From Skepticism to Faith: A Journey of Faith from the Perspective of a Catholic

Send Me Questions on Attachment

Our conversation explores the significant ways in which childhood experiences and family dynamics shape our views of God. By unpacking Ricardo's personal journey from skepticism to faith, we examine the impact of parental absence, cultural influences, and life changes as catalysts for understanding spirituality. 

• Discussion of Theosis and its meaning in Christian faith 
• Ricardo’s upbringing in a single-parent household 
• The absence of a father figure's impact on his perception of God 
• Maternal influences in shaping his understanding of faith 
• The move away from faith during adolescence and the journey to atheism 
• The role culture plays in developing beliefs about God 
• An intellectual awakening leading back to God 
• Reflection on stories and myths as windows into spirituality 
• Personal experiences leading to newfound appreciation for life in the U.S. 
• Emphasis on gratitude and faith in building a future for the next generation

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My mission is to help you understand your attachment style to learn how you can heal from the pain you’ve experienced in your relationship with God, the church and yourself.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
All right, everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
I'm excited that you're here.
It's been a while, but I'vebeen on search for or in search
for a lot of guests and I have avery special guest today,
ricardo Stacey.
I'll introduce him in a littlebit.
But, as you guys know, we talkabout attachment, we talk about
our relationship with God onthis podcast and just different

(00:29):
ways in which we can connectwith him through prayer,
community scripture andhopefully I've been providing
that type of value for you.
And today's episode is going totalk about how our upbringing
influences how we view God, andRicardo Stacey has his own
podcast.
It's called the Theosis Podcast.
Did I say that right, ricardo?

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, theosis yeah.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
Theosis Podcast.
I'm going to ask a questionabout that because I've been
wanting to ask you for a whileabout what the?
meaning is so I think I have it,but I'm curious to hear from
you.
But, yeah, it's going to be agreat conversation.
I hope you guys tune into theend because Ricardo has a really
great story, one of redemption,one of maybe even some prodigal

(01:11):
pieces there.
But overall, yeah, it ties inwell with our God attachment
topic.
As always, subscribe to thepodcast, listen, share, wanting
to continue to grow our IG pageand also just continue to get
the word out about Godattachment healing.
So, thank you for tuning in,thank you for your support.
Let's go ahead and dive in.

(01:32):
Ricardo Stacy is our guesttoday and Ricardo we met through
Instagram.

Speaker 2 (01:40):
Right.

Speaker 1 (01:41):
And started kind of seeing each other's content.
I think he's first linked upthrough Psych and Theo and then
we connected through GodAttachment, Is that right?

Speaker 2 (01:49):
Yeah, that's right.
Yeah, I started following youguys on Instagram and then we
just kind of became online penpals.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, it's been fun and we were on your podcast a
couple of weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (02:00):
Yeah, actually I'm going to try to have it out by
this Monday, so I'm reallyexcited for that.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, we were talking about false teachers in the
church and the differentapproaches of how psychology and
theology tie into that.
So, yeah, a little shout out toPsyched Theo and also Theosis
podcast, and my question is whatdoes Theosis mean?

Speaker 2 (02:20):
Right Theosis Okay, so essentially it's a Greek word
.
Right theosis Okay, soessentially it's a Greek word.

(02:40):
It's used in the OrthodoxChristian Church and it's also
used in the Eastern Rite of theCatholic Church and essentially
what it means.
It's kind of like the I guesshumanity becoming divine.
So yeah it's, I guess, to use.
Maybe this is like a new ageword, but like transcendence, so
it's leaving behind yourhumanity in order to become more
divine, more saintly.

Speaker 1 (03:02):
Would it be similar to kind of growing in
Christ-likeness?

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Yeah, that's definitely part of it.
Yeah, and then another wordthat's used for it is also
deification, but I guess, to belike, it's not about you know,
oh, can people become God?
Really you know let's you know,let's not go into that
territory right so yeah, it'snot about people becoming
deities, but yeah, I guess it'sabout, like, the burning off of

(03:30):
your, your shortcomings, yourover maybe exactly.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
And there you go, yeah, and aspiring for more,
yeah okay, cool, cool why youinterview a lot of interesting
people and love theconversations that you have.
You have a really great flowand yeah, so that made me
excited about our conversationafter our last episode too.
But yeah, man, well, go ahead.
Is there anything that you'dwant to share about yourself

(03:56):
that you think the audienceshould know?
You know?
part of it is your religiousupbringing and background and
you know who you are, what youdo and maybe just anything you
want to share about your podcast.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
Yeah, man, who am I?
Already, it's a tough question.
Deep philosophical.
Yeah, who am I?
Who is Ricardo Stacey?
Yeah, I guess.
Yeah, just kind of a briefoverview.
Yeah, so I was raised Catholic,baptized as a baby, did my
first communion confirmation andI was always very skeptical,

(04:31):
very doubtful from a very youngage so I just drifted away,
didn't really think about myfaith very much and then you
know, it's just kind of been.
It's really been a lifelongprocess really.
I came back to the catholicchurch in december of 2023, so
just a little over a year ago.
Um, but yeah, the I guess thejourney of getting here it's

(04:54):
been lifelong.
Um, not to be like toopretentious, but I guess I've
just always had kind of aphilosophical way of thinking
ever since I was a little kid.
A big part of that is actuallymy obsession with movies.
You know, I was always reallybig into movies and video games
and yeah, I remember like beinga little kid and my favorite

(05:18):
movie franchise was always Alien, the Alien movies.
I remember especially that veryfirst one I really like Just
because there's like so muchmystery.
You know it's kind of like thislike HP, lovecraft, like cosmic
horror I think they call itwhere it's just like you know
the vastness of the universe,what's out there.
So it always had me thinking,you know, that's from a very

(05:40):
young age.
And then I remember when I waswas living in mexico for some
time and uh, yeah, I was with mymom and my brother came to
visit us and he had just gottena playstation 2 and you could
play dvds on it.
And so he, he had the matrix ondvd and so he popped that in and
yeah, I was maybe like I don'tknow, eight or nine years old, I

(06:01):
forget, but yeah, I was like soblown away.
I mean, on the one hand youhave like really cool action,
special effects, all that, butjust this idea you know, I had
never thought about it like whatif this world that I exist in,
what if this isn't real?
What if I'm like dreaming orsomething?
And so it's always reallyfascinating with that.

(06:22):
Yeah, and then later on, as ateenager watching Blade Runner,
the original Blade Runner from1982.
And yeah, just thinking like,because a big part of that movie
is, you know, how do you make amachine more human?
And so what makes us human anda big part of that is our
memories, right, like ouraccumulated experiences, and so

(06:44):
that defines our personality.
And so, yeah, just thinkingabout that, because, yeah, they
insert fake memories into theserobots so that they so the
robots themselves think they'rehuman, because I guess it kind
of helps them be better robots.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
I'm not sure.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, I never really thought about that too much.
Maybe that's kind of a plothole there, but yeah, it's just
like a super fascinating thing,right, and so, yeah, just always
like really fascinated withthese big questions, and then
yeah as I got older, in my 20s,I became super fascinated with
philosophy.
I had friends who werephilosophy students actually,

(07:24):
and we would just, you know, sitaround drinking beers talking
about philosophical things andlike they would bust out
philosophy books and talk aboutI don't know, like Descartes or
you know these, like weirdFrench philosophers and you know
real, real pretentious stuff.
But, yeah, it was just alwaysreally fascinating.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
And then you had questions for as long as you
could remember, yeah, and Ialways questioned things about
life in general.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
Yeah, exactly who am I?
What makes me me?
And yeah, like who?
Um, even though I did, I guessyou could say, reject god, I was
always kind of like, who putthis all here?
Like, how am I existing?
Where's my consciousness comingfrom?
And, yeah, just really obsessedwith that.

(08:11):
And so, yeah, I think a bigpart of that, yeah, it was just
like philosophically thinking.
And then I got pretty into thisone philosopher, slavoj Žižek.
Maybe you've heard of him.
It's like this really weird guy.
I think he's, um, like Swiss orsomething, I don't know some
European guy, um, and yeah, Iremember he had this uh, it was

(08:33):
like a TV series, I think andthen he ended up making a movie
too, where he just he wouldanalyze movies and then break
down, like the philosophicalideas behind them so obviously
that was really fascinating tome because I was into movies my
whole life and into philosophy.
So I remember watching that andbeing super fascinated with how
he would break down movies intolike these philosophical

(08:55):
principles and political stuffas well.
And then that translated overto me becoming fascinated with
Jordan Peterson because that wasalso kind of what he did.
He would watch like he wouldbreak break down Disney movies,
for example like the Lion King,peter Pan.
He would break that down intowhat does this mean?
What's that?
Oh, no, nothing.

(09:16):
Oh, did you say something, sam?
No, can you hear me?
And I just became superfascinated with Jordan Peterson
and how he would analyze theseyou know kids movies, but then
make it into something like justso epic, right, with, like
psychology and religion as well.

(09:37):
And so, yeah, that got me supercurious, me super curious, um.
And then also all that pairedwith the fact that my whole life
, I, I guess I've always feltlike um, in a sense, like I can
always improve, I can always bebetter, right.
And so, yeah, all that, pairedwith, like this, I guess,
self-improvement kind of way ofthinking, it did it.

(10:00):
It led me to like, what is thefinal thing missing?
And then, yeah, I got supercurious about religions, all
religions.
And then that narrowed down toChristianity and remembering,
you know, the faith that I grewup with, which is Catholicism.
And, yeah, I have a buddy whoI've known for a while now, for
about five years, five, sixyears, I think and he's Catholic

(10:23):
.
He would go to church and I wasalways aware of this, but we
never really talked about it toomuch.
And then, yeah, just one day Iwas like, hey, man, let me go to
church with you.
And then, yeah, I was like,okay, this is what has been
missing in my life.
Yeah, that's basically how Igot here Basically we haven't
really got here.

Speaker 1 (10:42):
Yeah, that's.
You know, one of the factorsthat tends to stem from belief
in God or how you relate to Godis the background religion,
whatever that may be for you, soin your case, Catholicism.
In my case I grew up Baptist.
So, yeah, so there's a lot ofoverlap in how we would tend to

(11:04):
view God, and that's part ofwhat we're going to explore
today.
But, one big part of your storytoo, so growing up Catholic.
But another big part of it, asyou shared last time when we
were speaking, was kind ofgrowing up in a single-parent
home, specifically single mother, right.
So can you tell us a little bitabout that?
You know what was your mom like?
What was growing up in a homewith a single mother.

Speaker 2 (11:31):
Yeah, so well so I live in California.
I've been here for a very longtime, but I was originally, I
was born in Canada, and yeah, somy mom comes from Mexico and my
dad, he was an Irish, Canadianguy and yeah, so that was my
mom's second marriage.
She had been previously marriedbefore and she had my brother.
I have an older sibling who'solder than me by 10 years, which

(11:53):
is a pretty big gap, but yeahso I was born and then, when I
was about four months old, mydad he had a severe aneurysm.
And it was actually like thesecond or third aneurysm that he
had, but this one in particularwas very severe, and so he
ended up in a coma for a while,I think a couple weeks, yeah.

(12:14):
And then I think they were theywere getting ready to pull the
plug that they asked my mom like, oh, it seems like he's not,
you know, gonna wake up.
Do you want to pull a plug?
And then she was like I don'twant to make that decision.
Um, my grandmother was stillalive at the time, so she's like
, oh, all up.
Uh, my husband's mom, you know,she brought him into this world

(12:35):
, so I think it's fair that shedetermined that she made the
decision if they should pull theplug on on her son.
Um, but then, yeah, my dad didend up waking up from the coma,
but at that point, yeah, he was,I mean, there was just a lot of
brain damage at that point.
Um, so, yeah, he was never thesame.
He was essentially like a child, you know.

(12:56):
He was like, yeah, a baby, hewas like reborn in a sense, and
so how old were you at the?
time I was a baby.

Speaker 1 (13:04):
I was like four months old, so this is kind of
hearing from your mom as you gotolder, kind of what the whole
story was.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Yeah, exactly, and yeah, and I still kind of, uh,
piecing things together, youknow I'll forget over the years.
And then you know, kind of like, suddenly have questions like,
oh, hey, like what about this?
And so, yeah, it's, it's comingfrom, yeah, my mother and and
my brother as well.
My brother, uh, he would livewith, he lived with my mom and
my dad and so, yeah, I think mydad even adopted my brother.

(13:33):
So, yeah, my brother got toknow him and remembers because,
yeah, he was around, you know,like a little over 10 years old.
So, yeah he remembers my dad andhe'll tell me about him.
Over 10 years old, uh.
So, yeah, he remembers my dadand he'll tell me about him.
But, uh, yeah, my dad, um, yeah, he was never the same again.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
Uh, they had to, like , teach him how to talk again,
how to walk again, um, yeah,really really care for him at
any point too, along with your,with your mom, or no no, no, he
basically lived um the rest ofhis life in like I don't even
know what they call them, likethese hospital home places where
yeah, there were like nursesaround the whole time taking

(14:12):
care of him and these otherpatients in this home and I did.

Speaker 2 (14:16):
I would go visit him once in a while.
I think the last time I saw himI was maybe it was around like
eight or nine, something likethat.
I think that's always my go-toLike oh, I was like eight or
nine something like that I thinkthat that's always what my
go-to like.
Oh, I was like eight or nineyears old, I remember, but um,
yeah, he never really had aactual father-son experience
with him no, no, it's like, aslong as I can remember, I knew

(14:42):
he was my dad, but I just knewthat, yeah, like something,
something had gone wrong and hewasn't um, I guess, normal for
lack of a better word like Ijust knew like something was was
off.
So, yeah, it wasn't like oh,like I wasn't ignorant about it,
I just always kind of knew, um,but, um, yeah, I mean from a

(15:03):
young age, like, yeah, my mom.
I mean from a young age like,yeah, my mom.
I mean she was like, okay, well, I have to take care of my
newborn baby and my 10-year-oldson.
So, yeah, she just kind of liketook charge and, yeah, my dad
had to be taken care of in these, like, I guess, nursing home
places, whatever they're calledum, in these like, I guess,

(15:28):
nursing home places, whateverthey're called um.
And then, uh, yeah, I was prettymuch it was raised by by my mom
.
And then, uh, my brother, Iguess also helped raise me and
uh, yeah, eventually, my mom,you know she um, because men
would be interested in my mom,even even though you know she,
she had kids, but you know shewould have men approach her and

(15:48):
want to date her.
And so, yeah, from a very earlyage.
I remember, um, yeah, she wouldhave boyfriends, um, and yeah,
for the most part like greatguys, uh, but yeah, I never
really felt, um, like any ofthem were like a father figure
really, if anything.
Yeah, like as far as fatherfigures go, my brother in a way.

(16:10):
But you know, I always wantedmy brother to be my brother,
right, like I always wanted usto like be more friends.
But yeah, he did, he had totake charge, I guess early on
and you know, help like changemy diapers and I don't know like
maybe take me to school, feedme, like all this stuff, right?

(16:30):
so yeah, he uh he was promoted,I guess like dad promoted from
from brother to dad early onwhich is a huge adjustment for
all of you, right?

Speaker 1 (16:40):
a huge adjustment for moms to kind of see your
brother in that way, for you togrow up without a dad at a, in a
situation that was, you know,had nothing to do with you,
right, kind of something thathappened.
But yeah, I'm curious, you knowwhat your mom was like as a mom
, so you know, what do youremember most about her?
Was she kind of?

(17:00):
Was she dominant?
Was she kind of caring andloving, like?
What was that relationship likefor you, as you remember your
mom?

Speaker 2 (17:07):
Yeah.
I mean in general great motherreally.
Yeah, she's very, very fierce.
Yeah, you said the worddominant and for sure, yeah, she
is very dominant.
I mean just in general.
You know her life story.
It's really impressive.
She's been through so much.
You know her life story.
It's really impressive.

(17:27):
She's been through so much.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
I mean she comes from a very poor town in.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
Mexico a very poor home, puerto, yeah, yeah, and
yeah, she's from.
It's called La Arena.

Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, in Guerrero, oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:43):
I think the full name of the town is like Paso de
Arena, but then sometimes theycall it Tierra Caliente, like
hot dirt, because it's just likesuper hot over there.
But, yeah, super small town,very poor, a lot of like the
public town drunks, you know,like that kind of thing.

(18:03):
But then yeah, so she came fromthat like basically living in
like a I think their house wasmade of like adobo, like
basically a mud hut, and butthen, yeah, because of my
grandmother, who I mean, godbless her, because, yeah, my
grandfather was just like adrunk and gambler and you know,

(18:25):
I love the guy, he's mygrandfather.
But yeah he was not so great.

Speaker 1 (18:30):
He had like a strong lineage of strong moms.
Exactly yeah, my family.
It's very matriarchal, youcould say very, very strong yeah
.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
There's a lot of and, yeah, I'm not the only one in
our family.
There's been a lot of, you know, single motherhood in our
family and, yeah, I'm not theonly one in our family.
There's been a lot of, you know,single motherhood in in our
family and yeah divorces andyeah, there's there's definitely
a lot of, yeah, strong women,uh, in my family and so, uh, but
yeah, then she, she was raised,they, they left the small town,
they went to Mexico City for abetter opportunity, thanks to my

(19:02):
grandmother, because she waslike, yeah, we can't, we can't
stay in this small town and,like you know, I don't want my
daughters to, like, become, youknow, prostitutes or my sons to
become, you know, alcoholics,like their father, you know
these drunk gamblers.
So they went to Mexico City andthen, yeah, everybody got an

(19:22):
education and made good livesfor themselves and then, yeah,
my mom had a good career when?

Speaker 1 (19:30):
did she go?

Speaker 2 (19:32):
So she was a secretary for the American
Chamber of Commerce in MexicoCity yeah.
Yeah, and then well before thatshe worked as a secretary in a
few different companies, likesuccessful companies.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
I think, one they made auto parts.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
And then, yeah, eventually she worked for the
government essentially.
And then, yeah, she got married.
Her first husband was her boss,but that guy he ended up being
very abusive and yeah, so sheleft him and yeah, they got
married in the church.
He was Catholic as well andyeah they I think they're

(20:16):
technically still marriedbecause they never got their
marriage like through the wholeyeah, because that whole process
through the Catholic church ofthe annulment, yeah it's very
long and tedious, so I don'tthink they ever did that.
But yeah, as far as like thegovernment stuff, yeah, they
signed the divorce papers andall that and yeah, so she left

(20:38):
her life in Mexico to go toCanada yeah, I guess in pursuit
of like something better.
And then you know, met my dad,had me and yeah, I mean just
overall, yeah, my mother she's awarrior.
Even she herself, she'll saybecause yeah, she's from.

Speaker 1 (20:58):
Guerrero.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
Mexico, which Guerrero means warrior.

Speaker 1 (21:02):
Yeah, she'll even say it herself.
Yeah, there's so much meaningthere.

Speaker 2 (21:04):
Yeah, yeah, she's like I had to be a warrior,
because it's even in the name oflike where I'm from.
Yeah, it's true, she did.
She had to, yeah, take chargeand make a lot of difficult
choices and struggle through alot of things and, yeah, she has
persevered.
And then at the same time, yeah,I don't know I think over the

(21:26):
years she's become more likenurturing, loving, softer.
I mean now because my brotherhas kids, so she's a grandmother
, and I think that also because,you know, as a grandparent, I
guess it's changes you yeah,yeah less less responsibility,
just like the fun stuff, uh.
But uh, I mean, she was neverlike cold or anything like that,

(21:46):
but maybe just not like do whatshe had to do to just keep you
guys afloat.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
So that was the warrior part but it sounds like
you're also saying that she, inthe midst of all, that she also
didn't lose her tenderness andmotherly air towards you guys
yeah, yeah, I always felt, yeah,like she, she loved me, um and
uh, she, definitely she.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
I would say she raised me, right, you know, she
raised me with good morals, eventhough, like, yeah, I did
reject like the whole faithaspect and she didn't push it on
me too much.
I mean, she did Once in a while.
It's like we're going to church, you're going to go, and you
know there's no getting out ofit.
Yeah, yeah, her faith hasalways been important to her.

(22:29):
What did she?

Speaker 1 (22:31):
teach you about god, ricardo, like, was there
anything?
Because sometimes, uh, parentsteach us things about god
implicitly and other timesexplicitly, and the ideal is
that both right, both the waythat they live their lives you
know your mom, showing thatshe's a warrior, but also that
she's able to be caring andloving and then, explicitly the
words that they're saying.
Like, how do their wordssupport what it is that they're

(22:52):
saying?
So, was there any?
Like, obviously, going going tochurch is one piece, but was
there any specific message thatyour mom taught you about God?
Like you know, you have to know, mijo, god is good, or
something like that.
You know, yeah, things that ourparents or grandparents try to
teach us about God?
Yeah, I would say.

Speaker 2 (23:11):
What comes to mind is gratitude.
It's always like, dale, graciasa Dios, be grateful to God for
what you have.
Yeah, like don't compareyourself to others.
Yeah, maybe, yeah, I guess,some of the things that she
would teach me.
Maybe they weren't even likethrough the lens of the church

(23:32):
of faith, but yeah, shedefinitely.
She taught me not to be selfishwhich is really important, like,
yeah, to think of others, right, and I remember like I have
this one cousin who he wasalways super spoiled and my mom
would criticize her sister, myaunt, a lot for how she raised

(23:53):
my, my cousin, yeah, so shealways put that in me, like, be
humble, right, and think ofothers, don't just think of
yourself.
But then, yeah, as far as likeGod specifically, I guess, yeah,
the the gratitude thing is very, very important and yeah, it's
just kind of like, um, like aresponsibility and and cultural

(24:15):
too, right, um, it's like, yeah,there's just who we are, is
what we do.
so, yeah, just very ingrained inlike, yeah, we're, we're
catholic, you were baptized, um,you know, she put me through my
, my whole uh, communionconfirmation, uh process, which
I did that in Mexico, which Idon't know if listeners are
familiar with the whole processof the Catholic Church here in

(24:39):
America, usually for kids, yeah,they put them in like these
classes, you know, teach themabout the church, the teachings
of the faith.
And yeah that can be like a verylong process, but I remember
the way they do it in mexico.
It's like all very quick.
Uh, actually, another one andone of my aunts she was like my
teacher and she taught me and mycousins who were around my age,

(25:02):
um, just like what, what weneeded to know about the faith
and what we needed to do for the, you know, first communion and
confirmation.
So yeah, it was like a superquick process uh, which, yeah, I
guess that kind of lends toeven though, yeah, I consider
myself catholic, I go to thecatholic church, but I'm still,
I'm constantly learning.
There's so much I don't know,and I think part of that is

(25:22):
because, yeah, I was justtreated as like a cultural thing
, so I didn't have to, like sitthrough classes for a long time,
uh, it's just like, yeah,you're gonna do this thing, uh,
and so, like all myunderstanding of the church and
of God, yeah, it's very in acultural way and not so much,
yeah, like something that Istudied.
So, still, it's a constantlearning process.

Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I appreciate you sharing that.
You know.
I think one of the things thatalways is highlighted when we
talk about whether it be withparents or with your religious
upbringing, is that both have avery significant impact on how
we view God.
And I'm curious, you know,knowing your history with your

(26:06):
mom, with your church, how didyou view God Like?
What was your earliest memoryof you know?
Here's how I view God, like Godis, and then you give some
adjectives or descriptions ofwho God is for you, and has that
changed over time?
Because I know I'm sure you'llget to this in a little bit
where there was a time where Ithink you said you became an

(26:26):
atheist for a little bit and youknow, kind of realized that
that actually doesn't make a lotof sense, right?
So you had a view of God beforethat.
So I'm curious what that was,because I think it helps the
audience kind of understand thatyou know how important the way
that we view God and the waythat we experience God it's so
important to our faith.
You know we have the discipleswho were around him you know,

(26:48):
around Jesus all the time sothey were able to experience his
presence and also learn fromhim, like he's talking to them.
Here's who I am.
So the descriptive, or theexplicit.
And then there's the modelingright, the implicit.
Here's what I do, here's how Ilive out being the son of God.
So, you know for you, what wasthat like you know?

(27:10):
What did you know about Godbefore becoming an atheist?

Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yeah Well, first I just want to say real quick that
, yeah, this whole your approachto it, it's amazing and it
makes so much sense to mebecause, yeah, we can't forget
that, even though we arespiritual beings, we are part
flesh as well.
So, that is where the wholelike psychological thing comes
into place.
And yeah, maybe some, somepeople, they'll overlook that

(27:34):
and just focus on the wholespiritual aspect.
But yeah, we are flesh as well,and so I think um and yeah,
that's, that's by design.
So psychology, I think, is veryimportant.
Uh, yeah, like understandingour personalities and who we are
here on earth, right it doesaffect, affect our perception of
heaven, of the divine.

(27:55):
So, yeah, I think it's reallyinteresting and that's why, when
you reached out to me to haveyou and Tim on, I was like yes,
immediately.
But, yeah, I just love thecontent you guys are putting out
, because there is, for sure, alot of overlap.
So, yeah, I really like that.
But, yeah, my perception of Godlike I said, I was very, you

(28:20):
know, rebellious.
I think my perception of Godwas yeah, it's this guy who I
can't see and he wants todictate how I live my life.
And yeah, we kind of talkedabout it on my podcast when I
had you guys on.
Yeah just like from a very youngage.
I remember, like in Mexico, myneighbor.

(28:42):
I told her, oh, it's going tobe my birthday.
And she's like, yeah, godwilling.
And I was like five years old.
And I remember telling her whatdo you mean?
God willing.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
It's going to be my birthday and I remember telling
her what do you mean?

Speaker 2 (28:53):
God willing and so, yeah, I just always had that
mentality of you know, who isthis God guy?
You know I can't see him andyeah, who is he to have
authority over my life?
And you know, I'd rather be athome playing video games than
you know, going to church onSundays it's so boring.

(29:13):
So, yeah, I think my perceptionof God was always like, yeah,
he's this authority figure andit's like okay, so I need to
like worship Him and devote mylife to Him.
But yeah, I don't.
Really I don't see why I shouldlike I can't even see Him, I
can't speak to Him directly andyou know, honestly, sometimes,
like I still like I can't evensee him.
I can't speak to him directly.

(29:34):
And you know, honestly,sometimes, like I still, even
though I am, I'm a Christ, I'm aChristian, I'm Catholic, I'm a
Christ follower, but, yeah,sometimes I do, I'll have these
questions.
Still now, like you know, isGod truly all good?
Is he all loving?
And you know, you mentioned, youknow, the apostles, the

(29:57):
disciples and getting to meetJesus, and it's like sometimes
I'll, yeah, I'll read, you know,the gospel and learn about
Jesus, but then it's like, isthis really the same God as the
Old Testament God?
You know, like we hear thestory of the woman who was
caught in adultery, that she wasgoing to get stoned, right, and
Christ said the whole thingabout oh, he who is without sin

(30:19):
has the first rock.
And so, yeah, sometimes I'llthink about that.
I'm like I feel like, if thisis the same God as the Old
Testament God, like I do havethis perception of the Old
Testament God being more angry.
So I'm like wouldn't he tellthem yeah, you know, go ahead
and stone her, but then, whenyou're done stoning her, stone
each other, because you're allsinners, right?

(30:40):
So I think I do think I havethat mentality of like, yeah,
God is a judger or a judge.

Speaker 1 (30:50):
God is a punisher.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
Yeah, I think I do have that view of God, which
maybe, yeah, it's the more harshview, like when I hear the
stuff about, yeah, god's mercyand love, and I'm like you know
as much as like, yeah, that iswhat I want, that's the truth
that I want.
But sometimes I'm like well,what's the evidence of that?
I mean, we see so muchinjustice in the world, there's

(31:15):
so much cruelty.
Yeah, sometimes I do, I havedoubts.
I'm like you know, where is he?
And this whole idea too, of ifwe're supposed to have a
relationship with him.
Shouldn't that go both ways?
Like you know, people say like,oh, you, god wants you.
But it's like I feel like I hadto, like bring myself to him

(31:37):
right, like I, I don't know.
I guess in some ways I can say,yeah, throughout my life he's
been guiding me, um, but yeah, Inever had that like clear.
Like, oh, yeah, he's, he's herewith me and communicating with
me.
So, yeah, it's like, oh, if I'msupposed to have a relationship
with him, why doesn't hepresent himself more?
Like why am I the one that hasto go to him?

Speaker 1 (31:57):
um, yeah, so there's this whole you can you imagine
to record I was just thinkingabout this as you were sharing
that.
I wonder how different it wouldhave been had your father been,
um, uh, not in the state that hewas in, but instead replicating
all of that, that idea of beingpresent with you, him
communicating with you himasking how your day's going

(32:19):
right, being really present inall of that, and if we were to
talk about, yeah, god's presentand he wants to be with you and
your dad demonstrating that toyou, like, that connection is
what I see a lot of people makeis that, well, yeah, of course
he loves me, of course he wantsto be with me, because they have
a model with their father thathe, that's all he, they're,
that's all they've ever known,right?
So that's a big piece of this,of this God attachment, is that

(32:45):
when you understand those partsof your story, it's like, wow,
you know.
So all it took, because parentsare representatives of who God
is right, cause they're able to,they're able to meet your needs
, especially when you're a baby,right?

Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, you're so dependent.

Speaker 1 (32:57):
Yeah, super dependent , right, and that's kind of the
idea is that as we get older, webecome more dependent on God
because we realize our need forhim.
And it's so interesting to seethat because it can change with
time.
Right, maybe your dad wouldhave been really good at younger
ages, but maybe when you hitteenage years or young adult

(33:18):
years, maybe he distanceshimself from you.
But that whole upbringing, thefoundation, was set for you to
understand God in such a way,because that's what was modeled
for you at such a critical time.
So it's just one of thosethings, it's just a question,
right, it's one of those things.
I'm not saying that would havebeen that way.
But the commonality when itcomes to attachment theory is
that if you have a model of whatI'm telling you that God is

(33:42):
loving, caring, kind and gentleand leap to yes, god is, that
way would be much easier whenyou had that modeled for you.
And even, as you mentioned,god's kindness and his mercy, it

(34:05):
doesn't really connect as wellbut his justice and wrath that
makes a lot of sense to me.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
It really does, yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
So it's really interesting seeing that, and
sometimes that's modeled throughour parents or through just
what we receive teachings in thechurch.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah, I even I mentioned it to you guys on my
podcast that, because I'mCatholic, the Virgin Mary, she's
very, very important to us.
You know we venerate her, wehold her in very high regard to
us.
You know we venerate her, wehold her in very high regard and
I've always, I do feel, youknow, a strong connection to her

(34:44):
.
So, yeah, I can more understandChrist through her.
It really helps it all more bemore palatable, I guess in a way
.
Like, yeah, I can, just becauseI understand that, right, I
understand more the love of amother, right, like when I see,
you know, these depictions ofMary holding the baby Jesus or,
you know, when he's beingcrucified, yeah, like I can
understand that, like, wow, like, looking at this mother, you

(35:06):
know seeing her son dying, andlike, just, yeah, her emotions,
like I can understand that morebecause, yeah, my, I always, you
know, I saw my mother, you know, going through, like, yeah, I
guess, uh, because I am, I thinkI've always right, yeah, I've
always been a good boy, I wouldsay, but you know, I have put my

(35:28):
mother through things and thenI've been kind of a pain and so,
yeah, I've definitely I've madeher suffer in some ways.
And so when I see, yeah, thevirgin mary suffering because of
her son, it's like, okay, yeah,that that makes sense to me.
I can see that there there isthat relatability, uh, and yeah,
it makes total sense whatyou're saying how, how we, um,

(35:51):
how we grew, I mean there's somany things that it affects,
right, like I hear all the timeabout how, um, you know,
especially with men I think it'sboth men and women but
especially with men who grew up,uh, in a house without the
father, you know, they're moreprone to being in jail, prone to
poverty, prone to mentalillness and all this stuff.

(36:12):
So fathers are incrediblyimportant.
Uh, I'm sure you know mentalillness and all this stuff.
So fathers are incrediblyimportant.
I'm sure you know there's allthese other things that go along
with it.
Right, yeah, but yeah, it isincredibly important to have a
father around.
And then, yeah, one thing,because you know I mentioned
that my mom, she has hadpartners.
She, actually, she just gotremarried like three years ago.

(36:34):
Yeah, I live here in the housewith her and her husband great
guy, but yeah, for a long periodof time she was with this one
particular boyfriend who atfirst you know, I really I love
the guy.
I don't know if I ever saw himas like a father figure, but I
definitely I saw him as like myfriend and I really liked him, I

(36:57):
looked up to him, I admired him, but then he started becoming
abusive, um, and you know, likeI mentioned to the background
that my mom comes from she, shehad an abusive father and so I
think for her it was just kindof like that's normal.
And then her first uh husbandwas was an abusive guy.
So, yeah, we were just kind ofyeah in this environment, um

(37:19):
where, yeah, I was kind of likeunsure about this guy, so I went
from like really loving him andthen seeing his dark side you
know he became more abusive andit's like, okay, well, I can't
trust this guy.
But you know, my mom keeps us inthis situation, um, and so you
know, yeah, I kind of feltunsafe, I guess, um, and then,
yeah, we would, we would movearound, cause so I was born in

(37:41):
Canada and then this guy thatshe was with, uh, he was from
Michigan, really close by,across the river.
Uh, yeah, cause I was born inWindsor, ontario, which is
across, uh, the Detroit river,detroit River, from Michigan.
So, yeah, we moved to Michiganwith him and then, yeah, when
things would get too hectic inthe home, we would move to

(38:02):
Mexico, because my mom alwayshad a house in Mexico and so
that was kind of like our way oflike leaving right, and so we'd
go to Mexico and say, okay,like, you know, I'm gonna leave
this guy once, once and for all.
We're gonna go to Mexico andlive our life over there, and so
I'd go to school in Mexico.
My mom, would you know, try tofind a job, but then eventually,
yeah, she would get back withhim and we'd move back to

(38:24):
Michigan and it was like, yeah,the cycle would start all over
again and then, yeah, the guy,he was a heavy drinker, he had
some bad habits, a heavy gambler, very similar to my grandfather
.
So you, can kind of see thewhole.
There's that Freudian thingright it permeates through the

(38:47):
generations and yeah, so wewould be in this unsafe
environment.
And so, as much as I do love mymother, I admire her, I'm great
for her, I think I did alwayshold on to resentment towards
her because of that, um, like,on the one hand, it was like so
unstable, like I I never I feellike I didn't really have like a

(39:08):
strong sense of self, a strongidentity, because, yeah, I was
like going to new schools andthen, even if we did, if we were
living in michigan, we wouldmove to different parts of
michigan.
So I was in new schoolsconstantly and then, yeah, in
mexico I would, I would go todifferent schools.
Uh, so, yeah, I was just likeso unstable.
So I think I've held on toresentment towards her for that.

(39:31):
And then also, yeah, just likehaving her keep us around, this
guy who was very abusive andyeah, you never knew like, yeah,
one one night he could get likesuper angry, uh, and you know I
was I was a kid like what am Igonna do?
Right?
Because like, yeah, yeah, Iwanted to like defend, defend my
mother and defend myself, butyeah, he was, he was a grown

(39:51):
adult man.
What could I do right?
So, yeah, I think that for sure.
Um, yeah, it has affected.

Speaker 1 (39:58):
Uh, yeah, I guess like my perception of like um
father, father figures, I guessmaybe like yeah um, or even just
tapping into your philosophicalmind, thinking to yourself um,
you know, how is god involved inthis if he's allowing this to
happen?
Type of thing, right?
So, if God's supposed to bemeeting a need of safety and

(40:18):
security and I'm notexperiencing that.
That's hard to understand whenyou read that in Scripture about
God being a safe haven for hischildren, right?

Speaker 2 (40:27):
Right, yeah, and just this idea that, like you know,
god is just and he will makethings right.

Speaker 1 (40:33):
It's like where is the?

Speaker 2 (40:33):
justice, you know, sometimes it feels like, you
know, god is just and he willmake things right.
It's like where is the justice?
You know?
Sometimes it feels like, youknow, is he watching?
Is he seeing what's going on?

Speaker 1 (40:38):
like, yeah, there's so much injustice yeah, so so
record what led then to the ummove away from your faith.
So what led to the um becomingan atheist like?
What was that process like foryou?

Speaker 2 (40:55):
yeah, becoming an atheist?
Yeah, like, putting that labelon myself.
Um, I think that that was thething of like, because, like I
said, I was always veryskeptical, but then, yeah,
embracing that like yeah I'm anatheist.
It was just becoming more awareof, like that, the fact that
being an atheist was a thing.
I was like, okay, that appliesto me.

(41:16):
And um, yeah, I guess mybrother, because same with my
brother, right, he was raisedCatholic but then he always had
his doubts and didn't reallyaccept it, uh.
And then, uh, yeah, so like Ihad mentioned, he helped raise
me, but then he eventually hewent away to live with his
father, right, so like I stayedbehind with my mom in michigan

(41:39):
and then my brother.
He came out to california tolive with his dad.
His dad had moved from mexicoto california, so not to get too
confusing, sorry, but um uhyeah so, so, my brother yeah.
I guess he, just his dad, neverreally cared about his faith.
So then that carried over to mybrother, who didn't care about

(42:00):
his faith, and then he just gotinfluenced by the culture.
You know, california is a veryliberal place.
People don't really care toomuch about their faith.
Or if it is, if people are, youknow know, religious christian,
um, it's kind of just, yeah,like a cultural thing.
Uh, I think, yeah, people herein california like I think they

(42:23):
they prioritize more theirpolitics like you have a lot of
these.
They call themselves likechristian conservatives, but I
think it's more likeconservative christian, like
it's more my politics.
I'm Republican, you know I votered and you know I also I
believe in this Jesus guy.
So, yeah, I think theyprioritize more their politics
than their faith.
But anyways, yeah, so mybrother he was an atheist and so

(42:45):
then I came to live with mybrother in California.
It's a super long story, sorryto cause any confusion, but then
, yeah, yeah, when I was a I waslike 11 years old, I think I
moved out to california to livewith my brother and, yeah, he
started influencing me.

Speaker 1 (43:02):
Um, you know, because , yeah, he was, he saying that
kind of led to that I don't knowif he would well to me directly
.

Speaker 2 (43:09):
I don't remember him ever saying.
But it but it was more hisattitude.
Like you know, he and Itogether we would watch, like
South Park, a lot of shows onthat channel, comedy Central.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
I don't know if you and the viewers are familiar.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
But yeah, we would just watch a lot of
entertainment where, yeah, theywould like make fun of religion
and, yeah, kind of be proud ofbeing atheists, and so I would
see him.
Yeah, just kind of like proudof being atheist and so I would
see him.
Yeah, just kind of like thatwas who my brother was and yeah,
I looked up to him in so manyways.
Uh, he was a big influence likeI mentioned, you know he, he

(43:44):
introduced me to the matrix andhe influenced me a lot with,
like, the music I would listento and just so many things.
So then, yeah, I also, Ilatched on to that as well and
how old were you at the time?
So yeah, when I started livingwith my brother.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
I think I was around 11.
Oh wow, you were still young,yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:01):
Yeah, pretty young, yeah, and then, yeah, then, you
know, I became a teenager and inmiddle school started hanging
around with like the bad crowd.
Yeah, because I always thoughtof myself as like, oh, I'm like,
I'm a good kid and my friendswere always kind of like the
more nerdier type, kids didn'treally like get into too much

(44:22):
trouble.
But then, yeah, I kind of likeI don't know I started wanting
to be more rebellious and I knowthis is like a whole other,
maybe psychological, theologicalthing, but yeah, I wanted to.
I guess, kind of like I don'tknow the way I think about it,
it's like I kind of wanted tolike get dirty.
Like I noticed like there's,yeah, like these kids who are

(44:45):
more edgy and cooler, like thesepunk rock kids, and I was like,
you know, I kind of I want tobe like them, like, yeah,
there's something intriguingabout them.
So, know, I kind of I want tobe like them, like, yeah,
they're, they're, they'resomething, something intriguing
about them.
So, yeah, I started hangingaround with like the bad crowd,
yeah, these punk rockers, liketheir.
Their favorite movie isClockwork Orange.
I don't know if you're familiarthat Stanley Kubrick movie,

(45:06):
it's a movie from the 70s.
It's just about like this gang.
Yeah, it's like kind of in thefuture, this dystopian world,
and it's about this gang, andthat was like their favorite
movie they would watch all thetime.
And so I started watching itwith them and, yeah, just like
this whole like oh, we're sorebellious, kind of thing, right
.
And then, yeah, they were likevery much against like religion
and all that stuff's lame.

(45:27):
So, yeah, I just started likeadopting all this, uh, and it
would yeah affect my worldview.
So, yeah, I started consideringmyself an atheist.
I'm like that makes the mostsense to me, yeah, religion just
kind of.
There's so many things that Ican't make heads or tails about
it.
And yeah, this whole thingabout like I can't see it, like
I can't see God, I can't seeangels or anything like that.

(45:50):
I just see what's around me,right, the material and that
that makes the most sense, andbeing kind of more like
scientifically minded.
And then I was exposed to, uh,bill maher, who's like a very
proud atheist and uh, yeah anduh, yeah, so that would
influence me, uh what was theturning point for you after that

(46:13):
?

Speaker 1 (46:13):
Because you were still pretty young, and I get
that I think when you're young,another part of that piece is
the identification with friends,right, the way we make friends
by identifying with what theylike, and that could be clothes,
music, beliefs, so I could seethat piece playing a role there
too.
But yeah, I'm curious, what wasthe turning point where you
start to say you know whatactually this atheist belief or

(46:41):
label that I put on myself?
It doesn't make sense actually.
Um, so what was that turningpoint for you?

Speaker 2 (46:45):
yeah, um, like I said at the beginning, um, it's been
a gradual process.
Um, I think really I do have to.
I kind of owe it to like a moreintellectual, I guess, way of
thinking about it, because itwas less.
You know a lot of people whenthey talk about their journey

(47:05):
with their faith.
You know their testimony.
There is a lot of emotion aboutit.
Right, Like it's like feelings,but for me it was more, yeah,
intellectual.
You know, like I said, I alwayshad this philosophical way of
thinking and like, how you know,because I was very
scientifically minded and Iaccepted like, okay, the
material world that makes themost sense, because I can see it

(47:27):
, I can touch it, I can interact.
But who put this all here?
Right?
And then, yeah, I guess thewhole you know, big bang theory
and all that, I was like okay,but really like it's all just a
series of accidents,coincidences, and like evolution
, which I think we, we touchedon a bit, uh, on my podcast as
well, uh, so, yeah, it was justkind of like it started to be,

(47:52):
yeah, I guess, more ridiculousto say there is no God, you know
to, because I, yeah, how can Isay that?
Just as much as I can't saythere is a God for sure, I also
can't say there's not.
And so, yeah, I guess it startedlike, yeah, inverting my way of
thinking because it's like,even though, yeah, I accept that
this is reality, um, but yeah,who put it here?

(48:14):
I don't think it was all justan accident, um, and yeah, just
like thinking about uh, um, Iguess like there, yeah, there
needs to be a higher power, uh,at work here, and so I would say
I went from being atheist tobeing agnostic, right, which
being agnostic kind of justmeans like you're open to it,

(48:37):
like yeah, there might be a guy,there might not be, but not too
invested.
Um.
So yeah, it was like, yeah,very intellectual process as far
as like a specific turningpoint, I don't, I can't say that
there's any specific moment,but yeah, it's just like a
gradual process.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
Um, which makes sense , being so logically thinking
through it, right, like as yougather more data, it's like,
yeah, well, that doesn't makesense, well, maybe there's a
possibility, right yeah, it'ssort of becoming more ridiculous
to me to say, yeah, there is nogod, like there's.

Speaker 2 (49:07):
Just, there does seem to be a lot of evidence of, of
an intelligent design, right.
So, and yeah, me wanting to beright, wanting to be smart, I
was like, well, no, I can't saythat there is no god, because
that just seems dumb to me.
Um, so, yeah, then it was that.
And then also the culturalthing, uh, that's a big aspect

(49:28):
of it too, right, because like I, like I said, I've always been
super into, like movies, right,entertainment.
Um, and then, like I startedlooking at just like the stories
, just just the stories, justlike as if it was fiction.
It's like, well, yeah, thesestories in all religions start
to fascinate me, right, right,actually, I always really liked
Greek mythology.

(49:48):
Specifically, I remember I hadto read Edith Hamilton's Greek
mythology.
It's a book.
I had to read it for eighthgrade I think.
Oh yeah, it was like over thesummer, between eighth grade and
ninth grade, I think which then?
later on I found out that itwasn't necessary.
It was just like.
If you want to, here's a listof books you can read.

Speaker 1 (50:09):
And so I read.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
I read, uh, Fahrenheit 451, and then this
mythology book and I rememberjust really liking Greek
mythology.
So, yeah, through this process,I just I started to look at the
stories of religion.
Um, and yeah, because of havingthis obsession with movies and
entertainment and like, yeah,just viewing the stories, it's

(50:31):
like they're so fascinating,Right.
So I did start having thisopenness to it and I'm like,
well, it'd be really bizarre,Like, were all these people
making it up?
Like whether or not?
Like because I do feel like nowyou know Christianity, that is,
that's the true God.
But yeah, in general, it's like, well, they couldn't have all
been just making it up right.

(50:52):
There's something there.
And then, yeah, beingfascinated with Jordan Peterson,
like I said, yeah, he reallyopened my eyes to, oh, there's
like incredible stories inChristianity and in other
religions and he would oftenreference I think his name is
Joseph Campbell who was, yeah,he I think he was an

(51:16):
anthropologist and just like,yeah, he would study, you know,
human culture and part of thatis religions.
And there's actually there's aseries on Netflix I forget what
it's called, but yeah, it waslike a series of interviews,

(51:46):
no-transcript.
That brought me back to to myfaith, because I started
realizing, okay, well, you know,I am, I guess, a materialist in
the sense that I believe inwhat I can see and interact with
, and, yeah, just, it startedbecoming more absurd to think
that there was not a creatorbehind it.

(52:08):
And then, yeah, thisfascination with different
mythologies and yeah, I guessacknowledging like there has to
be some truth to it.
It can't have just been made upum and yeah in my family because
, uh, you know, mexicans lovetheir ghost stories, right, and
yeah, so many all of my familymembers have so many ghost

(52:30):
stories, um, and then, yeah, oneone uncle in particular, he's
got a few ghost stories, thingsthat happen to him, and he's a
psychologist and so it's like,well, that guy, he can't be
making it up because, yeah, he'slike the super academic guy,
he's like the head of thepsychology department at this
one university.
So how can someone so educated,so intelligent, yeah, like just

(52:52):
make this up?
So it's just a combination ofso many different things.
Yeah, it's not like, becauseI'll hear stories about people
giving their testimony.
It's like, oh, you know, oneday, like, yeah, I went to the
bar and started talking to thischristian guy and I converted
right there on the spot.
Or, yeah, um, I heard a storyabout like, uh, you know,
somebody watched a movie andthen they started believing and

(53:15):
but for me it was a gradualprocess of being convinced,
right, and, yeah, honestly, Istill I I kind of struggle with
it.
You know, um, I will still havequestions.
Um, yeah, it's not like Iwouldn't say the journey is over
yet, right, like I still have alot of questions and doubts.

Speaker 1 (53:36):
I'm sorry, were you sharing more?

Speaker 2 (53:38):
No, no, that's it.

Speaker 1 (53:39):
I was going to say and your story is not uncommon
for those of us who grew up inthe church that's kind of
typically kind of how itprogresses where there comes a
questioning stage where youwonder are these my beliefs or
are these my parents' beliefs?
And then what does it mean forme to move away from these
beliefs?
If I start asking all thesequestions, right, and then on
the way back to, okay, I want tomake these my beliefs.

(54:02):
The questions then become evenwanting certainty, right?
yeah wanting to make sure thatyou have and you know everything
that you can.
But it's almost like getting toknow a person right.
As you get to know a person,you establish a foundation of
trust and security within it andat some point, because you have

(54:23):
a repeated number of situationsor instances where trust has
been developed, you don't thinkabout trusting the person.
You just do right Until they dosomething that actually hurts
you or destroys the trust youknow.
And I think one good practicethat I often encourage people to
do is you know, just look backat your life and all those

(54:44):
repeated instances when youneeded God to be there.
How did he show up?
And you'll see that you kind ofstart to develop.
Oh, he was there at this point.
He was there at this point andthis point.
And now you're like well, whyam I still distrusting of him?
Why am I still questioning whenhe's?
There's so much evidence of himjust being present in my life?

Speaker 2 (55:03):
So there's something.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
There's something that we're looking for, and it
is that fear of am I going to beabandoned?
Right Is is he actually goingto meet the need that I've
wanted?
There's no other evidence in mylife with all these other
people that have been in my life.
They've all left.
They've all been gone in someway, shape or form.
Why would God do anythingdifferently, right?

Speaker 2 (55:24):
So I think, that's.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
That's one one good good practice to um to implement
just the evidences.
Think that's one good practiceto implement just the evidences.
And that's one of the strongestthings in my own faith, where I
call it the Peter principle.
And if you remember when Jesuswas preaching and then he was
going away and his disciplesstarted leaving him Not his 12,

(55:48):
but people who were followinghim right and they started to
leave and he looks over at hisdisciples and says, will you
leave me too?
And then Peter kind of looksover and says, lord, you have
the words of eternal life.
Where else do we go?

Speaker 2 (55:59):
Right, I love it.

Speaker 1 (56:10):
It's one of those moments where you're like man,
lord, you've been here all thistime, present in my life, time
after time, saving me from thesedifferent situations and being
there even when things weren'tgoing well where else would I go
?
Why would I turn away from you?
And it touches me because I'mremembering all of those moments
and that's what builds thattrust.
So now, when I grew up onlyknowing about the just,

(56:31):
righteous, wrathful God, thatmade sense to me.
It was hard.
I read about the love, I readabout the patience, I read about
the forgiveness, but it washard to expect because it wasn't
emphasized enough.
So it's almost as I got older,the way that the Lord showed me
the other piece of his love,kindness and forgiveness, was a

(56:53):
mentor, through a mentor who Iwould share.
Something that was a struggle Iwas going through and I thought
he was going to respond withjudgment, which is what I was
used to.

Speaker 2 (57:03):
And so I was very scared.

Speaker 1 (57:04):
I'm like, oh, he's going to hate me after this, not
going to want to be around meor not going to want to mentor
me anymore.
And he's like, oh man, tell memore about that.
And he was interested.
I'm like that's different, it'sweird, and there was repeated
instances of that and it was theLord showing me that.
No, there's this other side ofme that you haven't gone to know
yet.
You've seen it in my word.
I'm going to give you a directrelationship with this person so

(57:32):
you can really see this aspectof who I am and that was just so
encouraging.
So now I was able to find thatbalance.
Of the Lord can be justrighteous and wrathful when
needed, but he's also loving,kind and is able to forgive.
So I often share that so peoplecan see do I have anyone in my
life who shares that otheraspect of God that I have been

(57:52):
either ignoring or haven't beenattuned to paying attention to?
so that way when you read God'sword and then you have
experiences in your real lifeabout that attribute being
demonstrated, it starts to makea little bit of sense, and then
a little bit more sense yeah, Ithink I do realize sometimes

(58:13):
demonstrated, it starts to makea little bit of sense and then a
little bit more sense.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
Yeah, yeah, I think I do realize.
Sometimes the issue can just beyeah me accepting it Like am I
worthy of forgiveness?
Am I worthy of mercy?
Right, because, yeah, sometimesI'm like no, not really.
I mean like, yeah, I put myselfin God's shoes, and I'm like,
no, like why, yeah?
Why should I care about this?
This brat you know, I'm thisperson that you know.
Ricardo rejected me for so long.
Why should I care about him?
Right?

(58:38):
and then yeah just in yeah andthen just in general, uh, yeah,
this whole idea of the wrathfulgod.
It's like he's got good reasonto be wrathful and angry, right
um, you know, we, we are prettyterrible and um, yeah I think we
, we deserve it.
Uh, like I've heard it said, youknow, um, god doesn't send you

(59:01):
to hell, it's, it's reallyyourself you send yourself to
hell.
Um, yeah, we, we do we becausea lot of, because all of our
suffering in in some way, um,and yeah, just I guess, yeah,
for me sometimes, yeah, theissue is, um, yeah, I can be.
So I don't know bipolar in a wayabout that, because, yeah, on

(59:23):
the one hand, I'm like, I'm likeuh, you know, oh god, he's so
angry and, and you know, wantsto punish us, and then, yeah,
then I'll flip around like well,yeah, I mean he should want to
punish us, I mean we're so soyeah.
I kind of go back and forth.
I'm like I want, I want god tobe forgiving and all loving.
But then, yeah, some days I'mlike man, yeah he just he needs

(59:44):
to just burn this all to theground because we're we're bad
people and and we do a lot ofbad things.

Speaker 1 (59:51):
So, yeah, it's kind of like um yeah, the fact that
that hasn't happened is kind ofone of those demonstrations of
his mercy and grace, right, likewe take on that mentality of,
yeah, you should and he hasn't.
It's like we don't perceivethat as mercy and grace.
We perceive it as, oh, you'rebeing weak because you haven't
commuted, right what you said.

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Which I think that isn't that kind of the story of
Jonah, right, because like he'skind of avoiding God because God
wants him to go to what's thecity called like Nineveh or
something like that.
Yeah, and it's like, oh, go,preach, preach my word to these
people, which is basically likeNineveh, you guys have been bad
and God is going to punish you.

(01:00:32):
And then Jonah doesn't want todo this and so he keeps trying
to run away and you know he endsup in the big fish or the whale
, whatever however you want tocall it.
But then, yeah, at the end itturns out that, jonah, he's like
you know what I just I didn'twant to deliver, deliver this
message, because I know you'renot going to follow through on
it, like you're always kind oflike you're, oh, I'm gonna, I'm

(01:00:52):
gonna wreak havoc on you guysand punish you, but you never do
you forgive these people andthey don't deserve to be
forgiven.
So sometimes I can relate toJonah.
I'm like yeah if you are um, sojust and all, it's like, yeah,
go punish people, right, butthen yeah, I'm but yeah he's
supposed to be like the mostforgiving, the most tender, the

(01:01:12):
most loving.
So, yeah, I guess maybe thatjustifies it.
Yeah, even though we seeterrible people who deserve
punishment, but still they areGod's children, right, and so he
even.
He loves them just as much ashe loves the rest of us.
But it can be a tough pill toswallow, right, because I'm like
, yeah, I'm not as bad as ashitler, right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
So, yeah, no, that's good man, that's good um.
We're down to kind of our last,uh, little section here,
ricardo and um just kind ofwanted to get your final
thoughts as we've been havingthis conversation.
Have you seen, is thereanything in your relationship

(01:01:57):
with God that has been new foryou?
That's been good that you'relike man.
This has really impacted myrelationship with the Lord.
Whatever that may be, I don'tknow what's happened in the last
couple of years.
Maybe something happenedrecently, but something that
shifted your relationship withGod in a positive way.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
Right, okay, yeah.
So, as you know, I was inMexico recently and my plan was
to move there indefinitely.
Oh, wow um yeah, so as Imentioned uh, yeah, I live with
my mom and her husband and, um,it's good being here, but
obviously it's not like theideal.

(01:02:36):
You know, I would like to havea place of my own.
And then I suddenly I got thisidea like, oh well, I could I
could move to mexico and youknow I can afford to live a lot
better over there, like maybewhat I have here it's not so
much.
But you know, in mexico I couldlive like a king so my idea was
yeah, to move to mexico and justkind of have a change uh yeah,

(01:02:58):
a change of scenery, I guess, um, and yeah, I kind of I also
went with this mentality ofamerica is so prosperous and
yeah, there's like so muchattention put on like wealth and
stuff like that.
And I want to go to mexico,where it's a bit more humble,
right, this third world country,and I sold my car, I sold a lot

(01:03:20):
of my belongings got rid of alot of stuff, yeah donated like
half my clothes to charity.
Um yeah, I just got rid of a lotof stuff and then arrived in
Mexico and realized it wasn'tthe right choice.
You know, and this is somethingthat I had prayed about, you
know, I wanted to have properdiscernment and so I would pray

(01:03:40):
about it constantly, like am Imaking the right decision by
going to Mexico?

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
and.

Speaker 2 (01:03:44):
I really felt in my heart that I was.
And yeah, people, friends,family they would try to
convince me like, no, you're notdoing the right thing, you know
.
Stay where you're at you know,it's a big change.
Like I spoke with my brotherabout it, he's like man, are you
sure you want to do that?
You want to sell your car andmove to Mexico, like that's a
big deal.
You know, maybe just go overthere for like a month and test

(01:04:05):
it out and come back, yeah, butI was like no I really feel it
in my bones and my soul thatthis is the right thing to do.
So yeah, I did I.
I went there and realized itwas not the right decision,
because mexico is a tough placeto be honestly and it is kind of
what I wanted.
I wanted to get rid of mycomforts, um, you know, because

(01:04:26):
I am catholic, uh, that's like abig part of it is like this
asceticism, kind of likerejecting the material world and
like suffering, kind of like.
You know, there's so many monks, right, so many saints that
that we hear about in thecatholic church who, yeah, they,
they kind of get rid of alltheir belongings and go live,
live in a cave and just dedicatethemselves to to the lord, and

(01:04:48):
so I kind of had that mentality.
But then, yeah, just gettingover there, I realized, no,
that's not my path, um, because,yeah, like I, I'm not going to
become a monk.
Um, I've already I just knowthat my place within faith is to
be a lay person and, yeah, like, be faithful but live kind of
like a normal life.
Yeah, um, and I can't really dothat in mexico.

(01:05:10):
It's tough, because I want toget married, I want to have kids
, um, and honestly, in mexicoit's yeah, it's really tough.
Um, just like, really simplethings can be challenging in
mexico.
Um, and yeah, if you don't havegreat connections, great career
, it's, it's really tough.
In america it's a lot easier toget by, honestly, um, and yeah,

(01:05:31):
just thinking about like, like,putting into context, like with
my mother, right, she came froma super poor town in mexico,
went through all the things thatshe did, like, you know, I was
born in canada and then shehelped me get my, my citizenship
here in the us.
Just all this, just for me togo back to mexico.
It didn't make sense, right.
And then, uh, yeah, I met upwith some family members down

(01:05:52):
there and, uh, you know, theyput on a happy face and like, oh
, it's so good to see you, we'reso happy that you're in mexico.
And then, you know, I kind ofopened up to them like yeah
actually, I think I made amistake.
I don't know if you know I'mgonna be able to to live here in
Mexico.
And they're like oh, thank Godyou realize it, because, man, we
all thought you were crazy.
Everybody wants to go fromMexico to America and you're

(01:06:17):
being this contrarian.
You want to do the opposite.
You want to come from America,the land of opportunities, to
Mexico, for what You're justgoing to suffer here.
And these are people who aresuccessful, but they're
successful because they sufferedso much.
They're like for you to get towhere we're at here in Mexico,
you're gonna have to put in somuch work for like decades.

(01:06:37):
And you know, honestly, I'm at apoint in my life, like I'm in
my early 30s, and yeah, I'mthinking about, like the next
generation, right, like I wantto.
I want to have a wife and kids,um, so, yeah, I can't really
afford to do that, really, likeI don't want to get married and
have kids when I'm 50.
So, um, yeah, I was like, okay,yeah, it doesn't make sense for
me to be here, but yeah, Ineeded to go and see it for

(01:06:58):
myself and realize, okay, allthese things that I was
rejecting, like theseopportunities and, you know,
prosperity comforts, they'reactually a blessing and so I
need to appreciate that really,um, and yeah, not just for me,
uh, but yeah, for the nextgeneration, right, because I
want to give my kids the bestlife that they can have.

(01:07:20):
And Mexico's, you know, it'snot the best place for that.
I mean, yeah, it's, it's a verypoor country.
There's a lot of, you know,crime and violence, and I don't
want that for my kids.
So, um, yeah, I I just, I reallyit was an eye-opening
experience and I realized, uh,yeah, I need to appreciate what
I have.
Um, also, at the same time, youknow, be humble and not get too

(01:07:45):
caught up in.
You know, ambition, I, I do.
I've always had an issue with,you know, people who are overly
ambitious and obsessed withwealth, which we we talked about
on on my podcast, um, but, uh,yeah, so, being humble but, at
the same time, yeah, wanting to,um, make a better life for

(01:08:05):
myself and a better life for thenext generation.
So so, yeah, I would say that'sa very positive thing that
happened recently and making merealize that, okay, even though
throughout my life, I haven'thad everything that I want, but
God has taken care of me, givenme a lot of good opportunities,
and I can't just, you know, yeah, be an ungrateful little brat

(01:08:27):
about it and, yeah, I need toneed to, like, take advantage of
the opportunities I have.
So I would say that's a very,uh, important thing that
happened recently and, um, yeah,it makes me very, very grateful
to god, um, for theopportunities that I do have
yeah, no, that's good man,that's rude, it's real powerful,
I know.

Speaker 1 (01:08:44):
Uh, yeah, when you were telling me about just being
there and how long you weregonna be there, I was like was
like, oh cool, taking a longlittle trip, but I didn't
realize it was a journey, youknow.
But but, no, man, that's good,I'm glad you're back, glad
you're still doing what you'redoing, and I know you have a lot
of dreams and aspirations.
It seems to be a lot familyoriented, which is great, you

(01:09:04):
know.
And yeah, man, I, I, as wecontinue to get to know each
other, you know, connecting overtext now with friends, yeah for
sure, yeah, hopefully we cankeep in touch and maybe do more
episodes like this.
But this was great man.
Thank you for sharing your story.
I think a lot of people will beblessed by this.
Just because I don't know wholistens to the podcast right,
you never know who's listeningand who it touches.

(01:09:27):
All of a sudden, you get amessage.
You're like oh man, okay, well,great, you know, I'm glad the
lord used that.
Um.
So thank you for coming on, man, and uh, we'll do it again
sometime of course.

Speaker 2 (01:09:37):
Yeah, I want to keep collaborating.
Thank you so much for having meon man.
Thanks, brother.