April 17, 2024 • 55 mins
Send Me Questions on Attachment
Have you ever felt the weight of shame in your spiritual journey, wondering how it affects your relationship with the divine? Dr. James Honeycutt joins us to navigate the delicate interplay between shame, faith, and identity. Together, we peel back the layers of this complex emotion, from its biblical roots in the Garden of Eden to its impact on our modern lives. Discover how shame can both challenge and deepen your connection with God, and find out why understanding the difference between guilt and shame is crucial for your spiritual well-being.
Embarking on a candid discussion, we share personal stories that reveal how early life experiences and parental relationships cast long shadows over our openness to the Gospel. Dr. Honeycutt, with his profound insights, helps us tread the fine line between healthy self-reflection and the paralyzing effects of shame. We also tackle the sensitive subject of church discipline, balancing the need for accountability with the nurturing of a compassionate community. Learn how to foster an environment where vulnerability meets emotional safety, allowing for genuine transformation.
Wrapping up, we delve into the vital role of social norms like confession and transparency within trusted circles, addressing the psychological underpinnings and potential pitfalls of oversharing in an age of social media. As we ponder the cultural narrative around shame and its place in personal growth, Dr. Honeycutt's expertise shines a light on the importance of discernment and maturity in our faith walk. We close with an invitation for you to join the conversation, welcoming your questions on living an authentic Christian life amidst the challenges of shame.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
All right, welcome back to the God Attachment
Healing Podcast everyone.
If you have been joining forquite a while, thank you Because
you know this podcast.
When I first started itactually it was called Create to
Connect and then it moved tothe Genesis of Shame, which is
interestingly, the topic thatwe're going to discuss today,
(00:28):
and then now, obviously, godAttachment Healing, and so it's
been great.
It's been a really goodlearning experience and I've
been able to interview somegreat people, like my friend
here, dr James Honeycutt, andwe're going to talk about the
impact of shame on one'srelationship with God, the
positive and the negative impactof shame on one's relationship
(00:48):
with God, the positive and thenegative.
And I guess, thinking aboutthat, like, what are the
positive effects of shame in ourrelationship with God, or the
negative effects of that, andwe'll talk a little bit about
that.
But before we begin, if youhave been listening to the
podcast, please leave a review,share with your friends, share
this episode.
I think this one's going to beone that Christians are going to
want to tune into, becausethere is a lot of shame attached
to one's Christian walk,whether that be because of past
(01:12):
mistakes, whether it be becauseof, maybe, something that's
currently happening in theirlives, or maybe just feeling
rejected by God because of thebad things that they have done.
So yeah, so we're going to jumpinto this topic feeling
rejected by God because of thebad things that they have done.
So, yeah, so we're gonna jumpinto this topic.
(01:32):
The shame the positive impactsand the negative impacts of
shame in our relationship withGod.
Jim, what came to mind you knowI presented this is not
something we've talked aboutbefore.
This is something that's new,maybe, to our conversation about
this, and I'm wondering whatpopped into your mind when I
talked about the positive andnegative impacts of shame.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
First of all edit out .
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Jim, because I don't go by, jim, you said Jim, did I
say Jim what I didn't say James,no, you said Jim, I never call
you, jim, I don't Wow.
No, it's James.
Yeah, please.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
If you're going to do that, do it privately not when
you're doing a podcast, wheneveryone's going to start
calling you that.
So, yeah, so obviously, theidea of shame you're you're
mentioning it, like we presumethere is a positive as well as a
negative aspect to shame aswell.
So I think that also somethingelse to keep in mind.
Mind.
It's going to matter based onthe person's upbringing, right,
cultural christian denominationsyep, some of them are going to
(02:31):
accent that a little bit morethan others.
Uh, yeah, it's a big topic andit's one that we see a lot, of
course people coming intocounseling, uh, struggling with
guilt, struggling with whetheror not they can embrace a faith,
if they're even worthy to havea relationship, or to be a
Christian or whatever it may be.
(02:51):
That is something we seefrequently.
So I agree, it is a problem.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, yeah, definitely a problem.
In the Christian life and evenoutside of Christianity as well.
People know what shame feelslike.
People know what shame feelslike.
People know what guilt feelslike, and the way that I usually
distinguish them is guilt isthe acknowledgement that I've
done something wrong.
I did something wrong and I'mfeeling bad about that, and
(03:18):
shame is saying that you arethat thing, whatever it is that
you are, so you take it on as anidentity.
And Brene Brown talks aboutthis.
So she's done a lot of researchon that aspect of shame and she
says basically that those are Iam statements, I am this evil
action that I did right.
(03:38):
So I think, when we talk aboutshame within our relationship
with God, we got to go back tothe Garden of Eden and see what
happened there.
Can you give us a just a briefsummary of how sin entered the
world and then we can go fromthere and feedback on what shame
looks like.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Well, I think all of us will remember, you know, kind
of Christianity 101, the senseof we were created to be in
relationship with God and wewere given everything available
to us.
But, as in any relationship,there are boundaries, and God
expressed this boundary as faras what our ancestral parents
were to do and the things theyweren't to do, and as we have
(04:21):
struggled throughout ourexistence, humanity wants to be
God without God, right, and sothis idea of easily deceived by
the serpent in the garden and weread about this in the first
chapters of Genesis, whenhumanity was deceived and
essentially brought sin, death,suffering, into the world, but
(04:46):
breaking that relationship withGod.
It looks like you got yourBible pulled up.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah, I wanted to kind of read this passage.
So we're made for relationshipwith God.
Then Eve and Adam and Eve eatfrom the fruit.
And then what happens afterthat?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
God seeks them out, they recognize immediately, of
course, that something haschanged, something ontological
has changed within their person,and they recognize their
nakedness for one thing.
And so there's immediately thissense of things have changed,
things have shifted within themas people.
We read shortly thereafter thatGod is seeking them out in the
(05:27):
garden, and there's thisexchange of course with placing
blame, as we're very good atdoing, and of course you know,
adam blames the woman, the womanblames the serpent, and then,
of course, god basically relaysto them, as a result of these
choices here, the consequencesthat you've brought upon
yourselves.
And so that, of course, beginsthis very long story, which
(05:49):
lasts throughout all ofscripture, of God working to
redeem humanity from choicesthat they have made, and
humanity experiencing theconsequences of our actions in
various ways, whether it'snatural disasters and disease
and death, whether it is our ownanimosity towards our fellow
man and then also withinourselves and, of course, the
(06:11):
demonic forces as well.
So we fight these battles onall these fronts.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I wanted to read throughthis passage in Genesis 3
because that's obviously wherethis starts.
And again, I mentioned thisearlier.
But the second podcast theystarted was called the Genesis
of Shame and it stemmed fromthis aspect of what happened at
the Garden of Eden, and I'mgoing to read from verse 8,
(06:40):
because that's where this aspectof how shame influences our
relationship with God.
You know, you mentioned God'ssoftened out.
Look what they did in verse 8.
And they heard the sound of theLord walking in the garden in
the cool of the day, and thenman and his wife hid themselves
from the presence of the Lord,god, among the trees of the
garden.
(07:01):
So this is essentially whathappens when we experience shame
.
So, for those of us who arebelievers in Christ, when we
experience shame, what it does?
It moves us to hide ourselvesor to run away from God, because
it takes on this aspect ofwhatever it is that I did.
God can't forgive me for that,because it is exactly who I am
(07:21):
Right, and this is where a lotof Christians confuse guilt with
shame.
When we do, when we sin againstGod, we are convicted by the
Holy Spirit, which should leadus to repentance, which means
that we have to then seek outGod.
God's there, he's waiting.
He may even come to us, as wesee here in the Garden of Eden.
(07:42):
But if we take on this aspect ofshame here in the Garden of
Eden, but if we take on thisaspect of shame where we now say
, this is unforgivable, this iswho I am.
God cannot change me, he cannotforgive me for what I've done,
that's going to push you awayfrom God.
It says verse 9,.
But the Lord, god, called tothe man and said to him where
are you?
And he said I heard the soundof you in the garden and I was
(08:02):
afraid because I was naked and Ihid myself.
Again there's this fear thatGod's going to respond a certain
way and again it kind of movesus into this aspect of hiding
and I think that's what shamedoes.
It makes us hide ourselves fromthe light, because the light
exposes something about us.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that you know and ofcourse we read about that in the
New Testament this idea ofthose who live in darkness want
to remain in darkness becausewhen they are exposed to the
light, then their deeds becomerevealed before everyone else.
So I like how you'recategorizing the difference
between guilt and shame, andI've heard that expressed before
in other podcasts and readingsand things like that.
(08:44):
Do you think, in light of whatyou're saying and maybe this is
something we're going to get toin a moment, but it sounds like
guilt you would understand thenis justifiable guilt where we
acknowledge and recognize that abreach has occurred in law,
relationship something like thatsecular or spiritual and we
(09:04):
feel what would be anappropriate reaction to it and
then, as you said, seek to makechanges for restitution as a
result.
That's healthy guilt.
Shame is more, as you said,personalized, so kind of keeping
that in mind, in the sense ofthe distinction there, when
would you ever say shame wouldbe healthy?
Or would you ever say that Good.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
So this would be this positive aspect of shame and
this negative aspect of shame.
So you said you want to knowthe positive aspect of shame.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah, because based on the way that you categorized
it and I've heard that beforeand I like it.
I'm maybe initially kind ofwondering where you're going
with this as far as how we'regoing to get around to any
potential positive aspects ofshame.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's good.
So what are some of the commonshame messages that people often
hear, especially when it comesto our relationship with God?
Is this aspect of I am brokenor I am not good?
And then we include one ofprobably the most common one
that's used not good enough,right?
And we had to look at wherethose messages stem from.
(10:10):
And again, because we'respeaking about God attachment,
we go back to attachment and welook at how one's relationship
with their parents kind offormulated this idea that
someone is not good enough, orthat they are worthless, or that
they're unlovable, right?
So that's kind of this idealike if someone disobeys their
parents, right, they feel badbecause they were disobedient.
(10:31):
But then there's other aspectof I'm unlovable because I was
disobedient.
So they take on this identityof being unlovable because they
were disobedient and again,maybe the parents would push
them away when they weredisobedient.
They didn't want to connectwith them.
So then, as they grow older,they start to see their
relationship with God in thatsame way I did something wrong
(10:51):
against God, I committed a sin,sam, I don't deserve to be in
God's presence, god doesn'treally love.
So they take on that aspect.
Now, when can it actually bepositive?
The only time, or probably oneof the most crucial times, is
when someone is not a believerbecause they take on that part
of their identity where they'resaying, because of these things,
(11:13):
I'm unlovable.
They're in the perfect positionto be able to receive the
gospel, god's message.
That has been different fromanyone else.
As Christians we have adifferent understanding of God,
so I don't know if it's going toplay to that strength.
Like I'm not, I understand Goddifferently than someone who is
not a Christian because we'reindwelt by the Holy Spirit.
(11:34):
But I'm curious to hear kind ofyour thoughts on is that a
clear enough distinction betweenthe two, where only those who
are not believers, they take onso many different identities.
Right In the sense of I, amthis right?
One of the things you see, Iguess, with AA meetings is I'm
an alcoholic or a recoveringalcoholic, so kind of this
(11:56):
identity piece that matters tothem which then moves them
towards change.
Right, keeps them humble andkeeps them humble.
So there's this aspect too.
Does that keep me humble in myrelationship with God, where I
don't think of myself as holierthan thou?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I appreciate you kind of breaking that down because
it reminded me of a story when Iwas shortly after I became a
Christian.
There was a young lady that Iknew and worked with and I was
excited as a new Christian ofwas a young lady that I knew and
worked with and I was excitedas a new Christian, of course,
sharing my faith and talkingabout it, and she tolerated me
for a little bit and she finallyturned around and said I don't
need God.
My life is good.
(12:36):
And that was shocking because,you know, of course, I was very
excited to have found God in myearly 20s and, you know, I was
having my whole way ofconceptualizing things change,
and so when she said that, itkind of dawned on me to your
point, sometimes we have to bein that place of brokenness
(12:56):
before we can humble ourselvesand be open to maybe there's
more to it, or maybe I need tolook outside of myself for this
sense of fulfillment.
Um, you know, of course, tolook outside of myself for this
sense of fulfillment.
Yeah, Now, you know, of course,to play devil's advocate, a lot
of people might say well,that's when you're most
vulnerable to being brainwashedby you know other philosophies
or something, so you could kindof play both sides on that.
(13:17):
My personal experience, it waswhen I did feel this sense of
emptiness in my life, kind oflike the wisdom literature talks
about.
I tried all these things andthey're all bad.
It's essentially nothing reallypanned out to be truly
satisfying.
That's a little bit moreunderstandable than sometimes
(13:54):
when I talk to people who'vegrown up Christian, not having
that experience of them going tothe DBS and different churches,
growing up and having thatconsistency.
How would shame ever show up intheir life in a healthy way, if
at all?
Because you said really you'rethinking more about like the
unbeliever, so would.
For those who are growing up inthe church and pretty much feel
like they've been Christiantheir whole lives, would this
even come near to them at all?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
a sense of a healthy shame?
Yeah, I think it would.
I think it would too, becausethat's all they've ever known
Growing up.
That's all they've ever known.
And what you'll often find isyou know the aspect of you're a
sinner, right, you don't deserveGod's grace.
God gives you grace in orderfor you to be saved, which is
true.
Right, there's this aspect ofwe don't deserve it, and I am a
sinner.
But sometimes the focus becomesso much on that aspect of being
(14:36):
a sinner and not so much onbeing redeemed.
And I think, for those of uswho grew up in the church, and I
think for those of us who grewup in the church, what we feel
more is the times that we messup.
Right, because our identity isso much engulfed in.
We are to become like Christ.
That's our goal.
Anytime that we sin, there'sheavy levels of shame,
(14:58):
experience Like I am thisbecause I sinned against God.
So it's almost like it throwsyou into a cycle where you can
never get out of it.
Like you, just, instead offocusing on the aspect that
you're still the son of God now,you're just focusing on this
other aspect where no, I'm thisover here.
This is much worse.
I don't deserve God's mercy.
So I take on the identity ofbeing undeserving.
I'm undeserving of God's mercy,so I don't know where I would
(15:21):
find the balance there.
I think actually that's one partwhere I struggle with sometimes
is, you know, it's good thatI'm reflecting on this aspect of
I know that I'm not worthy ofGod's favor and God's mercy.
But not falling into thisaspect of that's all of my
identity.
When I do mess up and I thinkit goes back to the garden, Does
(15:43):
it move you to pull away fromGod or to push closer to him?
I think that's kind of the linethat I'm looking at is, if it
pushes you away from God, itwould be unhealthy shame.
If it pushes you toward God, itwill be healthy shame, because
both of them make you realizesomething about your
relationship with God.
Something's off.
Guilt is the acknowledgementthat I did something wrong.
So you're there.
(16:04):
But then, when we start tocreep into, oh no, this is my
identity now, this is who I amand therefore God can't love me
because of that right.
That message stems fromsomewhere else, and typically
from our upbringing with ourparents.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, and I can't help but to.
I know we're talking about God,for example in the church and
religion and things like that,but I'm also I can't help to
kind of think of examples, maybefrom family culture as well,
where there might be an aspectof shaming and ostracizing
individuals for what the familyor the culture or you know,
(16:36):
maybe a non-religious element,even though we might say that
the moral or the I guess thegoal we is, it's a moral,
positive thing that the family'strying to preserve some
tradition or some um I don'tknow, some particular teaching
or whatever it may be in thesense of you know people being
ostracized from differentcommunities and you know that
(17:00):
sense of shame.
It's not specifically religious,but wanting that person to feel
deprived, yeah, community,wanting them to feel some sense
of loss of relationships.
Not only from that, maybe theirimmediate family but other
surrounding people can now treatthem differently because
there's this ripple effect yeahin the hope that that social
pressure will convert them andbring them back you know what I
(17:24):
mean?
Speaker 1 (17:24):
yeah, it, but it does change behavior, I think.
So the purpose of shame from acultural perspective is to
change behavior.
The question is is changebehavior change the heart?
And so the the message is I'mgoing to shame you so you can
change your behavior.
And if behavior is all you want, then you can get that right.
(17:47):
I could shame my kids intodoing something that I want,
Like, oh you know, you don'tlove me because you're not going
with me to the store, orwhatever the case is right.
So you shame them for somethingthat they don't want to do, or
whatever the case is.
It's not a sin, but that's howwe.
Shame is used to controlpeople's behavior, but it
(18:07):
doesn't change people's heart.
So, in that sense, what's theword that's used in Scripture?
Godly sorrow brings one torepentance, right, but that's
not the same thing as shame,that's conviction.
So I think oftentimes we mayconfuse those two things.
So that's why I try todelineate between.
Guilt is the acknowledgementyou did something wrong.
Shame is taking on the identityof you being unlovable or you
being not worthy of beingforgiven, and so on.
(18:29):
But yeah, what are yourthoughts on?
Are there positive aspects ofshame as you conceptualize it
and you've thought about shamebefore or is it just all
negative?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Or mostly negative.
Again, I like that distinction.
You know what brings us closerto God and what drives us away.
You know changing behaviorversus changing the heart.
I think that's a reallyimportant distinction as well.
And you know, of course, whenwe were talking about this topic
, what kept coming to my mindwas from passages in the New
Testament where, for example,you know, the Apostle Paul was
(19:01):
talking about certainindiscretions.
He's hearing about the lettersof the church and he's saying
you know, this is how you shouldhandle it.
I'm thinking of the onespecific example I think it was
in Corinthians when the guy washaving an affair with his
mother-in-law, his mother-in-law, his father's wife, and you
know he's like.
I've already judged this.
You know we're turning him overto Satan in the sense of just
dealing with that.
Just dealing with that in thesense of you get the sense that,
(19:25):
of course, actions like thatare meant to draw them to
repentance, and so I don't know,based on what we've discussed,
if I would say that's just ahealthy form of guilt you know,
drawing them towards repentance,or if I would say that that
would be one category of shame,right, how much of it is
(19:45):
semantics and how much of it isbased on how a student is
choosing to define them.
Based on what you've said, Iwould say that's probably trying
to put an impression of ahealthy sense of guilt, to
acknowledge this and drive ittowards repentance.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
And I'm thinking about even the cultural church
today.
They would look at that andthey would say that's shaming,
that's not right, he shouldn'thave done that.
So we start to question thescriptures and we say, oh well,
if he's doing that, if you'reshaming people, I don't think
that's right.
So then we just disregardscripture itself.
So I think the way that yousaid it is it to bring that
(20:19):
person back to repentance, andit sounds like this guy has
probably already received themessage.
Hey, you know what you shouldn.
And it sounds like this guy hasprobably already received the
(20:40):
message.
Hey, you know what youshouldn't be doing this and you
still continue to.
Was shame involved in thatprocess?
So the question is did it bringthe person back to God or did
it push them away?
So I guess that's what we canlook at.
Is it healthy if it bringspeople back to God?
And I think the delivery makesa big difference.
But sometimes we don't getthings unless it's spoken to us
(21:01):
in a certain way, you know.
But also this aspect of shamingis seen in only a negative
light, where certain behaviorsand actions that people take are
justified.
For example, it could besomething as like abortion right
, don't shame the mother fordoing what she thinks is right
in her, in her eyes or for herown life.
(21:21):
It could be even this aspect ofdivorce.
Like you know, don't shamepeople who are going through
that when sometimes you kind ofneed to feel that it could be
the aspect of parenting or achild's bad behavior.
Right, it's not shaming, it'scorrecting something.
So maybe there's that aspectwho's applying the discipline or
who's addressing the issue andin what spirit are they?
(21:43):
Are they doing that?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Well, and I think that's important because it it's
like you said, it's not onlythe individuals who are doing
the reprimanding, the, you know,the shaming or whatever.
it is your audience, it's therelationship to that audience in
the context and the spirit inwhich it's done Right, and I'm
reminded I believe it was inPaul's letter to the Romans when
he was talking about judgingthose outside the church he said
(22:10):
.
He said I'm not talking aboutjudging those outside of the
church.
He's like you know, you'd haveto leave the earth entirely if
you had to talk about dealingwith people who are not in the
church and how that, how thatdynamic would play out.
He's talking about,specifically, individuals who
have the same commitments asChristians in Christ, and that
that does change things, becauseit's about having a uniform
(22:31):
witness to the world and,whether you call it shame or
guilt, this understanding thatthere is a place for that when,
as you said, it moves peopleback towards God.
That's what it's intended to doand we see examples of that, of
course, throughout scripture,where there are times and places
where there needs to beboundaries, there needs to be
reprimands, there needs to beadmonishment, and that's the
(22:53):
word you usually see inscriptures, but this sense of
admonishing not in thiscondescending better than you,
in a sense of humility and youknow Paul talks about that in a
spirit of humility andgentleness, moving towards this
sort of change because werecognize we ourselves are
sinners, but as members of thechurch we can say we are all
(23:16):
bound to the same rules and I'mnot going to hold you to a
different standard than I myselfwould be held.
And at the same time this, Ithink, kind of dips into another
topic that I think is very muchrelated, of how are we doing
church discipline?
Well, in that regard, and.
(23:36):
I would honestly say that bothmy time, you know, in the church
as a Christian but also as apastor, you know, leading church
ministries and stuff that hasbeen something I think is so
terribly lacking and teachingpastors and parishioners because
, like you said, we live in aculture now where any type of
(23:57):
healthy admonishment and holdingpeople to standards and that
that is, as you said, shame,that's inappropriate.
You shouldn't do that and youknow of course that was
consistent.
I mean, people wereexcommunicated from the church
all the time.
You know you commit a publicsin and if you want to be back
in the church, you make a publicconfession in front of everyone
Usually it was just a house,church or small group of people
(24:20):
and then that person was broughtback in.
And when you live a villagelife where everyone knows
everyone else's business, youcan imagine how that might
impact your day-to-day if yourfellow Christians no longer are
engaging.
This of course gets back intothe whole shame and guilt piece
there.
So I think that today becausewe can say well, I don't care if
(24:41):
you're going to try to admonishme because I'm cheating on my
taxes or I'm cheating on my wifeor whatever the case may be,
I'll just go to the church downthe road and they'll be happy to
have me and to have you knowwhatever money I throw in their
basket.
So we've kind of lost thatsense of accountability, we've
lost what healthy churchdiscipline looks like.
And I specifically say healthychurch discipline because we do
(25:03):
see lots of examples wherethere's unhealthy shame, where
there is this, you know, almostcultish mentality that can leave
people with a lot of spiritualburdens that then people like
you and I have to try to work,you know, help them work through
later in life.
So I'll just pause therebecause I can really I could go
off on a tangent.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
No, keep going, Keep going.
That's good, because I thinkwe're essentially getting to is
that there are these positiveimpacts of what shame does.
But it's the definition, it'show we define it.
The way that we're defining itin regards to how the church
handles discipline isaccountability, but people will
call accountability today asshaming.
(25:43):
So there is this aspect where Ithink we need to make that
difference, because God doeskeep us accountable.
So imagine you say to yourselfyou've tricked yourself into
thinking that accountabilityequals shaming.
Then, when God holds youaccountable, when your brothers
and sisters hold you accountable, when your pastor holds you
accountable, whatever the caseis, you're going to feel.
The natural inclination is tofeel ashamed, right, because
(26:04):
you're being called on something, the wrong thing, but you've
taken it on as an identity, likeit's a personal attack to you,
when what's being addressed isthe behavior.
So if we address the behavior,you can be called back to
repentance.
But we naturally, right, wenaturally are inclined to this
hiding component, right thatwhen Adam and Eve sinned, they
(26:25):
immediately ran and hid.
That's our natural instinct.
It's a natural inclination thatwe have whenever something is
wrong in our lives.
So we can see that in churchestoday, or maybe relationships
with other brothers and sistersin the church, where, when
something's being called out,you will feel ashamed.
So we're not talking aboutfeeling ashamed, we're talking
(26:45):
about being actually ashamed forsomething.
So, yeah, yeah, I think the waythat we describe accountability
today has been described asshaming I like how you brought
that full circle, by the way,back to jesus exactly oh yeah,
it takes me back.
It reminds me of of just howthat whole uh process started is
(27:07):
, um, yeah, shame is a.
It's a natural thing for us tofeel.
We naturally want to take onthe identity of something.
Remember, with mental health itwas um, there's now the more of
a comfort with it.
But your diagnosis, you kind ofwear it as a little tag right,
oh, I'm so-and-so and we were,we're proudly.
But when it comes to otherthings that we do, you know we
(27:29):
don't do that you know Well, andyou're talking about hiding,
you know, in the garden.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
But I mean, even today, like think about how
individualistic most of us arein the Western culture.
It's so easy to come and go ina church or even certain
Christian communities, be therea number for years and no one
even know your name.
Yeah, certain.
Christian communities, be theirmember for years and no one even
know your name or add to itanother level, the sense of like
the pastor, and the peoplearound me have no idea what I'm
(27:56):
doing in my life.
So, how can there be any senseof accountability, discipleship,
mentoring, anything like that,when we hold our cards so close
to our chest, when we are hidingfrom other people and you know,
of course, we might reveal to asmall little segment in our
life, maybe our families andeven that?
(28:18):
is so limited and people are somasterful in our culture here,
maybe not in all the cultureswhere it's a little bit more
communal, you know, and theymight be too much in each
other's lives.
Right, it's the other extreme.
Yeah, the other extreme, but Ithink you know, especially here
in America, Western Europe andother places where it is so easy
(28:41):
to just disappear and hide andhiding those aspects of
ourselves that either becausewe're afraid that there's going
to be a sense of shaming and Imight have a fragile sense of
myself to begin with and I don'tknow that I can handle any type
of critique and then alsothere's maybe this other side of
them that we might justify.
(29:01):
Well, I'm comparing myself.
I'm not, you know, as bad asthis person you know, insert
here whatever terribleindividual you want to insert.
And so I think that we have torecognize that that is not what
we're called to.
We're called to Christ-likeness.
We're called that's whatChristian means to be like
Christ.
So this idea that we, asChristian brothers and sisters,
(29:24):
can we, in a spirit of humilityand love, walk with each other,
you know, admonishing each other, supporting each other,
teaching each other, mentoringeach other, and that image of
the church, which is so clearlyspelled out as far as its
mission, is still shockinglylacking even in America, which
is the most Christian nation bynumbers.
(29:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yeah, so we don't get .
So it's almost like we'veallowed the culture to dictate
how we do accountability, whichis, don't get involved in
people's lives, because peopleget upset, you're not supposed
to mind your own business typeof thing, and um.
So for me you know, growing uphere but also having the latino,
latino background like for usit was like the smallest thing,
(30:06):
like you do one thing and thewhole church knows, and I hated
that.
Like you just felt the shame,right, you felt it.
You're like oh great, you know,pastor knows about this, or now
so-and-so knows about this.
So there is that aspect where Idesired more independence, like
maybe you don't need to knoweverything about my life, maybe
I'll just keep more things tomyself.
And then there's the other sidewhere that's all they've known.
Like why are you gettinginvolved in my life?
(30:34):
Like this is not right.
But we look at scripture.
Oh, maybe it is.
Maybe there's a healthy way toactually address these things
that's going on in my life.
So, depending on where you'recoming from, if you're coming
from an individualistic culture,you probably want to focus more
on what does a community,healthy community look like?
And if you're from acollectivistic culture, what
does it look like to walk out myfaith in Christ on my own.
In the sense of that, I'mcommunicating with God, but he
(30:57):
uses people in your life.
So I mean it's.
I think being a Christian, it'snaturally ingrained that you're
going to be in community.
Would that be a fair statement?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, we're definitely created for community
.
That's definitely one of thegoals.
And you know that's hard for meto say because I'm a fierce
introvert, and yet, you know,even if I can say no, no, that's
an essential component of whatit is to be a Christian.
You know, and even youdescribing your upbringing of
(31:27):
being in a very communal spirit,community in the sense of
everyone knows your business,and I hear you talk about it
with frustration in your voicelike this.
It's like that's not a pleasantexperience, and yet I have to
believe that if everyone hasgone through that in that
community, that, yeah, youpromote a community that would
(31:49):
also be very hesitant to becometoo prideful yeah because
everyone can reference mistakesthat they know others have made,
and say hold on now, I rememberlast year, or you know that's
true yeah, and so it would keepeveryone humble I was that's
true accountability, trueaccountability, yeah, and you
know there's a there's thislingering record.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
You know by the community that no one can like
stand above others and say thatthey're better in some way and
and you know, and to that thoughI think it would it would
emphasize more the behaviors,because then it would in some
sense at least the way that Iexperienced it was it helped,
help me or moved me to keep somestuff to myself and not share
everything because I didn't wantthat to be known.
(32:28):
Well, my behavior was on Like itwas whatever was required of me
.
I did so in that sense, butthat could be more of a heart
issue.
I don't know if that'snecessarily a community issue
necessarily, but more of a heartissue, like, should I be open
with just things that I'mwrestling with?
So, again, going back to theempathy point, do people
understand what I'm going to begoing through?
(32:48):
If I share this struggle, dopeople understand it and can
they guide me in a way that'sbeneficial, that draws me closer
to Christ?
And again, those areopportunities where we reflect
Christ, all the one another's.
This speaks to this aspect ofcommunity.
You can't love one another ifyou're not being around one
another, right.
So there is this aspect likecommunity is ingrained into the
(33:12):
Christian walk, and that makesthe end of the New Testament.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, and I think that in that case that you're
describing, you do have to havekind of concentric circles of
social connectedness.
You're going to have thosecloser to you that are going to
be your confidants, your family,you know, people that you can
trust.
And then you might, you know,in the wider communities, have
maybe other peripheral people inthe church that you know and
but maybe you wouldn'tnecessarily divulge your deepest
secrets to.
(33:35):
They haven't earned that levelof trust yet.
You don't know them that well.
Now, of course, those arethings that I would say.
In matters where it's personalstruggles and sins, then you
would just stick with yourconcentric circles, but still
having social support to wrestlewith those things.
But I'm thinking more like incases where there's a public sin
that, as you said, just kind ofgets around the community, and
(33:57):
in those cases, of course, Ithink then you know some sense
of public confession, publicadmonishment, publishing or a
public change to where you,because then it's also a model
for other people, like you know,look, you make a mistake.
We're going gonna hold eachother accountable in a sense of
spirit, in a spirit of humilityand love, as paul talks about,
(34:18):
and yet being fully restored andmoving on and the next week
it'll be someone else.
Yeah that's a good point, thatis something that people can see
I think that it'll give us anappropriate and healthy sense of
transparency when it'sappropriate in communal context,
but I think also balancing that, like you said, maybe not
(34:38):
everything that I struggle withif it's not a public sin it's
something I personally strugglewith, then I need to prayerfully
take that to God.
I'm going to have people in mylife that you know are my
confessors and that I take to.
You know, like we talked aboutbefore, maybe older men in my
life and I would say you know,for a male it would need to be a
man.
You know you don't want thingslike that to grow into some type
(34:59):
of emotional connection.
That's unhealthy.
But you know, having thosementors and hopefully they have
mentors and so on and so forth,we can pass that on, and
hopefully they have mentors andso on and so forth we can pass
that
Speaker 1 (35:10):
on.
Yeah, I'm curious to how peopleshould interpret I want to say
it's in James or Peter thisaspect of confessing your sins
one to another, and you kind oftouched on it right now.
Like there was a time, I wouldsay maybe four or five years ago
, where a lot of people would goon their social media and they
would share the most vulnerablethings about their lives like
(35:31):
super vulnerable.
And I was, I was thinking tomyself I'm like this is not
healthy because you're sharingdeep personal things with people
who don't know you.
So there's a sense of ofcatharsis in that process, like
I'm releasing all of thisinformation but at the same time
, you don't know these people.
And to your point about kind ofkeeping within the concentric
(35:53):
circles, is you have to havepeople that you trust?
If those people that you trust,what you're also trusting is
that they're not going to sharethat information with everyone
else, right.
But if you're sharing it, thisaspect of confessing your sins
one to another, I think somepeople have misinterpreted that
and feel like they need to sharewith everyone.
So they take that approach andsay, well, you know, I'm
wrestling with this and again,it could be something that you
(36:15):
can talk with those people whoare actually involved in your
life, like I don't feelcomfortable sharing something
that I'm wrestling with withsomeone that's not involved in
my life.
That doesn't make sense either,right?
So the shame can grow in thosecircles where you don't feel
safe.
You don't feel like you cantrust the people that you're
talking to.
That's why that circle isalways smaller.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, and people who would share things on social
media like you described.
From a psychologicalperspective, we would say those
people have loose boundaries.
It's the individual who getsinto an elevator or sits next to
you on the bus and, before youget off, another whole life
story and you're like I did notask you this and yet they want
to tell you everything aboutthem.
Yeah, that's someone who but?
why?
Why?
I wonder why they do that.
(36:56):
I think it comes from adesperate need.
All people desire to know andbe known.
I think you know, as you saidearlier, we are created for
community, and when people havea desperate lacking of that in
their lives, or maybe they havea history where they don't feel
seen, in some ways, there is anaspect of their personality that
will sometimes grab the wheelof you know, control and do
(37:21):
things like that, I'm going tothrow caution to the wind.
I'm going to put the mostvulnerable things about myself
out there for the whole world tosee.
That, I would say, is even moreextreme than, of course, the
person in the elevator, theperson on the bus, and you don't
know how that ripple effect isgoing to come back around to
harm them.
I think they could be settingthemselves up to be hurt because
(37:42):
typically someone who would dothat now I realize I'm making a
sweeping generalization here Ifsomeone wants to be known that
badly that they're going to putsuch a bunch of stuff out there.
I would imagine they're alsoquite sensitive to feedback and
someone using that against them.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
And increased shame.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Exactly, they're not going to have the resilience to
deal with the blowback on them.
So I would say that, first ofall, in action in itself is not
healthy, but also what it couldreap will be unhealthy as well.
The ideal you know.
Getting back to what we'resaying about, if you have
personal struggles, if you havethings in your life, as we all
(38:20):
do, that are going to be chronicsins, things that you know to
use a metaphor from early churchthey talk about.
You know early sins and thingsthat we commit kind of like a
spider web.
You know early sins and thingsthat we commit kind of like a
spider web.
You know start to wrap around usand they're easily broken.
But if we don't address them,then over time it becomes like
twine and it becomes like rope,and then it becomes like chains,
(38:41):
and before long we realize thatit's very difficult to break
these bindings, because it'sbecome so chronic in our
habitual nature that we do haveto find something outside of
ourselves, of course with God.
But it requires thatvulnerability of confessing our
sins to other people, and so Ithink that's why, when we read
(39:01):
about that in the New Testament,it is really uncomfortable to
go to someone else and say well,my brother or sister in Christ,
here is where I am fallingshort, here's where I'm missing
the mark.
And to be able to do that in aspirit of transparency with
someone you trust and someoneyou know will use that
information to your benefit andhelp keep you accountable, but
(39:26):
also recognize that what youknow, what you're sharing with
them, is sacred.
Yeah.
And being able to hold thatconfidence, but I think that
that I have seen is notsomething that we are
necessarily doing as well as Iwould like because, and I only
say that based on our anecdotalevidence of working with college
(39:48):
students.
As you said before, they haveall this access to social media
and yet no other generation hasexpressed feelings alone as they
do.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
It's a really good point.
I think it just feels good toyour point.
I think that was wanting to beknown, so they share everything
out there and only the peoplewho latch onto the hook are the
ones that make it into thatcircle and even then it's still
such a big circle that you stilldon't feel known Like that's
the that.
I think that's the reality ofsocial media is that you think
(40:20):
you're being known or you wantto be known by all of these
people, whatever 500,000 friendsthat you have.
That you think and then reallyonly two people respond.
Three people respond and you'rethinking to yourself even more
lonely than what you initiallythought would draw people in to
ask you about you, to do thesethings.
And yeah, it's really sad.
(40:40):
You're right, the feeling ofloneliness is due to not being
known.
But we have our churches and wehave our communities.
I'm a big fan of picking one,two or three people, just three
people that you can trust, keepthem in that circle and share
with them.
Right, and obviously there's ahistory behind that.
You've seen them be there foryou through numerous times.
So we're not saying completelyclose up so you don't feel shame
(41:02):
, and we're not saying just openup to increase your shame.
We're saying be selective aboutthis process, be wise about
this process and choosing peoplewho can help you manage that
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Yeah, and I would add to it, because this is
something I see a lot as well,is don't give up on the concept
because someone has let you down.
Yeah.
Right.
I mean, how many people have uh, I, I mean, I personally know a
lot of people who would say,well, I've, I've written off
that idea of community and Idon't attend church anymore
because this one instanceoccurred.
(41:35):
And this one person said or didthis and it upset me, so I don't
go to church anymore.
And the same thing on a moreindividualistic level.
You know I confided in thisperson and they broke my
confidence.
So I don't tell people aboutthis stuff anymore.
I don't tell people about thisstuff anymore, Don't let the
(41:58):
exception, change what has beenan honored and important
teaching of the church that havebeen passed down to us over the
centuries, and this idea ofhealthy, vulnerable transparency
with people who can be trusted.
Every single person that weselect as mentors and confessors
in our lives are not going toturn around and try to inflict
unhealthy shame on us or thatthey're not going to break our
confidence.
No, sadly that's going to happenoccasionally and you know we
(42:20):
just we kind of live and learnand move on and hopefully God
can use that difficult event tobring something positive out of
it.
And you know it helps us growin resilience as well to face
those kinds of challenges.
But you know that wholeexpression of throwing the baby
out with the bathwater theconcept itself is solid and it's
necessary and the alternativeis isolation.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, yeah, which which with time will increase
one's shame, because now youstart to believe that you're not
really wanted by other peopleor by God.
So we usually, I guess, filterour relationship with God
through the people in our liveswho call themselves Christians.
Right, we say, well, thisperson's a Christian, they don't
treat me that way, thisperson's a Christian.
(43:02):
The pastor says this orso-and-so, and they're not the
same.
God is not us, he's perfect, heis present, he is good.
So he desires those things forus and he provides that through,
oftentimes through the church.
So I do feel sad for those whohave experienced negative or had
(43:23):
negative experiences in thechurch, but don't let that push
you away from God Again.
The healthy shame is going tobe this acknowledgement of I've
taken on a wrong identity,that's not who I am in Christ.
So that should draw you back toGod, back to his word, back to
prayer, back to community, inorder to restore that
relationship, anything thatpushes you in the opposite
direction.
And again, look at your, notjust your behaviors, but also
(43:45):
your heart.
Where is it leading you towards?
Because you can numb shame,there could be something that
you should feel ashamed, and youcan numb that and then feel
nothing.
And then now, when you sin,you're just like, oh, it's
nothing.
We slowly numb ourselves to theimpact of sin in our lives.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Yeah, we can certainly inoculate ourselves
and, like you said, to the pointthat we are not shaken in the
way that we should about certainbehaviors.
And you know I should probablymention this.
We're talking about confessionand we're talking about shame
and things like that, and Iacknowledge that it's going to
be based on somebody'supbringing or culture, which we
already kind of talked about aswell, but also their particular
(44:25):
denomination, because ifsomeone's coming from, like an
Eastern Orthodox or RomanCatholic or Lutheran Anglican,
all those traditions that I justnamed, there is historically in
those traditions theunderstanding that someone
should confess to their pastor,and I think that if that someone
feels that they have a goodrelationship with their pastor
(44:45):
or like, depending on the sizeof the church, they even have
access to a pastor.
I know many people you know overhere, here at the university.
They go to these parishes orthese you know different
non-denominational churches.
There's thousands of people andit's like well, I'm lucky to
get like the assistant pastor'sassistant.
Yeah, it's really not going toget to the pastor yeah and so
you have to kind of gauge thatand keep that in mind If you
(45:08):
have a good relationship withyour pastor, as the individual
who is the God-ordained shepherdof that community and, just
like a father of a household,has a sense of responsibility to
God and will be answerable toGod on the day of judgment for
how he led his flock.
And so I think, if that is apossibility, I would certainly
(45:28):
encourage someone to have theirpastor as a confessor, and I
also recognize that that canmake it even more difficult
because they don't want theirpastors seeing them in a
negative light.
And now would I say that youshould be your only confessor?
No, of course not.
And would I say that there'sexamples of pastors who will use
(45:49):
unhealthy shame on the membersof their community, absolutely,
and I would say, if that's thecase, then that person should
not be within that concentriccircle closest to you.
They have to, you know theyhave to by their rank and by how
they've earned it warrant usgoing to them to disclose those
(46:09):
things.
And when I say rank, I don'tmean just because someone is a
pastor or a priest or a bishopor something like that.
That in itself ideally putsthem in a place where they have
been trained and experienced todo this well, but it's not
always the case and I have foundthat some of the most gentle,
loving, wonderful people to beconfessors in our lives are
(46:34):
individuals who have little tono formal education in religion,
but they've got experience andthey have taken their
sanctification process seriouslyand how they've grown as
Christians themselves.
Essentially, you want to havesomeone that you can go to
confess to, someone that youwant to grow into.
Someone that you say, like Paulsays follow me, as I follow
(46:55):
Christ.
Yeah, yeah.
And so we want to seek outthose people.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
And I know I know we talked about this in an earlier
episode but how they um thepeople that you're wanting to to
learn how to trust is how theyhandle suffering too.
Right.
I think that's a big part of it, because part of the christian
life is that you will havetribulation.
So how did those people thatyou're wanting to connect with,
(47:21):
how did they handle suffering?
Because that then gives you theopportunity to see okay, they
handled that in a way that Iwant to reflect Christ.
That's one.
But secondly, it's going toremove the shame from knowing
that you feel like you've messedup or feel like you've done
(47:42):
something wrong, and still yousee people pushing forward and I
think that's been encouragementto me of people in tough times
that they realize or accept.
You know I could have donethings different or I did mess
up, and I'm moving forward inthis direction and that, for me,
has been an encouragement too.
So, seeing people suffer, aspainful as it is to go through
that process, seeing them, it'salways good to see how God is
(48:03):
able to restore thatrelationship.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Yeah, you know, there's a quote that I remember
from when I was in the militaryand I tell the interns and even
clients sometimes, you know, andI I remember it because it's
just, it's something that I havefound later in life applies to
the spiritual life as well andit was written on the dorms of,
you know, military barracks.
It was written on the wall.
They said sweat more in peace,bleed less in war I love that
(48:28):
quote.
Yep, oh yeah, I love it more inpeace bleed, less in war and so
kind of.
On this topic you're talkingabout of suffering and other
things and shame individuals whoare, as I mentioned before,
really taking thatsanctification process seriously
.
They've experienced loss.
They've experienced you knowtheir own struggles.
They they've had both good andbad confessors.
They've talked about thesethings and know what it is to
(48:49):
experience healthy guilt, andmaybe you know shame unhealthy
shame or positive shame as welland by their practicing these
things, when struggles, whensuffering, when these things
come, they're well prepared forit, just like a soldier who
would train hard, or an athlete,a musician when you practice
(49:10):
hard, you're training hard sothat when the time for to put it
to the test, you're ready and Ithink that gets you know.
We've talked about spiritualdisciplines.
We've talked about these us inthe way that god intended for us
(49:36):
to have mentors admonish us andkeep us honest and aware, but
also, at the same time, not tobreak us down yeah, yeah, I
think you referenced thatearlier.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
I think, uh, I think galatians 6, where it talks
about those of you who are moremature in the faith, something
to the effect of confront thosewho are weaker in the faith and
build them up, but then afterthat it says bear you one of
those burdens and so fulfill thelaw of Christ.
So there is that aspect is thatwhen something is confronted,
that person is also willing towalk with you as you reach
(50:08):
restoration.
So those are good things tokeep in mind.
Shame is a very real thing andit's a very deep, deep feeling.
It's a bad feeling, but one ofthe ways that you want to
distinguish from it is is itpushing you closer to God or is
it pulling you away?
And when people implementcertain practices to shame you
(50:32):
about something, see, is thisconviction or is this me wanting
to pull away from God, wantingto hide?
So it takes a lot ofself-awareness and
self-reflection to be able toknow that.
So if you haven't done that,it's going to be more difficult.
Speaker 2 (50:46):
I think.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
But if you have a good sense of awareness, if
you're allowing the spirit tolead you, I think you'll be able
to tell the difference betweenthose two.
You can't experience shameunless you've experienced guilt.
Right Guilt says something waswrong.
Shame is I am or I become thatthing and therefore God can't
love me, he can't reach me orothers can't be around.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
So yeah, and to jump off of what you said about this
idea even if people say thingsthat prompt a strong reaction
within us, do we have thewherewithal to say is there any
truth to what they say?
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Yeah, good point.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yeah, and that can be difficult to do.
I think it takes an emotionallymature, spiritually mature
person to say, oh, that reallytriggered me at the same time,
maybe the things are triggeringme.
Triggering in me are the verythings that I need to work on
and you know this idea of kindof looking at that and I hope,
if the listeners take nothingaway from today, just this idea
(51:40):
that we've come back aroundagain and again, is we live in a
culture that says any form, anyfeelings of guilt, any sense?
Of shame is negative.
It's all couched in this kind ofnegative light and that is
often the message that we hear.
And yet we see the Christianwitness and in scriptures and
throughout the history of thechurch, is this, you know, idea
that no, there is a place for it.
(52:02):
You know there is a healthy waythat that can look in our lives
and, in a sense, as long as it'scoming from people who love us
and it's coming from a placewithin ourselves that we can say
this is going to help me growand I have an accountability,
not just to myself, myrelationship to God, but to my
Christian community, what Irepresent in the world and you
(52:24):
know, no man is an island in thesense that, like people look at
me and they're going to thinkof the church because I proclaim
that I'm a Christian, and so inthat sense, my actions bear
witness to the faith in general,and so I have an obligation to
reflect that in my life, and soother people in the community
who share the same beliefs as Ido.
(52:44):
We have accountability to oneanother and a responsibility to
one another.
Yeah.
To build each other up andencourage each other yes.
One another yeah.
To build each other up andencourage each other yes, but
also to call each other yeah onour failures and to say hey,
that's not what we're about,that's not what we represent,
and to be there to walk with usthrough that transition yeah,
(53:05):
you, us feeling bad aboutsomething that someone says to
us is not a good indicator ofwhether or not it was healthy or
not right, because we feel badabout, you know, dumb things.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Sometimes Someone could look at us a certain way
and we feel rejected, you know.
So the way that we feel is nota good indicator of whether or
not it's healthy or unhealthy.
It's what is it pushing youtowards?
Right?
You're coping right.
If you have a situation thatmade you feel bad and you turn
to a vice, then that's probablynot a good, healthy way of
coping.
(53:36):
But if it pushes you to talk toa friend or a close brother or
sister in Christ, then that's abetter way of coping.
So, kind of, look for thosethings as you think about shame.
Right, you're going to feel bad.
It's a natural inclination whensomeone says something that we
don't agree with or that wedon't like.
But the actual measure of it isis it drawing you closer to
(53:57):
Christ, closer to the Christiancommunity, or is it pulling you
away from that?
And I think if we do that, wewill be able to deal with shame
in a healthier way.
This was a good conversation.
Yeah, way, this was a goodconversation.
Yeah, I didn't know, notscripted.
We didn't know where we'regoing.
We just ended up here and itsounded like a great job, so
we'll see.
Oh, so I shouldn't have beenreading that off the wall.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
No, I had no idea where you were going with this
tonight, but I think we got intoa lot of very uh adjacent
topics that very much inform thetopic of guilt and shame.
You know whether it's uh.
You know church discipline orhow we deal with our own
personal lives and mentors andpeople.
We seek out.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Yeah, and I think that's what you mentioned about
the cultural piece too.
Oh yeah, that was important.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
Yeah, because I think that a lot of people, even
outside the church, willexperience a sense of shame and
what that looks like, even ifthey're not religious
necessarily.
But I do agree with you that thepenultimate experience of what
that's meant to be is mostbeautifully seen in the church,
in the sense that God might usethese things to draw us back to
him, and whether that'ssuffering in a community that's,
(54:58):
you know, exiled us, because weare doing something that's
outside of the pale of what itis to be a Christian, or because
, you know, we recognize withinourselves that we're struggling
with certain things and, insteadof hiding and come back again
to the genesis example, uh, thatwe have to be transparent with
the right people, yeah, who willhelp get us back on the path no
(55:22):
, I think.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Um, I think we covered all the questions that
came up and I hope that this isa blessing to you guys.
Thank you for tuning in.
You know I want to do anepisode where you guys can send
in some questions.
I haven't done that yet, butsend in some questions and try
to answer them and I'll say hey,you know, here's a question
that's come up.
Shame is one that often we seein counseling, especially for
(55:44):
those who grew up in the church,but yeah, so I think that's
where this whole episode isgoing to go.
Brother, appreciate you, thanksfor doing the episode and we
look forward to seeing you nexttime.
Take care, guys.
All right, welcome back to the God Attachment
Healing Podcast everyone.
If you have been joining forquite a while, thank you Because
you know this podcast.
When I first started itactually it was called Create to
Connect and then it moved tothe Genesis of Shame, which is
interestingly, the topic thatwe're going to discuss today,
(00:28):
and then now, obviously, godAttachment Healing, and so it's
been great.
It's been a really goodlearning experience and I've
been able to interview somegreat people, like my friend
here, dr James Honeycutt, andwe're going to talk about the
impact of shame on one'srelationship with God, the
positive and the negative impactof shame on one's relationship
(00:48):
with God, the positive and thenegative.
And I guess, thinking aboutthat, like, what are the
positive effects of shame in ourrelationship with God, or the
negative effects of that, andwe'll talk a little bit about
that.
But before we begin, if youhave been listening to the
podcast, please leave a review,share with your friends, share
this episode.
I think this one's going to beone that Christians are going to
want to tune into, becausethere is a lot of shame attached
to one's Christian walk,whether that be because of past
(01:12):
mistakes, whether it be becauseof, maybe, something that's
currently happening in theirlives, or maybe just feeling
rejected by God because of thebad things that they have done.
So yeah, so we're going to jumpinto this topic feeling
rejected by God because of thebad things that they have done.
So, yeah, so we're gonna jumpinto this topic.
(01:32):
The shame the positive impactsand the negative impacts of
shame in our relationship withGod.
Jim, what came to mind you knowI presented this is not
something we've talked aboutbefore.
This is something that's new,maybe, to our conversation about
this, and I'm wondering whatpopped into your mind when I
talked about the positive andnegative impacts of shame.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
First of all edit out .
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Jim, because I don't go by, jim, you said Jim, did I
say Jim what I didn't say James,no, you said Jim, I never call
you, jim, I don't Wow.
No, it's James.
Yeah, please.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
If you're going to do that, do it privately not when
you're doing a podcast, wheneveryone's going to start
calling you that.
So, yeah, so obviously, theidea of shame you're you're
mentioning it, like we presumethere is a positive as well as a
negative aspect to shame aswell.
So I think that also somethingelse to keep in mind.
Mind.
It's going to matter based onthe person's upbringing, right,
cultural christian denominationsyep, some of them are going to
(02:31):
accent that a little bit morethan others.
Uh, yeah, it's a big topic andit's one that we see a lot, of
course people coming intocounseling, uh, struggling with
guilt, struggling with whetheror not they can embrace a faith,
if they're even worthy to havea relationship, or to be a
Christian or whatever it may be.
(02:51):
That is something we seefrequently.
So I agree, it is a problem.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yeah, yeah, definitely a problem.
In the Christian life and evenoutside of Christianity as well.
People know what shame feelslike.
People know what shame feelslike.
People know what guilt feelslike, and the way that I usually
distinguish them is guilt isthe acknowledgement that I've
done something wrong.
I did something wrong and I'mfeeling bad about that, and
(03:18):
shame is saying that you arethat thing, whatever it is that
you are, so you take it on as anidentity.
And Brene Brown talks aboutthis.
So she's done a lot of researchon that aspect of shame and she
says basically that those are Iam statements, I am this evil
action that I did right.
(03:38):
So I think, when we talk aboutshame within our relationship
with God, we got to go back tothe Garden of Eden and see what
happened there.
Can you give us a just a briefsummary of how sin entered the
world and then we can go fromthere and feedback on what shame
looks like.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Well, I think all of us will remember, you know, kind
of Christianity 101, the senseof we were created to be in
relationship with God and wewere given everything available
to us.
But, as in any relationship,there are boundaries, and God
expressed this boundary as faras what our ancestral parents
were to do and the things theyweren't to do, and as we have
(04:21):
struggled throughout ourexistence, humanity wants to be
God without God, right, and sothis idea of easily deceived by
the serpent in the garden and weread about this in the first
chapters of Genesis, whenhumanity was deceived and
essentially brought sin, death,suffering, into the world, but
(04:46):
breaking that relationship withGod.
It looks like you got yourBible pulled up.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Yeah, I wanted to kind of read this passage.
So we're made for relationshipwith God.
Then Eve and Adam and Eve eatfrom the fruit.
And then what happens afterthat?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
God seeks them out, they recognize immediately, of
course, that something haschanged, something ontological
has changed within their person,and they recognize their
nakedness for one thing.
And so there's immediately thissense of things have changed,
things have shifted within themas people.
We read shortly thereafter thatGod is seeking them out in the
(05:27):
garden, and there's thisexchange of course with placing
blame, as we're very good atdoing, and of course you know,
adam blames the woman, the womanblames the serpent, and then,
of course, god basically relaysto them, as a result of these
choices here, the consequencesthat you've brought upon
yourselves.
And so that, of course, beginsthis very long story, which
(05:49):
lasts throughout all ofscripture, of God working to
redeem humanity from choicesthat they have made, and
humanity experiencing theconsequences of our actions in
various ways, whether it'snatural disasters and disease
and death, whether it is our ownanimosity towards our fellow
man and then also withinourselves and, of course, the
(06:11):
demonic forces as well.
So we fight these battles onall these fronts.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And I wanted to read throughthis passage in Genesis 3
because that's obviously wherethis starts.
And again, I mentioned thisearlier.
But the second podcast theystarted was called the Genesis
of Shame and it stemmed fromthis aspect of what happened at
the Garden of Eden, and I'mgoing to read from verse 8,
(06:40):
because that's where this aspectof how shame influences our
relationship with God.
You know, you mentioned God'ssoftened out.
Look what they did in verse 8.
And they heard the sound of theLord walking in the garden in
the cool of the day, and thenman and his wife hid themselves
from the presence of the Lord,god, among the trees of the
garden.
(07:01):
So this is essentially whathappens when we experience shame
.
So, for those of us who arebelievers in Christ, when we
experience shame, what it does?
It moves us to hide ourselvesor to run away from God, because
it takes on this aspect ofwhatever it is that I did.
God can't forgive me for that,because it is exactly who I am
(07:21):
Right, and this is where a lotof Christians confuse guilt with
shame.
When we do, when we sin againstGod, we are convicted by the
Holy Spirit, which should leadus to repentance, which means
that we have to then seek outGod.
God's there, he's waiting.
He may even come to us, as wesee here in the Garden of Eden.
(07:42):
But if we take on this aspect ofshame here in the Garden of
Eden, but if we take on thisaspect of shame where we now say
, this is unforgivable, this iswho I am.
God cannot change me, he cannotforgive me for what I've done,
that's going to push you awayfrom God.
It says verse 9,.
But the Lord, god, called tothe man and said to him where
are you?
And he said I heard the soundof you in the garden and I was
(08:02):
afraid because I was naked and Ihid myself.
Again there's this fear thatGod's going to respond a certain
way and again it kind of movesus into this aspect of hiding
and I think that's what shamedoes.
It makes us hide ourselves fromthe light, because the light
exposes something about us.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think that you know and ofcourse we read about that in the
New Testament this idea ofthose who live in darkness want
to remain in darkness becausewhen they are exposed to the
light, then their deeds becomerevealed before everyone else.
So I like how you'recategorizing the difference
between guilt and shame, andI've heard that expressed before
in other podcasts and readingsand things like that.
(08:44):
Do you think, in light of whatyou're saying and maybe this is
something we're going to get toin a moment, but it sounds like
guilt you would understand thenis justifiable guilt where we
acknowledge and recognize that abreach has occurred in law,
relationship something like thatsecular or spiritual and we
(09:04):
feel what would be anappropriate reaction to it and
then, as you said, seek to makechanges for restitution as a
result.
That's healthy guilt.
Shame is more, as you said,personalized, so kind of keeping
that in mind, in the sense ofthe distinction there, when
would you ever say shame wouldbe healthy?
Or would you ever say that Good.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
So this would be this positive aspect of shame and
this negative aspect of shame.
So you said you want to knowthe positive aspect of shame.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah, because based on the way that you categorized
it and I've heard that beforeand I like it.
I'm maybe initially kind ofwondering where you're going
with this as far as how we'regoing to get around to any
potential positive aspects ofshame.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Yeah, yeah, no, that's good.
So what are some of the commonshame messages that people often
hear, especially when it comesto our relationship with God?
Is this aspect of I am brokenor I am not good?
And then we include one ofprobably the most common one
that's used not good enough,right?
And we had to look at wherethose messages stem from.
(10:10):
And again, because we'respeaking about God attachment,
we go back to attachment and welook at how one's relationship
with their parents kind offormulated this idea that
someone is not good enough, orthat they are worthless, or that
they're unlovable, right?
So that's kind of this idealike if someone disobeys their
parents, right, they feel badbecause they were disobedient.
(10:31):
But then there's other aspectof I'm unlovable because I was
disobedient.
So they take on this identityof being unlovable because they
were disobedient and again,maybe the parents would push
them away when they weredisobedient.
They didn't want to connectwith them.
So then, as they grow older,they start to see their
relationship with God in thatsame way I did something wrong
(10:51):
against God, I committed a sin,sam, I don't deserve to be in
God's presence, god doesn'treally love.
So they take on that aspect.
Now, when can it actually bepositive?
The only time, or probably oneof the most crucial times, is
when someone is not a believerbecause they take on that part
of their identity where they'resaying, because of these things,
(11:13):
I'm unlovable.
They're in the perfect positionto be able to receive the
gospel, god's message.
That has been different fromanyone else.
As Christians we have adifferent understanding of God,
so I don't know if it's going toplay to that strength.
Like I'm not, I understand Goddifferently than someone who is
not a Christian because we'reindwelt by the Holy Spirit.
(11:34):
But I'm curious to hear kind ofyour thoughts on is that a
clear enough distinction betweenthe two, where only those who
are not believers, they take onso many different identities.
Right In the sense of I, amthis right?
One of the things you see, Iguess, with AA meetings is I'm
an alcoholic or a recoveringalcoholic, so kind of this
(11:56):
identity piece that matters tothem which then moves them
towards change.
Right, keeps them humble andkeeps them humble.
So there's this aspect too.
Does that keep me humble in myrelationship with God, where I
don't think of myself as holierthan thou?
Speaker 2 (12:16):
I appreciate you kind of breaking that down because
it reminded me of a story when Iwas shortly after I became a
Christian.
There was a young lady that Iknew and worked with and I was
excited as a new Christian ofwas a young lady that I knew and
worked with and I was excitedas a new Christian, of course,
sharing my faith and talkingabout it, and she tolerated me
for a little bit and she finallyturned around and said I don't
need God.
My life is good.
(12:36):
And that was shocking because,you know, of course, I was very
excited to have found God in myearly 20s and, you know, I was
having my whole way ofconceptualizing things change,
and so when she said that, itkind of dawned on me to your
point, sometimes we have to bein that place of brokenness
(12:56):
before we can humble ourselvesand be open to maybe there's
more to it, or maybe I need tolook outside of myself for this
sense of fulfillment.
Um, you know, of course, tolook outside of myself for this
sense of fulfillment.
Yeah, Now, you know, of course,to play devil's advocate, a lot
of people might say well,that's when you're most
vulnerable to being brainwashedby you know other philosophies
or something, so you could kindof play both sides on that.
(13:17):
My personal experience, it waswhen I did feel this sense of
emptiness in my life, kind oflike the wisdom literature talks
about.
I tried all these things andthey're all bad.
It's essentially nothing reallypanned out to be truly
satisfying.
That's a little bit moreunderstandable than sometimes
(13:54):
when I talk to people who'vegrown up Christian, not having
that experience of them going tothe DBS and different churches,
growing up and having thatconsistency.
How would shame ever show up intheir life in a healthy way, if
at all?
Because you said really you'rethinking more about like the
unbeliever, so would.
For those who are growing up inthe church and pretty much feel
like they've been Christiantheir whole lives, would this
even come near to them at all?
Speaker 1 (14:13):
a sense of a healthy shame?
Yeah, I think it would.
I think it would too, becausethat's all they've ever known
Growing up.
That's all they've ever known.
And what you'll often find isyou know the aspect of you're a
sinner, right, you don't deserveGod's grace.
God gives you grace in orderfor you to be saved, which is
true.
Right, there's this aspect ofwe don't deserve it, and I am a
sinner.
But sometimes the focus becomesso much on that aspect of being
(14:36):
a sinner and not so much onbeing redeemed.
And I think, for those of uswho grew up in the church, and I
think for those of us who grewup in the church, what we feel
more is the times that we messup.
Right, because our identity isso much engulfed in.
We are to become like Christ.
That's our goal.
Anytime that we sin, there'sheavy levels of shame,
(14:58):
experience Like I am thisbecause I sinned against God.
So it's almost like it throwsyou into a cycle where you can
never get out of it.
Like you, just, instead offocusing on the aspect that
you're still the son of God now,you're just focusing on this
other aspect where no, I'm thisover here.
This is much worse.
I don't deserve God's mercy.
So I take on the identity ofbeing undeserving.
I'm undeserving of God's mercy,so I don't know where I would
(15:21):
find the balance there.
I think actually that's one partwhere I struggle with sometimes
is, you know, it's good thatI'm reflecting on this aspect of
I know that I'm not worthy ofGod's favor and God's mercy.
But not falling into thisaspect of that's all of my
identity.
When I do mess up and I thinkit goes back to the garden, Does
(15:43):
it move you to pull away fromGod or to push closer to him?
I think that's kind of the linethat I'm looking at is, if it
pushes you away from God, itwould be unhealthy shame.
If it pushes you toward God, itwill be healthy shame, because
both of them make you realizesomething about your
relationship with God.
Something's off.
Guilt is the acknowledgementthat I did something wrong.
So you're there.
(16:04):
But then, when we start tocreep into, oh no, this is my
identity now, this is who I amand therefore God can't love me
because of that right.
That message stems fromsomewhere else, and typically
from our upbringing with ourparents.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
Yeah, and I can't help but to.
I know we're talking about God,for example in the church and
religion and things like that,but I'm also I can't help to
kind of think of examples, maybefrom family culture as well,
where there might be an aspectof shaming and ostracizing
individuals for what the familyor the culture or you know,
(16:36):
maybe a non-religious element,even though we might say that
the moral or the I guess thegoal we is, it's a moral,
positive thing that the family'strying to preserve some
tradition or some um I don'tknow, some particular teaching
or whatever it may be in thesense of you know people being
ostracized from differentcommunities and you know that
(17:00):
sense of shame.
It's not specifically religious,but wanting that person to feel
deprived, yeah, community,wanting them to feel some sense
of loss of relationships.
Not only from that, maybe theirimmediate family but other
surrounding people can now treatthem differently because
there's this ripple effect yeahin the hope that that social
pressure will convert them andbring them back you know what I
(17:24):
mean?
Speaker 1 (17:24):
yeah, it, but it does change behavior, I think.
So the purpose of shame from acultural perspective is to
change behavior.
The question is is changebehavior change the heart?
And so the the message is I'mgoing to shame you so you can
change your behavior.
And if behavior is all you want, then you can get that right.
(17:47):
I could shame my kids intodoing something that I want,
Like, oh you know, you don'tlove me because you're not going
with me to the store, orwhatever the case is right.
So you shame them for somethingthat they don't want to do, or
whatever the case is.
It's not a sin, but that's howwe.
Shame is used to controlpeople's behavior, but it
(18:07):
doesn't change people's heart.
So, in that sense, what's theword that's used in Scripture?
Godly sorrow brings one torepentance, right, but that's
not the same thing as shame,that's conviction.
So I think oftentimes we mayconfuse those two things.
So that's why I try todelineate between.
Guilt is the acknowledgementyou did something wrong.
Shame is taking on the identityof you being unlovable or you
being not worthy of beingforgiven, and so on.
(18:29):
But yeah, what are yourthoughts on?
Are there positive aspects ofshame as you conceptualize it
and you've thought about shamebefore or is it just all
negative?
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Or mostly negative.
Again, I like that distinction.
You know what brings us closerto God and what drives us away.
You know changing behaviorversus changing the heart.
I think that's a reallyimportant distinction as well.
And you know, of course, whenwe were talking about this topic
, what kept coming to my mindwas from passages in the New
Testament where, for example,you know, the Apostle Paul was
(19:01):
talking about certainindiscretions.
He's hearing about the lettersof the church and he's saying
you know, this is how you shouldhandle it.
I'm thinking of the onespecific example I think it was
in Corinthians when the guy washaving an affair with his
mother-in-law, his mother-in-law, his father's wife, and you
know he's like.
I've already judged this.
You know we're turning him overto Satan in the sense of just
dealing with that.
Just dealing with that in thesense of you get the sense that,
(19:25):
of course, actions like thatare meant to draw them to
repentance, and so I don't know,based on what we've discussed,
if I would say that's just ahealthy form of guilt you know,
drawing them towards repentance,or if I would say that that
would be one category of shame,right, how much of it is
(19:45):
semantics and how much of it isbased on how a student is
choosing to define them.
Based on what you've said, Iwould say that's probably trying
to put an impression of ahealthy sense of guilt, to
acknowledge this and drive ittowards repentance.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
And I'm thinking about even the cultural church
today.
They would look at that andthey would say that's shaming,
that's not right, he shouldn'thave done that.
So we start to question thescriptures and we say, oh well,
if he's doing that, if you'reshaming people, I don't think
that's right.
So then we just disregardscripture itself.
So I think the way that yousaid it is it to bring that
(20:19):
person back to repentance, andit sounds like this guy has
probably already received themessage.
Hey, you know what you shouldn.
And it sounds like this guy hasprobably already received the
(20:40):
message.
Hey, you know what youshouldn't be doing this and you
still continue to.
Was shame involved in thatprocess?
So the question is did it bringthe person back to God or did
it push them away?
So I guess that's what we canlook at.
Is it healthy if it bringspeople back to God?
And I think the delivery makesa big difference.
But sometimes we don't getthings unless it's spoken to us
(21:01):
in a certain way, you know.
But also this aspect of shamingis seen in only a negative
light, where certain behaviorsand actions that people take are
justified.
For example, it could besomething as like abortion right
, don't shame the mother fordoing what she thinks is right
in her, in her eyes or for herown life.
(21:21):
It could be even this aspect ofdivorce.
Like you know, don't shamepeople who are going through
that when sometimes you kind ofneed to feel that it could be
the aspect of parenting or achild's bad behavior.
Right, it's not shaming, it'scorrecting something.
So maybe there's that aspectwho's applying the discipline or
who's addressing the issue andin what spirit are they?
(21:43):
Are they doing that?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Well, and I think that's important because it it's
like you said, it's not onlythe individuals who are doing
the reprimanding, the, you know,the shaming or whatever.
it is your audience, it's therelationship to that audience in
the context and the spirit inwhich it's done Right, and I'm
reminded I believe it was inPaul's letter to the Romans when
he was talking about judgingthose outside the church he said
(22:10):
.
He said I'm not talking aboutjudging those outside of the
church.
He's like you know, you'd haveto leave the earth entirely if
you had to talk about dealingwith people who are not in the
church and how that, how thatdynamic would play out.
He's talking about,specifically, individuals who
have the same commitments asChristians in Christ, and that
that does change things, becauseit's about having a uniform
(22:31):
witness to the world and,whether you call it shame or
guilt, this understanding thatthere is a place for that when,
as you said, it moves peopleback towards God.
That's what it's intended to doand we see examples of that, of
course, throughout scripture,where there are times and places
where there needs to beboundaries, there needs to be
reprimands, there needs to beadmonishment, and that's the
(22:53):
word you usually see inscriptures, but this sense of
admonishing not in thiscondescending better than you,
in a sense of humility and youknow Paul talks about that in a
spirit of humility andgentleness, moving towards this
sort of change because werecognize we ourselves are
sinners, but as members of thechurch we can say we are all
(23:16):
bound to the same rules and I'mnot going to hold you to a
different standard than I myselfwould be held.
And at the same time this, Ithink, kind of dips into another
topic that I think is very muchrelated, of how are we doing
church discipline?
Well, in that regard, and.
(23:36):
I would honestly say that bothmy time, you know, in the church
as a Christian but also as apastor, you know, leading church
ministries and stuff that hasbeen something I think is so
terribly lacking and teachingpastors and parishioners because
, like you said, we live in aculture now where any type of
(23:57):
healthy admonishment and holdingpeople to standards and that
that is, as you said, shame,that's inappropriate.
You shouldn't do that and youknow of course that was
consistent.
I mean, people wereexcommunicated from the church
all the time.
You know you commit a publicsin and if you want to be back
in the church, you make a publicconfession in front of everyone
Usually it was just a house,church or small group of people
(24:20):
and then that person was broughtback in.
And when you live a villagelife where everyone knows
everyone else's business, youcan imagine how that might
impact your day-to-day if yourfellow Christians no longer are
engaging.
This of course gets back intothe whole shame and guilt piece
there.
So I think that today becausewe can say well, I don't care if
(24:41):
you're going to try to admonishme because I'm cheating on my
taxes or I'm cheating on my wifeor whatever the case may be,
I'll just go to the church downthe road and they'll be happy to
have me and to have you knowwhatever money I throw in their
basket.
So we've kind of lost thatsense of accountability, we've
lost what healthy churchdiscipline looks like.
And I specifically say healthychurch discipline because we do
(25:03):
see lots of examples wherethere's unhealthy shame, where
there is this, you know, almostcultish mentality that can leave
people with a lot of spiritualburdens that then people like
you and I have to try to work,you know, help them work through
later in life.
So I'll just pause therebecause I can really I could go
off on a tangent.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
No, keep going, Keep going.
That's good, because I thinkwe're essentially getting to is
that there are these positiveimpacts of what shame does.
But it's the definition, it'show we define it.
The way that we're defining itin regards to how the church
handles discipline isaccountability, but people will
call accountability today asshaming.
(25:43):
So there is this aspect where Ithink we need to make that
difference, because God doeskeep us accountable.
So imagine you say to yourselfyou've tricked yourself into
thinking that accountabilityequals shaming.
Then, when God holds youaccountable, when your brothers
and sisters hold you accountable, when your pastor holds you
accountable, whatever the caseis, you're going to feel.
The natural inclination is tofeel ashamed, right, because
(26:04):
you're being called on something, the wrong thing, but you've
taken it on as an identity, likeit's a personal attack to you,
when what's being addressed isthe behavior.
So if we address the behavior,you can be called back to
repentance.
But we naturally, right, wenaturally are inclined to this
hiding component, right thatwhen Adam and Eve sinned, they
(26:25):
immediately ran and hid.
That's our natural instinct.
It's a natural inclination thatwe have whenever something is
wrong in our lives.
So we can see that in churchestoday, or maybe relationships
with other brothers and sistersin the church, where, when
something's being called out,you will feel ashamed.
So we're not talking aboutfeeling ashamed, we're talking
(26:45):
about being actually ashamed forsomething.
So, yeah, yeah, I think the waythat we describe accountability
today has been described asshaming I like how you brought
that full circle, by the way,back to jesus exactly oh yeah,
it takes me back.
It reminds me of of just howthat whole uh process started is
(27:07):
, um, yeah, shame is a.
It's a natural thing for us tofeel.
We naturally want to take onthe identity of something.
Remember, with mental health itwas um, there's now the more of
a comfort with it.
But your diagnosis, you kind ofwear it as a little tag right,
oh, I'm so-and-so and we were,we're proudly.
But when it comes to otherthings that we do, you know we
(27:29):
don't do that you know Well, andyou're talking about hiding,
you know, in the garden.
Speaker 2 (27:34):
But I mean, even today, like think about how
individualistic most of us arein the Western culture.
It's so easy to come and go ina church or even certain
Christian communities, be therea number for years and no one
even know your name.
Yeah, certain.
Christian communities, be theirmember for years and no one even
know your name or add to itanother level, the sense of like
the pastor, and the peoplearound me have no idea what I'm
(27:56):
doing in my life.
So, how can there be any senseof accountability, discipleship,
mentoring, anything like that,when we hold our cards so close
to our chest, when we are hidingfrom other people and you know,
of course, we might reveal to asmall little segment in our
life, maybe our families andeven that?
(28:18):
is so limited and people are somasterful in our culture here,
maybe not in all the cultureswhere it's a little bit more
communal, you know, and theymight be too much in each
other's lives.
Right, it's the other extreme.
Yeah, the other extreme, but Ithink you know, especially here
in America, Western Europe andother places where it is so easy
(28:41):
to just disappear and hide andhiding those aspects of
ourselves that either becausewe're afraid that there's going
to be a sense of shaming and Imight have a fragile sense of
myself to begin with and I don'tknow that I can handle any type
of critique and then alsothere's maybe this other side of
them that we might justify.
(29:01):
Well, I'm comparing myself.
I'm not, you know, as bad asthis person you know, insert
here whatever terribleindividual you want to insert.
And so I think that we have torecognize that that is not what
we're called to.
We're called to Christ-likeness.
We're called that's whatChristian means to be like
Christ.
So this idea that we, asChristian brothers and sisters,
(29:24):
can we, in a spirit of humilityand love, walk with each other,
you know, admonishing each other, supporting each other,
teaching each other, mentoringeach other, and that image of
the church, which is so clearlyspelled out as far as its
mission, is still shockinglylacking even in America, which
is the most Christian nation bynumbers.
(29:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
Yeah, so we don't get .
So it's almost like we'veallowed the culture to dictate
how we do accountability, whichis, don't get involved in
people's lives, because peopleget upset, you're not supposed
to mind your own business typeof thing, and um.
So for me you know, growing uphere but also having the latino,
latino background like for usit was like the smallest thing,
(30:06):
like you do one thing and thewhole church knows, and I hated
that.
Like you just felt the shame,right, you felt it.
You're like oh great, you know,pastor knows about this, or now
so-and-so knows about this.
So there is that aspect where Idesired more independence, like
maybe you don't need to knoweverything about my life, maybe
I'll just keep more things tomyself.
And then there's the other sidewhere that's all they've known.
Like why are you gettinginvolved in my life?
(30:34):
Like this is not right.
But we look at scripture.
Oh, maybe it is.
Maybe there's a healthy way toactually address these things
that's going on in my life.
So, depending on where you'recoming from, if you're coming
from an individualistic culture,you probably want to focus more
on what does a community,healthy community look like?
And if you're from acollectivistic culture, what
does it look like to walk out myfaith in Christ on my own.
In the sense of that, I'mcommunicating with God, but he
(30:57):
uses people in your life.
So I mean it's.
I think being a Christian, it'snaturally ingrained that you're
going to be in community.
Would that be a fair statement?
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, we're definitely created for community
.
That's definitely one of thegoals.
And you know that's hard for meto say because I'm a fierce
introvert, and yet, you know,even if I can say no, no, that's
an essential component of whatit is to be a Christian.
You know, and even youdescribing your upbringing of
(31:27):
being in a very communal spirit,community in the sense of
everyone knows your business,and I hear you talk about it
with frustration in your voicelike this.
It's like that's not a pleasantexperience, and yet I have to
believe that if everyone hasgone through that in that
community, that, yeah, youpromote a community that would
(31:49):
also be very hesitant to becometoo prideful yeah because
everyone can reference mistakesthat they know others have made,
and say hold on now, I rememberlast year, or you know that's
true yeah, and so it would keepeveryone humble I was that's
true accountability, trueaccountability, yeah, and you
know there's a there's thislingering record.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
You know by the community that no one can like
stand above others and say thatthey're better in some way and
and you know, and to that thoughI think it would it would
emphasize more the behaviors,because then it would in some
sense at least the way that Iexperienced it was it helped,
help me or moved me to keep somestuff to myself and not share
everything because I didn't wantthat to be known.
(32:28):
Well, my behavior was on Like itwas whatever was required of me
.
I did so in that sense, butthat could be more of a heart
issue.
I don't know if that'snecessarily a community issue
necessarily, but more of a heartissue, like, should I be open
with just things that I'mwrestling with?
So, again, going back to theempathy point, do people
understand what I'm going to begoing through?
(32:48):
If I share this struggle, dopeople understand it and can
they guide me in a way that'sbeneficial, that draws me closer
to Christ?
And again, those areopportunities where we reflect
Christ, all the one another's.
This speaks to this aspect ofcommunity.
You can't love one another ifyou're not being around one
another, right.
So there is this aspect likecommunity is ingrained into the
(33:12):
Christian walk, and that makesthe end of the New Testament.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, and I think that in that case that you're
describing, you do have to havekind of concentric circles of
social connectedness.
You're going to have thosecloser to you that are going to
be your confidants, your family,you know, people that you can
trust.
And then you might, you know,in the wider communities, have
maybe other peripheral people inthe church that you know and
but maybe you wouldn'tnecessarily divulge your deepest
secrets to.
(33:35):
They haven't earned that levelof trust yet.
You don't know them that well.
Now, of course, those arethings that I would say.
In matters where it's personalstruggles and sins, then you
would just stick with yourconcentric circles, but still
having social support to wrestlewith those things.
But I'm thinking more like incases where there's a public sin
that, as you said, just kind ofgets around the community, and
(33:57):
in those cases, of course, Ithink then you know some sense
of public confession, publicadmonishment, publishing or a
public change to where you,because then it's also a model
for other people, like you know,look, you make a mistake.
We're going gonna hold eachother accountable in a sense of
spirit, in a spirit of humilityand love, as paul talks about,
(34:18):
and yet being fully restored andmoving on and the next week
it'll be someone else.
Yeah that's a good point, thatis something that people can see
I think that it'll give us anappropriate and healthy sense of
transparency when it'sappropriate in communal context,
but I think also balancing that, like you said, maybe not
(34:38):
everything that I struggle withif it's not a public sin it's
something I personally strugglewith, then I need to prayerfully
take that to God.
I'm going to have people in mylife that you know are my
confessors and that I take to.
You know, like we talked aboutbefore, maybe older men in my
life and I would say you know,for a male it would need to be a
man.
You know you don't want thingslike that to grow into some type
(34:59):
of emotional connection.
That's unhealthy.
But you know, having thosementors and hopefully they have
mentors and so on and so forth,we can pass that on, and
hopefully they have mentors andso on and so forth we can pass
that
Speaker 1 (35:10):
on.
Yeah, I'm curious to how peopleshould interpret I want to say
it's in James or Peter thisaspect of confessing your sins
one to another, and you kind oftouched on it right now.
Like there was a time, I wouldsay maybe four or five years ago
, where a lot of people would goon their social media and they
would share the most vulnerablethings about their lives like
(35:31):
super vulnerable.
And I was, I was thinking tomyself I'm like this is not
healthy because you're sharingdeep personal things with people
who don't know you.
So there's a sense of ofcatharsis in that process, like
I'm releasing all of thisinformation but at the same time
, you don't know these people.
And to your point about kind ofkeeping within the concentric
(35:53):
circles, is you have to havepeople that you trust?
If those people that you trust,what you're also trusting is
that they're not going to sharethat information with everyone
else, right.
But if you're sharing it, thisaspect of confessing your sins
one to another, I think somepeople have misinterpreted that
and feel like they need to sharewith everyone.
So they take that approach andsay, well, you know, I'm
wrestling with this and again,it could be something that you
(36:15):
can talk with those people whoare actually involved in your
life, like I don't feelcomfortable sharing something
that I'm wrestling with withsomeone that's not involved in
my life.
That doesn't make sense either,right?
So the shame can grow in thosecircles where you don't feel
safe.
You don't feel like you cantrust the people that you're
talking to.
That's why that circle isalways smaller.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, and people who would share things on social
media like you described.
From a psychologicalperspective, we would say those
people have loose boundaries.
It's the individual who getsinto an elevator or sits next to
you on the bus and, before youget off, another whole life
story and you're like I did notask you this and yet they want
to tell you everything aboutthem.
Yeah, that's someone who but?
why?
Why?
I wonder why they do that.
(36:56):
I think it comes from adesperate need.
All people desire to know andbe known.
I think you know, as you saidearlier, we are created for
community, and when people havea desperate lacking of that in
their lives, or maybe they havea history where they don't feel
seen, in some ways, there is anaspect of their personality that
will sometimes grab the wheelof you know, control and do
(37:21):
things like that, I'm going tothrow caution to the wind.
I'm going to put the mostvulnerable things about myself
out there for the whole world tosee.
That, I would say, is even moreextreme than, of course, the
person in the elevator, theperson on the bus, and you don't
know how that ripple effect isgoing to come back around to
harm them.
I think they could be settingthemselves up to be hurt because
(37:42):
typically someone who would dothat now I realize I'm making a
sweeping generalization here Ifsomeone wants to be known that
badly that they're going to putsuch a bunch of stuff out there.
I would imagine they're alsoquite sensitive to feedback and
someone using that against them.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
And increased shame.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Exactly, they're not going to have the resilience to
deal with the blowback on them.
So I would say that, first ofall, in action in itself is not
healthy, but also what it couldreap will be unhealthy as well.
The ideal you know.
Getting back to what we'resaying about, if you have
personal struggles, if you havethings in your life, as we all
(38:20):
do, that are going to be chronicsins, things that you know to
use a metaphor from early churchthey talk about.
You know early sins and thingsthat we commit kind of like a
spider web.
You know early sins and thingsthat we commit kind of like a
spider web.
You know start to wrap around usand they're easily broken.
But if we don't address them,then over time it becomes like
twine and it becomes like rope,and then it becomes like chains,
(38:41):
and before long we realize thatit's very difficult to break
these bindings, because it'sbecome so chronic in our
habitual nature that we do haveto find something outside of
ourselves, of course with God.
But it requires thatvulnerability of confessing our
sins to other people, and so Ithink that's why, when we read
(39:01):
about that in the New Testament,it is really uncomfortable to
go to someone else and say well,my brother or sister in Christ,
here is where I am fallingshort, here's where I'm missing
the mark.
And to be able to do that in aspirit of transparency with
someone you trust and someoneyou know will use that
information to your benefit andhelp keep you accountable, but
(39:26):
also recognize that what youknow, what you're sharing with
them, is sacred.
Yeah.
And being able to hold thatconfidence, but I think that
that I have seen is notsomething that we are
necessarily doing as well as Iwould like because, and I only
say that based on our anecdotalevidence of working with college
(39:48):
students.
As you said before, they haveall this access to social media
and yet no other generation hasexpressed feelings alone as they
do.
Yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
It's a really good point.
I think it just feels good toyour point.
I think that was wanting to beknown, so they share everything
out there and only the peoplewho latch onto the hook are the
ones that make it into thatcircle and even then it's still
such a big circle that you stilldon't feel known Like that's
the that.
I think that's the reality ofsocial media is that you think
(40:20):
you're being known or you wantto be known by all of these
people, whatever 500,000 friendsthat you have.
That you think and then reallyonly two people respond.
Three people respond and you'rethinking to yourself even more
lonely than what you initiallythought would draw people in to
ask you about you, to do thesethings.
And yeah, it's really sad.
(40:40):
You're right, the feeling ofloneliness is due to not being
known.
But we have our churches and wehave our communities.
I'm a big fan of picking one,two or three people, just three
people that you can trust, keepthem in that circle and share
with them.
Right, and obviously there's ahistory behind that.
You've seen them be there foryou through numerous times.
So we're not saying completelyclose up so you don't feel shame
(41:02):
, and we're not saying just openup to increase your shame.
We're saying be selective aboutthis process, be wise about
this process and choosing peoplewho can help you manage that
Right.
Speaker 2 (41:14):
Yeah, and I would add to it, because this is
something I see a lot as well,is don't give up on the concept
because someone has let you down.
Yeah.
Right.
I mean, how many people have uh, I, I mean, I personally know a
lot of people who would say,well, I've, I've written off
that idea of community and Idon't attend church anymore
because this one instanceoccurred.
(41:35):
And this one person said or didthis and it upset me, so I don't
go to church anymore.
And the same thing on a moreindividualistic level.
You know I confided in thisperson and they broke my
confidence.
So I don't tell people aboutthis stuff anymore.
I don't tell people about thisstuff anymore, Don't let the
(41:58):
exception, change what has beenan honored and important
teaching of the church that havebeen passed down to us over the
centuries, and this idea ofhealthy, vulnerable transparency
with people who can be trusted.
Every single person that weselect as mentors and confessors
in our lives are not going toturn around and try to inflict
unhealthy shame on us or thatthey're not going to break our
confidence.
No, sadly that's going to happenoccasionally and you know we
(42:20):
just we kind of live and learnand move on and hopefully God
can use that difficult event tobring something positive out of
it.
And you know it helps us growin resilience as well to face
those kinds of challenges.
But you know that wholeexpression of throwing the baby
out with the bathwater theconcept itself is solid and it's
necessary and the alternativeis isolation.
Speaker 1 (42:41):
Yeah, yeah, which which with time will increase
one's shame, because now youstart to believe that you're not
really wanted by other peopleor by God.
So we usually, I guess, filterour relationship with God
through the people in our liveswho call themselves Christians.
Right, we say, well, thisperson's a Christian, they don't
treat me that way, thisperson's a Christian.
(43:02):
The pastor says this orso-and-so, and they're not the
same.
God is not us, he's perfect, heis present, he is good.
So he desires those things forus and he provides that through,
oftentimes through the church.
So I do feel sad for those whohave experienced negative or had
(43:23):
negative experiences in thechurch, but don't let that push
you away from God Again.
The healthy shame is going tobe this acknowledgement of I've
taken on a wrong identity,that's not who I am in Christ.
So that should draw you back toGod, back to his word, back to
prayer, back to community, inorder to restore that
relationship, anything thatpushes you in the opposite
direction.
And again, look at your, notjust your behaviors, but also
(43:45):
your heart.
Where is it leading you towards?
Because you can numb shame,there could be something that
you should feel ashamed, and youcan numb that and then feel
nothing.
And then now, when you sin,you're just like, oh, it's
nothing.
We slowly numb ourselves to theimpact of sin in our lives.
Speaker 2 (44:05):
Yeah, we can certainly inoculate ourselves
and, like you said, to the pointthat we are not shaken in the
way that we should about certainbehaviors.
And you know I should probablymention this.
We're talking about confessionand we're talking about shame
and things like that, and Iacknowledge that it's going to
be based on somebody'supbringing or culture, which we
already kind of talked about aswell, but also their particular
(44:25):
denomination, because ifsomeone's coming from, like an
Eastern Orthodox or RomanCatholic or Lutheran Anglican,
all those traditions that I justnamed, there is historically in
those traditions theunderstanding that someone
should confess to their pastor,and I think that if that someone
feels that they have a goodrelationship with their pastor
(44:45):
or like, depending on the sizeof the church, they even have
access to a pastor.
I know many people you know overhere, here at the university.
They go to these parishes orthese you know different
non-denominational churches.
There's thousands of people andit's like well, I'm lucky to
get like the assistant pastor'sassistant.
Yeah, it's really not going toget to the pastor yeah and so
you have to kind of gauge thatand keep that in mind If you
(45:08):
have a good relationship withyour pastor, as the individual
who is the God-ordained shepherdof that community and, just
like a father of a household,has a sense of responsibility to
God and will be answerable toGod on the day of judgment for
how he led his flock.
And so I think, if that is apossibility, I would certainly
(45:28):
encourage someone to have theirpastor as a confessor, and I
also recognize that that canmake it even more difficult
because they don't want theirpastors seeing them in a
negative light.
And now would I say that youshould be your only confessor?
No, of course not.
And would I say that there'sexamples of pastors who will use
(45:49):
unhealthy shame on the membersof their community, absolutely,
and I would say, if that's thecase, then that person should
not be within that concentriccircle closest to you.
They have to, you know theyhave to by their rank and by how
they've earned it warrant usgoing to them to disclose those
(46:09):
things.
And when I say rank, I don'tmean just because someone is a
pastor or a priest or a bishopor something like that.
That in itself ideally putsthem in a place where they have
been trained and experienced todo this well, but it's not
always the case and I have foundthat some of the most gentle,
loving, wonderful people to beconfessors in our lives are
(46:34):
individuals who have little tono formal education in religion,
but they've got experience andthey have taken their
sanctification process seriouslyand how they've grown as
Christians themselves.
Essentially, you want to havesomeone that you can go to
confess to, someone that youwant to grow into.
Someone that you say, like Paulsays follow me, as I follow
(46:55):
Christ.
Yeah, yeah.
And so we want to seek outthose people.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
And I know I know we talked about this in an earlier
episode but how they um thepeople that you're wanting to to
learn how to trust is how theyhandle suffering too.
Right.
I think that's a big part of it, because part of the christian
life is that you will havetribulation.
So how did those people thatyou're wanting to connect with,
(47:21):
how did they handle suffering?
Because that then gives you theopportunity to see okay, they
handled that in a way that Iwant to reflect Christ.
That's one.
But secondly, it's going toremove the shame from knowing
that you feel like you've messedup or feel like you've done
(47:42):
something wrong, and still yousee people pushing forward and I
think that's been encouragementto me of people in tough times
that they realize or accept.
You know I could have donethings different or I did mess
up, and I'm moving forward inthis direction and that, for me,
has been an encouragement too.
So, seeing people suffer, aspainful as it is to go through
that process, seeing them, it'salways good to see how God is
(48:03):
able to restore thatrelationship.
Speaker 2 (48:07):
Yeah, you know, there's a quote that I remember
from when I was in the militaryand I tell the interns and even
clients sometimes, you know, andI I remember it because it's
just, it's something that I havefound later in life applies to
the spiritual life as well andit was written on the dorms of,
you know, military barracks.
It was written on the wall.
They said sweat more in peace,bleed less in war I love that
(48:28):
quote.
Yep, oh yeah, I love it more inpeace bleed, less in war and so
kind of.
On this topic you're talkingabout of suffering and other
things and shame individuals whoare, as I mentioned before,
really taking thatsanctification process seriously
.
They've experienced loss.
They've experienced you knowtheir own struggles.
They they've had both good andbad confessors.
They've talked about thesethings and know what it is to
(48:49):
experience healthy guilt, andmaybe you know shame unhealthy
shame or positive shame as welland by their practicing these
things, when struggles, whensuffering, when these things
come, they're well prepared forit, just like a soldier who
would train hard, or an athlete,a musician when you practice
(49:10):
hard, you're training hard sothat when the time for to put it
to the test, you're ready and Ithink that gets you know.
We've talked about spiritualdisciplines.
We've talked about these us inthe way that god intended for us
(49:36):
to have mentors admonish us andkeep us honest and aware, but
also, at the same time, not tobreak us down yeah, yeah, I
think you referenced thatearlier.
Speaker 1 (49:47):
I think, uh, I think galatians 6, where it talks
about those of you who are moremature in the faith, something
to the effect of confront thosewho are weaker in the faith and
build them up, but then afterthat it says bear you one of
those burdens and so fulfill thelaw of Christ.
So there is that aspect is thatwhen something is confronted,
that person is also willing towalk with you as you reach
(50:08):
restoration.
So those are good things tokeep in mind.
Shame is a very real thing andit's a very deep, deep feeling.
It's a bad feeling, but one ofthe ways that you want to
distinguish from it is is itpushing you closer to God or is
it pulling you away?
And when people implementcertain practices to shame you
(50:32):
about something, see, is thisconviction or is this me wanting
to pull away from God, wantingto hide?
So it takes a lot ofself-awareness and
self-reflection to be able toknow that.
So if you haven't done that,it's going to be more difficult.
Speaker 2 (50:46):
I think.
Speaker 1 (50:46):
But if you have a good sense of awareness, if
you're allowing the spirit tolead you, I think you'll be able
to tell the difference betweenthose two.
You can't experience shameunless you've experienced guilt.
Right Guilt says something waswrong.
Shame is I am or I become thatthing and therefore God can't
love me, he can't reach me orothers can't be around.
Speaker 2 (51:06):
So yeah, and to jump off of what you said about this
idea even if people say thingsthat prompt a strong reaction
within us, do we have thewherewithal to say is there any
truth to what they say?
Speaker 1 (51:19):
Yeah, good point.
Speaker 2 (51:20):
Yeah, and that can be difficult to do.
I think it takes an emotionallymature, spiritually mature
person to say, oh, that reallytriggered me at the same time,
maybe the things are triggeringme.
Triggering in me are the verythings that I need to work on
and you know this idea of kindof looking at that and I hope,
if the listeners take nothingaway from today, just this idea
(51:40):
that we've come back aroundagain and again, is we live in a
culture that says any form, anyfeelings of guilt, any sense?
Of shame is negative.
It's all couched in this kind ofnegative light and that is
often the message that we hear.
And yet we see the Christianwitness and in scriptures and
throughout the history of thechurch, is this, you know, idea
that no, there is a place for it.
(52:02):
You know there is a healthy waythat that can look in our lives
and, in a sense, as long as it'scoming from people who love us
and it's coming from a placewithin ourselves that we can say
this is going to help me growand I have an accountability,
not just to myself, myrelationship to God, but to my
Christian community, what Irepresent in the world and you
(52:24):
know, no man is an island in thesense that, like people look at
me and they're going to thinkof the church because I proclaim
that I'm a Christian, and so inthat sense, my actions bear
witness to the faith in general,and so I have an obligation to
reflect that in my life, and soother people in the community
who share the same beliefs as Ido.
(52:44):
We have accountability to oneanother and a responsibility to
one another.
Yeah.
To build each other up andencourage each other yes.
One another yeah.
To build each other up andencourage each other yes, but
also to call each other yeah onour failures and to say hey,
that's not what we're about,that's not what we represent,
and to be there to walk with usthrough that transition yeah,
(53:05):
you, us feeling bad aboutsomething that someone says to
us is not a good indicator ofwhether or not it was healthy or
not right, because we feel badabout, you know, dumb things.
Speaker 1 (53:16):
Sometimes Someone could look at us a certain way
and we feel rejected, you know.
So the way that we feel is nota good indicator of whether or
not it's healthy or unhealthy.
It's what is it pushing youtowards?
Right?
You're coping right.
If you have a situation thatmade you feel bad and you turn
to a vice, then that's probablynot a good, healthy way of
coping.
(53:36):
But if it pushes you to talk toa friend or a close brother or
sister in Christ, then that's abetter way of coping.
So, kind of, look for thosethings as you think about shame.
Right, you're going to feel bad.
It's a natural inclination whensomeone says something that we
don't agree with or that wedon't like.
But the actual measure of it isis it drawing you closer to
(53:57):
Christ, closer to the Christiancommunity, or is it pulling you
away from that?
And I think if we do that, wewill be able to deal with shame
in a healthier way.
This was a good conversation.
Yeah, way, this was a goodconversation.
Yeah, I didn't know, notscripted.
We didn't know where we'regoing.
We just ended up here and itsounded like a great job, so
we'll see.
Oh, so I shouldn't have beenreading that off the wall.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
No, I had no idea where you were going with this
tonight, but I think we got intoa lot of very uh adjacent
topics that very much inform thetopic of guilt and shame.
You know whether it's uh.
You know church discipline orhow we deal with our own
personal lives and mentors andpeople.
We seek out.
Speaker 1 (54:32):
Yeah, and I think that's what you mentioned about
the cultural piece too.
Oh yeah, that was important.
Speaker 2 (54:36):
Yeah, because I think that a lot of people, even
outside the church, willexperience a sense of shame and
what that looks like, even ifthey're not religious
necessarily.
But I do agree with you that thepenultimate experience of what
that's meant to be is mostbeautifully seen in the church,
in the sense that God might usethese things to draw us back to
him, and whether that'ssuffering in a community that's,
(54:58):
you know, exiled us, because weare doing something that's
outside of the pale of what itis to be a Christian, or because
, you know, we recognize withinourselves that we're struggling
with certain things and, insteadof hiding and come back again
to the genesis example, uh, thatwe have to be transparent with
the right people, yeah, who willhelp get us back on the path no
(55:22):
, I think.
Speaker 1 (55:23):
Um, I think we covered all the questions that
came up and I hope that this isa blessing to you guys.
Thank you for tuning in.
You know I want to do anepisode where you guys can send
in some questions.
I haven't done that yet, butsend in some questions and try
to answer them and I'll say hey,you know, here's a question
that's come up.
Shame is one that often we seein counseling, especially for
(55:44):
those who grew up in the church,but yeah, so I think that's
where this whole episode isgoing to go.
Brother, appreciate you, thanksfor doing the episode and we
look forward to seeing you nexttime.
Take care, guys.
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