February 12, 2025 • 39 mins
Send Me Questions on Attachment
Could betrayal trauma be silently shaping your relationships? Join us for an enlightening episode featuring Kendra King, a respected expert in betrayal trauma and affair recovery. With over ten years of experience in mental health, Kendra shares her profound insights into the complex emotions and challenges that arise from betrayal in romantic relationships. Drawing from her extensive work at the Healing Heart Center, she sheds light on the intricate layers of betrayal trauma, which extend far beyond infidelity and include emotional betrayals such as withholding feelings or engaging in intimate conversations outside the partnership.
We explore the symptoms and triggers of betrayal trauma, highlighting the nuanced ways stress can lead individuals to unhealthy behaviors when they lack coping mechanisms. The conversation emphasizes the critical role of open communication and emotional safety as protective measures against betrayal. Kendra's inclusive approach makes her insights accessible to individuals of diverse faith backgrounds, breaking through the shame often surrounding these topics, especially within Christian communities. By understanding personal boundaries and perceptions, couples can navigate the risks of betrayal and strengthen their connections.
As we journey through the emotional aftermath of betrayal, we tackle the realities of PTSD, hypervigilance, and erosion of trust. Kendra underscores the importance of both partners confronting their emotional responses rather than concealing pain or expecting one person to resolve the issue alone. Through personal accountability, vulnerability, and therapy, individuals are encouraged to engage in self-reflection and growth. By embracing these principles, Kendra reveals how individuals can transform their actions and nurture healthier, more resilient relationships.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
All right, everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
I'm excited for a couple ofepisodes and series that I have
going on this upcoming weeks,and tonight I have the privilege
of interviewing Ms Kendra King,and she's going to be talking
about betrayal and its traumaticeffects on a romantic partner
or spouse, and this is herspecialization.
(00:27):
This is what she does.
She's had a lot of years andshe's going to share a lot about
her credentials and experience.
And, kendra, thank you forbeing on the show today.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
So welcome, so welcome.
Thank you for having me.
This is an honor, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Absolutely.
You know, one of the thingsthat I don't don't know if it's
(01:01):
hard to do, but it's reallyencouraging to be able to meet
with other Christians in thespace of counseling, because I
think I don't know if this wasyour experience, but just kind
of the things that we seeregarding our faith ties in very
well to counseling, and thistopic that we're discussing
today is a very sensitive topicbecause we see it experienced in
a lot of relationships.
Right, so I'm excited to diveinto this topic, but before we
do, as always, thank you fortuning in.
(01:22):
For those of you who arelistening, remember to follow on
Instagram atGodAttachmentHealing, and also
follow us on Apple Podcasts andSpotify, and I'll allow for Ms
Kendra at the end to share anyresources or a way to contact
her if you guys need anything orjust have questions for her.
But yeah, let's go ahead anddive in.
(01:43):
Ms Kendra King, introduceyourself to the audience.
What's your background?
Where are you from?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Sure, so everyone.
I'm Kendra King.
I live and have been here foralmost 18 years, charlotte,
north Carolina.
My background has been inmental health and substance
abuse.
For 10 plus years, I startedspecializing in sex and porn
addiction, sex therapy andaffair recovery around 20, I
(02:14):
want to say 2019.
And so now I've had the ownerand lead therapist of my own
private practice, the HealingHeart Center.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
For the past, two years, I love that name.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
So, yes, yes, it's a combination of the group
practice.
I got exposed to this field andmy mentor, also supervisor, who
I got my certification fromit's the Heart to Heart
Counseling Center out inColorado, dr Doug Weiss.
(02:46):
He's been one of thecontributors to the sex and porn
addiction field and I did mysupervision directly under him.
So I kind of bridged the namesof the group practice I was at
and his practice, and thehealing heart center was born.
So yeah that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
That's awesome.
And what drew you to?
Was there something that drewyou to working with this
population?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
So, yes, I've always wanted to be an eclectic
therapist.
I always strive to be atherapist that was well-rounded,
well-versed, exposed todifferent types of subject
matter topics.
I wanted to be different and Iwanted to be connected
personally and professionally towhat it is that I specialized
(03:31):
in.
So when I found the grouppractice that I mentioned
earlier and the topics that theyjust talked about, I was just
like, oh, I didn't know, thiswas a thing, let me try this out
.
And then, once I got exposed, Ijust I fell in love.
I became super passionate and Ijust kind of just dived even
(03:52):
deeper into just being able tobring this to a platform such as
yours to just kind of sharewhat I've been exposed to
professionally, who I've workedwith and stuff like that, just
so, the audience and people justin society, christians, you
(04:13):
know, just people in general.
We don't talk about sex.
It's a very like you said,touchy topic, but everybody's
engaging in it, right?
It doesn't matter what yourfaith background is, who you
consider your higher power.
It's kind of one of thosethings that we, as human beings,
we're sexual.
So there there are healthy waysand then there's unhealthy ways
, and so I just I'm grateful tobe able to bridge the gap and be
(04:37):
able to give knowledge andunderstanding to something that
that that's really important andsomething that we all, you know
, need to be well informed aboutwhen it comes to just
interacting with one another.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Absolutely.
Do you work specifically withChristian clients or just all
types of clients?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
So I work with all types of clients.
I do have believers of thefaith, Christian folks that
identify themselves asChristians, but I do also have
individuals who are stillexploring or are just open so I
am able to apply the knowledgeto anyone really believers.
(05:29):
It's, it's it's really beingable to break the condemnation,
to break that kind of religiousstructure on what sexuality is,
what it's not, and kind of beable to give a better broad
understanding of, of being ableto know the difference, like
said, of healthy and unhealthy,and taking away that judgment,
because sometimes us asChristian, other Christian faith
(05:49):
, of believers, we can be reallyjudgmental and it's just like,
at the end of the day, all of usare people and so it doesn't
matter what you feel you know issaying there is no hierarchy,
there is a level of you need tojust own your stuff.
Just own your stuff and work onit and work through it.
(06:09):
So no pointing fingers here,it's all.
Let's just be better and let'sdo better.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah, and especially with a topic like this, right,
it's one of those things and youtouched on it, this idea of
shame and condemnation, andthat's why I feel like it's such
an important piece forChristians to address.
So you know, as we jump intothis topic, so I guess, just for
the audience, what is betrayaltrauma?
Right, we hear you know there'scheating, there's betrayal of
(06:37):
emotions, there's different waysto cheat nowadays.
So when you talk about betrayaltrauma, what is it that you're
referring to exactly?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Well, like you said, sam, it is all those things.
It could be emotional, it couldbe mental, it could be physical
, it could be sexual, it couldreally be anything.
Anything that violates theboundaries and the trust between
you and your partner or yourspouse.
That is what betrayal traumaconsists of.
It's very broad.
It can look like differentthings, especially if there is
(07:11):
not an established or an openline of communication on what
are the boundaries.
What are we able to do inregards to engaging with the
opposite sex?
In regards to engaging in porn.
In regards to gauging anemotional connection with other
people, what does that look likeand how do we define that and
how can we have an openconversation to be able to
explore those without beingdefensive, without feeling the
(07:31):
need to hide?
I think there's just a lack ofthe foundational establishment
of communication because, rightlike it's this invasive kind of
thing like, oh, you're trying tocontrol me or you're trying to
tell me what to do, or whateverthe case may be, it's just like
no, I just, I just I don't wantto be hurt, I don't want to hurt
you.
So let's just kind of come tothe table and talk about what,
(07:55):
what are things that arenegotiable, what are
non-negotiables, and and let'skind of move forward in an open
dialogue when it comes to thosethings, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
So it sounds like there's an assumption on both
partners that we know whatcheating is, we know what
betrayal is and we're justmoving through life and then,
when it happens, like, oh, whyis this a problem?
So I think what I heard waspeople just don't really
communicate about it openly,like, hey, what are your
boundaries here?
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, it is, it's a big thing.
A big thing that couples cometo me about is communication.
Communicating about emotions orassumptions.
Like you assume that I'm doingthis as opposed to just asking
me, or there's behaviors thathave been discovered, whatever
the case may be.
Really just communication.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, yeah.
And what's a common?
What's a common theme that youfind with the clients that
you're working with?
I know we mentioned porn, butis that the common theme or is
there other things?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
So there are other things as well.
Not all of them consist of porn.
They consist of having intimateconversations with other people
, such as emotionalconversations.
You can talk to other peopleabout how you feel, but you
can't talk to me.
There's a lack of understanding.
(09:26):
I feel like I'm going to keepthese things to myself, because
when I do share, you know I feelattacked or I feel dismissed or
unheard unseen.
It's just a variety of thingsthat kind of sum up this type of
misunderstanding.
Really, you know, and, like Isaid, it all comes with
communication, so it can show upin different types of ways.
(09:48):
There's not always the sexualbetrayal, it's not always porn
use.
And I've discovered that you'reusing porn.
You didn't tell me about this.
Who are you?
It's not always like that, butit still has the same impact,
which consists of betrayaltrauma.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Okay, no, that consists of betrayal trauma.
Okay, no, that's good to know.
So when people don't talk aboutthis, what is I guess?
What is it?
Why does it happen in romanticrelationships?
I know we're talking aboutcommunication piece.
Are there like any type oftriggers that started, Because
most people, I think, the firstcouple of years it seems like
(10:25):
there's open communication, butthen life happens, they have
kids, there's change in jobs,there's moving, so it sounds
like those are barriers tocommunication because it becomes
overwhelming.
But are there any specifictriggers that you would say?
You know what, when people gothrough this, they need to be
extra careful about potentiallybetraying each other, because
(10:47):
there's some, some situationthat kind of set that up for.
For people.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yeah, Stress, stress is the biggest one you know and
being able to feel emotionallysafe to to share the emotions
and the vulnerability of whatstress influences.
It could stem from childhood,it can happen in adolescence, it
could really happen anywhere,to be honest, but it's really a
(11:14):
sense of I feel stressed, Idon't know how to cope in a
healthy way.
So I am going to engage inbehaviors that may or may not be
appropriate, that I may sharewith you.
I may not you know and and thosekind of set kind of the path up
to where you start drifting offand detaching from your partner
(11:38):
and engaging potentially inthese unhealthy behaviors.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
So if people don't have good responses to stress,
they're more prone to, or atleast open to, betrayal.
You have an outlet to support.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
It doesn't necessarily have to be a
significant other or your spouse, somebody.
I need you to talk to someone,because when you internalize all
these experiences, you're justsetting yourself up to ruminate,
to overthink, and you becomeeven more overwhelmed with
what's going on and you're justkind of festering within and you
don't have anywhere for it tobe let out.
(12:16):
And then it's just like, oh,and if you do have a background
in unhealthy sexual behaviors orunhealthy compulsive sexual
behaviors, then your go-to is,oh, I feel, I feel stressed, I
need to release, I need to to,to sense or soothe myself.
Let me just do this right quick, and then it's a quick fix
(12:37):
instead of really dealing withthe root of the issue.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's, that's a, that is a
common experience, and I wonder,as I read a lot of research on
the aspect of trauma and howthose ruptures happen in
attachments within relationships.
So, for you, what are somecommon symptoms that you see
from betrayal?
Because people, to your point,people experience it differently
(13:03):
, because some communicate andthey have, they each have
different boundaries for what'sconsidered cheating, what's not.
So what are some things thatyou see in your clients that are
oh yeah, this is a strongsymptom of being betrayed.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
PTSD for sure, that's number one.
So hypervigilant, being in astate of panic like the shoe's
about to drop, or not being ableto feel comfortable when your
partner's not around.
So you've discovered things andy'all talked about them, but
it's just like, oh, I still feelthis sense of fear or
(13:38):
apprehension.
Internalization is a big onetoo, being able to not take on
the blame.
I'm not enough, I'm notsexually what he wants or what
she wants, whatever the case maybe.
So it's really an internal kindof self-destruction breakdown of
(14:00):
the person you know, being ableto show up in relationships,
being able to share what's goingon, a sense of hiding and
secrecy.
Can't talk to your family,can't talk to your friends.
They're not going to understand.
They may potentially judge.
You don't want to feel shame orguilt either.
Stand, they may potentiallyjudge.
(14:21):
You don't want to feel shame orguilt either.
You may potentially try tocarry this on your own.
There's just so many things, butptsd is definitely the biggest
one, and also being able to helpthe person who is betrayed
understand and accept the factthat this is not just going to
heal overnight.
There's this thing of you needto go get fixed.
(14:43):
You need to go talk to somebody.
This is your issue.
You need to fix it becauseyou're the one that caused the
betrayal, when, in actuality,they also need to be addressed
too.
Their stuff needs to beaddressed too, because there's
this sense of well, if you goget better and you go work out
(15:04):
your issue, then you can make mefeel better, and that's not the
case.
You still have to do your ownwork.
So internalizing PTSD,hypervigilant, a lot of lack of
trust, engaging in like kind ofwhat we call acting in as
opposed to acting out,overeating, sleeping, just
(15:27):
disconnected in life.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And is that something that isnoticed by people around them?
Or, you know, because we do agood job of showing others that
everything is okay, especiallyin Christian circles right, the
idea of no, we're good, you know, and we got to wrestle with
this ourselves, so it's almostlike the there's a a I don't
(15:51):
know if I wouldn't say itthere's a secret among the
couple.
Like, we know that this ishappening in our marriage and we
don't want to feel that shame,so we're not going to share with
anyone, but we also don't knowhow to deal with it.
So it kind of becomes a cycleof not really dealing with it,
just living in it.
Right.
And I wonder what do yourecommend for clients who are in
that situation?
Or do you see that often withclients that you're working with
(16:14):
?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
I do see I haven't seen specifically where they're
they are intentionally showingup with a mask on.
However, they want it to remainin house as much as possible,
more public or more connectedfamilially with friends and
(16:38):
stuff like that family, whateverthe case may be.
There could be a sense of we'regoing to mask this and we're
going to figure this out andwe're not going to let this leak
out.
Because if they say, if they'rea high profile couple or
they're in a leadership type ofrole in whatever capacity,
showing that there is a there'sa fault, there's a fault,
(17:00):
there's an area of weaknesswithin the institution, who,
within the relationship, couldcause other people to make
assumptions, make judgments,whatever the case may be, and
there's this image there's thisimage that they want to protect
and it's just like no, no, Ineed you to, I need you to work
on.
And it's just like no, no, Ineed you to.
I need you to work on thatbecause, as these people, I tell
(17:23):
clients all the time that wehave different, we have
different masks or differentideas of self.
Right, you got your public self, you got your actual self, and
then you got your real selfsomewhere in there.
We got to figure out which onewe're going to engage in and
we're going to have to be ableto show up in that.
Nobody everybody don't need toknow your business.
(17:44):
However, I need you toacknowledge what's going on.
You can't just hide, becauseyou're essentially dying and
dimming inside.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Wow, yeah, yeah, that's true.
And do you find that they putup a wall or they resist that,
like it sounds like there's ahuge denial, that it's a big
problem or that it's even anissue at all?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
There's a lot of compartmentalization, more so
from the betrayer as opposed tothe betrayed.
But there can be some in thebetrayed too.
Like I said before, this isyour issue.
You need to go work that out.
I didn't do anything, but yetyou're still feeling all these
(18:33):
things because of the actionsthat were taken and made.
So it really, it really depends, sam.
Everybody shows up differentand it looks different, but it's
important that the audienceunderstands that this is a vast.
This is a vast thing and it canlook like anything, but it all
(18:54):
feels the same.
It's all a sense of betrayal.
It's all a sense of secrecy andviolation, mistrust.
There's communication issues inthere already too, so it's just
so many packed on layers.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
that's coming to mind is just the idea of being open
and talking about it with witheach other, that it's better to
be open than to be hiding it.
Yes, but it sounds like I thinkone of the things that I've
heard clients share is that,well, if I share, then things
(19:34):
are just going to get worse.
And do you find that it doesget worse but then it gets
better?
Or is it just kind of likethat's the end of it all and
that's it?
People just want to give up onthe marriage.
Like, what do you see regardingthat when people start to share
or they open up the first time?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
So the level of vulnerability is a big barrier
because it's just like well, ifI'm vulnerable, I'm just leaving
myself up to get open or hurtagain.
Because it's just like well, ifI'm vulnerable, I'm just
leaving myself up to get open orI hurt again, and it's just
like well.
That's not necessarily the case, but at the end of the day, you
know, yes, that may happen, butthen it may not.
You know, all you can do isfocus on what you can control.
(20:12):
Cause, at the end of the day,if you want to save your
marriage and you want to stay init, you're going to have to
show.
You're still going to have todo your part, even though you
were the one portrayed.
So you know you have to get rid.
A big thing is getting rid ofthe expectations, like I was
talking about the timeframe ofwhen is this hurry?
This is going to hurry up andbe over with.
It doesn't work like that.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
It's going to always be there.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
It's always be there.
It's being able to lower that,that voice, that that.
What are they doing?
Do you think they're like, likeall those negative thoughts,
those internalizations, beingable to quiet that down because
it's not going nowhere, becauseit happened?
You can forgive, but you ain'tgonna forgive and you're gonna
essentially have triggers thatit doesn't matter how long y'all
healed together, healedseparately or whatever the case
may be, you can still gettriggered.
(21:04):
That could still happen out ofanywhere.
You know what I'm saying, soyou know.
Just toss the expectations yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
So it's good for the, for the audience to know that
even as you're healing or asyou're working through this,
that doesn't mean that iteliminates those feelings that
can still come up.
So I guess that jumps into ournext question of okay, so what
does healing look like forsomeone who has experienced
betrayal trauma?
What does that process looklike for them?
(21:32):
You mentioned there's no realtimeline, right?
I can't hurry this process up,but we've often heard the
concept of people hurt inrelationship and they also heal
in relationship.
Do you have any thoughts aboutthat?
Because it sounds like thiswould be a two person thing,
like in order for that person toheal, both need to work and
(21:55):
it's not something that you cando individually.
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Right.
So I am a firm believer youhave to start with yourself.
The betrayer has to start withthemselves.
You have to figure out whereyou kind of went wrong or where
did this all start to lead upinto this, and then be able to
(22:21):
work with the portrayed to healthose things right giving
context, giving explanations,giving knowledge, giving
background, really openingyourself that vulnerability and
sharing fully sharing andletting go of the sense of shame
and guilt because it's alreadybrought you this far.
So you know your best bet ifyou want to heal yourself is
(22:44):
start being honest with yourselfreally yeah so same with the,
with the betrayed.
Individual work.
Take accountability for thethings that you recognize.
You did Not to influence thebetrayer's actions, but just how
(23:06):
did you honestly show up in therelationship?
Were you emotionally safe totalk to?
Were you vulnerable?
Did you make time?
Were you intentional?
Were you present?
Were you make time?
Were you intentional?
Were you present?
Were you sexually engaged, like?
Really take inventory on howyou showed up in this
relationship, because it'salways a sense of you want to
(23:27):
shift, everybody wants to shiftthe blame.
The betrayer wants to shift theblame, the betrayed wants to
shift the blame.
Now both of y'all need to takeaccountability, because both of
y'all played a part into whathas happened.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's just really what itis.
I think there's sometimesthere's a sense of denial that
(23:49):
it's it's both parties false.
Right.
It may not have been one person,may not have done as extreme as
the other, but still like therewas a disconnect somewhere,
there was a detachment somewhere.
Something happened somewhere.
You didn't just, you know,happen to just fall into this
(24:13):
thing.
Something happened and it'sokay to hold yourself
accountability.
Accountable.
I would hope so.
I would hope you do that as anindividual outside of a
relationship yeah, yeah so it'sjust being able to be honest
with oneself and really, reallychecking it?
did I?
Was I really, was I really thebest partner?
(24:36):
I could possibly be not takingon the, the actions that you
know the betrayed engaged in.
But was did I really show up?
Could I've been better?
Could I've done more?
yeah I think sometimes we don'treally evaluate our sense of
performance, and when I sayperformance I don't mean like
dates and in materialistic,surface level stuff.
(25:00):
I mean as as being able toreally show up in a human sense
yeah being able to provide thatemotional security, to have the
open communication, to be honestand transparent.
You know what I'm saying.
Like, there's just, there's justdifferent ways of being able to
(25:21):
engage in a healthy way inrelationships and we're not
taught that, especially aschristians yeah especially as
christians, we, we kind of shiftaway from the humanistic side
and kind of stick strictly tothe spiritual, and it's just
like you are a spiritual beinghaving a human experience.
I need you to acknowledge both,I need you to work out both you
(25:45):
know, what I'm saying.
Like you can't just put one ona higher pedestal than the other
.
It doesn't work like that.
Just as much as you feed yourspirit, you need to feed your
human, your humanity as well, ina healthy way, right?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yeah.
It's only fair, that's so true,and that's a great point too,
because I think, yeah, you'reright.
In Christian circles they sayif you address the spiritual
piece, then that's going toaffect the other parts.
But similarly, if the physicalor the emotional is not
addressed, that also affects howone feels spiritually.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
How can you show up with God?
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
How?
If you don't acknowledge thatyou have weaknesses, you have
weaknesses and you have tosurrender.
You have to surrender andaccept that you need help in
these areas.
In order to be able to, youhave to be vulnerable for the
Father.
You have to be able to bringall, have to be vulnerable for
the father.
You have to be able to bringall.
(26:41):
You know like you got to do thesame thing.
You just can't have one withoutthe other.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
No, that's such a great point.
When people are expecting achange, do you often find and
you've already mentioned thisthis idea of taking personal
accountability.
Okay, what did I do wrong, whatcould I do differently, how can
I own my emotions, own mythoughts, and so on.
So when people are restoringthe relationship or trying to
(27:08):
come back to healing therelationship, what are some
evidences of that?
So, people who are listening,they usually want to rush the
process right, but we can't.
The healing process just takestime and it's an ongoing journey
.
So what would you say is somethings that people can look at,
(27:28):
that show or demonstrate.
Hey, you know what, If you seethese things in you or in your
relationship, then you're movingtowards healing and there's
hope.
So what does that look like forclients?
Speaker 2 (27:38):
So, how we talked about the individual therapy and
we talked about couples therapy, the next level would be group
therapy, being able to connectwith others that have shared
experiences, and not just so youcan put your business out there
.
And it's not about that.
We cannot do this alone, youcannot heal on your own, and
(28:01):
it's better to do this withsomebody that's lived it, that's
worked it, to be able to engagein this recovery, healing
journey.
Because that's what it is,that's honestly what it is,
because those other people thatyou bring into your life, that
have those sales experiencesguess what?
They're your accountabilitypartners, so they can call you
(28:22):
out when they know you're justchecking the boxes or you're
shifting the blame or you're notengaging in the things that you
should be engaging in in agenuine, intentional way.
You really have to be able toaccept the fact that I have to
always work on this.
I have to always be able tostay in a state of righteousness
(28:46):
, not only with God, but alsowith my partner and with myself,
because at the end of the day,I know what I'm capable of doing
.
So if I don't have that levelof accountability from other
people, then how am I reallysupposed to navigate this?
So when you start seeing thecommitment in those things, it
(29:10):
will transform the way youbehave and the way you engage
within your relationship.
I think a lot of the timesthere's a struggle with the
emotional aspects of being ableto heal because there's so much,
there's just been so muchdamage.
Being able to hold space forone another and be able to share
(29:34):
from the hurt partner from thebetrayer, and just be able to
listen and gain a level ofunderstanding.
You don't always have to talkback or have a response, just
listen.
Just listen, hold space, youknow, and allow it to be a
reciprocal relationship whenit's reciprocal, not perfect but
(29:57):
when it's reciprocal and youfeel that your partner is
honestly and genuinely showingup.
It's not going to be all thetime.
We're just perfecting ourimperfections and we're always
going to do that.
You'll feel this, it'll show,you'll see it.
You will see it and you willfeel it.
It'll be a completely, it'll bea complete transformation to
(30:20):
what it was before, and thenyou'll be able to see like, oh,
we did have other areas in ourrelationship before all this
went this way that we weren'tengaging in like this.
So, it gives you a chance toreally level up in having a
healthy relationship, having afulfilled relationship with your
(30:44):
partner or your spouse yeah,that must be.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
That must be so great , kendra, to see couples and
individuals get to that pointwhen they realize those things
right and to be a part of that,um, and even for them as a group
, I'm guessing they're seeingthis progress and they're
encouraging each other and so on, right, yeah, you know one of
the.
I just saw this interview withanother guy I think he's a
(31:07):
comedian or some sort of actorof some sort and the interviewer
was asking him hey, did yourdivorce change your relationship
with God?
So I think he didn't become anatheist, but he kind of
distanced himself from god andis just kind of more of an
agnostic.
And with betrayal, I think alot of couples kind of enter
(31:29):
into the same realm of.
You know why did this happen tome?
We would go to church, weeverything right, we dated for
whatever amount of time.
So do you see theirrelationship with God also shift
?
You know, have you seen peopleleave their faith because of
this?
Or maybe it made their faithstronger?
Like what have you seen?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Seen both.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I've seen both and I've seen the ones that have
left the church.
It's been more so aroundbecause the church did not know
how to address this type ofissue, because the church is not
properly prepared and equippedto deal with this type of issue.
(32:11):
There's a lot of oh, you needto stay, you need to stay.
No, they don't have to stay ifthey don't want to.
We're not called to stay in arelationship where we're
continued to be mistreated,we're being cheated on, we're
being abused.
We're not.
God didn't call us to be inthat.
So you can't really forcesomething upon somebody or try
(32:33):
to weaponize.
I severely dislike when religionis weaponized and held over
someone's head when it comes tobeing in relationships.
I really don't like that.
So there's been a sense ofchurch hurt when it comes to the
(32:57):
couples that have sought outcounseling through the church
first before they've come to me,and it's been such a negative
experience that they strugglewith the relationship that they
have with God, the relationshipthat they have with the
Christian body.
It's just, there's just, it'sdeep, it's really deep and it's
(33:21):
unfortunate.
It really is, because whenyou're not equipped or you don't
have the knowledge to reallyunderstand, or the research or
the background to really be ableto address this issue, like I
said before, beyond thespiritual scope.
You kind of leave people.
They're looking to you Foranswers and you kind of just
(33:44):
give them this one and they'renot.
They're like this doesn't fitus this isn't a one size fits
all.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
It's really unfortunate.
But then I also have seen whencouples have experienced a sense
of a miracle reconciliation towhere God has been so
transformative in thisrelationship, where both have
seen and felt the presence ofGod, healing individually,
(34:18):
teaching them how to like Ishared earlier make space for
one another emotionally, evenwhen one or the other is
struggling, and being able tohave a grace and accountability.
I've seen both sides and it'ssuch an honor for God to bless
me with being able to see thatin so many different ways.
(34:40):
It doesn't just have to be fromChristian couples, it could be
couples just in general.
Just healing is is amazing,cause I know that it does come
from the father, it does comefrom within, and it's to be able
to be in the space to witnessit.
It's really amazing.
It takes time, but I can beable to encourage and motivate
(35:05):
and inspire couples that havebeen in the dark for so long
that there is hope.
Out there, there is light.
Just keep pushing forward.
You will eventually get there.
And to see that and being anoutsider looking in and be like
no, y'all are doing great.
Like yes, you have some bumpsin a row, but like, keep doing
whatever you're doing becauseit's working well, I don't feel
(35:26):
like well, I don't need you tofeel, I need to just keep keep
doing because it's not going toessentially feel good, it's not.
You're going to feel likeyou're dying.
And what?
What do we do within theChristian body?
We have to die to our flesh.
We have to die over and overand over again and shed all
these layers until we come to asense of acceptance that we are
(35:52):
not here for ourselves.
We are here to be examples oflight for other people, and your
story can shift somebody else'slife.
So once you've been able tounderstand that and accept that
you're not going to go throughthis forever, whether you stay
in the relationship or not,you're not going to go through
(36:14):
this forever.
You're still going to have todo healing, but that healing
helps someone.
It really will that's so good.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Wow, that's, that's so awesome.
I I really um and thankful thatyou're in the field and helping
couples with that and beingable to be a part of, uh, of
that process for them.
Because, you're right, it is aa very miraculous thing to see
the healing piece right, whetherit be for the marriage
individually.
You're right, it is a a verymiraculous thing to see the
healing piece right, whether itbe for the marriage individually
, but it's, it's a healing, it'sa miracle to witness.
(36:45):
It is, it's awesome yeah, um,kendra, do you have any final
thoughts on just betrayal traumain general, like a takeaway for
the audience?
Um regarding betrayal traumabetrayal trauma.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
It doesn't necessarily happen within those
intimate relationships.
Right, it can be familial, it'strue.
It can be friendships, beingable to set boundaries, set
boundaries and being okay with.
If this person is not adding toyour life, they do not have to
stay in your life.
(37:19):
They have to do the work just asmuch as you do, but that
doesn't mean that you allowyourself to be a dormant and
just be used, because what'sgoing to happen is as you
continue to grow and heal yourlevel of patience and being able
.
You can only give so much youcan give grace, but there's only
so much to where it's just likeokay, I think you're taking
(37:41):
advantage of me Right, right weteach people to treat us in that
.
Yeah, so being okay with if yougot to let them go, it's okay.
You don't owe anybody anything.
So being okay with being alonebut not lonely.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yes.
In whatever relationship it isyeah, so yeah, yeah I.
I just want to refer back to,as you were talking about giving
space, allowing for emotions tobe shared, this true
authenticity, just leavingeverything out in the open.
Um, if we're doing that in arelationship with God, then
there should be this transitionof can I do this in a
relationship with another person, even when they've hurt me?
(38:23):
Right, because sometimes wefeel that God allowed something
to happen, so we pull back, buthe still knows what's going on,
and so on, right, but I thinkthat was such an important point
that you mentioned abouteverything that we would do in a
relationship with God we wantto do in our relationship with
other people, right, and yeah, Imean, this is such an important
topic and I know we'vediscussed this already, but the
(38:46):
next topic or the next episodethat we're going to do is on
what is this whole process ofrestoration and redemption look
like after betrayal?
So we'll talk about that forour next episode.
Thank you for being here today.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Thank you Okay.
All right, everyone, welcome back to the God
Attachment Healing Podcast.
I'm excited for a couple ofepisodes and series that I have
going on this upcoming weeks,and tonight I have the privilege
of interviewing Ms Kendra King,and she's going to be talking
about betrayal and its traumaticeffects on a romantic partner
or spouse, and this is herspecialization.
(00:27):
This is what she does.
She's had a lot of years andshe's going to share a lot about
her credentials and experience.
And, kendra, thank you forbeing on the show today.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
So welcome, so welcome.
Thank you for having me.
This is an honor, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Absolutely.
You know, one of the thingsthat I don't don't know if it's
(01:01):
hard to do, but it's reallyencouraging to be able to meet
with other Christians in thespace of counseling, because I
think I don't know if this wasyour experience, but just kind
of the things that we seeregarding our faith ties in very
well to counseling, and thistopic that we're discussing
today is a very sensitive topicbecause we see it experienced in
a lot of relationships.
Right, so I'm excited to diveinto this topic, but before we
do, as always, thank you fortuning in.
(01:22):
For those of you who arelistening, remember to follow on
Instagram atGodAttachmentHealing, and also
follow us on Apple Podcasts andSpotify, and I'll allow for Ms
Kendra at the end to share anyresources or a way to contact
her if you guys need anything orjust have questions for her.
But yeah, let's go ahead anddive in.
(01:43):
Ms Kendra King, introduceyourself to the audience.
What's your background?
Where are you from?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Sure, so everyone.
I'm Kendra King.
I live and have been here foralmost 18 years, charlotte,
north Carolina.
My background has been inmental health and substance
abuse.
For 10 plus years, I startedspecializing in sex and porn
addiction, sex therapy andaffair recovery around 20, I
(02:14):
want to say 2019.
And so now I've had the ownerand lead therapist of my own
private practice, the HealingHeart Center.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
For the past, two years, I love that name.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
So, yes, yes, it's a combination of the group
practice.
I got exposed to this field andmy mentor, also supervisor, who
I got my certification fromit's the Heart to Heart
Counseling Center out inColorado, dr Doug Weiss.
(02:46):
He's been one of thecontributors to the sex and porn
addiction field and I did mysupervision directly under him.
So I kind of bridged the namesof the group practice I was at
and his practice, and thehealing heart center was born.
So yeah that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
That's awesome.
And what drew you to?
Was there something that drewyou to working with this
population?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
So, yes, I've always wanted to be an eclectic
therapist.
I always strive to be atherapist that was well-rounded,
well-versed, exposed todifferent types of subject
matter topics.
I wanted to be different and Iwanted to be connected
personally and professionally towhat it is that I specialized
(03:31):
in.
So when I found the grouppractice that I mentioned
earlier and the topics that theyjust talked about, I was just
like, oh, I didn't know, thiswas a thing, let me try this out
.
And then, once I got exposed, Ijust I fell in love.
I became super passionate and Ijust kind of just dived even
(03:52):
deeper into just being able tobring this to a platform such as
yours to just kind of sharewhat I've been exposed to
professionally, who I've workedwith and stuff like that, just
so, the audience and people justin society, christians, you
(04:13):
know, just people in general.
We don't talk about sex.
It's a very like you said,touchy topic, but everybody's
engaging in it, right?
It doesn't matter what yourfaith background is, who you
consider your higher power.
It's kind of one of thosethings that we, as human beings,
we're sexual.
So there there are healthy waysand then there's unhealthy ways
, and so I just I'm grateful tobe able to bridge the gap and be
(04:37):
able to give knowledge andunderstanding to something that
that that's really important andsomething that we all, you know
, need to be well informed aboutwhen it comes to just
interacting with one another.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Absolutely.
Do you work specifically withChristian clients or just all
types of clients?
Speaker 2 (04:58):
So I work with all types of clients.
I do have believers of thefaith, Christian folks that
identify themselves asChristians, but I do also have
individuals who are stillexploring or are just open so I
am able to apply the knowledgeto anyone really believers.
(05:29):
It's, it's it's really beingable to break the condemnation,
to break that kind of religiousstructure on what sexuality is,
what it's not, and kind of beable to give a better broad
understanding of, of being ableto know the difference, like
said, of healthy and unhealthy,and taking away that judgment,
because sometimes us asChristian, other Christian faith
(05:49):
, of believers, we can be reallyjudgmental and it's just like,
at the end of the day, all of usare people and so it doesn't
matter what you feel you know issaying there is no hierarchy,
there is a level of you need tojust own your stuff.
Just own your stuff and work onit and work through it.
(06:09):
So no pointing fingers here,it's all.
Let's just be better and let'sdo better.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
Yeah, and especially with a topic like this, right,
it's one of those things and youtouched on it, this idea of
shame and condemnation, andthat's why I feel like it's such
an important piece forChristians to address.
So you know, as we jump intothis topic, so I guess, just for
the audience, what is betrayaltrauma?
Right, we hear you know there'scheating, there's betrayal of
(06:37):
emotions, there's different waysto cheat nowadays.
So when you talk about betrayaltrauma, what is it that you're
referring to exactly?
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Well, like you said, sam, it is all those things.
It could be emotional, it couldbe mental, it could be physical
, it could be sexual, it couldreally be anything.
Anything that violates theboundaries and the trust between
you and your partner or yourspouse.
That is what betrayal traumaconsists of.
It's very broad.
It can look like differentthings, especially if there is
(07:11):
not an established or an openline of communication on what
are the boundaries.
What are we able to do inregards to engaging with the
opposite sex?
In regards to engaging in porn.
In regards to gauging anemotional connection with other
people, what does that look likeand how do we define that and
how can we have an openconversation to be able to
explore those without beingdefensive, without feeling the
(07:31):
need to hide?
I think there's just a lack ofthe foundational establishment
of communication because, rightlike it's this invasive kind of
thing like, oh, you're trying tocontrol me or you're trying to
tell me what to do, or whateverthe case may be, it's just like
no, I just, I just I don't wantto be hurt, I don't want to hurt
you.
So let's just kind of come tothe table and talk about what,
(07:55):
what are things that arenegotiable, what are
non-negotiables, and and let'skind of move forward in an open
dialogue when it comes to thosethings, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
So it sounds like there's an assumption on both
partners that we know whatcheating is, we know what
betrayal is and we're justmoving through life and then,
when it happens, like, oh, whyis this a problem?
So I think what I heard waspeople just don't really
communicate about it openly,like, hey, what are your
boundaries here?
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Yeah, it is, it's a big thing.
A big thing that couples cometo me about is communication.
Communicating about emotions orassumptions.
Like you assume that I'm doingthis as opposed to just asking
me, or there's behaviors thathave been discovered, whatever
the case may be.
Really just communication.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, yeah.
And what's a common?
What's a common theme that youfind with the clients that
you're working with?
I know we mentioned porn, butis that the common theme or is
there other things?
Speaker 2 (08:59):
So there are other things as well.
Not all of them consist of porn.
They consist of having intimateconversations with other people
, such as emotionalconversations.
You can talk to other peopleabout how you feel, but you
can't talk to me.
There's a lack of understanding.
(09:26):
I feel like I'm going to keepthese things to myself, because
when I do share, you know I feelattacked or I feel dismissed or
unheard unseen.
It's just a variety of thingsthat kind of sum up this type of
misunderstanding.
Really, you know, and, like Isaid, it all comes with
communication, so it can show upin different types of ways.
(09:48):
There's not always the sexualbetrayal, it's not always porn
use.
And I've discovered that you'reusing porn.
You didn't tell me about this.
Who are you?
It's not always like that, butit still has the same impact,
which consists of betrayaltrauma.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
Okay, no, that consists of betrayal trauma.
Okay, no, that's good to know.
So when people don't talk aboutthis, what is I guess?
What is it?
Why does it happen in romanticrelationships?
I know we're talking aboutcommunication piece.
Are there like any type oftriggers that started, Because
most people, I think, the firstcouple of years it seems like
(10:25):
there's open communication, butthen life happens, they have
kids, there's change in jobs,there's moving, so it sounds
like those are barriers tocommunication because it becomes
overwhelming.
But are there any specifictriggers that you would say?
You know what, when people gothrough this, they need to be
extra careful about potentiallybetraying each other, because
(10:47):
there's some, some situationthat kind of set that up for.
For people.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
Yeah, Stress, stress is the biggest one you know and
being able to feel emotionallysafe to to share the emotions
and the vulnerability of whatstress influences.
It could stem from childhood,it can happen in adolescence, it
could really happen anywhere,to be honest, but it's really a
(11:14):
sense of I feel stressed, Idon't know how to cope in a
healthy way.
So I am going to engage inbehaviors that may or may not be
appropriate, that I may sharewith you.
I may not you know and and thosekind of set kind of the path up
to where you start drifting offand detaching from your partner
(11:38):
and engaging potentially inthese unhealthy behaviors.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
So if people don't have good responses to stress,
they're more prone to, or atleast open to, betrayal.
You have an outlet to support.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
It doesn't necessarily have to be a
significant other or your spouse, somebody.
I need you to talk to someone,because when you internalize all
these experiences, you're justsetting yourself up to ruminate,
to overthink, and you becomeeven more overwhelmed with
what's going on and you're justkind of festering within and you
don't have anywhere for it tobe let out.
(12:16):
And then it's just like, oh,and if you do have a background
in unhealthy sexual behaviors orunhealthy compulsive sexual
behaviors, then your go-to is,oh, I feel, I feel stressed, I
need to release, I need to to,to sense or soothe myself.
Let me just do this right quick, and then it's a quick fix
(12:37):
instead of really dealing withthe root of the issue.
Speaker 1 (12:41):
Yeah, yeah, that's, that's, that's a, that is a
common experience, and I wonder,as I read a lot of research on
the aspect of trauma and howthose ruptures happen in
attachments within relationships.
So, for you, what are somecommon symptoms that you see
from betrayal?
Because people, to your point,people experience it differently
(13:03):
, because some communicate andthey have, they each have
different boundaries for what'sconsidered cheating, what's not.
So what are some things thatyou see in your clients that are
oh yeah, this is a strongsymptom of being betrayed.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
PTSD for sure, that's number one.
So hypervigilant, being in astate of panic like the shoe's
about to drop, or not being ableto feel comfortable when your
partner's not around.
So you've discovered things andy'all talked about them, but
it's just like, oh, I still feelthis sense of fear or
(13:38):
apprehension.
Internalization is a big onetoo, being able to not take on
the blame.
I'm not enough, I'm notsexually what he wants or what
she wants, whatever the case maybe.
So it's really an internal kindof self-destruction breakdown of
(14:00):
the person you know, being ableto show up in relationships,
being able to share what's goingon, a sense of hiding and
secrecy.
Can't talk to your family,can't talk to your friends.
They're not going to understand.
They may potentially judge.
You don't want to feel shame orguilt either.
Stand, they may potentiallyjudge.
(14:21):
You don't want to feel shame orguilt either.
You may potentially try tocarry this on your own.
There's just so many things, butptsd is definitely the biggest
one, and also being able to helpthe person who is betrayed
understand and accept the factthat this is not just going to
heal overnight.
There's this thing of you needto go get fixed.
(14:43):
You need to go talk to somebody.
This is your issue.
You need to fix it becauseyou're the one that caused the
betrayal, when, in actuality,they also need to be addressed
too.
Their stuff needs to beaddressed too, because there's
this sense of well, if you goget better and you go work out
(15:04):
your issue, then you can make mefeel better, and that's not the
case.
You still have to do your ownwork.
So internalizing PTSD,hypervigilant, a lot of lack of
trust, engaging in like kind ofwhat we call acting in as
opposed to acting out,overeating, sleeping, just
(15:27):
disconnected in life.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And is that something that isnoticed by people around them?
Or, you know, because we do agood job of showing others that
everything is okay, especiallyin Christian circles right, the
idea of no, we're good, you know, and we got to wrestle with
this ourselves, so it's almostlike the there's a a I don't
(15:51):
know if I wouldn't say itthere's a secret among the
couple.
Like, we know that this ishappening in our marriage and we
don't want to feel that shame,so we're not going to share with
anyone, but we also don't knowhow to deal with it.
So it kind of becomes a cycleof not really dealing with it,
just living in it.
Right.
And I wonder what do yourecommend for clients who are in
that situation?
Or do you see that often withclients that you're working with
(16:14):
?
Speaker 2 (16:14):
I do see I haven't seen specifically where they're
they are intentionally showingup with a mask on.
However, they want it to remainin house as much as possible,
more public or more connectedfamilially with friends and
(16:38):
stuff like that family, whateverthe case may be.
There could be a sense of we'regoing to mask this and we're
going to figure this out andwe're not going to let this leak
out.
Because if they say, if they'rea high profile couple or
they're in a leadership type ofrole in whatever capacity,
showing that there is a there'sa fault, there's a fault,
(17:00):
there's an area of weaknesswithin the institution, who,
within the relationship, couldcause other people to make
assumptions, make judgments,whatever the case may be, and
there's this image there's thisimage that they want to protect
and it's just like no, no, Ineed you to, I need you to work
on.
And it's just like no, no, Ineed you to.
I need you to work on thatbecause, as these people, I tell
(17:23):
clients all the time that wehave different, we have
different masks or differentideas of self.
Right, you got your public self, you got your actual self, and
then you got your real selfsomewhere in there.
We got to figure out which onewe're going to engage in and
we're going to have to be ableto show up in that.
Nobody everybody don't need toknow your business.
(17:44):
However, I need you toacknowledge what's going on.
You can't just hide, becauseyou're essentially dying and
dimming inside.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Wow, yeah, yeah, that's true.
And do you find that they putup a wall or they resist that,
like it sounds like there's ahuge denial, that it's a big
problem or that it's even anissue at all?
Speaker 2 (18:12):
There's a lot of compartmentalization, more so
from the betrayer as opposed tothe betrayed.
But there can be some in thebetrayed too.
Like I said before, this isyour issue.
You need to go work that out.
I didn't do anything, but yetyou're still feeling all these
(18:33):
things because of the actionsthat were taken and made.
So it really, it really depends, sam.
Everybody shows up differentand it looks different, but it's
important that the audienceunderstands that this is a vast.
This is a vast thing and it canlook like anything, but it all
(18:54):
feels the same.
It's all a sense of betrayal.
It's all a sense of secrecy andviolation, mistrust.
There's communication issues inthere already too, so it's just
so many packed on layers.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
that's coming to mind is just the idea of being open
and talking about it with witheach other, that it's better to
be open than to be hiding it.
Yes, but it sounds like I thinkone of the things that I've
heard clients share is that,well, if I share, then things
(19:34):
are just going to get worse.
And do you find that it doesget worse but then it gets
better?
Or is it just kind of likethat's the end of it all and
that's it?
People just want to give up onthe marriage.
Like, what do you see regardingthat when people start to share
or they open up the first time?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
So the level of vulnerability is a big barrier
because it's just like well, ifI'm vulnerable, I'm just leaving
myself up to get open or hurtagain.
Because it's just like well, ifI'm vulnerable, I'm just
leaving myself up to get open orI hurt again, and it's just
like well.
That's not necessarily the case, but at the end of the day, you
know, yes, that may happen, butthen it may not.
You know, all you can do isfocus on what you can control.
(20:12):
Cause, at the end of the day,if you want to save your
marriage and you want to stay init, you're going to have to
show.
You're still going to have todo your part, even though you
were the one portrayed.
So you know you have to get rid.
A big thing is getting rid ofthe expectations, like I was
talking about the timeframe ofwhen is this hurry?
This is going to hurry up andbe over with.
It doesn't work like that.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
It's going to always be there.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
It's always be there.
It's being able to lower that,that voice, that that.
What are they doing?
Do you think they're like, likeall those negative thoughts,
those internalizations, beingable to quiet that down because
it's not going nowhere, becauseit happened?
You can forgive, but you ain'tgonna forgive and you're gonna
essentially have triggers thatit doesn't matter how long y'all
healed together, healedseparately or whatever the case
may be, you can still gettriggered.
(21:04):
That could still happen out ofanywhere.
You know what I'm saying, soyou know.
Just toss the expectations yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
So it's good for the, for the audience to know that
even as you're healing or asyou're working through this,
that doesn't mean that iteliminates those feelings that
can still come up.
So I guess that jumps into ournext question of okay, so what
does healing look like forsomeone who has experienced
betrayal trauma?
What does that process looklike for them?
(21:32):
You mentioned there's no realtimeline, right?
I can't hurry this process up,but we've often heard the
concept of people hurt inrelationship and they also heal
in relationship.
Do you have any thoughts aboutthat?
Because it sounds like thiswould be a two person thing,
like in order for that person toheal, both need to work and
(21:55):
it's not something that you cando individually.
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Right.
So I am a firm believer youhave to start with yourself.
The betrayer has to start withthemselves.
You have to figure out whereyou kind of went wrong or where
did this all start to lead upinto this, and then be able to
(22:21):
work with the portrayed to healthose things right giving
context, giving explanations,giving knowledge, giving
background, really openingyourself that vulnerability and
sharing fully sharing andletting go of the sense of shame
and guilt because it's alreadybrought you this far.
So you know your best bet ifyou want to heal yourself is
(22:44):
start being honest with yourselfreally yeah so same with the,
with the betrayed.
Individual work.
Take accountability for thethings that you recognize.
You did Not to influence thebetrayer's actions, but just how
(23:06):
did you honestly show up in therelationship?
Were you emotionally safe totalk to?
Were you vulnerable?
Did you make time?
Were you intentional?
Were you present?
Were you make time?
Were you intentional?
Were you present?
Were you sexually engaged, like?
Really take inventory on howyou showed up in this
relationship, because it'salways a sense of you want to
(23:27):
shift, everybody wants to shiftthe blame.
The betrayer wants to shift theblame, the betrayed wants to
shift the blame.
Now both of y'all need to takeaccountability, because both of
y'all played a part into whathas happened.
Yeah, yeah.
And that's just really what itis.
I think there's sometimesthere's a sense of denial that
(23:49):
it's it's both parties false.
Right.
It may not have been one person,may not have done as extreme as
the other, but still like therewas a disconnect somewhere,
there was a detachment somewhere.
Something happened somewhere.
You didn't just, you know,happen to just fall into this
(24:13):
thing.
Something happened and it'sokay to hold yourself
accountability.
Accountable.
I would hope so.
I would hope you do that as anindividual outside of a
relationship yeah, yeah so it'sjust being able to be honest
with oneself and really, reallychecking it?
did I?
Was I really, was I really thebest partner?
(24:36):
I could possibly be not takingon the, the actions that you
know the betrayed engaged in.
But was did I really show up?
Could I've been better?
Could I've done more?
yeah I think sometimes we don'treally evaluate our sense of
performance, and when I sayperformance I don't mean like
dates and in materialistic,surface level stuff.
(25:00):
I mean as as being able toreally show up in a human sense
yeah being able to provide thatemotional security, to have the
open communication, to be honestand transparent.
You know what I'm saying.
Like, there's just, there's justdifferent ways of being able to
(25:21):
engage in a healthy way inrelationships and we're not
taught that, especially aschristians yeah especially as
christians, we, we kind of shiftaway from the humanistic side
and kind of stick strictly tothe spiritual, and it's just
like you are a spiritual beinghaving a human experience.
I need you to acknowledge both,I need you to work out both you
(25:45):
know, what I'm saying.
Like you can't just put one ona higher pedestal than the other
.
It doesn't work like that.
Just as much as you feed yourspirit, you need to feed your
human, your humanity as well, ina healthy way, right?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yeah.
It's only fair, that's so true,and that's a great point too,
because I think, yeah, you'reright.
In Christian circles they sayif you address the spiritual
piece, then that's going toaffect the other parts.
But similarly, if the physicalor the emotional is not
addressed, that also affects howone feels spiritually.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
How can you show up with God?
Speaker 1 (26:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
How?
If you don't acknowledge thatyou have weaknesses, you have
weaknesses and you have tosurrender.
You have to surrender andaccept that you need help in
these areas.
In order to be able to, youhave to be vulnerable for the
Father.
You have to be able to bringall, have to be vulnerable for
the father.
You have to be able to bringall.
(26:41):
You know like you got to do thesame thing.
You just can't have one withoutthe other.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
No, that's such a great point.
When people are expecting achange, do you often find and
you've already mentioned thisthis idea of taking personal
accountability.
Okay, what did I do wrong, whatcould I do differently, how can
I own my emotions, own mythoughts, and so on.
So when people are restoringthe relationship or trying to
(27:08):
come back to healing therelationship, what are some
evidences of that?
So, people who are listening,they usually want to rush the
process right, but we can't.
The healing process just takestime and it's an ongoing journey
.
So what would you say is somethings that people can look at,
(27:28):
that show or demonstrate.
Hey, you know what, If you seethese things in you or in your
relationship, then you're movingtowards healing and there's
hope.
So what does that look like forclients?
Speaker 2 (27:38):
So, how we talked about the individual therapy and
we talked about couples therapy, the next level would be group
therapy, being able to connectwith others that have shared
experiences, and not just so youcan put your business out there
.
And it's not about that.
We cannot do this alone, youcannot heal on your own, and
(28:01):
it's better to do this withsomebody that's lived it, that's
worked it, to be able to engagein this recovery, healing
journey.
Because that's what it is,that's honestly what it is,
because those other people thatyou bring into your life, that
have those sales experiencesguess what?
They're your accountabilitypartners, so they can call you
(28:22):
out when they know you're justchecking the boxes or you're
shifting the blame or you're notengaging in the things that you
should be engaging in in agenuine, intentional way.
You really have to be able toaccept the fact that I have to
always work on this.
I have to always be able tostay in a state of righteousness
(28:46):
, not only with God, but alsowith my partner and with myself,
because at the end of the day,I know what I'm capable of doing
.
So if I don't have that levelof accountability from other
people, then how am I reallysupposed to navigate this?
So when you start seeing thecommitment in those things, it
(29:10):
will transform the way youbehave and the way you engage
within your relationship.
I think a lot of the timesthere's a struggle with the
emotional aspects of being ableto heal because there's so much,
there's just been so muchdamage.
Being able to hold space forone another and be able to share
(29:34):
from the hurt partner from thebetrayer, and just be able to
listen and gain a level ofunderstanding.
You don't always have to talkback or have a response, just
listen.
Just listen, hold space, youknow, and allow it to be a
reciprocal relationship whenit's reciprocal, not perfect but
(29:57):
when it's reciprocal and youfeel that your partner is
honestly and genuinely showingup.
It's not going to be all thetime.
We're just perfecting ourimperfections and we're always
going to do that.
You'll feel this, it'll show,you'll see it.
You will see it and you willfeel it.
It'll be a completely, it'll bea complete transformation to
(30:20):
what it was before, and thenyou'll be able to see like, oh,
we did have other areas in ourrelationship before all this
went this way that we weren'tengaging in like this.
So, it gives you a chance toreally level up in having a
healthy relationship, having afulfilled relationship with your
(30:44):
partner or your spouse yeah,that must be.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
That must be so great , kendra, to see couples and
individuals get to that pointwhen they realize those things
right and to be a part of that,um, and even for them as a group
, I'm guessing they're seeingthis progress and they're
encouraging each other and so on, right, yeah, you know one of
the.
I just saw this interview withanother guy I think he's a
(31:07):
comedian or some sort of actorof some sort and the interviewer
was asking him hey, did yourdivorce change your relationship
with God?
So I think he didn't become anatheist, but he kind of
distanced himself from god andis just kind of more of an
agnostic.
And with betrayal, I think alot of couples kind of enter
(31:29):
into the same realm of.
You know why did this happen tome?
We would go to church, weeverything right, we dated for
whatever amount of time.
So do you see theirrelationship with God also shift
?
You know, have you seen peopleleave their faith because of
this?
Or maybe it made their faithstronger?
Like what have you seen?
Speaker 2 (31:48):
Seen both.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (31:49):
I've seen both and I've seen the ones that have
left the church.
It's been more so aroundbecause the church did not know
how to address this type ofissue, because the church is not
properly prepared and equippedto deal with this type of issue.
(32:11):
There's a lot of oh, you needto stay, you need to stay.
No, they don't have to stay ifthey don't want to.
We're not called to stay in arelationship where we're
continued to be mistreated,we're being cheated on, we're
being abused.
We're not.
God didn't call us to be inthat.
So you can't really forcesomething upon somebody or try
(32:33):
to weaponize.
I severely dislike when religionis weaponized and held over
someone's head when it comes tobeing in relationships.
I really don't like that.
So there's been a sense ofchurch hurt when it comes to the
(32:57):
couples that have sought outcounseling through the church
first before they've come to me,and it's been such a negative
experience that they strugglewith the relationship that they
have with God, the relationshipthat they have with the
Christian body.
It's just, there's just, it'sdeep, it's really deep and it's
(33:21):
unfortunate.
It really is, because whenyou're not equipped or you don't
have the knowledge to reallyunderstand, or the research or
the background to really be ableto address this issue, like I
said before, beyond thespiritual scope.
You kind of leave people.
They're looking to you Foranswers and you kind of just
(33:44):
give them this one and they'renot.
They're like this doesn't fitus this isn't a one size fits
all.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
It's really unfortunate.
But then I also have seen whencouples have experienced a sense
of a miracle reconciliation towhere God has been so
transformative in thisrelationship, where both have
seen and felt the presence ofGod, healing individually,
(34:18):
teaching them how to like Ishared earlier make space for
one another emotionally, evenwhen one or the other is
struggling, and being able tohave a grace and accountability.
I've seen both sides and it'ssuch an honor for God to bless
me with being able to see thatin so many different ways.
(34:40):
It doesn't just have to be fromChristian couples, it could be
couples just in general.
Just healing is is amazing,cause I know that it does come
from the father, it does comefrom within, and it's to be able
to be in the space to witnessit.
It's really amazing.
It takes time, but I can beable to encourage and motivate
(35:05):
and inspire couples that havebeen in the dark for so long
that there is hope.
Out there, there is light.
Just keep pushing forward.
You will eventually get there.
And to see that and being anoutsider looking in and be like
no, y'all are doing great.
Like yes, you have some bumpsin a row, but like, keep doing
whatever you're doing becauseit's working well, I don't feel
(35:26):
like well, I don't need you tofeel, I need to just keep keep
doing because it's not going toessentially feel good, it's not.
You're going to feel likeyou're dying.
And what?
What do we do within theChristian body?
We have to die to our flesh.
We have to die over and overand over again and shed all
these layers until we come to asense of acceptance that we are
(35:52):
not here for ourselves.
We are here to be examples oflight for other people, and your
story can shift somebody else'slife.
So once you've been able tounderstand that and accept that
you're not going to go throughthis forever, whether you stay
in the relationship or not,you're not going to go through
(36:14):
this forever.
You're still going to have todo healing, but that healing
helps someone.
It really will that's so good.
Speaker 1 (36:23):
Wow, that's, that's so awesome.
I I really um and thankful thatyou're in the field and helping
couples with that and beingable to be a part of, uh, of
that process for them.
Because, you're right, it is aa very miraculous thing to see
the healing piece right, whetherit be for the marriage
individually.
You're right, it is a a verymiraculous thing to see the
healing piece right, whether itbe for the marriage individually
, but it's, it's a healing, it'sa miracle to witness.
(36:45):
It is, it's awesome yeah, um,kendra, do you have any final
thoughts on just betrayal traumain general, like a takeaway for
the audience?
Um regarding betrayal traumabetrayal trauma.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
It doesn't necessarily happen within those
intimate relationships.
Right, it can be familial, it'strue.
It can be friendships, beingable to set boundaries, set
boundaries and being okay with.
If this person is not adding toyour life, they do not have to
stay in your life.
(37:19):
They have to do the work just asmuch as you do, but that
doesn't mean that you allowyourself to be a dormant and
just be used, because what'sgoing to happen is as you
continue to grow and heal yourlevel of patience and being able
.
You can only give so much youcan give grace, but there's only
so much to where it's just likeokay, I think you're taking
(37:41):
advantage of me Right, right weteach people to treat us in that
.
Yeah, so being okay with if yougot to let them go, it's okay.
You don't owe anybody anything.
So being okay with being alonebut not lonely.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yes.
In whatever relationship it isyeah, so yeah, yeah I.
I just want to refer back to,as you were talking about giving
space, allowing for emotions tobe shared, this true
authenticity, just leavingeverything out in the open.
Um, if we're doing that in arelationship with God, then
there should be this transitionof can I do this in a
relationship with another person, even when they've hurt me?
(38:23):
Right, because sometimes wefeel that God allowed something
to happen, so we pull back, buthe still knows what's going on,
and so on, right, but I thinkthat was such an important point
that you mentioned abouteverything that we would do in a
relationship with God we wantto do in our relationship with
other people, right, and yeah, Imean, this is such an important
topic and I know we'vediscussed this already, but the
(38:46):
next topic or the next episodethat we're going to do is on
what is this whole process ofrestoration and redemption look
like after betrayal?
So we'll talk about that forour next episode.
Thank you for being here today.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Thank you Okay.
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