my
control?
Is that, do I have any controlwhatsoever over this?
Or is there something I can doto perhaps open a door or see if
(26:29):
this could possibly change?
But recognizing, there comes apoint where I've done all that I
can do and then we have to.
Just, you know, as the stoicssay, amor fati.
You know, we just have to kindof love fate, love what we can't
control, and just embrace, uh,whatever comes of it.
And I think you know jesustalks a lot about that when he
speaks about anxiety Don't beanxious about tomorrow.
(26:50):
Understanding our limitations,you can't worry about these
things out of Cuba, to yourheight.
He talks about the birds andthe lilies and all the different
things around us.
Nature teaches us to live inthe moment, to trust in God and
to also recognize what is beyondour capability and our control.
(27:10):
And that can be difficultbecause we live in a world where
we very much want to controlthe world around us and other
people.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, especially when you have no
control of anything growing up.
So if you grew up in anenvironment where you felt like
you had no control, you don'trealize until you get older how
much you actually want tocontrol and how frustrating it
is not to be able to be incontrol of anything.
But yeah, I bring up the Stoicphilosophy because it's
something that's appealing.
I mean, it speaks to the flesh.
(27:37):
Honestly, when I hear like yeah, yeah, that sounds good.
And then, looking at scripture,then it teaches something that
may be more convicting for me,where I'm like I don't know if I
want to forgive, or I don'tknow if I want to go this route
or whatever the case is.
So it confronts us in adifferent way and that,
(27:57):
essentially, is this aspect ofsanctification.
What does that process looklike?
So when we talk about meninvesting in other men, we're
really talking aboutdiscipleship, right, and I think
the way that I've been able topicture it in my head is that
every person should have someonewho's older than them, kind of
mentoring them.
They should have a band ofbrothers around them, so two,
(28:18):
three people around them that'swalking the same stage, and then
someone who they're alsomentoring themselves.
So there's almost like thisingrained accountability for
that person who's surroundingthemselves with those men,
because the person who's aheadof you has walked life in maybe
a similar path but can speak toyou about hey, here's what you
(28:40):
could face on the next stage, sohere's how you can prepare for
it.
The ones who are going throughthings with you or who are in
your life stage, they kind ofunderstand, like you feel
understood, because they'reexperiencing similar things as
you are.
And those who are coming behindyou, you feel like, okay, well,
I've got had these experiences.
Is this something that I canpass on to someone else so I can
help them so that they don'tmake the same mistakes?
(29:01):
I do Right, do you see anywhere?
Well, I mean, we see it inScripture with Jesus discipling
his disciples and then they goon and do the same thing.
Paul and Timothy similar thing.
So it's biblical, this aspectof being able to mentor those
who are coming after us, andalso for those of us to seek
mentors and I don't know ifthat's emphasized enough to seek
(29:23):
out mentors.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
I think that's a really good point and I agree
with you.
I think that when we think ofChristianity, as one of my
theology professors used to say,christianity today has become a
thin veneer of religiouspractices that leave the heart
unchanged.
And I think that in order totruly be a disciple not just not
just say that we're Christiansand be these lukewarm Christians
(29:46):
who checks the boxes and maybesome external um, you know
behaviors and say, yeah, okay,I'm Christian.
But I think, in the sense, likeyou're saying, where we're
challenging ourselves, we'resaying, as I grow in
sanctification uh yeah, I'mgoing to have steps that I take
backwards and I'm going to havethings out of my control to the
(30:12):
point is that we get back oncourse and we continue that
sanctification process.
And I loved what you said aboutthat kind of chain where we're
mentoring other people,someone's mentoring us, and so
on and so forth, and it's great,if that works out, that you've
got both.
I'd love to have people that arementoring and people that are
mentoring me.
What I have found is thatdifferent seasons of my life I
(30:36):
might have one or none- that's agood point yeah that's true,
but I do agree with you.
I think that that process ofsanctification and growing in
holiness is not emphasizedenough as an essential component
.
Yes, of course we're saved bygrace, through faith.
We understand justification isthrough Christ and it's not
works-based.
However, of course the wholepassage of james, my namesake,
(30:58):
talks about.
You know, faith without worksis dead.
So this it has to be both inyou know as far as the
sanctification process and uhpart of that is taking it
seriously yeah, yeah, absolutelyyeah.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
And I'm thinking through your different men in
scripture that we would look atand we'd say you know, I think
sometimes we discredit peoplefor being human.
So I know a lot of people youknow will bash David for his
adultery, for the murder, andyet at the end of everything, as
we look back on his life, he'sdescribed as the man after God's
(31:34):
own heart.
Back on his life, he's describedas the man after God's own
heart.
And I wonder if that alsolimits our ability to just be
able to follow men who arehonoring the Lord and serving
the Lord, but also understandthat we don't put them on a
pedestal.
And I think there's a cautionthere for us that we appreciate
the men in our lives who haveinvested in our lives, but also
that we don't get to that pointof putting them on a pedestal
(31:55):
and not to expect ourselves whenothers put us on a pedestal,
because some people are verygrateful and they'll say, oh,
you changed my life and it feelsgood.
It does feel good.
But even as we go through that,we're reminded that first
example you gave about beinghumble, and part of being humble
is being able to acceptsomething that someone else
gives you, and then you passthat on to God Lord, this is
because of you.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Lord, someone else gives you and then you pass that
on to god.
Lord, this is because of you,lord this because of you.
Um, but yeah, I think those,those elements, play a key role
here.
You know, I'm reminded ofsomething like uh, there was a
book that john chris system, oneof the early church founders in
the late fourth or fifthcentury.
he wrote a book to pastors, liketo other people who are going
to be serving in churches andleadership, and he basically
said that's like, let praise andcriticism both roll off your
back.
And it can be.
We can have our ego stroke bypeople oh, you're the best thing
since sliced bread, and wedon't really want to build this
(32:44):
up.
And we have to do both becausewe can also have people that'll
be very critical and tear usdown, and not letting either one
affect us more than we should,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Absolutely.
This one guy gave the exampleof you should walk around in
leadership like this, bothfingers in your ears, because
you're going to hear both sidesand it's just a matter of which
one is louder or which oneyou're allowed to kind of affect
you.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think that we have to always
be on guard for that, you know,and the things that we we think,
not thinking too highly ofourselves, but at the same time
it's just like the christianwalk in general, holding an
intention that I can say both atthe same time that I'm a sinner
and yet at the same time, I'm aunique creation of god and that
I'm a.
I have an eternal spirit youknow it's just holding that when
(33:32):
you think about how amazinghuman beings are created in the
image of God and trying to growinto the likeness of Christ and
the work in Christ that was done, you really can start to think,
wow, we're pretty amazing thatGod would do that.
And then, on the other hand,holding the other side, also
intention.
I think that's true about a lotof things in our lives.
That's true and touching onthat point you mentioned,
(33:53):
holding both.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Yeah, yeah, now, we were talking about the uh
characteristics of men that arehealthy.
So humility was one of them.
Uh, strength was another one.
This is this kind of emotionalstrength to be able to manage
one's emotions.
But one thing I'd like to isconviction, like a, a person who
is willing to die for somethingthat they believe.
(34:16):
We see this with the disciples,right.
The whole point, or the wholestory of the gospel that was
shared by these men was they'rebeing discredited by some people
today.
They're saying, well, you know,they lied.
Would they lie about somethingthat actually didn't happen?
They're willing to die for that.
So that's a big argument forour faith is that these men die
(34:39):
Like what they saw, theybelieved and they were willing
to die for it.
So I think that's one elementof also a healthy male role
model is that they have a strongconviction about something,
anything, and it's good becauseit doesn't deter them from
whatever mission it is.
So if they love the Lord andthey're called to a certain
mission that God has for them,they're just committed to that.
(35:00):
Nothing deters them from that.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Well and it's funny you mentioned that because I do
remember the professors that Italked about earlier Someone had
asked me once what I thoughtseparated a good professor from
some of those great professors,and I said and you know, passion
comes from the Latin word,which means to suffer.
So it's the things for whichI'm willing to suffer, and
that's comes back to this ideaof conviction that you're
(35:23):
talking about.
So having passion, whether it'spassion in the concepts you're
teaching on, in philosophy andreligion, or whatever it may be,
passion for your family,passion for your faith, your
country that inspires peopleyeah yeah, if you're the guy
that's, you know, I mean willingto die for your comrades, you
know in war and you knowfighting alongside, you know men
(35:44):
and women in the armed forcesand things.
I mean that's.
We give medals to people likethat we, we respect and honor
people like that, and I thinkthat it doesn't have to be quite
so dramatic as well, sacrificecan also be.
you know the house mom who'smaking sure her kids are taken
care of and fed, and you knowteaching them and you know the
parents who do that and malerole models.
(36:06):
You know that they're takingtheir role as the leader and
priest of their family seriouslyand knowing that they're going
to be held to a higher judgmentbecause they have a
responsibility by god.
And how many men take thatseriously?
Even the men who stick aroundwe've talked about without male
role models, but even the oneswho stick around, how many of
(36:28):
them take that seriously and say, yes, this is truly a calling
to be a husband and a father andto do that well yeah, like
physically present, but notemotionally, spiritually,
mentally present there.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yeah well, we've talked about all the good things
, is there one?
Let's maybe say one or twocharacteristics are just red
flags, right, like if you seethis and man maybe that you
admire, or something like that.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Um, here's something to look out for yeah, you know,
we've been talking a lot abouthumility, so I would say,
obviously, the first thing comesto mind is pride.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah, hubris, uh what does that look like?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
I think it looks like individuals who don't have a
solid sense of themselves.
They're braggadocious, they'reeasily offended, they're
emotionally unstable, angry.
Those are individuals who don'thave a solid anchor in
themselves, and so they're.
As we've seen in psychology,their ego strength is pretty
(37:30):
poorly formed.
They'll have enough poor selfto really manage their own
internal system.
So I think that would be one ofthe biggest things that I saw
with poor male role modelsgrowing up was this, you know,
they would tend to resorttowards anger and criticism of
others and trying to tear otherpeople down to build themselves
up, and I think the healthyperson can look at that
(37:52):
individual and see right throughit.
But there's far more examples,I think, of unhealthy people
that will join in and then itbecomes kind of an echo chamber
where they all, just you know,agree with each other and
validated in their aggressionand pride and whatnot.
So, I think that is one of thebiggest risks.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
What would you say?
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yeah, I would agree with that, and pride is kind of
tied to this aspect of anger.
So someone who is justconstantly angry angry they
can't really enjoy anything intheir lives because there's
always something wrong right.
So someone who complains a lotlike that's also a big thing,
like they have no, um no, that'swhat I'm looking for sense of
(38:33):
what's within my control, what'snot in my control.
So there's this aspect ofthey're angry at everything
because everything's out oftheir control, or they're
complaining about everythingbecause the things that you're
complaining about are not withinyour control.
And it's really hard, it's atemptation it really is, to
become angry about the thingsthat are outside of your control
.
And I think there's a lessonthere for all of us about this
(38:55):
aspect of pride and being angry,just having this spirit of
anger towards everything andanything.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Yeah, I think that you kind of chuckled me because
I realize you know we work withcolleagues and I know I'll have
colleagues come into my officeand people that we work with and
they'll vent and get frustrated.
And I'm laughing because therehas to be and I'm that person
sometimes right.
We all get to that place and wewant someone to empathize with
us.
We want someone.
So I think that there is somedegree of empathy that might
(39:27):
look like you're joining andit's not becoming that echo
chamber I've talked about.
If somebody comes in andthey're, you know, complaining
in my office and they'refrustrated about something
they'd heard.
And I start talking about, well, your limits of control.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
You really shouldn't be upset about that Right, not
the best question.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah, who's gonna wanna come to?
Speaker 1 (39:44):
someone like that that's true.
That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
So it's finding that balance and recognizing our own
humility of I've been there andI've had these days where I'm
frustrated and upset and I knowmy wife is a good example of
that.
She's a great support system inthat way, because we'll all get
into those complaint modes.
But a healthy person and ahealthy man, it's not a regular
(40:06):
occurrence.
It's more the exception ratherthan the norm, and they usually
quickly snap out of it.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah, yeah, and that's true, and that's a big
part of it too, because we'renot looking at these one times
that it happened.
Because, yeah, to your point,we all do lose our cool.
I would say 90% of my time as adad is great, and then there's
the 10% where I'm like, ah, Ijust lose my cool, right.
So there's that aspect and Ilook at them like, ah, I still
want to do better, right.
(40:32):
But the spirit of anger, thespirit of frustration, the
spirit of complaining I thinkit's more so that so that's more
common than the other part,where it's more in the control
and is able to kind ofcommunicate clearly, whatever it
is that they're experiencing,and sometimes it's that like I
can't even communicate what Iwant to say and it comes out in
frustration, it comes out inanger and you know, speaking of
(40:55):
healthy male role models whenyou grew up and you don't know
what that actually looks like tocommunicate how you feel.
It comes out in different waysthrough stress, it comes out
through anger, comes out througha lot of different ways.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Well, and you mentioned something that I
wanted to mention earlier that Ithink really speaks to not only
what we should look for inhealthy male role models, but
also what we as men shouldstrive for as well, and that's
clarity of thought.
And that comes back to whatyou're saying, because I think
clarity of thought in the sensenot only of what I believe but
also, you know, as Christ talksabout taking thoughts captive.
And of course, there's a wholewing of psychology.
(41:30):
You know, cognitive therapybuilt on this idea that how we
choose to interpret things inthe lens through which we view
these different events in ourlives and adversity will
directly impact the way we feeland behave.
And so having clarity ofthought, not only already
pre-formulated and within us,that we've worked on it in the
sanctification process, throughprayer and worship and other
(41:53):
spiritual disciplines, so thatwhen times of testing come, we
find that we're well preparedfor it.
And so I think you know part ofthat is having a good sense and
appreciating how important itis to think rightly about things
.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
That's good.
And I have to say this one, justbecause you mentioned it and
you have shown this to me aswell that aspect of empathy,
because I think so, part ofbeing a healthy man, healthy
male role model, is havingempathy.
And here's the way that Ipicture it Someone who has
suffered greatly understands thesuffering of others, so they're
(42:31):
able to sit there with them,understand what they're going
through and just be there, be acalm presence in the midst of
their own storm.
And you know, and I'm thankfulfor that, you know for your
friendship and for being able toshow that to me, and I think
that's a big part for men toseek out other men who can
listen to you and just be therewith you and I think about my
sons too is like, when they'refrustrated, instead of me
(42:52):
getting frustrated in returnbecause they're frustrated, I
can sit there and calmly andjust ask questions, just kind of
help them regulate a little bitand just be there with them,
right, but there is that.
I think that's a big part of ahealthy male role model.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
And, if I can add to that just a little bit, I think
that sometimes we have this ideathat if I haven't suffered in
exactly the same way as thisother person, I won't understand
.
And I think that's a faultyview, because we can excuse
ourselves from being imperfector being available to people
because we might say, well, I'venever gone through that, so
(43:27):
it's not my place to be asupport.
They need to find someone who'sgoing through that.
or knows what that's like, ashuman beings we've all suffered
and we all understand loss andpain and things like that.
So I think that we can draw onthat experience, even if it
might not be exactly alike.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
Um, so I I just kind of would add that, because I
think we can use that to letourselves off the hook a lot of
times yeah if I haven'texperienced exactly what someone
else is experiencing yeah, and,and the lack of empathy is that
is, I don't want to feel whatyou're feeling, so I just
disconnect and pull back right.
Um, so it creates thatdiscomfort with actually feeling
(44:08):
emotions.
And I remember when I was firstlearning, just kind of like the
idea of god being just lovingand gracious for me is like yeah
, yeah, that sounds kind of weak, like I want to be tough Latino
background, you know that.
So there was those little gistof machismo.
I'm like this is not right.
But once you experience it withother people, you're like no,
this does line up with God'scharacter, this does line up
(44:29):
with how he treats his sons anddaughters, and you see it
through the Old Testament, yousee it in the Old Testament, you
see it in the New Testament.
He is present, he's calm andhe's there for us and he's able
to listen to our troubles.
So I think we covered a goodamount of why we need men
mentors, why men need mentors intheir lives, and how they can
(44:52):
help you understand these otheraspects of God that maybe don't
seem attainable to you or don'tseem to make sense.
Right, there's these aspects ofGod that might make more sense
to you.
See, if you can see the flipside.
So if you saw only the caring,loving and understanding part,
can you also see the justice,truth aspect of God as well,
(45:15):
that the truth needs to bedefended, justice needs to be
applied, whatever that lookslike in a certain situation, but
that you're able to find thatbalance between both.
So look for what is it you needright, and I think I needed to
see have men in my life who wereable to share, show caring,
understanding and patience, eventhroughout my own journey.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah, and I appreciate that we've talked
about this topic because I likehow we've touched on things that
we both experienced, but also,I think, what we would want to
look for in healthy male rolemodels to have as people in our
lives and also as men ourselves,how to embody that.
I get that looks like, you know, like kind of the goal to tell
(45:56):
us of what we strive to achieveourselves, and I think it's all,
it's both and it should be allof it.
So, yeah, lots of differentfactors that we've passed on and
hopefully somebody will gleansomething helpful from us.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
Yeah, absolutely I think they will.
We're going for man, all right,guys.
Well, thank you so much forjoining in today, and remember
to subscribe to the podcast.
If you've been listening, I'msure you have You're here today.
If this is your first time,you're free to subscribe and
also share with others.
Thanks for joining us.
We'll see you next time.
all right, well, thanks everyone.
Welcome back to the godattachment healing podcast and
we're knocking out hopefully wecan knock out two episodes here,
but I have my good friend andfellow co-worker, licensed
clinical social worker, dr jameshoneycutt, visited me today and
we were talking about the needmen have for mentors.
(00:27):
What do you think about thistopic in general, james?
I think it's an important topic.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I know you and I have had conversations about it.
Outside of this, it seems likesomething that we continue to
see again and again come up,especially in research around
developmental issues and howfatherless homes or young men
growing up without fathers,higher rates of criminal
(00:55):
activity and addiction and otherthings.
But yeah, you can approach thisfrom a number of different ways.
Whether you're looking at froma religious perspective, yeah,
you can approach this from anumber of different ways.
Whether you're looking at froma religious perspective, it's
one of the things that Iremember when I did a training a
while back on whether or notindividuals who were raised
religious stayed in the religionof their family growing up, and
(01:17):
one of the biggest significantfactors that they found was
whether or not the father wasinvolved.
Yeah, so if they grow up withstrong men in their lives who
are active in their faith, it'sa much higher likelihood that
the children would stay in thefaith as well.
But oftentimes, you know, yousee churches full of women and
(01:42):
it's usually women leading a lotof these different areas in
ministry and education and stuff, because either the fathers are
minimally involved or notinvolved.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Yeah, yeah, and we have the.
We often talk about the threepillars of society.
Right, we have the homeeducation system, and then we
have the church, and we'reseeing that decline in each of
those areas.
Now you might be asking well,what does this have to do with
God, attachment healing?
Well, when you think about God,usually you know, for us, as we
look at our fathers, we look atour mothers and, as men, you
(02:09):
know, if we don't have involvedfathers, emotionally involved
fathers, it's hard to see inScripture.
When we look at parts ofScripture that describe God's
goodness, His grace, His mercy,you know things that we
typically would associate to mom, but it's those things that we
have a difficult timeunderstanding about God in
Scripture because we didn't seethat with our fathers, and you
(02:32):
know.
So we might see the truthaspect, the disciplinary aspect
of God, and we get it, weunderstand it, but when it comes
to these other aspects that arevery important, especially in
culture today, we miss it, or alot of people miss it.
So I think that's why we werethinking about this topic.
You know why men need strong,godly men in their lives.
(02:54):
So mentors.
So we were talking not too longago about people that have
influenced us in our lives.
So it could be people that weauthors, that we read, it could
be pastors, it could have beenour fathers, could have been
many other people, but what doyou think were the biggest
influences, I guess, so far inyour life that you can mention?
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Well, it's funny, I know.
When we talked about itinitially, I just kind of jumped
ahead to young adulthood andthe men that influenced me then.
I have come to believe, though,that maybe there's different
seasons of our lives wheredifferent men will come into our
lives in those seasons, ideally.
And I remember, even as a childyou know my dad's career
(03:37):
military, growing up in the AirForce.
You know we lived on differentAir Force bases and things like
that, and as a child I very muchidealized my father and I used
to say if I could be half theman my dad is.
You know that'll be something.
He was a young father, though,so he was very active with us
playing sports.
He was still able to do that.
You know I can't do that now.
You know.
But then when I got older andthen I went off to college and I
(04:00):
, you know, was a young gradstudent and therapist and things
like that, it was different menthat came into my life.
So, for example, you and I,when we had spoken before I
talked about several professorsthat really made an impression
on me and they were strongChristian men but they were at a
(04:21):
different level in theirdevelopment, not just
educationally, but they helpedme take it to the next level
myself.
You know, my dad was great asfar as instilling patriotism and
morals and hardworking ethicsand things like this and basic
skills, but he was not, hewasn't anywhere involved in
(04:42):
higher education or things thatlater interested me.
So he, you know, obviously wewere pretty limited in what we
could discuss.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Was he a believer at the time?
Speaker 2 (04:52):
He was not.
We were really raised and theywere agnostic.
I think if you asked my parentsthey would have said that they
were Christian.
But you know, we wouldoccasionally go to church and
things like that, but we movedso much that was part of being
in the military and there wereyears of my life where he was
stationed remote assignments,you know, in Alaska or Korea or
Portugal or something.
So that plays a role as well.
(05:15):
But I think that when I got intocollege and I was a young
Christian, I had just beenbaptized and became a Christian
at the age of 20.
So I had a pretty drastic turnin my life at that point as well
and seeing these men that cameinto my life and I mentioned by
name when we had talked beforebut in college and grad school
(05:36):
and stuff and just reallyfeeling a lot of gratitude later
in life.
They were there at thatstepping stone when I needed
them to be.
And I think there are men inour lives and around us if we
take the time to look and investin those relationships, because
there's so much wisdom that alot of these people have.
My wife and I were just talkingearlier today about how so many
(05:59):
people will just resort to chitchat, just basic superficial
conversations.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Only for a little bit .
I can't leave the small talkfor a little bit.
Speaker 2 (06:09):
I'm right there with you.
I have a low tolerance for thatbecause I'm introverted by
nature and so we spend all daylistening to people you know
talk.
So if I'm going to invest intime to do that outside of work,
it has to be something likesubstantial.
Yeah, invest in time to do thatoutside of work.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
It has to be something like substantial, yeah
, yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
So you know when you can find people like that and
there are, you will find thosegems if you look for them.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Not just, you know, men, but all people who can
really have something tocontribute at different stages
of our lives yeah, and I wonderdid you realize that they were
having that type of influence onyou at that time, or was it
like a reflective piece later onthat you're like man?
They really were there for meat a very trying time or a very
difficult time or a very goodtime in my development.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
That's a great question.
I think that I had a suspicion.
I had a sneaky suspicion thatthey were getting past my
defenses and affecting me on acore level that I wasn't even
fully aware of at the time.
But it really kind ofgerminated later and I realized
in retrospect how much theyinfluenced me.
I know I felt a lot ofappreciation for it and I
(07:16):
expressed it at the time, buteverything was so new and a lot
of my energy and capacity wasjust trying to process all these
new ideas that I'm beingexposed to and this new faith
that I had just really embracedin my early 20s and that, I
think, took up a lot of my timeand energy.
So it was later on.
I look back and especially whenyou get older and you're
(07:38):
comparing, maybe men that youhave in your life to men, that
unique men that came along, andyou realize just the contrast of
just how important they were.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah, yeah, you know you displayed something very.
That's part of God attachmenthealing, which is the
compensation theory.
And the compensation theorysays that whatever you felt you
lacked as a child, god fulfillsfor you.
When you come to him later onin life, when you have that
reflective piece to him later onin life, when you have that
reflective piece, you reflectback on your life, right, and
(08:08):
what was I doing?
And then you come to the Lordand he just kind of fills those
missing pieces in your life.
Those who grew up in the churchthey have what's called a
correspondence theory, which iswhatever experience they had
with their parents.
They kind of carry that intoadulthood and reflect the same
characteristics with God.
So if their parents weredegrading, harsh, critical,
(08:29):
judgmental, then they will growup and see God as critical,
harsh and judgmental.
If they had parents who werecaring, loving and attentive,
then they will see God in thatsame way.
Did you experience God in thatway when you came to the Lord
later on?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Yeah, experience got in that way when you came to the
Lord later on.
Yeah, it's funny that youmentioned that, because I think
early on I had this naiveunderstanding that I had to.
I had to know everything Like.
I had to figure it all out.
Uh, part of that was because myupbringing and you're a natural
study.
You love reading, but again, youknow you're talking about the
(09:04):
traits that we inherit, pass on,you know, on from our parents
to us and things like that.
My dad was real strict ongrades.
He was a good student.
He really pressed that in on usto do well in school.
But you know, we also hadfamily members that were around
us who had anger issues.
I was surrounded by men withanger issues and so it made
sense that my view of God waskind of a punitive.
(09:27):
You better have this figuredout.
If you step out of line, I'mgoing to smite you.
So it was.
Yeah, I joke with people.
When I graduated college I'dstudied religion and philosophy.
My dad asked me at graduationso what did you learn?
I said humility, because I wasunder this ridiculous concept
that I was going to grow so holyin my studies that I was going
(09:49):
to float across the stage andreceive my diploma with this air
of holiness halo around me.
So, yeah, I think that that waskind of my conception of God
that I came into my earlyChristian life with, and it was
largely based on many of theauthority figures that I had
known growing up.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And from the so, from the men that you did that start
getting involved in your life,did anyone show you like a
different part?
So you said, growing aroundangry men, were there men who
were caring, intellectual, like,who were the men that were
surrounding you around that timeLike a character characteristic
, wise?
Speaker 2 (10:26):
You mean when I got into college?
Speaker 1 (10:27):
and older.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
Uh, yeah, it was very different than keeping in mind,
like I said, you know, when yougrow up in a military family
and any of your listeners whohave ever grown up in like
missionary families and militaryfamilies you kind of become a
little um, I don't know, yoursupport system, really becomes
just the nuclear family, becausemy brother and my parents were
(10:49):
the only consistentrelationships, your friendships
and familiar sites andsurroundings.
They change, you know, prettyfrequently.
So the male image was reallyjust my dad as far as a
consistent male figure in mylife and occasionally we would
go visit grandparents and stuff,but they were pretty minimally
connected and you know unclesand things.
(11:10):
But yeah, when I got older Iwas exposed to a very different
type of male presence.
You know, professors, like I'dmentioned a little bit before,
just their, the things that theyhad prioritized and just their
sense of inner balance that theydisplayed.
You know, and I'd mentioned, Iwas coming out of the military
myself.
(11:30):
After high school I went in themilitary and then I went to
college because I couldn'tafford to go to college before
that.
And so here's this guy who wasplanning on going into the US
Marshals.
I went into the military, Ibecame a Christian.
You know, two to three yearsinto the military my whole life
changed in the sense of mydirection.
And now here I am going intostudying religion and philosophy
(11:52):
under these guys, some of whomare pacifists or advocates for
Christian nonviolence?
I'm thinking of one or twoprofessors in particular, and I
mentioned them because it was sodrastically different from
myself and they would challengeme.
But they were you know, therewere many, many things that were
said and done and that I couldkind of sit at their feet and
(12:13):
just be just kind of takingtheir wisdom and chew on it,
reflect on it and think.
You know, this is so differentfrom anything I've been exposed
to.
And you know, later, when Iwent into, I was working and did
my internship at VanderbiltCounseling Center and they would
(12:39):
send the divinity students tome because of my background in
religion and what I had known tobe true when exposed to new
information and new concepts,having to reevaluate some of the
most foundational things of whoI am as a person and what I
believe Absolutely, which isterrifying it is.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
It is, and yet it's also become something very
popular among I guess you'd saywhat millennials and Gen Zers,
where deconstruction is a bigpart of their life, but it's
different than it was before,and I don't know if that's
because of the lack of rolemodels or not, but there is this
(13:16):
aspect of deconstructing foreither the sake of it, just to
do it, because everyone's doingit, or because they really are
having a struggle withunderstanding their faith in
this new, challenging way, andthey don't know what to do with
that, with the torn down partsto rebuild, cause that's
typically what happens right andthat's happened throughout
history, where people who havequestioned their faith, they
(13:38):
question it, get clear on theiranswer and then build it back up
.
I don't know if you're seeingthe same thing today especially,
we work with college students,so we're seeing a little bit of
both, maybe the same thing todayespecially we work with college
students, so we're seeing alittle bit of both maybe.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Well, and when you first started talking about that
, I have to admit that I thinkit's actually more difficult
today because at least when Iwas coming up, and you know, I
mean I was born in 1976.
So when I was in college andstuff, it was still the 1990s
and early 2000.
So I think that at that timethere's a little bit more
stability around me, Like Ididn't worry so much about what
(14:11):
society believed was true orfeeling some sense of security,
moving forward and things likethat.
But I hear it from a lot of theyoung people today it's one
thing when you're going throughthat deconstructive process and
just dealing with that alone,which is difficult, but then you
add to it the social pressuresand concerns and worries and
this.
(14:31):
You know what is true and howdo we understand all these hot
topics that are now out?
and about and you got riots andpandemics and all these
different things going on.
It just adds a whole level ofchaos to it.
So the context in which you'retrying to process these things
feels a little bit more intense,I think.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, and the family was more stable at that time.
So when we talk about fathersand we talk about men in general
, so what's the?
I wonder what you see as thegreatest weakness?
I guess for men is todaybecause we're trying to find men
to look up to right, we want tofind mentors, and I have heard
this from some students, whereeither they just don't feel like
(15:11):
they connect with these men orthey don't see anyone who they
can aspire to be.
They grew up in a single parenthome with the, which was mainly
with mom.
Maybe that was not as involved,so they don't really have a
clear idea of what even to lookfor.
So I'm wondering if it's theolder men.
I think even the scriptures talkabout this right Of how we
(15:32):
should respect our elders, theolder men, and receive their
teaching.
So that seems to be lacking.
I remember we would go to thepark and you'd have fun just
talking to an older man thereand he would just give you
wisdom, and now it just seemslike we don't care about their
wisdom.
We just want to do whatever wewant.
So there's this aspect on bothsides.
Maybe the older person alsofeels like they can't give them
(15:55):
anything or that they don't wantto receive their wisdom, and
the younger ones feel like, well, you don't have anything to
teach me, so I'm just going todo whatever I want right and
learn the hard way.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
But I do see that a lot in culture and it's kind of
sad, honestly it is, and I thinkit's kind of a mixed bag, you
know, because I even individualswho may want to share their
wisdom.
Like you know, you get theanalogy of going to the park and
talking.
It's like now you talk to astranger at the park and you're
thinking you're gonna getaccused of like saying something
inappropriate, or the parentscan be so paranoid let them talk
(16:27):
to anybody other than you knowtheir little friends and uh so
there's a little bit more and Ithink this gets back to what I
was saying about just a littlebit more, um, paranoia and a
sense of chaos, a little bitmore in culture, um.
So I I do think that adds to it.
You asked a very open-endedquestion about what's kind of
(16:49):
the main concern regarding maleleadership and men and stuff
like that.
I think that that's a verylayered question because we
could approach that from anumber of different ways.
I doubt we'd have time to getinto even a fraction of it.
I'm a big fan of.
Thomas Sowell, have you heardof him Okay so.
I mean he would obviously comeat this from a financial
(17:09):
perspective and talk abouteconomics and you know the
development of the economy andwelfare state and how a lot of
that affected the male role inthe house when, for example,
like he would talk about early20th century, you know in a lot
of the minority neighborhoodsthere was stable families and
you know it was only later on,with some of the changes in
(17:29):
government policy that he atleast attributes to directly
having an impact on the no rolemodel.
That's just one of manyexamples.
You know, and we've alreadytalked a little bit more about
just a sense of distrust withpeople.
And some of it is warranted.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
I think some of it is warranted but we, some of it is
warranted but we, you know,working with college students,
we hear a lot about, uh,hesitancy to date and you know
more and more people are movinginto um wanting to get married
but afraid that they won't beable to get married, or they're
having a hard time findingpartners and using dating apps
and all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
So I think literally just had a conversation I have
to deal with.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
You know growing up.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Yeah, it's definitely changed the dynamics and we
have more access to information.
So, even if there are peoplethat we're wanting to gain
wisdom from, we have socialmedia.
So all you do is just follow aperson that you like.
You have that, but it stilllacks that person to person
connection, which I think iswhat we still need to be
focusing on, but, I guess, forthe audience, so they can
(18:31):
understand or see something alittle better.
If you've never had exposure towhat a healthy male figure looks
like, maybe we can help themlook for certain characteristics
of what a healthy male rolemodel looks like, because we
want both of what a healthy malerole model looks like, because
we want both strength and theability to care for people.
Well, right, and they both feedinto each other.
(18:53):
Right, in order for me to carefor someone, well, I need to be
strong.
In order for me to be strong, Ineed to learn how to use that
strength to care for others.
So it seems that today theylean on one side or the other,
right.
So you have this hypermasculine man who's just very
dominant, very controlling, verydemanding.
So you have that part.
And then you have the other onewho's super passive, not really
(19:13):
motivated to do anything, andpeople are going to lean towards
whatever they've seen growingup.
So what does a healthy malerole model look like?
And this is important becauseit's going to set the stage for
how are we experiencing God?
Right, we call this the Godimage.
How you experience God in arelationship is different than
(19:35):
your God concept, which is howyou understand God.
You know, for me, I had a verygood God concept, like I knew
the Bible.
I knew what the Bible saidabout God, but I didn't have
that experience of what is arelationship with Jesus actually
look like.
But I didn't have thatexperience of what is a
relationship with Jesus actuallylook like until I got older and
experienced relationships withprofessors or just mentors who
taught me that they justlistened.
(19:57):
I never knew what that was like.
It was just, basically, if Godsays, do this, I do that.
But there's the relationalcomponent to it and that was.
I'm very thankful that I, thatGod put men in that season, both
seasons in my life, tounderstand those different
aspects of him.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Yeah, and I think you were blessed to have that.
It's not something thateverybody has.
Yeah, that's true, and man,you're asking these tough
questions I really are Becauseyou know, again, we could go a
number of different ways withthis.
You asked what characteristicsdo we look for in healthy,
strong men?
And you know, of course,anytime you ask that question,
(20:33):
you're going to get a biasedresponse.
I'll try to be as balanced as Ican in this perspective because
I acknowledge you know again mybackground I tend to defer a
little bit more towards thattypical stereotypical masculine
you know strong, you knowsupporter, protector, things
like that.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
Which are all good?
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Yeah, which is all good Absolutely, but you know,
of course, any extreme is goingto be unhealthy in that way.
But you know, we believe thatGod embodies both the best of
masculine and feminine qualitiesand that he created male and
female to be complementary inthat way and to exhibit,
naturally you know, traits thatare different but complementary
in that way, and to exhibit,naturally you know, traits that
are different but complimentaryin that way.
I think, as far as just lookingat male leadership, one of the
(21:13):
things male, healthy male rolemodels, one of the things I
think people should seek out, ismen who are solid in what they
believe, like they have a goodbelief, well-formulated belief
system, a worldview that theyhave spent time reflecting on,
but not rigid in the sense thatI can say this is what I believe
(21:38):
in.
This is why I believe that, butI'm not going to become
reactionary and upset with youif you ask me questions that
even challenge my views, and Ithink that that is something
that is a little bit moredifficult to find.
You can find people all day whohave lots of opinions.
Some people will get veryaggressive with those opinions.
It's hard to find someone who,like the truly wise person, is
(22:01):
someone who says I have spentthis time investing in myself
and understanding these things,but I always remain open to the
possibility that some of thiscould be wrong.
I might need to adjust it ortweak it.
And the best way to do that isto listen to other people with
different views, and by doing soit's that kind of iron sharpens
iron mentality.
So I think that having ahealthy male role model who can
(22:23):
listen attentively, respectfullydisagree with you, explain why
they believe what they believe,but also really interested in
passing what they know on toother people and I think you
know, conversely, it's difficultbut, I think, worth the effort
to also be a good student.
You know you talked about howI'm kind of a nerd.
(22:45):
I like to do education.
You obviously as well.
We're both pursuing moreschooling.
Who can deal with some of thefrustrations and the ignorance
(23:11):
and the I don't know apathysometimes that students exhibit
you know confronting that in ahealthy way, especially if that
person you're trying to teach isa family member or someone
that's going to be in your lifefor a long time.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's good, and I'm glad that
you mentioned that because itbasically sums up with this
aspect of humility, right.
And then there's this otherpart of being strong, and so
what does it mean for a personto be strong?
You and I have had aconversation about the Stoics,
right, and how they had thismentality where you know you
can't let your externalcircumstances affect how you
(23:45):
think or how you live your life,but rather understand your
emotions and be able to pressthrough trials and tribulations
and so on.
So they have this mentality,which makes a lot of sense, and
I'm wondering if any teachingfrom the Stoics contradicts
scripture.
It seems that a good amount ofit lines up with it, but are
there areas where I don't knowabout that, because this is
(24:06):
making kind of this.
I don't know if I would say it'strending, but there is this
idea of to be a stoic is to notlet anything around you bother
you.
But it gets to the point whereyou don't even feel your
emotions, and I think that'swhere men get confused.
They think that being a stoicnot letting your external
circumstances affect you is tonot feel anything.
So I think that's where I seethe leaning towards, but the
(24:31):
real part of it is that you areable to feel what you're feeling
and have dominion or some sortof control over it, or giving
that over to God.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Yeah, and I think you know, of course we we see that
all the time as a defensemechanism with clients where
they try to resort to eitherintellectualizing their problems
or numbing out to the point ofbeing indifferent, like you're
describing.
And you know you can paint overit and say, well, this is I'm
practicing Stoic philosophy, ifyou want to say that.
(24:59):
But I do think that the fourcardinal virtues of Stoic
philosophy, if I'm understandingthe writings correctly, you
know wisdom, courage, temperanceand justice.
Justice there you go.
So I think when you look atthose four virtues, we can say,
and especially as you read andkind of flesh them out in the
writings, you can say, yeah, alot of this really lines up with
(25:21):
the Christian worldview.
However, considering that theemperor Marcus Aurelius was one
of the great Stoic philosophersand he was also known for
persecuting Christians in histime, clearly there's not a
perfect balance, because you'dlike to think that if he said,
hey, they think a lot like I doand so maybe I shouldn't be
feeding them to the lions in thearena.
But I think there are some goodconcepts that we can take from
(25:44):
that that very much match withthe Christian worldview, that we
can take from that that verymuch match with the christian
worldview.
Uh, one of the things weconstantly deal with, you know,
whether it's in families, um,you know in our, in our work,
whether it's with employees andbosses and things, is this idea
of boundaries, right and sothat's one of the things that
stoics talk a lot about.
And, uh, this concept of knowingwhere your limits of control
(26:07):
end and things that are outsideof your control, not allowing it
to upset you, not allowing itto steal your peace, because we
can get upset all day aboutthings and vent and get
frustrated.
When it all comes down to it,it says, is that beyond my
control?
Is that, do I have any controlwhatsoever over this?
Or is there something I can doto perhaps open a door or see if
(26:29):
this could possibly change?
But recognizing, there comes apoint where I've done all that I
can do and then we have to.
Just, you know, as the stoicssay, amor fati.
You know, we just have to kindof love fate, love what we can't
control, and just embrace, uh,whatever comes of it.
And I think you know jesustalks a lot about that when he
speaks about anxiety Don't beanxious about tomorrow.
(26:50):
Understanding our limitations,you can't worry about these
things out of Cuba, to yourheight.
He talks about the birds andthe lilies and all the different
things around us.
Nature teaches us to live inthe moment, to trust in God and
to also recognize what is beyondour capability and our control.
(27:10):
And that can be difficultbecause we live in a world where
we very much want to controlthe world around us and other
people.
Speaker 1 (27:16):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, especially when you have no
control of anything growing up.
So if you grew up in anenvironment where you felt like
you had no control, you don'trealize until you get older how
much you actually want tocontrol and how frustrating it
is not to be able to be incontrol of anything.
But yeah, I bring up the Stoicphilosophy because it's
something that's appealing.
I mean, it speaks to the flesh.
(27:37):
Honestly, when I hear like yeah, yeah, that sounds good.
And then, looking at scripture,then it teaches something that
may be more convicting for me,where I'm like I don't know if I
want to forgive, or I don'tknow if I want to go this route
or whatever the case is.
So it confronts us in adifferent way and that,
(27:57):
essentially, is this aspect ofsanctification.
What does that process looklike?
So when we talk about meninvesting in other men, we're
really talking aboutdiscipleship, right, and I think
the way that I've been able topicture it in my head is that
every person should have someonewho's older than them, kind of
mentoring them.
They should have a band ofbrothers around them, so two,
(28:18):
three people around them that'swalking the same stage, and then
someone who they're alsomentoring themselves.
So there's almost like thisingrained accountability for
that person who's surroundingthemselves with those men,
because the person who's aheadof you has walked life in maybe
a similar path but can speak toyou about hey, here's what you
(28:40):
could face on the next stage, sohere's how you can prepare for
it.
The ones who are going throughthings with you or who are in
your life stage, they kind ofunderstand, like you feel
understood, because they'reexperiencing similar things as
you are.
And those who are coming behindyou, you feel like, okay, well,
I've got had these experiences.
Is this something that I canpass on to someone else so I can
help them so that they don'tmake the same mistakes?
(29:01):
I do Right, do you see anywhere?
Well, I mean, we see it inScripture with Jesus discipling
his disciples and then they goon and do the same thing.
Paul and Timothy similar thing.
So it's biblical, this aspectof being able to mentor those
who are coming after us, andalso for those of us to seek
mentors and I don't know ifthat's emphasized enough to seek
(29:23):
out mentors.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
I think that's a really good point and I agree
with you.
I think that when we think ofChristianity, as one of my
theology professors used to say,christianity today has become a
thin veneer of religiouspractices that leave the heart
unchanged.
And I think that in order totruly be a disciple not just not
just say that we're Christiansand be these lukewarm Christians
(29:46):
who checks the boxes and maybesome external um, you know
behaviors and say, yeah, okay,I'm Christian.
But I think, in the sense, likeyou're saying, where we're
challenging ourselves, we'resaying, as I grow in
sanctification uh yeah, I'mgoing to have steps that I take
backwards and I'm going to havethings out of my control to the
(30:12):
point is that we get back oncourse and we continue that
sanctification process.
And I loved what you said aboutthat kind of chain where we're
mentoring other people,someone's mentoring us, and so
on and so forth, and it's great,if that works out, that you've
got both.
I'd love to have people that arementoring and people that are
mentoring me.
What I have found is thatdifferent seasons of my life I
(30:36):
might have one or none- that's agood point yeah that's true,
but I do agree with you.
I think that that process ofsanctification and growing in
holiness is not emphasizedenough as an essential component
.
Yes, of course we're saved bygrace, through faith.
We understand justification isthrough Christ and it's not
works-based.
However, of course the wholepassage of james, my namesake,
(30:58):
talks about.
You know, faith without worksis dead.
So this it has to be both inyou know as far as the
sanctification process and uhpart of that is taking it
seriously yeah, yeah, absolutelyyeah.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
And I'm thinking through your different men in
scripture that we would look atand we'd say you know, I think
sometimes we discredit peoplefor being human.
So I know a lot of people youknow will bash David for his
adultery, for the murder, andyet at the end of everything, as
we look back on his life, he'sdescribed as the man after God's
(31:34):
own heart.
Back on his life, he's describedas the man after God's own
heart.
And I wonder if that alsolimits our ability to just be
able to follow men who arehonoring the Lord and serving
the Lord, but also understandthat we don't put them on a
pedestal.
And I think there's a cautionthere for us that we appreciate
the men in our lives who haveinvested in our lives, but also
that we don't get to that pointof putting them on a pedestal
(31:55):
and not to expect ourselves whenothers put us on a pedestal,
because some people are verygrateful and they'll say, oh,
you changed my life and it feelsgood.
It does feel good.
But even as we go through that,we're reminded that first
example you gave about beinghumble, and part of being humble
is being able to acceptsomething that someone else
gives you, and then you passthat on to God Lord, this is
because of you.
Speaker 2 (32:23):
Lord, someone else gives you and then you pass that
on to god.
Lord, this is because of you,lord this because of you.
Um, but yeah, I think those,those elements, play a key role
here.
You know, I'm reminded ofsomething like uh, there was a
book that john chris system, oneof the early church founders in
the late fourth or fifthcentury.
he wrote a book to pastors, liketo other people who are going
to be serving in churches andleadership, and he basically
said that's like, let praise andcriticism both roll off your
back.
And it can be.
We can have our ego stroke bypeople oh, you're the best thing
since sliced bread, and wedon't really want to build this
(32:44):
up.
And we have to do both becausewe can also have people that'll
be very critical and tear usdown, and not letting either one
affect us more than we should,yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
Absolutely.
This one guy gave the exampleof you should walk around in
leadership like this, bothfingers in your ears, because
you're going to hear both sidesand it's just a matter of which
one is louder or which oneyou're allowed to kind of affect
you.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
Yeah, absolutely, and I think that we have to always
be on guard for that, you know,and the things that we we think,
not thinking too highly ofourselves, but at the same time
it's just like the christianwalk in general, holding an
intention that I can say both atthe same time that I'm a sinner
and yet at the same time, I'm aunique creation of god and that
I'm a.
I have an eternal spirit youknow it's just holding that when
(33:32):
you think about how amazinghuman beings are created in the
image of God and trying to growinto the likeness of Christ and
the work in Christ that was done, you really can start to think,
wow, we're pretty amazing thatGod would do that.
And then, on the other hand,holding the other side, also
intention.
I think that's true about a lotof things in our lives.
That's true and touching onthat point you mentioned,
(33:53):
holding both.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Yeah, yeah, now, we were talking about the uh
characteristics of men that arehealthy.
So humility was one of them.
Uh, strength was another one.
This is this kind of emotionalstrength to be able to manage
one's emotions.
But one thing I'd like to isconviction, like a, a person who
is willing to die for somethingthat they believe.
(34:16):
We see this with the disciples,right.
The whole point, or the wholestory of the gospel that was
shared by these men was they'rebeing discredited by some people
today.
They're saying, well, you know,they lied.
Would they lie about somethingthat actually didn't happen?
They're willing to die for that.
So that's a big argument forour faith is that these men die
(34:39):
Like what they saw, theybelieved and they were willing
to die for it.
So I think that's one elementof also a healthy male role
model is that they have a strongconviction about something,
anything, and it's good becauseit doesn't deter them from
whatever mission it is.
So if they love the Lord andthey're called to a certain
mission that God has for them,they're just committed to that.
(35:00):
Nothing deters them from that.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Well and it's funny you mentioned that because I do
remember the professors that Italked about earlier Someone had
asked me once what I thoughtseparated a good professor from
some of those great professors,and I said and you know, passion
comes from the Latin word,which means to suffer.
So it's the things for whichI'm willing to suffer, and
that's comes back to this ideaof conviction that you're
(35:23):
talking about.
So having passion, whether it'spassion in the concepts you're
teaching on, in philosophy andreligion, or whatever it may be,
passion for your family,passion for your faith, your
country that inspires peopleyeah yeah, if you're the guy
that's, you know, I mean willingto die for your comrades, you
know in war and you knowfighting alongside, you know men
(35:44):
and women in the armed forcesand things.
I mean that's.
We give medals to people likethat we, we respect and honor
people like that, and I thinkthat it doesn't have to be quite
so dramatic as well, sacrificecan also be.
you know the house mom who'smaking sure her kids are taken
care of and fed, and you knowteaching them and you know the
parents who do that and malerole models.
(36:06):
You know that they're takingtheir role as the leader and
priest of their family seriouslyand knowing that they're going
to be held to a higher judgmentbecause they have a
responsibility by god.
And how many men take thatseriously?
Even the men who stick aroundwe've talked about without male
role models, but even the oneswho stick around, how many of
(36:28):
them take that seriously and say, yes, this is truly a calling
to be a husband and a father andto do that well yeah, like
physically present, but notemotionally, spiritually,
mentally present there.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Yeah well, we've talked about all the good things
, is there one?
Let's maybe say one or twocharacteristics are just red
flags, right, like if you seethis and man maybe that you
admire, or something like that.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
Um, here's something to look out for yeah, you know,
we've been talking a lot abouthumility, so I would say,
obviously, the first thing comesto mind is pride.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah, hubris, uh what does that look like?
Speaker 2 (37:09):
I think it looks like individuals who don't have a
solid sense of themselves.
They're braggadocious, they'reeasily offended, they're
emotionally unstable, angry.
Those are individuals who don'thave a solid anchor in
themselves, and so they're.
As we've seen in psychology,their ego strength is pretty
(37:30):
poorly formed.
They'll have enough poor selfto really manage their own
internal system.
So I think that would be one ofthe biggest things that I saw
with poor male role modelsgrowing up was this, you know,
they would tend to resorttowards anger and criticism of
others and trying to tear otherpeople down to build themselves
up, and I think the healthyperson can look at that
(37:52):
individual and see right throughit.
But there's far more examples,I think, of unhealthy people
that will join in and then itbecomes kind of an echo chamber
where they all, just you know,agree with each other and
validated in their aggressionand pride and whatnot.
So, I think that is one of thebiggest risks.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:11):
What would you say?
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Yeah, I would agree with that, and pride is kind of
tied to this aspect of anger.
So someone who is justconstantly angry angry they
can't really enjoy anything intheir lives because there's
always something wrong right.
So someone who complains a lotlike that's also a big thing,
like they have no, um no, that'swhat I'm looking for sense of
(38:33):
what's within my control, what'snot in my control.
So there's this aspect ofthey're angry at everything
because everything's out oftheir control, or they're
complaining about everythingbecause the things that you're
complaining about are not withinyour control.
And it's really hard, it's atemptation it really is, to
become angry about the thingsthat are outside of your control
.
And I think there's a lessonthere for all of us about this
(38:55):
aspect of pride and being angry,just having this spirit of
anger towards everything andanything.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Yeah, I think that you kind of chuckled me because
I realize you know we work withcolleagues and I know I'll have
colleagues come into my officeand people that we work with and
they'll vent and get frustrated.
And I'm laughing because therehas to be and I'm that person
sometimes right.
We all get to that place and wewant someone to empathize with
us.
We want someone.
So I think that there is somedegree of empathy that might
(39:27):
look like you're joining andit's not becoming that echo
chamber I've talked about.
If somebody comes in andthey're, you know, complaining
in my office and they'refrustrated about something
they'd heard.
And I start talking about, well, your limits of control.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
You really shouldn't be upset about that Right, not
the best question.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
Yeah, who's gonna wanna come to?
Speaker 1 (39:44):
someone like that that's true.
That's a good point.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
So it's finding that balance and recognizing our own
humility of I've been there andI've had these days where I'm
frustrated and upset and I knowmy wife is a good example of
that.
She's a great support system inthat way, because we'll all get
into those complaint modes.
But a healthy person and ahealthy man, it's not a regular
(40:06):
occurrence.
It's more the exception ratherthan the norm, and they usually
quickly snap out of it.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah, yeah, and that's true, and that's a big
part of it too, because we'renot looking at these one times
that it happened.
Because, yeah, to your point,we all do lose our cool.
I would say 90% of my time as adad is great, and then there's
the 10% where I'm like, ah, Ijust lose my cool, right.
So there's that aspect and Ilook at them like, ah, I still
want to do better, right.
(40:32):
But the spirit of anger, thespirit of frustration, the
spirit of complaining I thinkit's more so that so that's more
common than the other part,where it's more in the control
and is able to kind ofcommunicate clearly, whatever it
is that they're experiencing,and sometimes it's that like I
can't even communicate what Iwant to say and it comes out in
frustration, it comes out inanger and you know, speaking of
(40:55):
healthy male role models whenyou grew up and you don't know
what that actually looks like tocommunicate how you feel.
It comes out in different waysthrough stress, it comes out
through anger, comes out througha lot of different ways.
Speaker 2 (41:07):
Well, and you mentioned something that I
wanted to mention earlier that Ithink really speaks to not only
what we should look for inhealthy male role models, but
also what we as men shouldstrive for as well, and that's
clarity of thought.
And that comes back to whatyou're saying, because I think
clarity of thought in the sensenot only of what I believe but
also, you know, as Christ talksabout taking thoughts captive.
And of course, there's a wholewing of psychology.
(41:30):
You know, cognitive therapybuilt on this idea that how we
choose to interpret things inthe lens through which we view
these different events in ourlives and adversity will
directly impact the way we feeland behave.
And so having clarity ofthought, not only already
pre-formulated and within us,that we've worked on it in the
sanctification process, throughprayer and worship and other
(41:53):
spiritual disciplines, so thatwhen times of testing come, we
find that we're well preparedfor it.
And so I think you know part ofthat is having a good sense and
appreciating how important itis to think rightly about things
.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
That's good.
And I have to say this one, justbecause you mentioned it and
you have shown this to me aswell that aspect of empathy,
because I think so, part ofbeing a healthy man, healthy
male role model, is havingempathy.
And here's the way that Ipicture it Someone who has
suffered greatly understands thesuffering of others, so they're
(42:31):
able to sit there with them,understand what they're going
through and just be there, be acalm presence in the midst of
their own storm.
And you know, and I'm thankfulfor that, you know for your
friendship and for being able toshow that to me, and I think
that's a big part for men toseek out other men who can
listen to you and just be therewith you and I think about my
sons too is like, when they'refrustrated, instead of me
(42:52):
getting frustrated in returnbecause they're frustrated, I
can sit there and calmly andjust ask questions, just kind of
help them regulate a little bitand just be there with them,
right, but there is that.
I think that's a big part of ahealthy male role model.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
And, if I can add to that just a little bit, I think
that sometimes we have this ideathat if I haven't suffered in
exactly the same way as thisother person, I won't understand
.
And I think that's a faultyview, because we can excuse
ourselves from being imperfector being available to people
because we might say, well, I'venever gone through that, so
(43:27):
it's not my place to be asupport.
They need to find someone who'sgoing through that.
or knows what that's like, ashuman beings we've all suffered
and we all understand loss andpain and things like that.
So I think that we can draw onthat experience, even if it
might not be exactly alike.
Speaker 1 (43:46):
Um, so I I just kind of would add that, because I
think we can use that to letourselves off the hook a lot of
times yeah if I haven'texperienced exactly what someone
else is experiencing yeah, and,and the lack of empathy is that
is, I don't want to feel whatyou're feeling, so I just
disconnect and pull back right.
Um, so it creates thatdiscomfort with actually feeling
(44:08):
emotions.
And I remember when I was firstlearning, just kind of like the
idea of god being just lovingand gracious for me is like yeah
, yeah, that sounds kind of weak, like I want to be tough Latino
background, you know that.
So there was those little gistof machismo.
I'm like this is not right.
But once you experience it withother people, you're like no,
this does line up with God'scharacter, this does line up
(44:29):
with how he treats his sons anddaughters, and you see it
through the Old Testament, yousee it in the Old Testament, you
see it in the New Testament.
He is present, he's calm andhe's there for us and he's able
to listen to our troubles.
So I think we covered a goodamount of why we need men
mentors, why men need mentors intheir lives, and how they can
(44:52):
help you understand these otheraspects of God that maybe don't
seem attainable to you or don'tseem to make sense.
Right, there's these aspects ofGod that might make more sense
to you.
See, if you can see the flipside.
So if you saw only the caring,loving and understanding part,
can you also see the justice,truth aspect of God as well,
(45:15):
that the truth needs to bedefended, justice needs to be
applied, whatever that lookslike in a certain situation, but
that you're able to find thatbalance between both.
So look for what is it you needright, and I think I needed to
see have men in my life who wereable to share, show caring,
understanding and patience, eventhroughout my own journey.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
Yeah, and I appreciate that we've talked
about this topic because I likehow we've touched on things that
we both experienced, but also,I think, what we would want to
look for in healthy male rolemodels to have as people in our
lives and also as men ourselves,how to embody that.
I get that looks like, you know, like kind of the goal to tell
(45:56):
us of what we strive to achieveourselves, and I think it's all,
it's both and it should be allof it.
So, yeah, lots of differentfactors that we've passed on and
hopefully somebody will gleansomething helpful from us.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
Yeah, absolutely I think they will.
We're going for man, all right,guys.
Well, thank you so much forjoining in today, and remember
to subscribe to the podcast.
If you've been listening, I'msure you have You're here today.
If this is your first time,you're free to subscribe and
also share with others.
Thanks for joining us.
We'll see you next time.
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