December 10, 2025 • 46 mins
Send Me Questions on Attachment
Fear knows how to sound reasonable. It hides inside “what if” spirals, budget math that never adds up, and prayers that feel stuck on repeat. We sat down with prophetic healing coach Heather O’Brien to ask a bold question: what if fear isn’t the root at all, but a symptom pointing to what we believe about God’s character and our worth?
We trace the crucial difference between facts and Truth, where painful experiences are honored without letting their lies set our future. Heather shares how people often carry faith in their fear—trusting isolation, control, or worst-case planning more than God’s steady love. We explore why perfect love expels fear, why the opposite of fear is love rather than effort, and how to move trust from outcomes to the process of walking with God. Along the way, Heather unpacks a practical “spiritual warfare kit” for panic moments and shows how daily Scripture declarations can retrain our minds, grounding us in peace when emotions surge.
Heather’s own story moves from years of hypervigilance and depression to freedom through hearing God’s voice, forgiving deeply, and naming the specific fears beneath the surface—rejection, abandonment, punishment, the unknown. We challenge common spiritual shortcuts, including overusing “thorn in the flesh” to justify staying stuck, and offer a gentler, truer path: let God reveal the root, invite wise help, and break agreement with fear by name. If you’ve ever wondered why anxiety returns after heartfelt prayers, this conversation gives you language, tools, and hope to keep going.
If this resonates, share it with a friend who needs courage today, subscribe for more soul-strengthening episodes, and leave a review so we know what to explore next.
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MY HOPE FOR YOU
I hope these episodes bring you closer to Christ and encourage you in your walk with Him. Meditating on Scripture, Being committed to prayer, and Seeking Christian community are all essential to helping us learn more of who He is and who He made us to be.
ABOUT ME 👇
I have been a Christ-follower for the last 20+ years of my life, and have seen the Lord's grace, strength, and faithfulness through it all. He led me to pursue a degree in higher education and has given me a gift for the field of counseling.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:05):
Alright everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
I'm so thankful that you'rehere.
As usual, always trying to findnew topics to discuss with you
about your relationship with Godand your relationship with
others.
And today we're going to talkabout how to distinguish fear
from our relationship with God.
And my guest, Heather O'Brien,is going to be discussing this.
(00:29):
Welcome to the show, Heather.
SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
Hey, yeah, I'm so excited to be here.
I'm looking forward to thisconversation.
I know it's going to be so good.
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
It's going to be great.
We had a conversation earlier.
It flowed so well.
And I think that this one isgoing to be one of those that's
going to be super beneficial forthose who are listening.
So, guys, as always, thank youfor your support.
Tune into the podcast.
I'm on iTunes and Apple Podcastsand Spotify.
And also leave a review.
(00:56):
The reviews are so helpful.
It kind of gives me a gauge ofhow you guys are tuning into the
podcast.
And also lets me know just kindof what topics are of interest
to you.
I have had some of those and Ialways enjoy bringing new topics
to you guys.
So thank you again for beinghere.
And uh Miss Heather O'Brien, soglad that you're here with us.
(01:18):
Again, this seems to be yourarea of expertise as you talk
about fear in our relationshipwith God.
But before we jump into ourtopic, I usually just like to
give you the floor and just uhshare a little bit about who you
are and and what you do and umand anything else that you'd
like to share.
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
Yeah, so I well, I don't have all the the letters
behind my name like you do.
In fact, I have no lettersbehind my name.
But I I like to say that I'm aI'm a licensed minister, I'm not
a licensed therapist, so I Ilike to make that clear.
I don't have all of the bookknowledge, I have the spiritual
knowledge.
And I think both are handy.
Yeah, both come in handy.
(01:56):
I I was an accountant before Istarted doing all the healing
business.
And um, so I I would do people'sbooks and you know, all that.
And so I I know what it's liketo work a full-time job and have
kids and still need to gethealing done, still need to do
all the stuff and feel like thebusy life.
And um, so I guess I come withthat side of it, knowing, you
(02:19):
know, there's differentperspectives from all of this.
Like some people are like, howdo you how do you do all these
things and have all and I havethree kids, I've been married
for 23 years.
And I'm like, well, um, God'sgiven me a lot to steward, yes,
but also he showed me how tosteward it.
So I can't wait to help andshare, share all those tips and
tricks with you.
SPEAKER_03 (02:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:37):
Yeah, I'm a prophetic healing coach, is what
I like to call myself now.
I like to hear God's voice inorder to help people heal,
specifically Christians.
And I hear God's voice in a lotof different ways, so don't get
freaked out.
It's not like some boomingvoice, but I hear God's voice in
the scriptures, I hear God'svoice in prayer.
I I have, you know, all thedifferent ways, but he's just so
(02:59):
good that he wants us healed andhe will speak to his children to
to make it happen, to see itcome to fruition.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Absolutely, absolutely, you know, and and
I'm curious, Heather, you yousaid you used to do accounting.
What was that transition likefor you?
Because I know that's that'squite a shift.
SPEAKER_01 (03:17):
It is a shift.
So uh I when I had babies, all Iwanted to do was be their mom.
And I did that, you know, for atleast a year or more for each of
them.
And the last one, I wasthinking, okay, I'm gonna have
this baby, I'm gonna send theother two off to school.
And I'm like, I was just soexcited.
(03:38):
I was gonna like not work atleast for a I was thinking a you
know, a year, but God had otherplans.
And my uh middle child was insecond grade there, and he
wasn't doing really well, and hewas like, He's needing me to be
homeschooled, basically.
And I had no desire to do that,like 0.0 in the negative desire.
(04:00):
Even my mom recalls me saying,I'll never homeschool him.
That's weird.
And I'm like, uh, okay, got yousay what you'll do, and God will
laugh at you.
But he started putting thatdesire in me to homeschool him.
And so I started, you know, at aa lot when I had my newborn, I
was home learning how tohomeschool.
(04:21):
And so now I'm in year eight ofhomeschooling and doing things
different.
So, and it's not like God throwsaway everything that we learned
before.
I I love that that I learned howto do accounting and now I run a
business, and so it it builds onit, and also I have the teacher
uh calling in my life, yeah,spiritual side of it, and it
(04:44):
I've never got formally trainedon how to teach people, but that
teacher side of me is in there,and I'm able to figure out how
to do it with the homeschooling,and so it all blends together,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
That's amazing, yeah, absolutely.
I love that, yeah.
And and that's kind of this thesame thing of you know being
sensitive to the Lord's callingis that sometimes so out of left
field, you're like, is thisreal?
Is this actually happening?
And you go through it, andagain, the Lord provides along
the way.
So I love that.
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah.
Well, Heather, we're gonna betalking about how to remove fear
(05:15):
from our relationship with God.
Um, on this podcast, I talk alot about attachment styles, and
this topic was of interest to mebecause fear is one of those
driving forces for someone who'sanxiously attached.
Um, the fear is will my needsever be met?
The fear can be, you know, isGod gonna hurt me?
Are people in the church gonnahurt me?
(05:36):
There could be a bunch ofdifferent fears, and I know this
is one of the topics that youenjoy talking about as well.
And you talk about fear beingmore of a symptom, not the root.
Can you elaborate a little bitabout that and maybe even share
what you see fear as how thatcontributes to a relationship
with God?
SPEAKER_01 (05:54):
Well, yeah, so fear actually, okay, so it could be a
symptom because a lot of timeswhat we're thinking and feeling,
we love to go by our feelings inthis world.
I mean, how many people arelike, well, I felt this, so I
did this, and I'm like, that'snot biblical.
But our feelings are so powerfuland they tell us what to do
(06:16):
sometimes.
If we're not being led by thespirit, we're gonna be led by
something.
And our feelings are so loud andthey seem so reasonable, and
fear is a feeling.
It's it's it well, it can be, itcan be a feeling, it can be a
thought, it can be uh a naturalGod-given thing.
You know, a bear's coming at youand you you need to run, okay.
(06:37):
That fear and that feeling, theygo hand in hand and they're
telling you what to do, and youshould obey when it's a bear
running at you.
But uh, it's a symptom.
Like fear is a symptom of, hey,there's a bear coming, so I'm
gonna run.
And so it's a it's telling uswhat to do.
But there's other places in ourlife where fear is not, it's not
just a natural thing that weneed to follow.
(06:58):
And I say it's a symptom becausea lot of times we feel anxious,
we feel anxiety, we feelworried, uh, whatever word you
want to put it in there.
And all that to say it's asymptom of what you're thinking
or maybe what you've experiencedin the past.
Because our experiences feellike truth to us.
(07:19):
They key word here, feel theyaren't our truth, they feel like
truth.
Um, so we could go in a lot ofdifferent directions with this.
Ask me more questions.
SPEAKER_00 (07:29):
Yeah, no, I think that's a good point.
So feeling like truth versus itactually being true.
So, for example, I guess the onethat comes to mind is um my
parents were not attentive to myneeds, right?
Uh, my parents mistreated me,could be an example.
So that is true that did happen.
(07:49):
So, how would you distinguishthat from okay, that do you uh
affirm that they did experiencethat, but then work with the
feeling?
Like how would you navigate thatprocess?
SPEAKER_01 (08:00):
Okay, this is a great question.
I love this.
Here's what I do.
I the word truth, okay, and thisisn't just semantics for me.
Uh, it might sound like it for aminute, but just stick with me
here.
The word truth to me means theword Jesus because Jesus said, I
am the truth.
Okay, I'm the way, the truth,and the life.
And so if it's not in the Bible,it's not truth.
(08:23):
If it's not Jesus, it's nottruth, but it can be a fact.
It's a fact that you experiencedthat.
You did experience that.
That's that that's the fact.
SPEAKER_03 (08:33):
Interesting.
Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
Okay, and then but the but are there any lies that
you believe in that?
Did any lies seep in that, well,they didn't take care of me, so
no one will.
See how that's yes, it's itseems reasonable, but it's not
true.
And sometimes we have thesethoughts that go on in our mind
that says, This is a reasonablethought.
(08:55):
That if I just stay at home,I'll be safe.
If I don't go out there, or if Istay in my room, I'll be safe.
If I stay isolated, I'll be safefrom the people that are in the
rest of the house, whatever itis.
And so it's it seems reasonable,but it's not the truth.
Because the truth will set youfree.
But right now you're isolatedand alone and full of fear.
(09:16):
You see what I'm saying?
So it's not necessarily it's notreally semantics here, it's
really understanding.
Okay, that if the truth will setme free, why am I still bound?
And if I'm still if I'm bound,then this isn't truth.
This is what I've experienced,and it's a fact.
And so I hope that helps.
It's um, it's really helped mein figuring out how to help
(09:37):
people and use all the rightwords.
SPEAKER_00 (09:39):
No, no, that I think that makes sense.
So fact versus truth, and whenyou say truth, you're talking
about Jesus as the truth.
Jesus says, I am the way, thetruth, and the life, no one
comes to the Father but throughme, right?
So in that, I think there's thispiece of well, the way that we
find God is through throughChrist, right?
He's the truth.
That's how we find him.
(09:59):
Um and for people who haveexperienced something negative
in their life, what's what'ssomething that creates the most
fear for Christians?
Uh, do you think?
Um, what what are some of thethings that you hear with your
clients or people that you workwith that they're afraid of in
their relationship with God thatthey're believing about
themselves?
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
In the relationship with God, I would say they're
afraid to trust him.
It's probably at the top of thelist, afraid to trust him.
And uh there's also this fear ofwell, okay, there's so many
fears.
Let me just like throw somespaghetti on the wall here.
You've got fear of man, you'vegot fear of feeling powerless,
(10:44):
fear of being rejected, fear ofuh you name it, and there's this
this great scripture in firstJohn chapter four, and you might
know part of it, but I wonder ifif you've heard all of well, you
know it, but you know, thelisteners, like it says perfect
love expels all fear.
So we're talking about fearhere.
And I would say, so if that'strue, if perfect love expels all
(11:07):
fear, then the opposite of fearis love, not faith.
And so in this world in the USA,we keep we've got this phrase
going on, faith over fear.
And it sounds good, but I'mlike, that doesn't even make
sense.
Because here's what I'm dealingwith.
I'm dealing with the fact thatI'm I'm working with clients day
(11:30):
after day who have faith intheir fear.
Faith has protected their faithin fear, has protected them,
their fear has protected them.
In other words, I was I wastalking to you about isolation,
like they fear what mighthappen.
So there's the fear of theunknown, there's the fear of uh,
I don't know what's fixing tohappen.
(11:51):
And and all of these fears, theyfeel like protection.
They're keeping them safe.
So they have faith in theirfear.
And so if you have faith in yourfear, then you don't have faith
in God, and God is love, andperfect love expels all fear.
So it's like this you can't everget to the freedom part if you
don't have faith in God, andthen you have all of the love
(12:14):
that will expel all fear.
Uh I like to go ahead, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
No, no, yeah, no, it's is it only in their
relationship with God then?
So, what would that look likewhen you're talking about having
faith in God?
Because I think most people,because we have a different
version, I guess, in our minds,and you you did a great job
earlier about describing what itcould look like, but what would
it look like to have faith inGod?
SPEAKER_01 (12:40):
So you want trust, you want to trust God.
You want, and some people say,I've I've done it the best that
I could.
I'm trusting him the best that Icould, but also I have um I have
several people that say theyfeel like they're missing the
mark.
They're that they can't trusthim for his fine for their
finances, and so they're wrappedup in fear and anxiousness,
anxiety and worries.
(13:01):
Let's just go with the financialexample.
I think a lot of people couldresonate with that.
So they're not trusting God,they don't have faith in God to
meet their financial needs.
Maybe they've never experiencedit happening.
And and I I could raise my handfor that.
I remember a time when I wasfull of anxiety, so the world
was dizzy, panic attacks,wondering about this financial
bill that was not gonna getpaid.
(13:23):
And I'm the accountant here, andI'm like, I can't figure this
out.
Like, it's not the math, doesn'tadd up.
There's no enough money in thebank, God.
And he's like, But can you trustme?
And I'm like, how can I trustyou?
You've never done this for mebefore.
And sometimes we think aboutthat in in the world, like we
can't we can't trust peoplebecause they we've never
experienced them working out.
(13:43):
The relationships don't usuallywork out, so we don't trust all
men are X, Y, Z.
We we can't trust all men, likewe just put them in this whole
bucket and instead of this oneparticular circumstance where it
didn't work out.
And and my point is we can't wemight not can trust God for our
finances because he's never doneit before, but what can we trust
(14:03):
him for?
Did the sun rise today?
Did did the moon come out whenit was supposed to?
Can we trust him that he's gotall of the stars hanging and
perfectly you know working out?
Can we trust that we are gonnahave our next next breath?
I mean, we're not guaranteed it,but somehow it just keeps
coming.
(14:25):
I'm giving basic examples here,but we can trust him for things
that we haven't maybe evenconsidered.
SPEAKER_00 (14:31):
Yeah, yeah.
As you were sharing that, I'msorry, the no, no, go ahead, go
ahead.
Yeah, as you were sharing that,I started thinking about
oftentimes I think we we trustGod for the outcome and not for
the process.
Oh, right.
So we're waiting for the outcometo happen.
And because we're waiting for itto happen, we we we get anxious
(14:52):
about that.
But the process, and I thinkkind of maybe what you're
alluding to is we're trustingGod's character, yeah who he
says that he is, he says I'mfaithful, he says I'm loving, he
says I'm gonna care for you.
So we're trusting in that truth,going back to your original
point, that truth of who he isas a person, as a father to us.
SPEAKER_03 (15:11):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00 (15:11):
And the outcome may not be what we want because I
think that's what people alsothink when they're saying, Well,
what I prayed for didn't happen.
Maybe it's not what you needed.
I don't know.
You know, it could be somethinglike that, right?
So I think sometimes that ideaof trust is people think that if
they had if they're praying forsomething and that outcome
doesn't happen, they start tolose their trust in God in a
(15:34):
sense.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (15:35):
Yeah.
That's a perfect example.
No, that's a perfect example.
So when um uh there's thisthere's this thing that to trust
God, uh, I keep thinking of thescripture, trust and obey, for
it's the only way.
So to trust God and obey meansthere's a formula here.
It says he'll keep in perfectpeace those who trust him and
(15:56):
fix their thoughts on him.
And so if you have anxiety andworry, then you haven't trusted
him and put your thoughts inhim, and you're like, okay, I
don't know how to trust him.
And I would like to help youwith that.
To trust him is a lot like yousaid, it's it's believing by
faith in something you can't do,only he can.
(16:16):
There's this faith element thatwe miss in all of this.
It's like we want to do stuff,we're like human doings instead
of human beings, right?
And we we want to do, do, do.
And the only thing he wants youto do is to love God and love
your neighbor as you loveyourself.
That's the only thing he'sasking of you to love you.
Love God, love your neighbor asyou love yourself.
And to trust him means if I dothose three things, he's gonna
(16:39):
come through.
And that doesn't even make sensebecause that seems too easy,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:44):
Right.
Or people, us as people, we'renot like that either.
You know, so going back to thataspect of sometimes we we miss
that, or because we fail onceand when in a while, we have the
inability to to trust Godbecause we base it off of our
experiences with each other.
But God is not us, He's not us.
SPEAKER_01 (17:00):
That's true.
Yeah, that's true.
Okay, so you just went there.
I want to go there for just asecond.
I was talking with this with aclient, uh, I think yesterday,
we were talking about trust.
And um, the person that sheneeded to get trust in, this is
a human, she couldn't figure outbecause you know, experience
says that it's not gonna workout if if we put our trust in
(17:21):
them.
They're not gonna show up,they're not gonna be reliable,
they're they're not gonna betrustworthy.
And I'm thinking about that, andI think about the word trust,
forgiveness and love, theyactually all go hand in hand.
Let me let me help you.
Let me let me connect the dotsbecause it doesn't seem like it
does, but it does.
Okay.
Uh forgiveness is me choosing toforgive you.
(17:42):
I don't go by my feelings.
Now, I we we could talk aboutforgiveness for days, right?
But if I could just tell you thedefinition of forgiveness, it's
a choice.
It's not a feeling, it's it's achoice to do it.
Now you there's there's steps,right?
There's the process, it andthere's healing involved, but
forgiveness ultimately, bottomline, is a choice.
(18:03):
No one's gonna make you do it,no one can make you do it,
honestly.
And I would I I would take thethat the same way with love.
So God has given us this freewill to choose him or not choose
him, to love and obey him ornot.
He says there's blessings if youdo, if you if you do what he
says and you follow his ways,there's blessings.
(18:25):
It's full-on free will.
You get to choose.
And it's always for your good.
He's always got good thingsplanned for you, but it's always
your choice.
So it's your choice to forgive,it's your choice to love, and
then you go to trust.
And in the human world, whatokay, I'm spiritual here.
I my husband's like, you makeeverything too spiritual.
I'm like, no, everything'sspiritual.
(18:47):
But when it comes to trust, thehuman world, everyone wants to
say trust is earned.
And I want to say in thespiritual world, trust is a
choice.
Okay, I know no one likes that.
Everyone's like, turning me offright now.
Trust is a choice.
And so, yes, experience says Ican't trust them, but okay, let
(19:09):
me just let me just take thisone little little level deeper.
What if your trust isn't in thehuman, but it's in God using
that human for your good?
Okay, let me give you anexample.
We love stories, right?
Okay, so my last baby, I was uh,I did not want to have an
epidural because the first two,it quote unquote didn't work.
(19:31):
It was just a mess.
And I was like, I just don'twant to do that.
Let's just not do that.
But before I went into labor, Iprayed and I prayed this prayer.
God, I don't want to have theepidural.
This is my I'm telling you whatI want.
But I said, but I know you knowwhat's best, and whatever the
doctors and nurses and themedical people want me to do,
I'm gonna do and I'm gonna trustthat they are being led by you.
(19:54):
Okay, so I'm putting my trust inGod through them.
I'm gonna say, I don't, I don't,and I had the same.
Midwife for all my babies, okay.
All three.
Even this one that was fixed tocome out was was still in charge
of this one.
And the you know, she wasn'tgiving me the epidural, but she
was in charge of telling me Ineeded it.
All to say, um, the third babywas coming.
(20:15):
The pain was so bad, and I'm,you know, I'm toughen it out.
I don't mean that epidural.
I'm fine.
She she literally she came in,she checked me, and she left
running, physically running, togo get the the doctor guy who
does the epidurals who wasgetting in his car, literally
yanked him out of the car tobring him back to me.
And and I needed the epidural iswhat I want to say.
(20:38):
I didn't want it, but I neededit.
And she knew I needed it.
In fact, I I don't have anyproof behind this, but I think
that it saved my life.
I think that I was in so muchpain that it would have killed
me.
And I don't have any proof totell you that, but I feel like
that's what God revealed to melater that I put my trust in him
to use the medicalprofessionals.
And so my my trust wasn't in themedical stuff, my trust was in
(21:01):
God to use them appropriatelyfor my life, whether they were
serving God or not, it didn'teven matter.
I hope that messes with you alittle bit too.
I put my trust in God for thepeople around me, and I do that
regularly now.
I'm like, God knows what I need.
And so if you go to the doctor,you go to the XYZ, like, God, I
trust that you are gonna put ina desire in them to give me the
(21:23):
right medicine or the rightinformation or the right
whatever.
And so trust is a choice, butwho are you putting your trust
in?
Is it in people or in God?
Because God is trustworthy.
And go back to what you said aminute ago.
We put God, we put our trust inGod's character.
He says he's faithful andconsistent and trustworthy.
And so he is.
(21:44):
He can't not lie.
Yeah, I hope that helped.
SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
I no, that's good.
That was a really good example.
You know, when you when you saidthat, it started to remind me a
lot, because you said this realvery clearly.
You said, um, whatever it isthat you think I need,
communicate that to them, right?
So you didn't pray for aspecific outcome.
You didn't say, I don't want theepidural, please let lead them
(22:07):
in that direction.
And I think most people, whenwe're praying for those things,
we pray specifics.
I want this, I want to marrythis person, I want this outcome
for my school, I want this job,and so on.
But we don't pray through theprocess like you did, about
whatever you think I need,communicate that to them.
And it very much also remindedme of Abraham and Isaac, right?
(22:30):
I mean, the outcome did not lookgood, right?
Uh-huh.
Go sacrifice your son.
But Abraham trusted who God was.
And that's the whole thing.
He obeyed throughout theprocess, and when it got time to
sacrifice his son, God stoppedhim.
So I I think there, I thinkthat's that was very helpful to
understand that we pray for theprocess and for God to use
(22:53):
people to communicate to us.
And I think he does that quiteoften too.
SPEAKER_01 (22:56):
Yeah.
And all to the point of fear.
We're talking about fear.
And so there's so much anxietyabout, well, I don't want the
epidural.
I don't, yeah, or I want to paythis financial bill and I want
it paid today.
And there's so much anxiety andangst about it.
But what when we actually putour trust in God, we will have
(23:16):
perfect peace.
Let me go back to thatscripture.
He will keep in perfect peacethose who trust me and keep
their thoughts fixed on me.
So if your thoughts are fixed onanxiety and worry and I can't
ever make this work out, thisbill is not going to get paid,
what if all of those negativewhat ifs, you're not, then your
(23:38):
thoughts aren't fixed on him.
And you he can't keep you inperfect peace.
And then if you're not puttingyour trust in his character and
who he says he is, he says he'sprovider, he says he's healer,
he says he's faithful.
And so if he says all thosethings and you just, okay, God,
you said you said you got this.
So I'm gonna lay it down and I'mgonna think about something else
right now.
(23:58):
It's almost a choice.
Yeah, you see how I'm sayingthis is all your choice.
Because I can't tell you what tothink about.
I can't change your thoughts andrewire them for you.
You have to do it yourself, youhave to choose it.
SPEAKER_00 (24:10):
Yeah, and how hard is that, Heather, for when
you're working with clients?
Because I it's such a hardthing.
So, you know, in counseling, Isee the same thing where some
people they're very cognitive,meaning that if you can get them
to think the right things, itchanges their the way that they
act, the way that they behave,even the way that they
experience things.
For others, it's they experiencesomething and that affects their
thoughts.
(24:30):
So for them, I usually workwith, okay, let's kind of get
some self-regulation going, somecoping techniques to regulate
your body, and then we can startthinking clearly with your
clients.
Like, how is that like thebiggest challenge to just get
them to think differently aboutum their thoughts that they're
having?
SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
Yeah, so I've got both going on, just like you
just said.
Some are like, yep, I'm gonna,I'm gonna manage my thoughts,
and some are like, I don't knowhow.
And so there's a couple ofdifferent ways.
I love the the way that you saidwe deal with the body first.
I do that too.
And so I I use a spiritualwarfare kit.
I I have them make a spiritualwarfare kit, and it could be
(25:09):
like in a little pouch, uh,something that you could tote
with you.
And so inside of it, you wouldhave this little list that I
would give you to print out thatsays step one, um, turn on
worship music.
Step two, put the sucker in yourmouth.
So in the warfare kit, we mighthave something that's sour, like
a warhead.
SPEAKER_03 (25:30):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
And so you so step two, put the lemon warhead in
your mouth.
Sometimes when you're having thepanic attack and your your
thoughts are going crazy, youcan't think you can't think
straight.
So you're reading this.
Okay, I put the worship musicon, I got the warhead in my
mouth, and then take deepbreaths, right?
So we have we do have to dealwith the body before we can ever
do with the spiritual.
And there are spiritual prayersthat is gonna work, but first
(25:52):
you have to address the factthat you can't breathe.
Let's just get real.
You have to breathe before youcan pray the devil away.
And sometimes there is a devil,and we just need to pray.
But yes, we have to deal withall of the situation.
We're body, soul, and spirit,and we want to deal with all of
it together.
Um, and and yes, there's somepeople that it's harder to do
this.
(26:12):
So we we got the spiritualwarfare kit, but also I have
just basic checklists.
And I would say to you, what youdo in your time when you're not
spazzing out is really importantfor when you are spazzing out.
SPEAKER_00 (26:25):
Yep.
That's a great point.
SPEAKER_01 (26:26):
So if you have like this, I call it a love list.
Okay, so spiritual disciplinesneed to be done out of love, not
performance, not a check, it'snot a checklist just to say I've
accomplished it, but you gotthis love list of I'm gonna read
my Bible, worship, and praytoday, but also I'll add in some
declarations.
I'm gonna declare God's word,and I usually have something
(26:47):
specific.
So if I'm working with you and Iknow you're struggling with uh
fear, I might have with you.
So I'll even show you.
I don't know if you have my ifyou have a visual, but like I
have a phone screen that says ittalks about perfect love.
So God has not given me a spiritof fear, but of power, love, and
a sound mind.
It's on my phone screen.
So this is something like youcould have a sticky note, you
could have a um a timer come upon your phone regularly.
(27:11):
You're regularly declaring God'snot giving me a spirit of fear,
but of love, power, and a soundmind.
And so in your downtime,whenever you're not spazzing
out, you're saying that.
So when you are spazzing out, itjust flows out of you.
Yeah, that's so I think that'sreally important to um to it's
part of renewing your mind.
Romans 12, too.
(27:31):
You are supposed to renew yourmind, and in fact, you you are
in charge of it.
It let God renew your mind, butalso how are you letting him do
it?
It's not he's not just zappingyou, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:43):
We do want the God zap, but also he's like, Can you
read the word?
SPEAKER_02 (27:47):
Yeah, exactly.
Can you declare it?
SPEAKER_01 (27:50):
Can you pray a little bit?
So some of it's our our part,some of it's our part, right?
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Yeah, yeah.
No, and you made some greatpoints there.
One of them is there was some uha research article that I read
maybe a week or two ago, andbasically it talked about that
the things that we repeat toourselves, even if they're
untrue, we tend to believe.
So imagine to your point, you'rerepeating this truth in
scripture to yourself all thetime, that it starts to take
(28:15):
space in your mind, in yourheart, right?
And you know, the other pointthat you made that was also
excellent was it's not just whenthe fear comes, like this has to
be something that's part of yourday when you are calm and when
you're just having a cup ofcoffee, you're meditating on the
word.
Like it's in those moments thatkind of prepare you for when you
do have that anxious thought orwhen you when you do have that
(28:36):
fear, now you're ready becauseyou're already armed.
You've been practicing over andover.
And what I found clients doingis that they would wait until
that came and they would try toimplement it, and it doesn't
work because you're too over uhuh dysregulated.
SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
Uh-huh.
Yeah, it's too much.
And even like as you weretalking, I was thinking, even
having the spiritual warfare kitis preemptive.
unknown (28:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:57):
I have it, I know where it is, it's readily
available.
I'll go get it and it'll tell meexactly what to do when I can't
think straight.
Because I totally get that whenyou can't think straight, but
did you prepare it in advance?
And so inside of it, you mighthave the declarations, you might
have like some sticky notes, youmight have the um tactile things
(29:18):
to touch, feel, taste, see, butyou also might have the
scriptures that you can quotethat you can't think of right
offhand, but you've prepared itin the time when you're not
having anxiety.
SPEAKER_00 (29:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
No, that's great.
You know, Heather, I I'mcurious.
You know, you talk a little bitabout of maybe how you um heal
from fear, or and can you sharea little bit about that?
Because I know usually the theministries or the burdens that
we have for others stem fromsomething that we've experienced
ourselves.
(29:51):
Uh, can you share a little bitabout that?
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
Yeah, I I used to share, I used to say it so
plainly.
Oh, I had a trauma in my collegeage years and it just made me.
And then I would tell you allthe symptoms that it gave me.
But this year, God's asking meto kind of up the ante and tell
you a little bit more becausethe more you understand that I
don't have it all together,maybe you'll you'll think I have
something to offer.
(30:13):
I I my story is like it's Iwasn't hurt, no one actually
touched me.
I didn't go through a death or awar, no one died.
And the things that happened tome were emotional.
I had a brother that was uhdoing some things that he
shouldn't do.
He was getting into uh thingsthat like stealing and uh drugs
(30:34):
and going to prison.
And I was still living at home.
I was the good girl, you know, Iwas a good girl, not not doing
any.
I was in college doing allgetting all the grades and uh
planning to get married.
I was engaged, but not.
I was gonna wait a minute till Ifinished college.
And anyways, all that to say hehe made my environment feel so
(30:55):
unsafe.
So at night I would, you know, II would go to sleep and I would
wake up and my car would begone, or anything I left in my
car would be stolen, or somehowthey my life was just not safe.
And I might not be describing itall that well.
And my parents did the best thatthey could.
I love them.
And we we left Jesus, we went tochurch every Sunday.
So here's me sitting on the pewevery every Sunday and just
(31:18):
feeling traumatized by I don'tfeel safe in my own home, but
nothing's physically happy, so Ican't tell you my story because
you don't even like this,doesn't it?
And I've learned now, now I havewords to say, your trauma is not
defined by you know whathappened to you, but what it
what it's doing to you.
SPEAKER_03 (31:39):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_01 (31:40):
I I I wouldn't even tell you my story before.
So that's part of my story.
It and you know, the symptomswould be like I did get married,
I I hurried up and got marriedin two months, and I I still had
all my baggage.
I went to bed crying everynight.
I woke up in the middle of thenight just to throw up because
of the depression.
I couldn't go to bed withoutnoise.
(32:01):
I had to sleep with the TV, Ihad to double check the door
lock.
So I was living in fear andpanics.
I remember one time justfreaking out in the it was it
wasn't bedtime yet.
I was just hearing all thesenoises, and we live out in the
country, so there was youshouldn't be hearing no noises.
Like you we just don't hearstuff.
And if you hear and and it justwouldn't stop, and I and I'm
(32:22):
like in the corner, and then allof a sudden it comes to me, oh,
it's July 4th.
Oh, uh, okay, those arefireworks, but I didn't know,
and so the fear of the unknownwas overwhelming me.
Just it's just ridiculous.
I laugh, I can laugh at it nowbecause that's what fear did to
me.
But fear will regret the day itever messed with me.
I'm gonna tell you what, I gotmad at the devil.
(32:42):
I started learning how to hearGod's voice.
God, I started, well, okay, Ididn't tell you my whole story,
but I I went through depressionand I went through it for about
a decade.
And I stayed on depressionmedicines before I ever figured
out why I was sad.
SPEAKER_00 (32:53):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_01 (32:54):
The doctor just said, I think you need this.
And I was like, I think I dotoo.
SPEAKER_00 (32:58):
It's one of my biggest pet peeves.
SPEAKER_01 (33:00):
I never questioned it.
I didn't know you could questionthe doctor.
I didn't know.
I didn't, I'm like, yes, sir,just give me what I need.
And one day I came to myself andI was like, why am I on this
medicine?
And I know it was the HolySpirit prompting me, and I
started trying to figure outwhat what uh what what is wrong
with me because it doesn't makesense from what happened.
Maybe in your world it doesbecause you've got all of the
(33:23):
training and stuff, but I didn'thave all the training and what
happened to me, no one hurt me.
I wasn't abused physically.
I no one died, I didn't gothrough a war.
And so the the fact that I hadso much fear in my life didn't
make sense.
But I didn't feel safe, I didn'tfeel taken care of, I didn't
feel chosen.
Like my parents were taking careof him, not me, not the good
(33:44):
one.
And so I felt rejected.
There's fear of rejection thatwas huge in my life.
Fear of abandonment was there.
Unworthy, I'm not worthy ofbeing taken care of.
He needs all the help.
There's so all so you did.
SPEAKER_00 (33:56):
Did you feel a sense of shame for having those
feelings?
SPEAKER_01 (33:59):
Yeah.
Shame kept me quiet and shut up.
It wasn't until this year that Icould even tell you my
testimony.
Like, I don't want to hurtanyone.
I don't want to, you know, bad,and I'm not bad mouthing my
parents.
They did the best that theycould, they did the best that
they know how.
And that's all we ever do,right?
But it it now I can glorify Godand say, but look what God did.
SPEAKER_03 (34:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:19):
So now I'm saved, healed, and delivered.
And God has radically set mefree.
And and and it all happened bylearning how to hear his voice.
SPEAKER_03 (34:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:27):
His his voice, I started journaling.
I started hearing that I startedremembering my dreams at night.
And in the day, I'm like, God,what did that mean?
I didn't know God was talking tome through my dreams until I
started pursuing it.
And I'm like, oh, this is how Ihear God's voice.
I hear him in dreams, and hewould give me interpretations.
I got radically filled with theHoly Spirit.
(34:48):
And yeah, that that'll mess withyour your theology when you
didn't know what you didn'tknow.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:55):
I appreciate you sharing that, Heather.
Um, you know, there's there aresome listeners who have that
experience of um feeling theshame because they feel like
they didn't maybe experienceanything traumatic, but all of
those experiences do saysomething about um areas in our
lives that do need healing.
(35:17):
Now, there's two two usual casesthat happen.
So for some, you know, they cometo know the Lord or they have
some revelation of some sort andthey feel fully healed.
There's others who get there,who get to know the Lord, are
saved, and they actually feel alot of shame because why ain't
why am I not feeling healed yet?
Why am I still struggling withthis?
(35:37):
So for them, it's alsocommunicating that could this be
one of those lifelong thingswhere you're consistently
trusting the Lord to workthrough that process, right?
Kind of the the whole idea isthe the Paul situation, right?
His the thorn in his side wasn'tremoved, right?
It wasn't removed.
So what is that?
Is that is this one of thosethings that's going to be
ongoing?
(35:57):
You know, what are your thoughtson that?
Because there was an expressionthere.
SPEAKER_01 (36:01):
You you might have triggered me a little bit.
I I have I have way too manypeople who use the Paul excuse.
Oh, it's just a thorn in myside.
Uh I'll I'm like, are you Paul?
I just don't know.
I just don't know about thatbecause I'm not.
Okay, I want to say one of mybiggest missions that I feel in
this season is to help theChristian know that we don't
(36:24):
need to keep managing what Jesuscame to save, heal, and deliver
us from.
I was managing it withdepression medicines instead of
getting to the root of it.
Jesus came to heal mecompletely.
He came to save me completelyand he came to deliver me
completely.
I believe he came to do allthree and not just wait till I
get to heaven, but he wantsheaven on earth.
And in order to do that, we haveto quit managing the things that
(36:46):
he came and he died for.
He didn't just die for our sins,he died that fear would be
eradicated, that perfect lovewould expel all fear.
He came that we would be setfree from addictions and bondage
to addictions and bondage to thesin.
I mean, I ache for the Christianwho's sitting on the pew and
they're still in bondage to thethings that they know.
They're like, I know this issin, but I can't stop doing it.
(37:08):
And I'm raising my hand becauseI I was that person.
And as I grew closer to God andstarted learning how to hear his
voice, I wanted to know how toquit having outbursts of anger.
And in my I I see it now.
Like I was working with someonethis morning who was like, I
don't know, this isn't me.
I don't, I don't know why.
I'm just like, there's just thisone thing, and I just go crazy.
(37:30):
And I don't want to do that.
And I'm like, oh, honey, you'retalking to the right person.
I know exactly what's going onhere.
And I ache for you to hear that,that you're not the only one
going through this.
But God does want to set youfree.
We got to quit managing it andwe got to address it, we got to
name it.
And so through prayer, we ask,we're asking Holy Spirit, okay,
we we see this thing here, butwhat is she afraid of?
(37:54):
What is its name?
And sometimes we call it spiritof fear or spirit of anger.
And I'm like, okay, maybe that'swhat it is.
But why are you angry?
Why are you afraid?
What what what is down therethat you haven't forgiven?
I feel like there's someone thatyou need to forgive if you got
anger.
And that's how that's how Godhas shown me.
(38:15):
There's there's pieces to thepuzzle, and there are people
that can help you, like justlike Sam, he he can help you get
down to the root of the issue.
You don't have to manage itanymore, right?
And so that's my heart's desireis like, let's quit managing it
and get down to the root of it.
What it what are you afraid of?
So for her, for instance, it wasfear of um, there's well, hers
(38:35):
was so unique, but maybe I needI feel like I need to speak it
out.
Am I allowed to let the spiritlead here?
SPEAKER_00 (38:41):
Sure, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (38:42):
Like she was she it was in marriage, and there was
duty.
She was she was addressingmarriage for 15 years of her
beautiful marriage as it was aduty because she didn't
understand that God lovesmarriage.
She thought it had to beoppressive, it had to be.
She didn't know that there wasanother option, and I'll tell
you the truth will set you free.
(39:03):
And she knew the truth.
She was like, she was aching.
She was like, I think that thisisn't right.
Like, yeah, you're right.
It's not, it's not marriage issupposed to be beautiful.
God is love, he would never say,go get married so that you could
be a slave the rest of yourlife.
No, he wants you to get marriedbecause it's beautiful, it's
it's there's love there, there'slove available.
(39:24):
So there was fear of uh marriagebeing wrong, anyways.
We had to you have to name thething, you have to get down to
the bottom of it, and God lovesto help us get to the bottom of
it.
SPEAKER_00 (39:34):
Yeah.
I think when we start digginginto some of that story, as
you're as you're saying, kind oflike when we start digging,
we're not liking what we'reseeing, so we stop digging,
right?
Oh, so there's no not enoughdigging.
Um, and I think when you havesomeone, whether it be a
counselor, a director, spiritualleader, who's not forcing, but
(39:58):
who's moving into that space andExploring with them and giving
more space to go deeper, youknow, they've never been put in
that position.
So now they're kind of in a wayforced to go.
And you start to see right thedifferent layers that are
actually there.
Um, you know, and there's somany thoughts also as well on
the idea of um, yeah, what isthis this idea of of thorn in my
(40:21):
side?
Yeah.
Right.
Uh, what was that in referenceto?
Because then we can alsoreference Job and his experience
as well.
SPEAKER_01 (40:28):
So oh, that's a whole another trigger too.
I'm like, are you talking aboutthat?
SPEAKER_00 (40:32):
So there's a lot of these things I think that, at
least for the audience, as youas you're listening, there are
these moments where you knowyou're gonna experience full
healing.
Uh, again, that could be fromfrom anything.
But then there's this otherpiece of maybe suffering is also
what keeps us close to God.
SPEAKER_01 (40:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:51):
You know, maybe that's also this piece of if
everything were okay, when wouldI turn to God?
SPEAKER_04 (40:58):
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00 (40:59):
And I think it it throughout our our our life
experiences, I think those aresome of the things that we start
to see is that we, when we gothrough something difficult, we
start to trust God.
And then that strengthens ourfaith so that when things are
well, we're still sticking closeto Him.
And there's something else thatmay happen.
Again, there's all it's justlife in general.
The Bible does promise, as wesee in Revelation, one day there
(41:20):
will be no more tears, yeah, nomore pain, no more suffering.
SPEAKER_01 (41:25):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (41:26):
And um, and that's I look forward to that, Heather.
I know we we both look forwardto that that you know, there's
there's this uh element of Iknow that this is temporary,
that the Lord is gonna comesoon, hopefully sooner than than
we than we think.
Um, but all that's to say, ontop of that, we can still have a
thriving, good, solidrelationship with Christ as we
(41:47):
draw closer to Him.
SPEAKER_01 (41:48):
Yeah, I'm thinking like God also promises
temptation and you can betempted without sin.
He also promises trials andtribulations, but they don't
have to destroy you.
In fact, they could grow you.
Absolutely apart from trials.
I don't think it's possible togrow apart from trials.
(42:09):
You your perseverance grows inthat.
So maybe you're thinking it's athorn in your flesh, but I would
question to you is it somethingthat you're managing and you
just you don't want to get tothe root of, or you haven't
found the right person to praywith you to get to the root of?
Because yeah, Paul was praying.
(42:30):
I think it says he prayed threetimes for God to remove it, and
he, I mean, he he he knew how toget to the throne room.
And when God says leave italone, then you leave it alone.
But has God really said that toyou, or are you just copying out
because it's hard?
SPEAKER_00 (42:45):
Yeah, yeah.
No, that's a great point.
Yeah, great point.
Digging deeper, having peoplearound you who can help you get
to that point as well.
SPEAKER_01 (42:54):
Yep, yep.
SPEAKER_00 (42:56):
Well, this has been great, Heather.
I you know, usually as as we'retalking about this, is there
anything that I missed, anythingthat you would like to share
with the audience regarding thistopic that we may not have
covered?
SPEAKER_01 (43:06):
You know, perfect love expels all fear.
And so if you are afraid, thescripture continues.
I think I I started this pointearlier.
The scripture continues says ifyou are afraid, it's for fear of
punishment.
And I've kind of learned throughthe different layers that God's
showing me that there'sdifferent levels of fear.
And yes, there can be lots oflevels of devils and this and
(43:29):
that, but fear in general, youeither have fear of man or you
have fear of the Lord.
And fear of man is really fearof punishment.
So in some regard, you'refearing punishment, and it's not
all about your salvation.
Although that scripture talksabout like perfect love expels
all fear.
Like you should know you'regoing to heaven.
(43:49):
There shouldn't be anything tobe afraid of.
Even if you die, there's nothingto be afraid of.
And some people are afraid ofdeath.
And I'm like, are you in lovewith God?
Because you're not supposed tofear death.
Now there's reasonable thoughtsof it, but don't keep your
thoughts fixed on it.
And so fear of punishment hasbeen something that God's really
been highlighting in this seasonfor me and for a lot of the
people that I'm talking to.
(44:10):
Fear of punishment goes in a lotof ways.
We can we can see it play outwhen we're where fear of
punishment is you're not gonnabe witnessing, you're not gonna
be uh digging deeper, your yourmouth might be covered, you
might be like shrieking back andnot saying what you want to say.
Fear of punishment is reallysilencing the body of Christ.
(44:31):
And I'm I'm saying perfect loveexpels all that.
So if you have fear ofpunishment in your life, you're
gonna find yourself quiet,you're gonna find yourself where
your God confidence isn'trising, you're gonna find
yourself where uh you justshrink back.
And I would say perfect loveexpels all fear.
So what kind of fear?
Name the fear.
Is it fear of punishment?
(44:52):
Is it fear of being alone?
Is it fear of abandonment?
Is it fear of the unknown?
Is it a fear of what?
If you can name the specifickind of fear, because the Bible
talks about fear, he says it'snot giving you a spirit of fear,
but of love, power, and a soundmind.
But what kind of fear are youfacing?
If you know its name, you cantell it to go.
Isn't that good news?
SPEAKER_03 (45:13):
That's good.
That's good.
SPEAKER_01 (45:15):
Naming it is so powerful, it's so powerful.
And so that's what I would leaveyou with is name the fear.
Don't just call it fear, namethe fear.
Fear of what and why, where toget in.
And that's how you can get freefrom it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:28):
Awesome.
That's great.
Thank you thank you, Heather.
Heather, for those who arelistening, how can they find
you?
I know you have a podcast aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (45:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:35):
And yeah, share with us a little bit about that.
And where can the audience findyou?
SPEAKER_01 (45:39):
Yeah.
So I have a podcast called Healwith God.
I would love to get you get toknow you over there.
There's hours of free training.
And then every third Monday ofthe month, I offer a free live
workshop where we can come andheal the root of the of
whatever's going on.
Maybe you got the thorn in theflesh, and I'm like, let's get
that thorn out.
I want to help you get thatthorn out.
(46:00):
So every third Monday of themonth, you can come to this is
free.
Go to HeatherObrien.net slashworkshop and you can sign up
today and be ready for the nextone.
And I'd love to see you there.
SPEAKER_00 (46:11):
That's awesome.
Heather, thank you again forbeing on the on the show.
I really appreciate it.
I love this conversation.
We also had a previousconversation.
So um I'm looking forward towhen we release these.
Thank you again, guys, and I'llsee you next time.
Alright everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
I'm so thankful that you'rehere.
As usual, always trying to findnew topics to discuss with you
about your relationship with Godand your relationship with
others.
And today we're going to talkabout how to distinguish fear
from our relationship with God.
And my guest, Heather O'Brien,is going to be discussing this.
(00:29):
Welcome to the show, Heather.
SPEAKER_01 (00:31):
Hey, yeah, I'm so excited to be here.
I'm looking forward to thisconversation.
I know it's going to be so good.
SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
It's going to be great.
We had a conversation earlier.
It flowed so well.
And I think that this one isgoing to be one of those that's
going to be super beneficial forthose who are listening.
So, guys, as always, thank youfor your support.
Tune into the podcast.
I'm on iTunes and Apple Podcastsand Spotify.
And also leave a review.
(00:56):
The reviews are so helpful.
It kind of gives me a gauge ofhow you guys are tuning into the
podcast.
And also lets me know just kindof what topics are of interest
to you.
I have had some of those and Ialways enjoy bringing new topics
to you guys.
So thank you again for beinghere.
And uh Miss Heather O'Brien, soglad that you're here with us.
(01:18):
Again, this seems to be yourarea of expertise as you talk
about fear in our relationshipwith God.
But before we jump into ourtopic, I usually just like to
give you the floor and just uhshare a little bit about who you
are and and what you do and umand anything else that you'd
like to share.
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
Yeah, so I well, I don't have all the the letters
behind my name like you do.
In fact, I have no lettersbehind my name.
But I I like to say that I'm aI'm a licensed minister, I'm not
a licensed therapist, so I Ilike to make that clear.
I don't have all of the bookknowledge, I have the spiritual
knowledge.
And I think both are handy.
Yeah, both come in handy.
(01:56):
I I was an accountant before Istarted doing all the healing
business.
And um, so I I would do people'sbooks and you know, all that.
And so I I know what it's liketo work a full-time job and have
kids and still need to gethealing done, still need to do
all the stuff and feel like thebusy life.
And um, so I guess I come withthat side of it, knowing, you
(02:19):
know, there's differentperspectives from all of this.
Like some people are like, howdo you how do you do all these
things and have all and I havethree kids, I've been married
for 23 years.
And I'm like, well, um, God'sgiven me a lot to steward, yes,
but also he showed me how tosteward it.
So I can't wait to help andshare, share all those tips and
tricks with you.
SPEAKER_03 (02:36):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (02:37):
Yeah, I'm a prophetic healing coach, is what
I like to call myself now.
I like to hear God's voice inorder to help people heal,
specifically Christians.
And I hear God's voice in a lotof different ways, so don't get
freaked out.
It's not like some boomingvoice, but I hear God's voice in
the scriptures, I hear God'svoice in prayer.
I I have, you know, all thedifferent ways, but he's just so
(02:59):
good that he wants us healed andhe will speak to his children to
to make it happen, to see itcome to fruition.
SPEAKER_00 (03:07):
Absolutely, absolutely, you know, and and
I'm curious, Heather, you yousaid you used to do accounting.
What was that transition likefor you?
Because I know that's that'squite a shift.
SPEAKER_01 (03:17):
It is a shift.
So uh I when I had babies, all Iwanted to do was be their mom.
And I did that, you know, for atleast a year or more for each of
them.
And the last one, I wasthinking, okay, I'm gonna have
this baby, I'm gonna send theother two off to school.
And I'm like, I was just soexcited.
(03:38):
I was gonna like not work atleast for a I was thinking a you
know, a year, but God had otherplans.
And my uh middle child was insecond grade there, and he
wasn't doing really well, and hewas like, He's needing me to be
homeschooled, basically.
And I had no desire to do that,like 0.0 in the negative desire.
(04:00):
Even my mom recalls me saying,I'll never homeschool him.
That's weird.
And I'm like, uh, okay, got yousay what you'll do, and God will
laugh at you.
But he started putting thatdesire in me to homeschool him.
And so I started, you know, at aa lot when I had my newborn, I
was home learning how tohomeschool.
(04:21):
And so now I'm in year eight ofhomeschooling and doing things
different.
So, and it's not like God throwsaway everything that we learned
before.
I I love that that I learned howto do accounting and now I run a
business, and so it it builds onit, and also I have the teacher
uh calling in my life, yeah,spiritual side of it, and it
(04:44):
I've never got formally trainedon how to teach people, but that
teacher side of me is in there,and I'm able to figure out how
to do it with the homeschooling,and so it all blends together,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (04:53):
That's amazing, yeah, absolutely.
I love that, yeah.
And and that's kind of this thesame thing of you know being
sensitive to the Lord's callingis that sometimes so out of left
field, you're like, is thisreal?
Is this actually happening?
And you go through it, andagain, the Lord provides along
the way.
So I love that.
Thank you for sharing that.
Yeah.
Well, Heather, we're gonna betalking about how to remove fear
(05:15):
from our relationship with God.
Um, on this podcast, I talk alot about attachment styles, and
this topic was of interest to mebecause fear is one of those
driving forces for someone who'sanxiously attached.
Um, the fear is will my needsever be met?
The fear can be, you know, isGod gonna hurt me?
Are people in the church gonnahurt me?
(05:36):
There could be a bunch ofdifferent fears, and I know this
is one of the topics that youenjoy talking about as well.
And you talk about fear beingmore of a symptom, not the root.
Can you elaborate a little bitabout that and maybe even share
what you see fear as how thatcontributes to a relationship
with God?
SPEAKER_01 (05:54):
Well, yeah, so fear actually, okay, so it could be a
symptom because a lot of timeswhat we're thinking and feeling,
we love to go by our feelings inthis world.
I mean, how many people arelike, well, I felt this, so I
did this, and I'm like, that'snot biblical.
But our feelings are so powerfuland they tell us what to do
(06:16):
sometimes.
If we're not being led by thespirit, we're gonna be led by
something.
And our feelings are so loud andthey seem so reasonable, and
fear is a feeling.
It's it's it well, it can be, itcan be a feeling, it can be a
thought, it can be uh a naturalGod-given thing.
You know, a bear's coming at youand you you need to run, okay.
(06:37):
That fear and that feeling, theygo hand in hand and they're
telling you what to do, and youshould obey when it's a bear
running at you.
But uh, it's a symptom.
Like fear is a symptom of, hey,there's a bear coming, so I'm
gonna run.
And so it's a it's telling uswhat to do.
But there's other places in ourlife where fear is not, it's not
just a natural thing that weneed to follow.
(06:58):
And I say it's a symptom becausea lot of times we feel anxious,
we feel anxiety, we feelworried, uh, whatever word you
want to put it in there.
And all that to say it's asymptom of what you're thinking
or maybe what you've experiencedin the past.
Because our experiences feellike truth to us.
(07:19):
They key word here, feel theyaren't our truth, they feel like
truth.
Um, so we could go in a lot ofdifferent directions with this.
Ask me more questions.
SPEAKER_00 (07:29):
Yeah, no, I think that's a good point.
So feeling like truth versus itactually being true.
So, for example, I guess the onethat comes to mind is um my
parents were not attentive to myneeds, right?
Uh, my parents mistreated me,could be an example.
So that is true that did happen.
(07:49):
So, how would you distinguishthat from okay, that do you uh
affirm that they did experiencethat, but then work with the
feeling?
Like how would you navigate thatprocess?
SPEAKER_01 (08:00):
Okay, this is a great question.
I love this.
Here's what I do.
I the word truth, okay, and thisisn't just semantics for me.
Uh, it might sound like it for aminute, but just stick with me
here.
The word truth to me means theword Jesus because Jesus said, I
am the truth.
Okay, I'm the way, the truth,and the life.
And so if it's not in the Bible,it's not truth.
(08:23):
If it's not Jesus, it's nottruth, but it can be a fact.
It's a fact that you experiencedthat.
You did experience that.
That's that that's the fact.
SPEAKER_03 (08:33):
Interesting.
Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (08:35):
Okay, and then but the but are there any lies that
you believe in that?
Did any lies seep in that, well,they didn't take care of me, so
no one will.
See how that's yes, it's itseems reasonable, but it's not
true.
And sometimes we have thesethoughts that go on in our mind
that says, This is a reasonablethought.
(08:55):
That if I just stay at home,I'll be safe.
If I don't go out there, or if Istay in my room, I'll be safe.
If I stay isolated, I'll be safefrom the people that are in the
rest of the house, whatever itis.
And so it's it seems reasonable,but it's not the truth.
Because the truth will set youfree.
But right now you're isolatedand alone and full of fear.
(09:16):
You see what I'm saying?
So it's not necessarily it's notreally semantics here, it's
really understanding.
Okay, that if the truth will setme free, why am I still bound?
And if I'm still if I'm bound,then this isn't truth.
This is what I've experienced,and it's a fact.
And so I hope that helps.
It's um, it's really helped mein figuring out how to help
(09:37):
people and use all the rightwords.
SPEAKER_00 (09:39):
No, no, that I think that makes sense.
So fact versus truth, and whenyou say truth, you're talking
about Jesus as the truth.
Jesus says, I am the way, thetruth, and the life, no one
comes to the Father but throughme, right?
So in that, I think there's thispiece of well, the way that we
find God is through throughChrist, right?
He's the truth.
That's how we find him.
(09:59):
Um and for people who haveexperienced something negative
in their life, what's what'ssomething that creates the most
fear for Christians?
Uh, do you think?
Um, what what are some of thethings that you hear with your
clients or people that you workwith that they're afraid of in
their relationship with God thatthey're believing about
themselves?
SPEAKER_01 (10:19):
In the relationship with God, I would say they're
afraid to trust him.
It's probably at the top of thelist, afraid to trust him.
And uh there's also this fear ofwell, okay, there's so many
fears.
Let me just like throw somespaghetti on the wall here.
You've got fear of man, you'vegot fear of feeling powerless,
(10:44):
fear of being rejected, fear ofuh you name it, and there's this
this great scripture in firstJohn chapter four, and you might
know part of it, but I wonder ifif you've heard all of well, you
know it, but you know, thelisteners, like it says perfect
love expels all fear.
So we're talking about fearhere.
And I would say, so if that'strue, if perfect love expels all
(11:07):
fear, then the opposite of fearis love, not faith.
And so in this world in the USA,we keep we've got this phrase
going on, faith over fear.
And it sounds good, but I'mlike, that doesn't even make
sense.
Because here's what I'm dealingwith.
I'm dealing with the fact thatI'm I'm working with clients day
(11:30):
after day who have faith intheir fear.
Faith has protected their faithin fear, has protected them,
their fear has protected them.
In other words, I was I wastalking to you about isolation,
like they fear what mighthappen.
So there's the fear of theunknown, there's the fear of uh,
I don't know what's fixing tohappen.
(11:51):
And and all of these fears, theyfeel like protection.
They're keeping them safe.
So they have faith in theirfear.
And so if you have faith in yourfear, then you don't have faith
in God, and God is love, andperfect love expels all fear.
So it's like this you can't everget to the freedom part if you
don't have faith in God, andthen you have all of the love
(12:14):
that will expel all fear.
Uh I like to go ahead, go ahead.
SPEAKER_00 (12:19):
No, no, yeah, no, it's is it only in their
relationship with God then?
So, what would that look likewhen you're talking about having
faith in God?
Because I think most people,because we have a different
version, I guess, in our minds,and you you did a great job
earlier about describing what itcould look like, but what would
it look like to have faith inGod?
SPEAKER_01 (12:40):
So you want trust, you want to trust God.
You want, and some people say,I've I've done it the best that
I could.
I'm trusting him the best that Icould, but also I have um I have
several people that say theyfeel like they're missing the
mark.
They're that they can't trusthim for his fine for their
finances, and so they're wrappedup in fear and anxiousness,
anxiety and worries.
(13:01):
Let's just go with the financialexample.
I think a lot of people couldresonate with that.
So they're not trusting God,they don't have faith in God to
meet their financial needs.
Maybe they've never experiencedit happening.
And and I I could raise my handfor that.
I remember a time when I wasfull of anxiety, so the world
was dizzy, panic attacks,wondering about this financial
bill that was not gonna getpaid.
(13:23):
And I'm the accountant here, andI'm like, I can't figure this
out.
Like, it's not the math, doesn'tadd up.
There's no enough money in thebank, God.
And he's like, But can you trustme?
And I'm like, how can I trustyou?
You've never done this for mebefore.
And sometimes we think aboutthat in in the world, like we
can't we can't trust peoplebecause they we've never
experienced them working out.
(13:43):
The relationships don't usuallywork out, so we don't trust all
men are X, Y, Z.
We we can't trust all men, likewe just put them in this whole
bucket and instead of this oneparticular circumstance where it
didn't work out.
And and my point is we can't wemight not can trust God for our
finances because he's never doneit before, but what can we trust
(14:03):
him for?
Did the sun rise today?
Did did the moon come out whenit was supposed to?
Can we trust him that he's gotall of the stars hanging and
perfectly you know working out?
Can we trust that we are gonnahave our next next breath?
I mean, we're not guaranteed it,but somehow it just keeps
coming.
(14:25):
I'm giving basic examples here,but we can trust him for things
that we haven't maybe evenconsidered.
SPEAKER_00 (14:31):
Yeah, yeah.
As you were sharing that, I'msorry, the no, no, go ahead, go
ahead.
Yeah, as you were sharing that,I started thinking about
oftentimes I think we we trustGod for the outcome and not for
the process.
Oh, right.
So we're waiting for the outcometo happen.
And because we're waiting for itto happen, we we we get anxious
(14:52):
about that.
But the process, and I thinkkind of maybe what you're
alluding to is we're trustingGod's character, yeah who he
says that he is, he says I'mfaithful, he says I'm loving, he
says I'm gonna care for you.
So we're trusting in that truth,going back to your original
point, that truth of who he isas a person, as a father to us.
SPEAKER_03 (15:11):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00 (15:11):
And the outcome may not be what we want because I
think that's what people alsothink when they're saying, Well,
what I prayed for didn't happen.
Maybe it's not what you needed.
I don't know.
You know, it could be somethinglike that, right?
So I think sometimes that ideaof trust is people think that if
they had if they're praying forsomething and that outcome
doesn't happen, they start tolose their trust in God in a
(15:34):
sense.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (15:35):
Yeah.
That's a perfect example.
No, that's a perfect example.
So when um uh there's thisthere's this thing that to trust
God, uh, I keep thinking of thescripture, trust and obey, for
it's the only way.
So to trust God and obey meansthere's a formula here.
It says he'll keep in perfectpeace those who trust him and
(15:56):
fix their thoughts on him.
And so if you have anxiety andworry, then you haven't trusted
him and put your thoughts inhim, and you're like, okay, I
don't know how to trust him.
And I would like to help youwith that.
To trust him is a lot like yousaid, it's it's believing by
faith in something you can't do,only he can.
(16:16):
There's this faith element thatwe miss in all of this.
It's like we want to do stuff,we're like human doings instead
of human beings, right?
And we we want to do, do, do.
And the only thing he wants youto do is to love God and love
your neighbor as you loveyourself.
That's the only thing he'sasking of you to love you.
Love God, love your neighbor asyou love yourself.
And to trust him means if I dothose three things, he's gonna
(16:39):
come through.
And that doesn't even make sensebecause that seems too easy,
right?
SPEAKER_00 (16:44):
Right.
Or people, us as people, we'renot like that either.
You know, so going back to thataspect of sometimes we we miss
that, or because we fail onceand when in a while, we have the
inability to to trust Godbecause we base it off of our
experiences with each other.
But God is not us, He's not us.
SPEAKER_01 (17:00):
That's true.
Yeah, that's true.
Okay, so you just went there.
I want to go there for just asecond.
I was talking with this with aclient, uh, I think yesterday,
we were talking about trust.
And um, the person that sheneeded to get trust in, this is
a human, she couldn't figure outbecause you know, experience
says that it's not gonna workout if if we put our trust in
(17:21):
them.
They're not gonna show up,they're not gonna be reliable,
they're they're not gonna betrustworthy.
And I'm thinking about that, andI think about the word trust,
forgiveness and love, theyactually all go hand in hand.
Let me let me help you.
Let me let me connect the dotsbecause it doesn't seem like it
does, but it does.
Okay.
Uh forgiveness is me choosing toforgive you.
(17:42):
I don't go by my feelings.
Now, I we we could talk aboutforgiveness for days, right?
But if I could just tell you thedefinition of forgiveness, it's
a choice.
It's not a feeling, it's it's achoice to do it.
Now you there's there's steps,right?
There's the process, it andthere's healing involved, but
forgiveness ultimately, bottomline, is a choice.
(18:03):
No one's gonna make you do it,no one can make you do it,
honestly.
And I would I I would take thethat the same way with love.
So God has given us this freewill to choose him or not choose
him, to love and obey him ornot.
He says there's blessings if youdo, if you if you do what he
says and you follow his ways,there's blessings.
(18:25):
It's full-on free will.
You get to choose.
And it's always for your good.
He's always got good thingsplanned for you, but it's always
your choice.
So it's your choice to forgive,it's your choice to love, and
then you go to trust.
And in the human world, whatokay, I'm spiritual here.
I my husband's like, you makeeverything too spiritual.
I'm like, no, everything'sspiritual.
(18:47):
But when it comes to trust, thehuman world, everyone wants to
say trust is earned.
And I want to say in thespiritual world, trust is a
choice.
Okay, I know no one likes that.
Everyone's like, turning me offright now.
Trust is a choice.
And so, yes, experience says Ican't trust them, but okay, let
(19:09):
me just let me just take thisone little little level deeper.
What if your trust isn't in thehuman, but it's in God using
that human for your good?
Okay, let me give you anexample.
We love stories, right?
Okay, so my last baby, I was uh,I did not want to have an
epidural because the first two,it quote unquote didn't work.
(19:31):
It was just a mess.
And I was like, I just don'twant to do that.
Let's just not do that.
But before I went into labor, Iprayed and I prayed this prayer.
God, I don't want to have theepidural.
This is my I'm telling you whatI want.
But I said, but I know you knowwhat's best, and whatever the
doctors and nurses and themedical people want me to do,
I'm gonna do and I'm gonna trustthat they are being led by you.
(19:54):
Okay, so I'm putting my trust inGod through them.
I'm gonna say, I don't, I don't,and I had the same.
Midwife for all my babies, okay.
All three.
Even this one that was fixed tocome out was was still in charge
of this one.
And the you know, she wasn'tgiving me the epidural, but she
was in charge of telling me Ineeded it.
All to say, um, the third babywas coming.
(20:15):
The pain was so bad, and I'm,you know, I'm toughen it out.
I don't mean that epidural.
I'm fine.
She she literally she came in,she checked me, and she left
running, physically running, togo get the the doctor guy who
does the epidurals who wasgetting in his car, literally
yanked him out of the car tobring him back to me.
And and I needed the epidural iswhat I want to say.
(20:38):
I didn't want it, but I neededit.
And she knew I needed it.
In fact, I I don't have anyproof behind this, but I think
that it saved my life.
I think that I was in so muchpain that it would have killed
me.
And I don't have any proof totell you that, but I feel like
that's what God revealed to melater that I put my trust in him
to use the medicalprofessionals.
And so my my trust wasn't in themedical stuff, my trust was in
(21:01):
God to use them appropriatelyfor my life, whether they were
serving God or not, it didn'teven matter.
I hope that messes with you alittle bit too.
I put my trust in God for thepeople around me, and I do that
regularly now.
I'm like, God knows what I need.
And so if you go to the doctor,you go to the XYZ, like, God, I
trust that you are gonna put ina desire in them to give me the
(21:23):
right medicine or the rightinformation or the right
whatever.
And so trust is a choice, butwho are you putting your trust
in?
Is it in people or in God?
Because God is trustworthy.
And go back to what you said aminute ago.
We put God, we put our trust inGod's character.
He says he's faithful andconsistent and trustworthy.
And so he is.
(21:44):
He can't not lie.
Yeah, I hope that helped.
SPEAKER_00 (21:46):
I no, that's good.
That was a really good example.
You know, when you when you saidthat, it started to remind me a
lot, because you said this realvery clearly.
You said, um, whatever it isthat you think I need,
communicate that to them, right?
So you didn't pray for aspecific outcome.
You didn't say, I don't want theepidural, please let lead them
(22:07):
in that direction.
And I think most people, whenwe're praying for those things,
we pray specifics.
I want this, I want to marrythis person, I want this outcome
for my school, I want this job,and so on.
But we don't pray through theprocess like you did, about
whatever you think I need,communicate that to them.
And it very much also remindedme of Abraham and Isaac, right?
(22:30):
I mean, the outcome did not lookgood, right?
Uh-huh.
Go sacrifice your son.
But Abraham trusted who God was.
And that's the whole thing.
He obeyed throughout theprocess, and when it got time to
sacrifice his son, God stoppedhim.
So I I think there, I thinkthat's that was very helpful to
understand that we pray for theprocess and for God to use
(22:53):
people to communicate to us.
And I think he does that quiteoften too.
SPEAKER_01 (22:56):
Yeah.
And all to the point of fear.
We're talking about fear.
And so there's so much anxietyabout, well, I don't want the
epidural.
I don't, yeah, or I want to paythis financial bill and I want
it paid today.
And there's so much anxiety andangst about it.
But what when we actually putour trust in God, we will have
(23:16):
perfect peace.
Let me go back to thatscripture.
He will keep in perfect peacethose who trust me and keep
their thoughts fixed on me.
So if your thoughts are fixed onanxiety and worry and I can't
ever make this work out, thisbill is not going to get paid,
what if all of those negativewhat ifs, you're not, then your
(23:38):
thoughts aren't fixed on him.
And you he can't keep you inperfect peace.
And then if you're not puttingyour trust in his character and
who he says he is, he says he'sprovider, he says he's healer,
he says he's faithful.
And so if he says all thosethings and you just, okay, God,
you said you said you got this.
So I'm gonna lay it down and I'mgonna think about something else
right now.
(23:58):
It's almost a choice.
Yeah, you see how I'm sayingthis is all your choice.
Because I can't tell you what tothink about.
I can't change your thoughts andrewire them for you.
You have to do it yourself, youhave to choose it.
SPEAKER_00 (24:10):
Yeah, and how hard is that, Heather, for when
you're working with clients?
Because I it's such a hardthing.
So, you know, in counseling, Isee the same thing where some
people they're very cognitive,meaning that if you can get them
to think the right things, itchanges their the way that they
act, the way that they behave,even the way that they
experience things.
For others, it's they experiencesomething and that affects their
thoughts.
(24:30):
So for them, I usually workwith, okay, let's kind of get
some self-regulation going, somecoping techniques to regulate
your body, and then we can startthinking clearly with your
clients.
Like, how is that like thebiggest challenge to just get
them to think differently aboutum their thoughts that they're
having?
SPEAKER_01 (24:46):
Yeah, so I've got both going on, just like you
just said.
Some are like, yep, I'm gonna,I'm gonna manage my thoughts,
and some are like, I don't knowhow.
And so there's a couple ofdifferent ways.
I love the the way that you saidwe deal with the body first.
I do that too.
And so I I use a spiritualwarfare kit.
I I have them make a spiritualwarfare kit, and it could be
(25:09):
like in a little pouch, uh,something that you could tote
with you.
And so inside of it, you wouldhave this little list that I
would give you to print out thatsays step one, um, turn on
worship music.
Step two, put the sucker in yourmouth.
So in the warfare kit, we mighthave something that's sour, like
a warhead.
SPEAKER_03 (25:30):
Okay.
SPEAKER_01 (25:30):
And so you so step two, put the lemon warhead in
your mouth.
Sometimes when you're having thepanic attack and your your
thoughts are going crazy, youcan't think you can't think
straight.
So you're reading this.
Okay, I put the worship musicon, I got the warhead in my
mouth, and then take deepbreaths, right?
So we have we do have to dealwith the body before we can ever
do with the spiritual.
And there are spiritual prayersthat is gonna work, but first
(25:52):
you have to address the factthat you can't breathe.
Let's just get real.
You have to breathe before youcan pray the devil away.
And sometimes there is a devil,and we just need to pray.
But yes, we have to deal withall of the situation.
We're body, soul, and spirit,and we want to deal with all of
it together.
Um, and and yes, there's somepeople that it's harder to do
this.
(26:12):
So we we got the spiritualwarfare kit, but also I have
just basic checklists.
And I would say to you, what youdo in your time when you're not
spazzing out is really importantfor when you are spazzing out.
SPEAKER_00 (26:25):
Yep.
That's a great point.
SPEAKER_01 (26:26):
So if you have like this, I call it a love list.
Okay, so spiritual disciplinesneed to be done out of love, not
performance, not a check, it'snot a checklist just to say I've
accomplished it, but you gotthis love list of I'm gonna read
my Bible, worship, and praytoday, but also I'll add in some
declarations.
I'm gonna declare God's word,and I usually have something
(26:47):
specific.
So if I'm working with you and Iknow you're struggling with uh
fear, I might have with you.
So I'll even show you.
I don't know if you have my ifyou have a visual, but like I
have a phone screen that says ittalks about perfect love.
So God has not given me a spiritof fear, but of power, love, and
a sound mind.
It's on my phone screen.
So this is something like youcould have a sticky note, you
could have a um a timer come upon your phone regularly.
(27:11):
You're regularly declaring God'snot giving me a spirit of fear,
but of love, power, and a soundmind.
And so in your downtime,whenever you're not spazzing
out, you're saying that.
So when you are spazzing out, itjust flows out of you.
Yeah, that's so I think that'sreally important to um to it's
part of renewing your mind.
Romans 12, too.
(27:31):
You are supposed to renew yourmind, and in fact, you you are
in charge of it.
It let God renew your mind, butalso how are you letting him do
it?
It's not he's not just zappingyou, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (27:42):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (27:43):
We do want the God zap, but also he's like, Can you
read the word?
SPEAKER_02 (27:47):
Yeah, exactly.
Can you declare it?
SPEAKER_01 (27:50):
Can you pray a little bit?
So some of it's our our part,some of it's our part, right?
SPEAKER_00 (27:54):
Yeah, yeah.
No, and you made some greatpoints there.
One of them is there was some uha research article that I read
maybe a week or two ago, andbasically it talked about that
the things that we repeat toourselves, even if they're
untrue, we tend to believe.
So imagine to your point, you'rerepeating this truth in
scripture to yourself all thetime, that it starts to take
(28:15):
space in your mind, in yourheart, right?
And you know, the other pointthat you made that was also
excellent was it's not just whenthe fear comes, like this has to
be something that's part of yourday when you are calm and when
you're just having a cup ofcoffee, you're meditating on the
word.
Like it's in those moments thatkind of prepare you for when you
do have that anxious thought orwhen you when you do have that
(28:36):
fear, now you're ready becauseyou're already armed.
You've been practicing over andover.
And what I found clients doingis that they would wait until
that came and they would try toimplement it, and it doesn't
work because you're too over uhuh dysregulated.
SPEAKER_01 (28:50):
Uh-huh.
Yeah, it's too much.
And even like as you weretalking, I was thinking, even
having the spiritual warfare kitis preemptive.
unknown (28:57):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:57):
I have it, I know where it is, it's readily
available.
I'll go get it and it'll tell meexactly what to do when I can't
think straight.
Because I totally get that whenyou can't think straight, but
did you prepare it in advance?
And so inside of it, you mighthave the declarations, you might
have like some sticky notes, youmight have the um tactile things
(29:18):
to touch, feel, taste, see, butyou also might have the
scriptures that you can quotethat you can't think of right
offhand, but you've prepared itin the time when you're not
having anxiety.
SPEAKER_00 (29:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
No, that's great.
You know, Heather, I I'mcurious.
You know, you talk a little bitabout of maybe how you um heal
from fear, or and can you sharea little bit about that?
Because I know usually the theministries or the burdens that
we have for others stem fromsomething that we've experienced
ourselves.
(29:51):
Uh, can you share a little bitabout that?
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
Yeah, I I used to share, I used to say it so
plainly.
Oh, I had a trauma in my collegeage years and it just made me.
And then I would tell you allthe symptoms that it gave me.
But this year, God's asking meto kind of up the ante and tell
you a little bit more becausethe more you understand that I
don't have it all together,maybe you'll you'll think I have
something to offer.
(30:13):
I I my story is like it's Iwasn't hurt, no one actually
touched me.
I didn't go through a death or awar, no one died.
And the things that happened tome were emotional.
I had a brother that was uhdoing some things that he
shouldn't do.
He was getting into uh thingsthat like stealing and uh drugs
(30:34):
and going to prison.
And I was still living at home.
I was the good girl, you know, Iwas a good girl, not not doing
any.
I was in college doing allgetting all the grades and uh
planning to get married.
I was engaged, but not.
I was gonna wait a minute till Ifinished college.
And anyways, all that to say hehe made my environment feel so
(30:55):
unsafe.
So at night I would, you know, II would go to sleep and I would
wake up and my car would begone, or anything I left in my
car would be stolen, or somehowthey my life was just not safe.
And I might not be describing itall that well.
And my parents did the best thatthey could.
I love them.
And we we left Jesus, we went tochurch every Sunday.
So here's me sitting on the pewevery every Sunday and just
(31:18):
feeling traumatized by I don'tfeel safe in my own home, but
nothing's physically happy, so Ican't tell you my story because
you don't even like this,doesn't it?
And I've learned now, now I havewords to say, your trauma is not
defined by you know whathappened to you, but what it
what it's doing to you.
SPEAKER_03 (31:39):
Right, right.
SPEAKER_01 (31:40):
I I I wouldn't even tell you my story before.
So that's part of my story.
It and you know, the symptomswould be like I did get married,
I I hurried up and got marriedin two months, and I I still had
all my baggage.
I went to bed crying everynight.
I woke up in the middle of thenight just to throw up because
of the depression.
I couldn't go to bed withoutnoise.
(32:01):
I had to sleep with the TV, Ihad to double check the door
lock.
So I was living in fear andpanics.
I remember one time justfreaking out in the it was it
wasn't bedtime yet.
I was just hearing all thesenoises, and we live out in the
country, so there was youshouldn't be hearing no noises.
Like you we just don't hearstuff.
And if you hear and and it justwouldn't stop, and I and I'm
(32:22):
like in the corner, and then allof a sudden it comes to me, oh,
it's July 4th.
Oh, uh, okay, those arefireworks, but I didn't know,
and so the fear of the unknownwas overwhelming me.
Just it's just ridiculous.
I laugh, I can laugh at it nowbecause that's what fear did to
me.
But fear will regret the day itever messed with me.
I'm gonna tell you what, I gotmad at the devil.
(32:42):
I started learning how to hearGod's voice.
God, I started, well, okay, Ididn't tell you my whole story,
but I I went through depressionand I went through it for about
a decade.
And I stayed on depressionmedicines before I ever figured
out why I was sad.
SPEAKER_00 (32:53):
Oh, wow.
SPEAKER_01 (32:54):
The doctor just said, I think you need this.
And I was like, I think I dotoo.
SPEAKER_00 (32:58):
It's one of my biggest pet peeves.
SPEAKER_01 (33:00):
I never questioned it.
I didn't know you could questionthe doctor.
I didn't know.
I didn't, I'm like, yes, sir,just give me what I need.
And one day I came to myself andI was like, why am I on this
medicine?
And I know it was the HolySpirit prompting me, and I
started trying to figure outwhat what uh what what is wrong
with me because it doesn't makesense from what happened.
Maybe in your world it doesbecause you've got all of the
(33:23):
training and stuff, but I didn'thave all the training and what
happened to me, no one hurt me.
I wasn't abused physically.
I no one died, I didn't gothrough a war.
And so the the fact that I hadso much fear in my life didn't
make sense.
But I didn't feel safe, I didn'tfeel taken care of, I didn't
feel chosen.
Like my parents were taking careof him, not me, not the good
(33:44):
one.
And so I felt rejected.
There's fear of rejection thatwas huge in my life.
Fear of abandonment was there.
Unworthy, I'm not worthy ofbeing taken care of.
He needs all the help.
There's so all so you did.
SPEAKER_00 (33:56):
Did you feel a sense of shame for having those
feelings?
SPEAKER_01 (33:59):
Yeah.
Shame kept me quiet and shut up.
It wasn't until this year that Icould even tell you my
testimony.
Like, I don't want to hurtanyone.
I don't want to, you know, bad,and I'm not bad mouthing my
parents.
They did the best that theycould, they did the best that
they know how.
And that's all we ever do,right?
But it it now I can glorify Godand say, but look what God did.
SPEAKER_03 (34:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:19):
So now I'm saved, healed, and delivered.
And God has radically set mefree.
And and and it all happened bylearning how to hear his voice.
SPEAKER_03 (34:27):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (34:27):
His his voice, I started journaling.
I started hearing that I startedremembering my dreams at night.
And in the day, I'm like, God,what did that mean?
I didn't know God was talking tome through my dreams until I
started pursuing it.
And I'm like, oh, this is how Ihear God's voice.
I hear him in dreams, and hewould give me interpretations.
I got radically filled with theHoly Spirit.
(34:48):
And yeah, that that'll mess withyour your theology when you
didn't know what you didn'tknow.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (34:55):
I appreciate you sharing that, Heather.
Um, you know, there's there aresome listeners who have that
experience of um feeling theshame because they feel like
they didn't maybe experienceanything traumatic, but all of
those experiences do saysomething about um areas in our
lives that do need healing.
(35:17):
Now, there's two two usual casesthat happen.
So for some, you know, they cometo know the Lord or they have
some revelation of some sort andthey feel fully healed.
There's others who get there,who get to know the Lord, are
saved, and they actually feel alot of shame because why ain't
why am I not feeling healed yet?
Why am I still struggling withthis?
(35:37):
So for them, it's alsocommunicating that could this be
one of those lifelong thingswhere you're consistently
trusting the Lord to workthrough that process, right?
Kind of the the whole idea isthe the Paul situation, right?
His the thorn in his side wasn'tremoved, right?
It wasn't removed.
So what is that?
Is that is this one of thosethings that's going to be
ongoing?
(35:57):
You know, what are your thoughtson that?
Because there was an expressionthere.
SPEAKER_01 (36:01):
You you might have triggered me a little bit.
I I have I have way too manypeople who use the Paul excuse.
Oh, it's just a thorn in myside.
Uh I'll I'm like, are you Paul?
I just don't know.
I just don't know about thatbecause I'm not.
Okay, I want to say one of mybiggest missions that I feel in
this season is to help theChristian know that we don't
(36:24):
need to keep managing what Jesuscame to save, heal, and deliver
us from.
I was managing it withdepression medicines instead of
getting to the root of it.
Jesus came to heal mecompletely.
He came to save me completelyand he came to deliver me
completely.
I believe he came to do allthree and not just wait till I
get to heaven, but he wantsheaven on earth.
And in order to do that, we haveto quit managing the things that
(36:46):
he came and he died for.
He didn't just die for our sins,he died that fear would be
eradicated, that perfect lovewould expel all fear.
He came that we would be setfree from addictions and bondage
to addictions and bondage to thesin.
I mean, I ache for the Christianwho's sitting on the pew and
they're still in bondage to thethings that they know.
They're like, I know this issin, but I can't stop doing it.
(37:08):
And I'm raising my hand becauseI I was that person.
And as I grew closer to God andstarted learning how to hear his
voice, I wanted to know how toquit having outbursts of anger.
And in my I I see it now.
Like I was working with someonethis morning who was like, I
don't know, this isn't me.
I don't, I don't know why.
I'm just like, there's just thisone thing, and I just go crazy.
(37:30):
And I don't want to do that.
And I'm like, oh, honey, you'retalking to the right person.
I know exactly what's going onhere.
And I ache for you to hear that,that you're not the only one
going through this.
But God does want to set youfree.
We got to quit managing it andwe got to address it, we got to
name it.
And so through prayer, we ask,we're asking Holy Spirit, okay,
we we see this thing here, butwhat is she afraid of?
(37:54):
What is its name?
And sometimes we call it spiritof fear or spirit of anger.
And I'm like, okay, maybe that'swhat it is.
But why are you angry?
Why are you afraid?
What what what is down therethat you haven't forgiven?
I feel like there's someone thatyou need to forgive if you got
anger.
And that's how that's how Godhas shown me.
(38:15):
There's there's pieces to thepuzzle, and there are people
that can help you, like justlike Sam, he he can help you get
down to the root of the issue.
You don't have to manage itanymore, right?
And so that's my heart's desireis like, let's quit managing it
and get down to the root of it.
What it what are you afraid of?
So for her, for instance, it wasfear of um, there's well, hers
(38:35):
was so unique, but maybe I needI feel like I need to speak it
out.
Am I allowed to let the spiritlead here?
SPEAKER_00 (38:41):
Sure, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01 (38:42):
Like she was she it was in marriage, and there was
duty.
She was she was addressingmarriage for 15 years of her
beautiful marriage as it was aduty because she didn't
understand that God lovesmarriage.
She thought it had to beoppressive, it had to be.
She didn't know that there wasanother option, and I'll tell
you the truth will set you free.
(39:03):
And she knew the truth.
She was like, she was aching.
She was like, I think that thisisn't right.
Like, yeah, you're right.
It's not, it's not marriage issupposed to be beautiful.
God is love, he would never say,go get married so that you could
be a slave the rest of yourlife.
No, he wants you to get marriedbecause it's beautiful, it's
it's there's love there, there'slove available.
(39:24):
So there was fear of uh marriagebeing wrong, anyways.
We had to you have to name thething, you have to get down to
the bottom of it, and God lovesto help us get to the bottom of
it.
SPEAKER_00 (39:34):
Yeah.
I think when we start digginginto some of that story, as
you're as you're saying, kind oflike when we start digging,
we're not liking what we'reseeing, so we stop digging,
right?
Oh, so there's no not enoughdigging.
Um, and I think when you havesomeone, whether it be a
counselor, a director, spiritualleader, who's not forcing, but
(39:58):
who's moving into that space andExploring with them and giving
more space to go deeper, youknow, they've never been put in
that position.
So now they're kind of in a wayforced to go.
And you start to see right thedifferent layers that are
actually there.
Um, you know, and there's somany thoughts also as well on
the idea of um, yeah, what isthis this idea of of thorn in my
(40:21):
side?
Yeah.
Right.
Uh, what was that in referenceto?
Because then we can alsoreference Job and his experience
as well.
SPEAKER_01 (40:28):
So oh, that's a whole another trigger too.
I'm like, are you talking aboutthat?
SPEAKER_00 (40:32):
So there's a lot of these things I think that, at
least for the audience, as youas you're listening, there are
these moments where you knowyou're gonna experience full
healing.
Uh, again, that could be fromfrom anything.
But then there's this otherpiece of maybe suffering is also
what keeps us close to God.
SPEAKER_01 (40:51):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (40:51):
You know, maybe that's also this piece of if
everything were okay, when wouldI turn to God?
SPEAKER_04 (40:58):
Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_00 (40:59):
And I think it it throughout our our our life
experiences, I think those aresome of the things that we start
to see is that we, when we gothrough something difficult, we
start to trust God.
And then that strengthens ourfaith so that when things are
well, we're still sticking closeto Him.
And there's something else thatmay happen.
Again, there's all it's justlife in general.
The Bible does promise, as wesee in Revelation, one day there
(41:20):
will be no more tears, yeah, nomore pain, no more suffering.
SPEAKER_01 (41:25):
That's right.
SPEAKER_00 (41:26):
And um, and that's I look forward to that, Heather.
I know we we both look forwardto that that you know, there's
there's this uh element of Iknow that this is temporary,
that the Lord is gonna comesoon, hopefully sooner than than
we than we think.
Um, but all that's to say, ontop of that, we can still have a
thriving, good, solidrelationship with Christ as we
(41:47):
draw closer to Him.
SPEAKER_01 (41:48):
Yeah, I'm thinking like God also promises
temptation and you can betempted without sin.
He also promises trials andtribulations, but they don't
have to destroy you.
In fact, they could grow you.
Absolutely apart from trials.
I don't think it's possible togrow apart from trials.
(42:09):
You your perseverance grows inthat.
So maybe you're thinking it's athorn in your flesh, but I would
question to you is it somethingthat you're managing and you
just you don't want to get tothe root of, or you haven't
found the right person to praywith you to get to the root of?
Because yeah, Paul was praying.
(42:30):
I think it says he prayed threetimes for God to remove it, and
he, I mean, he he he knew how toget to the throne room.
And when God says leave italone, then you leave it alone.
But has God really said that toyou, or are you just copying out
because it's hard?
SPEAKER_00 (42:45):
Yeah, yeah.
No, that's a great point.
Yeah, great point.
Digging deeper, having peoplearound you who can help you get
to that point as well.
SPEAKER_01 (42:54):
Yep, yep.
SPEAKER_00 (42:56):
Well, this has been great, Heather.
I you know, usually as as we'retalking about this, is there
anything that I missed, anythingthat you would like to share
with the audience regarding thistopic that we may not have
covered?
SPEAKER_01 (43:06):
You know, perfect love expels all fear.
And so if you are afraid, thescripture continues.
I think I I started this pointearlier.
The scripture continues says ifyou are afraid, it's for fear of
punishment.
And I've kind of learned throughthe different layers that God's
showing me that there'sdifferent levels of fear.
And yes, there can be lots oflevels of devils and this and
(43:29):
that, but fear in general, youeither have fear of man or you
have fear of the Lord.
And fear of man is really fearof punishment.
So in some regard, you'refearing punishment, and it's not
all about your salvation.
Although that scripture talksabout like perfect love expels
all fear.
Like you should know you'regoing to heaven.
(43:49):
There shouldn't be anything tobe afraid of.
Even if you die, there's nothingto be afraid of.
And some people are afraid ofdeath.
And I'm like, are you in lovewith God?
Because you're not supposed tofear death.
Now there's reasonable thoughtsof it, but don't keep your
thoughts fixed on it.
And so fear of punishment hasbeen something that God's really
been highlighting in this seasonfor me and for a lot of the
people that I'm talking to.
(44:10):
Fear of punishment goes in a lotof ways.
We can we can see it play outwhen we're where fear of
punishment is you're not gonnabe witnessing, you're not gonna
be uh digging deeper, your yourmouth might be covered, you
might be like shrieking back andnot saying what you want to say.
Fear of punishment is reallysilencing the body of Christ.
(44:31):
And I'm I'm saying perfect loveexpels all that.
So if you have fear ofpunishment in your life, you're
gonna find yourself quiet,you're gonna find yourself where
your God confidence isn'trising, you're gonna find
yourself where uh you justshrink back.
And I would say perfect loveexpels all fear.
So what kind of fear?
Name the fear.
Is it fear of punishment?
(44:52):
Is it fear of being alone?
Is it fear of abandonment?
Is it fear of the unknown?
Is it a fear of what?
If you can name the specifickind of fear, because the Bible
talks about fear, he says it'snot giving you a spirit of fear,
but of love, power, and a soundmind.
But what kind of fear are youfacing?
If you know its name, you cantell it to go.
Isn't that good news?
SPEAKER_03 (45:13):
That's good.
That's good.
SPEAKER_01 (45:15):
Naming it is so powerful, it's so powerful.
And so that's what I would leaveyou with is name the fear.
Don't just call it fear, namethe fear.
Fear of what and why, where toget in.
And that's how you can get freefrom it.
SPEAKER_00 (45:28):
Awesome.
That's great.
Thank you thank you, Heather.
Heather, for those who arelistening, how can they find
you?
I know you have a podcast aswell.
SPEAKER_01 (45:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:35):
And yeah, share with us a little bit about that.
And where can the audience findyou?
SPEAKER_01 (45:39):
Yeah.
So I have a podcast called Healwith God.
I would love to get you get toknow you over there.
There's hours of free training.
And then every third Monday ofthe month, I offer a free live
workshop where we can come andheal the root of the of
whatever's going on.
Maybe you got the thorn in theflesh, and I'm like, let's get
that thorn out.
I want to help you get thatthorn out.
(46:00):
So every third Monday of themonth, you can come to this is
free.
Go to HeatherObrien.net slashworkshop and you can sign up
today and be ready for the nextone.
And I'd love to see you there.
SPEAKER_00 (46:11):
That's awesome.
Heather, thank you again forbeing on the on the show.
I really appreciate it.
I love this conversation.
We also had a previousconversation.
So um I'm looking forward towhen we release these.
Thank you again, guys, and I'llsee you next time.
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