August 13, 2025 • 47 mins
Send Me Questions on Attachment
What happens when grief arrives unexpectedly, shattering the life you carefully built? Dr. Jerry Woodbridge knows this terrain intimately. After losing her husband to cancer just one day after his diagnosis, she found herself navigating not only her own grief but also guiding her children through theirs.
In this profound conversation, Dr. Woodbridge dispels common misconceptions about the grieving process. Forget the neat, orderly stages you've heard about—grief is more like "having a thousand hornets around your head" or bouncing on a trampoline while attempting to climb stairs. You make progress, fall back, bounce up again, and repeat in an unpredictable cycle that doesn't follow a timetable.
The discussion delves into how grief fundamentally challenges our identity. For Dr. Woodbridge, becoming a widow at 42 wasn't part of her plan. "I made a choice to become a wife," she explains, "I did not say yes to becoming a widow." This identity crisis led to honest, sometimes angry conversations with God that ultimately strengthened her faith through Scripture passages specifically addressing God's care for widows.
Perhaps most eye-opening is Dr. Woodbridge's insight into children's grief. Adults often try to shield children from pain or expect them to bounce back quickly, not realizing this approach can lead to unresolved grief manifesting later as identity issues, risky behaviors, and spiritual struggles. Her experience inspired her to write children's books about grief, filling a crucial gap in literature for middle-grade readers who need narratives validating their experiences.
A beautiful metaphor emerges: both sorrow and joy can coexist like liquids in a coffee cup, with love serving as the bridge between them. We grieve because we love, and eventually, that same love allows us to experience joy again—not as a replacement for our loss, but alongside it.
Whether you're currently walking through grief or supporting someone who is, this episode offers both comfort and practical wisdom. As Dr. Woodbridge reminds us, "You have to heal before you reveal," and sometimes the path to the high places of joy necessarily travels through the valleys of sorrow and suffering.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
All right, everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
We are getting close to episode100, and I'm really excited
because these next couple ofepisodes are real, special, very
timely for a lot of things thatare going on in my life and the
lives of many others.
But yeah, today I want towelcome Dr Woodbridge.
She is going to introduceherself in a little bit, but
(00:29):
we're going to be talking aboutgrief today and, as you guys
know, if you've been followingthe podcast, we talk about many
issues that deal with howChristians can cope with pain,
can work through struggles andultimately connect with God and
connect with each other.
So I'm excited about today'sepisode and I'm looking forward
to you guys hearing yourquestions or anything about it.
(00:51):
But yeah, Dr Woodbridge, wouldyou do us the honor of just kind
of introducing yourself,sharing your background and
experience and anything thatadds to this topic?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Wow Okay, adds to this topic.
Wow, okay.
Well, I experienced loss earlyin my marriage with my husband
and that was through pregnancyloss.
So we lost some babies duringthat time.
So God very quickly taught meearly on about how I should
(01:25):
navigate my grief.
He taught me that he's therefor me, that he loves me, and I
came to terms with my own littleones being in the arms of Jesus
.
And what better place couldthey be if they could not be in
my arms.
So I learned early on that wayProbably should backtrack a
(01:45):
little bit.
Yeah, I had a saving knowledgeof Jesus Christ when I was six
years old.
I, my parents, had just divorced, I was kind of staying with my
grandparents some of the timeand we had gone in for a surgery
, a tonsillectomy, which ispretty common surgery for young
(02:06):
children.
But I woke up when I wasrecovering, you know, at their
home.
I woke up in the middle of thenight, bleeding, you know.
The stitches had come undonefrom from.
The stitches are from thetonsillectomy, and so I ended up
having to be rushed back to thehospital, get a transfusion,
(02:27):
you know, get everything undercontrol, redo the surgery and
then go home.
Well, my grandparents had beentaking me to church during that
time.
So I was very familiar withthis tall, dark, dark gentleman,
you know, he's kind of kind ofa bigger man, but his name was
(02:49):
Reverend Winters, and I saw himcome into my hospital room and I
told him.
I said the Lord saved my life,so I need you to baptize me.
So.
(03:09):
So I had a kind of an earlyinkling, you, that god, god had
done something special for me,and while he did not say yes to
baptism right away, it took fouryears for me to coax him and
tell him that I really actuallydid understand.
It wasn't more than it was, morethan just saving my life, but
it was.
I understood what it was allabout.
Um, so I've had an early, Iwould say, an attachment to god
(03:33):
since that time.
So when you are a child and youtrust god, you trust him
implicitly.
You know there, you know no, oh, if you'll do this for me.
No, it's kind of like okay, yousaid it, you meant it, I'm here
to represent it.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So yeah well, dr Woodridge, as you kind of shared
a little bit about that, I knowwe want to transition or
discuss about grief.
Yeah, where would?
Where would we be a good startfor us to talk about grief,
maybe defining it?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yes, I think it is that unexpected moment of pain,
of loss.
I mean, I wrote, I wrote in thebeginning for children.
Children were on my heartbecause of my own children
experiencing grief from thesudden loss of their dad.
He had passed away suddenly.
(04:29):
We had a diagnosis on thursdayum of colon cancer and friday he
died.
It was that quick, oh wow.
So it was very sudden.
So the the book I wrote wrotewas about the sudden loss of a
dad, and so I chose to writefrom a girl's point of view at
(04:54):
this point.
It's a 10-year-old girl, joyOvercame Sorrow and she lost her
dad suddenly from a caraccident.
Because that was kind of likethe situation that my kids found
themselves in.
Even though we had a cancerdiagnosis, we had no anticipated
grief.
So how do you deal with thissudden loss?
(05:15):
So this first book is going tofocus on a sudden loss.
The second book will probablyfocus somewhere on a sudden loss
, but it'll be like a twin loss,because the siblings, you know,
and that special connection, um, but I do see writing more
books and someone may say, whywould you want to write books
(05:36):
for children about grief?
The reason why is because thesechildren there's a lot of
picture books out there and andthey're great, you know, when
you lose your dog, you know,lose your grandparent they're
wonderful for that age group.
But what was missing was thenarration, was the story, where
(05:56):
they could follow a characterthat actually went through grief
.
See, maybe there's some waysthat we can navigate the grief.
I mean, this is just oneperson's journey and then what
can we learn from that?
You know, how can we supporteach other?
Because when I was trying toget back into social media, I
(06:20):
was off for a couple years andtrying to get back into social
media, because this is what youdo when you promote your book,
right Is?
I found that there were adultswith unresolved grief because
they had lost someone when theywere young.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Yeah.
And I was just like wow, and Iwas just like wow.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
You know I wasn't aware.
You know when I started thisprocess that you know that
that's really kind of what wewant to take away from this is
how can we help children?
The grief is there.
They have to face it.
They go through it.
We all go through it.
I was going through it as a mom.
You know I did.
You know I had a choice to getmarried.
(07:03):
I said yes and then I did nothave a choice when my husband
died, so I became a widow.
I did not say yes to that, hadto talk to the Lord about that
and single parenthood.
But you know these are why weneed to have the conversations,
yeah, and so I know when I wasgoing through my grief process
(07:28):
early on first year, you'resupposed to try to keep
everything normal that's whatthey advise anyway and you know,
to offer stability and Ithought that was a good idea as
a parent to try to do that.
Second year I needed a job, soI moved to cross country.
So I had a new job, new house.
Again.
Grief came in little momentsbut you know I kind of
(07:52):
suppressed it somewhat.
Um, didn't really focus on it.
But year three, grief was likeI'm not leaving you alone until
you deal with me.
Really what?
Speaker 1 (08:02):
did that look like.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I would say it's like having a thousand hornets
around your head, you know,trying to.
You know, get you to focus andlook at all these different
emotions, because we know griefis not step, step, step, step.
Um, I saw a really good youtubevideo of a guy that's climbing
(08:25):
a staircase and below is thetrampoline, so they're playing
like this beautiful violin music, and the guy's climbing up the
staircase and then he falls okay, moment of grief bounces back
up, bounces back up on the chairon the stairs.
You know, over and over andover again, this keeps happening
.
That's what grief is like.
(08:46):
It's more like a swirl.
You never know you don't knowwhen the grief triggers are
going to happen.
You don't know what's going tocause a grief trigger.
I know when I was takingballroom dance class I had a
(09:07):
breakdown right on the ballroomdance floor during the lesson.
Because when life feels out ofcontrol, it can stir up panic
attacks.
It could stir up all thesefeelings of grief.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, was there any connection to that with
something with your husband orit was just a random moment?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I think it was a moment of frustration because
it's like I was trying so hardto learn the pattern.
You know, I mean I went.
I chose to go ballroom dancingbecause number one, music is
very healing for me, yeah, youknow, and I needed to move.
I was tired of being stuck.
(09:42):
I needed to be moved and allthe connections I had with other
couples from with my husband, Ididn't feel like they were.
I never wanted another woman tofeel unsafe around me, so I
withdrew.
But I needed to find anothersocial network that I could have
(10:05):
some kind of social connection.
I needed to learn who is Jerrywithout Dave?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, that was a tough transition.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
It was but my daughter and I.
My daughter was in the car withme.
We drove up.
I passed Arthur Murray studiomany, many times during that six
months and finally I just said,hey, julie, julie, go in with
me for moral support.
And she did.
And this dance studio owner andinstructor, I will always
(10:37):
appreciate him, ahmed.
He was Egyptian, he knew thegift of hospitality.
He welcomed him in with, youknow, with both arms.
He's like, oh, I see the priceof I can get money from two of
these beautiful ladies.
But he really made a differencein helping us to heal.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
What was it?
Did he do anything specifically?
Was it just kind of beingpresent, providing community?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Like what was?
I think it was his presence.
He was one of those people.
It's like if he walked in thedoor, sam, he'd be like hey, sam
, come over here.
Let me introduce you to Jerry.
So he was a connector.
I mean he was a connector, hewas definitely.
He formed a community of peoplethat just cared about each
other.
Yeah, that's awesome.
(11:32):
So I mean, obviously we wereall kind of tuned in with the
dancing, but it was more thanthat, it was a community.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
For me, yeah, yeah, you know, dr Woodridge, I work
with a lot of trauma clients andone of the biggest buffers that
they can implement to mitigatethe effect of a traumatic event
is to have strong social support.
But, as you were sharing, Ithink one of the things that
(12:01):
happens is that sometimes theperson receives strong social
support initially and then itslowly fades away and, for
whatever reason, you know it'dbe that everyone starts getting
busy, or we realize it's just amoment in time, or, you know,
people just move on with theirlives, but the person who's
experiencing the grief continuesto wrestle with that.
(12:23):
Who's experiencing the griefcontinues to wrestle with that.
You know, and I imagine thepicture that you painted of um.
He said uh, you know, when Ilost my husband I didn't sign up
for that, so I had to have aconversation with him about that
, with god, about that, right,you know?
tell me about that, what wasthat like?
Because I mean, it's not a,it's not a one-time conversation
, you know no no, it's notconversation, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
No, no, it's not.
It revolved around my identity.
It's like, okay, you know, Imade choices.
You know, yes, I made a choice.
I became a teacher, as part ofmy identity.
I made a choice to serve theLord.
That's part of my identity.
I made a choice to become awife.
That was my identity.
I made a choice to havechildren.
That became my identity.
But then, when one of thosepieces that I made a choice from
(13:10):
it felt completely out ofcontrol, what do I do?
And who am I now?
Because I'm 42.
I was 42 when I lost my husband.
And what do I do now?
How am I supposed to, you know,raise my children in the way
(13:33):
that I know my husband and Iwould have liked our children to
be raised, and how can I dothat?
So you know financialrestrictions, you know.
So you know financialrestrictions, you know just
society.
I mean this hurry up and findsomeone else and move along.
No, that doesn't work.
Well, I felt a lot.
(13:54):
I felt there was pressurebecause everybody looks at you
like oh, you're young, you canstill like, not really because
I'm invested, you know, with myfamily.
So it was definitely an identitything.
So I had to go.
I wrote a chapter in my firstbook, this little widow's
devotional book that I created,called Trading my Stars for the
(14:16):
Joy of the Lord, and I wrote achapter called Mrs who.
Because who am I, who am I inyour eyes, lord?
Because who am I, who am I inyour eyes, lord?
And when you start studyingscripture and I think we as a
Christian community andcommunity in general need to
study a little bit more it saysthat God will protect and
(14:38):
provide and keep the widow'sboundaries intact.
So woe to those who mess withus, because when they're not
messing with us, they're messingwith them.
But having that understandingof oh okay, you know, made me
(14:59):
feel less alone.
You know, like you know, I hadGod on my side.
You know he saw me.
As you know, like you know, Ihad God on my side.
You know he saw me, as you know, someone precious.
You know that he was going toprovide and protect, as well as
my children, and then I couldhave confidence, you know, to
continue to do what he called meto do.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, Were there times where you were angry at
God.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Oh, sure, okay he can handle it.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Yeah, what were those conversations like?
I think it's funny, because inChristian communities.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
I often think that, especially when we're sharing
with others, like you know, sohard.
I went through this, but Itrusted the Lord.
But we, we almost hide thedifficult conversations that we
have with the Lord where, lord Idon't.
Why did you do this to me?
I've been faithful, I've beendoing this, I've been doing that
.
I thought I was going in theright direction, and then why
did you allow this to happen?
(15:57):
You know typical conversations.
Was that pretty familiar?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Pretty familiar and, and the fact is is I knew
without a shadow of a doubt thatthe Lord had provided my
husband for me.
Knew, without a shadow of adoubt, and I'm trying to
remember why I knew that, but Idid.
I knew even before we startedgoing out.
(16:22):
Really.
That I was going to marry him.
Yeah, I told my mom on theairplane as we were flying up to
New Hampshire that's where shewas still living at the time and
I said I know who I'm going tomarry, I just knew.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Were you guys friends beforehand or you just knew him
from around?
Speaker 2 (16:40):
We were friends.
I had graduated from collegeEastern Nazarene College and
gone to get my first job in aChristian school and met him in
the singles group there at ourchurch.
That was part of that Christianschool.
Our church, that was part ofthat Christian school.
(17:01):
And it was interesting becauseGod gave me who I needed,
Because there had been a lot ofother childhood trauma in my
life.
And David was that person thatcould help heal me, that could
help support me and believe inme Before he passed away.
(17:27):
We went on a trip and the tripwas for me to go present my
dissertation results at aconference.
So he had supported me thewhole time while I'm going
through the process, when I'dgone through the masters, when
I'd gone through changingdifferent jobs with teaching,
(17:47):
all of this, and he sat in theround it was a round table
presentation and he just kind ofsat back and watched and then
he came to me and goes you know,that's the first time I
actually understood what youwere doing and I was just like
that was such a gift that thatgod had provided that he got to
(18:07):
see what he helped to support.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's really great.
I love that.
Um, you know, I'm thinkingabout that, about that
conversation of anger towardsthe Lord.
One of the concepts inattachment is this idea of
rupture and repair.
You know those moments likethat where something's taken or
(18:31):
when we feel like God's beingunjust, there's this rupture
between our relationship withGod.
It's like, ah, you know Lord.
I'm not liking you right now,I'm not liking this, but what
creates a safety or secureattachment to God is the repair
piece.
How do we repair this?
So what was that repair processlooking like for you?
How did God repair your trustin him?
(18:51):
Or just yeah, what was therepair process like for you?
Speaker 2 (18:56):
seeking answers because I, you know, I wanted to
know, okay, who, who am I andwho are you, and how, how are we
going?
How are we going to get throughthis?
Um, so you know, going back tothe, to the scriptures, it
wasn't a holier than thou kindof thing, it was kind of like I
need answers.
(19:17):
Yeah, um, and you know, again,with the, with the journal,
writing um, capturing, capturingthat little hornet and putting
it down on paper allowed me tofocus on one thought, one idea
look through scripture, throughthat, so that I I could get some
(19:37):
resolution.
Yeah, too, because it's notjust like, okay, well, you know,
it's god's will blah, blah,blah, you know that's that's not
really helpful, people, right?
um, you know, we have to know,we have to learn for ourselves
and we have to be able to trustfor ourselves and we have to be
(20:02):
able to trust that what he sayshe will do.
And so when I had all thosescriptures kind of laid out and
studied and, you know, record itin my journal or whatever, then
I could start saying, okay, Ican see how he's teaching me,
how he's helping me, you knowhow he's still with me, and and
then I could uh, get someresolution.
Now I was invited to go to awriter conference, um, kind of a
(20:24):
last minute thing affiliatedwith my work, and, um, I didn't
know what I was going to do, I Ijust grabbed, I just went home,
packed up because it was thelast minute thing grabbed my
journals and went there, andthat's when the widow's
devotional um came about, that'swhen that idea was promoted.
But why I wrote, joy overcamesorrow was because I wanted to
(20:49):
do a tedx speech oh, really, Idid, did you apply, did you
submit everything?
I applied, I had backstagepasses.
I went to a meeting with agroup of businesswomen for the
next day and I told them what Iwanted to talk about and they're
like we don't really understandwhat you're going to do.
(21:10):
Are you going to dance on stage?
You know what I'm like.
I'm going to talk about how.
You know how this helped me.
So they looked at me like I hadthree horns on my head and so
when you get nervous like that,you get put on the spot, you
start elaborating and I'm going.
Well, I'm a teacher.
(21:31):
So you know I've taught.
You know, like I've had a fifthgrader you know boy that had
lost his dad to cancer a fewyears prior to me having him in
my class.
So because I understood I'dexperienced the grieving process
, I was more aware and moreattuned to what he was going
(21:51):
through.
So they looked at me and theysaid you should write a
children's book.
My first response was not joyit was annoying.
But um, but then that littleidea just kind of you know,
tickled my ear and I'm like uhwell, let's give it a try, let's
(22:12):
see, let's see what can happen.
It just took me a little bitlonger than I wanted to figure
it out.
Yeah, because I'd never writtenfiction before.
You write academic, you writepoetry.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I mean you write newspapers.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I feel, yeah, that that's a hard transition yeah it
was a hard transition, and thenfiguring out that the books
that are out there available forchildren, especially for middle
grade readers, is not reallytalking about this subject at
all.
Yeah.
There might be a couple booksout there, like Bridge Over
Terabithia, that talks about aloss of a friend, very good
(22:49):
friend.
But, it's not the whole bookand it's not talking about the
grief journey.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, yeah.
So, with that being said, youknow I'm thinking about the
situation you coming to widow,single mother now, and not just
managing your own emotions withgrief, but also trying to figure
out how are your childrenfeeling throughout this process,
you know, and how they'regrieving, the process and you
(23:16):
know to your point, you know Iknow we briefly talked about
this just the idea of, yeah,children are resilient, but that
resilience also comes with alot of support from their
surroundings be parents, be x inthe family members church, um,
yeah, but to your point, it canbe a misconception.
Tell us more about that.
What's the misunderstandingthat people have about how
(23:36):
children grieve?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
I think we want to protect our children from
feeling pain.
Yeah, so we entertain them, wedon't talk about it.
Or, you know, we only talkabout it when we have to kind of
thing, because we're taking ourcues from them, when it's
(23:59):
probably more like we're sooverwhelmed with our own grief
that we may not be as observantor as empathetic at that point
because we're we're hurtourselves.
Yeah, so if we can helpchildren have something where
(24:20):
they can learn the skillswithout it being quite right
there to them, you know, like,like, joy isn't as a fictional
character, but I have to tellyou, a friend of mine gave a
book to a little boy, uh, thathad just lost his grandmother
and he's reading in church andhe comes to her after church and
(24:41):
he says so how do you know joy?
so the character is relatable,so they have to be authentic and
relatable.
But you watch her just gothrough her journey and it's she
knows at the end of the bookshe's not done grieving.
But she realizes something hergrief is tied to her con, her
(25:06):
love for her father.
She loves her dad.
She will always be grieving.
There will always be, never willmoments you know that she
wished he could be there for um.
You know that she wished hecould be there for um, but she
says the sorrow is fading, notbecause of time, because of how
she's processed that's goodbecause, because she, she was
(25:31):
given a journal by her.
well, this is, this is what Iproduced, but she's given a
journal by her cousin april, andher cousin April said hey, joy,
I'm going to give you thisjournal so you can write all the
good memories of all the thingsthat people are talking about
your dad when we go to thefuneral.
Which was brilliant, it wasinsightful, it was like, yes,
(25:53):
because children are so afraidthat they're going to forget
their loved one, that they'regoing to forget.
They so afraid that they'regoing to forget their loved one,
that they're going to forget,they're not going to know their
voice anymore, that they're notgoing to, you know, recognize
them in pictures and things likethat.
So these are things that wehave to think about how can we
(26:14):
preserve their loved one'smemories but also, taking cues
from them, what they need?
So joy happened to startrecording those things that
people would say, and then shefound that was an outlet for her
to write about her dad andrecord her memories so she does
(26:38):
not forget him.
And so now she doesn't justhave a sad book, she has all the
good things, all the wonderfulthings that she can carry with
her um, not only in the book,but in her heart, yeah, and and
heal.
And now she can embrace hername, which her dad gave her for
(27:01):
a reason.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I remember hearing one time this illustration of
grief is very much like this.
They say like a box I don'tknow if they say like a box of
flowers or just a box, closedbox that you carry around with
you all the time and you don'treally address until people ask
you about it.
And as they know your story,does that seem like a fair?
So you're carrying around thegrief and people say, hey, what
(27:25):
do you got there?
Oh, let me tell you about it Toyour point.
Kind of these highlightmemories of positive things that
they do remember about theperson that they lost.
Would that be a fair way toexpress that?
Or how would you describe that?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Would that be a fair way to express that or how would
you describe that?
I have a coffee cup and I thinkthis is brilliant.
I mean, I didn't do it, itwasn't my idea, but when I saw
it I said brilliant, it was acoffee cup.
Now, what can you pour in acoffee cup?
Can you pour sorrow?
Yes.
Can you pour joy?
Can your coffee cup hold both?
Yes.
(28:03):
So here's the bridge betweensorrow and joy is love.
So I I have a picture in my headand I put it on my social media
.
It's basically got a footbridge.
You know has two points rightover here.
Here's joy, here sorrow.
When we are in grief, it'sbecause of our love for that
person.
We miss them.
We love them.
Okay, when we are rejoicing,like wow, you're doing a podcast
(28:29):
, Sam, you know that's becausewe love Sam.
You know we're rejoicing so wecan have both in our hearts at
the same time.
Yeah.
And that connection is our love.
Right right.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
So it's not either or Was that a time thing to
understand?
Because I could almost imagine,at least when I think about
losses that I personally haveexperienced.
There's these real deep momentsof sorrow, and if I'm there
then it's impossible for me toexperience joy at the same time
(29:08):
or experience happiness orcontentment when I'm
experiencing sorrow.
But I think to the point thatyou're making.
I think with time we start torealize that I can try to access
both of those at the same timewhen needed, Because I think the
sorrow provides the memory ofman that was a tough loss.
(29:30):
And then there's thegratefulness is the other word I
was looking for, and thegratefulness for well, you know,
the time that we did havetogether.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
I appreciated, and now I can appreciate that in
other people that are around me,and that makes me grateful, but
I still feel sad, like sure, Imean, I don't think it's a
trade-off, I don't think we haveto give one up for the other,
you know, but can we hold bothof them in our hearts?
Yeah, absolutely.
So I do think that sometimes we, um, we miss the fact that a
(30:06):
joke or a funny story reallydoes help people who've lost
loved ones.
I mean, we all think we have tobe all stoic and you know, you
know all respectful or whatever,but the people who really knew
your loved one are gonna havethose stories and that and that
those are their memories yeah um, and so it's.
(30:28):
It's part of that sharing umyour heart with another person
in the community.
So I I do believe that we'revery good at sympathy.
We're not really great aboutempathy.
So I tell it in the book thestory of Bella, the best friend
(30:51):
of Joy, who just wants things togo back to normal.
You know, I know you lost yourdad.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry to go backto normal.
You know, I know you lost yourdad.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but Ijust want to be able to ride
bikes with you and go to thebutterfly garden and do all
these other things, you know,with you.
I miss you.
You know, that's basically whatshe's trying to get across to
(31:11):
joy, but joy keeps pushing heraway because part of that is
envy and part of that is joy.
I mean, bella still has a dad.
Mm, hmm, yeah.
So, so.
But Joy's very wise mom saysBella, let's talk you, I know
what you want to do, I know youwant your friend back.
(31:32):
I understand, but right now Joyneeds just somebody to sit with
her, listen to her, do nothingwith her, just be with her.
Yeah, just be present.
And so that's another lessonthat I really hope children can
learn.
Yeah.
Is that they don't have to fixit.
(31:53):
Can we fix it?
Can we fix our children's grief?
Can we?
fix it?
Can we fix our children's grief?
All we can do is listen and beavailable and be present and you
know and try to support.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's interesting because I
think when we most people'sattempts at being empathetic is
saying the right thing, and Ithink the point that we're
making here is, no, sometimesthere are no words to say, it's
just be there.
Just be there, and they feelthat presence more than words
(32:30):
that may not make sense at thetime or that aren't helpful.
Really, presence is verypowerful.
You mentioned earlier that wedon't often allow kids to grieve
and if they don't grieve, thenthey kind of carry that over
into their young adulthood.
So, for those who are listening, my audience is about 22 to 44
(32:55):
around there.
So young adults or even olderadults that never really dealt
with their grief, you know whatare some ways, I guess, in which
grief manifests itself in, youknow, young adults, just adults
in general.
What does it look like?
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Well, it's definitely going to affect their identity,
and we know, especially youknow, as teens or young adults,
you, you know, when it doesaffect your identity, it can
also put you in the category ofrisky behavior, mm-hmm.
So so I'm gonna use an example.
My son was 12.
(33:32):
He's having panic attacks.
I didn't know it, hmm, and inhis mind he thought he was going
to die, just like his dad.
Suddenly.
Okay.
So if you carry that idea,those thoughts because your
parents or your loved onesaround you don't know what's
(33:54):
going on, that can lead intoriskier behaviors.
Yeah.
Because you're just trying tofind something that's going to
make you feel better mm-hmm so,you know, I think it can go into
that, I think you can.
It affects them spiritually forsure, because our, our parent,
(34:17):
our father represent, you know,and God, that relationship is
fatherly.
So if there's no reconciliationfrom losing that earthly father
, that's going to impact yourheavenly father relationship.
(34:39):
I also think behavior outbursts.
Like I said, I was on dancefloor, didn't know what was
happening, I was getting alittle frustrated and then
boo-hoo, it was bad.
And poor Arnold, he didn't knowwhat to do with me because he
wasn't my usual teacher.
But yeah, we don't know whenthose moments or triggers are
(35:01):
going to happen.
You know, kids get in troubleand all of a sudden we're like
what happened, and people whohave not had grief or been
attuned to what that kid isgoing through may look at that
as just oh, that was just a baddecision, bad action, Whereas
there might be something more toit than that.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Yeah, so there's withdrawal, avoidance,
risk-taking behaviors yeah, andthere's that, you're right.
There's that misunderstandingof when they are going through
something and behaving in waysthat don't really make sense
from their typical behavior.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
You know it's unaddressed grief or other
problems you know, know, andthey may not even know why
they're doing it exactly,exactly, yeah so you know,
they're still processing.
So finally, when my son was 17,he came and told me I was
having panic attacks.
I'm like really, I didn't knowbecause, because how, how I
(35:58):
would have responded at thatpoint if I had that piece of
information, would have beendifferent.
Yeah yeah, but I just, you know,that's why I always kind of
bring that up, because it'ssomething that we're not always
self-aware yeah, that panicattacks and grief go hand in
hand.
And then, when you have momentswhere you feel out of control,
(36:22):
all of a sudden you got it, andso how can we deal with the
anxiety?
How can we teach our childreneven emotional self-regulation?
You know, when you get angry,when you get really frustrated,
hey, stop breathe.
You know, allow that oxygen toget to your brain.
(36:42):
You know, allow that oxygen toget to your brain so you can
make a better decision than justtaking a train and throwing it
across the room.
Yeah yeah, so these are waysthat I think you know impact
children.
And then we have, like mydaughter she suffered with
depression prior to losing herdad, but yeah so we had to kind
(37:07):
of be real aware of how hisdeath was impacting her.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, yeah, and with teenagers and young adults, when
they see their parentssuffering, they often don't
share because they don't want toadd more to the parents' plate,
you know.
And so they're there wrestlingwith it themselves, feeling not
isolated but lonely, orwrestling through those things
(37:34):
themselves until the parenteither comes to an understanding
of their own grief and then isable to share with their
children, or, if they're justthere present with them.
But yeah, oftentimes I do see,especially with the oldest one,
like the oldest one feels likethis burden, okay, I have to be
there for my younger siblingsand then I don't want to burden
my mom or dad with this, and soon.
So there's a lot going on,right, yeah, so I can definitely
(37:59):
see all that.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
It is definitely more complex so I can definitely see
all that.
It is definitely more complexum but it's a universal
experience.
Yeah, yeah, so okay.
So how did?
How did me losing babies, youknow, that promise of you know,
you know, having another son ordaughter, um, you know, set me
up for maybe the next loss?
(38:21):
Well, because I came to termswith it and because my
relationship still was solidwith the Lord and and with my
family, um, I had that supportthat helped.
I mean, I still had a differentexperience to go through, still
had to deal with all the grief,but at least I had some
(38:43):
background to understand what Iwas feeling and what I was going
through with children and andteenagers that have never had
that exposure.
They don't yeah so we have to,um, we have to be their voice.
Yeah, you know we have to sharethese stories and, you know,
(39:04):
have these discussions.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Yeah, I agree.
I agree, you know, as believers, you know our experience of
grief is similar to anyone's,but it's how we respond that may
be different to how others mayrespond.
You know some, maybenon-believers, and maybe even
some believers do this as well,but mostly non-believers where
they turn to either vices orother addictions or things like
(39:28):
that.
But for us, as believers, whatrole does faith play in
processing loss andrediscovering joy, which are two
very hard things to you know,put together in the same
sentence, right, loss and joy?
Um, but yeah, can you sharewith us a little bit about what
that was like to be comforted bygod's word?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
yeah, I mean we've got psalm uh 34, 18, which says
the lord is close to thebrokenhearted and saves those
who are crushed in spirit.
That tells me he's got aspecial place in his heart for
me, you know, becausebrokenhearted.
Okay, so he's not overlookingme.
He's not telling me okay, getin line, move on.
(40:11):
He's saying I'm here tominister to you.
He also says do not fear, for Iam with you.
Do not be dismayed, for I'myour God.
I will strengthen you and helpyou.
I will uphold you with myrighteous right hand.
Isaiah 41 10.
May the God of hope fill youwith all joy and peace, as you
(40:32):
trust in him.
Okay, there's no other where toget hope Then from him when you
are experiencing suchdevastating loss.
There just isn't.
I mean, you can try a lot ofthings, but all you're doing is
you're just kind of spinningyour wheels until you finally
(40:53):
wear yourself out long enough tolisten to God and say, okay, I
got it.
And then you know we have thehope in Revelations 21.
21 4.
He will wipe away every tearfrom their eyes.
There will be no more death ormourning, or crying or pain, for
the old order of things haspassed away.
(41:14):
Revelations 21 4.
So we have this hope that, okay, what we're feeling now is not
never ending.
We, we are going to experiencejoy, I mean when we are with our
loved ones, with in heaven.
That's amazing.
I mean after jesus christ wentdown and got the keys with the
(41:36):
keys, how the hell and he wentand loosed the, the bosom of
abraham, and all you know, allthe people there, like king
david, and you know all thepeople that could not be quote
saved until jesus came back.
But they had, you know, theylistened to the message, they
were waiting for him.
They're like, we're ready let'sgo.
(42:00):
But uh, you know, same thing.
I had a friend, you know, earlyon when I lost these babies and
, um, you know, I was feelingkind of sad.
So I was talking to her andshe's like you, lucky duck, and
I went what she goes.
You have four heavenly depositsin heaven already, you know, to
(42:20):
your name.
They're waiting for you and I'mlike I never thought of it that
way, but isn't that what webelieve?
Speaker 1 (42:27):
yeah, I love, uh, I love how you mentioned how your
test becomes your testimony toshare with others and in one of
your responses, um and this isactually one of my favorite
passages as well that you listedsecond corinthians 3 to 5, that
praise be to the God and Fatherof the Lord Jesus Christ, the
Father of compassion, the God ofall comfort, who comforts us in
(42:47):
all our troubles, so that wecan comfort those in any trouble
with the comfort we ourselvesreceive from God.
This is actually one of theverses that led me to pursue
counseling the pain that wasexperienced and understanding
that, and trying to be there forother people.
I think God used this verse tospeak to me regarding that, and
it sounds like it's the samehere for you as well.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
And I appreciate that it's part of the healing
process, I think.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Yeah, to be able to minister to others.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
To be able to minister to others.
Yeah, because it's like sayingtake this pain, god, your
redemptive God, you can redeemthis pain and make it work and
benefit and help others.
That's our, that's his plan,that's that's I mean.
If we have no otherunderstanding other than pain,
(43:37):
usually there is a purposesomewhere.
Yeah.
But if we give it to him, hecan redeem it and he can use it
to help others.
That's what it's all about.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, I agree.
I agree, Dr Woodbridge.
This has been a greatconversation.
You know, it kind of leaves ushere at the end of someone
listening someone experiencingsome sort of pain, some sort of
loss, is grieving something,someone right now.
What would you share with themas a piece of advice, some steps
(44:10):
to take, as they're currentlygrieving a loss?
Speaker 2 (44:16):
First of all, I want to acknowledge your pain because
it is real and your pain comesfrom the deep love that you had
for this person and there is noreplacement for this person.
Um, and there is no easy exitoff of the grief process process
(44:41):
.
You will have to go throughthis process.
How you make meaning out of theprocess is really up to you,
but I would encourage you, seekthe Father's heart, ask him the
question, tell him I am angry, Ineed, I don't want to be angry
(45:06):
with you, lord, but right nowI'm angry because nothing makes
sense.
So please renew my mind, renewmy heart, help me get to a place
of healing so that maybe theyare a parent, then they can be
more available to help theirchildren, or maybe they are a
(45:28):
friend and somebody is goingthrough cancer, so that they can
use their pain and know thatthey can heal from it.
You got to heal before youreveal and once you have an
understanding of that, you canbe a better human being or
(45:50):
person in life, because you youhave a better understanding what
joy is all about.
I don't think you really trulyunderstand joy without knowing
sorrow.
Yeah, I agree.
My favorite children's book isHinds Feet on High Places by
Hannah Hunard, and the GreatShepherd gives Much Afraid the
(46:11):
main character, two companionssorrow and suffering to help her
get to the high places.
Because she's crippled, she'sgot a crooked mouth.
You know she needs help to beable to go to the high places
because she's crippled, she'sgot a crooked mouth.
She, you know she needs help tobe able to go to the high
places.
And when she finally embracesthe sorrow and the suffering,
(46:32):
they get her to the high places.
And then the lord changes hername from much afraid to grace
and glory beautiful.
Beautiful story.
Get the children's version.
It's very, very powerful.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
Thank you, dr Woodbridge.
I really appreciate your timeand sharing your story and also
giving some great insights hereon grief, and I know it's going
to be a blessing.
I actually have a couple ofpeople in mind who are going
through right now a season ofdeep, deep, painful grief and
(47:09):
they listen to the podcast, sohopefully this is a blessing.
But, yeah, thank you for yourtime, hope we can do some other
time, some time.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
Absolutely, I love it .
I love it.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Thank you so much, Dr Woodbridge.
You have a good evening, okay.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
All right, thank you.
All right, everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
We are getting close to episode100, and I'm really excited
because these next couple ofepisodes are real, special, very
timely for a lot of things thatare going on in my life and the
lives of many others.
But yeah, today I want towelcome Dr Woodbridge.
She is going to introduceherself in a little bit, but
(00:29):
we're going to be talking aboutgrief today and, as you guys
know, if you've been followingthe podcast, we talk about many
issues that deal with howChristians can cope with pain,
can work through struggles andultimately connect with God and
connect with each other.
So I'm excited about today'sepisode and I'm looking forward
to you guys hearing yourquestions or anything about it.
(00:51):
But yeah, Dr Woodbridge, wouldyou do us the honor of just kind
of introducing yourself,sharing your background and
experience and anything thatadds to this topic?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Wow Okay, adds to this topic.
Wow, okay.
Well, I experienced loss earlyin my marriage with my husband
and that was through pregnancyloss.
So we lost some babies duringthat time.
So God very quickly taught meearly on about how I should
(01:25):
navigate my grief.
He taught me that he's therefor me, that he loves me, and I
came to terms with my own littleones being in the arms of Jesus
.
And what better place couldthey be if they could not be in
my arms.
So I learned early on that wayProbably should backtrack a
(01:45):
little bit.
Yeah, I had a saving knowledgeof Jesus Christ when I was six
years old.
I, my parents, had just divorced, I was kind of staying with my
grandparents some of the timeand we had gone in for a surgery
, a tonsillectomy, which ispretty common surgery for young
(02:06):
children.
But I woke up when I wasrecovering, you know, at their
home.
I woke up in the middle of thenight, bleeding, you know.
The stitches had come undonefrom from.
The stitches are from thetonsillectomy, and so I ended up
having to be rushed back to thehospital, get a transfusion,
(02:27):
you know, get everything undercontrol, redo the surgery and
then go home.
Well, my grandparents had beentaking me to church during that
time.
So I was very familiar withthis tall, dark, dark gentleman,
you know, he's kind of kind ofa bigger man, but his name was
(02:49):
Reverend Winters, and I saw himcome into my hospital room and I
told him.
I said the Lord saved my life,so I need you to baptize me.
So.
(03:09):
So I had a kind of an earlyinkling, you, that god, god had
done something special for me,and while he did not say yes to
baptism right away, it took fouryears for me to coax him and
tell him that I really actuallydid understand.
It wasn't more than it was, morethan just saving my life, but
it was.
I understood what it was allabout.
Um, so I've had an early, Iwould say, an attachment to god
(03:33):
since that time.
So when you are a child and youtrust god, you trust him
implicitly.
You know there, you know no, oh, if you'll do this for me.
No, it's kind of like okay, yousaid it, you meant it, I'm here
to represent it.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
So yeah well, dr Woodridge, as you kind of shared
a little bit about that, I knowwe want to transition or
discuss about grief.
Yeah, where would?
Where would we be a good startfor us to talk about grief,
maybe defining it?
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yes, I think it is that unexpected moment of pain,
of loss.
I mean, I wrote, I wrote in thebeginning for children.
Children were on my heartbecause of my own children
experiencing grief from thesudden loss of their dad.
He had passed away suddenly.
(04:29):
We had a diagnosis on thursdayum of colon cancer and friday he
died.
It was that quick, oh wow.
So it was very sudden.
So the the book I wrote wrotewas about the sudden loss of a
dad, and so I chose to writefrom a girl's point of view at
(04:54):
this point.
It's a 10-year-old girl, joyOvercame Sorrow and she lost her
dad suddenly from a caraccident.
Because that was kind of likethe situation that my kids found
themselves in.
Even though we had a cancerdiagnosis, we had no anticipated
grief.
So how do you deal with thissudden loss?
(05:15):
So this first book is going tofocus on a sudden loss.
The second book will probablyfocus somewhere on a sudden loss
, but it'll be like a twin loss,because the siblings, you know,
and that special connection, um, but I do see writing more
books and someone may say, whywould you want to write books
(05:36):
for children about grief?
The reason why is because thesechildren there's a lot of
picture books out there and andthey're great, you know, when
you lose your dog, you know,lose your grandparent they're
wonderful for that age group.
But what was missing was thenarration, was the story, where
(05:56):
they could follow a characterthat actually went through grief
.
See, maybe there's some waysthat we can navigate the grief.
I mean, this is just oneperson's journey and then what
can we learn from that?
You know, how can we supporteach other?
Because when I was trying toget back into social media, I
(06:20):
was off for a couple years andtrying to get back into social
media, because this is what youdo when you promote your book,
right Is?
I found that there were adultswith unresolved grief because
they had lost someone when theywere young.
Speaker 3 (06:39):
Yeah.
And I was just like wow, and Iwas just like wow.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
You know I wasn't aware.
You know when I started thisprocess that you know that
that's really kind of what wewant to take away from this is
how can we help children?
The grief is there.
They have to face it.
They go through it.
We all go through it.
I was going through it as a mom.
You know I did.
You know I had a choice to getmarried.
(07:03):
I said yes and then I did nothave a choice when my husband
died, so I became a widow.
I did not say yes to that, hadto talk to the Lord about that
and single parenthood.
But you know these are why weneed to have the conversations,
yeah, and so I know when I wasgoing through my grief process
(07:28):
early on first year, you'resupposed to try to keep
everything normal that's whatthey advise anyway and you know,
to offer stability and Ithought that was a good idea as
a parent to try to do that.
Second year I needed a job, soI moved to cross country.
So I had a new job, new house.
Again.
Grief came in little momentsbut you know I kind of
(07:52):
suppressed it somewhat.
Um, didn't really focus on it.
But year three, grief was likeI'm not leaving you alone until
you deal with me.
Really what?
Speaker 1 (08:02):
did that look like.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
I would say it's like having a thousand hornets
around your head, you know,trying to.
You know, get you to focus andlook at all these different
emotions, because we know griefis not step, step, step, step.
Um, I saw a really good youtubevideo of a guy that's climbing
(08:25):
a staircase and below is thetrampoline, so they're playing
like this beautiful violin music, and the guy's climbing up the
staircase and then he falls okay, moment of grief bounces back
up, bounces back up on the chairon the stairs.
You know, over and over andover again, this keeps happening
.
That's what grief is like.
(08:46):
It's more like a swirl.
You never know you don't knowwhen the grief triggers are
going to happen.
You don't know what's going tocause a grief trigger.
I know when I was takingballroom dance class I had a
(09:07):
breakdown right on the ballroomdance floor during the lesson.
Because when life feels out ofcontrol, it can stir up panic
attacks.
It could stir up all thesefeelings of grief.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yeah, was there any connection to that with
something with your husband orit was just a random moment?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
I think it was a moment of frustration because
it's like I was trying so hardto learn the pattern.
You know, I mean I went.
I chose to go ballroom dancingbecause number one, music is
very healing for me, yeah, youknow, and I needed to move.
I was tired of being stuck.
(09:42):
I needed to be moved and allthe connections I had with other
couples from with my husband, Ididn't feel like they were.
I never wanted another woman tofeel unsafe around me, so I
withdrew.
But I needed to find anothersocial network that I could have
(10:05):
some kind of social connection.
I needed to learn who is Jerrywithout Dave?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, that was a tough transition.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
It was but my daughter and I.
My daughter was in the car withme.
We drove up.
I passed Arthur Murray studiomany, many times during that six
months and finally I just said,hey, julie, julie, go in with
me for moral support.
And she did.
And this dance studio owner andinstructor, I will always
(10:37):
appreciate him, ahmed.
He was Egyptian, he knew thegift of hospitality.
He welcomed him in with, youknow, with both arms.
He's like, oh, I see the priceof I can get money from two of
these beautiful ladies.
But he really made a differencein helping us to heal.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
What was it?
Did he do anything specifically?
Was it just kind of beingpresent, providing community?
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Like what was?
I think it was his presence.
He was one of those people.
It's like if he walked in thedoor, sam, he'd be like hey, sam
, come over here.
Let me introduce you to Jerry.
So he was a connector.
I mean he was a connector, hewas definitely.
He formed a community of peoplethat just cared about each
other.
Yeah, that's awesome.
(11:32):
So I mean, obviously we wereall kind of tuned in with the
dancing, but it was more thanthat, it was a community.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
For me, yeah, yeah, you know, dr Woodridge, I work
with a lot of trauma clients andone of the biggest buffers that
they can implement to mitigatethe effect of a traumatic event
is to have strong social support.
But, as you were sharing, Ithink one of the things that
(12:01):
happens is that sometimes theperson receives strong social
support initially and then itslowly fades away and, for
whatever reason, you know it'dbe that everyone starts getting
busy, or we realize it's just amoment in time, or, you know,
people just move on with theirlives, but the person who's
experiencing the grief continuesto wrestle with that.
(12:23):
Who's experiencing the griefcontinues to wrestle with that.
You know, and I imagine thepicture that you painted of um.
He said uh, you know, when Ilost my husband I didn't sign up
for that, so I had to have aconversation with him about that
, with god, about that, right,you know?
tell me about that, what wasthat like?
Because I mean, it's not a,it's not a one-time conversation
, you know no no, it's notconversation, you know.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
No, no, it's not.
It revolved around my identity.
It's like, okay, you know, Imade choices.
You know, yes, I made a choice.
I became a teacher, as part ofmy identity.
I made a choice to serve theLord.
That's part of my identity.
I made a choice to become awife.
That was my identity.
I made a choice to havechildren.
That became my identity.
But then, when one of thosepieces that I made a choice from
(13:10):
it felt completely out ofcontrol, what do I do?
And who am I now?
Because I'm 42.
I was 42 when I lost my husband.
And what do I do now?
How am I supposed to, you know,raise my children in the way
(13:33):
that I know my husband and Iwould have liked our children to
be raised, and how can I dothat?
So you know financialrestrictions, you know.
So you know financialrestrictions, you know just
society.
I mean this hurry up and findsomeone else and move along.
No, that doesn't work.
Well, I felt a lot.
(13:54):
I felt there was pressurebecause everybody looks at you
like oh, you're young, you canstill like, not really because
I'm invested, you know, with myfamily.
So it was definitely an identitything.
So I had to go.
I wrote a chapter in my firstbook, this little widow's
devotional book that I created,called Trading my Stars for the
(14:16):
Joy of the Lord, and I wrote achapter called Mrs who.
Because who am I, who am I inyour eyes, lord?
Because who am I, who am I inyour eyes, lord?
And when you start studyingscripture and I think we as a
Christian community andcommunity in general need to
study a little bit more it saysthat God will protect and
(14:38):
provide and keep the widow'sboundaries intact.
So woe to those who mess withus, because when they're not
messing with us, they're messingwith them.
But having that understandingof oh okay, you know, made me
(14:59):
feel less alone.
You know, like you know, I hadGod on my side.
You know he saw me.
As you know, like you know, Ihad God on my side.
You know he saw me, as you know, someone precious.
You know that he was going toprovide and protect, as well as
my children, and then I couldhave confidence, you know, to
continue to do what he called meto do.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Yeah, Were there times where you were angry at
God.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
Oh, sure, okay he can handle it.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
Yeah, what were those conversations like?
I think it's funny, because inChristian communities.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
I often think that, especially when we're sharing
with others, like you know, sohard.
I went through this, but Itrusted the Lord.
But we, we almost hide thedifficult conversations that we
have with the Lord where, lord Idon't.
Why did you do this to me?
I've been faithful, I've beendoing this, I've been doing that
.
I thought I was going in theright direction, and then why
did you allow this to happen?
(15:57):
You know typical conversations.
Was that pretty familiar?
Speaker 2 (16:01):
Pretty familiar and, and the fact is is I knew
without a shadow of a doubt thatthe Lord had provided my
husband for me.
Knew, without a shadow of adoubt, and I'm trying to
remember why I knew that, but Idid.
I knew even before we startedgoing out.
(16:22):
Really.
That I was going to marry him.
Yeah, I told my mom on theairplane as we were flying up to
New Hampshire that's where shewas still living at the time and
I said I know who I'm going tomarry, I just knew.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
Were you guys friends beforehand or you just knew him
from around?
Speaker 2 (16:40):
We were friends.
I had graduated from collegeEastern Nazarene College and
gone to get my first job in aChristian school and met him in
the singles group there at ourchurch.
That was part of that Christianschool.
Our church, that was part ofthat Christian school.
(17:01):
And it was interesting becauseGod gave me who I needed,
Because there had been a lot ofother childhood trauma in my
life.
And David was that person thatcould help heal me, that could
help support me and believe inme Before he passed away.
(17:27):
We went on a trip and the tripwas for me to go present my
dissertation results at aconference.
So he had supported me thewhole time while I'm going
through the process, when I'dgone through the masters, when
I'd gone through changingdifferent jobs with teaching,
(17:47):
all of this, and he sat in theround it was a round table
presentation and he just kind ofsat back and watched and then
he came to me and goes you know,that's the first time I
actually understood what youwere doing and I was just like
that was such a gift that thatgod had provided that he got to
(18:07):
see what he helped to support.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, yeah, no, it's really great.
I love that.
Um, you know, I'm thinkingabout that, about that
conversation of anger towardsthe Lord.
One of the concepts inattachment is this idea of
rupture and repair.
You know those moments likethat where something's taken or
(18:31):
when we feel like God's beingunjust, there's this rupture
between our relationship withGod.
It's like, ah, you know Lord.
I'm not liking you right now,I'm not liking this, but what
creates a safety or secureattachment to God is the repair
piece.
How do we repair this?
So what was that repair processlooking like for you?
How did God repair your trustin him?
(18:51):
Or just yeah, what was therepair process like for you?
Speaker 2 (18:56):
seeking answers because I, you know, I wanted to
know, okay, who, who am I andwho are you, and how, how are we
going?
How are we going to get throughthis?
Um, so you know, going back tothe, to the scriptures, it
wasn't a holier than thou kindof thing, it was kind of like I
need answers.
(19:17):
Yeah, um, and you know, again,with the, with the journal,
writing um, capturing, capturingthat little hornet and putting
it down on paper allowed me tofocus on one thought, one idea
look through scripture, throughthat, so that I I could get some
(19:37):
resolution.
Yeah, too, because it's notjust like, okay, well, you know,
it's god's will blah, blah,blah, you know that's that's not
really helpful, people, right?
um, you know, we have to know,we have to learn for ourselves
and we have to be able to trustfor ourselves and we have to be
(20:02):
able to trust that what he sayshe will do.
And so when I had all thosescriptures kind of laid out and
studied and, you know, record itin my journal or whatever, then
I could start saying, okay, Ican see how he's teaching me,
how he's helping me, you knowhow he's still with me, and and
then I could uh, get someresolution.
Now I was invited to go to awriter conference, um, kind of a
(20:24):
last minute thing affiliatedwith my work, and, um, I didn't
know what I was going to do, I Ijust grabbed, I just went home,
packed up because it was thelast minute thing grabbed my
journals and went there, andthat's when the widow's
devotional um came about, that'swhen that idea was promoted.
But why I wrote, joy overcamesorrow was because I wanted to
(20:49):
do a tedx speech oh, really, Idid, did you apply, did you
submit everything?
I applied, I had backstagepasses.
I went to a meeting with agroup of businesswomen for the
next day and I told them what Iwanted to talk about and they're
like we don't really understandwhat you're going to do.
(21:10):
Are you going to dance on stage?
You know what I'm like.
I'm going to talk about how.
You know how this helped me.
So they looked at me like I hadthree horns on my head and so
when you get nervous like that,you get put on the spot, you
start elaborating and I'm going.
Well, I'm a teacher.
(21:31):
So you know I've taught.
You know, like I've had a fifthgrader you know boy that had
lost his dad to cancer a fewyears prior to me having him in
my class.
So because I understood I'dexperienced the grieving process
, I was more aware and moreattuned to what he was going
(21:51):
through.
So they looked at me and theysaid you should write a
children's book.
My first response was not joyit was annoying.
But um, but then that littleidea just kind of you know,
tickled my ear and I'm like uhwell, let's give it a try, let's
(22:12):
see, let's see what can happen.
It just took me a little bitlonger than I wanted to figure
it out.
Yeah, because I'd never writtenfiction before.
You write academic, you writepoetry.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I mean you write newspapers.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I feel, yeah, that that's a hard transition yeah it
was a hard transition, and thenfiguring out that the books
that are out there available forchildren, especially for middle
grade readers, is not reallytalking about this subject at
all.
Yeah.
There might be a couple booksout there, like Bridge Over
Terabithia, that talks about aloss of a friend, very good
(22:49):
friend.
But, it's not the whole bookand it's not talking about the
grief journey.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, yeah.
So, with that being said, youknow I'm thinking about the
situation you coming to widow,single mother now, and not just
managing your own emotions withgrief, but also trying to figure
out how are your childrenfeeling throughout this process,
you know, and how they'regrieving, the process and you
(23:16):
know to your point, you know Iknow we briefly talked about
this just the idea of, yeah,children are resilient, but that
resilience also comes with alot of support from their
surroundings be parents, be x inthe family members church, um,
yeah, but to your point, it canbe a misconception.
Tell us more about that.
What's the misunderstandingthat people have about how
(23:36):
children grieve?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
I think we want to protect our children from
feeling pain.
Yeah, so we entertain them, wedon't talk about it.
Or, you know, we only talkabout it when we have to kind of
thing, because we're taking ourcues from them, when it's
(23:59):
probably more like we're sooverwhelmed with our own grief
that we may not be as observantor as empathetic at that point
because we're we're hurtourselves.
Yeah, so if we can helpchildren have something where
(24:20):
they can learn the skillswithout it being quite right
there to them, you know, like,like, joy isn't as a fictional
character, but I have to tellyou, a friend of mine gave a
book to a little boy, uh, thathad just lost his grandmother
and he's reading in church andhe comes to her after church and
(24:41):
he says so how do you know joy?
so the character is relatable,so they have to be authentic and
relatable.
But you watch her just gothrough her journey and it's she
knows at the end of the bookshe's not done grieving.
But she realizes something hergrief is tied to her con, her
(25:06):
love for her father.
She loves her dad.
She will always be grieving.
There will always be, never willmoments you know that she
wished he could be there for um.
You know that she wished hecould be there for um, but she
says the sorrow is fading, notbecause of time, because of how
she's processed that's goodbecause, because she, she was
(25:31):
given a journal by her.
well, this is, this is what Iproduced, but she's given a
journal by her cousin april, andher cousin April said hey, joy,
I'm going to give you thisjournal so you can write all the
good memories of all the thingsthat people are talking about
your dad when we go to thefuneral.
Which was brilliant, it wasinsightful, it was like, yes,
(25:53):
because children are so afraidthat they're going to forget
their loved one, that they'regoing to forget.
They so afraid that they'regoing to forget their loved one,
that they're going to forget,they're not going to know their
voice anymore, that they're notgoing to, you know, recognize
them in pictures and things likethat.
So these are things that wehave to think about how can we
(26:14):
preserve their loved one'smemories but also, taking cues
from them, what they need?
So joy happened to startrecording those things that
people would say, and then shefound that was an outlet for her
to write about her dad andrecord her memories so she does
(26:38):
not forget him.
And so now she doesn't justhave a sad book, she has all the
good things, all the wonderfulthings that she can carry with
her um, not only in the book,but in her heart, yeah, and and
heal.
And now she can embrace hername, which her dad gave her for
(27:01):
a reason.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I remember hearing one time this illustration of
grief is very much like this.
They say like a box I don'tknow if they say like a box of
flowers or just a box, closedbox that you carry around with
you all the time and you don'treally address until people ask
you about it.
And as they know your story,does that seem like a fair?
So you're carrying around thegrief and people say, hey, what
(27:25):
do you got there?
Oh, let me tell you about it Toyour point.
Kind of these highlightmemories of positive things that
they do remember about theperson that they lost.
Would that be a fair way toexpress that?
Or how would you describe that?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Would that be a fair way to express that or how would
you describe that?
I have a coffee cup and I thinkthis is brilliant.
I mean, I didn't do it, itwasn't my idea, but when I saw
it I said brilliant, it was acoffee cup.
Now, what can you pour in acoffee cup?
Can you pour sorrow?
Yes.
Can you pour joy?
Can your coffee cup hold both?
Yes.
(28:03):
So here's the bridge betweensorrow and joy is love.
So I I have a picture in my headand I put it on my social media
.
It's basically got a footbridge.
You know has two points rightover here.
Here's joy, here sorrow.
When we are in grief, it'sbecause of our love for that
person.
We miss them.
We love them.
Okay, when we are rejoicing,like wow, you're doing a podcast
(28:29):
, Sam, you know that's becausewe love Sam.
You know we're rejoicing so wecan have both in our hearts at
the same time.
Yeah.
And that connection is our love.
Right right.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
So it's not either or Was that a time thing to
understand?
Because I could almost imagine,at least when I think about
losses that I personally haveexperienced.
There's these real deep momentsof sorrow, and if I'm there
then it's impossible for me toexperience joy at the same time
(29:08):
or experience happiness orcontentment when I'm
experiencing sorrow.
But I think to the point thatyou're making.
I think with time we start torealize that I can try to access
both of those at the same timewhen needed, Because I think the
sorrow provides the memory ofman that was a tough loss.
(29:30):
And then there's thegratefulness is the other word I
was looking for, and thegratefulness for well, you know,
the time that we did havetogether.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
I appreciated, and now I can appreciate that in
other people that are around me,and that makes me grateful, but
I still feel sad, like sure, Imean, I don't think it's a
trade-off, I don't think we haveto give one up for the other,
you know, but can we hold bothof them in our hearts?
Yeah, absolutely.
So I do think that sometimes we, um, we miss the fact that a
(30:06):
joke or a funny story reallydoes help people who've lost
loved ones.
I mean, we all think we have tobe all stoic and you know, you
know all respectful or whatever,but the people who really knew
your loved one are gonna havethose stories and that and that
those are their memories yeah um, and so it's.
(30:28):
It's part of that sharing umyour heart with another person
in the community.
So I I do believe that we'revery good at sympathy.
We're not really great aboutempathy.
So I tell it in the book thestory of Bella, the best friend
(30:51):
of Joy, who just wants things togo back to normal.
You know, I know you lost yourdad.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry to go backto normal.
You know, I know you lost yourdad.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but Ijust want to be able to ride
bikes with you and go to thebutterfly garden and do all
these other things, you know,with you.
I miss you.
You know, that's basically whatshe's trying to get across to
(31:11):
joy, but joy keeps pushing heraway because part of that is
envy and part of that is joy.
I mean, bella still has a dad.
Mm, hmm, yeah.
So, so.
But Joy's very wise mom saysBella, let's talk you, I know
what you want to do, I know youwant your friend back.
(31:32):
I understand, but right now Joyneeds just somebody to sit with
her, listen to her, do nothingwith her, just be with her.
Yeah, just be present.
And so that's another lessonthat I really hope children can
learn.
Yeah.
Is that they don't have to fixit.
(31:53):
Can we fix it?
Can we fix our children's grief?
Can we?
fix it?
Can we fix our children's grief?
All we can do is listen and beavailable and be present and you
know and try to support.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's interesting because I
think when we most people'sattempts at being empathetic is
saying the right thing, and Ithink the point that we're
making here is, no, sometimesthere are no words to say, it's
just be there.
Just be there, and they feelthat presence more than words
(32:30):
that may not make sense at thetime or that aren't helpful.
Really, presence is verypowerful.
You mentioned earlier that wedon't often allow kids to grieve
and if they don't grieve, thenthey kind of carry that over
into their young adulthood.
So, for those who are listening, my audience is about 22 to 44
(32:55):
around there.
So young adults or even olderadults that never really dealt
with their grief, you know whatare some ways, I guess, in which
grief manifests itself in, youknow, young adults, just adults
in general.
What does it look like?
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Well, it's definitely going to affect their identity,
and we know, especially youknow, as teens or young adults,
you, you know, when it doesaffect your identity, it can
also put you in the category ofrisky behavior, mm-hmm.
So so I'm gonna use an example.
My son was 12.
(33:32):
He's having panic attacks.
I didn't know it, hmm, and inhis mind he thought he was going
to die, just like his dad.
Suddenly.
Okay.
So if you carry that idea,those thoughts because your
parents or your loved onesaround you don't know what's
(33:54):
going on, that can lead intoriskier behaviors.
Yeah.
Because you're just trying tofind something that's going to
make you feel better mm-hmm so,you know, I think it can go into
that, I think you can.
It affects them spiritually forsure, because our, our parent,
(34:17):
our father represent, you know,and God, that relationship is
fatherly.
So if there's no reconciliationfrom losing that earthly father
, that's going to impact yourheavenly father relationship.
(34:39):
I also think behavior outbursts.
Like I said, I was on dancefloor, didn't know what was
happening, I was getting alittle frustrated and then
boo-hoo, it was bad.
And poor Arnold, he didn't knowwhat to do with me because he
wasn't my usual teacher.
But yeah, we don't know whenthose moments or triggers are
(35:01):
going to happen.
You know, kids get in troubleand all of a sudden we're like
what happened, and people whohave not had grief or been
attuned to what that kid isgoing through may look at that
as just oh, that was just a baddecision, bad action, Whereas
there might be something more toit than that.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Yeah, so there's withdrawal, avoidance,
risk-taking behaviors yeah, andthere's that, you're right.
There's that misunderstandingof when they are going through
something and behaving in waysthat don't really make sense
from their typical behavior.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
You know it's unaddressed grief or other
problems you know, know, andthey may not even know why
they're doing it exactly,exactly, yeah so you know,
they're still processing.
So finally, when my son was 17,he came and told me I was
having panic attacks.
I'm like really, I didn't knowbecause, because how, how I
(35:58):
would have responded at thatpoint if I had that piece of
information, would have beendifferent.
Yeah yeah, but I just, you know,that's why I always kind of
bring that up, because it'ssomething that we're not always
self-aware yeah, that panicattacks and grief go hand in
hand.
And then, when you have momentswhere you feel out of control,
(36:22):
all of a sudden you got it, andso how can we deal with the
anxiety?
How can we teach our childreneven emotional self-regulation?
You know, when you get angry,when you get really frustrated,
hey, stop breathe.
You know, allow that oxygen toget to your brain.
(36:42):
You know, allow that oxygen toget to your brain so you can
make a better decision than justtaking a train and throwing it
across the room.
Yeah yeah, so these are waysthat I think you know impact
children.
And then we have, like mydaughter she suffered with
depression prior to losing herdad, but yeah so we had to kind
(37:07):
of be real aware of how hisdeath was impacting her.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
Yeah, yeah, and with teenagers and young adults, when
they see their parentssuffering, they often don't
share because they don't want toadd more to the parents' plate,
you know.
And so they're there wrestlingwith it themselves, feeling not
isolated but lonely, orwrestling through those things
(37:34):
themselves until the parenteither comes to an understanding
of their own grief and then isable to share with their
children, or, if they're justthere present with them.
But yeah, oftentimes I do see,especially with the oldest one,
like the oldest one feels likethis burden, okay, I have to be
there for my younger siblingsand then I don't want to burden
my mom or dad with this, and soon.
So there's a lot going on,right, yeah, so I can definitely
(37:59):
see all that.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
It is definitely more complex so I can definitely see
all that.
It is definitely more complexum but it's a universal
experience.
Yeah, yeah, so okay.
So how did?
How did me losing babies, youknow, that promise of you know,
you know, having another son ordaughter, um, you know, set me
up for maybe the next loss?
(38:21):
Well, because I came to termswith it and because my
relationship still was solidwith the Lord and and with my
family, um, I had that supportthat helped.
I mean, I still had a differentexperience to go through, still
had to deal with all the grief,but at least I had some
(38:43):
background to understand what Iwas feeling and what I was going
through with children and andteenagers that have never had
that exposure.
They don't yeah so we have to,um, we have to be their voice.
Yeah, you know we have to sharethese stories and, you know,
(39:04):
have these discussions.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Yeah, I agree.
I agree, you know, as believers, you know our experience of
grief is similar to anyone's,but it's how we respond that may
be different to how others mayrespond.
You know some, maybenon-believers, and maybe even
some believers do this as well,but mostly non-believers where
they turn to either vices orother addictions or things like
(39:28):
that.
But for us, as believers, whatrole does faith play in
processing loss andrediscovering joy, which are two
very hard things to you know,put together in the same
sentence, right, loss and joy?
Um, but yeah, can you sharewith us a little bit about what
that was like to be comforted bygod's word?
Speaker 2 (39:49):
yeah, I mean we've got psalm uh 34, 18, which says
the lord is close to thebrokenhearted and saves those
who are crushed in spirit.
That tells me he's got aspecial place in his heart for
me, you know, becausebrokenhearted.
Okay, so he's not overlookingme.
He's not telling me okay, getin line, move on.
(40:11):
He's saying I'm here tominister to you.
He also says do not fear, for Iam with you.
Do not be dismayed, for I'myour God.
I will strengthen you and helpyou.
I will uphold you with myrighteous right hand.
Isaiah 41 10.
May the God of hope fill youwith all joy and peace, as you
(40:32):
trust in him.
Okay, there's no other where toget hope Then from him when you
are experiencing suchdevastating loss.
There just isn't.
I mean, you can try a lot ofthings, but all you're doing is
you're just kind of spinningyour wheels until you finally
(40:53):
wear yourself out long enough tolisten to God and say, okay, I
got it.
And then you know we have thehope in Revelations 21.
21 4.
He will wipe away every tearfrom their eyes.
There will be no more death ormourning, or crying or pain, for
the old order of things haspassed away.
(41:14):
Revelations 21 4.
So we have this hope that, okay, what we're feeling now is not
never ending.
We, we are going to experiencejoy, I mean when we are with our
loved ones, with in heaven.
That's amazing.
I mean after jesus christ wentdown and got the keys with the
(41:36):
keys, how the hell and he wentand loosed the, the bosom of
abraham, and all you know, allthe people there, like king
david, and you know all thepeople that could not be quote
saved until jesus came back.
But they had, you know, theylistened to the message, they
were waiting for him.
They're like, we're ready let'sgo.
(42:00):
But uh, you know, same thing.
I had a friend, you know, earlyon when I lost these babies and
, um, you know, I was feelingkind of sad.
So I was talking to her andshe's like you, lucky duck, and
I went what she goes.
You have four heavenly depositsin heaven already, you know, to
(42:20):
your name.
They're waiting for you and I'mlike I never thought of it that
way, but isn't that what webelieve?
Speaker 1 (42:27):
yeah, I love, uh, I love how you mentioned how your
test becomes your testimony toshare with others and in one of
your responses, um and this isactually one of my favorite
passages as well that you listedsecond corinthians 3 to 5, that
praise be to the God and Fatherof the Lord Jesus Christ, the
Father of compassion, the God ofall comfort, who comforts us in
(42:47):
all our troubles, so that wecan comfort those in any trouble
with the comfort we ourselvesreceive from God.
This is actually one of theverses that led me to pursue
counseling the pain that wasexperienced and understanding
that, and trying to be there forother people.
I think God used this verse tospeak to me regarding that, and
it sounds like it's the samehere for you as well.
Speaker 2 (43:08):
And I appreciate that it's part of the healing
process, I think.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Yeah, to be able to minister to others.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
To be able to minister to others.
Yeah, because it's like sayingtake this pain, god, your
redemptive God, you can redeemthis pain and make it work and
benefit and help others.
That's our, that's his plan,that's that's I mean.
If we have no otherunderstanding other than pain,
(43:37):
usually there is a purposesomewhere.
Yeah.
But if we give it to him, hecan redeem it and he can use it
to help others.
That's what it's all about.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
Yeah, I agree.
I agree, Dr Woodbridge.
This has been a greatconversation.
You know, it kind of leaves ushere at the end of someone
listening someone experiencingsome sort of pain, some sort of
loss, is grieving something,someone right now.
What would you share with themas a piece of advice, some steps
(44:10):
to take, as they're currentlygrieving a loss?
Speaker 2 (44:16):
First of all, I want to acknowledge your pain because
it is real and your pain comesfrom the deep love that you had
for this person and there is noreplacement for this person.
Um, and there is no easy exitoff of the grief process process
(44:41):
.
You will have to go throughthis process.
How you make meaning out of theprocess is really up to you,
but I would encourage you, seekthe Father's heart, ask him the
question, tell him I am angry, Ineed, I don't want to be angry
(45:06):
with you, lord, but right nowI'm angry because nothing makes
sense.
So please renew my mind, renewmy heart, help me get to a place
of healing so that maybe theyare a parent, then they can be
more available to help theirchildren, or maybe they are a
(45:28):
friend and somebody is goingthrough cancer, so that they can
use their pain and know thatthey can heal from it.
You got to heal before youreveal and once you have an
understanding of that, you canbe a better human being or
(45:50):
person in life, because you youhave a better understanding what
joy is all about.
I don't think you really trulyunderstand joy without knowing
sorrow.
Yeah, I agree.
My favorite children's book isHinds Feet on High Places by
Hannah Hunard, and the GreatShepherd gives Much Afraid the
(46:11):
main character, two companionssorrow and suffering to help her
get to the high places.
Because she's crippled, she'sgot a crooked mouth.
You know she needs help to beable to go to the high places
because she's crippled, she'sgot a crooked mouth.
She, you know she needs help tobe able to go to the high
places.
And when she finally embracesthe sorrow and the suffering,
(46:32):
they get her to the high places.
And then the lord changes hername from much afraid to grace
and glory beautiful.
Beautiful story.
Get the children's version.
It's very, very powerful.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome.
Thank you, dr Woodbridge.
I really appreciate your timeand sharing your story and also
giving some great insights hereon grief, and I know it's going
to be a blessing.
I actually have a couple ofpeople in mind who are going
through right now a season ofdeep, deep, painful grief and
(47:09):
they listen to the podcast, sohopefully this is a blessing.
But, yeah, thank you for yourtime, hope we can do some other
time, some time.
Speaker 2 (47:18):
Absolutely, I love it .
I love it.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Thank you so much, Dr Woodbridge.
You have a good evening, okay.
Speaker 2 (47:25):
All right, thank you.
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