October 30, 2024 • 51 mins
Send Me Questions on Attachment
Discover how childhood emotional patterns shape your relationships and spiritual connections as we welcome Dr. Gary Lawrence, the author of "Rejection Junkies," to the God Attachment Healing Podcast. Dr. Lawrence shares his transformative journey from a turbulent upbringing in a non-religious, alcoholic household to finding faith and grace in a Baptist church. His insights into breaking unhealthy attachment patterns are profound, focusing on grace over legalism and the impact of early emotional experiences on adult relationships. This episode promises to equip you with a deeper understanding of these hidden addictions and the pathway to a more fulfilling spiritual life.
Our journey into the intricacies of personal upbringing and its ripple effect on marital dynamics is both enlightening and essential. We uncover the concept of "emotional energy thieves" and the importance of unplugging from draining patterns. Through personal stories, including those of my own marriage and experiences with individuals like Sylvia, we illustrate how childhood patterns can create conflict in adult relationships. Dr. Lawrence sheds light on the parent-child dynamic present in every marriage, stressing the necessity to address underlying emotional issues to nurture a healthier bond.
Embark on a healing journey within marriage, especially those marred by past traumas. Dr. Lawrence’s practical four-step coaching process offers a roadmap to isolate and eradicate negative patterns, fostering individual healing and spiritual connection. Learn to identify root causes rather than symptoms to bring joy and peace into marital relationships. With compelling real-life anecdotes and wisdom from seminars, this episode is a treasure trove of insights for anyone striving to overcome rejection patterns and embrace healthier attachments. Don't miss the chance to explore Dr. Lawrence's groundbreaking work further in "Rejection Junkies".
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My mission is to help you understand your attachment style to learn how you can heal from the pain you’ve experienced in your relationship with God, the church and yourself.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
All right, everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
I'm really excited abouttoday's podcast.
I haven't done an interview inmaybe a couple of months.
I know I've been focusing a lotthe last couple of episodes on
the different attachment stylesand how they complement each
other and how some are not socomplementary.
(00:26):
But today I have a very specialguest, dr Gary Lawrence, and we
are going to be talking aboutpatterns and how to develop
healthy patterns and how tobreak unhealthy patterns in
these types of attachments, bothin our relationship with each
other and our relationship withGod.
And Dr Lawrence, I'm so happythat you're here.
Thank you for coming on theshow.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Oh, sam, it's my joy and honor to be your guest today
, and I certainly hope that webring a great message to your
audience, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
You know, one of the things that, as I was reading
more about your bio and some ofthe things that you've done, is
that you always centereverything back to the
submission to God's word and toChrist.
And I think when we talk aboutattachment is from what you've
been sharing that there's theseunhealthy patterns that we
develop typically in ourchildhood and we carry those
(01:17):
over into our adult lives andthey can become pretty impactful
in our relationships withothers and our relationship with
God.
But, um, before we start intothat, um, why don't you tell the
audience a little bit aboutwhat you do, your background and
maybe even your testimony?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Well, I appreciate that.
Well, uh, you know, I got savedwhen I was 20 and a half years
old and I was raised in a veryuh, non-god-involved home
environment.
Both of my parents were severealcoholics and there was a lot
of immorality between my parents, and so I was not raised with
(01:55):
any understanding whatsoever ofGod Almighty, that there was a
creator that loved me.
And so I started going to aBaptist church in southern
Indiana, and after the fifthSunday of being there hearing
the gospel for the first time, Iwent forward, accepted Christ
as my Savior, and then, threemonths later, that's when I
(02:16):
surrendered to preach to theministry.
Oh, wow, wow.
And now here's the thing I wassaved in a very legalistic
Baptist church.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah, you know legalism says perform, so you
can gain acceptance Now here'sthe thing I was saved in a very
legalistic Baptist church.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, you know legalism says perform so you can
gain acceptance.
Grace says you are accepted,now you can perform.
Well see, after I got saved, Iheard now that you're saved,
stop your smoking.
I said okay, so I quit smoking.
Now that you're saved, stopyour drinking.
Okay, so I quit drinking.
Now that you're saved, stopyour drinking.
Okay, so I quit drinking.
Now that you're saved, give upsex.
And I thought whoa, whoa, nowwait a minute here, okay.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
That's getting too personal.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
And so it was stop this, stop that, stop this, stop
that there was nothing reallypreached to me about God's
unwavering grace, god'sacceptance of me as who I am,
and how the Holy Spirit made mecomplete in Christ.
And so, years later, of course,when I was in Bible college,
(03:11):
that's where I met my wife,sylvia Now Sylvia, a beautiful
young lady, a brown-skinned,olive-skinned brunette,
beautiful eyes, brown eyes, andthe instant I saw her I knew we
was going to get married, andI'll never forget.
I said to my roommate I said,bob, you see that beautiful
(03:32):
brunette over there.
He said yeah what about her.
I said I'm going to ask her outfor a date.
I said, actually I'll probablyend up marrying her.
Well, the truth is, four monthsafter I met her, we got married
now that was 57 years ago.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Okay, congrats, sir.
I mean, that's always, that's ahuge thing.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I mean nowadays, well , we give god the credit for it
100 because here's why and I'mgoing to explain it to the
audience by age eight, 80% ofour emotional patterns are
formed.
By age 18, 100% of ourself-images form Well.
And then you go into your 20s,you go into your 30s and your
(04:14):
40s.
You get a little older, you getmore education, you learn how
to make money, but thosenegative emotional patterns from
your childhood still controlyou and that's why in my book,
Rejection Junkies, I refer to itas the hidden addiction.
See, a lot of addictions thatpeople deal with after they get
saved is something that you seeoutwardly, like smoking tobacco,
(04:37):
drinking alcohol, taking drugs.
But understanding the rejectionand being hooked to the
rejection patterns of yourchildhood is definitely the
addiction that keeps you frombeing connected to the lord.
Yeah, I was raised in anenvironment where my, my value
was based on my performance.
Okay, stop thinking about sam.
(04:59):
I don't know anything aboutyour background, but by the time
you were 18, uh, there was a?
Uh, a data information out thatby the time we were 18 years
old, we've heard the word no40,000 times, as opposed to the
word yes, only 5,000 times.
Now stop and think about yourchildhood.
(05:20):
How many times did you hear yes, sweetheart, you can do that.
Yes, darn, I think you can dothat, you're capable.
No, most of it is negativereinforcement our whole value is
based on our performance, notwho we are, and so when we get
saved, we we take that same lackof relationship with our uh
earthly father and mother intothe relationship with our
(05:44):
heavenly father.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's a huge connection
attachment-wise, and it's veryinteresting that you mentioned
that, growing up Baptist becauseI grew up Southern Baptist as
well and I saw the same thingabout kind of you know, this
legalistic approach and notreally understanding what grace
was, and there's differentdenominations that emphasize
different parts, but there needsto be a balance.
(06:08):
No, oh absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Um, you don't want to abuse god's grace by just going
out and do whatever you want to, uh, but the bottom line is, uh
, I say like this most Most manyChristians have the negative
self-image because they believewhat other people say about them
.
They don't understand that theyare complete in Christ, that
(06:32):
when they got saved, the HolySpirit of God came into them and
dwells in their spirit.
Now, the Holy Spirit of God isperfect.
Is that right?
Absolutely, yep, right, theHoly Spirit is complete.
So then, then, sam, on aspiritual level, you are what?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
A child of God.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
I beg your pardon.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
A child of God.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Okay.
Is the Holy Spirit perfect?
Yes, is the Holy Spiritcomplete?
Yes, does the Holy Spirit dwellin you?
It does.
Then, on a spiritual level, youare what perfect yeah exactly
see.
You almost had a hard timesaying that, didn't you?
Speaker 1 (07:15):
it feels weird to say that.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Well, now, that's because, many years after I was
saved, and in Bible collegeafter I was married, I learned
about the triunity of man.
Man is a triunity we are a body, a soul and a spirit.
Okay, now, on the spirit level,when we accept Christ, we are
complete.
The Bible says in 1 John 4, 13,.
(07:39):
Hereby know we that we dwell inhim and he in us, because he
has given us of his spirit.
Well, how much of his spiritdid he give you, sam?
All of his spirit, 100%.
So then, on a spiritual level,you are completely in Christ, is
that correct?
Yeah, so where's the conflict,why this battle, with all the
(08:02):
old negative habits that we'vehad in our background?
It's in our soul.
Now follow me here.
Okay, our soul is comprised ofthree elements.
Okay, our soul is our emotions.
That's what we feel to be true.
It's our knowledge, it's whatwe know to be true, our mind.
Well, when what we know and howwe feel are in collision, then
(08:25):
our will, our ability to respondto life's circumstances is
damaged, it's impaired.
See, how many Christians do youknow that are suffering from
depression and from worry andfrom anxiety?
Are there a few of them outthere that you're aware of no,
there's a lot.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
I mean, we see it all in the Psalms too.
Absolutely, absolutely no,there's a lot.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
I mean we see it all in the Psalms too, absolutely,
absolutely.
That's because they don'tunderstand their completeness in
Christ and because, for example, a person gets saved Now, after
the same day.
Here's some sermons on servingthe Lord, living for the Lord.
Now, this is going to jar yourgrandma's preserves.
I don't want to offend you Imay confuse your audience, but
(09:06):
I'm going to say your grandma'spreserves.
I don't want to offend you.
I may confuse your audience,but I'm going to say it like
this Every Christian should stopliving for the Lord.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Now, how's that sound ?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Sam, it sounds not good it's anti-Christ, isn't it?
Yeah yeah, it sounds unbiblical.
It sounds wrong unbiblical.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah, right but let me say it like this okay.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Every Christian should stop living for the Lord,
because frustrated Christianslive for the Lord,
spirit-controlled Christians.
Let the Lord live through them.
See, what are the fruits of theSpirit?
Perspective shift Right.
The fruits of the Spirit arelove, joy, peace, long-suffering
(09:49):
, gentleness, goodness, faith,weakness, temperance.
Well see, the bottom line is weneed to learn how to eliminate
that conflict between what weknow and what we feel, so the
Spirit of God can dominate overour soul.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
So what you're saying is that living for the Lord is
actually allowing the Lord towork through you, exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Okay, Exactly 100% the way you said it.
It's just perfect, Joe Sam.
Okay, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
That's actually a really good point, though I like
that you framed it that way.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Well so let me go back to my early years as a
Christian.
Okay, so I'm back in Biblecollege for my second year.
I went to Baptist Bible Collegein Springfield, missouri, and I
think that's where JerryFalwell Sr went to college.
And then, of course, he went toLynchburg, virginia, and
started Liberty College.
But anyway, sylvia and I gotmarried.
(10:51):
Well, sylvia wouldn't even holdhands with me in public.
Ok, there was no display ofaffection at all.
It just simply was not part ofour relationship.
But see, on the other hand, Iwas raised in a very lascivious
environment.
The only time I ever sawaffection was when my father
(11:12):
would hug my mother in a sexualway.
Okay, and so as a teenager, Iconfused affection with sexual
activity.
Now I married this woman who wasraised in an environment where
they were in church every Sunday, every Wednesday, okay, but
they never hugged each other.
She never heard the words Ilove you.
(11:33):
They never showed emotion, theywere never praised, they never
celebrated birthdays, nothingwas ever a celebration in her
life.
So she would withdraw and I'dget angry because she wouldn't
talk to me.
Well, see, I was angry becausethat's an emotional pattern that
(11:54):
was built into me long before Ibecame a Christian, so it was
natural for me to respond withanger and anxiety.
Okay, and when I began tounderstand the triunity of man
and the conflict was not on aspiritual level but was in my
soul, between my mind and myemotions, that's when I began to
(12:17):
get free from the past.
And I say it like this Sam, youcan't get free from the patterns
of the past until you're freefrom the patterns of the past,
until you're free from thepeople of the past yeah, no,
that's that's interesting, drlawrence, because I think one of
the things that's that'sdifficult for people to do is
exactly that's to let go ofpeople of the past.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
But what do you do when you're you're going to be
connected to those people, be itthrough family or just
upbringing, because there's somepeople you're going to continue
connected to those people, beit through family or just
upbringing, because there's somepeople that you're going to
continue to interact with.
It sounds like you're talking alittle bit about boundaries.
Is that what I'm hearing?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Well, more than boundaries, it's unplugging
those emotional energy thieves.
Okay, you asked me what is anemotional energy thief?
Well, just like you plug a lampinto a power socket you stay
plugged into people.
In the past.
Okay, for an example, my wife'smother was in church every
(13:13):
Sunday, but her mother was avery narcissistic, hostile,
abusive woman.
One time she beat Sylvia so badwhen she was nine years old.
Sylvia had to go and hide inthe closet in the master bedroom
because women from the churchwere coming over for ladies'
fellowship.
Now I know there's a lot ofpeople listening to us that can
(13:35):
identify with what I'm talkingabout.
Okay, they're Christian peopleand in their hearts they really
love the Lord as much as a humanbeing can.
But those emotional patterns intheir early years of upbringing
still control them.
So, anyway, so Sylvia, shewould hide from her mother by
(13:55):
withdrawing.
She would hide in the basementunder the stairs to get away
from her mother.
Now, from ages 7 to 12, sylviahad tuberculosis.
She was dying of TB.
That's when her father began tosexually abuse her.
Now put this together, sam.
Here's this little girl beingraised in this strict Baptist
(14:17):
home.
They're in church every Sunday.
She's hearing sin beingpreached about every Sunday.
Her mother is a hostile,abusive human being.
The boy on Sunday, on theLord's day, she preached about
every Sunday.
Her mother is a hostile,abusive human being.
But, boy, on Sunday, on theLord's day, she's a wonderful
Christian.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
She's a wonderful child of God.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Now here's this father that goes to a different
church and he's sexually abusingher.
How is she going to survive?
Well, she's going to withdraw.
She became what I call theescaper.
She became what I call theescaper.
I became what I call thesurvivor.
Okay, there was a lot ofphysical abuse in my background,
(14:52):
but by the time I was 16, Iliterally was physically
fighting back with my father.
So when I got saved I'll neverforget I laughed about this.
After I got saved, I said boy,god's got a lot of work to do
with me, okay, and of course hehas a lot of work to do with all
of us, doesn't he?
(15:13):
Okay?
And so I guess a simple way toput it.
I say it like this Sam, inevery marriage there's a parent
and there's a child.
It has nothing to do withgender, okay, it has nothing to
do with gender, it haseverything to do with
personality.
In every marriage there's asurvivor and there's an escaper.
(15:34):
And when I began, I was amissionary to Canada and went to
Winnipeg, manitoba, canada,started a church, didn't know a
human being there, and just outknocking doors, inviting people
to come to Sunday services.
And in six months we had 170 inour congregation.
In three years we built a450-seat auditorium on five
(15:57):
acres of land and I had a weeklytelevision broadcast Boy.
My ministry was just blossoming.
God had blessed many peoplegetting saved.
But, sam, my marriage wasfalling apart.
My wife was living in fear ofme and I couldn't understand it.
Why don't you talk to me?
Well, why wouldn't she talk tome?
(16:18):
When she was a child?
She learned to withdraw, didn'tshe?
Yeah, so even though she wassaved, she habitually
emotionally had that negativepattern of withdrawing.
I had the negative pattern ofgetting angry and saying why
don't you talk to me?
Well, how can she talk to mewhen, literally,
(16:40):
personality-wise, she marriedher mother?
Does that make sense?
Yeah, yeah, it's reallyinteresting how, when we get
married, sam, we literally marryeverybody in our spouse's
background okay.
And all their negative emotionalpatterns and their positive
(17:01):
patterns come along with them.
See, I tell you I can't tellyou how many people over the
years I've counseled and I wouldask the question when did you
notice that your marriage was introuble?
And this one guy said oh, dr g,I knew a month before we got
married it wasn't going to work.
Okay, and that's because allthe rejection patterns were so
(17:23):
obvious.
But she was the dominant one,he was the fancy one, and so he
went ahead to make her happy andgot married, and that lasted
about three years.
Wow.
So there we are.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Sure, and what you're sharing, dr Lawrence, I mean,
it is making a lot of senseno-transcript couple that says
(18:13):
we've never had an argument inour marriage.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I'll show you two liars.
Okay, everybody has conflicts.
Everybody brings their pastinto the marriage relationship
with them.
Everybody brings their pastinto the marriage relationship
with them.
And I had to learn how to getfree from my father's hostility,
I had to learn how to stopfocusing on outward physical
behavior patterns and startunderstanding my negative
(18:38):
emotional patterns.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
So how did you do that?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
separating from your father and then learning that
this new way of relating withyour emotions, Well, when Sylvia
was going to leave me this wasup in Winnipeg, canada I
promised her if you stay with me, I'm going to find the answer.
If we believe, the Word of Godhas the answer to every problem.
The answer is in the Word ofGod.
(19:02):
Now what happened is Sam.
I called several Christiancounseling clinics and all I
heard from them is well, youjust need to get right with God.
And then others would say youneed to get closer to God.
I got so sick of hearing thatthat is nothing more than false
guilt.
Can I give you two definitionsthat really plague a lot of
Christians?
(19:23):
Yeah, okay, the first one isfalse guilt.
False guilt is anxiety createdfrom a fear of rejection for a
lack of performance.
In other words, if I don'tperform the way you want me to,
then you're going to reject me.
So let me say that again Falseguilt is anxiety created from a
(19:44):
fear of being rejected for alack of performance.
Genuine guilt is a grievingcreated by the Holy Spirit over
a situation.
Now here's what happened.
When Sylvia was going to leaveme, my first response was oh,
what are people in the churchgoing to think about me?
I was more concerned about myprecious reputation than I was
(20:08):
concerned about my wife's mentaland emotional and spiritual
needs.
Well, that's false guilt.
I was more worried about myreputation.
Genuine guilt is a grievingcreated by the Holy Spirit over
a situation.
And when I realized what washappening, I became grievous.
(20:29):
I became grievously strickenabout my marriage relationship
and our emotional needs.
Okay, and so I got into theWord of God and I discovered
Hebrews, chapter 12, verse 15.
This is the underlying problem.
Okay, this is the poison in thecup.
(20:51):
And you know, if you drink acup of poison and wait for the
other person to die, it's notgoing to work.
So here's the cup of poisonmany Christians drink from and
they're not even aware of it.
Hebrews, chapter 12, verse 15.
It says looking diligently lestany person fail or miss out on
(21:12):
the grace of God, lest any rootof bitterness springing up
trouble you and thereby many bedefiled.
The root of bitterness does twothings, Sam it troubles the
individual and it defiles many.
Okay, Now let me say that again.
The root bitterness does twothings it troubles the
(21:33):
individual and defiles many.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
What do you mean by that second part?
It defiles many.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Well, for an example, my father's drunkenness and
anger his anger towards me beganto become my emotional response
.
Would you say I was defiled?
Yeah, Okay, that's what I meanby it.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
You can't play in the dirt without getting dirty.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
You can't be raised in an environment without being
under the control of all theemotional upheaval that goes on
in that environment.
Now, for example, I counseled alady and her husband and she
said he never tells me he lovesme, he never hugs me, he never
(22:25):
kisses me, he never shows anykind of emotion at all.
Well, as I took his lifehistory, I began to understand
there's two things that man lostin his childhood he lost his
voice and his choice he had novoice.
He could not express hisemotions, he was not allowed to.
His mother would say you shutup and listen to me, Okay.
(22:49):
His dad would say you shut upand listen to me, Okay.
His dad would say you be quiet.
Children are to be seen, notheard.
So he lost his voice and helost his choice.
He was never allowed to make adecision on his own behalf
without his mother or fatherapproving of it.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
So guess what?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
When he got married, he married his mother's
personality.
It happens all the time yeah,yeah, and what?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
so what do you tell them?
Because I mean, if they come inwith that and you know that
already, before they even getmarried, um, I'm curious how you
would do the pre-maritalcounseling oh, I do, I, I tell
you, I never did much premaritalcounseling.
Really, I mean, I feel likethat would be such a huge
benefit.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Oh, no, not at all.
No, not at all.
You know why.
They haven't suffered enough.
Okay, what?
Speaker 3 (23:42):
do you mean?
Well, the bottom line is, theydon't see what the problem is
until after they get married,okay, so is there a way to know
beforehand?
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Pardon.
Is there a way for them to knowbeforehand?
I know you mentioned theyhaven't suffered enough, but
Well right.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Well how can I?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
explain it.
The bottom line is you don'tappreciate the surgeon's knife
until he gets rid of the cancerfor you.
That's good, yeah, yeah.
You, that's good, yeah, okay,that's the best way I can
explain it.
Before I got married, I didn'tneed premarital counseling.
I knew what I was doing.
God was my savior.
I was his son.
I had the word of God.
(24:20):
I had the Holy Spirit in mylife.
I'm going to be a good husbandbut, unbeknownst to me, I became
an abusive husband.
I became a hostile husband.
I became a husband that didn'tlisten.
Okay, instead of being gentleand peaceful and patient in my
(24:41):
marriage relationship, I wasdemanding.
Well, I became her mother again.
Okay.
Now, I didn't find out abouther sexual abuse until three
months after we were married.
I was out preaching for theweekend and I came back to our
apartment.
You know, I was 22 years old.
I wanted to come home to mywife.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
And.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I took her shower and got in bed and snuggled up to
her and hugged her and startedto caress her and Sam, she
literally jumped out of bed sofast she slammed her head
against the wall and for thenext four hours she sat there
with her knees drawn up to herchest, saying you can't touch me
like that.
My daddy told me don't ever letanother man touch me the way he
(25:24):
did.
Don't tell my daddy what you'redoing to me.
Another man touch me the way hedid.
Don't tell my daddy what you'redoing to me.
For four hours, Sam now, that'sback when I was a young kid 22
years old.
Back in those days we calledthat a nervous breakdown right,
Okay today we call PTSD.
Okay, well, see now what I beganto realize as I got into the
(25:46):
word and started understandinghow bitterness defiles a person.
I began to understand that, nomatter who she married, he also
sexually abused her husband, see, because his sexual abuse in
(26:08):
her young life made her afraidof sex, and so that poisoned our
marriage relationship on theintimate level, and so I became
the victim of the second order,and so all I had to go back to
we've got to unplug thoseemotional energy thieves.
So I have a four-step processwith my coaching.
(26:29):
Okay, can I ask you a question?
Speaker 1 (26:32):
dr lawrence sure, yeah, I wonder you know you
mentioned that, for for her youkind of became the her mother in
personality wise, yeah what didshe become to you?
Speaker 2 (26:47):
She became a zero.
She was a non-entity becauseboth of my parents were very
dominant and very hostile.
Okay, they were always in apower struggle.
Okay, I had never known someoneso passive, so quiet, so
fearful, and so I just left heralone.
I went ahead and lived my lifewithout her, gotcha, if it
(27:07):
wasn't for the ministry.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
I went ahead and lived my life without her.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
If it wasn't for the ministry, I wouldn't have had
any purpose to live, and thathappens in a lot of preachers'
marriages.
When I traveled the US raisingsupport for our mission in
Canada, I met a lot of pastorsand their wives whose marriages
were in dire, dire straits and,as a matter of fact, that's what
(27:31):
led us to opening up ourcounseling ministry in
albuquerque, new mexico.
Uh, many pastors and theirwives would fly to canada.
We call it the cariboucounseling clinic.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Okay, because I built the relationship with these
pastors and their wives yeahyeah, okay yeah I was just
curious of what that dynamic was, because you're both searching
for something and somethingfeels familiar and I was just
wondering what that was for youwell, and you I love the way you
just said we were bothsearching for something.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
We were.
We thought marriage was goingto be the ultimate experience of
joy and fulfillment, but now,once you, get free from the past
, you realize the real joy andfulfillment.
But now, once you get free fromthe past, you realize the real
joy and fulfillment is in yourconnection to the Lord, our
Heavenly Father, and then youbring that joy and that love and
(28:19):
that peace that he gives youand only he can give you that
and you bring that into themarriage relationship.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
So it sounds like a lot of individual work that the
Lord does in repairing thoseemotional patterns.
Once that's healed, you kind ofbring that into the
relationship.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Absolutely, Absolutely.
I started to tell you I havefour steps in my coaching.
Number one I want to identifythe underlying problem, not
treat the symptom.
Okay.
Hostility, depression, anxiety,fear, feelings of worthlessness
, a lack of self-image those areall just symptoms.
(28:57):
I want to identify theunderlying problem.
As we do that, we're going toisolate the underlying problem.
I spend a four-hour sessionwith my client, taking a life
history as much as I can in fourhours, but I have a series of
88 questions I ask my clientsand that would pretty well help
(29:18):
me identify the negativeemotional patterns that are
still controlling them.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
So after we identify, the problem.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Isolate the problem.
My third goal is we're going toeliminate the problem.
I put that through the processof what I call the emotional
surgery and if you buy my bookRejection Junkies, you'll be
able to read about it, sam, okay, definitely.
The emotional surgery.
It's a very painful process,but you get free from that root
(29:46):
of bitterness.
Now let me use an example ofemotional bondage.
I preached in Santa Fe, newMexico, at a pastor's conference
, and there was a young ladythere and she was about in her
late 20s and after the servicewas over she came up to me and
she said, dr G, I don't know ifyou appreciate this or not, but
(30:09):
I I may list all the words youmispronounced and I thought,
okay, I said, well, I reallyappreciate that, thank you.
And she started, uh, speakingvery negatively about other
preachers that she had heard.
And now, remember, she justheard me preach and I
mispronounced 28 words, right,so now I'm being corrected by
(30:31):
her.
So I just kind of interruptedher and I said can I ask you a
question?
She said, yes, absolutely.
And I said what was yourrelationship like with your
father?
She said, oh, my father.
He was a nasty man.
He was a hateful, hostile,angry man.
I grew up, I never wanted to belike him, and so I looked at
(30:52):
her very quietly.
I said well, how would you feelif I told you that you become
an exact duplicate of yourfather?
And she literally blew up she's.
I'm nothing like him he's angryhe's, he's vulgar he nasty, he's
so demanding, he's verycritical.
And I said well, you don'trealize this, but because of
(31:15):
your hostile feelings towardsyour father, towards your
constant repeating all of hisweaknesses, you have developed
what we call an emotional focus,and that emotional focus has
literally become overwhelming inyour life.
You become just like yourfather and Sam.
She literally went from angerand hostility to tears.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Yeah, I can see that.
Yeah, that's powerful, dr G,that's powerful, you know.
It's interesting because,obviously, with all the years of
experience that you have,you're able to identify these
things.
Now you know, after even goingthrough your own process and
journey.
You know for the audience, Ithink you've done a good job of
(31:57):
helping them identify theunhealthy patterns.
And what are healthy patterns?
Because I think people think ofhealthy patterns as okay, I
need to, you know, text myspouse every hour, every time,
or I need to hug my childrenmore, or I need to be.
You know, I need to performbetter in this other area with
(32:18):
my job.
So what are healthy patterns inyour counseling or guidance?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
That's the fourth stage of my coaching Okay.
As we identify, isolate andeliminate the problem.
My fourth goal is to rebuildthe relationship, and this is
where I teach men how to lovetheir wives like Christ loved
the church.
You know we hear so much ofwomen.
Their wives need to submitthemselves unto their own
husbands.
Right, but the fact is, beforethat, the Bible says husbands,
(32:50):
love your wives as Christ lovedthe church and gave himself for
it.
Now remember, I was thedominant personality, sylvia was
the passive personality.
So what was the first pattern Ibegan to break after I got free
from my bitterness?
I learned how to becomesubmissive to her needs.
When the husband learned how tobecome submissive to her needs,
when the husband learns how tobe submissive to his wife's
(33:12):
needs, that's when the marriagecan become healthy.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
And I believe.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I believe the responsibility is totally 100%
on the husband's shoulders.
Now, that doesn't mean that youpurposely destroy marriage.
Okay, we got into marriage.
My dad never taught me how tolove a wife.
My dad never taught me how topraise a wife or how to build
her up, how to be positive.
(33:39):
Now, he did teach me how tocurse a wife.
He did teach me how to yell ata wife, okay, but until I
learned how to stop drinking thepoison of bitterness and get
free from the past, I was notable to concentrate on creating
the positive relationship in mymarriage and dr g when you say
(34:00):
when I stopped drinking, thepoison of bitterness, what?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
what was the bitterness?
What was the thought orreaction that you were having
about that?
Did you have like thoughtsabout your dad, like I can't
believe my dad did, that's mymom.
What was going on?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Well, that's a great question, Sam.
You know, bitterness is not auser-friendly word, right?
You hear that definition ofwebsites it's not user-friendly.
Well, bitterness is notuser-friendly.
People don't like to say yeah,I'm bitter, you know, because
bitterness is not a friendlyword.
Well, bitterness is so manyother things and so I've learned
(34:32):
to give it differentdefinitions.
For example, bitterness is aninward resentment.
You show me someone orsomething you have an inward
resentment towards and you stillcarry that resentment.
I'll show you a root ofbitterness.
I'll show you a root ofbitterness.
Okay, bitterness is a woundedspirit.
Let me give you an example.
(34:53):
Our marriage really made amajor turn when Sylvia and I
were in Albuquerque, new Mexico,and I had even started my
counseling practice then.
And Sam, you know what it'slike being a counselor and
trying to work on your ownissues.
Okay, and this was very youngin our counseling ministry.
But anyway, I said, sylvia,I've decided I'm going to file
(35:16):
for divorce.
I'm not angry at you, I'm notgoing to get mad at you anymore,
I'm just filing for divorce.
She looked at me why, why not?
Why would you do that, sylvia?
I cannot live with anemotionally crippled woman.
The rest of my life I will notdo that to myself.
And then here's what she said,but Gary, I'm not like you and I
(35:38):
said what do you mean?
you're not like me Because allyou do is yell and scream and
you're mad all the time.
And I said I'm guilty of that,you're absolutely right, okay.
Well, see, she was focusing onmy emotional pattern of
hostility.
I was focusing on her emotionalpattern of sex is not something
to be enjoyed.
So there was two differentareas of our marriage.
(36:00):
And I said, Celia, you're verybitter.
She said I'm not bitter, I'mnothing like you.
I said, honey, bitterness isnot just something sour that you
eat.
Bitterness is an inwardresentment.
Bitterness is a wounded spirit,and when your father sexually
abused you as a little girl, hewounded your spirit, right.
(36:23):
And when she heard me say that,literally Sam, she burst out
crying.
Yeah, she just wept and weptand finally she understood that
she was bitter towards herfather.
So there's a root of bitterness.
Okay, bitterness is an anxiety.
You show me someone that comesinto your life, into your
(36:46):
presence, that creates anxiety.
I'll show you someone you havea root of bitterness towards.
Bitterness is a sense ofavoidance.
You show me someone you avoidbeing with.
I'll show you someone you're inbondage through bitterness
towards.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Bitterness is a sense of abandonment.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
You show me someone who you feel abandoned you and
I'll show you someone you have asense of abandonment.
You show me someone who youfeel abandoned you and I'll show
you someone you have a root tobitterness towards.
Now, here's the bottom line.
You've got many different rootsof bitterness, don't you?
And when you have all thesedifferent roots of bitterness,
how much control do you haveover your own life?
None, no, not much at all.
(37:28):
That's why you see so manyChristian people leave the
church.
They're in bondage tobitterness.
That's why you see so manyChristian people get divorced.
They're in bondage tobitterness.
I think you might know this,sam, but did you know the
divorce rate among Christianpeople is higher than the
divorce rate among secularpeople?
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, and I have some thoughts about that.
You know, like people whodescribe themselves or, you know
, define themselves as Christianbut aren't really like.
It seems to be like the popularterm, so I have some, some
hesitancy with using that but, Imean, it's basically half, it's
almost basically.
You know, I think it thingslike 42, 44%, which is still
high.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yeah, yeah, and I agree with what you're saying.
But there's a lot, a lot ofChristian people who are saved.
They're a child of God.
They are already connected toGod because the Holy Spirit
dwells in them.
Correct, yeah?
Speaker 3 (38:24):
That will never change.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
But those emotional patterns from the past still
control them.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
And Dr G if you can, I'd love you to elaborate on
this aspect.
Like God gave us emotions, Ithink, for both of us growing up
in a Baptist home or Baptist Ididn't grow up in a Baptist home
, no.
I'm sorry, Like under thatBaptist teaching when you got
saved right.
Yeah, Right yeah, I think one ofthe things that are taught is
(38:54):
that you need to change yourthinking, but there's not really
a lot of attention given to theemotion, and that's what we're
talking about right now, likethese emotional bonds, and that
gave us emotions.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
So I think that's kind of what you're touching on.
Is you know what were thepurpose of the emotions?
If they're creating these bonds, right, yeah.
Well, as you think so, are youemotionally Okay?
If you think that someone'sgoing to hurt you emotionally,
you're going to have fear.
If you think that you can do itand you're going to do a great
job, you have that emotion ofpride, okay.
It all comes back tounderstanding.
You've got to eliminate thatconflict between what you know
(39:35):
and how you feel.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
For example, I know.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
God loves me.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
I don't feel like God loves me.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Well, I know I'm successful.
I don't feel like I'msuccessful.
Okay, I know I can make ithappen.
I don't feel like I can make ithappen, so as long as what you
know and how you feel are inconflict, then your will, your
ability to respond to lastcircumstances is damaged and
instead of having love, joy andpeace, long-suffering the fruits
(40:03):
of the spirit, you have thefruits of the flesh, which is
feelings of insecurity, feelingsof inadequacy.
And these are all emotionsfeelings of anxiety, feelings of
dependency and always dependingon other people, and so on, so
on, so on.
It's like a tsunami of emotionsthat control you.
(40:25):
Yeah, that's a good way toemotions that control you.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to put it, sir, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Yeah, and you know when I would hold seminars, sam,
I would ask this question.
I had what I used to call theuniversity of successful living
and I would say how many of you,about six months after you got
saved, I mean about six monthsafter you got married how many
of you looked over at thatperson in bed next to you and
(40:51):
thought how did I end up in bedwith this person?
Okay, because many, many timesand if you've counseled people,
sam, you've heard this manytimes after they get married,
about six months down the road,they say you're not the same
person.
I married.
What happened?
Okay?
(41:15):
Married.
About six months down the road,they say you're not the same
person.
I'm married.
What happened?
Okay, because we're always onour best behavior before we get
married.
We're always doing our best tomake sure the other person's
comfortable with us.
Yeah, and then we get married,and then the real emotional
patterns start floating to thesurface and how do you, how do
you guide people through thatprocess, sir?
Speaker 1 (41:28):
I think everyone knows that that's what happens.
They know that they're going tohave maybe a hard time in the
first or second year.
But I mean, how do you preparethem for that?
Do they just have to go throughthat process and learn how to
face their emotions?
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Oh, I'm so glad you said that, sam.
Emotions.
Oh I'm so glad you said that,sam.
Yeah, yeah, everybody does notknow.
That's what's going to happen,okay, everybody lives in a
fantasy world, what theirmarriage is going to be like
okay, even if they acknowledgeit be, even if they acknowledge
it beforehand yeah, oh yeah, ohyeah, and and then, and then
they're covered up with.
(42:04):
Well, I didn't think it'd be sobad, that's true, yeah, well, I
didn't think it would actuallylead to this.
Okay, well, I thought I couldput up with it as long as he, or
as long as she, didn't make itany worse.
Okay, it's kind of like they'retaking this drug that you sniff
.
It's called unbelief.
They want to believe the bestabout the person they're
(42:25):
marrying, okay, and so there aremany times that couples have
come to me for coaching and Irefuse to accept them because
they're always blaming theirmate for everything that's
happening.
Okay, and they're so angry andso bitter towards their mate.
(42:47):
I know they're not ready yet,angry and so bitter towards
their mate.
I know they're not ready yet,they haven't suffered enough yet
to say I'm ready to look in themirror of reality and deal with
my own issues.
I believe it's all about heart.
Every marriage and I want tosay this very clearly every
marriage can become a healthy,spirit-controlled marriage
relationship as long as one mateis willing to give free
(43:09):
mentally and emotionally fromthe past and become submissive
to the leadership of the HolySpirit.
I believe that with all myheart.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Yeah, yeah, and, dr G , I know there's going to be
some people who are listeningand I think from their
perspective they may feel like,well, I did give 100%, I felt
like I was invested and I feltlike I let go as much as I could
, but the other person will, andmaybe they don't even place the
blame on the other person, butthey themselves feel like they
did all they could.
What do you say to those people?
Speaker 2 (43:40):
I say they need to look in the mirror again, find
out who they're talking about.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
You're not looking hard enough in the mirror.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Yeah, yeah, you know, and and I I do my best to be
very kind and very patient withpeople?
yeah, but let me give you anexample uh here, a couple came
to me this was many years agoand this is a perfect example
and he was involved in anextramarital affair and they
were in my office and he satthere and he denied it totally,
(44:09):
and so I asked her to step outand sit in the reception area.
I said I want to talk to yourhusband alone, and so I asked
him.
After she closed the door, Isaid I'm going to ask you a
question, and when I ask you thequestion, I don't want you to
look at the ceiling or at thewall or at the floor.
I want you to look me in theeyes and answer me.
You have to understand.
You're not in trouble with me.
(44:30):
I'm not mad at you.
I don't care if you're havingan affair.
I don't care if you're having10 affairs, because your affairs
are not the issue.
Tell me who you're having anaffair with.
He immediately looked down atthe floor.
I said whoa, whoa, he'ssupposed to look me in the eyes.
And so he looked me in the eyesand he told me who it was.
(44:51):
And it just happened.
I knew who that woman was and Isaid okay.
I said are you ready to getfree from the past?
And he looked at me and saidwell, will I have to give up the
affair?
I said oh no, no, no, no, Idon't want you to give up the
affair at all.
He said are you a Christiancounselor?
And I said oh yeah, I'm aChristian counselor.
(45:15):
And I said the bottom line isyou worked very hard to have
this affair.
You've told many, many lies,you spent a lot of money
covering it up.
You put a lot of mental andemotional energy into having
this affair.
But what you have to realize isthe affair is not your problem,
that's just a symptom.
If I can position you to getfree from your past, we can
(45:38):
break the symptom.
We can eliminate this patternonce and for all.
Wow See, I didn't condemn him.
I didn't say change yourbehavior, you child.
See, I never focus on aperson's behavior.
Behavior is what people see youdo.
Character is what God knows youto be.
(45:58):
That's where you're connectedwith God.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Wow, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very, very powerful,
makes a lot of sense, you know,pushing people to look deeper
than the surface, deeper thanthe behavior.
Right, right, right.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Wow, I'll tell you what.
I'd love for you because I'dlove to get some input.
If you could go to my website,rejectionjunkiescom, junkiescom,
and for the sake of youraudience, that's rejection
junkies, that's spelled j-u-n.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
K-i-e-s, rejection junkiescom, and you can order a
copy of my book there.
Absolutely no, dr g.
I mean one of the things that Ienjoy doing.
You know, it's um.
It's kind of like, you know,when you read a book or you
watch a movie and you like themovie so much that you don't
want to read the book becausethe details are going to be like
oh, oh man, it's not what Ithought, right.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
After this conversation, definitely, and I
want to encourage my my audienceas well, because I'm I don't
just take any interview, dr G,so I really try to look at.
Ok, what did they talk about?
I think there was a clip, avideo clip, that you had in the
email and looked it up.
I'm like I like this.
(47:09):
And then there was somethingabout your tone when we spoke
over the phone.
There was just something that Ifelt that was different and
good, and I really appreciatethis conversation and the fact
that you've kept it focused onscripture, focused on Christ,
and I think that's what ouraudience needs.
So I really do want to thankyou, dr G, and I will be getting
the book.
I really do want to thank you,dr G, and I will be getting the
book.
I promise you and I will letyou know how it goes.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
I'll give you a review.
I really appreciate that, sam.
Well, there's two tools that Idepend on in my coaching.
Number one is the ministry ofthe Holy Spirit.
Number two is the ministry ofGod's Word.
Okay, the Word of God is like asword, it's like a sharp knife.
It cuts into the inner part ofman, it gets into our soul, it
(47:50):
gets into our emotions and itfeeds us.
And it separates the evil fromthe good, it separates the
bitter from the sweet.
And you know, the Bible says,and Jesus says himself, that
sweet water and bitter watercan't flow through the same
fountain.
Well, if you've got roots ofbitterness controlling you from
(48:11):
the past, how can you enjoysweetness in the present
relationship?
And if you're not going to befree to enjoy the present, how
are you going to build yourfuture?
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
And let me share this for the Savior listeners Sam, I
had a stroke in January of 21.
And that brought everything toa screeching halt for me.
I was in Mayo Hospital forthree days and I went to rehab
for seven days.
And I'll never forget, outsideof my double bedroom window at
(48:45):
the rehab hospital, there was adouble window in the patio out
there with a brick wall, and I'mlaying there in bed and I'm
looking at that brick wall.
I said, lord, there's anotherwall in my life and I've got to
find some way to get over it oraround it, and you're going to
have to help me.
And so, when I got home fromrehab, my wife, my son Kevin,
(49:08):
said Dad, you need to updateyour book Rejection Junkies.
And so that was part of mycognitive therapy, and so we
updated.
It became the bestseller withina week on Amazon.
Then I began to do podcastinterviews, and so I know I'm in
the last season of my life.
I just turned 80, october the4th.
(49:29):
Okay, so I know I'm in the lastseason of my life, but I read
one time that President JimmyCarter, someone asked him
President Carter, why is it youspent the last three decades of
your life with Humanity forHabitat or Habitat for Humanity.
And I thought this was reallyawesome.
(49:50):
Jimmy Carter said well, myfaith demands that I do
everything I can for everybody Ican, any way I can, for as long
as I can.
And I thought, okay, lord, andI figured I've got a good five
to 10 years of productivity leftyet, so I'm just going to coach
people and do my best to helppeople enjoy a quality of life
(50:11):
that Jesus died for.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
I love it, sir.
That's so awesome and again,I'm just so thankful that you
agreed to come on the show andhonestly, I'd love to have you
on again if you're open to it.
I feel like we go so much deeperin talking about these
different aspects of ouremotional backgrounds, because
that is a place because I thinkyou would agree with this that
if we're doing, sometimes goduses people in our lives to help
(50:36):
us see him differently andsometimes he does something in
our lives that helps us seepeople around us differently and
, and I think because of thoseemotional um bonds and patterns
that we have, I think if webreak some of them it could shed
some light on those differentrelationships.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
I would love that, sam, I really would.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
I'm all about building relationships, so you
can get a copy of my book andlet's talk in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Okay, Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Thank you so much, dr G Sam thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
It's been my honor.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
Absolutely, and guys remember RejectionJ conversation
.
Oh, sam, thank you so much,it's been my honor.
Absolutely, and guys rememberrejection junkiescom.
And he also has his book onamazon.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
If you're free to purchase it, I'll put the link
in the bio as well by the way,sam, before we go, when they go
to my website, on the home pageit says are you a rejection
junkie?
There's a quiz they can take.
If they submit it, then I willrespond to them and I will give
them, absolutely no cost, a free30-minute evaluation of the
results.
Speaker 3 (51:34):
They can find out they're a rejection junkie.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Okay, awesome, love that.
Okay, yeah.
So I hope you guys take note ofthat Again.
I'll put this information inthe description and, guys, thank
you for tuning in.
Please share this with yourfriends and family, such an
important topic and great wisdomfrom from dr Gary Lawrence.
Thank you, sir.
All right, everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
I'm really excited abouttoday's podcast.
I haven't done an interview inmaybe a couple of months.
I know I've been focusing a lotthe last couple of episodes on
the different attachment stylesand how they complement each
other and how some are not socomplementary.
(00:26):
But today I have a very specialguest, dr Gary Lawrence, and we
are going to be talking aboutpatterns and how to develop
healthy patterns and how tobreak unhealthy patterns in
these types of attachments, bothin our relationship with each
other and our relationship withGod.
And Dr Lawrence, I'm so happythat you're here.
Thank you for coming on theshow.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Oh, sam, it's my joy and honor to be your guest today
, and I certainly hope that webring a great message to your
audience, absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
You know, one of the things that, as I was reading
more about your bio and some ofthe things that you've done, is
that you always centereverything back to the
submission to God's word and toChrist.
And I think when we talk aboutattachment is from what you've
been sharing that there's theseunhealthy patterns that we
develop typically in ourchildhood and we carry those
(01:17):
over into our adult lives andthey can become pretty impactful
in our relationships withothers and our relationship with
God.
But, um, before we start intothat, um, why don't you tell the
audience a little bit aboutwhat you do, your background and
maybe even your testimony?
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Well, I appreciate that.
Well, uh, you know, I got savedwhen I was 20 and a half years
old and I was raised in a veryuh, non-god-involved home
environment.
Both of my parents were severealcoholics and there was a lot
of immorality between my parents, and so I was not raised with
(01:55):
any understanding whatsoever ofGod Almighty, that there was a
creator that loved me.
And so I started going to aBaptist church in southern
Indiana, and after the fifthSunday of being there hearing
the gospel for the first time, Iwent forward, accepted Christ
as my Savior, and then, threemonths later, that's when I
(02:16):
surrendered to preach to theministry.
Oh, wow, wow.
And now here's the thing I wassaved in a very legalistic
Baptist church.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah, you know legalism says perform, so you
can gain acceptance Now here'sthe thing I was saved in a very
legalistic Baptist church.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Yeah, you know legalism says perform so you can
gain acceptance.
Grace says you are accepted,now you can perform.
Well see, after I got saved, Iheard now that you're saved,
stop your smoking.
I said okay, so I quit smoking.
Now that you're saved, stopyour drinking.
Okay, so I quit drinking.
Now that you're saved, stopyour drinking.
Okay, so I quit drinking.
Now that you're saved, give upsex.
And I thought whoa, whoa, nowwait a minute here, okay.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
That's getting too personal.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
And so it was stop this, stop that, stop this, stop
that there was nothing reallypreached to me about God's
unwavering grace, god'sacceptance of me as who I am,
and how the Holy Spirit made mecomplete in Christ.
And so, years later, of course,when I was in Bible college,
(03:11):
that's where I met my wife,sylvia Now Sylvia, a beautiful
young lady, a brown-skinned,olive-skinned brunette,
beautiful eyes, brown eyes, andthe instant I saw her I knew we
was going to get married, andI'll never forget.
I said to my roommate I said,bob, you see that beautiful
(03:32):
brunette over there.
He said yeah what about her.
I said I'm going to ask her outfor a date.
I said, actually I'll probablyend up marrying her.
Well, the truth is, four monthsafter I met her, we got married
now that was 57 years ago.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Okay, congrats, sir.
I mean, that's always, that's ahuge thing.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I mean nowadays, well , we give god the credit for it
100 because here's why and I'mgoing to explain it to the
audience by age eight, 80% ofour emotional patterns are
formed.
By age 18, 100% of ourself-images form Well.
And then you go into your 20s,you go into your 30s and your
(04:14):
40s.
You get a little older, you getmore education, you learn how
to make money, but thosenegative emotional patterns from
your childhood still controlyou and that's why in my book,
Rejection Junkies, I refer to itas the hidden addiction.
See, a lot of addictions thatpeople deal with after they get
saved is something that you seeoutwardly, like smoking tobacco,
(04:37):
drinking alcohol, taking drugs.
But understanding the rejectionand being hooked to the
rejection patterns of yourchildhood is definitely the
addiction that keeps you frombeing connected to the lord.
Yeah, I was raised in anenvironment where my, my value
was based on my performance.
Okay, stop thinking about sam.
(04:59):
I don't know anything aboutyour background, but by the time
you were 18, uh, there was a?
Uh, a data information out thatby the time we were 18 years
old, we've heard the word no40,000 times, as opposed to the
word yes, only 5,000 times.
Now stop and think about yourchildhood.
(05:20):
How many times did you hear yes, sweetheart, you can do that.
Yes, darn, I think you can dothat, you're capable.
No, most of it is negativereinforcement our whole value is
based on our performance, notwho we are, and so when we get
saved, we we take that same lackof relationship with our uh
earthly father and mother intothe relationship with our
(05:44):
heavenly father.
Does that make sense?
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, that's a huge connection
attachment-wise, and it's veryinteresting that you mentioned
that, growing up Baptist becauseI grew up Southern Baptist as
well and I saw the same thingabout kind of you know, this
legalistic approach and notreally understanding what grace
was, and there's differentdenominations that emphasize
different parts, but there needsto be a balance.
(06:08):
No, oh absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Um, you don't want to abuse god's grace by just going
out and do whatever you want to, uh, but the bottom line is, uh
, I say like this most Most manyChristians have the negative
self-image because they believewhat other people say about them
.
They don't understand that theyare complete in Christ, that
(06:32):
when they got saved, the HolySpirit of God came into them and
dwells in their spirit.
Now, the Holy Spirit of God isperfect.
Is that right?
Absolutely, yep, right, theHoly Spirit is complete.
So then, then, sam, on aspiritual level, you are what?
Speaker 1 (06:49):
A child of God.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
I beg your pardon.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
A child of God.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Okay.
Is the Holy Spirit perfect?
Yes, is the Holy Spiritcomplete?
Yes, does the Holy Spirit dwellin you?
It does.
Then, on a spiritual level, youare what perfect yeah exactly
see.
You almost had a hard timesaying that, didn't you?
Speaker 1 (07:15):
it feels weird to say that.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
Well, now, that's because, many years after I was
saved, and in Bible collegeafter I was married, I learned
about the triunity of man.
Man is a triunity we are a body, a soul and a spirit.
Okay, now, on the spirit level,when we accept Christ, we are
complete.
The Bible says in 1 John 4, 13,.
(07:39):
Hereby know we that we dwell inhim and he in us, because he
has given us of his spirit.
Well, how much of his spiritdid he give you, sam?
All of his spirit, 100%.
So then, on a spiritual level,you are completely in Christ, is
that correct?
Yeah, so where's the conflict,why this battle, with all the
(08:02):
old negative habits that we'vehad in our background?
It's in our soul.
Now follow me here.
Okay, our soul is comprised ofthree elements.
Okay, our soul is our emotions.
That's what we feel to be true.
It's our knowledge, it's whatwe know to be true, our mind.
Well, when what we know and howwe feel are in collision, then
(08:25):
our will, our ability to respondto life's circumstances is
damaged, it's impaired.
See, how many Christians do youknow that are suffering from
depression and from worry andfrom anxiety?
Are there a few of them outthere that you're aware of no,
there's a lot.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
I mean, we see it all in the Psalms too.
Absolutely, absolutely no,there's a lot.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
I mean we see it all in the Psalms too, absolutely,
absolutely.
That's because they don'tunderstand their completeness in
Christ and because, for example, a person gets saved Now, after
the same day.
Here's some sermons on servingthe Lord, living for the Lord.
Now, this is going to jar yourgrandma's preserves.
I don't want to offend you Imay confuse your audience, but
(09:06):
I'm going to say your grandma'spreserves.
I don't want to offend you.
I may confuse your audience,but I'm going to say it like
this Every Christian should stopliving for the Lord.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Now, how's that sound ?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Sam, it sounds not good it's anti-Christ, isn't it?
Yeah yeah, it sounds unbiblical.
It sounds wrong unbiblical.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Yeah, right but let me say it like this okay.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Every Christian should stop living for the Lord,
because frustrated Christianslive for the Lord,
spirit-controlled Christians.
Let the Lord live through them.
See, what are the fruits of theSpirit?
Perspective shift Right.
The fruits of the Spirit arelove, joy, peace, long-suffering
(09:49):
, gentleness, goodness, faith,weakness, temperance.
Well see, the bottom line is weneed to learn how to eliminate
that conflict between what weknow and what we feel, so the
Spirit of God can dominate overour soul.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
So what you're saying is that living for the Lord is
actually allowing the Lord towork through you, exactly.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Okay, Exactly 100% the way you said it.
It's just perfect, Joe Sam.
Okay, Thank you.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
That's actually a really good point, though I like
that you framed it that way.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Well so let me go back to my early years as a
Christian.
Okay, so I'm back in Biblecollege for my second year.
I went to Baptist Bible Collegein Springfield, missouri, and I
think that's where JerryFalwell Sr went to college.
And then, of course, he went toLynchburg, virginia, and
started Liberty College.
But anyway, sylvia and I gotmarried.
(10:51):
Well, sylvia wouldn't even holdhands with me in public.
Ok, there was no display ofaffection at all.
It just simply was not part ofour relationship.
But see, on the other hand, Iwas raised in a very lascivious
environment.
The only time I ever sawaffection was when my father
(11:12):
would hug my mother in a sexualway.
Okay, and so as a teenager, Iconfused affection with sexual
activity.
Now I married this woman who wasraised in an environment where
they were in church every Sunday, every Wednesday, okay, but
they never hugged each other.
She never heard the words Ilove you.
(11:33):
They never showed emotion, theywere never praised, they never
celebrated birthdays, nothingwas ever a celebration in her
life.
So she would withdraw and I'dget angry because she wouldn't
talk to me.
Well, see, I was angry becausethat's an emotional pattern that
(11:54):
was built into me long before Ibecame a Christian, so it was
natural for me to respond withanger and anxiety.
Okay, and when I began tounderstand the triunity of man
and the conflict was not on aspiritual level but was in my
soul, between my mind and myemotions, that's when I began to
(12:17):
get free from the past.
And I say it like this Sam, youcan't get free from the patterns
of the past until you're freefrom the patterns of the past,
until you're free from thepeople of the past yeah, no,
that's that's interesting, drlawrence, because I think one of
the things that's that'sdifficult for people to do is
exactly that's to let go ofpeople of the past.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
But what do you do when you're you're going to be
connected to those people, be itthrough family or just
upbringing, because there's somepeople you're going to continue
connected to those people, beit through family or just
upbringing, because there's somepeople that you're going to
continue to interact with.
It sounds like you're talking alittle bit about boundaries.
Is that what I'm hearing?
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Well, more than boundaries, it's unplugging
those emotional energy thieves.
Okay, you asked me what is anemotional energy thief?
Well, just like you plug a lampinto a power socket you stay
plugged into people.
In the past.
Okay, for an example, my wife'smother was in church every
(13:13):
Sunday, but her mother was avery narcissistic, hostile,
abusive woman.
One time she beat Sylvia so badwhen she was nine years old.
Sylvia had to go and hide inthe closet in the master bedroom
because women from the churchwere coming over for ladies'
fellowship.
Now I know there's a lot ofpeople listening to us that can
(13:35):
identify with what I'm talkingabout.
Okay, they're Christian peopleand in their hearts they really
love the Lord as much as a humanbeing can.
But those emotional patterns intheir early years of upbringing
still control them.
So, anyway, so Sylvia, shewould hide from her mother by
(13:55):
withdrawing.
She would hide in the basementunder the stairs to get away
from her mother.
Now, from ages 7 to 12, sylviahad tuberculosis.
She was dying of TB.
That's when her father began tosexually abuse her.
Now put this together, sam.
Here's this little girl beingraised in this strict Baptist
(14:17):
home.
They're in church every Sunday.
She's hearing sin beingpreached about every Sunday.
Her mother is a hostile,abusive human being.
The boy on Sunday, on theLord's day, she preached about
every Sunday.
Her mother is a hostile,abusive human being.
But, boy, on Sunday, on theLord's day, she's a wonderful
Christian.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
She's a wonderful child of God.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Now here's this father that goes to a different
church and he's sexually abusingher.
How is she going to survive?
Well, she's going to withdraw.
She became what I call theescaper.
She became what I call theescaper.
I became what I call thesurvivor.
Okay, there was a lot ofphysical abuse in my background,
(14:52):
but by the time I was 16, Iliterally was physically
fighting back with my father.
So when I got saved I'll neverforget I laughed about this.
After I got saved, I said boy,god's got a lot of work to do
with me, okay, and of course hehas a lot of work to do with all
of us, doesn't he?
(15:13):
Okay?
And so I guess a simple way toput it.
I say it like this Sam, inevery marriage there's a parent
and there's a child.
It has nothing to do withgender, okay, it has nothing to
do with gender, it haseverything to do with
personality.
In every marriage there's asurvivor and there's an escaper.
(15:34):
And when I began, I was amissionary to Canada and went to
Winnipeg, manitoba, canada,started a church, didn't know a
human being there, and just outknocking doors, inviting people
to come to Sunday services.
And in six months we had 170 inour congregation.
In three years we built a450-seat auditorium on five
(15:57):
acres of land and I had a weeklytelevision broadcast Boy.
My ministry was just blossoming.
God had blessed many peoplegetting saved.
But, sam, my marriage wasfalling apart.
My wife was living in fear ofme and I couldn't understand it.
Why don't you talk to me?
Well, why wouldn't she talk tome?
(16:18):
When she was a child?
She learned to withdraw, didn'tshe?
Yeah, so even though she wassaved, she habitually
emotionally had that negativepattern of withdrawing.
I had the negative pattern ofgetting angry and saying why
don't you talk to me?
Well, how can she talk to mewhen, literally,
(16:40):
personality-wise, she marriedher mother?
Does that make sense?
Yeah, yeah, it's reallyinteresting how, when we get
married, sam, we literally marryeverybody in our spouse's
background okay.
And all their negative emotionalpatterns and their positive
(17:01):
patterns come along with them.
See, I tell you I can't tellyou how many people over the
years I've counseled and I wouldask the question when did you
notice that your marriage was introuble?
And this one guy said oh, dr g,I knew a month before we got
married it wasn't going to work.
Okay, and that's because allthe rejection patterns were so
(17:23):
obvious.
But she was the dominant one,he was the fancy one, and so he
went ahead to make her happy andgot married, and that lasted
about three years.
Wow.
So there we are.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Sure, and what you're sharing, dr Lawrence, I mean,
it is making a lot of senseno-transcript couple that says
(18:13):
we've never had an argument inour marriage.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I'll show you two liars.
Okay, everybody has conflicts.
Everybody brings their pastinto the marriage relationship
with them.
Everybody brings their pastinto the marriage relationship
with them.
And I had to learn how to getfree from my father's hostility,
I had to learn how to stopfocusing on outward physical
behavior patterns and startunderstanding my negative
(18:38):
emotional patterns.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
So how did you do that?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
separating from your father and then learning that
this new way of relating withyour emotions, Well, when Sylvia
was going to leave me this wasup in Winnipeg, canada I
promised her if you stay with me, I'm going to find the answer.
If we believe, the Word of Godhas the answer to every problem.
The answer is in the Word ofGod.
(19:02):
Now what happened is Sam.
I called several Christiancounseling clinics and all I
heard from them is well, youjust need to get right with God.
And then others would say youneed to get closer to God.
I got so sick of hearing thatthat is nothing more than false
guilt.
Can I give you two definitionsthat really plague a lot of
Christians?
(19:23):
Yeah, okay, the first one isfalse guilt.
False guilt is anxiety createdfrom a fear of rejection for a
lack of performance.
In other words, if I don'tperform the way you want me to,
then you're going to reject me.
So let me say that again Falseguilt is anxiety created from a
(19:44):
fear of being rejected for alack of performance.
Genuine guilt is a grievingcreated by the Holy Spirit over
a situation.
Now here's what happened.
When Sylvia was going to leaveme, my first response was oh,
what are people in the churchgoing to think about me?
I was more concerned about myprecious reputation than I was
(20:08):
concerned about my wife's mentaland emotional and spiritual
needs.
Well, that's false guilt.
I was more worried about myreputation.
Genuine guilt is a grievingcreated by the Holy Spirit over
a situation.
And when I realized what washappening, I became grievous.
(20:29):
I became grievously strickenabout my marriage relationship
and our emotional needs.
Okay, and so I got into theWord of God and I discovered
Hebrews, chapter 12, verse 15.
This is the underlying problem.
Okay, this is the poison in thecup.
(20:51):
And you know, if you drink acup of poison and wait for the
other person to die, it's notgoing to work.
So here's the cup of poisonmany Christians drink from and
they're not even aware of it.
Hebrews, chapter 12, verse 15.
It says looking diligently lestany person fail or miss out on
(21:12):
the grace of God, lest any rootof bitterness springing up
trouble you and thereby many bedefiled.
The root of bitterness does twothings, Sam it troubles the
individual and it defiles many.
Okay, Now let me say that again.
The root bitterness does twothings it troubles the
(21:33):
individual and defiles many.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
What do you mean by that second part?
It defiles many.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Well, for an example, my father's drunkenness and
anger his anger towards me beganto become my emotional response
.
Would you say I was defiled?
Yeah, Okay, that's what I meanby it.
Speaker 3 (21:58):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
You can't play in the dirt without getting dirty.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
You can't be raised in an environment without being
under the control of all theemotional upheaval that goes on
in that environment.
Now, for example, I counseled alady and her husband and she
said he never tells me he lovesme, he never hugs me, he never
(22:25):
kisses me, he never shows anykind of emotion at all.
Well, as I took his lifehistory, I began to understand
there's two things that man lostin his childhood he lost his
voice and his choice he had novoice.
He could not express hisemotions, he was not allowed to.
His mother would say you shutup and listen to me, Okay.
(22:49):
His dad would say you shut upand listen to me, Okay.
His dad would say you be quiet.
Children are to be seen, notheard.
So he lost his voice and helost his choice.
He was never allowed to make adecision on his own behalf
without his mother or fatherapproving of it.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
So guess what?
Speaker 2 (23:07):
When he got married, he married his mother's
personality.
It happens all the time yeah,yeah, and what?
Speaker 1 (23:16):
so what do you tell them?
Because I mean, if they come inwith that and you know that
already, before they even getmarried, um, I'm curious how you
would do the pre-maritalcounseling oh, I do, I, I tell
you, I never did much premaritalcounseling.
Really, I mean, I feel likethat would be such a huge
benefit.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Oh, no, not at all.
No, not at all.
You know why.
They haven't suffered enough.
Okay, what?
Speaker 3 (23:42):
do you mean?
Well, the bottom line is, theydon't see what the problem is
until after they get married,okay, so is there a way to know
beforehand?
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Pardon.
Is there a way for them to knowbeforehand?
I know you mentioned theyhaven't suffered enough, but
Well right.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Well how can I?
Speaker 2 (24:00):
explain it.
The bottom line is you don'tappreciate the surgeon's knife
until he gets rid of the cancerfor you.
That's good, yeah, yeah.
You, that's good, yeah, okay,that's the best way I can
explain it.
Before I got married, I didn'tneed premarital counseling.
I knew what I was doing.
God was my savior.
I was his son.
I had the word of God.
(24:20):
I had the Holy Spirit in mylife.
I'm going to be a good husbandbut, unbeknownst to me, I became
an abusive husband.
I became a hostile husband.
I became a husband that didn'tlisten.
Okay, instead of being gentleand peaceful and patient in my
(24:41):
marriage relationship, I wasdemanding.
Well, I became her mother again.
Okay.
Now, I didn't find out abouther sexual abuse until three
months after we were married.
I was out preaching for theweekend and I came back to our
apartment.
You know, I was 22 years old.
I wanted to come home to mywife.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
And.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
I took her shower and got in bed and snuggled up to
her and hugged her and startedto caress her and Sam, she
literally jumped out of bed sofast she slammed her head
against the wall and for thenext four hours she sat there
with her knees drawn up to herchest, saying you can't touch me
like that.
My daddy told me don't ever letanother man touch me the way he
(25:24):
did.
Don't tell my daddy what you'redoing to me.
Another man touch me the way hedid.
Don't tell my daddy what you'redoing to me.
For four hours, Sam now, that'sback when I was a young kid 22
years old.
Back in those days we calledthat a nervous breakdown right,
Okay today we call PTSD.
Okay, well, see now what I beganto realize as I got into the
(25:46):
word and started understandinghow bitterness defiles a person.
I began to understand that, nomatter who she married, he also
sexually abused her husband, see, because his sexual abuse in
(26:08):
her young life made her afraidof sex, and so that poisoned our
marriage relationship on theintimate level, and so I became
the victim of the second order,and so all I had to go back to
we've got to unplug thoseemotional energy thieves.
So I have a four-step processwith my coaching.
(26:29):
Okay, can I ask you a question?
Speaker 1 (26:32):
dr lawrence sure, yeah, I wonder you know you
mentioned that, for for her youkind of became the her mother in
personality wise, yeah what didshe become to you?
Speaker 2 (26:47):
She became a zero.
She was a non-entity becauseboth of my parents were very
dominant and very hostile.
Okay, they were always in apower struggle.
Okay, I had never known someoneso passive, so quiet, so
fearful, and so I just left heralone.
I went ahead and lived my lifewithout her, gotcha, if it
(27:07):
wasn't for the ministry.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
I went ahead and lived my life without her.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
If it wasn't for the ministry, I wouldn't have had
any purpose to live, and thathappens in a lot of preachers'
marriages.
When I traveled the US raisingsupport for our mission in
Canada, I met a lot of pastorsand their wives whose marriages
were in dire, dire straits and,as a matter of fact, that's what
(27:31):
led us to opening up ourcounseling ministry in
albuquerque, new mexico.
Uh, many pastors and theirwives would fly to canada.
We call it the cariboucounseling clinic.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
Okay, because I built the relationship with these
pastors and their wives yeahyeah, okay yeah I was just
curious of what that dynamic was, because you're both searching
for something and somethingfeels familiar and I was just
wondering what that was for youwell, and you I love the way you
just said we were bothsearching for something.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
We were.
We thought marriage was goingto be the ultimate experience of
joy and fulfillment, but now,once you, get free from the past
, you realize the real joy andfulfillment.
But now, once you get free fromthe past, you realize the real
joy and fulfillment is in yourconnection to the Lord, our
Heavenly Father, and then youbring that joy and that love and
(28:19):
that peace that he gives youand only he can give you that
and you bring that into themarriage relationship.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
So it sounds like a lot of individual work that the
Lord does in repairing thoseemotional patterns.
Once that's healed, you kind ofbring that into the
relationship.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Absolutely, Absolutely.
I started to tell you I havefour steps in my coaching.
Number one I want to identifythe underlying problem, not
treat the symptom.
Okay.
Hostility, depression, anxiety,fear, feelings of worthlessness
, a lack of self-image those areall just symptoms.
(28:57):
I want to identify theunderlying problem.
As we do that, we're going toisolate the underlying problem.
I spend a four-hour sessionwith my client, taking a life
history as much as I can in fourhours, but I have a series of
88 questions I ask my clientsand that would pretty well help
(29:18):
me identify the negativeemotional patterns that are
still controlling them.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
So after we identify, the problem.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Isolate the problem.
My third goal is we're going toeliminate the problem.
I put that through the processof what I call the emotional
surgery and if you buy my bookRejection Junkies, you'll be
able to read about it, sam, okay, definitely.
The emotional surgery.
It's a very painful process,but you get free from that root
(29:46):
of bitterness.
Now let me use an example ofemotional bondage.
I preached in Santa Fe, newMexico, at a pastor's conference
, and there was a young ladythere and she was about in her
late 20s and after the servicewas over she came up to me and
she said, dr G, I don't know ifyou appreciate this or not, but
(30:09):
I I may list all the words youmispronounced and I thought,
okay, I said, well, I reallyappreciate that, thank you.
And she started, uh, speakingvery negatively about other
preachers that she had heard.
And now, remember, she justheard me preach and I
mispronounced 28 words, right,so now I'm being corrected by
(30:31):
her.
So I just kind of interruptedher and I said can I ask you a
question?
She said, yes, absolutely.
And I said what was yourrelationship like with your
father?
She said, oh, my father.
He was a nasty man.
He was a hateful, hostile,angry man.
I grew up, I never wanted to belike him, and so I looked at
(30:52):
her very quietly.
I said well, how would you feelif I told you that you become
an exact duplicate of yourfather?
And she literally blew up she's.
I'm nothing like him he's angryhe's, he's vulgar he nasty, he's
so demanding, he's verycritical.
And I said well, you don'trealize this, but because of
(31:15):
your hostile feelings towardsyour father, towards your
constant repeating all of hisweaknesses, you have developed
what we call an emotional focus,and that emotional focus has
literally become overwhelming inyour life.
You become just like yourfather and Sam.
She literally went from angerand hostility to tears.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Yeah, I can see that.
Yeah, that's powerful, dr G,that's powerful, you know.
It's interesting because,obviously, with all the years of
experience that you have,you're able to identify these
things.
Now you know, after even goingthrough your own process and
journey.
You know for the audience, Ithink you've done a good job of
(31:57):
helping them identify theunhealthy patterns.
And what are healthy patterns?
Because I think people think ofhealthy patterns as okay, I
need to, you know, text myspouse every hour, every time,
or I need to hug my childrenmore, or I need to be.
You know, I need to performbetter in this other area with
(32:18):
my job.
So what are healthy patterns inyour counseling or guidance?
Speaker 2 (32:25):
That's the fourth stage of my coaching Okay.
As we identify, isolate andeliminate the problem.
My fourth goal is to rebuildthe relationship, and this is
where I teach men how to lovetheir wives like Christ loved
the church.
You know we hear so much ofwomen.
Their wives need to submitthemselves unto their own
husbands.
Right, but the fact is, beforethat, the Bible says husbands,
(32:50):
love your wives as Christ lovedthe church and gave himself for
it.
Now remember, I was thedominant personality, sylvia was
the passive personality.
So what was the first pattern Ibegan to break after I got free
from my bitterness?
I learned how to becomesubmissive to her needs.
When the husband learned how tobecome submissive to her needs,
when the husband learns how tobe submissive to his wife's
(33:12):
needs, that's when the marriagecan become healthy.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
And I believe.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
I believe the responsibility is totally 100%
on the husband's shoulders.
Now, that doesn't mean that youpurposely destroy marriage.
Okay, we got into marriage.
My dad never taught me how tolove a wife.
My dad never taught me how topraise a wife or how to build
her up, how to be positive.
(33:39):
Now, he did teach me how tocurse a wife.
He did teach me how to yell ata wife, okay, but until I
learned how to stop drinking thepoison of bitterness and get
free from the past, I was notable to concentrate on creating
the positive relationship in mymarriage and dr g when you say
(34:00):
when I stopped drinking, thepoison of bitterness, what?
Speaker 1 (34:03):
what was the bitterness?
What was the thought orreaction that you were having
about that?
Did you have like thoughtsabout your dad, like I can't
believe my dad did, that's mymom.
What was going on?
Speaker 2 (34:11):
Well, that's a great question, Sam.
You know, bitterness is not auser-friendly word, right?
You hear that definition ofwebsites it's not user-friendly.
Well, bitterness is notuser-friendly.
People don't like to say yeah,I'm bitter, you know, because
bitterness is not a friendlyword.
Well, bitterness is so manyother things and so I've learned
(34:32):
to give it differentdefinitions.
For example, bitterness is aninward resentment.
You show me someone orsomething you have an inward
resentment towards and you stillcarry that resentment.
I'll show you a root ofbitterness.
I'll show you a root ofbitterness.
Okay, bitterness is a woundedspirit.
Let me give you an example.
(34:53):
Our marriage really made amajor turn when Sylvia and I
were in Albuquerque, new Mexico,and I had even started my
counseling practice then.
And Sam, you know what it'slike being a counselor and
trying to work on your ownissues.
Okay, and this was very youngin our counseling ministry.
But anyway, I said, sylvia,I've decided I'm going to file
(35:16):
for divorce.
I'm not angry at you, I'm notgoing to get mad at you anymore,
I'm just filing for divorce.
She looked at me why, why not?
Why would you do that, sylvia?
I cannot live with anemotionally crippled woman.
The rest of my life I will notdo that to myself.
And then here's what she said,but Gary, I'm not like you and I
(35:38):
said what do you mean?
you're not like me Because allyou do is yell and scream and
you're mad all the time.
And I said I'm guilty of that,you're absolutely right, okay.
Well, see, she was focusing onmy emotional pattern of
hostility.
I was focusing on her emotionalpattern of sex is not something
to be enjoyed.
So there was two differentareas of our marriage.
(36:00):
And I said, Celia, you're verybitter.
She said I'm not bitter, I'mnothing like you.
I said, honey, bitterness isnot just something sour that you
eat.
Bitterness is an inwardresentment.
Bitterness is a wounded spirit,and when your father sexually
abused you as a little girl, hewounded your spirit, right.
(36:23):
And when she heard me say that,literally Sam, she burst out
crying.
Yeah, she just wept and weptand finally she understood that
she was bitter towards herfather.
So there's a root of bitterness.
Okay, bitterness is an anxiety.
You show me someone that comesinto your life, into your
(36:46):
presence, that creates anxiety.
I'll show you someone you havea root of bitterness towards.
Bitterness is a sense ofavoidance.
You show me someone you avoidbeing with.
I'll show you someone you're inbondage through bitterness
towards.
Okay.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
Bitterness is a sense of abandonment.
Speaker 2 (37:05):
You show me someone who you feel abandoned you and
I'll show you someone you have asense of abandonment.
You show me someone who youfeel abandoned you and I'll show
you someone you have a root tobitterness towards.
Now, here's the bottom line.
You've got many different rootsof bitterness, don't you?
And when you have all thesedifferent roots of bitterness,
how much control do you haveover your own life?
None, no, not much at all.
(37:28):
That's why you see so manyChristian people leave the
church.
They're in bondage tobitterness.
That's why you see so manyChristian people get divorced.
They're in bondage tobitterness.
I think you might know this,sam, but did you know the
divorce rate among Christianpeople is higher than the
divorce rate among secularpeople?
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Yeah, and I have some thoughts about that.
You know, like people whodescribe themselves or, you know
, define themselves as Christianbut aren't really like.
It seems to be like the popularterm, so I have some, some
hesitancy with using that but, Imean, it's basically half, it's
almost basically.
You know, I think it thingslike 42, 44%, which is still
high.
Speaker 2 (38:09):
Yeah, yeah, and I agree with what you're saying.
But there's a lot, a lot ofChristian people who are saved.
They're a child of God.
They are already connected toGod because the Holy Spirit
dwells in them.
Correct, yeah?
Speaker 3 (38:24):
That will never change.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
But those emotional patterns from the past still
control them.
Speaker 1 (38:32):
And Dr G if you can, I'd love you to elaborate on
this aspect.
Like God gave us emotions, Ithink, for both of us growing up
in a Baptist home or Baptist Ididn't grow up in a Baptist home
, no.
I'm sorry, Like under thatBaptist teaching when you got
saved right.
Yeah, Right yeah, I think one ofthe things that are taught is
(38:54):
that you need to change yourthinking, but there's not really
a lot of attention given to theemotion, and that's what we're
talking about right now, likethese emotional bonds, and that
gave us emotions.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
So I think that's kind of what you're touching on.
Is you know what were thepurpose of the emotions?
If they're creating these bonds, right, yeah.
Well, as you think so, are youemotionally Okay?
If you think that someone'sgoing to hurt you emotionally,
you're going to have fear.
If you think that you can do itand you're going to do a great
job, you have that emotion ofpride, okay.
It all comes back tounderstanding.
You've got to eliminate thatconflict between what you know
(39:35):
and how you feel.
Speaker 3 (39:36):
For example, I know.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
God loves me.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
I don't feel like God loves me.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
Well, I know I'm successful.
I don't feel like I'msuccessful.
Okay, I know I can make ithappen.
I don't feel like I can make ithappen, so as long as what you
know and how you feel are inconflict, then your will, your
ability to respond to lastcircumstances is damaged and
instead of having love, joy andpeace, long-suffering the fruits
(40:03):
of the spirit, you have thefruits of the flesh, which is
feelings of insecurity, feelingsof inadequacy.
And these are all emotionsfeelings of anxiety, feelings of
dependency and always dependingon other people, and so on, so
on, so on.
It's like a tsunami of emotionsthat control you.
(40:25):
Yeah, that's a good way toemotions that control you.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good way to put it, sir, yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:30):
Yeah, and you know when I would hold seminars, sam,
I would ask this question.
I had what I used to call theuniversity of successful living
and I would say how many of you,about six months after you got
saved, I mean about six monthsafter you got married how many
of you looked over at thatperson in bed next to you and
(40:51):
thought how did I end up in bedwith this person?
Okay, because many, many timesand if you've counseled people,
sam, you've heard this manytimes after they get married,
about six months down the road,they say you're not the same
person.
I married.
What happened?
Okay?
(41:15):
Married.
About six months down the road,they say you're not the same
person.
I'm married.
What happened?
Okay, because we're always onour best behavior before we get
married.
We're always doing our best tomake sure the other person's
comfortable with us.
Yeah, and then we get married,and then the real emotional
patterns start floating to thesurface and how do you, how do
you guide people through thatprocess, sir?
Speaker 1 (41:28):
I think everyone knows that that's what happens.
They know that they're going tohave maybe a hard time in the
first or second year.
But I mean, how do you preparethem for that?
Do they just have to go throughthat process and learn how to
face their emotions?
Speaker 2 (41:44):
Oh, I'm so glad you said that, sam.
Emotions.
Oh I'm so glad you said that,sam.
Yeah, yeah, everybody does notknow.
That's what's going to happen,okay, everybody lives in a
fantasy world, what theirmarriage is going to be like
okay, even if they acknowledgeit be, even if they acknowledge
it beforehand yeah, oh yeah, ohyeah, and and then, and then
they're covered up with.
(42:04):
Well, I didn't think it'd be sobad, that's true, yeah, well, I
didn't think it would actuallylead to this.
Okay, well, I thought I couldput up with it as long as he, or
as long as she, didn't make itany worse.
Okay, it's kind of like they'retaking this drug that you sniff
.
It's called unbelief.
They want to believe the bestabout the person they're
(42:25):
marrying, okay, and so there aremany times that couples have
come to me for coaching and Irefuse to accept them because
they're always blaming theirmate for everything that's
happening.
Okay, and they're so angry andso bitter towards their mate.
(42:47):
I know they're not ready yet,angry and so bitter towards
their mate.
I know they're not ready yet,they haven't suffered enough yet
to say I'm ready to look in themirror of reality and deal with
my own issues.
I believe it's all about heart.
Every marriage and I want tosay this very clearly every
marriage can become a healthy,spirit-controlled marriage
relationship as long as one mateis willing to give free
(43:09):
mentally and emotionally fromthe past and become submissive
to the leadership of the HolySpirit.
I believe that with all myheart.
Speaker 1 (43:17):
Yeah, yeah, and, dr G , I know there's going to be
some people who are listeningand I think from their
perspective they may feel like,well, I did give 100%, I felt
like I was invested and I feltlike I let go as much as I could
, but the other person will, andmaybe they don't even place the
blame on the other person, butthey themselves feel like they
did all they could.
What do you say to those people?
Speaker 2 (43:40):
I say they need to look in the mirror again, find
out who they're talking about.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
You're not looking hard enough in the mirror.
Speaker 2 (43:46):
Yeah, yeah, you know, and and I I do my best to be
very kind and very patient withpeople?
yeah, but let me give you anexample uh here, a couple came
to me this was many years agoand this is a perfect example
and he was involved in anextramarital affair and they
were in my office and he satthere and he denied it totally,
(44:09):
and so I asked her to step outand sit in the reception area.
I said I want to talk to yourhusband alone, and so I asked
him.
After she closed the door, Isaid I'm going to ask you a
question, and when I ask you thequestion, I don't want you to
look at the ceiling or at thewall or at the floor.
I want you to look me in theeyes and answer me.
You have to understand.
You're not in trouble with me.
(44:30):
I'm not mad at you.
I don't care if you're havingan affair.
I don't care if you're having10 affairs, because your affairs
are not the issue.
Tell me who you're having anaffair with.
He immediately looked down atthe floor.
I said whoa, whoa, he'ssupposed to look me in the eyes.
And so he looked me in the eyesand he told me who it was.
(44:51):
And it just happened.
I knew who that woman was and Isaid okay.
I said are you ready to getfree from the past?
And he looked at me and saidwell, will I have to give up the
affair?
I said oh no, no, no, no, Idon't want you to give up the
affair at all.
He said are you a Christiancounselor?
And I said oh yeah, I'm aChristian counselor.
(45:15):
And I said the bottom line isyou worked very hard to have
this affair.
You've told many, many lies,you spent a lot of money
covering it up.
You put a lot of mental andemotional energy into having
this affair.
But what you have to realize isthe affair is not your problem,
that's just a symptom.
If I can position you to getfree from your past, we can
(45:38):
break the symptom.
We can eliminate this patternonce and for all.
Wow See, I didn't condemn him.
I didn't say change yourbehavior, you child.
See, I never focus on aperson's behavior.
Behavior is what people see youdo.
Character is what God knows youto be.
(45:58):
That's where you're connectedwith God.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Wow, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (46:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very, very powerful,
makes a lot of sense, you know,pushing people to look deeper
than the surface, deeper thanthe behavior.
Right, right, right.
Speaker 2 (46:13):
Wow, I'll tell you what.
I'd love for you because I'dlove to get some input.
If you could go to my website,rejectionjunkiescom, junkiescom,
and for the sake of youraudience, that's rejection
junkies, that's spelled j-u-n.
Speaker 1 (46:32):
K-i-e-s, rejection junkiescom, and you can order a
copy of my book there.
Absolutely no, dr g.
I mean one of the things that Ienjoy doing.
You know, it's um.
It's kind of like, you know,when you read a book or you
watch a movie and you like themovie so much that you don't
want to read the book becausethe details are going to be like
oh, oh man, it's not what Ithought, right.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (46:48):
After this conversation, definitely, and I
want to encourage my my audienceas well, because I'm I don't
just take any interview, dr G,so I really try to look at.
Ok, what did they talk about?
I think there was a clip, avideo clip, that you had in the
email and looked it up.
I'm like I like this.
(47:09):
And then there was somethingabout your tone when we spoke
over the phone.
There was just something that Ifelt that was different and
good, and I really appreciatethis conversation and the fact
that you've kept it focused onscripture, focused on Christ,
and I think that's what ouraudience needs.
So I really do want to thankyou, dr G, and I will be getting
the book.
I really do want to thank you,dr G, and I will be getting the
book.
I promise you and I will letyou know how it goes.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
I'll give you a review.
I really appreciate that, sam.
Well, there's two tools that Idepend on in my coaching.
Number one is the ministry ofthe Holy Spirit.
Number two is the ministry ofGod's Word.
Okay, the Word of God is like asword, it's like a sharp knife.
It cuts into the inner part ofman, it gets into our soul, it
(47:50):
gets into our emotions and itfeeds us.
And it separates the evil fromthe good, it separates the
bitter from the sweet.
And you know, the Bible says,and Jesus says himself, that
sweet water and bitter watercan't flow through the same
fountain.
Well, if you've got roots ofbitterness controlling you from
(48:11):
the past, how can you enjoysweetness in the present
relationship?
And if you're not going to befree to enjoy the present, how
are you going to build yourfuture?
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
And let me share this for the Savior listeners Sam, I
had a stroke in January of 21.
And that brought everything toa screeching halt for me.
I was in Mayo Hospital forthree days and I went to rehab
for seven days.
And I'll never forget, outsideof my double bedroom window at
(48:45):
the rehab hospital, there was adouble window in the patio out
there with a brick wall, and I'mlaying there in bed and I'm
looking at that brick wall.
I said, lord, there's anotherwall in my life and I've got to
find some way to get over it oraround it, and you're going to
have to help me.
And so, when I got home fromrehab, my wife, my son Kevin,
(49:08):
said Dad, you need to updateyour book Rejection Junkies.
And so that was part of mycognitive therapy, and so we
updated.
It became the bestseller withina week on Amazon.
Then I began to do podcastinterviews, and so I know I'm in
the last season of my life.
I just turned 80, october the4th.
(49:29):
Okay, so I know I'm in the lastseason of my life, but I read
one time that President JimmyCarter, someone asked him
President Carter, why is it youspent the last three decades of
your life with Humanity forHabitat or Habitat for Humanity.
And I thought this was reallyawesome.
(49:50):
Jimmy Carter said well, myfaith demands that I do
everything I can for everybody Ican, any way I can, for as long
as I can.
And I thought, okay, lord, andI figured I've got a good five
to 10 years of productivity leftyet, so I'm just going to coach
people and do my best to helppeople enjoy a quality of life
(50:11):
that Jesus died for.
Speaker 1 (50:13):
I love it, sir.
That's so awesome and again,I'm just so thankful that you
agreed to come on the show andhonestly, I'd love to have you
on again if you're open to it.
I feel like we go so much deeperin talking about these
different aspects of ouremotional backgrounds, because
that is a place because I thinkyou would agree with this that
if we're doing, sometimes goduses people in our lives to help
(50:36):
us see him differently andsometimes he does something in
our lives that helps us seepeople around us differently and
, and I think because of thoseemotional um bonds and patterns
that we have, I think if webreak some of them it could shed
some light on those differentrelationships.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
I would love that, sam, I really would.
Speaker 1 (50:55):
I'm all about building relationships, so you
can get a copy of my book andlet's talk in a couple of weeks.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
Okay, Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
Thank you so much, dr G Sam thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
It's been my honor.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
Absolutely, and guys remember RejectionJ conversation
.
Oh, sam, thank you so much,it's been my honor.
Absolutely, and guys rememberrejection junkiescom.
And he also has his book onamazon.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
If you're free to purchase it, I'll put the link
in the bio as well by the way,sam, before we go, when they go
to my website, on the home pageit says are you a rejection
junkie?
There's a quiz they can take.
If they submit it, then I willrespond to them and I will give
them, absolutely no cost, a free30-minute evaluation of the
results.
Speaker 3 (51:34):
They can find out they're a rejection junkie.
Speaker 1 (51:36):
Okay, awesome, love that.
Okay, yeah.
So I hope you guys take note ofthat Again.
I'll put this information inthe description and, guys, thank
you for tuning in.
Please share this with yourfriends and family, such an
important topic and great wisdomfrom from dr Gary Lawrence.
Thank you, sir.
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