Finding God Through Mental Health Struggles w/ Dr. Lisa Stanton

Send Me Questions on Attachment

Dr. Lisa Stanton's journey from the depths of addiction to spiritual transformation offers a powerful testimony to God's ability to heal even our most broken parts. A social psychologist with expertise in behavior change, Dr. Stanton's professional knowledge couldn't save her from her own destructive patterns – she spent fifteen years cycling through anorexia, bulimia, and alcoholism while maintaining a façade of success.

Growing up caught between her atheist mother and Christian father, Lisa drifted toward atheism in her teens and embraced biological determinism in graduate school, convinced life was meaningless. Despite outward achievements, she was drinking to blackout regularly, struggling with severe eating disorders, and eventually spiraling into isolation during COVID, drinking box wine alone in her apartment while questioning if life had any purpose at all.

The turning point came in January 2021 when, after failed attempts at recovery through new age spirituality, she surrendered to God on her knees in a church. That moment became her sobriety date – one she's maintained for over four years. But what makes her story extraordinary isn't just getting sober; it's how her relationship with God has healed the underlying spiritual wounds that therapy alone couldn't touch.

Dr. Stanton speaks candidly about the limitations of both purely religious and purely psychological approaches to mental health. While some churches stigmatize counseling, many therapists miss the spiritual dimensions of healing, particularly around forgiveness and personal responsibility. Her experience suggests that true transformation requires both spiritual surrender and honest self-examination – a daily practice of pausing to identify resentments, control issues, and selfish motivations before they manifest as anxiety, depression, or relapse triggers.

Her book "52 Life-Changing Lessons I Learned in Recovery" explores these principles further, offering wisdom for anyone struggling with addiction, mental health challenges, or simply seeking a more authentic relationship with God. If you're battling your own demons or know someone who is, this episode provides both practical insights and profound hope that healing is possible at any depth of darkness.

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My mission is to help you understand your attachment style to learn how you can heal from the pain you’ve experienced in your relationship with God, the church and yourself.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
All right, everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
So excited to have you guyshere today.
As you guys have seen in thelast couple of weeks, just kind
of doing a lot of interviews andmeeting new people, hearing
about their stories, about howthey have found God attached to
God, have experienced differenttypes of church hurt, found God
attached to God, haveexperienced different types of

(00:27):
church hurt.
And today, taking a little biteven deeper approach, as we
learn about Dr Lisa Stanton'sstory and her relationship with
God and where she was.
So the topic for today is Godattachment, mental health and
atheism.
So we're going to try to coverall those topics as much as
possible and I just want tothank you for tuning in as

(00:47):
always.
Please subscribe, share thisepisode with your friends and
thank you again for supportingthe podcast.
And now we will jump to Dr LisaStanton.
Lisa, I know you mentioned inour email exchange to call you
Lisa, and I started thinkingabout this because this was
instilled in me as a child thatwith anyone who has received a

(01:09):
degree, you refer to them as DrLisa Stanson or Dr, whatever
their name would be right.
So I went into college, wentinto my master's program and
once I graduated, all myprofessors said you can call me
by my first name now.
And I said no, I can't.
You don't understand.
I will never be able to makethat transition.

(01:31):
So in our interview today, mostlikely I'll call you Dr Lisa
Stanton, if I get comfortable.
You probably got me down toLisa, so we'll be good.

Speaker 2 (01:39):
Beautiful.
So it's a measure of howcomfortable I make you, whether
you've transitioned.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
I'm guessing that's what it is.
I'm guessing that's what it is,but maybe it's just saying the
whole thing.
Maybe I'll go to Dr Lisa.
That might short it up a littlebit.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
I have some friends who call me that just like as a
joke, sort of Like I'll come todinner, and they're like oh, dr
Lisa's here.

Speaker 1 (02:00):
I'm like hi guys, thank you Right right, right, so
I'm looking forward to it aswell.
I'm working on my dissertationright now, hopefully be done by
the end of summer and yeah, Imean it's kind of the same joke,
so we'll see how that goes.
But again, just thank you somuch for being here.
And yeah, if you could justshare a little bit with the
audience about who you are, whatyou do and you know, anything

(02:20):
interesting that you'd like toshare about yourself.

Speaker 2 (02:23):
Yeah, so I'm Lisa or Dr Lisa Stanton and just to like
current day, today I live about20 minutes west of Minneapolis
with my husband on 10 acres, sowe're like out of the city these
days.
We kind of went like citysuburbs and now we're like I

(02:43):
don't think we're going to gofurther than this, but but out
in the country a little bit.
So going back, though, I guess,like as far as education wise,
I am from Pennsylvania.
I went to college in Virginiaand then got a PhD from
University of Minnesota insocial psychology.
University of Minnesota, insocial psychology, area of

(03:09):
expertise is weight change, sobehavior change, especially body
weight and sort of associatedchronic diseases.
I then did a two yearpostdoctoral fellowship at
Northwestern School of Medicine,which is in downtown Chicago.
The campuses in Evanston, likethe main stuff, but the medical
school is downtown.
So I was downtown Chicagoworking on projects related to
behavioral cancer prevention andcontrol.

(03:30):
So essentially, if you think oflike breast cancer, ovarian
cancer, mostly they actuallyhave like a 40% risk of like.
The risk isn't biological, 40%of it is behavioral stuff.
So I was looking at basicallystudies on helping those people
do behavior change, stuff thatleads them to keep their cancer

(03:50):
in remission.
So mostly secondary preventionis what we call that.
And then from there I spent acouple years at a tech company
doing similar things withdiabetes and then spent two
years full time writing my bookthat just came out and doing a
lot of stuff.
That is like much more in thislike God direction, because I

(04:14):
had a big conversion that willcome back to in the middle of
that and then, right before wegot on here, I was telling you
most recently God has called meback to the clinical research
space and I don't know why yet,but I know that I'm here.
So I'm back working as aclinical researcher in the
diabetes space again.
But it's cool because it'sstill like helping people.
And it's so interesting becauseI now see so much more of the

(04:39):
behaviors that like of thesepeople that now it's my like
professional job to work withand it's not my professional job
to diagnose their spiritualmaladies.
But just because of my ownstruggles I like know how much
of it is related to spiritualstuff.
So it's a really interesting tolook at.
And not not every single person, but like most people.

(05:01):
If you've over into the pointthat you have type two diabetes,
you usually struggle with sometype of eating disorder, some
type of binge eating thing, anda lot of those really are more
spiritual in nature off therecord.
Those are more spiritual innature on the record.
That's not what I study whenI'm at work, but it's just
interesting to see where theseworlds are sort of colliding for

(05:22):
me these days.

Speaker 1 (05:23):
Yeah, yeah, and I'm curious is there a personal
connection to the field ofdiabetes?
You know, when you mentionedthat I know a number of people
who have it, so I was thinkingabout what that connection was
for you.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
I think it came out of just.
I think the original personalconnection was I don't remember
how much I got into it in thelike version of my story I
posted on Instagram.
But eating disorders are a hugepart of my story and it was
originally anorexia but theneventually binge eating disorder
and then that transition tobulimia, which is essentially
just binge eating disorder.
You throw it up afterward andso I feel oddly connected to

(06:02):
people who end up with type twodiabetes, because I think a lot
of them are suffering from thosesimilar things or at least
headed toward those similarthings.
You know it's on a spectrum, soat different levels, but like
overeating and not knowing why,right, and then I was just
throwing up afterwards.
So people notice more thatsomething was wrong, but a lot
of people are overeating and notknowing why and not getting to

(06:22):
those clinical levels ofdiagnoses, but then like ending
up, let's say, with a type twodiabetes diagnoses out of that.
So I think I there was a littlepersonal connection with that.
And then my little brother isonly five, I know exactly how
old he is, november 19, 1999.

(06:43):
But he, he also um, has prettylike severe unmanaged type 2
diabetes and he suffers from abunch of other mental health
stuff that makes it really hardfor him to manage um, so kind of
a variety of connections to thediabetes space yeah, yeah,
there's a lot of layers there,um, that, yeah, that just kind
of overlap with with each other.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
there's a lot of layers there that just kind of
overlap with each other.
There's the belief, there's themedical piece and there's the
mental health piece, right, andthat's essentially what we'll be
talking about today, kind ofthis whole layered belief system
of how one thing can affectanother thing.
You know, one of the thingsthat one of the reasons why I

(07:23):
started this podcast was thatthere was people who started to
deconstruct, and a big part ofthat had to do with their
experiences within the church.
And one of the things that comesup oftentimes in church, at
least for me growing up, wasthis negative view of going to
counseling.
Right, the stigma attached togoing to counseling for whatever
reason.
Right, if you're depressed, youknow the word of God should be
enough.
Why are you going to counselingfor whatever reason?

(07:44):
Right, if you're depressed, youknow the word of God should be
enough.
Why are you going to counselingAnxiety and so on?
And I'm assuming it was thesame thing, probably around
eating disorders and other typesof mental health issues.
So a lot of people didn't feellike they could.
They felt distant from God orlike they were doing something
wrong for going to seek mentalhealth services.
And I'm curious for you did yougrow up in the church?

(08:07):
And if you did, was that kindof the messaging that you heard,
or was it different?

Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah, it's interesting.
I grew up very confused, Ithink is the only way to explain
it.
So my parents got divorced whenI was four my mom listens to
every podcast and she alwayscorrects me because I have it
wrong but it's somewhere betweenthree and five they got
divorced.
And so my mom doesn't believein God.

(08:34):
Even didn't then, doesn't now,and my dad has had a lot of
changes over time.
So when I was really little hewas Christian and we went to
Christian churches but jumpedaround a lot.
We were Episcopalian, I think,when I was really young and then
we went to some other thingsfor a while and then were
Presbyterian when I was older.

(08:54):
So mostly just variousProtestant denominations.
But I mostly was just confused,I think more than anything
because we kept switching and Ididn't really know why.
And then my mom, of course,doesn't believe in God.
So then, like the adults in mylife are not agreeing on things,
so I don't really think that Icould tell you about any

(09:15):
specific like.
I don't even know if I reallyhad a negative perception of God
when I was little.
It was just like I rememberbelieving in God when I was
really little and then by thetime I was 11 or so, I just sort
of was like dumb people believein God, like this is stupid.
I don't know why anyone's doingthis, so I don't know that I
ever ended up like having toabsorb any stigmas because I

(09:38):
just didn't, which is so ironicthat I was about to be like I
just didn't respect anyone withfaith.
So why would I respect theiropinion?
But like, so ironic that I wasabout to be like I just didn't
respect anyone with faith, sowhy would I respect their
opinion?
Um, but like, that's prettymuch, which is so ironic given
where I am now, of course.
But, um, but that's, I think,what?
Where I went with it?
Um, but then I kind of.
The second part of that questionwas like about counseling Um, I

(10:00):
think both then and now.
So then, um, I went tobajillions of counselors all the
time because no one had anynegative perception of them at
all.
But I think, in some ways, nothaving thinking that that was a
panacea is problematic on theother side, right.
So there's the like don't go atall, you should just read your
Bible and figure it out, which,of course, is not particularly

(10:22):
effective.
But then there's also the likethere is nothing for you in the
Bible.
Just go to more psychology andthat will help you.
And that's also not really veryeffective in the end.
And obviously, like, in the end, I've fallen somewhere in the
middle of that, which is thatlike it takes a really I don't.
I guess part of me now sometimesonline people are like she

(10:43):
doesn't like psychology andshe's a psychologist, um, but I
think there's there's placeswhere the wrong psychologist can
take people really in the wrongdirection.
Um, and I think a lot of stufffor me with that happens,
especially like when I thinkabout my mental health struggles
whether it's eating disorders,addiction, depression, anxiety

(11:06):
that like one of the biggestplaces where, like I think,
spiritual directors andpsychologists sometimes disagree
is around forgiveness, and Ithink that's a pretty big and
important argument where so, soa good at least in my experience
, like a good.
Actually, right before we poppedon this, I was responding to
someone who was writing to meabout something about

(11:29):
forgiveness and their therapistthey were like my therapist told
me that I should forgive butnever forget, and it was in
response to a video that I hadposted, basically about like
despair coming fromunforgiveness.
From unforgiveness, yeah, um,and so I think with it, of
course, like, like I'm sayinggood spiritual director, because

(11:51):
, as we know, there's a lot oflike religious teachers who
aren't good, um, but like, butlike a good spiritual director
not someone who's trying to likescare you or shame you or
whatever um like, will, um likesoftly, I guess.
Um, I don't even know if I'malways soft, so maybe I'm not
always a good spiritual directorbut will softly push you toward
realizing that unconditionalforgiveness is actually the way

(12:14):
of healing.
And I think a lot of timestherapists are looking to
provide you, you, relief fromshame and sometimes leave us
with anger in trying to likerelieve the shame first, or like
prioritizing relief of theshame over relief of the
unforgiveness.

(12:35):
Sometimes in therapy they'llsay, like it's not your fault at
all, like don't worry about it,like you're allowed to be mad
at them.
Those are all normal emotions,right, because they're trying to
like relieve any shame theperson has, but in doing so
sometimes the healing offorgiveness can get lost.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
Yeah, no, that's a great point.
When you brought up thatdiscrepancy between how
Christian counselors ordirectors spiritual directors
might view forgiveness and thosein secular settings spiritual
directors my view forgivenessand those in secular settings I
mean immediately.
The thing that I thought of wasthat justification or that
release of what role did I playin this.

(13:16):
There's usually shame aroundthat, like I can't accept the
thing that I was responsible forand they think that if you do
accept that because I feel bad,then it must be bad.
But no, that's the whole partof, as you're mentioning, the
healing process to feel that andthen to process that and work
through that.
Um, but yeah, there isdefinitely this, this area of
forgiveness that there is a amarked difference between how

(13:39):
christians may understand thatand how non-christians may see
that and we have a gospel.
So that kind of informs the waythat we forgive this as well.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
So yeah the factor there I have one other thing
that I thought of when you weresaying.
That, too is just um, like Ijust really want to like put a
pin in that thing that you justsaid, because I was more talking
about forgiveness, but youbrought up a really great point.
Another big difference is likeresponsibility, that a lot of
times, therapists are trying tohelp you feel better and

(14:10):
sometimes, like, are diagnosingothers rather than you in some
ways, like I think I see a lotof like people going to therapy
and then, like realizing thatsomeone else is a narcissist or
someone else hurt them in thisway or they shouldn't be in this
type of thing, and there'ssometimes less again, not all
therapists, but sometimes lessof a focus on like well, what
did I do?

(14:30):
That put me?

Speaker 1 (14:32):
in a relationship.
Let's say he is a narcissist.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
What did I do?
Or what is true attachmentright?
What is in me that led me todecide that I wanted to be the
other half of that relationship?
And I think a lot of times,like, like, a good spiritual
director is better at being like.
Their sin is their sin.
Let's figure out yours, like.
Let's look at where yourpatterns are.

(14:55):
Leave their patterns to them.
Let's look at where yourpatterns are to see why you
ended up here.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yes, yes, it seems that the focus of counseling has
been to make you feel better.
Yes, yes, it seems that thefocus of counseling has been to
make you feel better, notnecessarily to heal, and healing
is is it's.
It's a term that is ongoing,right, because do you really
ever heal?
And and I'm curious to hearwhat you think about that as we
have our discussion it's thathealing is a process.
It's ongoing, but are thereways in which you cope that are

(15:21):
a lot better than you did before?
And maybe that's part of it too.
But I know part of your story,lisa comfortable now part of
your story was about dealingwith this, the mental health
struggles growing up, and, yeah,tell us a little bit about that
.
Like, what were the mentalhealth issues?
Maybe that was really pressingon you, because it sounds like

(15:43):
it happened pretty early in life.
And that's hard for a teenager,adolescent, even young adult to
navigate without guidance orwithout those strong attachment
figures in your life.
So what was that like for you,um, struggling with that?

Speaker 2 (15:57):
yeah it was.
It was a lot and it was earlyand it was not always um Like
well, I didn't really understandwhat was going on for a really
long time.
So like long before even, likeI would say, addiction comes in
kind of like 14 plus, and thenbecomes the star of the show, at
least to the people around mewho are now worried about me.

(16:19):
But prior to that, startingreally young, I didn't even
honestly think of this as athing until years later I was in
a psychology class and I waslike, oh my gosh, that was a
phobia.
When I was in a psychologyclass and I was like, oh my gosh
, that was a phobia.
When I was in starting inpreschool, I had a sticker
phobia and like that may soundlike oh, that's cute and funny,
but it was like my teachers knewnot to put them around me.
If there was a paid thank yousticker, like in the nineties,

(16:44):
on the milk, I like could notput milk on my cereal that week,
like I was terror of stickers,like if there was one on the
ground around me, I would haveto walk around it.
My stepsister loved them and putthem on her bed and I would get
like nauseous just going intoher room because there was like
stickers on her bed.
So it was like off right, it'snot just like, it's like
something, something is wrong.

(17:05):
And the way that I view thatnow is it's one of the earliest
signs of just like other thingswere wrong.
But this is where my brain wentto just like this is the
problem, stickers are theproblem, nothing else is the
problem.
And then basically, the stickerphobia kind of went away.
I honestly still don't lovethem today.

(17:27):
Like if you were like would yourather more or fewer stickers in
your life?
Fewer is the answer, but butI'm not like like I can like
have an apple with a sticker onit and take the sticker off and
proceed to eat the apple, whichwas like not possible when I was
a child, um, but it evolvedfrom that to ocd with like light
switches, um, or just likeweird tapping things and like

(17:52):
that was the, that was thecompulsion and the obsession was
that my mom was going to die,which had to do with some other,
like trauma and deaths,especially of mothers.
That was happening in my lifearound that time.
So I like truly believe that ifI didn't flick this light
switch enough times like I, mymother was at risk of dying as a
result of that Um, and then, incombination with that um, I had

(18:15):
separation anxiety disorder,which is this thing where you
have basically like nightmaresthat an attachment figure is
going to die when you'reseparated from them.
Um, which also was my mom, andhow old?
were you during that time.
This was like around like eightto 11 or 12.

Speaker 1 (18:32):
Okay, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:35):
And what had happened around that time when I was in
fifth grade, which I think islike 10.
So prior to that, like a girlwhose mom we were going to adopt
, this girl whose mom had cancerand then her mom passed away.
So like that mom died.
And then, um, my like mom, mynow stepdad's ex wife Um, so

(19:00):
they were already divorced bythis time, but she died like
right around the same time.
And then when I was in fifthgrade, the mom of one of my
classmates was obviously havingmental health issues and um
murdered him and committedsuicide.
So moms were just like behavingin confusing ways is probably
the best way to explain it.

(19:20):
Yeah, I think that's why, likethat started to develop um.
And then basically, I thinklike those things kind of
petered out and I don't reallyremember anything like mostly
just anxiety after that, when Iwas like 11 to 13.
And then freshman year intosophomore year of high school,

(19:42):
kind of simultaneously, Istarted drinking a lot.
Like from the day I starteddrinking I was like blackout,
drinking a lot all the time.
Like I was drinking at schoolwith older kids.
I started dating a senior inhigh school who had access to
alcohol, so it happened prettyquickly and then simultaneously
the eating disorder started.
So those got really bad or likestarted the summer after

(20:06):
freshman year of high school.
So between July of that year inDecember of that year I went
from 115 pounds I was alreadyskinny like 88.
Wow, yeah so it just went tolike and then obviously that's
when like alarm bells startedsounding because I looked like a
skeleton, and so then I likethat's when kind of therapy

(20:29):
started for that and I had beenon and off in therapy for all
those other things.
but I would just kind of say itwas okay, because therapy when
you're eight is scary uh yeah,and so it was more just like I
don't know, so that that wholelike ocean of OCD and the
sticker phobia kind of went awaywhen, like, from that time on,

(20:50):
my like thought life wasobsessed by food and alcohol
yeah like one or the other orboth at any given time and I
know you would kind of ask.
Like day to day it sort ofswitched between whether the
problem was anorexia, whetherthe problem was bulimia, whether
the problem was alcohol anddrugs.
But I feel like, honestly, from14 to 29, it was like one of

(21:15):
those most of the time and I,like I did well, like I played a
lot of sports, I got mostly allA's in school, so like those
things were happening.
But like whatever my brain wasnot like actively involved in
doing one of those things, I waseither like obsessing about my
weight or drunk.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
Yeah, and see that.
And that was the interestingthing that caught my attention
was that I don't know if it wasa red or a slide in one of your
videos, but it was this idea ofbeing very still like a stellar
student and still doing athleticstuff and so on, and even your
accomplishments.
Afterwards it sounded like youwere functioning well on a day
to day that almost no one wouldhave noticed in a sense.

(21:54):
But yeah, who was noticing Like?
Who was the one that wastelling, hey, you need to stop
that.
Was there anyone?

Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah, very few people , which is interesting.
Like my mom Sorry, my phonestarted ringing because my
brother's allowed to ringthrough when it's on, do not
disturb um.
So my mom noticed especially.
I feel like she noticed a lotum around like the anorexia
stuff.
And then I had like a friend inhigh school who noticed, who

(22:23):
kind of tried to stage her ownlittle intervention.
She left and went to boardingschool and basically told me
like I'm not going to stay hereand watch you die, because she
really knew how much I wasdrinking and how weird I was
about at that point.
Um, but like, mostly my parentsdidn't know.
It's actually been reallyinteresting.
I just gave my dad and mystep-mom um copies of my book

(22:43):
and they have been sort of likeless involved in a lot of my
recovery stuff.
My mom, um, even though shedoesn't believe in God, is
actually my editor and readseverything that I write, so she
like knows the stories.
So she's had time to process it.
But I thought I was giving mydad and my stepmom this like
gift of like oh look, my bookcame out, you guys should read
it.
But the book starts with amemoir and they both actually

(23:05):
emailed me since I gave it tothem and we're'm so sorry.
Like I didn't know, wow.
And I was like I'm so sorry Idid not consider warning.
That's what was in the book.
I like it was not meant to belike uh, you know what?
I mean, it wasn't meant to makethem feel bad about their
parenting or anything thathappened.
I was like what came out andthen they were like, oh my god,

(23:26):
I didn't know, this is what youwere going through, um, and then
so no one for a while in someways.
But like the people who arearound me in performance
settings, I feel like knew, likesome coaches kind of knew that
things were happening and thenwhat really started to happen is
anyone I ever dated basicallybroke up with me because of

(23:49):
alcohol or talked to me about itor gave me ultimatum?
Yeah, so I would say in the endit was mostly like boyfriends,
but they're so easy to get newones.
Like kind of a funny way, butkind of serious way is that like
as soon as someone breaks upwith you because of that, you
just convince yourself that theydidn't understand you and like
it's fun?

Speaker 1 (24:11):
Yeah, so that was the mentality about it.
Is that you don't understandwhy I'm going through this or
why I'm having this.
This is my way to maybeself-soothe in a way, um, or
decompress from everything.
Or yeah, what was?
Is that how it was seen?
Kind of like this I love thismore than I love you, so it
doesn't really matter.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
Or like what was the thought process I feel like they
saw it as like this girl's gotlike problems with alcohol and I
feel like the alcohol was kindof the thing that kept coming up
because you can't really breakup with someone for being
anorexic.
I mean you can, but it likefeels worse if you're the guy to
be like break up with you overyour eating disorder.
But like alcoholism was likeeasier to talk to me about,

(24:54):
maybe, than like hey, why don'tyou ever eat foods?
Um, so I feel like it was morethis conversation where they'd
be like is there anything I cando to help you?
Like why do you black out allthe time?
It's really hard to date youwhen you're like because I mean
I would black out and wake upsomewhere else, right.
So not like cheating on themblacked out, but not because I

(25:15):
wanted to cheat on them, justbecause I blacked out and didn't
know where I ended up.
Always, just I'm like I don'tknow why I drink that much, I
don't want to drink that much,like maybe it's because I don't
eat and then I drink, right.
So then I'm like blaming theeating disorder in it or blaming
social anxiety.
So it was always like Igenuinely didn't think that I

(25:39):
had a problem with alcohol.
I thought I had a lot of otherproblems and then just couldn't
figure out why I blacked out allthe time.
Um so I think I didn't reallyknow, but it kind of led to
these like cycles.
I mean, we're also all so youngfor the most part.
I actually dated an older guywhen I was in my mid twenties
and he was the first person whowas like you're an alcoholic and

(26:01):
I was like you're just in yourforties.
Didn't really understand.
I just thought he was old.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yeah, no, that's, that's um.
Yeah, it's wild.
So from 14 to 29, that was kindof like the life and um, and
for you it felt like, well, it'sjust, I'm not being understood
for what I'm going through, whatI'm experiencing.
So I'm curious.
So at 29, what, what shifted?
Because I think, from what youmentioned leading up to 29,

(26:33):
there's still no belief in God.
Is that right?
No strong, so so living thatlife.
So what changed?

Speaker 2 (26:50):
deterministic.
I had a professor in graduateschool who was like a biological
determinism guy and I went fromsort of like I'm not really
sure to like life is biological,like determinism, like doesn't
matter what decision I make,it's all biological.
In the Big Bang it wasdetermined like what I'm gonna
eat for lunch today.
Like I went that far into justlike life is dust, doesn't
matter.
And then over time it's sofunny, funny, I how like

(27:11):
dependent things were on who Iwas dating, or looking up to
right.
So this professor and then Idated a guy in my like mid 20s
to late 20s who maybe wassetting me up for the eventual
conversion, but he was reallynew age spiritual at least put
me in this place of likestarting to believe that there

(27:34):
was something other than thethings that I was experiencing.
Um, happening, I guess, wouldprobably be the best way to
explain that.
Um, he was high all the time,which I think like led to some
of the like this is what I'mover here,
um, but he also was pretty niceabout my drinking because he was
high all the time, so that'swhy that boyfriend lasted so

(27:56):
long.
But so I think like during mylater 20s I became a little bit
more open to like universe stuffand then, unfortunately, that
led to like a lot of gettingreally led astray into like
psychics and crystals and allsorts of things that I've
actually had to like pray aboutbeing released from now, but at

(28:17):
least in a weird way, like itwas an interesting part of the
path, because I think it wouldhave been really hard to jump
from like determinism toChristianity.
But because these like smalldoors were already opened by
these other things I like didstrongly believe in, like, um,
oh gosh, what is that?
Like the secret or likemanifestation, or like these
other things like existing, um,that are all just like

(28:40):
completely self-centeredversions of spirituality.
Now I've come to understand Ididn't know that then and at
least they were opening the doortoward things.
So that was like my mid to late20s and then I hit rock bottom,
drinking wise, and it's sofunny because like nothing
happened, people are like whatis rock bottom?
And I'm like I don't know theday that I woke up and was like
you are.

(29:02):
It's stupid to be alive rightthat moment yeah, um, and it was
like several months ofspiraling and I'd gotten to a
point where it was very clearthat my drinking was not just
over partying anymore.
I was like several months ofspiraling and I'd gotten to a
point where it was very clearthat my drinking was not just
over partying anymore.
I was like drinking box wine 24hours a day in my studio
apartment by myself during COVID.
So no, sure that didn't helpthere's no like excuse that of

(29:24):
anything anymore.
Right, I'm just doing this tomyself alone, um, and eventually
just got to a point where Ithink I was just like I don't,
like I don't even understand thepoint of life, like what is
even the point of living, what'seven the point of sobering up,
what's even the point ofanything.
But I think that at leastallowed me to realize like I'm
spiraling and I need help, likeif I think there's not even a

(29:45):
point of being alive anymorethan like something, then I need
to do something.
And I feel like that somethingwas just like I somehow need to
not be drunk all the timeanymore.
Um, and so that propelled meinto asking for help, like with
that um which sent me intopeople recommending recovery

(30:05):
meetings.
And then it was when I got mybutt planted in recovery
meetings that people said youneed a higher power.
And I was like I got one.
It's universe, everything'sfine.
And then my life got worse andworse and worse, because now I'm
not drinking and I don't have arelationship with God.
I have a relationship withnothing.
I've made up a God and which isreally just yourself.

(30:26):
If you make up who God is andmake it your own.
You're actually just worshipingyourself and things get worse,
which is what happened.
So things spiraled more for sixmonths while I sat in that, and
then it was January of 2021,about 20 days before my 30th

(30:46):
birthday that I finallysurrendered to, like, got
brought to a church there's awhole story there but ended up
in a church on my knees, likelooking at a cross.
It was like, fine, whatever,like I'll try it.
Um, and then that's where thewhole story sort of shifts is,
beginning from january 4th 2021,which I did not know that day

(31:08):
was going to be my sobriety date.
But that is so.
Those whole six months whereI'm trying to do the universe
and all this other stuff, I alsolike kept relapsing not again
on alcohol, but I was likecocaine and mushrooms and like
LSD, because I need to have aspiritual experience and like
just spiraling in that sense andlike just spiraling in that

(31:31):
sense.
So January 4th was when I goton my knees in the church and
was like okay, like if you'rereal, do something.
And then one day at a time thathas remained my sobriety date
for more than four years now.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's amazing.
It's great to be able to reachthat point.
I'm sure it was a huge reliefafterwards.
And then, obviously, therecovery process is is another
stage in and of itself.
But I you know as a as thelisteners are hearing this one
of the things that I keepthinking about, lisa, as you
were sharing, is just how much,how far deep, it can go into

(32:09):
into these addictions.
Deep it can go into theseaddictions.
And if you're watching all ofthis, from that 14 to 29 years
of age that you wereexperiencing, anyone from the
outside is like there's no hopefor that person.
They're just going to be likethis for the rest of their lives
.
So to hear from you sharing allof that and then getting to the
point where I don't even knowwhat this is, I'm just going to

(32:32):
give it a try and see whathappens, and gosh, it just
speaks to the power of God inthose very deep, dark moments.
And I can't even imagine whatyour nights were when you had to
process everything that hadhappened in the last 15 years
prior to that.
Can you give us a glimpse ofwhat those nights were like for

(32:53):
you?
I feel like people most oftenreflect on their change at night
, but I don't know what was thatlike for you.

Speaker 2 (33:00):
Yeah Well, even as you were talking, it was making
me think that I think one of thecoolest things about a
relationship with God that I'velike come to I don't know have
developed whatever over the lastfour years, um, is that, like
yes, I've been sober since thatday.
Like great, I have not usedmind altering chemicals other

(33:22):
than like Advil and coffee sincethat day, um, however, I think
what's almost cooler whichsounds crazy to be like you were
drunk 24 hours a day and nowyou're not like that's pretty
darn cool.
That says a lot about God.
However, I think what's coolerthan that is like all of the
other changes, and those changesmight actually be more relevant

(33:43):
to the average listener who,like may not be drinking
themselves to death right now,but just like is still having
like anxiety from day to day, isstill like wondering the
purpose in life, is still likeworried what other people are
thinking about them, is stillworried about the health of
their friends and family, isstill like wanting certain goals

(34:05):
or certain things and like howdo I manage like my goals and
like my expectations and mypurpose, and like all of those
things have like begun to sortthemselves out over the last
four years also, and like thosethings are are a lot of the
reason why I was drinking rightin a bunch of anger to watch

(34:31):
those things sort themselves out.
But to go back to like what it'slike when you first start
processing those things, likefor me, the first couple of
years really of sobriety waslike these highs where I'm like
I'm forgiving people and God'shelping me and this is the
coolest thing ever and I can'tbelieve I don't hate this person
anymore and they don't pop intomy head and this is amazing.
And then just like beingexhausted and wondering if I'm

(34:52):
depressed again and like justlike.
I feel like the highs and lowsof that because there's so much
being processed and like so manylittle mini awakenings
happening that it's like it'salmost like you get a mini
awakening and then it all needsto like, process through and
like.
So it just was a mix of like.

(35:12):
I don't think that I ever felt.
That's actually not true.
I was gonna say I don't think Iever felt like deep despair,
but there was a couple times,especially like they'll have a
menstrual cycle, man, and thereare like certain types of the
month, especially times in themonth, like the hormones and
like the healing cycle hit justright and I would go back to

(35:33):
being like this guy, even real,like why is this happening?
And then, like two days later,I'm like okay, I like get it and
I'm like feeling better aboutthis thing.
Um, but it was not linear likeit's, not like it's not very
forth and then everything hasbeen like everything has
actually been uphill since then,but that like hill looked much

(35:55):
more like that than just likeclimbing straight up.
Um, because I fought back abouta lot of things.
Like there, there's beencertain times in my recovery, in
my relationship with God, likeif we just go all the way full
circle to talk to me aboutforgiveness, in the beginning,
january 5th, I did not believe.

(36:17):
Right, it's been one day I'm aChristian.
One day I did not believe inunconditional forgiveness.
I did not think that I neededto forgive everyone who harmed
me.
I didn't think they deserved it.
I was glad that hell existedand they were probably going
there.
Like that is not the type ofperson that I am today, but
that's the thing is that there'slike salvation, great.
Now I like believed in Jesus,but then there's just like I
think, till I die, right, therewill be more and more

(36:37):
notification of these, likelayers being revealed to me of
places, and on January 5th 2021,like now, they're like a little
bit more subtle.
I think that things God'sworking on they were harsh
things God was working on.
I mean, I had I don't evenreally talk about this in
podcasts, that much.
But like I had just, like thesummer before, gotten into

(36:59):
seeking arrangements, which isessentially this like
prostitution website, and I waslike not even totally convinced
that I needed to give that up onJanuary 5.
So, like my sanctificationjourney has been long to to be
like jesus, I believe in you,and then, on january 5th, be
like you're sure I can't trademoney for sex, and they're like,
no, you really can't do thatanymore.

(37:19):
That's not the thing.
So, like, no matter where youare in that journey, like that
to the point where today I'mlike I'm really trying to like
stop swearing.
Or like stop.
Like like lying's gone but likelittle ways that I lie to
myself.
Or like into controlling of myhusband, or like am I in slots

(37:41):
when I'm not picking up aftermyself?
Like that's where I live today.
But day one was not like thatright.
Day one was like big, chunkysins that I was still very much
in.

Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, and I'm really glad that you mentioned that,
because I think from those whogrew up in the church it's hard
for us to see that, or it's kindof like the story that we
always wanted, right, the ideaof seeing someone in the deepest
, darkest pit of their life.
Jesus comes in, saves the day.
And now they have this.
You know this uphill, likeeverything's uphill after that,

(38:13):
because how much farther can yougo when you've been to the
deepest, darkest, darkest pit?
So for those who grew up in thechurch, they often think to
themselves they see theirtestimony is something like it's
not as uh, dramatic orspectacular as someone else who
was saved from that place whereyou were at.
So they don't often appreciatetheir own growth, which is slow.

(38:35):
But also there's these verydeep falls in their Christian
walks, kind of like a Davidmoment, right, someone who
sought after God but then hadthese really horrific sins and
then you know, obviously he getsreestablished by God.
So I think those who grew up inthe church see that story and
think that it's only a pill.
So when you share that, no,there was still some things they

(38:56):
had to wrestle with, but atleast it was still going up,
that relationship was growingwith God.
So I appreciate you sharingthat, because I do know that a
lot of Christians who grew up inthe church want to have a type
of testimony, that kind of hasthat punch when they share with
other people.
But I think what I encouragethem to do is, no, share your

(39:18):
story, because that's part of ittoo.
It's like, even as a Christian,that doesn't mean that your
life is easy, right, everyChristian faces trial and
tribulations and they'redifferent, and God's given to
one what maybe others couldn'tdo, and so on.
So, yeah, I'm thankful that you, that you shared that thing.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
I just want to like touch on what you said.
It's not that I don'tappreciate other people who have
stories like me, but it's sofunny if you're listening and
you're like I don't have animportant testimony.
Most of the people that Ilisten to, like, if I think of,
like the christians who I, who Iregularly listen to them on
podcasts or whatever they arepeople who grew up in the church

(39:57):
.
Right, I'm not like seeking outpeople with like bang up
testimony, like it's fine ifthey do.
I'm not like purposely notseeking out people with crazy
testimonies, um, but for me it'sactually really cool to hear
people who it's like, becausethere can also be this
perception who it's, I guess,who I was going to say like, who
it's like they, they believedin God their entire life and

(40:21):
they've just been like, how havethey worked through these
different stages of things?
How have they fallen intodifferent things and pulled
themselves back out?
Because I feel like that's moreit's not interesting.
This sounds horrible.
It's not interesting to me thatsomeone didn't used to believe
in God and now they do.
I'm like okay, but now that youdo like, how do you wrestle

(40:41):
with these different like things?
So I just want to encourageanyone who has believed in God
the whole time that those arelike.
Those are the teachers that Ireally like listening to,
because it's it's hearing howthey like work through things,
interface with God when theydoubt their faith.
Because I can have thisperception to that.

(41:02):
It's like from January 4, on,I'm never supposed to doubt the
power of God and everything isfine and like.
Would that be ideal?
Yes, but is that how my day today life has been lived?
Not always.
So it's helpful to hear thatit's not just because I'm new to
faith.

Speaker 1 (41:17):
It's that like that happens to everyone in faith
research done on attachmenttheory and one is called
correspondence theory and one iscalled the compensation theory.
Correspondence theory is thosewho grew up in the church.
Whatever their parents modeledfor them, they tend to attribute

(41:38):
those same characteristics toGod.
So if their parents were harsh,critical, judgmental, they grew
up believing that God is harsh,critical, judgmental.
So they'll read those passagesin scripture and say, look see
here, god is just so.
I have to make sure I'm on thestraight and narrow and so on
right, and then they themselvescan also become very judgmental.
But if their parents wereloving, caring, kind, gentle,

(42:02):
then they read scripture throughthat lens and see God as kind,
caring and gentle.
So it corresponds with the waythat their parents treat them,
interesting kind caring andgentle, so it corresponds with
the way that their parents treatthem.
The compensation theory isusually people who do not grow
up in the church so they go livetheir life and then they start.
When they do receive the Lord,come into contact with the
church.
Now God compensates foreverything that they feel that

(42:26):
they lack in their childhood.
So you see God as kind of thesavior of everything that I
needed security, comfort, love,patience, kindness all of these
things that I didn't get as achild.
Now in my relationship with God, I'm seeing it and I'm
experiencing it for the firsttime, and so for them, they feel
it compensates for everythingthat they lacked in their
childhood.
So I love hearing these storieswhere we're seeing these, these

(42:49):
um characteristics, because itdoes teach us a lot about how we
relate to god.
You know, um, you shared inyour story that there was a time
where you, where you alsobecame an atheist and I'm
curious was that during the newage spirituality?
Was it after you came to thelord?
Where was that piece out?

Speaker 2 (43:08):
no, no, that was more I feel like early graduate
school, a couple years um.
I just like kind of talkedabout it as like biological
determinism, um, but that wasessentially like the few years
where I was just like there isnothing beyond what I can see,
like I can see it all.
This is all that there is um,and so I don't know if it was

(43:29):
like it wasn't as though I waslike out there, being like I am
an antichrist, like this is whatit is, but I mean, if you're
not for him, you're against him.
So in some ways I guess I wasby default um, but but I was
just convinced that, like thiswas all just biological and that
was it okay, yeah, no, thatmakes sense.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
That makes sense too.
So, now that you're in the Lordand have remained sober, still
have some struggles here andthere.
What is something that you'vebeen able to?
What is the biggest takeaway, Iguess, from your relationship
with the Lord?
How has he spoken to yourecently, and even through your
book?

Speaker 2 (44:14):
with the Lord.
How has he spoken to yourecently?
And even through your book?
Yeah, um, I think so many ways.
I feel like recently, um, oneof the biggest lessons that I've
been learning is just that,like I don't get to plan, um,
like I don't get, I don't get toknow what's next, I just get to
like have faith in that.
Um, and I feel like that's beenlike.

(44:36):
I like, with the book coming outand all this stuff, I was like,
okay, I'm an author now.
I like need to start writing onSubstack, which I did in
October.
I'm like gonna focus more onInstagram, I'm like all of this
stuff.
And then, like there's a wholestory about how it happened, but
like god was like no, you'reactually gonna take a full-time

(44:57):
job.
What the book just came out.
And he's like no, this is likewhat it is.
And there was just some likecrazy signs like I'm a big, like
god has spoken to me through,like people, obviously, but just
through like that.
You know that thing where youlike see something and someone

(45:17):
else can talk you out of itbecause they're like well, that
happens a million times.
But like you see it and it justhas that like ping in your
heart where you're like, oh,that's God talking to me right
now.
There was just like so manythings that I could not deny
that this is where God wants mefor the moment.
But I feel like what's so coolabout God is that, like, when I

(45:37):
try to calculate things which Ilove to calculate things right I
was in school for so long LikeI can calculate how much time is
in the day, and if you give mea full time job, I'm not gonna
be able to do all the thingsthat I'm supposed to be doing
for you and your kingdom.
Like, if I have to do this, allthe things that I'm supposed to
be doing for you and yourkingdom.
Like if I have to do this, andhe's like you're going to be
fine, like watch this.
And what happened is just like abunch of things.

(45:57):
I had filled my day with abunch of things that I didn't
need to be doing, and a bunch ofthese things that were actually
just sort of like I don't wantto say waste of time, because
some of them were useful, butlike I didn't need to be doing
anyway, fell away.
Um, and like I didn't need tobe doing anyway, fell away, and
like I still have time, like Ihave not changed the cadence at
which I post, I still write anessay every week that goes up on

(46:18):
Saturday.
I just like also have a jobduring the daytime now, and so
it's been really cool to justwatch that happen and even allow
people to step into roles thatthey haven't before.
Like for the last couple ofyears, um, I've taught this
recovery workshop with myhusband on Tuesday nights and it
starts at five, um, and I needto be working.

(46:40):
I mean it's remote, but I needto be working till five and it's
like 20 minutes away, so Icannot do that workshop, um, but
it allowed me to be like, hey,what if Amanda does it with you,
right, which is a woman whogoes to our home group, who's
been like, progressing in herfaith, and like my husband does
it with Amanda and it's going sowell.
So it's just also like to giveother people places where I

(47:06):
didn't even know that they, like, had God's trying to.
You know, use their gifts overthere and you can use my gifts
over here and I don't need to bein all of the places at once.
So it's even been cool to seethings where it's like, but I
have to do that workshop andit's like no, the workshop has
to get done because it helps alot of people, but do am I the
person who has to do that?

Speaker 1 (47:26):
No, and that's hard.
Yeah, yeah, it's so.
Yeah, yeah, it's so.
Yeah, it's so hard when we'reseeing our gifts to be able to,
to be used in a specific areaand god needs needing us in
maybe a different area from thatto develop other gifts probably
yeah, and it's just been coolto see like how, like literally,

(47:47):
not only did I start afull-time job, but I've been
going to this new church, like achurch.

Speaker 2 (47:52):
They just had week three last week, um in
Minneapolis, um, and so theyhave like no teams right, like
no one's serving.
They're just trying to figurethings out, um.
So I like joined theircommunications team and I said
that I would write the emailsthat they send out, which is
like a recap of Sunday and aninvitation email, and it's like

(48:12):
I'm gonna add running all theemails for this brand new church
.
I'm gonna add full-time job andGod's like, yeah, it's gonna be
fine, just like do it so.
And it has been, and I thinkthat's that's probably been my
biggest lesson as of late.
There's been different lessons,obviously, tons of them over
the last four years, but I thinkthat's been my biggest lesson

(48:33):
as of late.
And I think it's cool Likeagain going back to that.
Like if you just let God keepprogressing, you like for me for
the last four years, or whetherit's for over 30 years for some
of your listeners you know whatI mean Like if they've just
been a Christian since they werefive that like there keeps
being these new layers oflessons, because it's like when
I first started, that lesson oflike hey, you actually have to

(48:54):
forgive everyone, was likemassive.
And then this lesson of likeholding hate in your heart for
others was massive.
This lesson of like you need totake responsibility for your
actions and causing thesituations in your life right
was massive.
But it's like I get those now.
I, the second, that I feeldisturbed about something.

(49:15):
I'm like what did I do to causethis?
Because I know that I didsomething and so, like now that
those things are automatic, it'slike these more subtle things
that I learned, like hey, maybestop thinking that you're the
one who runs the show, lisa, andrealize that God is the one who
runs the show.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
Absolutely.
Yeah, it's such a differentapproach to life when we're able
to kind of really take a stepback and reflect on how we are
in any given situation.
You know, basically, when theBible talks I think it's in
James, when it talks about themirror how we forget very easily
what we see in the mirror whenwe leave it.
And, yeah, that idea, we forgetkind of our, our, our influence
in different situations, ourimpact in different situations

(49:58):
or our responsibilities indifferent situations.
That's why we have the word ofGod.
It kind of reflects back to uslike, hey, we're sinners too,
not just all the other peoplearound us.

Speaker 2 (50:07):
Yeah, there's this one line I should know because I
like read it all the time it's.
I have it literally just aphysical bookmark and a physical
Bible that is over there.
But when I was applying forthis job I was doing I know they
say, don't always do Bibleroulette where you just like
open the Bible and are like,what do you have for me today?
I know there's that, but that'swhat I was doing, so I was

(50:34):
doing that, doing that.
And there's this like line Idon't even know what book it's
in which is sad, um, but it'sbasically I think it might be
Deuteronomy somewhere, but it'sjust like God knows better.
It's like God basically likestop trying to create your own
wisdom.
Like the best wisdom of allcomes from above.
Um, and that's been like bigfor me, me just, and I think
like work, projects and try likethe life plans I was talking

(50:54):
about, or even we just likerecently moved into this house
and when we were house shopping,it's like stop thinking that me
obsessively spending more timedoing something is going to get
me closer to the right answer.
Like pray about it and listenand follow the steps that God is
pointing me toward and thatotherwise I'm just spinning my
wheels and wasting time.

Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yeah, no, that's good , that's really good.
Gosh, I feel like we've coveredso much.
Lisa, I'm curious is there,before we close today, is there
anything that I missed, anythingthat you feel like?
You know what I mean, as, aswe're talking about this, I
think this would be really goodfor your audience to take away
from this conversation, kind oflike a takeaway message, um, or

(51:38):
just maybe something that I Ididn't cover um, I feel like
maybe just circling back alittle bit on the like various
mental health stuff, um, becauseI know people struggle with
that, like in various ways andat all different levels.

Speaker 2 (51:54):
Like you may have, um , people who are like having
debilitating anxiety, like I hadon here.
Or you may have people who arejust like, hey, I get nervous a
lot.
Or like before I go to socialsettings I get nervous.
Or before public speaking I getnervous.
It's not taking over my life,but I still like there's stuff
here.
Or like depression, right,there's like I can't get out of

(52:15):
bed for two weeks, which is I'vesuffered from.
And then there's also just likeI need an extra nap because I
just like I'm fatigued.
And then there's just like I'msad and I don't know what.
Right, there's all differentlevels of these things.
So I'm not just speaking towardpeople who like have a clinical
diagnosis, um, in the eatingdisorder too, right, it's like
there's people who are starvingthemselves to death and vomiting

(52:36):
up their food all the time,like I was.
And there's people who are justlike you're a little weird about
food and you're like afraid ofbutter, afraid of gluten, right
and there's just like littlestuff going on with food, um,
and what I found is that likereally slowing down and
examining myself has brought somuch healing, like across that

(52:58):
spectrum.
Because kind of I've had thatexperience like whatever I call
it chunky sin or something, butlike the chunky mental health,
like God helped me with a lot ofthat in the beginning, but now
I don't suffer from that anymoreand I suffer from more of like
the second half of all of thosespectrums I was talking about.
If I'm gonna suffer at all, andevery time there's always

(53:19):
something spiritual going onwith me underneath it.
And it's like if I can justslow down and be honest with
myself, compassionate withmyself, right, because God would
want us to be compassionatewith ourselves, compassionate
with myself, but honest withmyself about what's really going
on.
Like if I'm having a day whereI'm just like really tired and

(53:41):
like sad and I don't know why tolook at, like who am I angry at
?
Or like what am I trying tocontrol?
Or like what am I not giving toGod that like things for me are
not?
My most recent essay was despairis not biological, was the
title of it, which is a littlebit snippety, but what I was
trying to like really get at isthat, like my experience of

(54:03):
whether it's despair, anxiety,eating disorders, alcoholism,
whatever it is is that like itdoesn't mean that the chemicals
in my brain don't eventually getaffected, but that that's not
like ground zero.
Ground zero is what's going onwith me spiritually and then
brain chemicals manifest,behaviors manifest, all these
other things manifest.
But like, what is going onunderneath that and when I can

(54:25):
be super honest with myself?
I watched a lot of that stufflike go away, away, because
what's really happening is I'mgetting like stuck in my own sin
and sometimes it's super minorstuff that I really just don't
feel like admitting to.
Um, like a funny example islike leaving my husband and I go
to the Minnesota Wild a lot theNHL hockey team, um and I was

(54:49):
just like tired and I didn'twant to be there.
So I'm like you know being justhaving feelings that are not
feelings of happiness, and we'releaving and we get in the car
and he's like wants to show mesome like video on his phone and
then I'm like can we just gohome, like in that town?
And he just like looked overand was like I'd prefer it if

(55:16):
you didn't tell me what to do,um, and I'm literally just like
so mad, right, and so likethat's kind of the moments I'm
talking about is like I'm soupset in that moment if I did
not pause and self-examine andtalk now I did that in a second
I would be anxious that night, Iwould be depressed the next day
, I would maybe even get weirdabout food again if I let it go

(55:38):
on for so long.
So like those things for me,like those different mental
health symptoms manifest fromjust like the tiniest little
things that I let faster.
So like in that moment, becauseof me, I let myself be mad for
like 10 seconds.
I'm like this freaking guy, um,my loving husband and then um,
right, and then I sat there andI was like, okay, I'm mad at him

(56:00):
right now because he called mea control freak, which he didn't
actually do, but that's what hedid in my head, um, and then
it's like then, for second, Isit there and then I'm like I
was being controlling and like,even further back than that, I
was like resentful that the gamewas going on for too long,
right, so, and it's just sillythings.

(56:21):
But it's like, if I can justlook at that and be like I was
being self-centered, I was beingresentful, and then I was being
controlling and like that'sokay, and when I can just go to
God and be like, hey, I wasstruggling tonight with
resentment, with selfishness andwith being controlling of my
husband, um, like, please helpme with those, take them away

(56:41):
and be helpful, then it's likefunny, right.
Like then I like startedlaughing in the car and he was
like what?
And I was like, well, you callme a control freak and I was
annoyed at you for doing that,and then I realized that I was
being one, and then you can havethis like funny interface and
it actually also like so, likethe relationship is better, and
like the spiritual part of justbeing like I need to confess

(57:03):
that I was being a brat and that, and that doesn't make me like
it doesn't sink me into shame,it actually does.
The other thing, which is likeheals those things by just being
able to confess them to God andanother person.

Speaker 1 (57:16):
Yeah, I mean that was .
I think this is the piece thata lot of people miss when they
go to counseling, right?
So there's this belief and I'mgoing to talk about this at some
point on my, on my IG page this, this myth of if you go to
counseling, you're going to healor you're healing, but really
it's the work that you dooutside of it.
Right, because people continueto go to counseling sometimes

(57:39):
and there's no change, becausethey think the going to
counseling itself is what'scausing some change, or or just
better understanding, but onlyin session.
But what you just explained ishere's what it looks like when I
experience it I pause, Ireflect, I challenge, I confront
.
What's my responsibility?
How did I respond?
And, being to your point, beinghonest with myself about what

(57:59):
this interaction was like, andthen that's what continues to
bring the healing.
But I think if there's anycommon thread that I've seen is
those who go to counseling butthen don't do the work.
They continue to struggle withthat, with that piece of being
honest with themselves.
So I really like how you kindof paused and walked us through
what that looks like for you,because I think people miss that
.
What does this look like on aday-to-day, exactly like that.

Speaker 2 (58:22):
Yeah, it can be so minor.
So many people would just belike, oh whatever, just brush
that under the rug.

Speaker 1 (58:37):
And it's like exactly like silent the whole car ride
home, and then everyone wouldhave been like in their own
little like thing.
And then it gets worse andeverything builds up, and then
the next one builds up and andthen you have these, these
eruptions, right where I couldhave dealt with this when it was
small.
Now that it's big, it becomes ahuge issue, um, but yeah, no,
that that was.
That was really good and andthank you for bringing us back
to that, there is so much to sayon mental health and maybe that
could be a conversation foranother time.
But, um, lisa, thank you forbeing on the show.

(58:57):
I really appreciate you sharingyour story.
And, um, can you tell us just alittle bit about your book?
I know we've talked about ithere and there throughout our
conversation, but, yeah, I'mgoing to post it on the show
notes.
But, yeah, what could theaudience look forward to if they
were to buy your book?

Speaker 2 (59:13):
Yeah, so it's called 52 Life-Changing Lessons I
Learned in Recovery and it'sbasically 52 lessons that are
not dissimilar from some of theones that we talked about today.
So it's basically, if you thinkof just like the mini lessons
that were in there, like aboutforgiveness or about whatever,
it's 52 of those.

(59:37):
Some of them are about coming tobelieve some of them are a
little bit like addiction,specific, what is a craving to
me spiritually?
Or what is alcoholism, um, whatis an eating disorder?
But then the whole second halfof the book, um, is basically
like relatable to anyone.
So yeah, that's, that's whatthat's about.
I was on Amazon.

Speaker 1 (59:55):
Can you get anywhere?

Speaker 2 (59:56):
It's on Amazon, DM me if you can't find it.
Just DM me and I will find away to get you a copy.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
Sounds good, sounds good.
Well, I appreciate you being onthe show and thank you so much,
and hopefully we can do anotherone sometime.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Yeah, thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
All.